Deep Transformation

Ep. 85 (Part 1 of 2) | Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas), founder of the contemporary spiritual path the Diamond Approach, and author of many outstanding spiritual classics, is writing a trilogy on the subject of love, and in this conversation the focus is on the second book, Nondual Love. Hameed explains that most wisdom traditions target various ultimates: pure emptiness, pure consciousness, nondual awareness, being, non-being—each of which is sufficient for liberation, but fails to include the qualities of nondual love: goodness, sweetness, abundance, benevolence. Hameed brings these dimensions of love to the table, asking what does divine love feel like, look like, what is it made of? 

Listening to Hameed is a beautiful, rich experience, due to his extraordinary lucidity, gentle humor, and the profound understanding and assurance that pervade his words from his long experience swimming in the waters of which he speaks. He tells us we all have the potential to experience nondual love, although there are significant obstacles along the path that are inherent to being human. Hameed describes the different stages of opening to nondual love, from the first glimmerings of “unearthly sweetness” to the realization that we ourselves are love. And he outlines the nature of the barriers we face, like the beast of anger and hatred that arises in us when we perceive that reality has abandoned us. Hameed explains that re-establishing basic trust, feeling the presence of benevolent love, we can regain the sense that things will be okay and unfold ultimately for the good. Recorded April 12, 2023.

“Without love there would be no reason for the universe to exist.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas), spiritual master, creator of the Ridhwan School & Diamond Approach, and Hameed’s new book Nondual Love (01:07)
• What does Hameed mean by nondual love? It’s similar to nondual awareness but it includes the goodness, the sweetness, the heart that is inherent in our spiritual nature (03:00)
• In Plato, the main idea is the good, which is almost synonymous with love (06:05)
• What does divine love feel like? Does it have a color, a texture? (07:57)
• The fundamental benevolence of reality—without love there would be no reason for the universe to exist (09:10)
• The Sufis say, God created the universe out of love so God would be known—known through the human being (10:59)
• Rumi writes all the time about how love and God are inseparable: most poetry, most songs, most literature are about love, but we rarely hear about the very beingness of it (12:30)
• Beyond gratification: for someone who is awakened, the practice of sexual encounter is to bring out more love, the goodness of love (14:24)
• Stages of opening to divine love: our usual understanding of love is limited, but then comes a fullness in our hearts, a softness, an unearthly sweetness (16:47)
• The next stage is recognizing your full heart as just one wave of the ocean of love that comes through your individual heart (20:07)
• The next level is recognizing yourself as the ocean of love: I am love; this is the self-realization of nondual love (20:49)
• Basic trust: feeling the presence of benevolent love tends to evoke trust, a sense that things will be okay and unfold ultimately for the good (21:19)
• We are born trusting, but what happens in childhood determines if we will expand or be limited; our basic trust may go underground, but love and basic trust are inherent to people (24:24)
• Hameed teaches how to regain basic trust by dissolving the history that limits it (26:04)
• How many ultimates are there? Each teaching talks about a different ultimate—pure emptiness, consciousness, being, non-being—each of which is sufficient for liberation, but love includes also abundance (26:30) 
• Spiritual teachers tend to think their teachings and practices are it, and even though they may experience and radiate love, they don’t speak about love (32:09)
• 5 fundamental dimensions of our true nature: divine love, presence, emptiness, awareness, and change/dynamism; what is the difference between presence and awareness? (34:38)
• Creative dynamism is the dimension that shows how things change, because saying everything is one doesn’t explain movement and change (38:57)
• There is a reality that is truly unmanifest (40:25)
• True nature is a potential and will manifest to whoever is open to it (42:48)
• The truly unmanifest is unexperienceable: I don’t know what I am, but I am That (47:09)

• A. H. Almaas, Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality*
• A. H. Almaas, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart*
• A. H. Almaas, The Beloved, the third book in the trilogy, is in the process of being edited
• Hameed Ali, founder of The Ridhwan School, home to the Diamond Approach
• Hameed Ali’s book page on the Deep Transformation website
• See also Deep Transformation podcast #43 with Hameed Ali, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality and How Awakenings Can Unfold Endlessly (YouTube video)
• Plato on “the good”
• Sufi philosophy says God created the universe out of love, so God could be known through us
• Rumi, “The Meaning of Love”
• The school of object relations, a school of thought in psychoanalytic theory centered around theories of stages of ego development
• Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Vajrayana master, scholar, poet, Dzogchen teacher, and recognized by Buddhists as one of the greatest realized masters; The Collected Works of Dilgo Khyentse, Vol. 1: Journey to Enlightenment; Enlightened Courage; The Heart of Compassion*
• Vedanta, Hindu philosophical tradition that encompasses the ideas contained in the Upanishads, with a focus on knowledge and liberation
• Heraclitus, pre-Socratic philosopher in ancient Greece, The only constant is change” 
• Satcitananda, the subjective experience of the ultimate unchanging reality, Brahman
• Ramana Maharshi, likely the most famous Hindu sage of the 20th century, renowned for his saintly life
• Dōgen Zenji, writer, poet, philosopher, and founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan, “Buddha-nature is present at the time of becoming a buddha…”
• Rigpa, the true nature of our mind, pure awareness, a central concept of Dzogchen
• Advaita Vedanta, a path of spiritual discipline; advaita is usually translated as nondualism
• Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Indian guru of nondualism, author of I Am That*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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A. Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas) was born in Kuwait in 1944. At the age of eighteen, he moved to the U.S. to study at the University of California in Berkeley. Hameed was working on his Ph.D. in physics when he reached a turning point in his life and destiny that led him to inquire into the psychological and spiritual aspects of human nature rather than the physical nature of the universe. He left the academic world to pursue an in-depth journey of inner discovery, applying his scientific precision and discipline to personal, experiential research. This included study with different teachers in different modalities, extensive reading, and continuous study of his own consciousness in an effort to understand the essential nature of human experience and reality in general.

Hameed’s process of exploration led to the creation of the Ridhwan School and, with his colleague Karen Johnson, resulted in the founding and unfoldment of the Diamond Approach. He is the author of 20 books, including Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart, Keys to the Enneagram: How to Unlock the Highest Potential of Every Personality Type, The Unfolding Now: Realizing Your True Nature through the Practice of Presence, and more.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 84 (Part 2 of 2) | Lama Surya Das, beloved meditation teacher, scholar, pioneer of bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the West, and author of the bestseller Awakening the Buddha Within among many more, shares bright gems of wisdom from his extensive experience practicing Dzogchen, his long immersion in meditation retreats, and studying in person with the great spiritual teachers of Asia. Lama Surya is dedicated to getting the word out, and to young people especially, that the timeless teachings of the great masters are every bit as important and transformative in today’s modern world as they ever were. One doesn’t need to go on retreat to come to a place of wonder, understanding, and appreciation for life; Lama Surya assures us that daily practice of attentive awareness on the path of “awakefulness” is doable and effective in today’s world. This is the path that leads to self-knowledge, and we just need to explore and investigate to discover for ourselves that realization of the Great Perfection, of oneness, is never far away.

Lama Surya embellishes his teachings with humorous tales of his early explorations with psychedelics, his spiritual adventures in India, how he came to undertaking not one but two 3-year silent retreats in the great Tibetan Buddhist tradition of Dzogchen, and coming home afterwards with a mission for transmission. He talks about divine love and how amazing and influential it was to hang out with spiritual teachers who actually practice unconditional love, here and now. Lama Surya Das’ own deep caring and compassion shine through his words, and his well-known “jolly lama” humor often elicits laughter from Roger and John. “There are a lot of lanes on the highway of awakening, you just want to watch you don’t go off into the ditch.” His authentic, endearing humility shines through as well. He is certain that “if I can do it, you can do it, anyone can do it.” Recorded September 7, 2022.

“Spiritual elixir is the greatest panacea for our inner world: mind, body, heart & soul.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Going to India, discovering the practice of of Vipassana and the cave retreat yogi tradition of Tibet (01:31)
• What timeless teachings did Lama Surya Das discover in his 3-year Dzogchen retreat? Love is not the same thing as light (05:21)
• Mother Teresa on loneliness and love, and meeting spiritual teachers who really lived the talk (07:44)
• Living, practicing, surrendering: learning that love is greater than any dichotomy of like or dislike (08:36)
• Teaching of Pema Wangyal Rinpoche: “Don’t expect the struggle to end.” (10:45)
• Coming back after the long retreat (11:47)
• We need an applied dharma that works for the postmodern world today (13:08)
• Continuing the practice with a second 3-year Dzogchen retreat (14:04)
• How Lama Surya Das became a Dzogchen teacher and started the Dzogchen centers (16:57)
• The importance of spending more time with daily practice and integrating it into your life: retreats are not for everyone (18:21)
• How long does it take to awaken? Awakening is very personal (21:08)
• Pointing towards awakening: absolute truth and relative truth, the middle way (23:44)
• What’s next for Lama Surya Das? The 3 H’s: healthy, harmonious & helpful—teaching young people, spiritual activism (26:46)
• Epistemological or logical debate: clarifying the meaning of how we know what we know (28:30)
• Cherishing life: cockroaches in the monastery (30:40)
• The timeless question: How should we live? (33:01)
• We have to accept the implications of our actions and the law of karma (35:32)
• Moving towards interdependence, interconnectedness (37:00)
• What are Lama Surya Das’ practices today? The joy of meditation: catching the updrift (38:51) 
• A poem and a prayer (42:54)

• Roshi Philip Kaplan, beloved Zen teacher, founder of the Rochester Zen Center, author of The Three Pillars of Zen*
• Mirabai Bush, founder, Center for Contemplative Mind in Society, co-founder of the Seva Foundation, co-author with Ram Dass, Walking Each Other Home: Conversations on Loving and Dying*
• S. N. Goenka, teacher of Vipassana meditation, who started the first Vipassana Center in 1969, Meditation Now: Inner Peace through Inner Wisdom*
• Milarepa, renowned Tibetan yogi and spiritual poet
• Kalu Rinpoche, Dzogchen master and Mahamudra teacher, Luminous Mind: The Way of the Buddha*, Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism*
• Andrew Holecek, lucid dreaming expert & author, see also Deep Transformation podcast episode #37, The Remarkable Practice of Dream Yoga
• Mother Teresa, founder of the MIssionaries of Charity, canonized as Saint Teresa of Calcutta in 2016
• Tulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche on developing heart and love (YouTube video), Awakening Wisdom: Heart Advice on the Fundamental Practices of Vajrayana Buddhism*
• Padmakara Translation Group, established to preserve and make available Western translations of Tibetan Buddhist classics
• Dudjom Rinpoche, The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its Fundamentals and History*, A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom*
• Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzburg, Jack Kornfield, Insight Meditation Center, Spirit Rock Meditation Center
• Nyoshul Kenpo Rinpoche & Lama Surya Das, Natural Great Perfection: Dzogchen Teachings and Vajra Songs*
• Stephen Mitchell’s translation of Tao Te Ching*
• Karma Triyana Dharmachakra (KTD) monastery, Tibetan Buddhist monastery in Woodstock, New York
• Buckminster Fuller, Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth*
• Basho’s haiku The Old Pond
• Emily Dickinson, from the poem I’m Nobody (…to an admiring bog)
• Lama Surya Das’ website: https://surya.org
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddha Within: Tibetan Wisdom for the Western World*
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening to the Sacred: Creating a Personal Spiritual Life*
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddhist Heart: Integrating Love, Meaning, and Connection into Every Part of Your Life*
• Lama Surya Das, Buddha Standard Time: Awakening to the Infinite Possibilities of Now*
• Lama Surya Das and Sounds True, Dzögchen Meditation Training: A Direct Path for Awakening to the Radiant Buddha Within* (audiobook)
• Lama Surya Das, The Yeti and the Jolly Lama: A Tale of Friendship*
• Lama Surya Das, The Mind Is Mightier Than the Sword: Enlightening the Mind, Opening the Heart*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Lama Surya Das is one of the foremost Western Buddhist meditation teachers and scholars. The Dalai Lama affectionately calls him “the American Lama.” Lama Surya has spent over forty-five years studying Zen, Vipassana, Yoga, and Tibetan Buddhism with many of the great old masters of Asia, including some of the Dalai Lama’s own teachers. He is an authorized lama in the Tibetan Buddhist order, a leading spokesperson for Buddhism and contemporary spirituality, a translator, poet, meditation master, chant master, and social-spiritual activist.

Lama Surya Das is the author of the international bestselling Awakening trilogy: Awakening the Buddha Within, Awakening to the Sacred, and Awakening the Buddhist Heart, as well as his latest release and first children’s book, The Yeti & the Jolly Lama: A Tale of Friendship, and eleven other books. In 1991, he established the Dzogchen Centers and Dzogchen Retreats, and in 1993, with the Dalai Lama, he founded the Western Buddhist Teachers Network and regularly organizes its International Buddhist Teachers’ Conferences. Today, Lama Surya Das teaches and lectures around the world, conducting dozens of meditation retreats and workshops each year. Lama Surya can be followed on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram; his own podcast Awakening Now can be found on the Be Here Now Network. For more information on Surya, as well as his lecture and retreat schedule, go to www.surya.org. Lama Surya Das resides in Lexington, Massachusetts.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 83 (Part 1 of 2) | Lama Surya Das, beloved meditation teacher, scholar, pioneer of bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the West, and author of the bestseller Awakening the Buddha Within among many more, shares bright gems of wisdom from his extensive experience practicing Dzogchen, his long immersion in meditation retreats, and studying in person with the great spiritual teachers of Asia. Lama Surya is dedicated to getting the word out, and to young people especially, that the timeless teachings of the great masters are every bit as important and transformative in today’s modern world as they ever were. One doesn’t need to go on retreat to come to a place of wonder, understanding, and appreciation for life; Lama Surya assures us that daily practice of attentive awareness on the path of “awakefulness” is doable and effective in today’s world. This is the path that leads to self-knowledge, and we just need to explore and investigate to discover for ourselves that realization of the Great Perfection, of oneness, is never far away.

Lama Surya embellishes his teachings with humorous tales of his early explorations with psychedelics, his spiritual adventures in India, how he came to undertaking not one but two 3-year silent retreats in the great Tibetan Buddhist tradition of Dzogchen, and coming home afterwards with a mission for transmission. He talks about divine love and how amazing and influential it was to hang out with spiritual teachers who actually practice unconditional love, here and now. Lama Surya Das’ own deep caring and compassion shine through his words, and his well-known “jolly lama” humor often elicits laughter from Roger and John. “There are a lot of lanes on the highway of awakening, you just want to watch you don’t go off into the ditch.” His authentic, endearing humility shines through as well. He is certain that “if I can do it, you can do it, anyone can do it.” Recorded September 7, 2022.

“Timeless wisdom is an endangered natural resource.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Lama Surya Das, dedicated practitioner, spiritual teacher, pioneer of bringing the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism to the West (01:09)
• How Lama Surya Das got to where he is now: his humor, his education, going to India and meeting his guru (03:57)
• Spiritual elixir is the greatest panacea for our mind, body, heart & soul (07:32)
• A core theme of Buddhist teaching: check it out for yourself (09:16)
• Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, the height of Tibetan Buddhism: awakefulness is the way (10:32) 
• Mahamudra evergreen teachings of nondual awareness: we’re all buddhas by nature (15:52)
• If everything is perfect as it is, how come we feel like crap? (18:08) 
• Self-knowledge is the way to wisdom: growing up to be a true mensch (18:45)
• The five wisdoms (gnoses), mirror-like wisdom, discriminating wisdom, and how they apply to now (21:20)
• Lucid faith, unshakeable realization (22:57)
• Lama Surya Das’ first vision of God, “beyond oneness or noneness” (24:28)
• Who are we really? Are we consciousness? What about the unconscious, the subconscious? (32:22)
• Replicating ego death in meditation, sensing Presence, experiencing beingness (33:33)
• “If I can do it, you can do it, anyone can do it.” (34:49)
• The middle way, moderation in moderation: there are a lot of lanes on the highway of awakening (36:50)
• Questioning and investigation are an important part of the spiritual path (37:57)
• Timeless wisdom is an endangered natural resource (39:10)
• A story of Lama Surya Das’ first 3-year Tibetan retreat, as told by Roger (40:06)

• Lama Surya Das’ website (which includes his lecture and retreat schedule): https://surya.org
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddha Within: Tibetan Wisdom for the Western World*
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening to the Sacred: Creating a Personal Spiritual Life*
• Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddhist Heart: Integrating Love, Meaning, and Connection into Every Part of Your Life*
• Lama Surya Das, Buddha Standard Time: Awakening to the Infinite Possibilities of Now*
• Lama Surya Das and Sounds True, Dzögchen Meditation Training: A Direct Path for Awakening to the Radiant Buddha Within* (audiobook)
• Lama Surya Das, The Yeti and the Jolly Lama: A Tale of Friendship*
• Lama Surya Das, The Mind Is Mightier Than the Sword: Enlightening the Mind, Opening the Heart,* contains the Meister Eckhart quote, “The eye through which I see God is the eye through which He sees me.”
• Kalu Rinpoche, Dzogchen master and Mahamudra teacher, Luminous Mind: The Way of the Buddha*, Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism*
• The laughing diamond sutra or Hevajra
• Socrates, “To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom.”
• The five wisdoms (gnoses), mirror-like wisdom, discerning, discriminating wisdom, and more
• Rabindranath Tagore, Bengali poet, playwright, and composer, the first non-European to win the Nobel Prize in Literature, “To know your Self is to know God.”
• Sharon Salzburg, co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society, longtime teacher of Vipassana meditation, author, LovingKindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness*, et. al.
• Immanuel Kant, Critique of Pure Reason*, ens realissimum, the philosophical origin of the idea of God
• Encounter groups at Esalen Institute
• Henry David Thoreau, “Read not the Times. Read the Eternities.” “I would rather sit on a pumpkin and have it all to myself, than be crowded on a velvet cushion.“
• Roshi Philip Kaplan, The Three Pillars of Zen: Teaching, Practice, and Enlightenment*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Lama Surya Das is one of the foremost Western Buddhist meditation teachers and scholars. The Dalai Lama affectionately calls him “the American Lama.” Lama Surya has spent over forty-five years studying Zen, Vipassana, Yoga, and Tibetan Buddhism with many of the great old masters of Asia, including some of the Dalai Lama’s own teachers. He is an authorized lama in the Tibetan Buddhist order, a leading spokesperson for Buddhism and contemporary spirituality, a translator, poet, meditation master, chant master, and social-spiritual activist.

Lama Surya Das is the author of the international bestselling Awakening trilogy: Awakening the Buddha Within, Awakening to the Sacred, and Awakening the Buddhist Heart, as well as his latest release and first children’s book, The Yeti & the Jolly Lama: A Tale of Friendship, and eleven other books. In 1991, he established the Dzogchen Centers and Dzogchen Retreats, and in 1993, with the Dalai Lama, he founded the Western Buddhist Teachers Network and regularly organizes its International Buddhist Teachers’ Conferences. Today, Lama Surya Das teaches and lectures around the world, conducting dozens of meditation retreats and workshops each year. Lama Surya can be followed on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram; his own podcast Awakening Now can be found on the Be Here Now Network. For more information on Surya, as well as his lecture and retreat schedule, go to www.surya.org. Lama Surya Das resides in Lexington, Massachusetts.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 82 (Part 2 of 2) | Constitutional law expert and criminal justice professor Mark Fischler has a thirst for justice and a gift for teaching. With cogency and passion, Mark explains that law is not the absolute that we perhaps thought, but an ever changing reflection of the values we hold as a society. Law is a developmental process, and will benefit from our own dedication to inner moral development. Mark shows how the law can (and has) become ever more inclusive, with the potential to serve and uphold the dignity of all peoples, all beings. Because of its abstract clauses, there is room in the Constitution to interpret the law in ways that are attuned with our pluralistic society. Mark calls on us to come together and decide what we value as a people—there is no mandate in democracy that all decision making power must reside in the hands of the Supreme Court, which has only had the sort of unilateral power it enjoys today since the 1950s.

This is no dry, legalistic conversation, but a truly illuminating vision of the potential of the law to embody justice, inclusivity, compassion. It is also a solid overview of where we have come from and where we are now, referencing many landmark rulings of the Supreme Court. Finally, this is spiritually inspiring as well—Mark tells the story of the transformational epiphany he had as a young man that led to his career as a public defender, onto the spiritual path, and eventually to become a well-respected, award-winning professor of criminal justice. Mark’s perspective on the law is far ranging, embracing human rights, animal rights, the rights of all beings. It comes from a place of deep care and compassion: “What is the happiness that the Declaration of Independence talks about, what is suffering?” Be inspired by Mark’s wise and knowledgeable teachings and the potential of the law to create a just society for all. Recorded January 4, 2023.

“Law is our collective coming together and deciding what we value as a people.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• The 4th branch of government: administrative agencies like the EPA that implement policies are now under very specific guidelines from the legislature (01:40)
• Abstract language in the Constitution requires interpretation and the challenge of finding balance between restrictively specific guidelines and abstract directives (06:45)
• The history of the Supreme Court and how the Court is 10–20 years behind the rest of the culture’s center of gravity (09:44)
• The doctrine of originalism: is the Constitution a fixed document? (12:36)
• Ronald Dworkin, primary legal philosopher of his generation: “The law is absolutely an act of interpretation.” (15:55)
• Originalism’s effect on Brown v. Board of Education, the Equal Protection Clause, and Plessis v. Ferguson (16:35)
• Abraham Lincoln was competing with the courts on slavery—his point of view was far more holistic, respecting the equal dignity of all people (20:47)
• We all need to be involved in the determination of fundamental human rights and not leave it up to the Supreme Court (24:24)
• Our Constitution, because of the abstract clauses, allows us ways to start to relate differently to our environment and all beings (26:00)
• The law is a social institution embodying the ways we agree to relate to each other as a society (28:09)
• We need to become conscious that law is a developmental process, becoming more and more inclusive over time (29:18)
• Theories of justice and how to build a just society: integrating Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative, universalizability, Aristotle’s virtue-based right action, Steve McIntosh’s observable piece, the utilitarian what’s the greatest good for the greatest number, and John Rawls’ justice as fairness (31:59)
• Using Integral to help us apply inclusivity to the law (35:32)
• Animal rights and our relationship to property, to the Earth (37:39)
• Is there a legal way to support people in the pursuit of self-actualization? (43:17)
• What is the happiness that the Declaration of Independence talks about, what is suffering? (46:15)
• Law is our collective coming together and deciding what we value as a people and this requires inner moral development (47:40)
• Peacemaking ethics: care, connection, mindfulness (53:22)
• The collective trance we live in (55:51)
• A call to participate in our democratic process: we can influence our laws, our communities, and make this world a better place (58:34)

• Obergefell v. Hodges, 2015 decision to guarantee the fundamental right to marry to same-sex couples
• The Federalist Society, a group of conservatives and libertarians dedicated to reforming the current legal order
• Frederick Douglass, social reformer, abolitionist, orator, writer, statesman
• The theory of originalism is that all statements in the Constitution be interpreted according to the understanding at the time the statements were adopted 
• Ronald Dworkin, primary legal philosopher of his generation, advocate of a moral reading of the U.S. Constitution
• Brown v. Board of Education, the Equal Protection Clause
• Plessis v. Ferguson ruling that racial segregation does not violate the Constitution
• Hammurabi’s Code, Babylonian legal text
• Hanzi Freinacht, The Listening Society*, Nordic Ideology*
• Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative
• Steve McIntosh, co-founder Institute for Cultural Evolution, author, Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself*, see also Deep Transformation episode #20, Consciousness Evolves, Politics Can Too
• Justice as Fairness, John Rawls and His Theory of Justice (Constitutional Rights Foundation)
• John Alexander, Capabilities and Social Justice: The Political Philosophy of Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum*
• Jonathan Rowson, anthology Dispatches from a Time Between Worlds: Crisis and Emergence in Metamodernity*, for more on metamodernism, see also Deep Transformation episode #17, Jonathan Rowson – Making Friends with Conflict, Metamodernity, Construct Awareness, and Other Ways of Facing the Current Metacrisis
• Eudaimonia translates to the state or condition of ‘good spirit,’ commonly understood as happiness, welfare 
• Tao Te Ching*, when the Tao declines, morality appears, when morality declines, the law appears
• Michael Braswell, Belinda McCarthy, Bernard McCarthy, Justice, Crime, and Ethics, textbook with chapter on peacemaking
• Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s quote about the “fierce urgency of now”

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Mark Fischler is a Professor of Criminal Justice and current program coordinator for the criminal justice and criminology programs at Plymouth State University. Prior to joining the Plymouth State faculty, he practiced law, representing poor criminal defendants for the New Hampshire Public Defender’s Office. Mark left the law after being guided by the Universe to focus on his Spiritual Awareness for almost two years. Upon his return, he was called to become a teacher and accepted a job at Plymouth State in 2003.

Since then, Mark has worked extensively with alternative theoretical models in law, constitutional law, and higher education, and has published on integral applications to teaching, being a lawyer, and legal theory. In his time at the university, he’s been a chair, Dean, and Interim VP. His focus in the classroom is ethics and criminal procedure and constitutional law. He is well respected for a teaching philosophy that emphasizes recognizing the humanity and dignity of each student. Professor Fischler was awarded the outstanding teaching award at his university in 2014. He currently offers a weekly Spiritual Inquiry class for college students.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 81 (Part 1 of 2) | Constitutional law expert and criminal justice professor Mark Fischler has a thirst for justice and a gift for teaching. With cogency and passion, Mark explains that law is not the absolute that we perhaps thought, but an ever changing reflection of the values we hold as a society. Law is a developmental process, and will benefit from our own dedication to inner moral development. Mark shows how the law can (and has) become ever more inclusive, with the potential to serve and uphold the dignity of all peoples, all beings. Because of its abstract clauses, there is room in the Constitution to interpret the law in ways that are attuned with our pluralistic society. Mark calls on us to come together and decide what we value as a people—there is no mandate in democracy that all decision making power must reside in the hands of the Supreme Court, which has only had the sort of unilateral power it enjoys today since the 1950s.

This is no dry, legalistic conversation, but a truly illuminating vision of the potential of the law to embody justice, inclusivity, compassion. It is also a solid overview of where we have come from and where we are now, referencing many landmark rulings of the Supreme Court. Finally, this is spiritually inspiring as well—Mark tells the story of the transformational epiphany he had as a young man that led to his career as a public defender, onto the spiritual path, and eventually to become a well-respected, award-winning professor of criminal justice. Mark’s perspective on the law is far ranging, embracing human rights, animal rights, the rights of all beings. It comes from a place of deep care and compassion: “What is the happiness that the Declaration of Independence talks about, what is suffering?” Be inspired by Mark’s wise and knowledgeable teachings and the potential of the law to create a just society for all. Recorded January 4, 2023.

“Law is our collective coming together and deciding what we value as a people.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing professor of criminal justice and constitutional law expert Mark Fischler (01:31)
• How did Mark get into constitutional law? (03:45)
• At the foundation of legal theory is the question: natural law or positive law? How Ken Wilber reduced the cognitive dissonance going on around this for Mark (06:44)
• Law is a lawyer-driven process and the action is in the criminal courts (07:52)
• Mark’s 1996 transformational epiphany of self-knowledge around the judgmental character of his mind (09:16)
• How psychotherapy relates to Mark’s practice as a public defender and taking a bodhisattva approach to being there for all beings (13:59)
• The deepening of Mark’s spiritual practice: Am I supposed to leave everything behind, give it all up? (21:08)
• “The demon spoke” (Socrates): leaving public defender hood and the beginning of Mark’s spiritual journey (25:03)
• Miguel Luiz’ Four Agreements: principles upon which to life your life (29:35)
• Being of service to others is the foundational piece driving Mark to deepen his understanding of the law and in his role as professor (35:08)
• “We’re in a stage of pluralism, but we sure don’t act that way;”Justice Alito’s decision in the Dobbs case, overturning Roe v. Wade (37:02)
• Can we start to have a conversation about the law, from a 30,000’ point of view, transcending and including perspectives, even the Integral one? (38:20)
• Giving the Supreme Court so much power to make legal decisions is only as old as the 1950s (39:46) 
• Was Roe v. Wade the best way to go? We needed to have a more honest conversation from the start (43:37)
• Human rights and how developmental stages play out in the justice system (46:35)
• Roger highlights the points Mark has brought up and their antidotes: absolutism, pluralism, the need for honest conversations, integrating different points of view (48:12)
• Teaching civil liberties to a class of diverse first generation students so that they feel heard and valued (51:47)
• Understanding Alito’s point of view, emotional contagion, and how Alito and other Supreme Court justices do not feel respected or heard (55:18)
• Black nationalism: being completely independent of the system (58:40)

• What’s the Future (WTF) and What Can We Do About It? Integral Conference, Sedona 2022
• John Kaiser, professor whose teachings stand at the crossroads between social & political philosophy, human rights, and ethics
• Plato, The Republic*
• Ken Wilber’s Four Quadrants (Integral Life)
• Melvyn Zarr, professor who represented Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Hayden Valley, Yosemite
• Roshi Philip Kapleau, The Three Pillars of Zen*
• The Third Patriarch of Zen, “…and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness” 
• Gerry Spence, founder of the Trial Lawyer’s College, who tried and won many nationally known cases, including the Karen Silkwood case
• Carl Rogers, On Becoming a Person*
• The practice of tonglen
• Pema Chodron, Reggie Ray, Ram Dass, Shunryu Suzuki
• Bob Fogelnest, former president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
• Plato’s Apology
• Bo Lozoff, We’re All Doing Time: A Guide to Getting Free (foreword by The Dalai Lama)
• Miguel Luiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom*
• Gini Gentry, ​​spiritual leader of the Toltec Eagle Knight Lineage 
• Don Miguel Luiz: Events, Workshops, Retreats
• Dobbs v. Jackson, where Justice Alito’s decision overturned Roe v. Wade 
• Jeff Salzman, beloved Integral pundit, The Daily Evolver podcast
• Marbury v. Madison, Supreme Court case that established the principle of judicial review in the United States
• The Warren Court and Brown v. Board of Education
• Corey Robin, The Enigma of Clarence Thomas*
• Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad
• Thomas Sowell, author, philosopher, economist, Discrimination and Disparities*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Mark Fischler is a Professor of Criminal Justice and current program coordinator for the criminal justice and criminology programs at Plymouth State University. Prior to joining the Plymouth State faculty, he practiced law, representing poor criminal defendants for the New Hampshire Public Defender’s Office. Mark left the law after being guided by the Universe to focus on his Spiritual Awareness for almost two years. Upon his return, he was called to become a teacher and accepted a job at Plymouth State in 2003.

 Since then, Mark has worked extensively with alternative theoretical models in law, constitutional law, and higher education, and has published on integral applications to teaching, being a lawyer, and legal theory. In his time at the university, he’s been a chair, Dean, and Interim VP. His focus in the classroom is ethics and criminal procedure and constitutional law. He is well respected for a teaching philosophy that emphasizes recognizing the humanity and dignity of each student. Professor Fischler was awarded the outstanding teaching award at his university in 2014. He currently offers a weekly Spiritual Inquiry class for college students.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 80 (Part 2 of 2) | Connie Zweig, award-winning author, depth psychologist, master shadow guide, and longtime contemplative practitioner asks some good questions—and answers them too, with unusual clarity and deep insight born of long experience and a cutting-edge mind. Why is it that we meet darkness on the spiritual path? What do we banish into the shadow? How do we reclaim what we project onto charismatic leaders? Learning to recognize and resolve the shadow is a powerful practice, and one that is all too often overlooked in a time when psychology is focused on objective approaches, neglecting the fact and force of the unconscious. Cultivating shadow awareness, we can begin to look beyond projections and stereotypes, recognize the risks of black and white thinking, and learn how to reclaim what Carl Jung called the “unlived life.” Connie discusses the psychodynamics between spiritual student and spiritual teacher, and other situations where people have disproportionate power over others, shining a bright light of illumination on the nuances and complexities of these relationships.

This is an intimate look into the challenges of the spiritual path, where we need both psychological practice and spiritual practice to advance our awakening, and a very relevant, timely conversation with shadow currently erupting in our culture in epidemic proportions. Connie’s dedication to helping people find their way through the dark nights we inevitably experience on our spiritual journey comes through strong and clear. Her authenticity, caring, and wisdom is palpable, inspiring us as to how the lights really go on when we start to see the dynamics of our inner world and relationships with more nuance, deeper insight, and shadow awareness. Recorded April 5, 2023.

“When you meet the shadow, it means something else is required of you.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Let’s talk about awakening: it’s not just about meeting the shadow (01:25)
• Connie’s intention is to help people move through and past the inevitable challenges on the path of spiritual growth (03:30)
• Spiritual shadow work: how do we reclaim our projections & gifts that we tend to give away to charismatic leaders? (04:44) 
• How do we uncover what we banished into the shadow? Bringing forth our “unlived life” (06:11)
• Connie’s distress about the state of the field of psychology today: medicalization, the cognitive/behavioral/neuroscience approach, and a complete discounting of the role of the unconscious (09:12)
• Ken Wilber’s work (and the work of A. H. Almaas) provides a bridge for integrating depth psychology and spiritual practice (12:02)
• Importance of your own inner guidance: what feels right? (13:22)
• Taking up a practice without taking on the whole enchilada (15:14)
• What would an integrated spiritual regime look like? Contemplative practice, reflective practices, depth psychotherapy, group practice & relationships, study, and bodywork (17:23)
• Lifestyle is another crucial element of a well-rounded practice (22:25)
• Trump’s malignant narcissism is in some ways analogous to how spiritual leaders attract followers: appealing to our pre-rational selves (23:17)
• How many teachers empower their students to leave the community and go teach? (28:20)
• Cultural shadows: e.g., independent America’s shadow is dependence (30:32)
• The concept of salvation in our spiritual sub-cultures (31:38) 
• The #MeToo movement wasn’t extended into the spiritual arena; the complexity of the issue of consent (34:19)
• Sexual relations with a spiritual leader trigger an identity crisis: Who am I? Victim, consort, special one? (40:50)
• What is the shadow side of the #MeToo movement? (41:49)
• Lonely spiritual teachers and systemic causes of abuse (43:07)
• Roger’s summary of Connie’s new book, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path (45:39)

• Buddha at the Gas Pump podcast
• Ken Wilber’s Lines of Development (Integral Academy website)
• Carl Jung quote about The Unlived Life, Robert A. Johnson, Living Your Unlived Life: Coping with Unrealized Dreams and Fulfilling Your Purpose in the Second Half of Life*
• A.H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), creator of The Diamond Approach, see also Deep Transformation episode #43, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality (or watch on YouTube)
• Arthur Deikman’s test of enlightenment: ask the spouse
• Erich Fromm, Escape from Freedom*
• Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death*
• Association for Spiritual Integrity
• The #MeToo movement
• Connie Zweig, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening*
• Connie Zweig, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul*
• Connie Zweig, The Holy Longing: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Yearning*
• Connie Zweig, Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life*
• Connie Zweig & Jeremiah Abrams, editors, Meeting the Shadow: The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature*
• Connie Zweig, A Moth to the Flame: The Story of the Great Sufi Poet Rumi*
• See also Deep Transformation episode #19, Connie Zweig –The World Needs Elders: How Inner Work Transforms Aging into a Developmental Process, a Life Culmination, and a Gift*
• Connie’s blogs on Medium: https://medium.com/@conniezweig
• Connie’s website: conniezweig.com, Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drconniezweig/, Twitter: https://twitter.com/ReinventingAge, Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.ConnieZweig/, YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLdvX4rtyOC4SA75JU98qaA?view_as=subscriber

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Connie Zweig, Ph.D. is a retired therapist and co-author of Meeting the Shadow and Romancing the Shadow. Her award-winning book, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul, extends her work on the Shadow into midlife and beyond and explores aging as a spiritual practice. It won the 2022 Gold COVR Award, the 2022 Gold Nautilus Award, the 2021 American Book Fest Award, and the 2021 Best Indie Book Award for best inspirational non-fiction. Her new book, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening, will be available in May 2023. Connie has been doing contemplative practices for more than 50 years. She is a wife, stepmother, and grandmother. After all these roles, she’s practicing the shift from role to soul.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 79 (Part 1 of 2) | Connie Zweig, award-winning author, depth psychologist, master shadow guide, and longtime contemplative practitioner asks some good questions—and answers them too, with unusual clarity and deep insight born of long experience and a cutting-edge mind. Why is it that we meet darkness on the spiritual path? What do we banish into the shadow? How do we reclaim what we project onto charismatic leaders? Learning to recognize and resolve the shadow is a powerful practice, and one that is all too often overlooked in a time when psychology is focused on objective approaches, neglecting the fact and force of the unconscious. Cultivating shadow awareness, we can begin to look beyond projections and stereotypes, recognize the risks of black and white thinking, and learn how to reclaim what Carl Jung called the “unlived life.” Connie discusses the psychodynamics between spiritual student and spiritual teacher, and other situations where people have disproportionate power over others, shining a bright light of illumination on the nuances and complexities of these relationships.

This is an intimate look into the challenges of the spiritual path, where we need both psychological practice and spiritual practice to advance our awakening, and a very relevant, timely conversation with shadow currently erupting in our culture in epidemic proportions. Connie’s dedication to helping people find their way through the dark nights we inevitably experience on our spiritual journey comes through strong and clear. Her authenticity, caring, and wisdom is palpable, inspiring us as to how the lights really go on when we start to see the dynamics of our inner world and relationships with more nuance, deeper insight, and shadow awareness. Recorded April 5, 2023.

“When you meet the shadow, it means something else is required of you.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing depth psychologist, illuminator of the shadow, and award-winning author Connie Zweig (01:17)
• What brought Connie to the subject of shadow: exploring the psychology of spiritual yearning (02:10)
• Why is it that we meet darkness on the spiritual path? (05:18)
• What Carl Jung meant when he used the term shadow (06:45)
• The negative traits (and our unlived gifts) that are in the shadow are always in relation to the ego (08:02)
• Why don’t we recognize the shadow? By definition, the shadow is hidden, unacceptable—locked in both body & mind (10:03)
• The shadow has erupted in our culture, but it’s not so apparent in the spiritual arena (12:43)
• Psychodynamics & psychological defense mechanisms: projection, repression & denial are not recognized in the wisdom traditions (16:44)
• Dreamwork is a way to begin exploring the unconscious (19:19)
• How does developmental psychology fit in? Self-observation is the beginning, turning inward (20:13)
• Connie’s book is a call for spiritual awakening, deepening practice, and also shadow awareness (22:45)
• Shadow awareness includes recognizing our projections—both negative and spiritually bright (24:37)
• What is it in us that wants to make the human divine? Projection and the psychodynamics of our relationship to spiritual leaders (26:08)
• Archetypal projection: attributing godlike power to leaders (28:36)
• How does it feel to have large numbers of people projecting perfection on you? (29:21)
• Narcissism, secrecy, and spiritual bypassing in spiritual communities (32:03)
• What leads a spiritual community to become cult-like, where people lose their critical thinking? (37:48)
• The practice of guru worship, idealization, or visualizing inner gods and goddesses (43:00)
• Cultivating shadow awareness in spiritual contexts (45:56)
• Taking the risk of stepping into liminality and uncertainty, trusting life (50:06)
• Follow the yearning beyond the ego self while also remembering to be aware there will be dark nights on the journey: when you meet the shadow, it means something else is required of you (52:58)

• Connie Zweig, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening*
• Connie Zweig, A Moth to the Flame: The Story of the Great Sufi Poet Rumi*
• Johann Wolfgang von Goethe’s poem The Holy Longing (translated by Robert Bly)
• Connie Zweig, The Holy Longing: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Yearning*
• Connie Zweig, Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life*
• Connie Zweig, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul*
• See also Deep Transformation episode #19, Connie Zweig –The World Needs Elders: How Inner Work Transforms Aging into a Developmental Process, a Life Culmination, and a Gift*
• Connie Zweig & Jeremiah Abrams, editors, Meeting the Shadow: The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature*
• Carl Jung, “The Relationship Between the Ego and Unconscious” in The Archetypes and The Collective Unconscious (Collected Works of C.G. Jung Vol. 9 Part 1)*, Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self (Collected Works of C.G. Jung Vol. 9 Part 2)*
• Sigmund Freud, On Murder, Mourning, and Melancholia*
• The #MeToo movement
• Defense Mechanisms in Psychology Explained (+ Examples) (Positive Psychology.org)
• Ken Wilber, “shadow material in every chakra,” The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision for the Future of the Great Traditions*
• Dick Anthony, Bruce Ecker & Ken Wilber, Spiritual Choices: The Problem of Recognizing Paths to Inner Transformation*
• A.H. Almaas, creator of The Diamond Approach, see also Deep Transformation episode #43, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality (or watch on YouTube)
• Keith Raniere, the NXIVM guy
• Marilyn Ferguson, The Aquarian Conspiracy: Personal and Social Transformation in Our Time*
• Connie’s blogs on Medium: https://medium.com/@conniezweig
• Connie’s website: conniezweig.com, Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drconniezweig/, Twitter: https://twitter.com/ReinventingAge, Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.ConnieZweig/, YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLdvX4rtyOC4SA75JU98qaA?view_as=subscriber

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

---

Connie Zweig, Ph.D. is a retired therapist and co-author of Meeting the Shadow and Romancing the Shadow. Her award-winning book, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul, extends her work on the Shadow into midlife and beyond and explores aging as a spiritual practice. It won the 2022 Gold COVR Award, the 2022 Gold Nautilus Award, the 2021 American Book Fest Award, and the 2021 Best Indie Book Award for best inspirational non-fiction. Her new book, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening, will be available in May 2023. Connie has been doing contemplative practices for more than 50 years. She is a wife, stepmother, and grandmother. After all these roles, she’s practicing the shift from role to soul.

---

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 78 (Part 2 of 2) | Greg Thomas, brilliant cultural analyst, educator, musician, speaker, and co-founder of the Jazz Leadership Project, is passionate about the power of culture to transform us as individuals and collectively. Where race is concerned, Greg presents an illuminating, multiperspectival view of the many layered issues around racism in this country. Early on, Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, and realized that the issues that plague us are not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview. Greg offers that the way out of this morass lies in adopting a cultural lens to replace the racial lens. And Greg points out that when we further embrace a cultural worldview in a participatory way, it opens up all the doors and windows: creating room for individuals to shine, for groups to experience group flow, for all of us to enjoy beauty and appreciation—the way soloist, band, and audience come together in a shared musical experience. 

When Greg talks about the power of culture, sharing illustrative anecdotes about blues masters, blues philosophy, and great moments in jazz history, it becomes clear just how effective culture is at dissolving boundaries and heightening connection, and how music (in this case) allows us to transcend our differences, our daily burdens, and experience unbounded joy. This is a lively, impactful, and poignant dialogue, with wisdom ranging from the deeply spiritual, the psychological/developmental, to the political and universal. Recorded January 25, 2023.

“Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Antagonistic cooperation: competition is part of the American, democratic experience, but there are ways it can be a cooperative competition, e.g. cutting contests in jazz, cypher in hip hop (01:30)
• Where individuality and the group flow dynamic come together: jazz and the ring shout tradition (04:34)
• Entropy, consciousness, and culture: the tragic dimension and the comic perspective (05:33)
• The power of culture: pushing people towards excellence, orienting towards self-actualization, and the Greek notion of arete (06:57)
• How do we get to arete? The importance of striving for and developing both mastery and wisdom (11:11)
• The tension between virtues like liberty and equality (15:27)
• The healing power of music: Art Pepper & Sonny Stitt’s cutting contest (18:00)
• Stomping the blues and how music merges secular & sacred, reminds us of our range of human feelings, gives resonance to memory, and brings healing and transcendence (21:11)
• Music affirms the gift of life: moments of utopia allow us to transcend our everyday cares (25:00)
• The role of creativity, the arts & humanities, is crucial in getting through the meaning crisis and the metacrisis (28:53)
• Cultural forms and ideas can be picked up at any time and reinvigorated: bringing back the wisdom (29:52)
• If there are enough of us who can model what it takes to be in flow together, despite our differences, we could tap into higher dimensions of human possibility (32:52)
• The blues idiom wisdom tradition, great orators Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. & Frederick Douglass, and the embodiment of American democratic ideals (33:36)
• Striving to achieve the realization of democratic ideals in a multiracial democracy—it’s never been done before (38:34)
• The fundamental contradiction of being a slave owner in a country based on the principle of liberty (41:30)
• Ultimately neither slave owner or slave is psychologically and spiritually free in a slave society (42:20)

• Joseph Campbell, The Hero’s Journey*
• Sterling Stuckey, Slave Culture*
• Albert Murray, blues philosopher, Reading Albert Murray in the Age of Uncertainty (Tune in to Leadership blog)
• Ring shout, an ecstatic, transcendent religious ritual, first practiced by African slaves 
• Institute for Cultural Evolution, think tank with the mission of advancing the evolution of consciousness & culture in America
• Greg Thomas’ Omni-American Future Project
• Arete, Greek expression for the notion of excellence, ultimately bound up with the notion of the fulfillment of purpose, the act of living up to one’s full potential
• Robert Greene, Mastery*
• John Vervaeke, Awakening from the Meaning Crisis (YouTube video)
• Duke Ellington, one of the greatest jazz composers of all time, who viewed music as a form of activism
• Steve McIntosh, Developmental Politics*
• Jimi Hendrix, master of the blues, master guitar player, singer/songwriter
• Art Pepper & Sonny Stitt, West Coast Sessions! Volume 1*
• Charlie Parker, one of the top jazz improvisers in American history, Ko-Ko [1945]
• Albert Murray, Stomping the Blues*
• Christopher Small, Musicking: The Meanings of Performing and Listening*
• John Vervaeke, After Socrates (YouTube video)
• James Carse, Finite and Infinite Games*
• Plato, The Dialogues of Socrates*
• Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., beloved Nobel Peace Prize-winning orator and leader of the Civil Rights Movement
• Frederick Douglass, one of the greatest orators and statesmen of the 19th century
• Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, founding fathers and signers of the Declaration of Independence
• Danielle Allen, Justice by Means of Democracy*
• Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence
• Tune in to Leadership blog (powered by the Jazz Leadership Project)
• The Omni-American Future Project, fighting against bigotry and anti-semitism through cultural, moral, spiritual excellence

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Greg Thomas is CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence. Along with his wife and partner Jewel, the Jazz Leadership Project works with notable firms such as JPMorgan Chase, Verizon, TD Bank, and Google. The leadership blog TuneIntoLeadership.com features their writings. Greg has been a professional journalist for over 25 years. He is currently a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Cultural Evolution. As an educator, Greg recently taught a course, “Cultural Intelligence: Transcending Race, Embracing Cosmos,” and co-facilitated a six-month class in 2022, titled “Stepping Up: Wrestling with America’s Past, Reimagining Its Future, Healing Together.”

As Co-Director of the Omni-American Future Project, Greg co-produced a two-day broadcast and awards ceremony, “Combating Racism and Antisemitism Together: Shaping an Omni-American Future” in October 2021 and the second annual event in November 2022, “Straight Ahead: An Omni-American Future, Fighting Bigotry Together.” In September 2022, Greg co-facilitated a one-day conference, “Resolving the Race-ism Dilemma.” He also serves on the advisory boards of The Consilience Project, and FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. 

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 77 (Part 1 of 2) | Greg Thomas, brilliant cultural analyst, educator, musician, speaker, and co-founder of the Jazz Leadership Project, is passionate about the power of culture to transform us as individuals and collectively. Where race is concerned, Greg presents an illuminating, multiperspectival view of the many layered issues around racism in this country. Early on, Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, and realized that the issues that plague us are not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview. Greg offers that the way out of this morass lies in adopting a cultural lens to replace the racial lens. And Greg points out that when we further embrace a cultural worldview in a participatory way, it opens up all the doors and windows: creating room for individuals to shine, for groups to experience group flow, for all of us to enjoy beauty and appreciation—the way soloist, band, and audience come together in a shared musical experience. 

When Greg talks about the power of culture, sharing anecdotes about blues masters, blues philosophy, and great moments in jazz history, it becomes clear just how effective culture is at dissolving boundaries and heightening connection, and how music (in this case) allows us to transcend our differences, our daily burdens, and experience unbounded joy. This is a lively, impactful, and poignant dialogue, with wisdom ranging from the deeply spiritual, the psychological/developmental, to the political and universal. Recorded January 25, 2023.

“Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Greg Thomas, jazz & blues scholar, musician, educator, and cultural sage (01:02)
• The blues speaks to everyone: as the Buddha said, life is suffering (03:04)
• The experience of Black Americans and their relationship with absurdity (05:07)
• Cultural appropriation is a misunderstanding of the way culture works: the difference between plagiarism and cultural appropriation (06:42)
• Flourishing happens when different ideas and cultures come together (09:05)
• Recognizing the fundamental tributary that the Black American experience and culture is to American history and American culture: using a cultural lens instead of a racial one (13:46)
• Greg Thomas’ spiritual journey: integrating traditionalism, modernism, postmodernism, Integral Theory, a pre-traditional experience, and studying African syncretism, Taoism, Kabbalah, and more (17:38)
• How Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, the blues wisdom tradition, and the 4th zone of the Integral Map (22:21)
• Dealing with the range and depth of the wicked problems we have today is ultimately going to take wisdom (25:37)
• How indigenous wisdom was lost during the Age of Enlightenment and the challenge of the Integral movement to provide a framework for integration (26:08)
• One of our fundamental problems stems from the notion that we are separate from nature, separate from the divine (29:24)
• Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity (32:22)
• Is ethnocentricity (and therefore racism) a natural part of the evolutionary ladder? (35:54)
• The concept of rooted cosmopolitanism (40:15)
• Ken Wilber’s “dignities and disasters” of modernity (45:20)
• Beyond ethnocentrism and how each stage has its traps: one trap is the denial of any differences between races, which isn’t right either (47:21)
• Deracialization and the fundamental concept of our identity: making sense of the complex terms race and identity (50:06)
• It’s not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview (53:57)
• Perspectival and participatory knowing are crucial, so we can engage with one another and develop skills of interaction (56:09)
• The swing era of the 1930s, stomping the blues, and group flow (58:29)

• Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence
• Tune in to Leadership blog (powered by the Jazz Leadership Project)
• The Omni-American Future Project, fighting against bigotry and anti-semitism through cultural, moral, spiritual excellence
• Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man*, The Collected Essays of Ralph Ellison*
• Albert Murray, blues philosopher, Murray Talks Music*, The Hero and the Blues*, Stomping the Blues*, The Omni-Americans: Some Alternatives to the Folklore of White Supremacy*
• Ralph Ellison & Albert Murray, Trading Twelves: The Selected Letters of Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray*
• The Glenn Show (Glenn Loury), Debating Deracialization with Glenn Loury, Greg Thomas and John McWhorter
• What’s the Future (WTF) and What Can We Do About It? Integral Conference
• Ken Wilber’s Four Quadrants (Integral Life’s What Are the Four Quadrants?)
• Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything*
• Religion in Africa, Syncretism 
• Kabbalah’s Tree of Life
• The 8 zones of the Integral Map (Integral Life’s The 8 Perspectival Zones of Emergence)
• The Age of Enlightenment
• Ken Wilber on The Pre/Trans Fallacy (Integral Life)
• John Vervaeke, award-winning lecturer on subjects like Awakening from the Meaning Crisis
• Rick Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind*
• Aesop’s fable The North Wind and the Sun
• Integral Spirituality series course A Deeper Cut
• Spiral Dynamics, a model of evolutionary development
• Kwame Anthony Appiah, Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers*, The Lies That Bind: Rethinking Identity*
• Danielle Allen, Justice by Means of Democracy*
• Henry Murray’s system of needs
• Confucious’ rectification of names
• Greg Thomas, Considering Deracialization, first published in the Institute for Cultural Evolution’s journal The Developmentalist 
• Steve McIntosh, director & co-founder, Institute for Cultural Evolution, author, Developmental Politics* (see also Deep Transformation podcast episode 20, Consciousness Evolves, Politics Can Too)
• Greg Thomas, Deracialization Now: A Response to Glenn Loury & Clifton Roscoe, published at Tune into Leadership.com, Greg’s Jazz Leadership Project blog, and also at Free Black Thought
• John Vervaeke, cognitive scientist, philosopher, psychologist, new YouTube series After Socrates
• Jack Kerouac, On the Road*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Greg Thomas is CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence. Along with his wife and partner Jewel, the Jazz Leadership Project works with notable firms such as JPMorgan Chase, Verizon, TD Bank, and Google. The leadership blog TuneIntoLeadership.com features their writings. Greg has been a professional journalist for over 25 years. He is currently a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Cultural Evolution. As an educator, Greg recently taught a course, “Cultural Intelligence: Transcending Race, Embracing Cosmos,” and co-facilitated a six-month class in 2022, titled “Stepping Up: Wrestling with America’s Past, Reimagining Its Future, Healing Together.”

As Co-Director of the Omni-American Future Project, Greg co-produced a two-day broadcast and awards ceremony, “Combating Racism and Antisemitism Together: Shaping an Omni-American Future” in October 2021 and the second annual event in November 2022, “Straight Ahead: An Omni-American Future, Fighting Bigotry Together.” In September 2022, Greg co-facilitated a one-day conference, “Resolving the Race-ism Dilemma.” He also serves on the advisory boards of The Consilience Project, and FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. 

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 76 (Part 2 of 2) | Enneagram expert, teacher, master facilitator, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger leads us into the world of the Enneagram, not typology point by point—here Leslie paints a broader, deeper picture of the Enneagram and its uses as a psycho-spiritual tool than is commonly understood. Leslie explains how the Enneagram provides the psychological foundation for each individual to navigate their inner world more skillfully. A wealth of knowledge comes with recognizing the center you orient from—head, heart, or body—and your type’s tendencies, freeing up energy within us to move out of negative patterns into virtuous ones. With the insights the Enneagram provides, we can develop practices tailored to our specific personality structure that help with everyday challenges and vicissitudes, with being more present in our relationships, and with opening to spiritual presence.

Listening to Leslie, one feels the energy of rising awareness as her anecdotes about various different Enneagram types’ ways of relating to themselves, others, and the world ring decisively true, matching our own experience. Leslie’s passion for guiding people who are ready to make “the inward turn” in using the Enneagram as a map is clearly palpable. And though she is a longtime contemplative, Leslie is all about boots-on-the-ground action: meeting people where they are at, providing support and guidance, and reflecting back to all whom she encounters a truly awe-inspiring, Enneagram-informed, and integral understanding. Recorded January 9, 2023.

Please enjoy a 20-minute guided meditation, led by Leslie, at the end of part 2 of this podcast. Leslie originally led this meditation for Roger, John, and the Deep Transformation team right before the podcast was recorded, so they could experience her Enneagram-informed techniques that help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally.

“The Enneagram is a vehicle for spiritual presence—for spiritual experience.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Truth decay: when insights decay into dogma, practices devolve into ritual (01:34)
• Leslie’s disappointment with the dilution of the value of the Enneagram in popular culture and the common tendency to over identify with one’s type (05:39)
• Building in practices for making the inward turn when our type gets triggered (07:34)
• How everyone interprets the Enneagram according to their stage of development: language matters (09:58)
• How knowledge of the 3 centers (head, heart, body) enables us to understand different perspectives and be more present with others (13:23)
• Recommended books for people new to the Enneagram: The Complete Enneagram by Dr. Beatrice Chestnut, The Essential Enneagram by Dr. David Daniels, and more (see resources below) (16:39)
• Is there any research on the Enneagram? (18:06)
• Looking at the Enneagram from the centers perspective is a good portal of entry, and the differences between heart, head, and body types (19:23)
• Back to research: more research could refine the value of the Enneagram (25:00)
• Working with your core vice within a contemplative practice is when things really start to cook (33:48)
• How does your type change over time with an ongoing contemplative practice? The challenge of embodying a healthy type structure 24/7 (36:02)
• The reality is we all have limits (38:27)
• The importance of understanding the centers approach to the Enneagram and understanding that our psychological structure is housed in the body (47:12)
• What do women want from men? A heart connection and kindness (49:21)
• 20-minute guided meditation led by Leslie to help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally (55:56)

• Spotlight, 2015 film following the Boston Globe’s investigation into the pedophilia crisis in the Catholic church
• Ken Wilber’s Altitudes of Development on the Daily Evolver website
• Muhammad: “Speak to people only according to their level of knowledge…”
• Beatrice Chestnut, The Complete Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommendation for a good comprehensive overview of the Enneagram, looking at the Enneagram through an archetypal lens)
• David Daniels, The Essential Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommended book for understanding the structure of the types)
• Ginger Lapid-Bogda, Bringing Out the Best in Yourself at Work* (Leslie’s recommendation for applying the Enneagram’s wisdom in the workplace) 
• David Daniels, Terry Saracino, Meghan Fraley, Jennifer Christian & Seth Pardo, “Advancing Ego Development in Adulthood through Study of the Enneagram System of Personality”
• Ginger Lapid-Bogda, PhD, Enneagram author, teacher, keynote speaker, and organization development consultant, trainer, and coach
• Sandra Maitri, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul* (Leslie’s recommendation around the spiritual dimension of the Enneagram)
• Helen Palmer, The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life*
• Scared straight! therapy and the Barnum effect 
• Michel (Roland) Gauquelin,  A Killer Horoscope
• Dr. David Daniels, co-founder of The Narrative Enneagram training school 
• Ken Wilber, The Marriage of Sense and Soul*
• Jack Killen, David Daniels & Kristin Arthur, “Biology and Personal Transformation: Bridging Science and the Enneagram” (informed also by the work of Dan Siegel)
• Jack Killen, Toward the Neurobiology of the Enneagram
• The International Enneagram Association 
• Benedictine nun Suzanne Zuercher, Enneagram Spirituality: From Compulsion to Contemplation*
• Rachel Naomi Remen, My Grandfather’s Blessings: Stories of Strength, Refuge, and Belonging*
• Aldous Huxley, Island* and The Perennial Philosophy*
• Leslie Hershberger.com: Transformational Consulting, Facilitation, Coaching
• Leslie’s course Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, a self-paced course and online space to learn the Enneagram in all 3 centers: head, heart, body
• Leslie’s YouTube channel
• Recommended typing test: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/enneagram-test/#test-section

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Teacher, theologian, spiritual guide, and master facilitator, Leslie Hershberger is the founder of The Three-Centered Enneagram, and offers both corporate and contemplative workshops, retreats, and keynotes throughout the U.S. and in Europe. She designed the online course The Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, which is both a deep and a practical way of developing embodied emotional and social intelligence. Leslie integrates the Enneagram, three-centered contemplative practice, and Integral Theory in her work.

Leslie’s core mission is facilitating practice based in all 3 centers: head, heart, and body. She supports others in integrating psychological awareness and opening to wise, embodied spiritual Presence, especially during times of significant transition: social change, religious transition, second half of life, changing bodies, illness, grief, loss and the inevitable relationship challenges with those we care about most. She also supports many “post-church” pastors and people who have experienced a religious deconstruction and are looking for a way forward. Leslie was recently honored by Xavier University with the William and Anna Madges award for distinguished contribution to society.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell