Our guest today does something I’ve been looking for in a guest on this podcast for a long time–he helps beginning copywriters get started and become success.

Matthew Volkwyn is a coach, copywriter, marketer and entrepreneur. He doesn’t just talk the talk; he walks the walk.

Matt has helped dozens of business coaches rapidly grow their own businesses with email marketing, a he’s built three six-figure businesses of his own.

I invited Matt on after he had me as a guest on his podcast, and I found out he coaches beginning copywriters, which I don’t do myself, since my clients are more experienced copywriters and business owners who use copy.

I suggested he come on and we have a nuts and bolts conversation about coaching copywriters, and he readily agreed.

Matthew’s links:

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/matthewjvolkwyn

Copy Systems:

https://www.skool.com/copysystems/about

Copy Dojo:

https://www.copydojo.com/

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Have you ever been in a meeting where people are brainstorming ideas, and each idea is more idiotic and off-target than the last one?

It has happened to all of us.

And if you’re an experienced copywriter, sometimes it’s hard to bite your tongue.

Because the cheerful but inexperienced leader of the meeting has announced a rule:

“There are no bad ideas!”

Well, yes there are.

In that meeting, you just heard a whole pile of them.

I can almost guarantee what the problem was.

There are several steps, including a crucial step, that everyone in the meeting never took.

Falling in love with uninformed, aimless creativity is one of the biggest causes of wasted advertising dollars imaginable.

And I’m going to tell you that missing piece, that missing step.

I can’t promise that everyone in the next meeting will take it ahead of time.

But if they do, I promise you’ll get much better ideas, even if you’re the only copywriter there.

Books:

Applied Imagination, by Alex Osborn https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CXTZ84/

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich, by David Garfinkel https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00513MQ2G

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Legendary NY Yankee Yogi Berra said it best:

“It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”

He’s right, you know.

But there’s one important exception, and I don’t blame Yogi because, as talented a player and a coach as he was, Yogi wasn’t a copywriter.

So he didn’t know about the important exception we’ll talk about today: showing your prospect a compelling future.

Not every copywriter does this, but if you don’t, you’re missing out… on conversions.

And even if you do, we’re going to talk about a better way to show a compelling future than most people are currently using.

If you like the stories on today’s show and you’d like to find out about a lot more, that will really power up your copy, let me invite you to check out my book The Persuasion Story Code.

It’s on Amazon and we’ll put a link in the show notes.

The Persuasion Story Code

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

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A little over a month ago we did a last-minute podcast about an audacious experiment our special guest today, Nick O’Connor, did with Glenn Fisher and the financial publishing giant Marketwise:

Glenn told us how they put together a special program called Financial Copy U, which would train 12 copywriters ABSOLUTELY FREE on how to write copy for financial publishers.

With the understanding that some graduates might be offered full-fledged copywriting jobs on the spot, depending, of course, how they did in the training.

Now that Financial Copy U is in full swing, we asked Nick to tell us more about what he and Glenn did and are doing right now. Seeing as there’s not enough other solid training for financial copywriting going on right now, at least that I know of, I realize Nick has a lot of valuable information for us.

Among his many impressive accomplishments, Nick was Head of Copy and Publisher for Agora’s financial imprint in the UK, Southbank Investment Research.

Today, as well as co-founding The Fix, he writes freelance for financial publishers in the UK, US and Australia and consults with Agora companies around the world.

Nick told us about the origin of Financial Copy U, why he, Glenn and Marketwise decided to do it, the difference between winning applications to the program and those that didn’t make it, and a lot more.

Great information about financial copywriting and copywriting in general!

For more info about the program:

https://www.financialcopyu.com

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It’s the sure-fire strategy that makes you overconfident.

It looks like this:

The copy’s loud.

Aggressive.

Alpha-male on a double dose of adderall.

It’s practically SCREAMING at you to buy.

And you know what?

Sometimes it works.

But not most of the time. Especially these days.

Hyper-aggressive copy is just a huge risk you don’t want to take.

And here’s why:

While it’s true that pressure might trigger an action, it almost never creates belief.

And belief is what you need to MAKE the sale… and KEEP the sale.

My co-host Nathan is going to lead us out of the land of testosterone intoxication and into an exciting new world, of calmly and irreversibly creating BELIEF in your copy… so pressure isn’t necessary.

Because when they believe… they buy.

Find out more about Nathan's approach at

https://cultishcontent.com/

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Today we take a deep dive into the part of copywriting that people talk about all the time.

And even though people talk about this all the time, most of them don’t really understand it.

That is, psychology.

Not the kind of psychology you experience in a therapist’s office—although there’s a little bit of overlap.

Not what you’ll find in brightly colored grid of buyer personas.

Not mindset.

No, we’re talking about the psychology that has to do with how people really behave. What actually makes them respond.

This is the kind of psychology that proves out over and over again, through unforgiving tests in the marketplace.

We’ll call it “copywriting psychology.” It’s the psychology behind copy that converts.

And here’s the thing:

It’s not always polite. It may not even be pleasant.

And sometimes, it’s offensive to the way people look at the world.

But copywriting psychology is not trying to win a popularity contest.

Instead, it’s trying to answer a very serious, and sometimes uncomfortable, question.

That is:

Does it convert?

Remember, we’re talking about persuasion in the wild here.

After all, when they’re looking at your copy, your prospects aren’t really sitting in a focus group, ponderously exploring their feelings and trying to express them so as to look good in front of others.

Here’s what your prospects are really doing:

They’re scrolling through emails… half-watching TikTok videos… and trying to remember where they left their debit card.

Copywriting psychology doesn’t rely on a theory or a particular set of beliefs.

It relies on observed and measured behavior.

Therefore, to get really good at this, you learn not to listen so much to what people say… but to pay very close attention to what they do.

When I mentor clients, a large part of what we do ends up coming from developing an almost sixth sense for copywriting psychology.

What we’ll do here today is a crash course to help you move to the next level in this important set of copywriting tools.

So, a couple of resources for you if you really want to get copywriting psychology under your belt.

If you are a working copywriter with at least two years’ experience and in the six figure level of income, you should consider applying for mentoring with me.

I don’t work with beginners, but if you have a successful business and you write copy, or you have a strong freelance copywriting business, check out my mentoring. It’s a serious one-year program and it can easily take you to the next level. It’s expensive, but clients find again and again that it more than pays for itself.

In fact, some of them, who run 9 figure businesses, have stayed with me for years.

And some freelance copywriters have as well.

Now, what we talked about today is just a small part of the copywriting psychology we cover during the year, because most of it comes up when we go over projects and promotions you’re actively working on.

You can find out more, including the application, at https://garfinkelcoaching.com

The second resource is for everyone and I can’t recommend it highly enough, even though I wrote it. This week I got two messages from clients who were bragging they got someone else to get the book.

Why? Because the information in it can really make a big difference in your copy and in your business. And I haven’t seen the same information anywhere else.

Of course I’m talking about The Persuasion Story Code. It’s on Amazon and here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

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Sometimes copy fails because it’s just not executed well enough.

And also, copy that simply misses the mark — doesn’t align with the target prospects and what’s on their minds — won’t do well either.

But you can have all the fundamentals in place and done well, and sales can still fail to happen.

Why?

That would be because the strategy behind the copy was weak or even non-existent.

Today, we’re talking about a blind spot that kills a lot of otherwise good copy—and how our special guest today, Jamie Thompson, coaches copywriters how to see what others miss entirely.

That would be, of course, strategy and strategic thinking.

Jamie’s a seasoned pro. Headquartered in Edinburgh, Scotland, he’s been writing copy for 10 years and counts among his clients such giants as Amazon, USAID, and Lenovo.

But he’s had many other clients—over 500 in all. And lately he’s made it his mission to teach copywriters how to think like strategists.

80% of Jamie’s clients come back for return engagements. So you’ll definitely want to know some of what he knows.

Follow up with Jamie:

Free course, Think Like A Strategic Copywriter: https://brandnewcopy.com/free-copywriting-course/

Contact: [email protected]

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Three weeks ago, we had a very special Old Masters Series show:

The Art of War, Copywriting Edition.

But we only covered half the book, so that made the previous episode

Part 1.

Today we cover the rest of the book, Chapters 7 through 13.

And that makes today Part 2.

Here’s what you need to know:

The Art of War was written by Sun Tzu (SOOON-tzeh) about 2500 years ago, as a treatise on military strategy.

The Art of War reaches far beyond military warfare, however. Business overachievers like Elon Musk and Mark Benioff, founder of salesforce, are among many who have praised this book.

That’s because the principles in this book are universal and very powerful in any situation where you’re in a struggle–and getting people to buy from the written word certainly counts as a struggle.

Today you'll see exactly how Sun Tzu's principles, when applied to copy, can help you sharpen your copy, position your offers better, and persuade prospects more naturally.

I’ve gotta tell you, I was surprised when I was preparing this how easily his principles can be applied to copy.

Now, there’s a reason The Art of War has lasted for more than two thousand years.

It’s not just because people like reading about swords and spears.

It’s because the way Sun Tzu thought about winning applies anywhere there’s competition — whether it’s two armies on a field, two companies in a market… or you, sitting at a keyboard, trying to out-sell the other guy.

When you’re writing copy, you’re not just “putting words together.” You’re maneuvering. Positioning. Adapting. Watching for the right moment to strike.

If you’ve ever had a great piece of copy flop… or a headline you loved get ignored… or a competitor suddenly steal your customers…

…you’ve felt the same frustration a general feels when the plan falls apart halfway through the battle.

Sun Tzu didn’t leave that to chance. He studied how to win before the fight began — and how to keep control until the very last move.

Today, we’re going to tap into the last seven chapters of his book.

These are the chapters about keeping your opponent guessing… matching your tactics to the exact ground you’re on… knowing when to press hard and when to pull back… and gathering the kind of intelligence that lets you win before the other side knows what happened.

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In the 1980s, before Internet marketing had even really begun, our very special guest today and returning champion was working as a tech writer in the foreign exchange trading department of Bankers Trust in New York.

In his new book “How The Web Won,The Inside Story of How a Motley Crew of Outsiders Hijacked the Information Superhighway and Struck a Blow for Human Freedom,” Ken McCarthy writes:

“Working with foreign exchange traders taught me an important lesson about the need for speed in business: Windows of opportunity open and close fast. That understanding, combined with my ‘discovery’ of the rudiments of direct marketing, has been worth millions to me and a whole lot more to my clients.”

That’s one of the many powerful lessons from Ken’s new book, “How The Web Won.” He’s been around Internet marketing longer than anyone else I know–and possibly longer than anyone, period.

In 1994, he sponsored the first conference about the business potential of the World Wide Web. With keynote speaker Marc Andreeson, at the time, the 23-year old co-founder of Netscape, an early Internet browser and the first important one.

Time magazine pointed out that Ken was the first person to identify the importance and business power of the click-through rate, which today, of course, is the basis of the roughly half-a-trillion-dollars a year Facebook and Google make selling pay per click advertising.

In 2002, Ken started an event called The System Seminar, which I attended a few years later myself. Met Frank Kern, Gary Halbert, Harlan Kilstein, and a whole bunch of other people who were, or became, legends in direct marketing.

We could spend the rest of the show talking about all of Ken’s accomplishments, but I’d rather he tell you about his book, “How The Web Won.”

So Ken, welcome, and congrats on your new book!

1. So in 1993, you attended a conference called One BBS CON. I’m not sure from your book if that was the moment that changed your life, since you’d been doing some pretty good pulling rabbits out of hats with direct marketing before then. But could you talk about if that was an inflection point and how what you learned at that conference influenced you going forward?

2. Could you talk about being invited to Dan Kennedy’s conference in 1993? I can’t imagine a lot of the hard core direct marketers who paid $5000 to be there were all that receptive at that time to what you had to say. Were they?

3. Until 1989, it was forbidden by the U.S. government to use the Internet for commercial purposes. How fast did that change in the 90s, and what were the key moments for that? How did your San Francisco conference fit into all of that?

4. When did Internet marketing as we know it today really start to get traction?

5. What would you say was the big mistake made by many of the companies that went bankrupt in the dot-bomb of 2000 – and how long did it take for the direct marketing way of thinking take to catch on?

6. What prompted you to launchThe System seminar in 2002?

7. Any other key moments between the early days and today, that you’d like to talk about?

Ken’s book, How The Web Won

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DM2GN91Q

HowtheWebWon.com

Get in touch with Ken at: https://kenmccarthy.com

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$6.7 million.

That’s how much mega financial publisher Marketwise paid out to copywriters in royalties in 2024.

And now they’re making an offer so good we had to rush today’s special guest, top copywriter and best-selling author Glenn Fisher, on the show to tell you about it.

The offer is simple, yet overwhelming: FREE training from Marketwise to 12 lucky copywriters… and one of them will be offered a chance to write copy for this publishing giant.

Glenn will tell you all about the training in just a few minutes, but let me tell you first about Glenn:

He knows the value of training himself, because he trained with legends Bill Bonner and Mark Ford at Agora. He then went on to run one of the Agora businesses in the UK.

He wrote Amazon best-seller The Art of the Click, which was also translated into Chinese and Korean.

And, he co-created Financial Copy U with Nick O’Connor and Marketwise, where they will be mentoring 12 writers over 12 weeks, for free, starting in early September.

So if you want to put your name in the hat, today would be a good day.

Links:

Financial Copy U: financialcopyu.com

The Fix, Glenn’s and Nick’s other program: thefixcopywriting.com

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