“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.”

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00).

Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30).

Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00).

Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00).

Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“My life has often forced me to follow the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30).

Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00).

Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00).

Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30).

Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website.

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Authors, books, and agents mentioned:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Anne Howard

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Anne and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00).

Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00).

Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997.

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This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].