Conscious Chatter

In episode 295, Kestrel welcomes Rayouf Alhumedhi, the creator of the hijab emoji, to the show. Deeply passionate about bridging the creative space and tech, Rayouf founded the hijab emoji project to push for digital representation for Muslim women around the world. She was named one of Time's Most Influential Teens and Forbes 30 under 30; currently, Rayouf is a senior at Stanford majoring in Product Design.

"I think there needs to be more thoughtful exploration of when is it good to make new product and when is it even better to rethink existing product? Like I mentioned in my table furniture building project, I noticed my team and I were getting excited about —what if we do this and we do that and we do that. But at the end of the day, all of that requires extra junk in the world. And yes, it's an enhancement and yes, it's an add-on, but it's not necessary at all. So, I wish more design students or more product design students had that framework instilled in their minds as an educational toolkit." -Rayouf

One point that comes up often in the sustainability and fashion dialogue is the way that our intentions are not aligning with our actions. There's this sort of dissonance between what we say vs what we do.

As a report by Zalando from 2021 showed, we often say we believe in shopping more mindfully, but often don't actually follow through when it comes to acting upon those ideas.

For example –

• While 60% of survey respondents said transparency is important to them, only 20% actively seek out information as part of the purchasing process.

• Or while 60% of consumers say repair, second-hand and sustainable disposal are important to them, but only 23% repair their clothes and 25% regularly buy second-hand.

While data can be skewed or interpreted in one way or another, the important sentiment that I take from this sort of information is that changing behavior is CHALLENGING, and it doesn't happen with the flick of a switch.

This is something that this week's guest and I riff on throughout this episode – questioning the reasons why, trying to understand what's leading to this disconnect, specifically analyzing how Gen Z fits into these behaviors, and ideating on what could potentially help propel more positive behavioral change moving forward.

But again – it's not all on the individual. It's also about corporations and regulation and DESIGN – something that this week's guest is very passionate about. As she says, it's important to design for the extremes, to ensure products are created with more accessibility and equity from the get-go.

Sidebar – this week's guest is pretty legendary – she's also the creator of the hijab emoji – which she developed 6 or so years ago, at the age of 16.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• Oddli, brand Rayouf mentions

• "If being a part of your sustainable company or your sustainability vision is already an added value, buying something feels less of a burden. And if I know my friend is also buying it, naturally, I'm going to be pulled to it." (21:46) -Rayouf

• "Teen behind new hijab emoji: 'I just wanted an emoji of me'", article in CNN about Rayouf's work on hijab emoji

• Panel Discussion With Computer History Museum featuring Rayouf

• Dr. Marten's Zine that Rayouf contributed to

• Rayouf's Website >

• Follow Rayouf on Instagram >

In episode 294, Kestrel welcomes Jeff Garner, the designer behind Prophetik, to the show. A romantic visual artist, pioneer and unconventional designer, Jeff's sustainably-minded label Prophetik is focused on changing our perception of luxury.

"It's interesting how everybody in their different segment of market just want to do the cheapest ingredient because they don't expect the buyer to buy it, cause it's more. So, it's this idea that if you go into a design, and just try to make it the cheapest way possible, so that you can turn around and sell it for the most money, and nobody wants to spend extra to make something better. And I'm like — where have we gone in a society that we don't want to carve our stone for our patio, let's say … we don't want to carve the wood to do our door." -Jeff

This week's guest was the FIRST sustainability-focused designer I discovered that I got really excited about. Over the years, he has dressed notable stars including Fleetwood Mac, Miley Cyrus, Cheryl Crow and Taylor Swift, among others.

A little background – I started a blog called Make Fashion Fair back in 2010. I had just finished my internship at People Tree in London, and was trying to find my voice in this space. My 4th blog post on February 20th, 2010, was titled – "elephants, ethics, and fashion".

It featured two creatives I was drawn to at the time – musician Trevor Hall and this week's guest. They both had this random connection to elephants and painting. Trevor Hall had a music video where he is getting painted by elephants, and this week's guest had a collection that featured prints painted by elephants.

So – with that in mind, getting the chance to have this week's conversation feels very circular.

In addition to continuing to challenge what fashion can look like on the runway and at a luxury level, this week's guest is also behind a new documentary series that uncovers the fashion industry's toxic secrets and highlights the importance of making and wearing nontoxic clothing.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "elephants, ethics and fashion", Kestrel's blog post from back in 2010 that feautures Jeff

• An article from Choc & Juice that highlights more information on the Singer Studies that Jeff mentions

• "My mom passed away from breast cancer, so I'm a firm believer that nylon and polyester bras are a huge part of breast cancer. Unfortunately, you cannot pinpoint and say this particular chemical in this bra caused the breast cancer, but it does have those toxins that are carcinogenic in it that have been proven, and research proves it, that do cause it." -Jeff (23:12)

• "Chemicals from textiles to skin: an in vitro permeation study of benzothiazole", published study that backs up Jeff's theory of toxins entering the epidermis or skin through textiles / dyes

• Prophetik

• Follow Prophetik on Instagram >

In episode 293, Kestrel welcomes Jenna Hanson and Jon Hershman, the cofounders of Revival Eyewear, to the show. Offering an extensive collection of deadstock vintage glasses and sunglasses, Revival Eyewear is dedicated to reminding us that it's possible for old things to be elevated in both quality and style.

"I fell in love with the glasses and the idea that these were vintage but brand new. I had never in my life heard of that concept — deadstock, new old stock. It was so fascinating to me. At Jon's shop in PB, I would take them out of their cases and just be like — what is this? This is a YSL from the 1970s, it has its original packaging, I can't believe this exists." -Jenna

Another niche (yet massive) realm of the fashion industry that we rarely discuss is the GLASSES industry. I'm talking sunglasses and eyeglasses – which I would say are a very integral part of the world of fashion and style.

This week's guests started a company where they sell unworn deadstock frames from the '60s to the '00s. If they were made so long ago, how were they never worn? Where have they been sitting, waiting to find a face to wear them?

Well, we get into that.

Also, we get into the mud about the powerful Italian conglomerate that owns SO MANY PIECES of the eyewear industry – from insurance companies to eyewear brands to manufacturing to retail eyewear stores. It's amazing the stronghold this megacompany has on today's eyewear industry.

Just as we talk about with the fast fashion industry, the eyewear industry has lost much of its quality luster. We often refer to the planned obsolescence of our era, and how —

"They just don't make them like they used to."

Well, my guests actually have the knowledge to articulate what makes vintage glasses so different from their current counterparts. What has changed in how they're made today, and what aspects of craftsmanship made them so elevated back n the day?

We also touch on the massive waste that the glasses industry is generating, considering the materiality and disposable approach to manufacturing them today. It's wild to think that the styles made today may never be considered *deadstock* or deemed worthy to resell.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "Meet the Four-Eyed, Eight-Tentacled Monopoly That is Making Your Glasses So Expensive", article in Forbes, that explores some of the power of Luxottica

• "Eyeglass Start-Up Ready to Battle Industry Titan, Sets Sights on Online Growth", article in Yahoo Finance, that explores some of the power of Luxottica

• "We went to a conference last year called Vision Expo, and it was literally just Luxottica everywhere — so they own lenses, they own the lens manufacturer, they own the frame, they own the insurance, they own the places to sell the glasses. I don't know how it gets any more monopoly than that. They own LensCrafters, Sunglass Hut, Target Optical, Pearl Vision, they own the big online store EyeBuyDirect, they own the insurance company EyeMed, and then, just about all of the brands that are inside of a LensCrafters or Sunglass Hut like RayBan, Oakley, Persol, Oliver Peoples - everything basically that you can find inside those stores, they also own those brands." -Jenna & Jon (20:58)

• Revival Eyewear

• Follow Revival Eyewear on Instagram >

In episode 292, Kestrel welcomes Denica Riadini-Flesch, a development economist and the director at SukkhaCitta, to the show. A social enterprise started in 2016, SukkhaCitta works to give women in rural Indonesia fair access to education and market.

"We have grown this company, this mission, these projects on the ground with that mindset that we want to build a model for change. So, we are not here to grow and make the most profits or be the best company in the market, you know, but it's really a very different mindset. We're here to connect consumers with the full story of how and why something was made." -Denica

One aspect of the complex and opaque fashion supply chain that is often overlooked is the number of homeworkers that are an integral part of making our clothes today.

I was reaching for some sort of statistic, and that led me to Nest's website – where they outline that upwards of 300 million people around the world work from home, engaged in primarily craft-based handwork. They are predominantly women, often invisible and without social protections.

This week's guest, a trained economist, saw this firsthand when she returned to her home country of Indonesia and was working as a social development consultant. This work took her to villages across the country, where she saw women literally making things with their hands from their homes.

She even spoke to a woman who was dyeing garments in her home – she had been given toxic dyes to use and was feeling the harmful health effects of it directly, not only on her lungs but also on her surrounding environment, when the dye would be dumped in the nearby river, where her children would play.

These experiences led her to realize that it could be possible to make clothes in a different way – where regeneration is actually central to the process. And maybe the status quo could actually no longer be the status quo!

From working with women farmers to rediscover the regenerative farming techniques of their ancestors to finding ways to use natural and upcycled food waste dyes, this week's guest is constantly asking more questions, seeking new solutions, and listening – to unearth the Indigenous knowledge that can help us reimagine what fashion can look like today.

It's undeniable that she's advocating – through action – to challenge the status quo.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• Episode 284 with Angel Chang (Kestrel mentions it in the intro)

• "Then we completely gave her the freedom to design the farm according to her memory of how her grandmother used to do it. So, she planted 20 different crops in the farm — one of them is cotton, but she also planted chiles, she also planted cloves and all these trees. And now, I learned that all these things that she was planting by memory is actually really what is being known globally as regenerative farming … and that was so mind-blowing to me — like literally, this Ibu, this woman, is planting by memory." -Denica (29:08)

• "Through this work, I've come to realize that you can grow in a different way." -Denica (48:16)

• "The new generation of companies should think about how we can grow with less." -Denica (50:41)

• SukkhaCitta Foundation

• SukkhaCitta Social Enterprise

• Follow SukkhaCita on Instagram >

• Follow Denica on Instagram >

In episode 291, Kestrel welcomes Abby Mills, aka @abbyontheinternet, to the show. A product designer working in tech in the San Francisco Bay Area, Abby is a style enthusiast, thrifter, beginner sewist, and a slow fashion + sustainability advocate.

"If we're talking about the original definition of de-influencing, I think it's great that more people are talking about this. There's a wider conversation that's happening now, and it's this newer idea to a more mainstream audience. And I think that a lot of people are craving this conversation. I think there's a strong response because people are pretty sick of being advertised to — they're craving the substance, they're craving this authenticity, they're craving people with a unique point of view." -Abby

You have most likely heard about this week's topic – DE-INFLUENCING.

It's something that started trending over on TikTok earlier this year, and has taken on many forms since then. In its origins, it was about becoming more critical about the things that we buy – and it started when a lot of so-called influencers started telling folks what NOT to buy, instead of their typical MO which is to focus on selling us things from their brand partners – things we more often than not, don't need.

This is a refreshing idea – I mean, our feeds are flooded with sponcon these days. Apparently traditional influencer marketing was a $16.4 billion industry last year, and we are becoming increasingly aware of how much we are being marketed to on a constant basis.

But while the initial concept of de-influencing is refreshing, it's definitely not new. There are several *influencers* or *content creators* who have been talking about issues around overconsumption and fast fashion and buying less for years now. Insert writer Aja Barber or creator Heidi Kaluza or drag queen Kimberly Clark – who was doing anti-hauls on YouTube 7 years ago, or this week's guest – who sometimes calls herself an ex-influencer.

Over the last couple of months, we have seen the meaning of de-influencer shift rapidly. It's gone from being about critiquing our consumerist society to instead, being co-opted by influencers and marketers as an opportunity to share why you shouldn't buy this product and instead, you should just buy that product!

Before we dive deep into all these layers – let's take a step back and momentarily examine what the origins of the influencer industry were all about.

This week's guest reminds us that the influencer industry was built off of the idea that folks trust the authenticity of everyday people, aka influencers, more than actual brands.

But, aren't we all struggling to trust *influencers* today? Aren't we regularly overwhelmed with searching for some sort of authenticity, because so much of the content we consume was created, solely because someone was paid to create it?

As this week's guest proposes – if influencers were actually doing their jobs (which includes being truthful and honest with their communities), would the de-influencing trend even exist?

If you can't tell yet, we go down a labyrinth of a rabbit hole with this one – but a lot of the discussion circles back to this primary question —

Can de-influencing help us combat overconsumption?

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "Deinfluencing EXPLAINED Sustainability, Overconsumption, & Deifluencers" — video by Queer Brown Vegan that Kestrel mentions

• "The new TikTok trend is convincing people not to buy things", article in The Washington Post that Kestrel mentions

• "Can Social Media's New Deinfluencing Trend Really Encourage Us To Buy Less Stuff?", article in British Vogue by Aditi Mayer that Kestrel mentions

• Aja Barber — one of the original folks who have been talking about de-influencing concepts (mentioned on the show)

• Heidi Kaluza — one of the original folks who have been talking about de-influencing concepts (mentioned on the show)

• Kimberly Clark — one of the original folks who have been talking about de-influencing concepts (mentioned on the show)

• Mandy Lee — *trend* analyst who has discussed de-influencing (mentioned on the show)

• "I started to understand what monetizing was all about — when I came into this industry, I naively did not understand how to get paid to be on the internet. And now, if you're a content creator or a vlogger or an influencer or whatever you call yourself — if you're monetizing, you're in the advertising industry. And this is not a judgement, you know, the advertising industry is a huge industry — there are many smart and creative people. So, it's not a judgment, but it's a fact. If you want to be paid to be on the internet and you're not being paid by your following, like through subscribers, you're part of the advertising industry." -Abby (15:14)

• "That's something that I try to practice throughout many aspects of my life is allowing myself to have little moments of failures and mistakes and being kind with myself so that I can feel confident to try new things … mistakes are an integral part of the learning process. You know, they're not accidental — they really are necessary if you want to learn and you want to grow." -Abby (49:20)

• Follow Abby on Instagram >

In episode 290, Kestrel welcomes Samata Pattinson, the CEO of RCGD Global, to the show. A women-led global change-making organization, RCGD Global is bringing environmental and social sustainability to the forefront of conversation and action within the global apparel and design industry.

"All I really want to be part of is helping other people see where they fit in this. And helping them to identify something that means something to them. It could be any of the things we talk about — it could be climate on a specific realm, it could be biodiversity through a specific realm, it could be women's rights, it could be advocating for Indigenous or Black representation. It could be any of those things, but it's almost like — let me try and help you see how you form a way of being in this conversation." -Samata

Have you ever heard of the term generative conversation? It's a newer concept for myself and it's one that this week's guest reminds us of.

On a basic level – generative conversations are conversations that involve genuine inquiry and sharing. They are conversations in which we engage in deep listening. They are conversations in which we feel truly heard and nourished – they involve a space where respect and trust are cultivated. And through generative conversations, they allow the possibility for expanded understandings and the discoveries of shared meaning.

In order to truly quote unquote *move the needle* in the sustainability and fashion space, these types of conversations are mandatory. As this week's guest reminds us, when we talk about sustainability, we have to lead with questions … not our individual agenda. Questions welcome an openness to learning and sharing. And they help avoid the critical tone that can easily sneak its way into these discussions.

Because remember – how we have the conversation influences where the conversation goes.

Thoughtful communication is so KEY for this week's guest. As the CEO of a global change-making organization, she is navigating storytelling with notable talent across a massive platform – the Red Carpet at the Oscars.

This year, she wrote the first ever Oscars Sustainable Dress code, that went out to every single attendee of this year's event. Imagine condensing the many layers of sustainability and fashion into one document – she shares how she did it.

I love how she welcomes a constant expansion in the sustainability narrative, and never loses sight of a key ingredient: hope.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• RCGD Global Sustainable Style Guide

• "We do say we want representation, we want these varied voices, but we don't talk about how much more interesting the conversation is, how much more enlightening the conversation is. The same way we will say — oh, you know, we have Indigenous communities protecting 80 percent of our biodiversity, but what we don't say is like but they protect it better. Comparatively, like 30-40-50 percent better growth biodiversity of fauna and flora. So, it's not just saying like, this should exist — it's saying it's more interesting, it's more expertise, it's more engaging, why aren't we doing more of it?" -Samata (30:22)

• Follow Samata on Instagram >

• Follow RCGD Global on Instagram >

• Follow Red Carpet Green Dress on Instagram >

In episode 289, Kestrel welcomes Amy Powney, a UK based fashion designer, creative director and activist living in London. After starting as an assistant who swept the cutting room floor, Amy worked her way up, and is now the Creative Director and owner at Mother Of Pearl. A luxury womenswear brand, Mother of Pearl celebrates individuality, authenticity and sustainability. Amy is also the star of a new documentary called Fashion Reimagined, that tells some of her story building Mother Of Pearl into what it is today.

"I guess growing up on a farm, growing up the way I did, working you know, in the bottoms of the supply chains and agriculture, et cetera, it just kind of — it felt homely and it felt raw and it felt honest and it felt important and it's really motivated me even more to want to tell that story, and for us to really understand when we see our product, what people and places and craftsmanship has been added. And that we can't just focus on this pure kind of end part, and we need to be really respectful and honored for the farmers and these workers — you know, without them, we don't have clothes and without them, we don't have food. I think we need to connect that supply chain up and respect it. And it's given me so much more respect as a designer to what I'm doing and why I'm doing it." -Amy

In Fashion Reimagined, Amy takes folks along with her on a journey to shift Mother Of Pearl toward a more sustainable direction. It all starts in 2017, when she wins the British Fashion Council/Vogue Designer Fashion Fund award and decides to invest that cash into tracing her supply chain back as far as possible to the raw materials.

The most exciting part of the film is watching them navigate their way through the sourcing process. We see their adventures in Uruguay to find a wool supplier, and their journey in Turkey to find a denim mill and factory, we see how they cultivate a relationship with a mill in Austria that uses steam rather than chemicals to soften the fabric, and of course, unexpected events happen, reminding us how important it is to be an exceptional problem solver in this industry.

The film culminates in the launch of the No Frills collection at London Fashion Week in September of 2018 – when Mother Of Pearl was the ONLY sustainable collection on the schedule. A reminder that this was only 5 years ago.

While we are undoubtedly seeing a lot of shifts in recent years – more brands showing more sustainably-focused collections, entire fashion weeks like Copenhagen dedicated to sustainability, and more mainstream discussion about it, Amy reminds us in the film that – "It's not enough – we aren't changing fast enough."

As Pedro, the owner of Lanas Trinidad (Mother Of Pearl's wool supplier), says in the film —

"We talk about sustainability and the environment – but we have to live the way we say."

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "I guess, the highlights, albeit being obviously one of the hardest parts of the process, was just reconnecting with the people in the supply chain. You know, in the fashion industry, it's notorious for promotion and sales and social media. We see fashion and we very much see it a kind of a glossy moment. And I think historically, a lot of the conversations around supply chains has been a bit boring and it's turned people off. And I think there's one thing learning about a supply chain or thinking about it, but another thing is when you actually meet these humans involved in it." -Amy (17:11)

• "If you look at a cotton garment, a wool garment, a viscose garment — I mean, even if you get into polyester and synthetics; obviously it's all been through these plastic processes and fundamentally, it is plastic. But its origin is actually oil, so we're actually taking from the planet in a very raw way to make our products, but we're so disconnected at the end. And actually, if we look at farming and agriculture, it's exactly the same in fashion — it's just it's a few more steps back, and people just don't connect the dots, and I think that's the piece of education that we all need to understand to respect our things in a different way." -Amy (21:54)

• Lanas Trinidad, Mother Of Pearl's wool supplier

• Fashion Reimagined Website (Fashion Reimagined - in cinemas 3rd March, 2023 and available on Sky Documentaries and streaming service NOW from 9th April, 2023)

• Mother Of Pearl Website

• Follow Amy on Instagram >

• Follow Fashion Reimagined on Instagram >

• Follow Mother Of Pearl on Instagram >

In episode 288, Kestrel welcomes designer, Trish Langman, to the show. With over 18 years of experience working with a long list of prestigious fashion brands, Trish is currently the Program Knowledge and Content Lead for the Fashion CEOs Accelerator program by Sovereignty, a partner with Argentinian NGO Hecho Por Nosotros and an advisor to the Board of Fashion Ghana, West Africa.

"Obviously, the companies need to be complicit — you know, they should stop making stuff. But the consumer, you know, because they're uneducated, they don't understand what they're buying. It's just a piece of clothing, but they're not thinking about any consequences of how it's made or what it does to them. Is it shedding microplastics, is it clogging the water? The consequences of you buying something that costs two dollars means that somebody's not being paid somewhere." -Trish

Have you ever thought about some of the basic knowledge that's shared with us in primary school? I'm thinking about the practical information that can help us in our everyday lives.

For example – as this week's guest mentions, the food pyramid is something most of us have probably learned about in school. (Ok, so I've read a plethora of concerns about the traditional food pyramid and how it was largely influenced by big business — hint, hint: grains, especially refined ones, are not necessarily the food we should eat the most of…) BUT the point here is, the idea of a balanced diet is relayed to us at an early age. It's a basic component of the education system.

However – how often are kids learning about the ingredients used in our clothes? How often are we taught that the fabric used in our garments can come from a plant grown on a farm, or from fossil fuels that are processed into thread?

There are a lot of layers at play, when it comes to who can access which clothing options. But with that in mind … we should have the right to learn basic practical knowledge about clothing in school, beginning at a young age.

Because let's be real – how many of us have finally been collecting pieces of this practical clothing knowledge as adults?

This week's guest is very passionate about the power of education – for children, for everyday people, and for business owners. In one of her most recent endeavors, she's working as the content lead for a new Fashion CEOs accelerator program that's focused on empowering fashion entrepreneurs of color to collectively solve climate change and inclusion challenges.

The focus is on transforming entrepreneurs in a more holistic way through both access to capital and access to layers of education, with the intention of helping folks build more circular fashion brands.

As this week's guest said in an article in Women's Wear Daily –

"I have not seen this in the industry … I have not seen an accelerator that speaks to circularity, that speaks to sustainability and that speaks to the BIPOC community. It's just something that's not there."

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "New Fashion CEOs Accelerator Set To Advance The Industry's Sustainable Business Models and Its Racial Representation", article in WWD that Kestrel mentions

• "You know, at the moment, every company has their sustainability manager, but it doesn't really mean anything — it's just the box they tick off. You know, they're ESG person, their social responsibility person ... not all, but a lot. So, just really making sure there's that understanding, there's that education, just the awareness." -Trish (19:45)

• "People have changed I think, in terms of how they see the value of their business. I think a lot of people feel like their business has to, for them, mean more to them than just making money. It's more about what they give back to their community in some way." -Trish (30:52)

• "In order for us to sort of think about the future, science and design need to come together. You know, about a hundred years ago, science and design and arts were kind of almost interlinked — sort of the alchemy of them all together. And then we got more industrialized and technology took over, and they just seemed to separate." -Trish (48:50)

• Hecho Por Nosotros Website >

• Sovereignty's Website >

• Follow Trish on Instagram >

• Follow Sovereignty on Instagram >

In episode 287, Kestrel welcomes Sage Paul, an award-winning artist and designer, to the show. An urban Denesuliné (Den-a-sooth-leh-nay) woman based in Toronto and a member of English River First Nation, Sage is the artistic director and founder of Indigenous Fashion Arts.

"There's all this talk about sustainability and you know buy this or buy that, but the truth is, is that these corporations that are preaching this are just making too much. They are making too much, they are mass producing it, and the way that they mass produce it is unsustainable for the Earth. And so, it just doesn't seem like they're painting the full picture for everyone. But then going back to cost — is the fact that people aren't getting paid enough in order to purchase items that are quote unquote sustainable, because the only thing that's accessible are these mass-produced items." -Sage

You may have noticed that the idea of *sustainability* is often aligned with luxury or having extra money to invest in less harmful things or less polluting options – for example, an electric car or organic produce or a more thoughtfully-made garment. These options generally cost more than the conventional option in our society.

While there are a lot of narratives challenging the eliteness of sustainability today, the mainstream conversation has been led by a very white and capitalist-centered idea that promotes buying this, instead of that product.

Like we talked about on last week's show with Kristine of Doen, the sustainability conversation has been very binary in its approach – very good vs bad, and often, oversimplifies what quote unquote sustainability could look like.

Through several conversations on the show, we've explored how resourcefulness is a grounding pillar of true sustainability. But it's not just resourcefulness, it's also culture.

As this week's guest shares, thinking sustainably and locally is innately an Indigenous cultural practice – and for many folks, it's not anything *shiny and new* to be learned – it's instead, an integral part of their own history and identity.

Of course, we all have a lot of unlearning and relearning to do – from an individual to a community to a corporate to a governmental level. At the same time – it's important to acknowledge where some of the true knowledge lies in order to collectively move forward in a less harmful way.

I love how this week's guest reminds us that it's OK to actually ask the industry to change the way it works.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "Sustainable Clothing Is Fashion-Forward. Just Ask Innovative Indigenous Designer Sage Paul", article in CBC that Kestrel mentions

• "I was raised with the values of only taking what you need and sharing those extras that you don't need. And leaving no trace behind wherever you are. Using everything of what you do take, and giving thanks to those items. There's also — in a lot of Indigenous cultures — there's the value and understanding and belief that everything is living, everything has a spirit. So in that way, you would treat things as you would a friend or a family member, even though these are inadimate objects. So, your respect for these inanimate objects become far greater than just a disposable item or a short-term item that you purchase." -Sage (11:22)

• "Changemaker Sage Paul On Building A Future For Sustainable Design", article in FashionMagazine.com that Kestrel mentions

• "Your Clothes Are The Most Political Choice You Make Every Day", TedTalk by Sage which was given in 2020

• Christian Allaire, writer at Vogue that Sage mentions — listen to the Conscious Chatter episode featuring Christian

• White Milano, trade show that Indigenous Fashion Arts is taking part in this year

• Section 35, Indigenous-owned brand that Sage mentions

• Indigenous Fashion Arts

• Follow Sage on Instagram >

• Follow Indigenous Fashion Arts on Instagram >

In episode 286, Kestrel welcomes Kristine Kim, the Director of Impact at Doen, to the show. An LA-based women-run business, Doen offers collections inspired by a nostalgia for the coastal California of decades past. Doen recently unveiled their 2030 Roadmap, spearhead by Kristine, which provides an overarching blueprint for the business that will encapsulate both social and environmental elements of impact.

"We wanted to see our supply chain as a value chain — not just as a global supply chain that creates beautiful products, but also generates social and environmental value across that process as well, and to find opportunities for us to maximize that social and environmental value." -Kristine

You've probably heard me say this on the show before, but the fashion and sustainability space has an issue with obsessing over binaries – I mean, it's not the only space constantly questioning what's right vs wrong or good vs bad.

These very simplified binary structures have been deeply embedded into our society – by way of concepts from white supremacy, colonialism, and the patriarchy. They also lead to a lot of pinning one perspective against another – which doesn't help us move forward collectively, and instead tends to force us to choose one side over the other.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, but there is a lot of gray area here — a lot of nuance that must be welcomed so we can actually get somewhere in our efforts to transform the fashion industry.

This week's guest leads impact at Doen, and she is determined to accept the challenges that come with these *gray areas*.

As she said in a recent blog post:

"Like any industry, ours is often viewed—but does not actually function—within a black and white framework of right vs. wrong, sustainable vs. unsustainable. We know that labeling any brand as a "sustainable fashion brand" is greenwashing and misleading, but have we challenged ourselves beyond this? Every business on a sustainability journey will be confronted with a series of complex micro and macro decisions, often on a daily basis. The "right" answer for each organization looks different, and requires collective problem-solving and collaboration. Weighing all of the various trade-offs involved in any single action is the real impact work facing companies."

This acknowledgement is key and I find it so refreshing coming straight from a Director Of Impact. She's recently unveiled the company's 2030 Roadmap, which represents their desire to do better in an imperfect industry.

Quotes & links from the conversation:

• "Kristine Kim On Defining Impact For Doen", blog post Kristine wrote about the 2030 Roadmap

• "The main intention that I wanted to communicate to the organization was — this type of value chain work, this type of sustainability work in fashion is very not straightforward, it's nuanced, multiple shades of gray, it's not a black and white binary, right or wrong, you're sustainable or you're unsustainable. And trying to get comfortable with that level of ambiguity and unfamiliarity is what I really wanted the teams to openly embrace." -Kirstine (21:38)

• Empower@Work, collaborative effort that Doen has joined

• Doen's 2030 Roadmap

• Hand Me Doen

• Follow Doen on Instagram >