Meagan welcomes Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins, a board-certified OB/GYN, to discuss everything related to pregnancy, childbirth, and the VBAC experience.

With over 23 years of experience and more than 1,000 deliveries, Dr. Rankins shares her insights on common questions and concerns from expectant mothers. From the importance of mindset during labor to understanding the implications of the word “allow” in provider-patient relationships, this episode is packed with valuable information. Don't miss out on Dr. Rankins' tips for a calm and confident birth, and learn how to advocate for yourself in the birthing process!

Dr. Nicole Rankins' Website

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength, It's Meagan, and I am so excited to be joining you today with our friend, Nicole Calloway Rankins. Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins is incredible. We've been following her for a long time and have collaborated with her in the past and are so excited to be having her on the podcast today. Dr. Rankins is a board-certified practicing OB/GYN, wife, mom and podcast host here to help you get calm, confident, and empower you to have a beautiful birth you deserve. 

She was born into a family of educators, and she felt a pull to medical school the day she looked in the mirror and saw a vision of herself in a white coat. And get this, it all happened while she was studying to be an engineer. She says, "I know that sounds crazy, but that vision has led me to exactly where I am supposed to be today- serving pregnant women." She's delivered more than 1,000 babies and has de-mystified childbirth for thousands more through her 5-star rated All About Pregnancy and Birth Podcast which she's going be talking about a little bit more today. I'm so excited for her. She has over 2 million downloads and her online birth plan and childbirth education classes. 

You guys, she is really changing so much about the birth world. She's incredible. You're going to hear it today. I love chatting with her. You can find her at drnicolrankins.com and of course, we'll have all of her other podcasts and Instagram and all that in the show notes. So get ready, we're excited. 

We're going to be talking a little bit more about common questions for an OB/GYN, but then we're also going to be diving into questions from you personally. I reached out on Instagram and said, "Hey, what are your questions for this doctor?" She is so excited to answer them, and she did. We went through every single question that was asked on our Instagram community. I'm so excited. I'm going to get to the intro, and then we are going to start with Dr. Rankins. 

You guys, Dr. Rankins is back with us today and I'm so excited. Funny enough, I keep saying that you're back, but you've never done the podcast with us.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: I don't think so. Yeah, I think we did a class.

m: We did a class which was phenomenal and everyone ranted and raved about it. So we're back together ,but we have you for the first time on the podcast. So welcome. 

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Meagan: We just adore you and I love getting your opinion on things. I think from doulas, from midwives to OBs, we all have different opinions and experiences, and if there's anyone that has hands-on experience, it is you and a midwife, like someone who is physically handling.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yep. I've done this a couple thousand times. Yes.

Meagan: Versus my 300 and something verse.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Don't discount it. That's very excellent.

Meagan: It's still super great, but when it comes to thousands and an understanding on an even deeper level, it's just so fun and it's a compliment to the podcast to have your expertise.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I've been at this 23 years, so it's a long time.

Meagan: And still going. It's still going.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Still going. Yes.

Meagan: And okay, tell me we can edit this if you want, but you have a new podcast coming out. I do know it's not going to be by the time this airs. It's not going to be out just yet. But can you tell us a little bit more about it and where people can find this?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. So it's still going to be in the same feed. So if you subscribe to the old podcast, it's just going to change, keep the same feed, but it's going to have a new name and a bit of a new focus still related to pregnancy and birth, but it's just a bit tighter. I want to say the name so bad, but I'm not going to.

Meagan: Okay. Don't let it out. We will find out it is released.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.

Meagan: Tell them where to follow right now.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right now? Yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, even though I'm taking a Little break now, you'll get it there. But the podcast is called All About Pregnancy and Birth. Go ahead and subscribe, and you can be the first one to know when the first episodes come out. I just have lots of new ways to present information about pregnancy and birth and frameworks and things. 

Okay, I'll give a little hint. One of the first things I'm talking about is one thing that's so important to pregnancy and your birth experience is your mindset. So one of the things I created is this MAMA mindset framework. MAMA stands for meditation, affirmations, move your body, attitude of gratitudes. I have practices, exercises, and things we're going to talk about. That's just one little, tiny sliver of the things that I've been working on and writing, so it's just good, great stuff.

Meagan: Yay. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. That is even more applied with just birth in general. But VBAC, I feel like mindset attitude, and all these things that you were just saying, is so important because even though we're just moms going and having babies, we have some extra things that some extra barriers that sometimes we have to either break through or we run into.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a calm mind creates a confident birth. So when you have that calm mind, that is the first step to helping you create a confident birth experience. So mindset is really important.

Meagan: Yeah, it really is. Well, I'm excited to chat with you today, and I'm excited to listen to that sometime here in the near future and listen to more of what you are bringing to the table. Okay, so one of the questions that I would like to go over is the word "allow".

What does the word "allow" mean? How does someone navigate something that maybe doesn't feel right for them? And on both sides-- Dr. Fox and I have talked about how sometimes it's not right for the provider. You're not the right patient for that provider because what you want is not comfortable with the provider and vice versa.

But we often hear or actually more see it on The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. There are comments of, "My doctor said they will allow" or "My midwife said they'll allow me to." If so when you are saying that or maybe have you said that, what does that mean?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I don't say that word.

Meagan: Okay.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's a word that should not be in the discussion about birth because allow implies a hierarchal relationship where I get to make the decisions about what does or does not happen in someone's pregnancy, birth, labor, body, and that is not true. You as the person giving birth are the one who ultimately makes the decisions, not your doctor or your midwife. We can't really allow anything. We're not your parents. Do you know what I mean? So "allow" shouldn't be part of the conversation.

 It's a left overturn from just a general patriarchal foundation of OB/GYN, particularly when men took over into the specialty and banished midwives is how that language came about is that we need to tell folks and we need to control. So it really shouldn't be the case, but it still hangs around. Words matter, and it's important. 

Even though people don't necessarily mean it with any sort of ill-intent or that they mean that they're trying to control you, and inherently sort of subconsciously implies that. So I strongly dislike the word "allow".

Meagan: Yeah, I am with you too. As someone who has had that word happen to me, it made me feel like I had to do something to meet their standard quota to get that allowance.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.

Meagan: That just didn't feel great.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Yeah.

Meagan: So if someone is saying that, are there any tips of advice that you would give?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I mean, first off, if you hear it, that's a little notch of a red flag potentially that it's not going to be a shared decision-making process because really, it should be that my role is to give you information and share my expertise with you to help you come up with the best decision for yourself. 

That looks like various things for different people. Some people want tons of information. They want to think about it and then talk about it. Some people are like, "Just tell me what to do," which if that's what you want me to do, then I can do that too. So if you hear "allowed", then it's concerning that there may not be that shared decision-making. So that's a little bit of a red flag to know.

But then to open it up for discussion, it kind of depends on what the situation is. So is it we don't allow you to eat or drink during labor or we don't allow TOLAC? Then the next question is really, why? Especially if it's something that's important for you, why? If you want to use the language back, you can even use it back. "But why is that not allowed? Why is that the case?" And then kind of take the discussion from there.

Meagan: Yeah. I think asking the question just in general, "Why?" or "Okay, I hear you. Can you explain to me?"

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.

Meagan: It really helps there be a discussion like you were saying. I feel like when it comes to birth, like you're saying, I'm not your parent, but it needs to be collaborative effort here. We're trusting you to help us with this really amazing event in our life, but at the same time, we have to have equal trust from you. It's this collaboration of like, let's talk about what we want this to look like.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Definitely, tust and collaboration are key in order to have a great birth experience. And ideally, you want to try to work on that foundation during your prenatal appointments so that by the time you get to the hospital, you know that you're going to have that relationship actually, regardless of what doctors there or nurses say. You create this environment of trust and collaboration. 

So when you ask the question why, don't necessarily start off-- and this is part of the psychology of human behavior. You don't necessarily have to start off with, "Well, why?" attitude because advocacy is not about creating conflict or creating chaos. Advocacy is really about creating that collaboration and creating that trust. It's the end result. So start from a place of trying to connect. Ask, learn information, and then kind of go from there.

Meagan: Yeah. Love that. Well, thank you. Okay. 

Fetal monitoring. I know this is actually going to be a question down the line, or maybe it's a little different, but fetal monitoring with VBAC in hospitals is typically required. Can we talk about the evidence on that of why? Why? Again, here's the question, why? Why is that done? Dive in deeper. We talk about that in our course. But I think it's so great to talk directly to an OB/GYN like you to understand your point of view.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. The reason that's the case is that one of the first signs of uterine rupture is going to be a change in the fetal heart rate. So that's why we always want to see the fetal heart rate because it's going to be the first indication that there's potentially an issue. So it's really that simple. It may even be potentially before you start having pain. Some people may or may not have bleeding, but fetal heart rate changes and pain are going to be the things that will clue us in and we don't want to miss that if it happens.

Meagan: Yeah, so when a fetal heart changes, we know, through labor-- this is a spin-off of the question. We know babies' heart rates fluctuate up and down. Sometimes they might have a compression in the cord that causes the heart rate to go really down during the uterine contraction and that goes up, but it goes really down. It's like, oh, that's low, and then it goes right back up to its baseline. So what is a concerning fetal trace in this scenario?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right, yeah. So this is the part where I have to say, this is the reason we do four years of OB/GYN residency, why we have to get take fetal heart rate monitoring training every couple of years to stay up on it. This isn't something that can be had in a subtle conversation because it's not just what you see in the moment, it's what you see in the moment. The things we look for in general are a baseline of the heart rate between 110 and 150, 160, roughly. We look for things called accelerations, decelerations, and the variability, which is like the squiggliness of it, that's the big picture. 

But when we look at it, it's like, okay. We assess it, and then we try to do some things to improve the heart rate. We look at how the heart rate looks over time. Has it gotten worse over time? If we do some things to get it better, then that's considered good. So we can't really say if you see this specific snapshot of a fetal heart rate, then that's going to be the thing that triggers things. It really just depends.

Meagan: Makes total sense.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: And it can also be contractions because sometimes if you're having too many contractions back to back and there's no time to get a break, so the baby's like, "Can I just have a minute to breathe in between these contractions, please?" So maybe we need to slow down the contractions. So really, it's a lot of things that go into it, and that's where our expertise comes in.

Meagan: Yeah, it's a big math equation in a lot of ways when it comes to tracings and things like that. Okay.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: I do want to say that a lot of times people think monitoring equals no movement. But more and more, hospitals these days have wireless monitoring so you're able to move. That's definitely a question you want to ask ahead of time if wireless monitoring options are available so that you're able to move around.

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Because they've got, at least I don't know if it's what it's called there, but we call it the Monica.

It's just that little sandpaper on your belly and that's kind of nice. Sandpaper sounds harsh. It's a light little scrub so it gets the oils off your skin. So that's a really nice thing.

Awesome. Okay. And then scar thickness. This is a really big one, and we've talked a little bit about it with Dr. Fox in the past. But scar thickness and double versus single stitch closure is a very, very common question that we are getting wondering about the evidence that shows that someone maybe shouldn't TOLAC or the evidence on thinner scars because it seems like it's becoming a new standard. It's coming in with the VBAC calculator. That is what we're seeing. It's like we're doing the VBAC calculator and we're measuring the scar and those kind of two things are becoming routine. And then of course, once we review OP reports. Double versus single.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. So the double versus single doesn't make a difference. So whether you had a double layer closure or a single layer closure, you're still a candidate for a VBAC. So that one is pretty easy. I don't even look at OP notes for double versus single layer. It really just needs to be a low transverse incision on the low part of the uterus. So that's that. 

As far as the scar thickness, the rationale behind that is that when the uterus ruptures, it literally just thins out. Thins out and thins out until it ruptures open generally. So when we're measuring this scar thickness, the physiology of it makes sense that if it's really thin and then you start to put the pressure of contractions on it, there may be a higher chance of it rupturing. 

Now, is there hard data that if it's this amount that is definitely going to rupture or you should or shouldn't TOLAC? Not necessarily. In our area, it's not routinely measured or talked about. It's not anything that we discuss, so it's not a routine part of practice, but that's the thought behind it. 

And typically it may come up if it's noticed, or if it's very noticeable. If the ultrasound, the maternal fetal medicine specialist or whoever does the ultrasound says, "This uterine scar, where it is, is really, really thin," and then it may come up. But in general, I don't see that come up very often.

Meagan: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good to know. Yeah, it just seems. Yeah. Like, oh my goodness. Are you hearing that ding?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: No.

Meagan: Okay, good. I hope you're not hearing it. On my end, my computer keeps dinging, but it's on mute, so I'm not really sure what's going on. I'm having all the technical issues today.

Anyway, that's really, really good to know though, because it is something that so many people are hyper-focusing on. Sometimes I think there are other things to hyper-focus on like our nutrition and finding that supportive provider and getting the education and really understanding the choice that we're making when we VBAC.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, definitely. I'm not focusing on it, so I don't think you should focus on it.

Meagan:Yes, yes. But it is. I think it is probably hard for these people when they go to these visits. They're so excited. They want to have a TOLAC or a VBAC, and then they're like, "Oh well, we have to do these things first to see if you qualify."

Dr. Nicole Rankins: And scar thickness is just not part of ACOG's recommendation. It's not part of what determines whether or not you can have VBAC.

Meagan: I know. It shouldn't be anyway. Yes, yes, yes. But for some reason, we're still seeing it. So I think it's good to know that you guys, if you're having that, maybe just think twice about it.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Or get a second opinion.

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say, get a second opinion.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.

Meagan: Okay. So our community asked questions. I went on and said that we were going to have you on. And they were so excited and kind of just asked all of the questions. So one of the questions was, if you don't get an epidural for a VBAC and you need a C-section, will you have to be put fully out, so under general anesthesia?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, no. Not necessarily, and most likely not. Generally, as long as it's not an emergency, there's time to do a spinal. The difference between an epidural and spinal, the epidural is a catheter that stays in place and medicine continually gets fed through the catheter where a spinal is a one-shot dose of medicine that lasts for two to three hours. So as long as there's time and you can sit up for the spinal or they can lay you on your side for the spinal, then they can do the spinal for the C-section, and you don't have to do general. General anesthesia is only reserved for if it's truly an emergency and there's not enough time to do the spinal.

Meagan: Right. And for this is another, I'm adding this. But epidural versus spinal longevity of effectiveness meaning like you're numb enough for them to perform the surgery.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. The spinal's going wear off.

Meagan: Yeah. Quickly, but it's going to go on quicker. Right or no? Or deeper?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, it's a denser numbing than what you get with an epidural. When you get an epidural before, if you have an epidural and then you go to a C-section, then you just get a bigger dose of medicine that kind of mimics what you get through the spinal. So the thing about the spinal is that it's meant to cover a surgery, so it's going to be a larger dose of medicine, so you're going to be more numb because we don't actually want you to be completely numb during labor. The spinal is really just to make sure you're nice and is numb and don't feel the surgery.

Meagan: And how long does it take to kick in to be numb enough? Like 20 minutes? 30?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, yeah. I would say it's actually pretty quickly. So yes, you're right. It can kick in a little bit faster than epidural because it's a lot more medicine. So typically, I would say within 5-10 minutes, you're going to start feeling numbness pretty quickly. But by the time we've laid you down, washed your belly, put in the catheter, done those things, then you're numb.

Meagan: Yeah. So in that non-emergency situation, you're going to have plenty of time to be numb and not have to be put under general anesthesia. In an emergent situation, we have minutes. We have minutes to work with. How many minutes if we're having fetal distress? 

And obviously, it could vary for a lot of patients, I'm sure, but major fetal distress emergent like true emergent under general anesthesia. What are we looking at a timeframe before we get baby out before we're really concerned?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. I mean so if it's true, like an emergency, because a lot of people say they had an emergency C-section. It's actually not emergency. 

Meagan: Right. Baby was born two hours later. 

D; Yeah, or even 30 minutes later. So emergency is going to be like we're ripping the cords out of the wall. We're running down the hall to the operating room. When we get in the operating room, the heart rate is still in the 60s. So we want baby out in five minutes.

Meagan: Okay.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: We want baby out as quickly as possible, and the quickest way to get a baby out is general anesthesia and then go, if you don't already have a spinal.

Meagan: Right. Perfect. That's also another common question of like, well, how long do I have if I don't have that? Because that's a big deciding factor for people with not wanting to go unmedicated or wanting to go to medicated but not wanting to be in an emergent situation. Those emergent situations, they happen. We can't sugarcoat it. They happen, but they are more rare. 

I love that you pointed that out. A lot of people say this was an emergent situation and we hear, well, then they went out and they came back, and 25-30+ minutes later, they had a baby.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: That's not an emergency. As a matter of fact, emergency C-sections are fairly rare. Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I've had to run somebody down the hall for a C-section.

Meagan: And I call those crash like crash sections. Everybody crashes and goes. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Mhmm. Mhmm. Things are moving so quickly.

Meagan: Okay. So someone says, do I need an OB for a VBAC? I have lost all trusts in nurses and doctors after being forced into a C-section which breaks my heart that this question is a thing. I see it all the time. People have been "wronged" or bullied, and it shouldn't be that way. 

Dr. Nicole Rankins: It should not.

Meagan: Sometimes it happens for whatever reason. But yeah, like do you have to have an OB? Obviously, we know the answer is no.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: No, you can have a midwife. For sure.

Meagan: But maybe I want to spin it to more of a positive. If we have an OB, how can we better establish a relationship with them so we're not in a situation in the end feeling pressured or bullied?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. And actually I want you to even back it up even further, and this is for anybody having a baby. What you want, you don't specifically want a midwife. You don't specifically want an OB. What you want is someone who's going to listen to you, respect your wishes and really center you in your birth experience. So yes, midwives are great at that, but sometimes midwives can be tricky too. 

The way that the reason I said that is because I know people who were like, "I had a midwife and I thought it was going to be great," and it wasn't. And they were hanging too much weight on that midwife hat.

Meagan: The midwife word, yeah.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, yes. So you really need to start with is this person listening to me and respecting me? So whether that's midwife or OB, okay?

Meagan: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: So take that away first. And then if you have an OB, again because the midwife is also going to work with an OB, I'm assuming you're doing in the hospital, you want someone who is not just like, "Oh, if you go into labor, you can have a VBAC. I mean, I guess that's okay." Or you want somebody who's really actually supportive of it. I think you've used this language before, not just tolerant of VBAC that they actually you and don't just tolerate the possibility.

Meagan: Yeah, I have kind of been thinking about that. Like we as doulas. It's like, oh, I want someone to advocate for me. That big word "advocate", and what does that look like? But in a lot of ways, I think that's what I want a supportive provider to do is advocate for me. Like I understand, validate me. I understand this is what you want, and we're going to do everything we can in our power to do this. If there's something along the way that is saying maybe we shouldn't, I will have that discussion with you. I will not just tell you what you have to do. 

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Exactly. 

Meagan: Again, it goes back to that conversation we were having in the beginning of that collaborative relationship. If that is there, I think you set yourself up for better expectations no matter who it is with an OB or a midwife.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Meagan: Nurses can be tricky. We love our nurses. They're incredible, but sometimes they have opinions, and sometimes they come in and they put it on us.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Here's the thing that people don't realize. You can ask for a new nurse.

Meagan: You can.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes you can. You can absolutely. There's always a charge nurse who's in charge of making patient assignments. You can ask to speak to the charge nurse, and you can get a new nurse. Don't feel bad or guilty or like you're hurting anybody's feelings. People will be fine. I promise you. They'll go home, and they'll keep going on about their lives if you ask for a new nurse. So I know it can be challenging, especially sometimes for women to speak up about things, and you're worried about hurting people's feelings and things like that, but you can always ask for a new nurse.

Meagan: Absolutely. This is not related to birth, but I signed up with a personal trainer at my gym, and I was assigned to this amazing person, and she was great, but I realized a couple weeks into it that maybe we weren't the best fit for one another. I hesitated for two more weeks to say, "Hey, can I switch?" And now that I've switched, oh my gosh, it's the best decision I made, and 

I get to see her at the gym all the time. I went up to her and was like, "I love you. Thank you so much. This has been great, but this is what I'm doing." It was a wonderful breakup. You don't even have to break up with someone like that, though. You really don't. It doesn't have to be. I was so nervous, but this is your space. This is your birth. This is your experience. You have to protect it and keep it what you need. If someone's not jiving that or that nurse specifically, you can say, "Hey, thank you so much for your services, but I would like to switch." It's okay.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Definitely, Absolutely.

Meagan: And you don't want to go back at the end of the day and be like, oh, I had this nurse, and it was the worst seven hours. That's not positive. We want to look at our birth with a positive view, not a negative view.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. And your nurse is going to be there way more than your doctor. Way more. You definitely want to be in sync with your nurse.

Meagan: Yeah. And something else, too. I tell our clients all the time, our doula clients, like, "Hey, upon arrival, if we're not there, say, 'Hey, I would really love a nurse that fits in line with blah, blah, blah.'"

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Exactly.

Meagan: And a lot of times, they assign it right then, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, you guys are amazing. Thank you."

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, exactly.

Meagan: Okay, so next question. What should I consider if my goal would be to have a home birth? So from a hospital OB/GYN, where do you fit in that? What would you suggest? I know a lot of JOBs are like, "Don't go to home."

D So yeah, so I personally I would TOLAC at home makes me nervous, but that's because I've seen uterine ruptures before and how quickly things can change. So but however, like in Canada, I think their specialty society guidelines support doing a TOLAC at home after one C-section. So it's not that it's unheard of, but I will say it makes me nervous. 

Now, if you do want to do it at home, then absolutely have someone who is experienced. This is not the time to have like a brand new midwife. I think you want to have somebody who has some experience in particular with looking for any signs and symptoms of when to go to the hospital. We also need a clear plan for hospital transfer and ideally, that midwife should have a relationship with the hospital so that she feels comfortable going to the hospital in a timely fashion. 

One of the things that I've seen unfortunately happened during my career with home births that have not turned out optimally is that people are afraid to go to the hospital, so they stay at home too often, and then by the time they get to the hospital it's a train wreck. That's not good for anybody involved. So you want it to be a situation where the midwife feels comfortable going to the hospital in a timely fashion. 

For example, I work with home birth me bias in my community. I have gone out to the birth centers and things and say, "Hey, if you want to transfer somebody, just let us know. Call."

Meagan: I love that you've done that.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, it's, it's important. So call. Send the records. We have a really smooth process. Nobody bats an eye now when there's a transfer from home birth. 

Meagan: Oh good.

D; So you really want to have those two things in place. A skilled midwife and a good backup plan, preferably with the relationship to the hospital.

Meagan: I love that. Such great advice. That's awesome that you're doing that for your community. I just had an interview the other day with a VBAC mom who's toying with the idea, not sure where to go. She asked me and I was like, "Well, you could do dual care. You could establish a relationship with a provider. You can ask your provider out-of-hospital of choice if they do have that relationship," because I do think it is important because sometimes even the midwife is like, "I don't know where to go," so I love that you've done that and gone into the birth centers there. 

Okay. So we just talked about fetal monitoring, but one of the question was, is intermittent monitoring safe with VBAC just in general?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. It hasn't really been studied very much, and it's not going to be. That's the thing. It's just not something that anybody's going to sign up for and say, "Hey, you get monitoring. You don't get monitoring," and see what happens in assess that situation for VBAC. So I can't answer that question based on data. I will just say that in general, we want to do continuous monitoring.

Meagan: Right. That makes sense. Okay, so small lumps under my C-section scar. What could that be? Would/could it impact the outcome of my VBAC?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's probably scar tissue.

Meagan: That's what I thought when I saw that question come in. I think that dials into like going and chatting with someone like askjanette or a pelvic floor PT or someone who can help massage that scar tissue because anytime we have a cut whether it be from a C-section or you fell and scraped your knee and cut your knee open on a rock or a twig, our body will develop scar tissue, and sometimes it clumps. Sometimes it gets that.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's probably just scar tissue. And no, it should not impact your ability to have a VBAC.

Meagan: Have you ever seen this within your TOLAC world, your VBAC world where sometimes we've got thicker scar tissue and sometimes there's separation within the scar tissue internally as babies coming down and making their way through or uterus is contracting? And so sometimes it can be like, oh my gosh, I've got this burning sensation in my scar which we hear, and it's like, that's concerning because we know that sometimes uterine rupture can be that feeling of burning sensation or pain, and usually that pain doesn't go away and just keeps improving. But have you ever seen that with someone and where they're like, "Oh, I've got this burning sensation," and could it be scar tissue stretching maybe?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Definitely, sometimes you have to be careful when you hear people say they're Having pain in their abdomen. Could it be scar tissue stretching? Possibly. That's definitely a possibility.

Meagan: It's something that's crossed my mind, over all the years, especially as baby's coming down and putting that extra pressure there.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.

Meagan: Okay. So again, yeah, this is something that we asked talked about earlier. So to what extent are decels considered normal in early and late labor? 

Dr. Nicole Rankins: We don't categorize decels based on the stage of labor necessarily. It's based on how they look, and again, over the course of how the tracing looks. Now sometimes right at the end, we're going to tolerate during pushing some decels, because you're pushing and squeezing, so there's going to be decels. So we may tolerate them more towards the end, but other than that, it really just depends.

Meagan: Okay, that makes sense. I feel like sometimes as a doula, we're getting into that transition, almost pushing stage and they come in and they're like, "Hey, so we're wondering if maybe you're ready to push here soon or something's going on based off of some decels." Not that they were concerning, but they're seeing them. But really decels in general, overall, you're going to look at a whole versus one contraction or two contractions.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yep.

Meagan: Okay. PROM. So premature rupture of membranes and pre-e with VBAC it says is it still safe? I will answer from my own experience.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, absolutely.

Meagan: Yeah, but yeah, time too, with PROM So if we're not having labor begin or we're maybe contracting, like what's handled in that situation, especially knowing that in some hospitals around the world and in the US don't allow Pitocin?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right, yeah.

Meagan: Even though that's also not necessarily a contraindication.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Correct. So with PROM, so water breaking before labor starts, it's not as common, but it does happen. You can do expectant management and roughly within 24 hours, most people will start to go into labor on their own. So you can do expectant management, but Pitocin is actually quite safe in those circumstances. The risk of uterine rupture is low. So Pitocin can definitely be used. You just want to use it carefully.

Meagan: Yeah. You mentioned that most people within 24 hours will start contracting and having labor, whether it be active at that point or not. But at what point could it be concerning? And maybe if we have GBS or something like that as a factor, would we be like, "Hey, we could keep waiting for the 24-hour mark," and that's not to go in and have a C-section, that's just maybe to augment. When would you encourage augmentation sooner?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: So I'm a little bit of an outlier. I just offer the options, and we can talk about that it may take longer if you wait to augment and that's it. It may take longer, and that's it. That can potentially increase the risk of infection. But we don't really do time limits. I don't do 18 hours or 24 hours. I kind of pick. These are moments for us to have discussions about where things are. So definitely usually 6, 12, 18, 24 and just to touch base and see where things are and develop an ongoing plan. Not necessarily have a hard and fast rule that you have to be delivered or by a certain point makes sense.

Meagan: And then preeclampsia. So we have seen this quite a bit in our community, on Facebook and on Instagram where they said, "Hey." There was a post just the other day that said, "Hey ladies, I just wanted to thank you so much for being here in this group. You guys have been amazing. Unfortunately, I have to sign off of this group because my provider said I have to have a C-section now because I've developed preeclampsia," so they didn't even offer the option to TOLAC or monitor. And everyone's like, "Wait, what?" This is a thing? 

So obviously, we know that we can, and everyone's numbers vary. If we've got severe preeclampsia and maybe that's not gonna be best for the stress of mom and baby and everybody, but do you have anything to say on that? I don't really know if I'm asking a question.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: But yeah, no. You can definitely try for a TOLAC in the setting of preeclampsia. Now, if even in severe preeclampsia, it just may take longer. But if we're seeing that you're getting sicker and labor isn't progressing or the baby is under distress, then the safer thing may be a C-section. So if you have severe preeclampsia, for example, and it's affecting your liver and your levels of your liver enzymes are going up, up, up, up, up, and we're not close to delivery, then it's going to be safer for your health to expedite birth, and that's going to be a C-section. So it really depends.

But the option of completely taking it off the table, that is not standard or that's not evidence-based.

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And for HELPP syndrome, where it's gone to that extreme. Now we've got platelet issues and things like that. Can someone with HELPP syndrome TOLAC or is that truly a better option to have a C-section?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: I would actually prefer if someone ideally is in labor with HELPP syndrome. Actually, a vaginal birth is going to be safer because when your platelets are low and then we're adding surgery, the risk bleeding goes up.

Meagan: That is what is so weird to me. My fifth birth was a HELPP syndrome. She was a VBAC, and they're like, "You have to have a scheduled C-section." But then we did all these transfusions and all these things and in my head, I was like, but isn't platelet meaning we have a higher risk of bleeding? 

But so yeah, that's another question.

Okay, I think there's only one or two maybe. Oh, this is a really great question. Is it safe to TOLAC? So again, listeners, TOLAC, if that's new for you, is a trial of labor after Cesarean. I know I've thrown it out a couple times this podcast. 

After having a hemorrhage in a C-section. So had a C-section hemorrhaged. Now they're wanting to TOLAC. Is that considered safe?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Sure.

Meagan: Okay.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Okay. I want to discourage people from using the word "safe" because I think what you really want to know is what are the risks of something happening again? So yeah, because what do you mean by safe?

Meagan: Right.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: What you really want to know is what are the risks of this thing happening again? So there are no identified increased risks in having a TOLAC after you had a postpartum hemorrhage during a previous C-section.

Meagan: Okay, I love that. So that's good because I mean anytime anyone hemorrhages with birth, I feel like it's a little bit on everyone's radar.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right. Okay, and then I have one more question for you before I let you go, and I don't know if it's Bandl's ring or Bandl's. How do you say that?

Meagan: Yeah, Bandl's ring. What is a Bandl's ring for those who it's very new to, and then can you TOLAC or have a VBAC with Bandls ring?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's a really tight ring of muscle in the uterus where it's just really tight, and it doesn't contract. I can only recall seeing it, like, once in 22 years, so it's not common.

Meagan: It's more rare.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, very rare. So it's just really hard to have a vaginal birth if there's a really tight ring of tissue that is preventing the uterus from opening. If the uterus can't open, then the baby can't come out. So that's the issue. It's not like we can release it or clear it up or anything. I don't know why. We don't know why it develops, but it's just, like anything, if it's tightly closed, it's really difficult to open.

Meagan: Yeah. Okay. That makes so much sense. And is there a way to find out if we have that beforehand?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Not really.

Meagan: Not really. Okay. And the signs of that Bandl's ring is just lack of progression it seems like.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Overall, it seems like lack of progression. And also, the baby usually doesn't come down in the pelvis.

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That was a one-off random one that crossed my mind. I keep seeing that one too. 

Anything else that you'd like to touch on? I love all of your points of stop considering the word safe and talk about, what are the risks here? What do we need to know to make the best educated decision? Having a collaborative discussion and relationship with our provider. So many great points along the way. 

Anything else that you'd like to add or say to the community to someone who really is wanting to know all the information they can to VBAC and are unsure of which way to go?

Dr. Nicole Rankins: I think that the best thing is just to really find a supportive provider, doctor, midwife, and do that in the prenatal appointments. Ask those questions early, and don't be afraid to change to someone else if you feel. And sometimes you may not have options, but if you have options, then find someone who is the most appropriate for you because that is going to be the thing that most sets you up for success. Oh, also, get a doula.

Meagan: Hey. I love it. I will never not advocate for doula, but really, I mean, I love that you're pointing it out again. Before birth, early on, ask those questions. Always have a conversation with your provider. If something is switching, it's okay to switch. I know it's daunting. It is daunting. It really is. I didn't want to cheat. I felt I was cheating on this doctor. We had this relationship. I don't even know what I thought. I thought I was cheating on him by leaving him. And I didn't leave him, and I didn't find myself having the experience that I wanted or feel like I deserved. And, looking back, I probably should have switched. Well, I didn't. I have learned, but I don't want anyone else to be in that situation of, dang it, I saw all the red flags, and I didn't switch because I felt bad.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to sound flippant, but I can guarantee you. Your doctor, if you leave, they're just gonna keep seeing patients. They're just going to go home and keep living their lives. It's going to be fine.

Meagan: I know. I had a friend, and she was like, "Looking back, do you realize how it wouldn't have impacted his life at all?" And I was like, "Yes. But in my mind, I had a deeper connection."

Dr. Nicole Rankins: I know. In the moment, you can't because you have that emotional connection, and you care about those things? So that's totally natural.

Meagan: Yeah. And in a lot of ways, he was saying, "Yeah, sure. I'll support you." But then in a lot of other ways, he wasn't saying this with his words, but he was saying, "No, that's not my thing."

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.

Meagan: So, yeah, you deserve the best and keep doing your research. Find the provider. Get a doula, hands-down. Just a reminder, everybody, we have VBAC-certified doulas on our website all over the world. And yeah, thank you so much. You're the best. And everyone, go follow her podcast and wait it out for these new updates. Yes.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, these new updates are so exciting. I'm so excited.

Meagan: I'm so excited for you. That's so awesome. You are just incredible. We really enjoy you. So, thank you.

Dr. Nicole Rankins: Thank you so much for having me. 

Closing

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