Conversing with Mark Labberton

"I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical."

"The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison."

"That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do."

—Jonathan Rauch, from the episode

We're at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life.

In his new book, Jonathan Rauch "reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity." He "addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances."

Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.

He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize.

In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss:

• Republican virtue
• What Jesus and James Madison have in common
• The political idolatry of secularism
• The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church
• The political orientation of the church in exile
• Tyrannical fear
• The Morman church's example of civic theology "of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation"
• The promise of power in exchange for loyalty

About Jonathan Rauch

Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.

Show Notes

• Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy
• The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth
• Reasonable, civic mindedness
• "Graciousness toward a faith you don't share."
• "Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it."
• The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh
• 2003 Atlantic article: "The dumbest thing I ever wrote" celebrating secularism in America ("Let It Be," The Atlantic, May 2003)
• " It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning."
• Political idolatry of secularism
• "A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity's crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that's why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity."
• "Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…"
• "The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison."
• Mark's description of his father: " My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. … What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day."
• "God's capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love"
• Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus?
• "Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy."
• "Republican virtues" (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic
• Christianity's role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom
• "When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder."
• "The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted."
• "The sharp church is … where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party."
• Divisive and polarizing
• "The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values."
• Church of fear
• Fear of demographic decline
• Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left
• Fear of emasculation
• Plain old political fear: "Our side needs to win."
• Fear as a major theme of the Bible
• Fear of God as "the beginning of wisdom"
• "A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned."
• Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church
• "The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish."
• "Tyrannical fear"—a drive for dominance
• "Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do."
• "Fear casts out love."
• Trump administration['s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy."
• The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile
• Isaiah 58: " Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?"
• "Exilic Church"
• " Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics."
• "It can't be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically."
• "The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power."
• [Trump] is saying, "I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty."
• Comparing Trump's transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) "If you vote for me, you will have power" with the temptation of Christ in the desert: "All of this will be yours if you bow down to me."
• Transactional relationship with power
• The Mormon church's " civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation"
• Jesus: "Don't be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other."
• Madisonian liberalism: "Don't panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don't seek retribution if you win, share the country."
• "When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, 'It would be a good idea.'"
• Black church and MLK Jr.—"emphasis on Reverend"
• "You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek."
• Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural example

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?" (Mark Labberton, from this episode)

"What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body." (Yuval Levin, from this episode)

" I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person." (Yuval Levin, from this episode)

The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump's second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional?

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump's first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers.

Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He's founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.

Together they discuss:

• The authority of the Constitution over the presidency
• The importance of character in the office of the president
• The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach
• What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now
• The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices
• Why we should worry, but not panic

About Yuval Levin

Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.

At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish.

Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President's Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels.

In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024).

He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago.

Show Notes

• A time of "presidential gigantism"
• "Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?"
• Pluralism and vigorous debate
• Swamping a weak, divided Congress
• Separation of Powers
• Legislature vs Executive Branch
• " Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative."
• "What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body."
• Performative nature of political roles
• "Random grab-bag of power plays."
• Fear of a "lawless president"
• "The beginning of a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal."
• " It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out."
• Elon Musk as Pseudo-President
• " The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government."
• " When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes."
• Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check?
• Overturning Chevron deference
• "Character is destiny."
• " I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person."
• " The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways."
• "In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go."
• " My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office."
• Presidential overreach
• Loyalty tests and punishment
• " What the president really does is make hard decisions."
• Having room for opposition
• "Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on."
• Alarm Bells
• First: "The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order."
• Second: "Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency."
• Third: "It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes."
• Character and mindset
• Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person.
• Dangers on the horizon
• Checks and balances
• Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term?
• "On the whole our institutions have proven fairly strong."
• "It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …"
• Yuval Levin's American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again
• What is the voice of citizenship right now?
• Appropriations
• "Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment."
• "I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure."
• "Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress."
• "President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican."
• A variety of voices
• "In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system."
• "The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?"
• "God Bless America."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don't know you. I don't know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don't understand how you have experienced life. I don't share in that emotional moment. I don't have that same vocabulary. I don't have that same life experience." (Mark Labberton, from this episode)

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that "I am not you."

He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange.

Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of "differentiated others," listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we're likely to gain.

Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker's interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved.

About Conversing Shorts

"In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me."

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation
• The adventure of knowing another person
• Mature listening
• Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation
• Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange
• "A chance to be more than our mere selves."
• We're each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc.
• Understanding the volley or back-and-forth
• "Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we're preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That's something else. That's about plotting and planning, or it's about fear, or it's about anxiety …"
• Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions.
• "The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don't know you. I don't know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don't understand how you have experienced life. I don't share in that emotional moment. I don't have that same vocabulary. I don't have that same life experience."
• What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people
• Listening is an unmasking of presumption.
• Exposing our presumptions
• Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other
• Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley
• "These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"I'm one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next." (Megan Katerjian, from the episode)

What is it like to lose your house in a fire?

The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed.

Today's guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family's northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry.

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like.

Together they discuss:

• Megan's story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire
• The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it
• Megan's work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: "One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children."
• The meaning of a social safety network
• The effect of trauma on decision-making
• What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing
• The social and economic impact of homelessness
• The difference between financial and relational poverty
• And how you can help those affected by the Eaton Fire

If you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary's Wind and Fire Resources page.

Additional links:

Summary of Eaton Fire

City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates

About Megan Katerjian

Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California.

Megan holds two master's degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor's degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management.

Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025.

Show Notes

• Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives
• Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires
• Temporary housing to transitional housing
• "I'm one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next."
• Integrating Jesus and justice
• How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless
• The power-control cycle single mothers face
• A mother's story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment
• Altadena's fires
• Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena
• "It's about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space."
• Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort
• "I don't think I've ever sobbed that hard in my life."
• Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace
• How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California
• Self-care
• "I can't watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering."
• Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces
• Being with people who went through the same experience
• Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California
• "I talked to God in very distracted conversations."
• "The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me."
• Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness
• The irony of learning about homeless
• The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing
• "What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma."
• The "Social Service Shuffle": good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc.
• FEMA and "a sea of cots"
• "If I had nothing in my bank account and didn't have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now."
• "Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it's about relational poverty."
• The benefits of a thick social safety network
• Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood
• Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes
• Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher?
• Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena
• "The economics look a little different."
• Three families in the same home—"what does their social safety network look like?"
• Door of Hope pivoting to create the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program
• Working with FEMA and home insurance
• Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love
• Self-care as restorative rather than selfish
• A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern California

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump's second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you're filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic?

Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary).

Together they discuss:

The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office;

The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment;

Repentance, repair, and understanding;

How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life;

Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern;

What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art);

Learning disagreement in a post-civility era;

Peacemaking instead of polarization;

Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal;

And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office.

About Peter Wehner

Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.

Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.

Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called "a model of conscientious political engagements." Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.

About Anne Snyder

Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information.

For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.

Anne also oversees Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).

About David Goatley

David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).

In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.

Show Notes

• What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens
• "Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing."
• Pete Wehner: a first-generation American
• From ideals to reality about the history of America
• " I'm the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be."
• "Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment."
• The scene for Inauguration Day 2021
• Strength and vitality of American life
• What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years?
• "Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I'm happy to say, welcome to my world."
• The posture of believers and people of good will to "keep a moral ethical grounding"
• "Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless"
• Pulled in different directions
• Eugene Peterson formulation: "There's the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way."
• Called to be different things at different moments
• Name reality as best we can
• "Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?"
• Will there be a World War III in the next decade?
• Creative ways to develop resilience
• "A great chastening"
• "I feel both curious and really concerned."
• When patience runs out
• " I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things."
• The shifting global stage
• The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn't stop listening or caring
• What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment?
• Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective.
• Turning off the news
• National Gallery of Art's Impressionist exhibit (link)
• "For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency."
• Jon Batiste
• "Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem"
• Are we living in the post-civility era?
• Peacemaking instead of polarization
• Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal
• "Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world"
• " I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there's reconstruction."
• "There's a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late '60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world."
• Prayers for Donald Trump
• That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders
• That "Not our will but Thy will be done."
• For moral sensitivity
• "I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life."
• "We're part of a story, and there's an author. … But those chapters aren't the whole story."
• A notorious chapter in American history

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"The Good News is still good news."

"I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn't win and doesn't lose based on a political party winning or losing."

(Walter Kim, from this episode)

How does evangelicalism relate to the dominant political powers of our world?

In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes Walter Kim to Conversing. As the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and host of the Difficult Conversations podcast, Walter holds on to deep Christian orthodoxy alongside the most vigorous and necessary intellectual, personal, ethical, and theological reflections, offering a vision of leadership and spiritual-moral imagination to bolster the future of evangelicalism.

Together they discuss:

Christianity, pluralism, and polarization

The fraught meaning of "evangelicalism" in America and what it means to be a "good news person" in this political moment

The human impulse to wield power and the temptation of evangelicals to join with empire

The Christian underpinnings of the American nation's founding and the necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism

How evangelicals are retelling and recasting the story of the gospel in today's political climate

About Walter Kim

Walter Kim serves as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a role he's held since January of 2020. Previously, he was the pastor of Boston's historic Park Street Church, and has served other churches in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Charlottesville, Virginia, and as a campus chaplain at Yale University. He received a BA from Northwestern University, an MDiv from Regent College, and a PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern languages and civilizations. He hosts the Difficult Conversations podcast.

Show Notes

• Long-term faithfulness to the gospel in the maelstrom of challenges and difficulties
• "My experience has been one of extremes. … There is the lived reality of polarization, at which I find often myself right in the centre."
• "Sober self-assessment … one should always, as a Christian, be self-suspicious: Am I compromising? … Am I responding in faith or out of fear?"
• "Purveyor of the good news in action."
• "Our labour in Christ is not in vain … ultimately Christ remains Lord and Savior of all."
• The word "evangelical" and the state of US evangelicalism
• What does it mean to be a "good news person"?
• World Evangelical Alliance General Assembly
• Laussane and a gathering of five thousand evangelicals from around the world
• "It's not a branding issue. It's a substance issue."
• "Global church with a polycentric distribution of leadership and resources"
• "Whatever our maelstrom and vortex may be in America, it pales in comparison to what brothers and sisters are experiencing throughout the world."
• "I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn't win and doesn't lose based on a political party winning or losing."
• Religious community vs "the other"
• How does the church relate to dominant powers?
• Image of God is not just an abstract idea
• "The democratization of the image of God to all people—not just to the rulers—was a profoundly prophetic statement."
• Tower of Babel: A story not just about hubris, but about hoarding power and the ways political imperialism can use religion for its own purposes.
• "This is not a uniquely American problem. … This is a problem of humanity."
• Evangelicals who have given themselves to empire
• Marring God's image and remaking God in our own image
• Pluralism and Christianity
• The capacity for self-reflection
• The Christian underpinnings of the American nation's founding, and the rise of Christian nationalism
• "What's different now is the pluralism."
• The necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism
• Ingredient 1: The belief that America was founded as a Christian nation
• Ingredient 2: A sense or feeling of loss
• Ingredient 3: The answer to regaining what you lost is political
• Descriptive versus prescriptive: Was America founded as a Christian nation?
• Hope in the loving and just reign of God
• No national church: "living under their own vine and fig tree."
• The reason we don't privilege Christianity in the Constitution
• Lilly Endowment project
• "The Good News is still good news."
• "Retelling and recasting the story … as a message of hope."
• " This initiative is an opportunity for us to tell the beautiful story of Jesus, while not neglecting the ways that story has been marred."
• Luke 4: Jesus's first public speech. " The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the oppressed. And to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"An attentive, earnest ear."

"We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another."

"Entering the room listening gave me an opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. … It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure."

(Mark Labberton, from this episode)

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton offers a principle he learned from his parents: enter the room listening. He reflects on the purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point; the character of Christian listening and what it means to be a "listening disciple" rather than a "speaking disciple"; what listening does for the speaker; some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment; and the observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of this advice.

About Conversing Shorts

"In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me."

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• How Mark's parents taught him from an early age to "enter the room listening."
• Start by paying attention to others.
• The gift of listening and hospitality
• What listening does for the speaker
• "It gave the speaker permission to go on."
• "We're in a crisis of conversation in our culture."
• "An attentive, earnest ear."
• The purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point
• The character of Christian listening and what it means to be a "listening disciple" rather than a "speaking disciple"
• " When I became a Christian, I was stunned by the fact that Jesus had so much to say and that I had so little clue about what it was that He was describing."
• " I was called to be a listening disciple, not a speaking disciple."
• "We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another."
• "What I'm bringing into the room only occasionally should be the thing of first importance. Instead, I think what I realized was that the thing of first importance was what was already happening in the room and that I was getting to join and find a place in it."
• Some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment
• The observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of entering the room listening
• Emotional attunement and "reading the room"
• Enhanced experience of the speaker and their words
• "And I was just aware that I was at a feast. And that I would want to share in all that the room had to offer."
• "I learned a lot about my parents by watching how my parents would listen to their guests and how they would treat their guests."
• "Entering the room listening gave me an opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. … It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!"

(Jemar Tisby, from the episode)

The African-American Christian tradition often celebrates an all-night Watch Night service on New Year's Eve. But where does this beautiful liturgical practice come from? It dates all the way back to December 31, 1862, on the eve of the Emancipation Proclamation going into effect the following day.

In this episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to reflect on the history of the New Year's Eve Watch Night service.

Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky.

Recent Books by Jemar Tisby

The Spirit of Justice *Available now

I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025

*Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children's book releasing January 7, 2025

About Jemar Tisby

Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of the new book The Spirit of Justice, the New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby.

Show Notes

• The Color of Compromise (available here)—the larger narrative of (Christian) America's racist history
• Watch Night Services—spending all night at church on New Year's Eve
• Black Christian tradition dating back to Emancipation Proclamation on December 31, 1862
• "The time between when Lincoln announced the proclamation, and when it went into effect on January 1st, 1863, was a time of tense anticipation and uncertainty."
• " What people were concerned about was, would the Confederates come back and make a deal with Lincoln?"
• "What I like to encourage people to do is put yourself back in that moment as best you can. You have been part of a group of people that have been enslaved since your feet first hit the shores of North America, that generations of your family members, friends, church members have been enslaved, have been enslaved, prayed for freedom, have tried to escape to freedom, have been punished for trying to escape or organize for freedom. And finally, in this massive conflagration called the Civil War, you get the president of the United States saying that you will be free at this certain time. And all of those hopes, all of those prayers, all of those dreams, all of those longings are concentrated in the moments before midnight."
• "And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!"
• "It was in the context of a Christian religion. And so they were understanding this in the context of the Exodus and the Hebrews being freed from Pharaoh through God's intervention. And they're being freed from the pharaohs of the plantation to the promised land of freedom. And they sang spiritual songs and hymns. And ever since then, there's been a tradition of Black Christians gathering on New Year's Eve to have Watch Night service, to celebrate freedom, to anticipate the coming year and to ask for God's blessing."
• " May the joy of remembering the power of the Emancipation Proclamation help motivate us as we think about our work and our life in this coming year."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare's dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do."

(Mark Labberton, from this episode)

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton shares about his annual ritual of re-reading William Shakespeare's King Lear, a practice to see darkness as well as see light. Mark reads from his December 23, 2020 essay in The Atlantic, and comments on King Lear's dark exploration of the dissolution of family and friendship, personality, and nation.

Here Mark reflects on Advent as a season of waiting in the dark, before the light of Incarnation is known and beheld; the vulnerability and struggle of the human condition we all share—and King Lear's ability to reveal it; the value of staring directly into the darkness; and importance of finding a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it.

About Conversing Shorts

"In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me."

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• "Why I Read King Lear Each Advent," by Mark Labberton, The Atlantic, December 23, 2020
• "Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare's dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do."
• " Paying attention provokes and distills our humanity. But our distractibility is relentless, especially today, and it may be exceeded only by our capacity for denial."
• The vulnerable pulse and impulse of being human
• " My soul trembles as King Lear names and exposes human greediness for love, combustibly combined with the treacherousness of our own self interest. It all hits rather too closely to home, speaking not just to Shakespeare's time but to ours as well, speaking not just to Lear's struggles but to our own."
• The shocking immediacy of King Lear, still felt 400 years later
• Hearkening back to the darkness of the COVID-19 pandemic
• "Resilient, sacrificing beauties of being human"
• Collective groaning, lament, and grief
• Seeing our troubles acutely, undistracted by hope
• "The waiting and the darkness begin to give way to hope. And then Christmas is here."
• " We need to find a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it. To be able to stare in safety. Which brings me back to Lear. Being absorbed in the darkness of that story has taught me to breathe in the presence of darkness in our story. In other words, Lear helps me see, feel, and measure life differently."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It's really hard to think beyond that."

"We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide."

—Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode

In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict.

Today we're exploring a Palestinian perspective.

Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac's bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of "Christ in the Rubble"—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar.

Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness.

A Message from Mark Labberton

Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I'm paraphrasing): It's not just that it's complicated (which it is), it's actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people.

By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time.

Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint.

Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza.

This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world's attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies.

The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war.

In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians.

About Munther Isaac

Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology.

He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation.

His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025.

He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women's ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member.

Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.

Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid.

Follow him on X @muntherisaac.

Show Notes

• The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East
• "It's very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people."
• Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans
• "Christ in the Rubble"—the one-year anniversary
• Munther Isaac's Christmas sermon, "Christ Under the Rubble" Video
• A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: "No war"
• " I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed."
• "We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that's taking place in front of the whole world to see."
• Fourteen months of non-stop bombing
• "We're still feeling the anger."
• "We're still feeling the pain. We're still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human."
• "We couldn't go to church as normal."
• " It's our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I'm a Christian minister. I don't like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more."
• Freedom to speak out: "You can't say these things in public."
• Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews
• " This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of 'we're superior, we're better, we're entitled,' and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame."
• " At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we're paying the price for what happened on someone else's land? We're paying the price."
• Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies
• Jesus's politically charged environment
• Violence, just wWar theory, and "the justice of God"
• Using children as human shields for militants
• " We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn't like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian."
• "What theology would bring comfort?"
• Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through "the least of these"
• " 'Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.' So he's clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry."
• Hopes for peace
• "I'm going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this."
• "They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed."
• Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide
• The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine
• " And it's important to say these things. Because if we don't say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists."
• Munther Isaac's thoughts on the Zionist movement
• Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emerge

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.