Deep Transformation

Ep. 75 (Part 1 of 2) | Enneagram expert, teacher, master facilitator, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger leads us into the world of the Enneagram, not typology point by point—here Leslie paints a broader, deeper picture of the Enneagram and its uses as a psycho-spiritual tool than is commonly understood. Leslie explains how the Enneagram provides the psychological foundation for each individual to navigate their inner world more skillfully. A wealth of knowledge comes with recognizing the center you orient from—head, heart, or body—and your type’s tendencies, freeing up energy within us to move out of negative patterns into virtuous ones. With the insights the Enneagram provides, we can develop practices tailored to our specific personality structure that help with everyday challenges and vicissitudes, with being more present in our relationships, and with opening to spiritual presence.

Listening to Leslie, one feels the energy of rising awareness as her anecdotes about various different Enneagram types’ ways of relating to themselves, others, and the world ring decisively true, matching our own experience. Leslie’s passion for guiding people who are ready to make “the inward turn” in using the Enneagram as a map is clearly palpable. And though she is a longtime contemplative, Leslie is all about boots-on-the-ground action: meeting people where they are at, providing support and guidance, and reflecting back to all whom she encounters a truly awe-inspiring, Enneagram-informed, and integral understanding. Recorded January 9, 2023.

Please enjoy a 20-minute guided meditation, led by Leslie, at the end of part 2 of this podcast. Leslie originally led this meditation for Roger, John, and the Deep Transformation team right before the podcast was recorded, so they could experience her Enneagram-informed techniques that help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally.

“The Enneagram is a vehicle for spiritual presence—for spiritual experience.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing gifted Enneagram teacher, contemplative practitioner, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger (01:10)
• How 1’s are driven by the inner critic and the desire to perfect themselves and others (04:11)
• Given our Enneagram type, we tend to contract in a certain sector of reality—this is a literal, physical contraction (05:15)
• The Enneagram provides a map of the 9 different tendencies of contracting against life force, against spiritual presence (08:56)
• Each type has a cognitive habit that sits upon the energy of an emotional habit; this energy is there for spiritual conversion (09:59)
• The skillful response is inherent in the awareness of the contraction (13:12)
• Each type has a particular defense mechanism which is the glue that holds our structure together (15:13)
• Anger, fear, and sadness (the 3 afflictions) are in everyone, but each of us is driven by one of these predominantly, according to our type (19:19)
• Where the Enneagram fits in the larger field of personality typing and how it shows up in early contemplative traditions (24:44)
• The Enneagram is a useful, practical, psychological typology—but it’s also a spiritual tool (26:38)
• The Enneagram types you from your blind spots and the places that are hard to see (28:47)
• The 3 instinctual subtypes: social, sexual, and self-preservation (29:52)
• On 6’s: doubt, projection, and amplified hazards (30:56)
• Teaching people their ego structure using panels of types in the narrative tradition (34:33)
• The importance of meditation and somatic experiencing and how the type structures are housed in the body (36:29)
• The vice to virtue conversion for each type: each type has a predominant vice and a predominant virtue (37:00)
• Our fundamental root dysfunctions give birth to wisdom—our vices contain the energy for us to transform (42:14)
• How Integral Theory’s teachings on higher states of consciousness and the difference between stages and states complement the teachings of the Enneagram (48:29)
• Illuminating the essential elements of the psychological structure: “Mysticism and spirituality are not enough…Social action and therapeutic caring are not enough…” Jacob Needleman’s teaching is foundational to Leslie’s integral approach (50:02)
• Finding one’s core piece of suffering, relaxing into it and giving it some space, then tasting the virtue (52:09)
• How Leslie discovered Buddhist meditation, the contemplative (well-hidden) arm of Catholicism, and Centering Prayer (53:15)
• What’s a portal for people with a real allergy to religion? The Enneagream provides a bridge for the inward turn (55:42)

• Leslie Hershberger.com: Transformational Consulting, Facilitation, Coaching
• Leslie’s course Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, a self-paced course and online space to learn the Enneagram in all 3 centers: head, heart, body
• Leslie’s YouTube channel
• Leslie’s courses Coming Home: An Integral Christian Practicum and Between You and Love: An Enneagram Course, hosted on Integral Life
• Integral Enneagram web course Patterns of Being, co-facilitated with Helen Palmer, also hosted on Integral Life
• The Narrative Enneagram Lifelong Learning programs, co-facilitated by Leslie Hershberger
• Helen Palmer, The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life*
• Henri Nouwen, The Way of the Heart: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers*
• Evagrius Ponticus (Evagrius the Solitary), Christian monk and ascetic
• Virgina Wiltse, PhD & Helen Palmer, Hidden in Plain Sight: Observations on the Origins of the Enneagram
• St. John of the Cross, Dark Night of the Soul*
• Meyers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI)
• Jacob Needleman, Lost Christianity*
• Jack Kornfield’s audio The Inner Art of Meditation*
• Thomas Keating, Centering Prayer, Intimacy with God: An Introduction to Centering Prayer*
• Cynthia Bourgeault, Christian contemplative, internationally acclaimed retreat leader, and author of The Corner of Fourth and Nondual* et al.
• Ian Cron & Suzanne Stabile, The Road Back to You*
• Richard Rohr, Franciscan priest and writer, Everything Belongs: The Gift of Contemplative Prayer*
• Beatrice Chestnut, The Complete Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommendation for a good comprehensive overview of the Enneagram, looking at the Enneagram through an archetypal lens)
• David Daniels, The Essential Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommended book for understanding the structure of the types)
• Ginger Lapid-Bogda, Bringing Out the Best in Yourself at Work* (Leslie’s recommendation for applying the Enneagram’s wisdom in the workplace) 
• Sandra Maitri, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul* (Leslie’s recommendation around the spiritual dimension of the Enneagram)
• Recommended typing test: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/enneagram-test/#test-section

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Teacher, theologian, spiritual guide, and master facilitator, Leslie Hershberger is the founder of The Three-Centered Enneagram, and offers both corporate and contemplative workshops, retreats, and keynotes throughout the U.S. and in Europe. She designed the online course The Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, which is both a deep and a practical way of developing embodied emotional and social intelligence. Leslie integrates the Enneagram, three-centered contemplative practice, and Integral Theory in her work.

Leslie’s core mission is facilitating practice based in all 3 centers: head, heart, and body. She supports others in integrating psychological awareness and opening to wise, embodied spiritual Presence, especially during times of significant transition: social change, religious transition, second half of life, changing bodies, illness, grief, loss and the inevitable relationship challenges with those we care about most. She also supports many “post-church” pastors and people who have experienced a religious deconstruction and are looking for a way forward. Leslie was recently honored by Xavier University with the William and Anna Madges award for distinguished contribution to society.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 74 (Part 2 of 2) | Daniel Schmachtenberger, one of the most brilliant and integrative thinkers of our time, expresses here his deep love and appreciation for reality itself. Daniel’s inquiries have led him to perceive the intrinsic beauty of the wholeness of reality and to the realization that everything is interesting—just like when you love someone, everything about them becomes fascinating. Along with this deep appreciation comes the desire to serve and protect, and Daniel is focused on investigating the drivers of the metacrisis and how best to meet the difficult challenges it presents, a subject interwoven in this conversation with Daniel’s findings and ideas about reality, human psychology, education, and the future of the planet.

Daniel is a wonderful testament to the far reaching effects of the right kind of education. He relates how he was homeschooled by parents who set him on the path towards goodness, meaning, and beauty right from the start, and who were dedicated to facilitating his interest wherever it led, to include systems theory and how to create a better world. This is a beautiful, rich conversation filled with gems of knowledge and insight—about our human family (actually, the lack of one), the horrible deficit of fathering in modern culture, how we can orient to the sacred and the meaningful, the fact that we actually didn’t evolve to deal with the crises we face now but to negotiate successfully as members of a tribe of around 150 people, and much more. Recorded January 10, 2023.

 “I cannot imagine a context in which one’s choices matter more.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Does Daniel believe in God? (01:48)
• In Daniel’s “The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 Things,” he asks, “Do atoms exist? Kind of! (08:23)
• The traps of reductionism in facing the metacrisis and how Daniel transcends them (10:49)
• The relation of physical crises to crises of consciousness: co-informing and co-arising facets of an integrative reality (13:11)
• Omni determinism, omni influence (16:31)
• Marvin Harris’ framework for understanding civilization: infrastructure, social structure, and superstructure (17:19)
• What in the interiority of human psyches, experiences & cultures are key drivers of the problems of the world? And how does our changed human genome, microbiome, and neurochemistry fit in? (19:00)
• We evolved to have attachments to 150 people—our tribe—so everything about bonding, attachment theory, the ideas of co-dependence & interdependence evolved in a tribal setting, in fact, we did not evolve to deal with what is going on now (21:22)
• The psychological generator function of the metacrisis results from perceiving the world as fragmented or made up of parts: conflict theory & mistake theory (23:34)
• The Realpolitik assessment of humans: we are dumb and nasty (25:54)
• It’s all based on a trade-off—we’re either trying to benefit ourselves now at the expense of our future selves, individually or collectively, or we just don’t realize the harm that is caused by what we do (27:26)
• Can we survive the current unprecedented metacrisis? No chance can we make it through without the catastrophes intensifying (30:08)
• The human family is not a real thing right now: there is no “we” (34:59)
• How to live a meaningful life? Deeply appreciate and honor the beauty of life, be in service to the beauty of reality, and deepen the capacity for both (37:33)
• Dharma inquiry and the vow of the bodhisattva (41:47) 
• Where is the vow of the bodhisattva missing something? (44:09)
• It’s not just what is my unique calling but also what needs doing that no one else wants to do? (46:19)
• One beautiful peak experience is worth all the pain (50:00)

• Learning theory describes how people receive, process, and retain information
• Tao Te Ching* (new English version translated by Stephen Mitchell)
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 Things
• Werner Heisenberg, theoretical physicist and one of the main pioneers of the theory of quantum mechanics
• Erwin Schrödinger, Nobel Prize-winning physicist who developed a number of fundamental results in quantum theory, including the Schrödinger equation
• Buddhist Śūnyatā and Huayan philosophies
• “Technology is Not Values Neutral: Ending the Reign of Nihilistic Design,” overview of the work of Marvin Harris, Marshall McLuhan (on Consilience Project website) et al.
• Marvin Harris, anthropologist and writer, highly influential on the subjects of cultural materialism and environmental determinism
• Marshall McLuhan, philosopher who focused on the relationship between media and culture and developed the concept of technological determinism 
• Nate Hagens’ 5-part podcast with Daniel Schmachtenberger on the environment, energy, and how does one deal with the reality of the metacrisis? (YouTube)
• David Bohm on Wholeness & Fragmentation (YouTube)
• R. Buckminster Fuller, Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth*
• Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space*
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, How to Live a Meaningful Life?
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, Dharma Inquiry
• The vow of the bodhisattva
• Alex Grey, Sacred Mirrors*
• Poets Hafiz and Rumi
• Daniel Schmachtenberger’s website Explorations on the Future of Civilization
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue 

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue. The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal. Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse, as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science.

Motivated by the belief that advancing collective intelligence and capacity is foundational to the integrity of any civilization, and necessary to address the unique risks we currently face given the intersection of globalization and exponential technology, he has spoken publicly on many of these topics, hoping to popularize and deepen important conversations and engage more people in working towards their solutions. Many of these can be found at http://civilizationemerging.com/media/. You can find more information about The Consilience Project at https://consilienceproject.org/.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 73 (Part 1 of 2) | Daniel Schmachtenberger, one of the most brilliant and integrative thinkers of our time, expresses here his deep love and appreciation for reality itself. Daniel’s inquiries have led him to perceive the intrinsic beauty of the wholeness of reality and to the realization that everything is interesting—just like when you love someone, everything about them becomes fascinating. Along with this deep appreciation comes the desire to serve and protect, and Daniel is focused on investigating the drivers of the metacrisis and how best to meet the difficult challenges it presents, a subject interwoven in this conversation with Daniel’s findings and ideas about reality, human psychology, education, and the future of the planet.

Daniel is a wonderful testament to the far reaching effects of the right kind of education. He relates how he was homeschooled by parents who set him on the path towards goodness, meaning, and beauty right from the start, and who were dedicated to facilitating his interest wherever it led, to include systems theory and how to create a better world. This is a beautiful, rich conversation filled with gems of knowledge and insight—about our human family (actually, the lack of one), the horrible deficit of fathering in modern culture, how we can orient to the sacred and the meaningful, the fact that we actually didn’t evolve to deal with the crises we face now but to negotiate successfully as members of a tribe of around 150 people, and much more. Recorded January 10, 2023.

 “I cannot imagine a context in which one’s choices matter more.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing brilliant integrative thinker Daniel Schmachtenberger (01:32)
• Finding meaning in the sacred dimensions of our world and the integrated wholeness of reality (03:52)
• Part of love is the desire to know everything about your partner—when loving reality, everything becomes interesting (05:47)
• The fractal nature of reality, looking at it through different lenses and receiving different insights, and how the more perspectives you take, the more depth and richness you perceive (07:13)
• Is there something about the nature of the effort to solve world problems that is at fault in their getting worse? (08:36)
• Daniel’s homeschooling parents set him on the path to following what is good, meaningful, and beautiful right from the start (10:22)
• If you facilitate children’s interest, they end up deep learning in many subjects (12:24)
• Daniel’s early education included systems theory and how to make a better world (14:46)
• How did Daniel come to be such an integrative thinker? Compartmentalized education vs integrated education (16:32)
• The decline of quality aristocratic tutoring has led to the decline of super geniuses (19:58)
• Are we all the result of our education? Tutors and mentors (28:11)
• Integrating across ontology and epistemology, and asking what is the generator function of novel insight? (29:07) 
• Man’s greatest purpose is to serve the family of man: women, nature, children (33:07)
• The gruesome deficit of fathering in the world and what Daniel learned about being a man from his dad (35:19)
• On forgiveness, therapy, healing, catalyzing gifts (43:22)
• How do spiritual depths inform our contemporary crises? Needing to ask why we should protect nature shows a real pathological deficit (49:37)
• Orientation to the sacred and the meaningfulness of life forms through a deep bandwidth of connection and sensing (52:39)
• Learning more about the field of conceptuality can both interfere with one’s connection to the Tao and enhance it (55:39)

• Daniel Schmachtenberger’s website Explorations on the Future of Civilization
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue 
• Kahlil Gibran, writer, poet, author of The Prophet*, one of the best-selling books of all time
• Complexity theory uses the study of complexity systems in the field of strategic management and organizational studies, drawing from research in the natural sciences
• David Bohm, one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century
• John Dewey, philosopher, psychologist, and educational reformer with a profound belief in democracy
• Maria Montessori, physician, educator, founder of the Montessori method of education
• Rudolf Steiner, philosopher, social reformer, founder of the esoteric spiritual movement anthroposophy
• Buckminster Fuller, 20th century inventor & visionary, who coined the term design science, author of Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking*
• Krishnamurti, philosopher, speaker, writer, interested in psychological revolution and radical social change
• Fritjof Kapra, author of The Tao of Physics* and The Systems View of Life*, applies complexity theory to large-scale social interaction in The Hidden Connections: A Science for Sustainable Living*
• Zachary Stein, educator, futurist, philosopher, author of Education in a Time Between Worlds*, see also Deep Transformation episode 61, The Future of Education and Civilization
• Erik Hoel, “Why We Stopped Making Einsteins”
• Marcus Aurelius, philosopher and Emperor of Rome, author of Meditations*
• Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich*
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, What I learned about being a man from my Dad
• Artists Dali & Picasso, poets Gibran & Blake
• Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth*
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 Things
• Samantha Sweetwater, soul mentor, wisdom teacher

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue. The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal. Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse, as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science.

Motivated by the belief that advancing collective intelligence and capacity is foundational to the integrity of any civilization, and necessary to address the unique risks we currently face given the intersection of globalization and exponential technology, he has spoken publicly on many of these topics, hoping to popularize and deepen important conversations and engage more people in working towards their solutions. Many of these can be found at http://civilizationemerging.com/media/. You can find more information about The Consilience Project at https://consilienceproject.org/.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 72 (Part 3 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? 

It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.

“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• What metatheory is and what it is not: integrative metatheories explore how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other (01:35)
• Big picture models are antidotes to the single focus fallacies, single issue fallacies, single cause fallacies, and single solution fallacies (04:07)
• Developmentally, the majority of people are at a stage of “advanced linear thinking” and the metacrisis requires “advanced systems thinking” (05:21)
• People need 3 things to grow under stress instead of regress: context, pointing a way out, and being told what we can do individually (06:46)
• How do we communicate the urgency without invoking the psychology of fear? (09:08)
• The crucial window to transform the very foundations of our civilization is between now and 2030 (10:18)
• What can we do? We’re still working on the context but we need to have a collective conversation to figure out what is the path out, or the possible paths out (11:20)
• A core developmental practice we can actually do is perspective taking, perspective seeking, and perspective coordinating (14:28)
• Ego death is all along the path; we need to keep opening up to a bigger version of ourselves (16:15)
• Taking perspectives is not enough (18:37)
• Business as usual is not going to happen—how do we create new educational systems to transform the world in the ways that are needed? (21:10)
• The importance of sounding our note, sitting in prayer in humility, and asking, what can I do? (25:10)
• Pessimism and optimism are both ego strategies to deal with uncertainty; we need to learn to rest in uncertainty individually and collectively because no one knows what will happen (27:20)
• How has grappling with the problems of the metacrisis changed Nick and Sean? (31:16)
• Where is the hope? (36:44)

• Hanzi Freinacht, The Listening Society*
• Bildung links philosophy and education for both personal and cultural maturation
• Jonathan Rowson, “Bildung in the 21st Century: Why Sustainable Prosperity Depends on Reimagining Education”
• Joanna Macy & Chris Johnstone, Active Hope: How to Face the Mess We’re In Without Going Crazy*
• A.H. Almaas, creator of The Diamond Approach, see also Diamond Approach YouTube videos with A. H. Almaas, and Deep Transformation episode 43, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality and How Awakenings Can Unfold Endlessly (also available on YouTube)
• Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*
• Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*
• Nicholas Hedlund’s Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. 
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organization
• Nick Hedlund, founding director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishing

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.

Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 71 (Part 2 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? 

It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.

“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• The difference between dialogue and debate: being willing to have one’s mind changed and opening up the opportunity for real dialogue (01:23)
• The critical reality principle/truth that we all share one world (03:07)
• The call to evolve together and mature spiritually (05:14)
• Reasons to be optimistic and reasons to be concerned about what lies ahead: the metacrisis will be a developmental catalyst for some but not all (07:33)
• The integral ecology mantra: things are getting better, things are also getting worse, and the eternal nature of perfection (09:33) 
• How can we speak to the fears of the people? The failure of liberal globalism, the rise of conservatism, and the search for higher political ground (12:01)
• Learning to listen to reality itself and what is being communicated by the profound intelligence of nature (15:03)
• What steps can we take to contribute to the full system reboot that is needed now? Cultivating the reverent heart sensibility (21:15)
• Applying big picture maps to addressing aspects of the metacrisis: six qualities pointing to the ways in which we need to be connected in order to make any progress (22:56) 
• How can we all be friends? Cultivating filia, connecting heart to heart, is the secret ingredient to the success of long term collaboration (28:11)
• How do we scale heart connection among humans? (35:43)
• We need more expressive capacity as a humanity, which metatheories can help us with (37:47)

• Daniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue
• Carl Rogers, great American psychologist, Journal of Humanistic Psychology: The Rust Workshop (The Central American Challenge)
• Robert Kegan’s story about how people with irreconcilable views about abortion discovered their common humanity and came to care about each other, as retold by author, educator & scientist James Conklin
• Carl Rogers, “When I look at the world I am pessimistic…”
• John Dupuy, Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction*
• Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*
• Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*
• Nicholas Hedlund’s Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. 
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organization
• Nick Hedlund, founder director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishing

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.

Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 70 (Part 1 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? 

It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.

“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing philosophers Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, who coined the term metacrisis (01:30)
• Nick’s mystical experiences early on and awareness of the crisis the Earth is facing led him to find a way to study the big picture beyond the partial perspectives offered in different university departments (02:57)
• For Nick, the metacrisis is connected with his own spiritual path and the questions “Who am I?” “Why am I here?” and “What does it mean to be human at this time?” (06:34)
• Sean started with studying animal consciousness, then added philosophy, psychology, and biology for an interdisciplinary understanding, focusing on ways of relating to the natural world—environmental philosophy (07:10)
• Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory brought Sean into deeper contact with nature, culture, and consciousness, and opened his heart (10:45)
• Nick & Sean coined the term “metacrisis” to illuminate more than simply the sum of all the crises, but also how they overlap and intertwine: the holistic complexity (13:01)
• Wicked problems: if we solve any of the crises, the solution grows more problems (14:45)
• All the crises share a network of root causes, deeper causal structures that underlie the symptoms we are experiencing—crises of interiority & spirituality, sensemaking & meaning making, are drivers of the rest (15:17)
• Our global problems are actually global symptoms (16:55)
• Nick & Sean created a big picture symposium series where scholars/practitioners familiar with Roy Bashkar’s critical realism and Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory (and familiar with the work of Edgar Morin, who uses the term “polycrisis”) came together to dialogue (17:45)
• The value of integrative metatheory: bringing the metacrisis into view, exploring the relationship between culture, consciousness, and nature, allowing us to actually talk about the situation and coordinate ourselves into action (19:18)
• Why is having a good theory of ontology (Bashkar’s critical realism) and of consciousness (Wilber’s Integral Theory) necessary? (21:54)
• Ontology = the study of reality, the study of being, the truth of things beyond our knowledge about them vs. epistemology which is our knowledge—how we know the world and gain knowledge about reality (22:48)
• Critical realism: there is something real, a deep strata, beyond what we see or observe (24:44)
• What are some of the great challenges and the core elements of the metacrisis? (26:05)
• The ecological crisis and sense of urgency because we have crossed many of the planetary boundaries, e.g. with CO2 (28:40)
• The ecosocial crisis, the ethical crisis, the existential crisis form the (external) polycrisis (30:17)
• The epistemic crisis of sensemaking is an internal crisis (31:29)
• Worldview clashes and an Integral forestry story of successfully building communication: taking perspectives, seeking perspectives, and coordinating perspectives (32:50)

• Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*
• Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*
• Nicholas Hedlund's Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. 
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organization
• Nick Hedlund, founding director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishing
• Ken Wilber, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality*
• Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything*
• Edgar Morin, French philosopher and sociologist who uses the term polycrisis
• California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS)
• Roy Bhaskar, English philosopher of science who initiated the philosophical movement of critical realism
• Andrew Collier, Critical Realism: An Introduction to Roy Bhaskar’s Philosophy*
• Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory: Integral Life’s What is the Integral Approach?, The Integral Vision: A Very Short Introduction to the Revolutionary Integral Approach to Life, God, the Universe, and Everything*
• Zachary Stein, author of Education in a Time Between Worlds: Essays on the Future of Schools, Technology & Society*, co-founder of The Consilience Project, see also Deep Transformation episode #61, The Future of Education & Civilization
• Daniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue 
• Jonathan Rowson, co-founder and director of Perspectiva, systems-soul-society.com, anthology Dispatches from a Time Between Worlds: Crisis and Emergence in Metamodernity*, see also Deep Transformation episode #17, Making Friends with Conflict, Metamodernity, Construct Awareness, and Other Ways of Facing the Current Metacrisis
• Jane Loevinger’s Stages of Ego Development, Ego Development,* Paradigms of Personality*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.

Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 69 (Part 3 of 3) | Corey deVos is the heart and center of Integral Life, the organization that revolves around the work of Ken Wilber. Corey became passionate about Integral Theory at the age of 19, and in this lively conversation, he is clearly every bit as passionate about the actuality and the promise of Integral today. Here, Corey gives a terrifically lucid explanation of what the term Integral encompasses: a stage of psychological development, a description of Ken Wilber’s life’s work, and a comprehensive map that comes alive for people, guiding their way and making sense out of enormously complex issues. Corey also describes Integral as a gateway between two massive phases in human history—the “adolescent” phase of collective development now starting to fall behind us and an integrated phase quite possibly ahead.

Corey infuses the complex topics under discussion—the Integral metatheory, social issues that never seem to get resolved, human evolution itself—with optimism and enthusiasm, clarity and light, a testament to his own embodiment of Integral consciousness. At Integral Life, Corey co-hosts The Ken Show (with Ken Wilber), applies Integral to social issues like racism and justice in his podcast series, and excels at finding creative ways of translating the complexities of Integral Theory into easy-to-understand nuggets of information. This conversation is a brilliant, beautiful illumination of the Integral vision, covering how Integral has evolved and describing what it can do for our future. Recorded on November 10, 2022.

“The more we can make room for each other’s perspective…that’s how you go about solving the kind of political tribalization and polarization that is so prominent today.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• The early days of Integral after the end of its “dark ages” (01:50)
• What was Integral Naked exactly? (03:18)
• Robb Smith takes over the leadership of Integral Life (06:16)
• The early days conversations are as relevant today as when they were recorded (08:57)
• The evolution of Integral Life, what’s going on now: political sensemaking, intra personal development, live community practice groups, and much more (10:08)
• Corey’s development of trust and confidence doing the work: from instrument to symphony (15:50)
• Carrying on the flame that was ignited by Ken Wilber (20:30)
• The curse of Ken Wilber is being born ahead of his time (22:04)
• What is most exciting to Corey right now? Taking Integral ideas and expressing them artistically with woodwork (24:41)
• Where is Integral headed? As the framework is applied in the world, it’s going to start generating real impact (28:25)
• Integralists are growing up, cleaning up, and now is the time for a collective “showing up” (30:51)

• Alex Gray, visual artist known for creating spiritual & psychedelic paintings
• Robert Kegan, developmental psychologist, author of The Evolving Self*
• Billy Corgan, the Smashing Pumpkins’ lead singer, primary songwriter, and guitarist
• Stone Gossard, guitarist and songwriter for Pearl Jam
• Saul Williams, rapper, singer/songwriter, poet, actor
• Serj Tankian, songwriter, political activist, lead singer in System of a Down
• Robb Smith, founder and CEO of Integral Life
• James Turner, D.C. lawyer and author of The Chemical Feast: Ralph Nader’s Study Group Report on the Food and Drug Administration*
• Jim Garrison, founder and president of Ubiquity University
• Mark Fischler, co-host of The Integral Justice Warrior series with Corey deVos
• Dr. Keith Witt, clinical psychologist and frequent guest on Integral Life podcasts
• Jeff Salzman, host of The Daily Evolver podcast
• Integral Life Practice community
• Ryan Oelke, meditation, mindfulness, and dharma teacher
• The Joe Rogan Experience podcast
• Gail Hochachka, co-founder of Integral Without Borders and author of Developing Sustainability, Developing the Self*
• Roger Walsh, The State of the Integral Enterprise (article in the Journal of Integral Theory and Practice)
• Bence Ganti, founder of the IEC global integral conferences: Integral European Conference 2023, Planetary Awakening 2.0
• Ken Wilber, One Taste* 
• Corey deVos, Executive Producer at IntegralLife.com
• Corey deVos’ intro to Integral video: Holons: The Building Blocks of the Universe (YouTube)
• Build Your Integral Life, free Integral Life course for beginners
• Corey’s art website, Vision Logix Woodworking

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Corey deVos is the Executive Producer of Integral Life, an online media platform that focuses on the application of Integral Theory to personal and social transformation. Integral Theory is a comprehensive framework that seeks to integrate multiple perspectives, including the subjective, objective, inter-subjective, and inter-objective dimensions of human experience.

Corey deVos is also a writer, woodworker, musician, and teacher, who has been involved in the integral community for many years. He is a frequent host and guest on Integral Life’s podcast, where he engages in deep conversations with leading thinkers, artists, and practitioners in the integral world. He is known for his ability to articulate complex ideas in a clear and accessible manner, and for his commitment to fostering a more inclusive and integrated worldview. Corey is a devoted father and husband, and lives with his family in Longmont, Colorado.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 68 (Part 2 of 3) | Corey deVos is the heart and center of Integral Life, the organization that revolves around the work of Ken Wilber. Corey became passionate about Integral Theory at the age of 19, and in this lively conversation, he is clearly every bit as passionate about the actuality and the promise of Integral today. Here, Corey gives a terrifically lucid explanation of what the term Integral encompasses: a stage of psychological development, a description of Ken Wilber’s life’s work, and a comprehensive map that comes alive for people, guiding their way and making sense out of enormously complex issues. Corey also describes Integral as a gateway between two massive phases in human history—the “adolescent” phase of collective development now starting to fall behind us and an integrated phase quite possibly ahead.

Corey infuses the complex topics under discussion—the Integral metatheory, social issues that never seem to get resolved, human evolution itself—with optimism and enthusiasm, clarity and light, a testament to his own embodiment of Integral consciousness. At Integral Life, Corey co-hosts The Ken Show (with Ken Wilber), applies Integral to social issues like racism and justice in his podcast series, and excels at finding creative ways of translating the complexities of Integral Theory into easy-to-understand nuggets of information. This conversation is a brilliant, beautiful illumination of the Integral vision, covering how Integral has evolved and describing what it can do for our future. Recorded on November 10, 2022.

“The more we can make room for each other’s perspective…that’s how you go about solving the kind of political tribalization and polarization that is so prominent today.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• In appreciation of Ken Wilber’s kindness and generosity (00:48)
• The Integral vision, the concept of “vision-logic,” and the geometry of consciousness (02:23)
• Corey’s creativity using mainstream movie clips to communicate the complexity of each Integral stage of development in a nutshell (05:18)
• How Corey applies Integral to the major social issues of our time (09:21)
• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos (10:38)
• The Ken Show with Ken Wilber and Corey deVos (13:18)
• The Integral map’s four quadrants explained (14:47)
• The Integral heart is an empathetic heart (18:14) 
• The 8 zones of racism: can we create a frame in which both a “woke” person and a traditional person can find themselves? (20:28)
• How can we talk about systemic racism (or any other issue) from different developmental perspectives and find common ground? (23:22)
• Stumbling our way towards Integral and finding out that the territory is actually real (26:21)
• The evolution of Integral, symbol of wholeness (32:47)
• How Corey came to be knocking on Ken’s door and his intention to create a way for people to become transformed by Integral yet not feel alone in this (34:41)

• John Dupuy, Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction*
• Ken Wilber, The Spectrum of Consciousness*
• Corey’s art website, Vision Logix Woodworking
• Ken Wilber, The Integral Vision*
• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos
• The Ken Show: Putting the “Art” in Artificial Intelligence
• The Ken Show: Wicked Problems, Gun Violence
• Jeff Salzman, host of The Daily Evolver podcast
• Corey deVos, Executive Producer at IntegralLife.com
• Corey deVos’ intro to Integral video: Holons: The Building Blocks of the Universe (YouTube)
• Build Your Integral Life, free Integral Life course for beginners

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Corey deVos is the Executive Producer of Integral Life, an online media platform that focuses on the application of Integral Theory to personal and social transformation. Integral Theory is a comprehensive framework that seeks to integrate multiple perspectives, including the subjective, objective, inter-subjective, and inter-objective dimensions of human experience.

Corey deVos is also a writer, woodworker, musician, and teacher, who has been involved in the integral community for many years. He is a frequent host and guest on Integral Life’s podcast, where he engages in deep conversations with leading thinkers, artists, and practitioners in the integral world. He is known for his ability to articulate complex ideas in a clear and accessible manner, and for his commitment to fostering a more inclusive and integrated worldview. Corey is a devoted father and husband, and lives with his family in Longmont, Colorado.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 67 (Part 1 of 3) | Corey deVos is the heart and center of Integral Life, the organization that revolves around the work of Ken Wilber. Corey became passionate about Integral Theory at the age of 19, and in this lively conversation, he is clearly every bit as passionate about the actuality and the promise of Integral today. Here, Corey gives a terrifically lucid explanation of what the term Integral encompasses: a stage of psychological development, a description of Ken Wilber’s life’s work, and a comprehensive map that comes alive for people, guiding their way and making sense out of enormously complex issues. Corey also describes Integral as a gateway between two massive phases in human history—the “adolescent” phase of collective development now starting to fall behind us and an integrated phase quite possibly ahead.

Corey infuses the complex topics under discussion—the Integral metatheory, social issues that never seem to get resolved, human evolution itself—with optimism and enthusiasm, clarity and light, a testament to his own embodiment of Integral consciousness. At Integral Life, Corey co-hosts The Ken Show (with Ken Wilber), applies Integral to social issues like racism and justice in his podcast series, and excels at finding creative ways of translating the complexities of Integral Theory into easy-to-understand nuggets of information. This conversation is a brilliant, beautiful illumination of the Integral vision, covering how Integral has evolved and describing what it can do for our future. Recorded on November 10, 2022.

“The more we can make room for each other’s perspective…that’s how you go about solving the kind of political tribalization and polarization that is so prominent today.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Corey deVos, Executive Producer of Integral Life, the organization that revolves around Ken Wilber and his work (00:57)
• The ordinary and the extraordinary about Integral: Corey gives a superb explanation of just what is meant by the term “Integral” (02:41)
• Global challenges now are so huge, complicated, and urgent, they are forcing developmental movement—a new evolution—and necessitating the kind of comprehensive solutions that Integral offers (07:14)
• How the spiral of development is now at war with itself—like a global auto-immune disease, we are attacking ourself; Integral can supply the “medicine” (08:27)
• What distinguishes the Integral stage from all the previous stages and how does Integral fit into history? (11:08)
• The fragmentation of knowledge and how Integral is able to hold it all in a meaningful framework (14:46)
• Integral is also a call to transform (18:39)
• Every new stage coming into being involves a revolution; Integral’s revolution is from the inside out rather than the outside in, and it demands we do our inner work (19:53)
• The problem with reductionism and how Integral holds our basic polarities: interior/exterior, subjective/objective, individual/collective, offering a way out of our conflicts (22:34)
• How can people start to get involved with the Integral project? (27:29)
• Corey’s catastrophic first spiritual experience and love at first read of Ken Wilber’s A Brief History of Everything (30:38) 

• Corey deVos, Executive Producer at IntegralLife.com
• Corey deVos’ intro to Integral video: Holons: The Building Blocks of the Universe (YouTube)
• What’s the Future Integral conference in Sedona, hosted by Transformation Teaching (November 2022)
• Ken Wilber, Integral Theory, and Ken Wilber’s books*
• Everybody is right, YouTube video with Ken Wilber
• What Are the Stages of Development? (Integral Life)
• Build Your Integral Life, free Integral Life course for beginners
• Ken Wilber, Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality: The Spirit of Evolution*
• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos
• Abraham Maslow, American psychologist, creator of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs
• Clare Graves, adult developmental stages psychologist foundational to Spiral Dynamics
• Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything*
• Marcia Walters (Ken’s ex-wife) & musician Stuart Davis
• Corey’s website, Vision Logix Woodworking

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Corey deVos is the Executive Producer of Integral Life, an online media platform that focuses on the application of Integral Theory to personal and social transformation. Integral Theory is a comprehensive framework that seeks to integrate multiple perspectives, including the subjective, objective, inter-subjective, and inter-objective dimensions of human experience.

Corey deVos is also a writer, woodworker, musician, and teacher, who has been involved in the integral community for many years. He is a frequent host and guest on Integral Life’s podcast, where he engages in deep conversations with leading thinkers, artists, and practitioners in the integral world. He is known for his ability to articulate complex ideas in a clear and accessible manner, and for his commitment to fostering a more inclusive and integrated worldview. Corey is a devoted father and husband, and lives with his family in Longmont, Colorado.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 66 | Ukrainian psychologist Kateryna Yasko and integral leadership development expert Vytautas Bučiūnas share their first-hand experiences of the war in Kyiv now, one year after the invasion by Russia, as well as their penetrating perspectives on Russian imperialism (“Russia needs to lose this war so they can reinvent themselves”), on why there is comparably less PTSD among Ukrainian soldiers, and the implications for the world if Russia were to win or if it were to disintegrate. They acknowledge the relatively recent “awakening of Europe” to the fact that Putin won’t stop with Ukraine if he wins, and warn that “democracy needs to be fully ready for a possibly long-term battle for its values.”

Kateryna and Vytautas have witnessed how having an overriding mission and purpose has changed Ukrainians, and describe perceiving an unmistakable shift in energy upon crossing the border into Ukraine, where the heightened appreciation for life and the strength and solidarity of common purpose are palpable. What does the struggle for democracy, freedom, and dignity actually feel like? Find out on a planned pilgrimage to Ukraine this fall—both a spiritual journey of awakening and an opportunity to embody the experience of being invaded by Russia. This podcast is also a call for help—if you feel inspired to support the efforts in Ukraine, below are links to three trustworthy organizations working hard on Ukraine’s behalf. Recorded February 13, 2023.

“Democracies need to have guts. Who knows how many battles between democracy and autocracy lie ahead?”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Ukrainian psychologist Dr. Kateryna Yasko and leadership development expert Vytautus Bučiūnas (01:51) 
• Thank you to people who gave via iAwake in support of Ukraine (04:23)
• Update on what’s happening on the front lines thanks to the support of Western countries and especially the U.S. (06:01)
• President Zelensky, his speech to the United States Congress, and the qualities that make him a great wartime president (06:58)
• The metamodern cultural code and using force to protect ethical values (10:06)
• The awakening of Europe: democracy needs to be ready for a possibly long-term battle for its values (11:42)
• Ukraine has integrated the extremely important polarities: love and power, and the Battle of Antonov Airport (13:01)
• This is an existential war; there is no choice for Ukrainians (17:40)
• Things are getting a lot worse in Russia socially, economically, and among the elite (20:01)
• Russian imperialism needs to die for the benefit of all, including Russians (21:09)
• Because the defensive war in Ukraine is a just war, levels of PTSD among soldiers are much less (25:04)
• There are more than 100 small nations under Russian control who seek autonomy, independence, dignity, and respect (25:55)
• What will happen if/when Russia disintegrates? (26:34)
• Every country has its Nazis (30:25)
• The spirit in Kyiv now: solidarity, purpose, meaning & an extraordinary appreciation of life (32:30)
• You are invited on a pilgrimage to Ukraine in Oct 2023 to experience the vital spirit of the struggle for democracy firsthand (37:33)
• Co-host John Dupuy’s riveting song: Ukraine! (45:59)
• How to get involved and support Ukraine (see links below) (51:39)
• A call to be with Ukraine in spirit (52:57)
• In gratitude for the support of the United States and a heads up to Americans: the outcome of this war will affect each and every one of us (54:09)

• Servant of the People, political satire TV series created by Volodymyr Zelenskyy, in which he stars as a teacher unexpectedly elected President of Ukraine (before his real life election as President of Ukraine)
• Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, There is a time for everything
• Battle of Antonov Airport, February 24-25, 2022
• 1420, street interviews with Russians & Belarusians by Daniil Orain on YouTube
• The Emerge community is premised on the hypothesis that the future will be either a discrete phrase-shift towards further entropy and collapse, or the emergence of a higher-order system that is more complex and elegant than current global system dynamics. The question is how we get there.
• John Dupuy’s Ukraine! song on YouTube
• The Moral Imperative to Help Ukraine: Integral Perspectives on the War, Its Global Implications, and the Role of Warrior Consciousness, Deep Transformation podcast with Kateryna Yasko, Vytautas Bučiūnas, and Bence Gánti, recorded April 15, 2022
• Ukrainian Integral Perspectives on the Ongoing Invasion of Ukraine, Deep Transformation podcast with Kateryna Yasko & Vytautas Bučiūnas recorded March 5, 2022

•  An astute, in-depth profile of Vladimir Putin, with Russian-born American journalist Julia Ioffe: Putin and the Presidents: Julia Ioffe (interview) | FRONTLINE
• Timothy Snyder, expert on the modern history of Central and Eastern Europe and history professor at Yale, on Why the world needs Ukrainian victory 
• Timothy Snyder on Nuclear war! Why it isn’t happening

• United24, the official fundraising platform of Ukraine, initiated by President Zelenskyy, founded to protect, save, and rebuild Ukraine: https://u24.gov.ua/
• The Foundation for Competent Assistance to the Army, “Come Back Alive,” has launched a fundraiser to purchase equipment that will help the Ukrainian military defeat the occupiers in cyberspace: https://savelife.in.ua/en/
• Serhiy Prytula’s Foundation is a charitable organization with a military headquarters focused on providing the Ukrainian army with means of communication, optical devices, drones, UAVs, transport, and means of tactical medicine for the military, and a humanitarian headquarters, providing assistance to civilians in the occupied territories and within a radius of 70 kilometers from the front line, including the “NEST” project, with the mission of bringing life back to de-occupied towns and villages by providing people with free mobile homes on their land: https://prytulafoundation.org/en

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Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is an organizational psychologist, a trainer for the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution, and co-founder of the consulting company U-Integral. Her academic background is in the area of international relations and law (MSc), business (MBA), and psychology (MSc). She bases her programs on the principles of Ken Wilber’s Integral approach and Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication, and is certified in Spiral Dynamics Integral and in Susanne Cook-Greuter’s Maturity Assessment Profile. Kateryna is also head of the public association “International Institute for Integral Development” and a founder of the educational initiative EMPATIA.PRO, specializing in bringing holistic approaches into educational leadership and learning cultures. 

Vytautas Bučiūnas (Lithuania–Ukraine) is a co-founder and managing partner of U-Integral, an integral leadership development company. Vytautas also has vast experience as a top manager in the banking sector including working as the Head of Resident Office, Senior Banker, Associate Director at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (Russia, Ukraine). Vytautas’ professional profile includes building organizational units from scratch, carrying out large-scale transformations, and managing crises. Vytautas is a certified Integral Master Coach™ (Integral Coaching Canada), an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC)™, and the only business consultant in Ukraine certified in Leadership Maturity Framework – Maturity Assessment for Professionals (LMF-MAP) and Global Leadership Profile (GLP). Vytautas explores the development of human consciousness and complex social systemsfrom a holistic perspective. He considers the growth of a critical mass of mature leaders with systemic thinking and transformational capabilities to be the key to society’s healthy development.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell