Design Better

This interview was recorded live on May 1st for UserTesting’s ThiS Connect City Tour. Interested in joining us for our next live show? We’re joining an incredible lineup at #THiSConnect in NYC (including former Design Better guest Seth Godin), where we’ll talk about customer experience, innovation, and the real impact of AI.

📍 Catch us in New York on May 29th.

Let’s connect, share ideas, and shape what’s next!

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Amy Lokey has led design and product teams at LinkedIn, Google, and ServiceNow, where she is currently the Chief Experience Officer.

At ServiceNow, Amy’s team is helping shape how AI transforms our work—creating smart systems that can predict what we need, adapt on the fly, and make it easier to work with complex systems and connect with colleagues.

We’re excited to talk with her about how her team approaches designing for enterprise-level AI applications, including specific applications for agents—and how they can help you in your day-to-day work.

Amy joins us today for a special live episode recorded on stage in San Francisco, California, at the UserTesting THiS Connect City Tour.

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Bio

Amy Lokey leads Product and Customer Experience at ServiceNow, overseeing design, research, content, and more across the platform and products, with a mission to create experiences people love. She’s focused on shaping intelligent, AI-driven interfaces that adapt to how people want to work. Previously, she led UX for G Suite at Google and for LinkedIn’s consumer and enterprise products. With a background in large-scale digital design, her strengths lie in user-centered strategy and organizational leadership.

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Hi everyone!

We recently surveyed our audience and learned that many of you would like to see more video. So, we’re kicking off a new run of video episodes, beginning with our interview featuring John Cleese—actor, writer, comedian, and author of Creativity: A Short and Cheerful Guide.

You can watch the interview on our Substack, or on Youtube. Enjoy!

Original intro

The Ministry of Silly Walks. The Cheese Shop. French Taunting. If you haven’t seen any of these Monty Python sketches before, do us a favor and go watch one or two of them. You’ll discover—or re-discover—why our guest for this episode is a creative comic legend. 

John Cleese starred in and co-wrote the award-winning series Fawlty Towers, was nominated for an Academy Award for the screenplay of A Fish Called Wanda, and even has a species of lemur named after him (Cleese’s wooly lemur, Avahi cleesei). He’s also an expert on the creative process, and so if you’re looking for a new framework to level-up your own workflow, his book Creativity: A Short and Cheerful Guide is a great resource.

We talk with John about his new book, and also about creative collaboration in the midst of friction, how to be comfortable with ambiguity, and creating boundaries of space and time to get in a creative mode. We also get to ask him a question that’s been bugging us ever since we first watched Monty Python and The Holy Grail.

These days, we can all use a little more laughter in our lives. We hope our interview with John sparks some joy, and leaves you with some new creative tools. Thanks for listening.

Bio

John Cleese is an English actor, comedian, writer, and film producer. He achieved success at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe and as a scriptwriter and performer on The Frost Report. In the late 1960s, he co-founded Monty Python, the comedy troupe responsible for the sketch show Monty Python's Flying Circus and the four Monty Python films, And Now for Something Completely Different, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Life of Brian, and The Meaning of Life.

In the mid-1970s, Cleese and his first wife, Connie Booth, co-wrote and starred in the British sitcom Fawlty Towers. Later, he co-starred with Kevin Kline, Jamie Lee Curtis, and former Python colleague Michael Palin in A Fish Called Wanda and Fierce Creatures. He also starred in Clockwise, and has appeared in many other films, including two James Bond films, two Harry Potter films, and the last three Shrek films. He is also the author of Creativity: A Short and Cheerful Guide.

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A special sponsored episode of the Design Better Podcast

It’s a tough job market out there right now for designers and other creative technologists. Many of us are wondering if there are other ways we might be able to use our skills, and some of us are considering an entrepreneurial path.

Our guest today has done just that. Marco Suarez has had an impressive career in design, but took an interesting turn into entrepreneurship. Marco started his career as a graphic designer, became an art director at Mailchimp (where I had the pleasure of working with him), was product designer at Etsy, and the design systems lead at InVision, where we both worked with him.

But in addition to design, Marco had another passion: coffee. In 2015 he started Methodical Coffee, in Greenville South Carolina. In 2019 Marco left his full time role in tech to focus on the business, and now Methodical has 3 cafes in Greenville, and ships coffee across the United States. We also partner with Methodical on our own Design Better Coffee (and as you’ll learn in this episode, we have a brand-new Design Better Tea).

We speak with Marco about the story of his transition from design to coffee entrepreneurship, how it felt to leave the world of tech, and how he applied his design skills to starting a business.

Marco Suarez is the co-founder and CEO of Methodical Coffee, a specialty coffee company based in Greenville, South Carolina. With a background in digital product design, Marco transitioned from a successful career in tech to building something tangible—spaces where people could gather and connect over great coffee. What began as a shared vision among friends evolved into a thriving business, with three cafes, a roasting operation, and a new headquarters dedicated to innovation and community.

Over the past decade, Marco has navigated the complex challenges of scaling a capital- and labor-intensive business, from hiring and HR hurdles to financial strategy. Drawing from 20 years of experience as a designer, he brings a rare blend of creative vision and business acumen to the role of founder. Passionate about creating exceptional customer experiences and sustainable business models, Marco continues to advocate for the powerful intersection of design and entrepreneurship.

Learn more about Methodical Coffee

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In school, art is often positioned in curricula as an enrichment subject, not a core skill like math or language arts. But those of us who pursue the arts instinctually recognize that there is something in creative expression that is foundational to the human experience.

Susan Magsamen, executive director of the International Arts + Mind Lab at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, has spent years studying the effect art has on our mind and body. Her research is surfacing profound health and longevity benefits created through poetry, music, painting, and other arts. Susan recently collaborated with Ivy Ross, Chief Design Officer for Consumer Devices at Google, to co-author a fascinating book called Your Brain on Art: How the Arts Transform Us.

We speak with Susan and Ivy about how they found their way into collaborating on the book, why we are “wired for art,” how practicing art can actually extend your lifespan significantly, and how they bring the ideas in their book into their work to reduce stress and help teams perform at their peak.

Ivy Ross

Ivy Ross is the Vice President of Hardware Design at Google, where she led the creation of the award-winning design language for Google’s hardware products. With a background spanning executive roles at Calvin Klein, Swatch, Coach, Mattel, and Gap, Ivy blends design, science, and psychology to drive innovation. Her work has earned over 240 design awards, and she has been recognized by Fast Company, Business Insider, and Surface magazine as a creative leader. A former jewelry designer with works in major museum collections, she is also a sought-after speaker and contributor to books on creativity, leadership, and design.

Susan Magsamen

Susan Magsamen is the founder and executive director of the International Arts + Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and co-director of the NeuroArts Blueprint with the Aspen Institute. With over four decades of work at the intersection of the arts and neuroscience, she has developed tools and programs to support health, learning, and social equity through aesthetic experiences. A published author and entrepreneur, Susan also founded Curiosityville and Curiosity Kits, and has advised numerous organizations across public health, education, and the arts.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Aarron and Eli are traveling with their families for Spring Break, so we’re bringing back one of our favorite episodes from 2023 with the band OK Go.

In the time since we recorded the interview, they’ve come out with a new album, and with several new music videos, including for the track Love, shot with no cuts…just “mirrors, robotics, and a whole lot of planning.” Enjoy!

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Not many bands hire Russian pilots to film a Zero-G video on their cosmonaut training plane, known as the “vomit comet”. But those are the kinds of extremes that OK Go will go to in the pursuit of creativity.

Tim Nordwind and Damian Kulash, the band’s founders, met at camp as pre-teens in search of a fellow creative nerd, and founded the band in 1998. Over the past 25 years, they’ve created 3 Grammy-nominated music videos, and won Best Music Video for Here It Goes Again.

From the perfectly timed explosions filmed in slow-motion for their song The One Moment, to the immensely elaborate Rube Goldberg contraption they created for This Too Shall Pass, OK Go is almost like a performance-art troupe that just happens to be a fantastic rock band.

In this episode on the creative process, we talk to Tim and Damian about how they come up with ideas, the macro and micro elements of their creativity, and achieving the impossible.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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As a kid in the 80’s, Eli fell in love with games on computers like the Apple II, Commodore 64, and later the Amiga and Macintosh. One of the very first games he played was called Karateka, which was inspiring for the realistic movements of its digital karate antagonists, even on a black-and-green Apple II monitor.

Our guest today, Jordan Mechner, created Karateka while an undergrad at Yale University in 1984, and it went on to be a commercial success. He followed it up with the game Prince of Persia (you’ll hear a clip from the soundtrack in the introduction, which Jordan’s father composed and which Jordan invented a way to transpose onto the Apple II’s tinny speakers before game soundtracks were widespread on the machine).

Jordan documented the creation of the game in a wonderful published version of his diaries called The Making of Prince of Persia, and we spoke with him about how he taught himself the skills to build successful video games in a pre-internet era, why he journaled about his work process (and what it taught him), and about his new graphic novel Replay, a memoir recounting his own family story of war, exile and new beginnings.

Jordan Mechner is an American author, game designer, comic book artist, and screenwriter, best known for creating the iconic video game Prince of Persia in 1989. He relaunched the series with Ubisoft in 2003 and wrote the original screenplay for the film adaptation produced by Disney in 2010, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time. This work is considered a timeless classic and has spawned a global transmedia franchise, with over 20 million games sold to date.

Since 2017, Jordan has been living in France, where he made his debut as a full author with his autobiographical graphic novel Replay. Among the albums he has written are Monte-Cristo (with Mario Alberti), Liberté! (with Étienne Le Roux and Loïc Chevallier), and Templiers (with LeUyen Pham and Alex Puvilland), which appeared on the New York Times bestsellers list. His latest works were first published in French, with English editions following in 2024.

Jordan's video games, such as Karateka (1984) and The Last Express (1997), are recognized for their cinematic storytelling and innovative use of rotoscoping. In 2017, he received the Pioneer Award from the International Game Developers Association.

Jordan also wrote and directed Chavez Ravine: A Los Angeles Story, an award-winning documentary broadcast on PBS. He has published his development journals, The Making of Karateka and The Making of Prince of Persia, as well as an adaptation of the Persian tales Samak the Ayyar. A passionate artist, he keeps a sketchbook journal, regularly sharing his thoughts and drawings, a testament to his love for art and storytelling.

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This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Design systems are the foundation of nearly every piece of software we use. No one has had a greater influence on the philosophy and tactics of building design systems than Brad Frost, author of Atomic Design. After helping countless companies craft design systems, Brad has come to realize that this topic is a nexus of collaboration and conflict.

In our conversation, Brad shared why he thinks design systems are an enduring topic in design teams, the power of design tokens, and how AI is reshaping this space. Plus, Brad filled us in on his new online course on design tokens.

As a special opportunity for Design Better listeners, use code “DESIGNBETTERISAWESOME” at checkout for 20% off Brad’s upcoming design tokens course:

Pre-order design tokens course

Brad Frost is a design system consultant, front-end developer, speaker, writer, musician, and artist located in beautiful Pittsburgh, PA. He helps teams establish and evolve design systems, establish more collaborative workflows, and create better software together. He is the author of the book Atomic Design, which introduces a methodology to create and maintain effective design systems. In addition to co-hosting the Style Guides Podcast, he has also helped create several tools and resources for web designers, including Pattern Lab, Styleguides.io, Style Guide Guide, This Is Responsive, Death to Bullshit, and more.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Aquatru: We’d like to think our tap water is clean and healthy, but for so many there are impurities and chemicals that can be detrimental to our health. We’re big fans of AquaTru, makers of reverse osmosis filtration systems for your countertop or under sink. Get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier at AquaTru.com with discount code DESIGNBETTER.

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Designing a good security experience is hard. Every time we run into one of those security captchas that requires you to “identify all the motorcycles” in the tiled images, we want to give up and surrender to our robot overlords…or throw our laptop out the window.

Our guest today, Heidi Trost, just published a book called Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems That Are Both Safe and Usable. In the book, Heidi aims to help people who are “tired of hearing things like ‘humans are the weakest link’ and instead want to focus on designing more secure, more resilient systems.”

In our conversation, we spoke with Heidi about the metrics we can use to measure the quality of the security experience, why the login/password recovery is so broken—even for companies that are good at UX design—and some ways to approach user testing for security.

Heidi Trost is a UX leader who helps cross-disciplinary teams improve the security user experience. With a background in UX research, Heidi does this by helping teams better understand the people they are designing for, as well as the security threats that may impact people and systems negatively. Heidi is also the host of the podcast, Human-Centered Security, where she interviews security experts and people who design for the security user experience.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Thuma: We’re the sort of people who can’t help but get lost in the details of creating a beautiful living space. A well designed home is a sanctuary for creative thinking. For those who revel in crafting a beautiful living space, Thuma offers modern furniture that transforms your home into a sanctuary for creative thinking.

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By Aarron Walter

The software industry is in a tough contraction phase. Teams are downsizing, and companies are prioritizing efficiency. It’s a stressful time for many.

But it’s also an opportunity—to reflect on your work, your skills, and the unique value you bring as a designer. What could you do to make yourself indispensable to your team?

In my career, I’ve worked with a number of truly irreplaceable designers, and they all share a common trait: they became more than just a designer. They bring additional skills in coding, research, or business that expand their value, make them better cross-team collaborators, and help them solve problems more effectively.

Irreplaceable designers thrive in the blurry space between disciplines. They adapt their language and perspective as they work across teams, earning respect from their peers.

These designers are rare—but they shouldn’t be. AI is making it easier for all of us to bridge the gap between disciplines. While there’s a lot of excitement about how AI can help designers improve their craft, the real opportunity lies in designers learning to build as well.

Continue reading this issue of The Brief on Substack

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Aarron’s friend Trenton Doyle Hancock did something remarkable when they were both in the graduate Painting and Drawing program at the Tyler School of Art in Philadelphia—he had work in the Whitney Biennial. It was a bit like winning an Oscar while in acting school, just not something that ever happens.

Most people are thrown by early success, but not Trenton. He pressed forward in his studio where he crafted epic stories in large scale paintings that later expanded into installations, sculptures, and performance art. His creative process is unique. Piles of collected objects, receipts, food wrappers, etc find their way into his work where their color, texture and attitude unfold as the fabric of Trenton’s universe of heroes, villains, and ancient mysteries.

We spoke with Trenton about his neurodivergent approach to the world, how collecting influences his visual sensibilities, and how chaos becomes precise order in his work. At the time of our recording, Trenton had a large show at the Jewish Museum in New York exploring intersecting themes in his work and that of Philip Guston.

For nearly two decades, Trenton Doyle Hancock has created a vivid, fantastical universe where autobiographical elements blend seamlessly with references to art history, comics, superheroes, and popular culture. Through paintings, drawings, and expansive installations, Hancock crafts complex narratives exploring themes of good versus evil, infused with personal symbolism and mythology. His work draws stylistically from artists like Hieronymus Bosch, Max Ernst, Henry Darger, Philip Guston, and R. Crumb, integrating text as both narrative driver and visual element. His distinctive storytelling has extended beyond gallery walls into performances, ballet collaborations such as Cult of Color: Call to Color with Ballet Austin, and murals at prominent public spaces including Dallas Cowboys Stadium and Seattle Art Museum’s Olympic Sculpture Park.

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This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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