Conscious Chatter

In episode 304, Kestrel welcomes Eric Liedtke, the co-founder and CEO of UNLESS, to the show. A collective of innovators, engineers, artists, and activists, UNLESS make plant-based streetwear designed to leave zero plastic waste.

"I think sustainability is one of those hygiene words at this point — like everybody can talk themselves into they're doing sustainable things. I think we need to get more specific. I think as marketers and storytellers, we need to really be very clear with our consumers what we're doing. And you know, this crewneck that nobody can see today that I'm wearing, it's gonna last as long as anything else, but when you're done with it, it will go harmlessly back to earth. And I'm using some of our old product and some of our scraps actually as feed for my raised bed gardens at home. This stuff works and it makes good, nutritious soil that we can grow roses or cotton or tomatoes out of." -Eric

Have you ever heard that recurring question in the sustainability and fashion space? I'd say it's also one that permeates the world of climate advocacy as well – and let's be honest, it's pretty binary-oriented in its framing.

I'm talking about the question of which is needed most – individual action, governmental action or corporate change. I mean, let's be real – we are in a state of emergency here, so all hands on deck is preferable, and many of these overlap, but you know, the mainstream narrative continues to search for the golden ticket that will get us all out of this mess.

One thing I hear so much more nowadays than in recent years is – the need for corporations to change. There are petitions regularly circulated, there's all the advocacy work organizations like Remake are doing pushing brands to sign onto the International Accord for garment worker safety. And in alignment with this, there is a lot going on with legislation to try to pass legal frameworks that would hold brands accountable to do better.

And on that corporate change note – at this current moment in time, we are amidst an era of strikes happening across different industries because the power holders on top don't want to share with the folks working further down the hierarchy. From actors and writers in the entertainment industry to municipal workers and hotel employees, the pressure is on for corporations to change – to share a bigger piece of the massive pie they're indulging in.

But also – it's important to acknowledge that there are so many folks across the corporate space working in sustainability and beyond, and trying to challenge the system from within to change. And let's be real – that's not an easy task with all the current systems in place.

This week's guest worked from the inside for a so-called *power player* for over 25 years trying to push for change, and then, he left to start his own company with a focus on collaborating with innovators, engineers, artists, and activists, to make plant-based streetwear that leaves zero plastic waste behind.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "I did as much as I could when I was at Adidas to turn us from a brand that was focused on just virgin polyester use — as for those that don't know, 70% of fashion and especially sports brands are made from petroleum. It's basically been this advent of petroleum-based product called polyesters or nylons or spandexes, but it all comes from petroleum-based products, which is forever material. When you start to become aware of that, and you start to become aware of the degradation these forever materials have on the planet, on our fellow species, on ourselves, you find it harder and harder to whisper yourself to sleep. And those voices that were personal to you, come up louder and louder in your head. And you can't unhear and unsee the things you're doing. So, at a certain point, you're like ok, I need to step outside and take this industrial experience I have from 26 years at Adidas and my passion for a better way and helping solve the world's problems, and combine it into one effort, and that really was joining forces with a band of likeminded people to create the UNLESS Collective." -Eric (9:30)

• Natural Fiber Welding (one of the companies UNLESS partners with) — listen to past episode 124 featuring their founder Luke Haverhals

• "Luke obviously has this unique innovation of plant-based leather, 100% plant-based leather (the only one I've found by the way), and there's a lot of plants being used for leather-type material — whether it be grapes or apples or coconut or cactus, I think there's a lot of solutions out there. Most of them, if not all of them that I've found, are fillers for polyurethane which is another form of plastic and also need to have backing, which they have to glue a synthetic backing on the back for stability." -Eric (21:45)

• UNLESS Website

• Follow Eric on Instagram >

• Follow UNLESS on Instagram >

In episode 303, Kestrel welcomes Natalie Shehata, Conscious Chatter's new Social Media Strategist + Storyteller, to the show. A sustainable stylist, community organizer, speaker and writer, Nat brings exceptional experience and knowledge to how we approach storytelling.

"I feel as though storytelling for me has been a very powerful medium in being able to instigate change. I feel like stories really shift culture and they can shift culture on a really large scale as well. But personally for me, I've kind of learned so much over the years through storytelling. And I think it's important that we kind of acknowledge that storytelling and stories in general is a vehicle for survival for a lot of people — for belonging, for connection, for hope. Stories are, especially for the BIPOC community as well, are our legacy in a lot of ways." -Natalie

Welcoming Nat to join the Conscious Chatter team is an absolute dream — I don't even know how else to say it. Being able to work alongside someone that I admire and respect on such a deep level is beyond incredible. And if you aren't familiar with Nat, I'd also recommend listening back to episode 250, where she joined me for a conversation on why diversity can be tokenistic.

With this new shift in the Conscious Chatter dynamic, we put together this episode as a unique sort of refresh and check-in — to let you all know where we're at with the show, what we're focused on, and where we're going.

Here are some of the key elements we explore:

• How Nat and I first came together and what it means to have her working on the Conscious Chatter team

• What storytelling means to Nat and some of the ways we align on the responsibility that comes with crafting narratives

• What is slow media and what does it look like in practice

• The challenges that come with telling stories through a slow media lens

• An update on when you can expect new episodes to drop

• Our big picture goals for the show (individually and collectively) and how we hope to continue infusing intentionality and care into the content we create

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "We really want to be able to ensure that the stories and perspectives shared by the guests on the show are kind of always in circulation. And I guess what I mean but that is — really making sure that the perspectives, the knowledge, the wisdom that people share throughout the show — it's not a situation where a show is released, and then that's it, we don't go back to it and we don't reference those ideas. We want to be able to go back to those episodes and to the guests that have appeared on the show, and really be able to continuously keep those perspectives in circulation, and kind of keep resurfacing those ideas." -Nat (11:35)

• "Language is super important to both of us, and really thinking about the way that we phrase things, and making sure that it is accessible to as many people as possible, and that we meet people where they are at on their journey." -Nat (20:40)

• "Often when we're telling stories we have to market it or promote it in a way where this guest is knowledgable on this area — whatever that may be — but when you go back and listen to these people, because they are people, they are multi-faceted individuals, and they may speak on one issue, but when you go back to listen again and again to these guests, they have so much knowledge to share, on so many different topics, that may not be their field of "expertise". For me, what I'm really wanting to do is share that with the community and share that as individuals we are multi-faceted and we have a lot of knowledge and deep wisdom. The more we humanize that knowledge, we realize that we've just got so much to offer, but also, that we are flawed as humans as well, and we're all just at this trying to do our best." -Nat (27:08)

• "We're not getting into these states of mind where we're having all these light bulbs go off or all the dots are connecting because we're not giving ourselves enough space without notifications interrupting us to get to those places." -Kestrel (29:49)

• "It alway feels like you can never keep up, you're further behind, there's more things to read, more things to listen to, more things to watch, more things to catch up on, or more things you need to be posting — it all is just so much on a constant basis." -Kestrel (34:55)

• The Root 6-Part Series Hosted & Co-Produced by Dominique Drakeford (mentioned by Nat)

• Whitney McGuire, Kestrel acknowledges her impact when reminding us that sustainability means getting active in your local community

• Conscious Chatter episode 250 (previous episode featuring Natalie)

• Follow Natalie on Instagram >

In episode 302, Kestrel welcomes Jessie Frances (@cuppuccinosandconsignment) to the show. Highly knowledgeable on the world of preloved fashion, Jessie holds a BFA in Fashion Design and French with a Minor in Art History. Through her work, she shares ideas around luxury vintage savviness, smart travel tips, and slow-living hacks, and also consults companies on luxury resale.

"It is an addiction. Even when you look on YouTube and whatever social media, you see thrifting hauls. I remember hauls were just specifically for new items — you only did hauls with your fast fashion. It was very singular. Now, there are thrifting hauls multiple times a week. And we have just replaced fast fashion with thrifting." -Jessie

I think it's pretty undeniable that RESALE is having a moment.

If I think about the shifts in recent years, when it comes to the secondhand market, it's overwhelming. I remember thrifting in high school, growing up in the midwest – and for me, it was always about searching for pieces that no one else had – and thrift shops were where I could find those unique pieces.

But the changes since then – almost 20 years later – are immense.

I was looking at thredUP's 2023 Report, and in it, they say that – The global secondhand market is expected to nearly double by 2027, reaching $350 Billion. And the global secondhand apparel market is expected to grow 3X faster on average than the global apparel market overall.

Clearly, there is a lot of GROWTH happening in resale fashion.

This week's guest is highly knowledgeable on the world of preloved fashion – she started thrifting as a kid out of necessity. As she reflects – at that time, you didn't want anyone to see you at a thrift store and you didn't want anyone to know you were wearing thrifted styles. So, she would always find ways to customize her secondhand pieces, to give them an extra edge.

Since then, as I mentioned, a lot has changed. This week's guest now consults companies on luxury resale.

We talk about whether this growth in resale is connected to folks simply transitioning their fast fashion addictions to secondhand instead. We talk about luxury's obsession with exclusivity and how that conflicts with the potential accessibility of the resale market. And we touch on the gentrification of thrifting and how this weaves into the luxury resale conversation today.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "So, it's being very, very strategic when you're shopping with thrifting because it really is a thrill. It has turned into like modern-day hunting, it's for sport now. People get such a thrill because the prices for the most part (depending on what city you're in), the prices are so good that you just want to buy, buy, buy. You love saying — look how much I got for $100. But you want to know — how much out of the $100 haul are you keeping? Are you returning $85 of that to your next thrift store run? So, it's really being strategic when you are thrifting." -Jessie

• "Not just in fashion, we've all seen what happens when big brands come in and take over smaller ventures. I mean, look at ride sharing, without naming any names. You see how it changed things. So, it makes me question — ok, now you're offering me, let's say 80% of what I paid. Now, once you wipe out these smaller consignment shops, once you wipe out these smaller resellers, what's gonna happen then? Cause now you have the upper hand. So, are you now gonna offer me 50% for what I purchased? Or are you just not gonna offer anything at all because you know — there's no competition." -Jessie (27:19)

• "How Are Luxury Brands Creating (Even More) Scarcity In The Resale Era?", article in Fashionista Kestrel mentions

• "It's accepting, knowing and being secure in your style. Once you know who you are, you're not swayed by a trending hashtag, by what the princess is wearing — when those things no longer matter, when you know who you are, it makes life so much easier." -Jessie (47:07)

• Cappuccinos and Consignment Blog

• Follow Jessie on YouTube >

• Follow Jessie on TikTok >

• Follow Jessie on Instagram >

In episode 301, Kestrel welcomes Winona Quigley, the founder and CEO of Green Matters Natural Dye Company, to the show. Based in Lancaster County PA, Green Matters is dedicated to bringing pollution-free color to the textile industry by using all-natural dye ingredients.

"I think that what brands are going to have to embrace about working with more sustainable fibers and textile-making practices, is the fact that we are working with plants. Not just for the dyes, but for some of those fiber crops — they are plants. And it's like winemaking, in that we need to think about production not as how do we make something identical a hundred thousand times, but how do we build production systems that not only account for, but embrace the organic nature of working with plants." -Winona

Something that has become a knee jerk response – whenever someone starts a business endeavor within the sustainability space – is to ask about how SCALABLE that venture is.

It's a question that I found myself asking on a regular basis early on with the show 7 years ago, and something that I have become increasingly aware of in my discussions. I mean – it's obvious once you step back and get a little perspective – we are all entirely entrenched in the prevailing ideals of our capitalistic system, and it makes us regularly think that in order for something to be successful, it must constantly grow from an economic lens.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about scale, but maybe it's time to reimagine what it actually means. Especially for those of us advocating for a different fashion system than what currently exists.

This week's guest is specifically working to scale natural dye techniques through their professional fabric dyeing services. A lot of the time, we hear about natural dyeing on a very small scale, a craft that folks experiment with at home or in textile art spaces. But for our guest's company, they have an intention to do natural dyeing at scale, per se.

We talk about what SCALE means for them, how they're reimagining it from various angles, and how "limits" come into play with the way they approach scaling in practice.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• Brooklyn Tweed, company Winona mentions (first big project she did was for them)

• "So that's a really interesting challenge, I think, for our generation of business owners is — how can we solve the problem we're hoping to solve, make enough money to pay everybody, and not expect to embark on this endeavor just because we're trying to make as much profit as possible." -Winona (28:53)

• Westfield Flower Company, a dahlia supplier Green Matters works with

• Chipotle merch naturally dyed with avocado pits by Green Matters

• Blue Light Junction, Winona mentions their work

• Kenya Miles (founder of Blue Light Junction)

• Stony Creek Colors, company growing indigo in the U.S.

• Organic Living Blue Indigo (company based in Bangladesh)

• Green Matter's Community Indigo Dye Vat

• Green Matter's Dyelot Of The Month

• Green Matters Events

• Green Matters Website

• Follow Green Matters on Instagram >

In episode 300, Kestrel welcomes Dr. Lisa Erdle, the Director of Science and Research at 5 Gyres, to the show. A microplastics researcher and lifelong sailor, Lisa is passionate about keeping waterways clean for wildlife and people.

"A load of laundry can shed anywhere in the range of hundreds of thousands to millions of microfibers, depending on how you wash and what you wash. There can be 850 times more microfibers shed from a high-shedding item compared to a low, so the textile design really matters. And washing isn't the only source of microfibers to the environment — we know there's also dryers, carpets and upholstery, cigarette butts, wet wipes, there's quite a long list. But the one that we know the most about, and one we have a solution for, is our washing machines." -Dr. Lisa

Today, we hear a lot about microfibers in our oceans and waterways, and how they are an issue we're facing. There are consistent news articles out there about it. At the same time, the narrative is generally very much aligned with polyester and synthetics and you know, the plastic side of things.

But as this week's guest reminds us – all fabrics shed microfibers. And it's important to note that when fibers shed from our clothing, it's not just the base fiber that is of concern – whether it's cotton or polyester, a natural fiber or a synthetic material – these fibers are generally also carrying some sort of chemical cocktail (a mix of dyes and treatments and coatings that are added to the fabric throughout the supply chain).

You may be asking – how are all these fibers ending up in our waterways? According to researchers, the biggest culprits are washing machines. But these microfibers can also shed from dryers and even simply from walking around throughout the day.

All of these layers make understanding the impacts of microfibers on people and the planet very complex. But as much as we don't know, we also know enough from a scientific lens, to act. There are solutions out there that can at least help slow down the rate of microfibers released into the environment.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "The Widespread Environmental Footprint of Indigo Denim Microfibers from Blue Jeans", study Kestrel mentions

• "Capturing microfibers – marketed technologies reduce microfiber emissions from washing machines", research paper that Dr. Lisa contributed to

• "Washing Machine Filters Reduce Microfiber Emissions: Evidence From a Community-Scale Pilot in Parry Sound, Ontario", research paper that Dr. Lisa contributed to

• The Microfibre Consortium, organization that Dr. Lisa mentions

• Info about AB 1628 (California filtration bill)

• "The research on microfibers shows that used clothing typically sheds less than new clothing, poorly constructed garments shed more microfibers than well constructed garments. So, buying used when possible, or buying higher quality garments and washing less, washing cold — these are all things that can reduce your microfiber footprint." -Dr. Lisa (40:58)

• 5 Gyres video about textiles & microfibers

• 5 Gyres video about textiles & microfibers (in Spanish)

• More on 5 Gyres research

• 5 Gyres Website

• Follow 5 Gyres on Instagram >

In episode 299, Kestrel welcomes Liz Spencer, the natural dye wizard behind Dogwood Dyer, to the show. With experience in both tending organic natural dye gardens and coaxing color from plants, Liz has devoted her artistic practice to discovering as much as possible about color that can come from plants.

"That's sort of the pathway to understanding — is having the time to be intimate with one thing in particular like indigo or any dye plant, especially if you're growing your color, or even growing your own fiber — is spending a whole year just getting it to where you have the raw material, and then starting the process of creating the color or creating the textile. It really affords you ample time to ask many questions, and to holistically get to know it." -Liz

Something that's super important to me within this conversation is cultural sustainability – and ensuring we are acknowledging and respecting the roots of cultural traditions and craft techniques that have origins within many Black and Brown Indigenous communities.

As many of you have heard my guests and myself talk about over the years – the mainstream sustainability movement has done a lot of stealing and co-opting of knowledge and ideas, without crediting where these concepts originated.

Ever since I read an article by Nathalie Peña in Katie Pruett's Ethical Style Journal, I instantly think of these realities with regard to natural dye techniques.

For example – the dusty pink color, also known as millennial pink – that has been trending for the last several years has origins in Mexican culture, with the color being derived from avocado pits. But rarely do we hear this origin story from natural dyers or folks using these techniques in the space today.

This week's guest has a voracious curiosity when it comes to all things natural dyeing. She has been growing plants for natural color and experimenting with adding color to garments using natural dyes for years now.

As a white woman in the sustainability space, I admire the deep learnings Liz has collected, with regard to the cultural origins attached to the techniques she uses, and the ways she continues to work to find creative and thoughtful ways to honor these roots.

We get into these layers, as well as more on the differences between synthetic, biosynthetic and natural dyes, and some nuanced thoughts around the so-called *scalability* of natural dyes.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "Cultural Sustainability and Natural Dyes in Fashion", article from Ethical Style Journal that Kestrel mentions in intro

• "What are biosynthetic dyes & could they replace the toxic petroleum-heavy ingredients in today's predominant indigo garment dye?" (Conscious Chatter episode 274 that Liz mentions)

• "Those stable colors, I feel are worth the investment, but it just takes more time. And so, that's the biggest difference between retrieving brilliant colors with natural dyes vs synthetic dyes. And each has its consequence. One is — with natural color, more time investment. And then, one is — with synthetic dyes, the potential for having to problem solve when it comes to the product, the potential toxicity of synthetic dye effluent and what's left over that's really not biodegradable." -Liz (29:27)

• "I think it's really important for anyone that gets into natural dyeing or starts on a path to do conscious digging and question-asking when sourcing the dyestuffs, and then of course working with them. Because you invariably will uncover complicated and painful context of history of these beautiful colors. I always recommend too — if you have the privilege to work with any of the dyes, in situ of their native habitat that they come from, or if you've worked with any of the dyers who hold the dye knowledge within their cultural and historical lineage — to share their work and to encourage others to seek out from them, to go and learn from them if they're seeking students. It's really important to understand the provenance and the historic context of the material for the artist, I believe — it's part of exploring the dyes and then paying respect to all of those who have contributed to millennia of this knowledge base that we all now benefit from." -Liz (35:26)

• Stony Creek Colors American Grown Indigo

• Natural Dye Podcast Highlights Listing BIPOC Natural Dyers/Artists/Farmers/Educators

• Green Matters Natural Dye Co & Botanical Colors (natural dye houses scaling dye production in the U.S.)

• 'Earthcolors by Archroma' (making biosynthetic natural dyes from agricultural waste)

• Bio Black Dye by Nature Coatings (biosynthetic dye made from wood waste)

• The Dogwood Dyer Educational Subscription 'A Year in Natural Dyes' (natural dye knowledge for anyone)

• Dogwood Dyer Website

• Follow Liz on Instagram >

In episode 298, Kestrel welcomes Anjana Baburaj to the show. An impact-focused strategist and communications specialist, Anjana works with mission-driven organizations to leverage communication platforms to increase visibility and achieve sustainability and impact goals.

"No matter how much we try to control — if we keep overconsuming, we're not getting anywhere with anything that we're doing for sustainability. So, that is one of the reasons I wanted to know — why is this happening? And that's how I got into my research." -Anjana

If you've been following along over the last couple of years, I have often brought up the links between fast fashion and fast media. In today's world, I believe the only way to slow down fashion is to also slow down media – since fashion and media are intrinsically linked predominantly around driving consumption.

This leads me to this week's guest, who recently conducted some powerful research focused on fashion, social media, and consumption.

Have you heard of the TikTok Shein haul trend? You may have seen it – basically, it involves individuals sharing all the items that they purchased from ultra fast fashion brand Shein in a video (or haul). Sometimes they disclose how much money they spent on the clothing, and as this week's guest concludes, it's largely interconnected to showcasing social status.

The United States is Shein's largest market – I have personally experienced their aggressive social media tactics – I get these messages that are tagging me in a visual telling me how to become a Shein ambassador. I feel like I am constantly flagging them as spam and blocking the accounts, but they never stop rolling in.

The surprising thing is that it's not Shein's actual *influencers* or *paid partners* that drive the company's sales – instead, it's User Generated Content, which is basically content individuals post on social media without receiving any payment. They do it at their own will, and it's fueling the continual growth of this ultra fast fashion brand.

There is so much to break down when it comes to these layers — tune in to hear more directly from Anjana.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "The reality is that we will always be pressured to consume more — that is how business works. Because the idea of growth is tightly linked to economics of sale, and that is how even the fundamentals of GDP work. And we can see that the developing countries will soon catch up with the developed nations in terms of the amount of consumption, which is bad. But to change that, the definition of growth should change — GDP should probably not be the sole indicator of how a nation is classified as developed. And systems should change. This will take more time and effort, but reducing consumption and choosing wisely, even it is from a mass-market brand, can be done faster if individuals and communities engage in conscious consumption."-Anjana (35:53)

• Connect with Anjana on LinkedIn

• Anjana's Website

• Follow Anjana on Instagram >

In episode 297, Kestrel welcomes Lizz Leral, the Executive Director of Quilting for Community, to the show. A nonprofit organization, Quilting For Community is focused on building community by teaching the art of quiltmaking.

"The act of focusing on such a small area of the world — nothing else exists in that little area but that piece of fabric, and whether you're measuring or you're cutting or you're pressing — and my experience has been that when you're in that state, the answers for the other questions come to you." -Lizz

Over the last several years, I've been super curious about the links between activities we do with our hands and our mental health. I've read research about how quilting or other crafting activities can reduce overall stress and provide benefits for our mental health.

There's this idea of being in the FLOW state, or this feeling of being entirely in the moment and hyper-focused, and in a sort of zone.

Amidst today's world where speed reigns above all else in many circumstances, this is something that I find very interesting. According to books like Stolen Focus, we are having a harder and harder time accessing the flow state today – because we are constantly interrupted by a text or an email or a DM or whatever other random notification that comes through.

Or let's be real – we also just get that urge to check our email or texts or IG or whatever, because most of us are addicted in one way or another to our tech.

In the book I mentioned, Stolen Focus, it's explained that if you get interrupted while focusing on something, on average, it takes 23 minutes for you to get back into that state of focus.

But like I mentioned, certain HAND-ORIENTED activities can help transport us to that special place. One of them being – QUILTING.

This week's guest has a powerful story that led her to quilting. After feeling the significant mental health benefits of it herself, she's now found creative ways to share it with others through her nonprofit.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "I know that it's possible to do things and to have an impact on your community using the things that already exist. Sometimes people have an idea to do something, and what stops them is — oh, how can I afford this and I'm going to have to get all these things. And they go on Amazon and they add it all up, and they say: I can't do it. And I think we're missing that — look a little deeper; everything you need is here." -Lizz (29:02)

• "The relationship between quilting and wellbeing", research from The Journal Of Public Health

• The Third Place, mentioned by Lizz (the places you go when you aren't at home or work)

• Quilting For Community's Website (access free quilting classes there)

• Follow Quilting For Community on TikTok >

• Follow Quilting For Community on Instagram >

In episode 296, Kestrel welcomes Kelly Drennan, the founder of Fashion Takes Action, to the show. A Canada-based non-profit, Fashion Takes Action works to remove barriers to sustainability through education, awareness, research and collaboration.

"We often talk about our school program, and just fashion is inherently cool, you know. And so, we're able to really, through our school program, touch on some of these bigger, broader climate change issues, but through the lens of fashion, which for kids is relatable and cool. They get up every day and they put on clothes, but they don't get up every day and drive a vehicle or pay the energy bills or go grocery shopping. So, for us, it's just a really great way to reach them and we try to do it in a way that's cool." -Kelly

Have you looked into educational programs around fashion and sustainability? Or maybe you have completed a program focused on sustainability or fashion and sustainability?

The options out there are definitely growing in the higher education realm, but I think there is still a lot of work to do when it comes to ensuring the curriculum becomes more holistic and includes the root issues that have led to why we are where we are today.

But we are seeing changes at the higher education level, which is important. At the same time, what about kids? What about our youth?

When are they getting exposure to questions like:

• Who made my clothes?

• What are my clothes made out of?

• What does a fashion supply chain look like?

I hear whispers from folks in my community that little projects connected to fashion and sustainability are sneaking their way into elementary and high school education through educators who care about it, but on a large scale, I rarely hear that our young people are getting access to learn about why what we wear matters, on so many levels.

This week's guest developed a program back in 2014 to help teach youth about the impacts of fashion. While it was delivered in person by educators for several years, their workshops are now available online.

As she says –

"If we can reach these young people before they're out there in the world buying things, then, maybe we have a better chance at changing that behavior."

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "We realized early on — we weren't just going to be working with industry, because if consumers (I hate that word, I know we all hate that word now), but if the general public wasn't aware of the negative impacts of the industry and what sustainable alternatives there were, then they weren't necessarily going to have access to sustainable designers. And so, we always felt that we needed to keep educating the general public, while at the same time, supporting the industry." -Kelly (10:22)

• My Clothes My World Program

• WEAR Conference

• Fashion Impacts 101 (RCGD Global x Fashion Takes Action Video Series)

• Fashion Take's Action Website >

• Follow Kelly on Instagram >

• Follow Fashion Takes Action on Instagram >

In episode 295, Kestrel welcomes Rayouf Alhumedhi, the creator of the hijab emoji, to the show. Deeply passionate about bridging the creative space and tech, Rayouf founded the hijab emoji project to push for digital representation for Muslim women around the world. She was named one of Time's Most Influential Teens and Forbes 30 under 30; currently, Rayouf is a senior at Stanford majoring in Product Design.

"I think there needs to be more thoughtful exploration of when is it good to make new product and when is it even better to rethink existing product? Like I mentioned in my table furniture building project, I noticed my team and I were getting excited about —what if we do this and we do that and we do that. But at the end of the day, all of that requires extra junk in the world. And yes, it's an enhancement and yes, it's an add-on, but it's not necessary at all. So, I wish more design students or more product design students had that framework instilled in their minds as an educational toolkit." -Rayouf

One point that comes up often in the sustainability and fashion dialogue is the way that our intentions are not aligning with our actions. There's this sort of dissonance between what we say vs what we do.

As a report by Zalando from 2021 showed, we often say we believe in shopping more mindfully, but often don't actually follow through when it comes to acting upon those ideas.

For example –

• While 60% of survey respondents said transparency is important to them, only 20% actively seek out information as part of the purchasing process.

• Or while 60% of consumers say repair, second-hand and sustainable disposal are important to them, but only 23% repair their clothes and 25% regularly buy second-hand.

While data can be skewed or interpreted in one way or another, the important sentiment that I take from this sort of information is that changing behavior is CHALLENGING, and it doesn't happen with the flick of a switch.

This is something that this week's guest and I riff on throughout this episode – questioning the reasons why, trying to understand what's leading to this disconnect, specifically analyzing how Gen Z fits into these behaviors, and ideating on what could potentially help propel more positive behavioral change moving forward.

But again – it's not all on the individual. It's also about corporations and regulation and DESIGN – something that this week's guest is very passionate about. As she says, it's important to design for the extremes, to ensure products are created with more accessibility and equity from the get-go.

Sidebar – this week's guest is pretty legendary – she's also the creator of the hijab emoji – which she developed 6 or so years ago, at the age of 16.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• Oddli, brand Rayouf mentions

• "If being a part of your sustainable company or your sustainability vision is already an added value, buying something feels less of a burden. And if I know my friend is also buying it, naturally, I'm going to be pulled to it." (21:46) -Rayouf

• "Teen behind new hijab emoji: 'I just wanted an emoji of me'", article in CNN about Rayouf's work on hijab emoji

• Panel Discussion With Computer History Museum featuring Rayouf

• Dr. Marten's Zine that Rayouf contributed to

• Rayouf's Website >

• Follow Rayouf on Instagram >