Is society too feminine or not feminine enough? Two conservative writers, Helen Andrews and Leah Libresco Sargeant, disagree on the answer. They join Ross Douthat to debate whether the feminization of institutions led to wokeism and a greater divide between men and women.

• 01:33 “Wokeness is distinctively feminine.”
• 06:17 - Has liberal feminism failed women?
• 16:26 - The feminization of institutions
• 20:47 - Defining feminine and masculine vices
• 24:09 - Toxic femininity 
• 39:09 - Defeminization in the workplace

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

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