Conversations as you Go

In this episode, we continue our series with Roy Moran, focusing on how to develop a healthy, sustainable lifestyle as a disciple-maker. Jesus said, “I have come that you might have life and have it to the full” (John 10:10). Abundant life is meant to be the fruit of following and being transformed by Him — yet many of us feel tired, overextended, and constantly busy.

Indian movement leaders often say, “Busyness is the enemy of movements.” They say that being BUSY can stand for Being Under Satan’s Yoke. When we are always busy, we lose space for the most important people and the most fruitful work. Prioritising our time is not optional — it is essential.

Rethinking Productivity: The 80/20 Principle

Roy explores the Pareto Principle — the idea that roughly 80% of our results come from 20% of our activity.

The challenge is not simply to do more, but to identify what is truly fruitful. Roy invites us to “objectify” our time — to get it out of our heads and onto paper. When we list everything we are doing and evaluate where the real fruit lies, we often discover that some activities carry disproportionate impact.

The goal is not to run faster, but to remove what is ineffective and intentionally focus on what produces lasting fruit. This is about life management that fits the spirit of movement — doing things intentionally, not accidentally. What we require is intentional systems — because systems sustain what goals alone cannot.

Whole-Life Health

The conversation extends beyond ministry strategy into holistic living: marriage, singleness, emotional health, finances, and long-term sustainability. Roy asks, “What is the irreducible minimum in your world to be healthy and whole — so that what you are replicating is worthy of being replicated?”.

Finances: Financial health, especially for supported workers, is part of running the race well. At the same time, we will not see the Great Commission fulfilled without disciple-making in the marketplace. 

Marriage, Singleness & Support: Roy and others in the room share candid reflections on navigating calling as couples and singles. Whether married or single, sustainable disciple-making requires relationships that keep us grounded and honest.

Reflection questions from this episode: 

What would it look like to create a life plan that prioritises what truly matters?

What needs to shift so you can run this race with endurance for decades to come?

How can you build regular, intentional systems of reflection and assessment to maintain your long-term health, focus, and effectiveness?

Resource

In this episode, Roy references Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans — a playbook for applying design thinking to your own life.

In this episode, we continue listening to Roy Moran’s 2025 training with us as Praxeis leaders, exploring a critical idea: momentum comes before movement.

Roy grounds the conversation in Proverbs 27:23:

“Be sure you know the condition of your flocks, give careful attention to your herds.”

Movements can easily be treated like machines — measured by outputs, numbers, and generations. But disciple-making movements are not factories. They are about inner transformation. Jesus changes people first; multiplication follows.

Momentum Before Movement

One of Roy’s key insights:

“There is a period of momentum before there is a period of movement… We are immature in measuring momentum.”

We often try to measure movement — new groups, multiplication, generations. But in the early stages, there’s very little visible fruit. Instead of measuring outcomes, we need to measure health and obedience.

What does momentum look like?

People living with an “I will…” posture toward Jesus

Regular listening and responding to God

Obedience becoming a lifestyle

Spiritual conversations flowing naturally

Slowing down enough to hear God clearly

Before someone becomes a multiplying disciple-maker, they must first learn to simply be a disciple.

Managing the Tension

There’s an ongoing tension between:

Systematic measurement (growth, numbers), and

Organic care (knowing the condition of people’s hearts).

Roy reminds us this tension isn’t a problem to solve but a tension to manage. Healthy leadership means accepting we’ll never have everything covered. It requires walking in the Spirit, not striving for perfect balance.

People Are Not Objects

When we overemphasize metrics, people can subtly become numbers. Roy urges us to remember: people are subjects, not objects. The goal is not activity but transformation.

Especially in church contexts, building momentum can take time. Tradition can slow things down. That’s why we must prioritise depth before speed.

As David Watson said:

“Go slow to go fast.”

Build quality in disciples — and the generations will come.

Key Takeaway

Push movement metrics to the side in the early phase.Learn to recognise and celebrate momentum in the internal life — Word, Spirit, obedience, passion.

Movement flows from transformation.

‘What signs of spiritual transformation might indicate that real momentum is already forming in me and in those I’m walking with — even if visible movement hasn’t appeared yet?’

In this episode, Roy continues sharing from our time together about starting apostolic teams and navigating the real challenges of collaboration.

Starting Apostolic Teams

This builds on Roy’s previous insights about forming teams made up of different roles — including movement catalysers, DMM strategists, prayer mobilisers, learning designers, coaching cultivators, apostolic pioneers, and disciple-makers.

He describes these as different “swim lanes” — distinct expressions of gifting that allow people to run in their grace and calling while contributing to a shared mission.

Roy observes that many people from Christian backgrounds tend to be permission-seeking, whereas harvest-field people often are not. As leaders, we need to intentionally give churched believers permission — again and again — to step into and express the gifting they carry in our contexts.

Multiplying prayer 

Roy then shares from his Kansas City context about cultivating replicating prayer:

“It’s not about the volume but the distinctiveness of prayer [that’s focused on lostness].” – RoyRather than simply increasing activity, the focus is on prayer that is harvest-focused and easily reproducible.

Collaboration

Roy also explores how to build teams through meaningful collaboration. He references five conditions for collective impact drawn from research out of Stanford University:

Common Agenda – A shared understanding of the problem and a shared vision for change.Shared Measurement for Success – One of the biggest challenges in Christianity, especially when we assume we are doing the same thing but measure differently.Mutually Reinforcing Activities – Training and mobilisation are difficult if they are not aligned with a common agenda and shared measures.Continuous Communication – Learning to communicate consistently, not just when we are face-to-face. Creating a “campfire” platform (online) where stories and resources can be shared.A Backbone Structure – A brand-light (or brand-bashful) organisation that exists to support and strengthen leaders rather than promote itself.

Roy concludes:

“We need to define who we are so we can defend who we are. But this allows us to collaborate more, not less… We can create tables for anybody to come. We can create tools that anybody can use. But when we create tracks for people to run on, they are very distinct.” – Roy

Be Encouraged

Be provoked and encouraged as you listen to this episode — and consider what it might look like to start apostolic teams and cultivate collaboration across your city, your nation, and even the nations.

In this episode, we continue on with Roy Moran’s teaching as we look at the different roles in movements as we birth teams. It's important to know that we cannot do it alone. Our first question after God gives us a vision is always “who?” as we seek to replicate leadership in teams. Constant sharpening and failing in movement teams is crucial. If we don’t take risks, then there’s no need for faith. 

So at the start of this year as we seek to hear from God and commit to stepping out what he is saying, we begin by listening to Roy share how we can birth teams filled with different roles. 

Do we something feel like this?

(Image Provided by Thinkstock. Lisa F. Young)

Different roles in movements

Movement Catalyst 

DMM Strategist 

Prayer Mobiliser

Learning Designers 

Coaching Cultivator 

Apostolic Pioneer 

Disciple Maker

Culture

But we also hear Roy share about culture. Even though we need to train a lot, training itself is not the answer. Instead culture is what is needed to move forward. It's not a training problem that we have. Instead it’s a culture that we need to create. 

“Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” (Peter Drucker) 

“Culture is built by language and ritual” (Roy). These are the habits that people replicate. We can’t just take the training on DBS, program it and plant it in the soil of a different type of culture and then somehow expect to see movements start. 

3 ways to to plant a movement culture

Plant disciple making inside the good soil of an existing church culture. This requires spaces where people are already completely bent towards lostness.

“Everyone has a heart for disciple making. Only few have a stomach for it” (Roy). This is because it will cost church leaders their people and their money.

Plant it alongside an existing church culture. Needs to be encouraged and fostered. 

Plant it apart from an existing church culture. Release the radicals by supporting and encouraging them. 

Questions to think about at the end of this episode

Are you creating team by bringing people around you? 

Are these people becoming replicators?

As we race toward the end of 2025 and look ahead to 2026, many of us find ourselves taking stock — of our year, our ministry, and even our own sense of worth. How are you feeling right now? Encouraged? Tired? Discouraged? In this our episode for the year, Roy Moran brings a timely and deeply pastoral word that calls us back to what we are truly worth — not based on our activity, outcomes, or perceived success, but on what God has already declared and paid for. Roy encourages us to reflects on Romans 8:15–39. Dave will read the full passage at the end of the episode, creating space for you to reflect, pray, and give thanks as we approach Christmas.

We often don’t need more information — we need reminding. As Patrick Henry famously said, “People need to be reminded more than they need to be informed.”

Too often, our sense of worth is quietly shaped by our activity. We compare ourselves to others in the room — those with larger platforms, greater influence, or more visible disciple-making fruit — and we begin to measure ourselves accordingly. Roy names this for what it is: a deeply destructive way of living. The gospel proclaims something radically different. Every human being is worth the blood of Jesus. The most significant relationship in all eternity — the relationship between the Father and the Son — was put into question so that we could be brought into God’s family. That is the value the Father places on us.

Even if we experience extraordinary success in ministry or movement outcomes, our worth never increases. We are worth exactly what was paid on the cross — nothing more, nothing less.

Roy also challenges our learning and leadership cultures. If confession and repentance are absent — especially repentance from idols like ministry numbers, performance, or operating out of the flesh — we subtly drift back into a works-based mindset. Peace and freedom come when we remember that our worth is never on trial. It is not dependent on our effort, outcomes, or legacy.

Our identity is secure:I am a child of the Most High.I am precious to Him.He will never leave me or forsake me.

Whether or not we ever see a disciple-making movement, God’s invitation remains the same: to live as beloved and faithful sons and daughters. Romans 8:15–39 - questions for reflection

What identity does Paul highlight in Romans 8?Spend some time in quiet contemplation before God.Is there anything the Spirit is inviting you to confess or repent of?

May this episode help you end the year grounded in grace, identity, and the unshakeable love of the Father.

In this episode, we continue our series drawing from our training with Roy Moran and Aila Tasse. In this conversation, Roy shares the importance of focusing on the generators in disciple-making movements and reflects on several key shifts in his thinking and practice. He begins by telling parts of his own story and how he became involved in movements around the world.

Key Shifts in Roy’s Thinking & Practice

Conversion vs. Discovery & Disciple-MakingRoy highlights the difference between aiming for a moment of conversion versus facilitating discovery through disciple-making. He notes that the “line of faith” concept has shaped much of Western thinking, yet it’s not something we actually see in the Gospels. Discovery Bible Studies—often led by those who aren’t yet followers of Jesus—play a crucial role here.

Faith in Function, Not FormInstead of focusing on structures or models, Roy urges us to trust the function of disciple-making. When we start with making disciples, ekklesia—church as Jesus intended—naturally emerges.

Groups Over IndividualsMovements multiply through groups, not isolated individuals. Catalysts fuel multiplication, while what Roy calls “accidental diminishers” slow it down.

Marketers vs. Terrorists (Revolutionaries)Roy draws a striking analogy: marketers are loud and central, while revolutionaries are subtle, quiet, and operate at the edges, identifying people who are already open to change. They are also needs-focused. He warns that our well-intended spirituality can sometimes get in the way of our humanness—and that curiosity, especially in the West, has become a lost art.

Learning Designers vs. Content ProvidersRoy re-examines what we mean by the biblical gift of teaching. Is it merely telling? Research shows that questions, not statements, facilitate genuine learning. Movements thrive when we design ways for people to discover rather than receive information passively.

Leading People Toward vs. Leading AwayCatalytic leaders create processes where “it can’t happen without me, but it can’t depend on me.” This becomes a litmus test for our methods:Can people do this themselves, and can they pass it on?

Focus on the Generators, Not the Generations

Roy emphasizes that one of our common mistakes is focusing on generations (how many steps down the line) instead of generators—the multipliers who spark ongoing reproduction. When we cultivate generators, the generations take care of themselves.

He illustrates this with the pandemic’s “R number,” which showed how quickly a virus could spread. Christianity, he suggests, can sometimes inoculate people from the very thing it’s meant to spread—we become addicted to visible success and move on when things don’t seem to be working.

But movements don’t emerge from quick wins.They are formed through long periods of small, consistent acts of obedience, which eventually become visible. Roy calls us back to staying faithful to the basics of disciple-making—and to keeping our eyes on the generators.

After hearing from Roy Moran last week, in this podcast we start a series of receiving a training from Roy and Aila Tasse. Roy and Aila brought clarity and the heart of God the Father as we received their input in Melbourne recently over two weeks.  In this episode, Roy shares on not falling in love with the practice of DMM but with the heart of God.

The Lovesick Father’s Heart

He asks us two questions to answer from Luke 15:20-24 (the returning of the prodigal son): 

What does this tell us about the heart of this earthly father in the story?

What does this tell us about the heart of God?

“And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.” 

Our core motivation for disciple making is this: We serve a lovesick Father who is desperate to regather his family.

We need to fall in love with the problem not the solution: When we fall in love with disciple making tactics, we fail to realise that they are not what generates passion. Only a connection with the lovesick Father’s heart for his lost children will bring people passion and motivation.

Becoming part of the Father’s business: Its not as simple as saying ‘prayer starts movements’. Instead, as we grow closer to the Father’s heart for his children, we will become part of the family business. 

God is generous: The reason the trinity created us is so that we could share in the life and community that they have. God is desperate to see those who have fallen out of this community to be pulled back into it.

Roy and his wife Candy, and a group of four others started Shoal Creek Community Church in 1992.

Dave speaks with Roy Moran about fresh opportunities for disciple-making and movements in Western contexts like Australia and New Zealand. Roy reflects on several key shifts that shaped his own journey:

Key Shifts Roy Made

From belief to obedience.Jesus’ invitation “follow me” and His final command to “obey everything I have commanded you” show that disciple-making is about getting people in front of God’s Word and helping them obey and share it.

Re-gospelling.Forgiveness is part of the gospel—but not the whole. The fuller gospel shapes how we love people as humans first, before trying to be spiritually impressive.

Seeing the gospel move away from us.Jesus sent His disciples out. We need to make the shift of seeing the gospel move away from us rather than attracting people towards us.

Confidence in the Word and Spirit alone.God’s Word ahas power without our explanations—especially when paired with obedience and sharing. The Spirit enables people to obey and to also share their story, not just their “faith.”

Not persuading but loving.Disciple-making in the West requires listening, connecting, and understanding others. Then if people give God’s Word and Spirit access, He works in their lives.

Final Word of Encouragement from Roy Moran

“Jesus had a dream of bringing heaven to earth…What would it be like if we were to learn from [where movements are exploding] and begin to implement some of the strategies of multiplying disciples? I think it is possible!…I’m seeing it in my own world right now… I know it can happen here and I know it can happen with you!”

In this episode, Dave catches up with Shodankeh Johnson, an apostolic leader from Sierra Leone, well known from the Engage Africa videos. Shodankeh has seen disciples in his nation grow from just a handful to half a million. During a recent conference in America, Dave asked Shodankeh to share a word of encouragement and greeting, focusing on the need to see the passion, power, and fire of God flow through us—not just relying on the right methods. This, Shodankeh reminds us, is key for breakthrough in the West, where movements of multiplication are longed for.

Shodankeh reminds us that God is always in us, and that His reward is sure. “Yes, it can be tough, but it can be done. With God, all things are possible. He is the impossibility specialist.”

He emphasizes the importance of prayer: “Pray as if everything depends on you, and pray as if everything depends on God. God will shake the foundation of the wicked one. A time is coming when we will see rapid multiplication of disciples, churches, leaders, and groups across the western world.”

Shodankeh encourages us to be strong and courageous and never give up, quoting Hebrews 11:6: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” He calls faith the currency of heaven, the foundation from which multiplication of disciples will come. This, he says, is the love language of a disciple-making movement.

He shares a stirring call to pursue the fire of God:

“In this generation, we need to pray that God will use us. The fire of God is very important. We will see this when we spend quality time in His presence. There is no rush hour with God. Be hungry for His Word and His presence. Cry out for it as you would for food and water. When you do, the fire of God will come upon your life. This is what makes the difference—not the strategies of disciple-making movements. The first disciples in Acts were ordinary people, but the presence of God and the fire in them made all the difference. Be hungry for that fire. It’s not the size of the fire, but how many fires you can light.”

Shodankeh closes by praying for the fire of God to come upon us and flow through us, empowering ordinary people to make an extraordinary impact for Christ.

This podcast we listen to a commissioning from movement leaders in third world contexts that will deeply encourage us as disciple makers and leaders.

Jesus commissioned his disciples saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20). This spoke deeply into the disciples' spirits as they started to obey his commission. It brought all of Jesus' ministry and teaching together. It had all come to this. The disciples knew that this was what they were called to do.

In this episode you will hear a commissioning given by several movement leaders (who are remain nameless mainly due to security) from Africa and elsewhere in the world. These are the final statements from a powerful meeting of movement leaders encouraging one another.

They cover:

What is DMM (and what it is not): How movement is the multiplication of disciples and churches.

The call to go into difficult places and even suffer for Jesus.

The encouragement that we should never be satisfied: To go for the highest - nothing less than God wants to accomplish.

How the call that is for ordinary people.

The need to collaborate and network.

As you listen to each leader share and pray, be deeply encouraged and empowered in your spirit. Let these prayers become your prayers.