What happens after you finally admit the grind stopped working? That is where part two of this conversation with journalist Lindsay Crouse picks up.

Lindsay and JP dig into the physical cost of never backing off, talk through Simone Biles' 2021 Olympic decision, and unpack the "never enough" trap that keeps high achievers chasing a finish line that keeps moving. Lindsay also shares why she left a stable job for an uncertain one at The New York Times, and why she believes quitting is a muscle you build through practice, not a moment you arrive at with total certainty.

If part one left you rethinking what perseverance actually costs, this episode gives you a way to start putting it into practice.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"Our culture teaches us that quitting is a failure, that we didn't try hard enough. But quitting can be the first step to something better."
Lindsay Crouse

"I think about some of the people I respect a lot. They've quit things, and I've really respected them for how they quit and the reasons why they quit."
JP Nerbun

"You just have to build this muscle around quitting. That's really the only way that we can grow."
Lindsay Crouse

Q1: What's one situation where you're pushing an athlete, or yourself, toward more, when the data or the body is already telling you it's time to pull back?

Q2: If quitting is a muscle, when's the last time you actually practiced it, on purpose, in something small?

The Case for Quitting by Lindsay Crouse
A 15 year New York Times veteran makes the research-backed case that stepping back is often the braver, smarter choice than pushing through.
Find the book here

• Your Mind Lies About Your Limits, Your Body Doesn't
• Simone Biles Didn't Quit, She Read the Information
• Define "Enough" Before the Season Starts, Not During It
• Separate What You Want From What You Need
• Quitting Gets Easier With Practice, Not Certainty
• The Traits That Made You Good Don't Disappear When You Walk Away

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

"Quit" might be the most forbidden word in sports. Journalist Lindsay Crouse says that's exactly the problem.

Lindsay spent 15 years at The New York Times covering the extremes of human performance before turning the question on herself: what if the constant pushing through wasn't actually working? Her new book, The Case for Quitting, argues that stepping back is often the smarter, braver choice, not the weaker one. Lindsay and JP unpack why our brains default to staying on a path long after it stops serving us, and how Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile only after he stopped training entirely for three days.

This one is for any coach who has ever told an athlete to push through pain that wasn't actually productive, and for any coach who has done the same thing to themselves.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"Quitting is not simply a failure of resolve or an easy way out. Often it's a courageous first step to something better."
Lindsay Crouse

"Our brains prefer not to decide. They prefer to slide, to continue down the path we're already on."
Lindsay Crouse

"My identity wasn't even just a basketball player. My identity was the guy who had this dream."
JP Nerbun

Q1: Where in your season are you "sliding" instead of deciding, just because it's the path you already know?

Q2: If you set a deadline to reassess one commitment on your team right now, what would that deadline be, and what would make you actually keep it?

The Case for Quitting by Lindsay Crouse
A 15 year New York Times veteran makes the research-backed case that stepping back is often the braver, smarter choice than pushing through.
Find the book here

• Perseverance Is Not the Same Thing as Success
• Staying Is a Decision, Not a Default
• Set a Deadline Before You Start
• We Regret the Roads We Never Tried, Not the Ones We Left
• Rest Isn't the Absence of Discipline, It's a Tool
• You Don't Leave Your Strengths Behind When You Quit Something

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Are your three closest teammates a friend group, or a clique the rest of the roster feels shut out of?

JP Nerbun, Betsy Butterick, and Nate Sanderson dig into Level 4 leadership this week: the real difference between a clique and a close friend group, why almost no team builds a genuine culture of honest feedback, and Betsy's own story as a Division I captain who left a program midseason.

Whether you are trying to break up an unhealthy clique or support a player through a transfer decision, this conversation will change how you think about what it takes to lead a team.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"We make it out to be this perseverance: drive hard, sit at the end of the bench, put up with a tough coach, and get through it all. We glorify that to an extent that's probably not healthy."
- J.P. Nerbun

"We're really good at judging on the back end, and we're really bad at counting the cost on the front end."
- Nate Sanderson

"The quitting part was about being a good teammate to myself. That was the first time in my life I can remember putting myself before the team."
- Betsy Butterick

Q1: When was the last time you gave a teammate honest feedback even though it felt uncomfortable? What stopped you the times you didn't?

Q2: If you're in a tight group of friends on this team, are you making sure everyone else always has an open door in, too?

The Culture Captain by JP Nerbun
This episode draws on the book's final chapter, leading from the bench, and the stories of athletes like Abby Wambach and Tom Brady who led without always starting. Comes with a free field guide.
Visit culturecaptain.net here

• A tight friend group isn't automatically a toxic clique
• Every athlete doesn't need to feel close to every teammate, just to someone
• Most teams don't have a culture of feedback, they have one or two truth-tellers
• Give players a script for feedback and it's still excruciating, and that's normal
• We're good at judging quitting after the fact and bad at examining the cost before it
• Quitting can be the most self-respecting decision a captain ever makes

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Most coaches have someone they pour into. Almost none of them have someone who pours back.

In part two with Zach Brandon, JP and Zach go deeper into what it actually takes to develop coaches — not players, coaches — and why that investment may be the most overlooked lever in any program. Zach shares the story that reoriented his entire career: a coach who could not remember his own family moments and discovered he was missing from most of the photos on the wall. The conversation builds into his core coaching framework — Impact = Individual Capabilities x Environment, minus Interference — and why the internal interference is almost always the harder, more important work.

This one is for any coach who suspects they might be their own biggest obstacle, or who has never stopped long enough to ask: who is developing me?

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to this episode's most actionable ideas.

"Expectations are oftentimes funneled one directionally. Agreements are shared — it's like, hey, we're on the same page and we're both giving the green light to what this looks like in action."
— Zach Brandon

"Who pours into you? You're the person that pours into everybody else as a coach or as a leader. And yet, do you have anyone for yourself?"
— Zach Brandon

"You can't read the label from inside the jar."
— Zach Brandon

Q1: Think about one standard you currently enforce with your team. Did your athletes or staff help create it? If not, what would it look like to move from expectation to shared agreement this week?

Q2: Who pours into you? Name one person in your life who serves as a genuine thought partner for your own growth. If you can't name one, what would it take to find one?

Winning with Words — newsletter by Zach Brandon
Principles, stories, and mindset shifts to help coaches and leaders win more while living better. Zach also offers a free initial coaching call for anyone exploring what is getting in their way.
Visit zachbrandoncoaching.com

• Shared agreements beat handed-down expectations
• The best coach development happens inside time you already have
• Who pours into the coach?
• Coach wellbeing is a player development strategy
• Your impact has an equation: capabilities x environment, minus interference
• You cannot read the label from inside the jar

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Zach Brandon spent years inside one of the most pressure-filled environments in professional sports. The biggest thing he took away was not about performance. It was about connection.

In this first conversation with Zach, JP sits down with the former Head of Mental Performance and Coach Development for the Arizona Diamondbacks, on staff during their 2023 World Series run, to explore what he learned about servant leadership, building genuine relationships across a roster, and the principle most leaders quietly overlook: go see the work. Zach and JP also get honest about the cost of diluted focus and why an overused strength can quietly become your biggest limitation.

This one is for any coach who has felt spread too thin, wondered whether athletes really trust them, or needed a reminder that the most powerful question you can ask is: what do you need from me today?

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to this episode's most actionable ideas.

"I got a lot better as a leader when I showed up every day from a space of like, hey, how can I serve you?"
— Zach Brandon

"Diluted focus produces diluted results."
— Zach Brandon

"Letting each person you come into contact with be the expert on themselves — and allowing them to share their expertise."
— Zach Brandon

Q1: If you rated your relationship with every athlete on your roster from 1 to 5, where are the gaps — and what is one move you could make this week to close the most important one?

Q2: When is the last time you asked one of your athletes for advice? How might doing that more intentionally change the dynamic in your program?

Win More, Live Better — podcast by Zach Brandon
One of JP's handful of go-to podcast subscriptions. The episode featuring former Washington football coach Chris Peterson is the one that first caught JP's attention. Find it and all of Zach's work at zachbrandoncoaching.com.
Visit zachbrandoncoaching.com

• Servant leadership is a daily choice, not a personality trait
• You cannot build deep connection without a system
• Asking for advice builds more trust than giving it
• Diluted focus produces diluted results
• Go see the work
• An overused strength becomes a limitation

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Every coach says they want more leaders. But most are picturing the wrong level entirely.

JP Nerbun, Betsy Butterick, and Nate Sanderson unpack Level 3 leadership, the one-to-one relational work that has to exist before Level 4 (leading the whole team) ever works, including the Joey Votto story of a star player who took up Spanish and improv classes just to become a better teammate.

Whether you've got a team full of quiet glue players or you're still waiting for someone to step up, this conversation will change how you look for leadership on your roster.

Chapters(00:00) Intro

(02:35) Level 3 vs Level 4, defined

(08:33) Leading a team vs leading people

(10:42) The glue player nobody calls a leader

(15:19) When leadership feels inauthentic

(20:15) The soup metaphor

(23:26) Skip the template, find the belief

(32:18) What coaches get wrong on calling out

(36:49) Walk your own talk first

(39:58) The six parts of Level 3

(42:29) Reframing fear before hard talks

(45:54) Four beliefs that block feedback

TOC 3-2-1

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"The problem with hard conversations isn't not knowing the template. The problem is the belief system that gets in the way of actually changing the behavior."
- J.P. Nerbun

"One group calls it 'called out.' The other group calls the exact same thing, a coach stopping practice to single out an athlete, 'called up.' It depends on the relationship."
- Betsy Butterick

"Rizzo said he got called out by Ross more than a few times, and every single time he walked away feeling like the guy loved him."
- Nate Sanderson

2 Questions for Your Team

Q1: On a scale of 1 to 10, how comfortable are you calling out a teammate when they're below the standard? What belief is keeping you from a 10?

Q2: Think of one teammate you'd call out without hesitation, and one you wouldn't. What's actually different about those two relationships?

1 Resource to Go Deeper

The Culture Captain by JP Nerbun
The book behind this episode's framework, breaking down the four levels of leadership from knowing yourself to leading the whole team.
Visit tocculture.com here

Key Takeaways

• Level three is the leadership skill coaches actually need, not level four
• Being a great teammate makes you a better performer, not a distraction from it
• Don't let "that's just who I am" become the end of the conversation
• Calling out and calling up are often the exact same behavior
• Most athletes aren't missing a script, they're stuck on a belief
• The best challengers spend the other fifty-one weeks building connections

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Dr. Jody Carrington says the most vulnerable emotion on the planet is not fear or grief. It is joy.

In part two of her conversation with JP, Dr. Jody Carrington gets specific about what it means to regulate yourself before you can lead anyone else, why joy requires every defense to be down, and why she collects information before she directs a hard conversation.

This one is for any coach who has ever felt calm on paper but tight in the jaw, and who wants tools that work in the middle of practice, not just in theory.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"The most important people you work for are the ones you go home to."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

"The most vulnerable emotion on the planet is joy."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

"Collect and then direct. It's not if I'm going to give that feedback, it's when."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

Q1: Where in your day is your jaw locked and your shoulders up before you ever set foot in front of your team, and what would it look like to drop them on purpose before you walk in?

Q2: Which two players are you not building a real relationship with right now, and what is one specific thing you could learn about them this week?

Dr. Jody Carrington
Free videos, articles, and tools built around the same ideas she unpacked in this episode: regulation, connection, and showing up as your best self before you lead anyone else.
Visit drjodycarrington.com here

• Regulate Yourself Before You Coach Anyone Else
• The People You Work For Are the Ones You Go Home To
• Ask What Happened, Not What's Wrong
• Joy Is the Most Vulnerable Emotion on a Team
• Collect Before You Direct
• Relationships With Parents Cut the Battle in Half

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

If the big people aren't okay, the little people don't stand a chance. That is the idea psychologist Dr. Jody Carrington has built her career on, and it flips the entire athlete development conversation on its head.

In part one of this two part conversation, JP sits down with Dr. Jody Carrington, a clinical psychologist and founder of Carrington and Company who has spent decades studying emotional regulation in high pressure environments, from a locked psychiatric unit to elite sports organizations. She unpacks why the coach's own nervous system sets the ceiling for the team's, and why the answer to a dysregulated athlete is never more yelling.

Whether you coach with intensity or with quiet steadiness, this episode will change how you think about the person running the room, not just the players in it.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"If the big people aren't okay, the little people don't stand a chance."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

"You don't lose your ability to be great. You don't lose the best golf swing you've ever taken in your life. You lose access to it."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

"We have to collect before we direct."
- Dr. Jody Carrington

Q1: Where in your program are you investing in athlete performance but not in your own emotional regulation as a coach?

Q2: Think of the last time you corrected an athlete in the moment. Had you collected enough relationship first for that correction to land?

Dr. Jody Carrington's Books, Podcast, and Resources
Her ongoing work on emotional regulation, connection, and leadership under pressure goes deeper into everything covered in this episode.
Visit drjodycarrington.com here

• Coach Regulation Is the Missing Variable in Athlete Development
• You Cannot Learn With Your Lid Flipped
• Collect Before You Direct
• Intensity Isn't the Problem, Timing Is
• Your Nervous System Gets Hijacked Before You Even Get Out of Bed
• Coaching Is Development Work, Not Just Performance Work

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Is your best leader always your best teammate? JP Nerbun, Betsy Butterick, and Nate Sanderson are not so sure, and the answer says a lot about how you build culture this season.

This episode continues an ongoing conversation around JP's new book, The Culture Captain, with the group digging into Level Two: leading yourself before you ever try to lead anyone else. They unpack why the chapter on effort was the hardest one JP wrote, what separates a Steph Curry from a Caitlin Clark on the leader versus teammate question, and why so many athletes hold back effort out of fear of being labeled a tryhard.

Whether you are coaching the most obsessed competitor on your roster or the kid who just wants to enjoy the sport, this conversation will change how you think about effort, identity, and what it actually takes to lead yourself first.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"Two things can be true. I can uphold the standard and it increases the value or the connection with my teammate."
- Betsy Butterick

"My performance does not determine my worth or value in this world."
- Nate Sanderson

"It's not any single leadership behavior that unlocks leading yourself. It's putting in the work on ourselves, knowing that this is a lifelong journey."
- JP Nerbun

Q1: When you rate your own effort this season, are you rating it the way your teammates and coaches would, or the way you wish they would?

Q2: Is there a part of this season where you are telling yourself a victim story? What is one choice you actually have right now?

The Culture Captain by JP Nerbun
JP's newly launched book breaks leadership into three levels: knowing yourself, leading yourself, and leading others. This episode digs into Level Two, covering responsibility, effort, authenticity, compete, mental fitness, and selflessness.
Visit tocculture.com here

• Leading yourself is not a formula. It is a personal journey.
• A great leader is not always a great teammate.
• Curiosity beats correction when a leader cannot reserve judgment.
• The fear of being a tryhard is quietly shutting down effort.
• Moving an athlete from victim to creator starts with naming a choice.
• The hardest part of leading yourself is the moment you let yourself down.

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Making athletes work harder is one thing. Making athletes better is something else entirely — and Rustin Dodd draws that line clearly in this episode.

In part two of JP Nerbun's conversation with Rustin Dodd and Elise Devlin of The Athletic's Peak section, the discussion moves from habits and rituals into the heart of transformational coaching. Elise covers Dan Quinn's player PowerPoint presentations, Lisa Bluder's deep-dive into understanding Caitlin Clark, and what Tara Vanderveer's lasting player relationships reveal about the longevity of great coaching. Rustin breaks down the energy cost of being a coach and why the coaches who last build support systems around themselves. The episode closes with John Harbaugh's accountability frame and why "shoot the ball" might be the most important thing a coach can say.

For coaches who want to understand what separates the ones athletes call ten years later from the ones they just remember.

3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.

"Being a coach that can get your players to work harder is easier than being a coach that can make them better. At the most basic level, it's giving people confidence."
— Rustin Dodd

"When you are losing a lot of energy and you have not a lot left, take what you do have left and give it to other people and it'll come back to you multiplied."
— Elise Devlin

"There's no better feeling than when your coach yells shoot it. I think about that as a metaphor — it's some level of trust, putting confidence in the person."
— Rustin Dodd

Q1: Think about a player you know well enough to coach hard — and one you don't. What would it take to close that gap this week?

Q2: When did you last own a bad day in front of your team? What did that cost you — and what did it build?

The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey
The origin text for the entire executive coaching industry — referenced in this episode as foundational reading for understanding the inner life of an athlete. Jared McCain reads it. Steve Kerr coaches from it.
Available on Amazon

• Making Athletes Better Is Different from Making Them Work Harder
• The Deeper You Know Your Athletes, the Better You Can Lead Them
• Tough Conversations Only Land When the Relationship Is Real
• Coaches Need a Support System Too
• Ownership Is a Leadership Skill
• Curiosity Is a Long-Term Coaching Practice

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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.