Fire Protection Podcast

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode 8 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Sean Mullen. Sean is the president and Chief Energy Officer of ProTech Central. We get into the Chief Energy Officer right off the bat, but Sean was a great guest. He's been an integral part of NFPA seven 70. NFPA 70 70 is the new Water Mist hybrid, uh, technology that is coming about the new standards, uh, being introduced, uh, later this year. So, pretty topical with N F P A coming up, uh, next week in San Antonio. Speaking of that N F P A in San Antonio this year. And Spec Point will be there with a booth. Uh, I'll also be recording a live podcast as well from N F P A. So feel free to stop by our booth. And, um, yeah, please enjoy the podcast with Sean Mullen.

Drew Slocum: (01:05):

Wanna welcome in, uh, Sean Mullens. Uh, what is, what is your actual title at, at, uh, at pci?

Shawn Mullen: (01:14):

My actual title is President and Chief Energy Officer. And, um, the only reason that I chose Chief Energy Officer was because, um, I felt that, um, and unless I designated myself as the engine, uh, president and chief, you know, executive officer was, I don't know, boring it, it didn't say anything. And I can tell you that when I hand out my business cards, uh, people look at that and they say, well, what does that mean? Right? So it, it's an instant opportunity to start a conversation. So there's a, there's a little bit of, uh, of, uh, other, other marketing intent along with that as well. But, um, I like it and it reminds me what I need to do every day to lead the company forward.

Drew Slocum: (02:05):

No, that's great. I, I figured it had something to do with that. And, uh, you know, again, it, it gets a conversation stirred, you know, when you first meet somebody. Yeah. So it really does. Yeah. So I kind of we're kicking that off right away. So, uh, yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Sean, for being on the podcast. This is, uh, it's a new avenue for us, you know, from Inspect Point, but also just, I wanna get more knowledge out there from fire protection. Um, usually, you know, you have to go to a trade show or be a part of a specific webinar to really learn about, you know, different types of fire protection out there and, and different aspects, how to run, run your businesses better. So, um, you reached out to me pretty early on, probably a couple months ago, a month ago, um, you know, very interested in, in, uh, coming on the podcasts.

(02:56)
I did a, I did a little research behind you, uh, with the F S S A, all my, all my buddies over there. So they, they gave Sure, they gave a big thumbs up to you. So let's, uh, oh, . Thank you. Yeah, no, it's, it's good. Um, so, uh, yeah, today I wanted to, I kind of wanted to gear this around. Uh, and this is coming from you a little bit. The, uh, you know, the clean agent, or not clean agent, I guess, I guess special hazards, uh, more involved, I guess, uh, or more specifically, the hybrid missed applications and, uh, really the new N F P A, uh, code that came out, N f nfpa, what is it, seven 70, I believe, right?

Shawn Mullen: (03:40):

Right. Yeah. So the, the technology is, um, really an interesting one in that it essentially fuses, um, two different media water mist at less than a hundred micro micron droplet size and, uh, an inert agent. And it fuses these two, uh, existing extinguishing media into a single hybrid media, which essentially suppresses and extinguishes the fire from, uh, two different elements of the old fire triangle, of course, with the, with the water miss, because of the increased surface area created, uh, by all those little water droplets we're clearly, uh, addressing the heat side of the fire triangle,

Drew Slocum: (04:32):

Right?

Shawn Mullen: (04:32):

Yep. And then with the inner agent, we are also addressing the oxygen, uh, level or the oxygen availability, um, uh, to the fire. And so we're really knocking, knocking that fire down, suppressing and ex and extinguishing from two different sides of that. It is a technology that's been around for several years. Um, there are, uh, domestically, there are, uh, two, uh, manufacturers, uh, Ansel makes the Aquas so Yep. Product. Yep. And Victaulic, uh, makes their vortex, uh, hybrid fire extinguishing system. So these two manufacturers ha, have been promoting, um, this technology. And as they approached the N F P A, um, they said, Hey, we don't think this really falls into the water mist N FPA seven 50, uh, guidelines, because we are actively using inert agent as a mechanism of suppression, right? And they said, we also, we don't think we fit into the NFPA a 2001, uh, area of clean agent suppression systems because we're using Mist, uh, you know, again, as an active element of the suppression.

(06:01)
And so, uh, the first time, uh, they went up to N F P A, um, the, the, um, powers that be there said, well, that's not there, there doesn't seem to be enough interest. We think that N F P A seven 50 is sufficient. And, uh, much like the, uh, dejected crew going before the Wizard of Oz, they said, you know, come back later, bring us the, the broom of the wicked witch of the West to these manufacturers. So they, they regrouped, uh, got involved in, uh, trade association, and I'll make a shameless plug for the Fire Suppression Systems Association. Yeah. Yep. And, um, began to get involved, uh, built up more of a rapport and an understanding of where this technology can be used. And here, uh, several years ago, uh, 2015 or so, they came back to N F P A and again, solicited, um, a, a a request to create a separate standard.

(07:02)
And they had more support from the industry end users, um, distributors, uh, installers like our company, PROTEX Central. And, uh, that time around the, uh, N F P A, uh, powers that be said, yes, we, we think that now this has traction. We think this has viability. And so, uh, the standards Council of N F P A, uh, created the N F P A seven 70 standard on hybrid fire extinguishing systems. And, um, I submitted my name as a representative of the Fire Suppression Systems Association to sit on that new, new standards committee. Right. And, uh, and part of a group of about 15, 16 individuals from all different stakeholder elements, from professional engineers to subject matter experts, to the manufacturers to, uh, end users, um, authorities having jurisdiction, uh, military, uh, and in installer, uh, installer distributors. So it is a, uh, well represented cross, unlike other n FPA committees. And to me, uh, having never sat on a, uh, national Standard Standard making council or a committee or a, or a code committee, uh, it was a new experience. I had been involved with state regulations and state, uh, licensing issues and things of that nature, but never on a national basis where you have Sure. A much wider, much more divergent, uh, set of views, uh, on on the technology Yeah. On the industry and the applications. So, um, yeah. So we started in, uh, working on the, the standard way back in 2016. So,

Drew Slocum: (08:57):

Uh, let me, let me stop you real quick. Uh, back to that, and I, I kind of wanted to highlight that, you know, hybrid mist is, is great. I was involved with it, um, when I was in my Tyco days with aquas and Aqua Mist two different, right. You know, one's high hybrid one's not. But, um, you know, just from the N F P A side, it sounds like they, you know, N F P A does a great job in, in, in bringing a lot of different viewpoints into these different standards and, and, and code committees, uh, whatever you wanna call it. Uh, w what, I guess what is, what has been your experience and, you know, are there, are there any pros and cons to, to, to bringing those together? I know N F P A does take a while to, to push anything through. I remember, I remember talking about seven 70, almost 10 years ago now, or at least the hybrid mist, not seven 70 specifically, so, right. Yeah. What's your, what was your experience with that? Just that whole process, and maybe explain to that, to the, to listenership.

Shawn Mullen: (10:00):

Sure. And, and I think, I think that's a good, it's a good thing to focus on. Um, it's much, it's much like, uh, laws and sausages. It's not a, um, it's not the fastest means to promulgating consensus standards and codes. And I think, you know, quite honestly, that, I think that's a good thing. Um, it, you know, much like you, um, I'm sure that you're much like, uh, everybody else in the industry, kind of a belt and suspenders kind of guy. I mean, if you're in the fire business, uh, you gotta make sure it's right and it's gonna work when it needs to. So, speeding through any type of standard development code development probably is not a, is probably not a good thing. And the way that N F P A has set up these stakeholders within the, the committee structure and the deliberative nature that occurs, um, you've got to work through and find consensus.

(11:00)
And so when you have these different voices at the table, you are not going to be all yes men. And, uh, not every idea is going to be met with uniformity. And when you have, uh, subject matter experts, you have professional engineers, you have end users, um, there are any number of viewpoints on any particular subject. And I would tell you that in our particular case of N FPA seven 70, um, we just had a heck of a time just getting our, our minds around defining what this hybrid media, uh, really is. Um, because it, it, it exists in two different elements and then it comes together. Um, and so we struggled long time to refine work on, uh, you know, put up trial balloons of definitions of what hybrid media, uh, really is. And so, um, once we finally got worked through that, where everybody was comfortable, uh, the rest of it started to fall in line pretty quickly.

(12:13)
Um, but when you have engineers who have a great depth of experience with, uh, you know, traditional, uh, fire sprinkler systems, clean agent systems, right? Uh, those types of things, you know, they, they have, they, they want specificity a as everybody else, but you grapple with the technology to understand how can we best define this, and at the same time, not play favorites. Uh, N F P A is, is very sensitive to giving any type of commercial nod intentionally or otherwise to any one particular manufacturer's type of, of solution. So, right. You have to kind of dance around that a little bit at the same time as well.

Drew Slocum: (12:57):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you know, NFPAs, you know, non, they have to be pretty vanilla when it comes to that, which is, which is good. That's what they need, that's what they need to do. So, that's right. Yeah. Um, I guess back to the hybrid mist, you know, I, I was involved in a lot of water mist in that technology, you know, 10 years ago before right. When Vortex really came out. Um, what are the, what are the best applications from a con from your perspective, a contractor's perspective? Sure. Cause you know, you have all the different tools out there to put out a fire, to put out a, you know, uh, to put a suppression system, a sprinkler system, alarm system in place. What are the best applications for that, that hybrid water mist and how it's being pushed at N F fpa?

Shawn Mullen: (13:44):

Sure. Um, well, the technology has been, uh, deployed in, in, uh, applications where you would have normally thought, well, that's a good clean agent type application. That might be a good water mis application. That might be a good CO2 application. And so, um, it, it has had, uh, different applications, but a, as a practical matter, we see a lot of, um, industrial applications where, for example, um, CO2 may have been more widely used and prescribed in the past, but because of the nature of CO2 and the exposure, uh, elements that come into play when you have personnel in correct in, in there, um, these types of hybrid systems have a legitimate and, uh, well, uh, well documented and success in those applications where low pressure co2 or high pressure CO2 may have been used. Uh, so you're looking at enclosures, uh, you know, flammable liquid storage areas, um, you know, power gen, uh, those types of things.

(14:59)
Yeah. And, and also in, in industry as well, um, any type of, of area that, uh, could have had clean agent, uh, might be a candidate as well. Because when you're looking at these hybrid agents, uh, the inner element of them, uh, at least in the vortex, uh, equation, uses an nitrogen. Right. And so the requirements for sealing of the hazard are not as rigorous as they would be if you were using a traditional, uh, you know, hydrocarbon type clean agent. Right. And so we have had applications in, in our experience, uh, of, of using the hybrid systems when the cost of a, uh, clean agent system gets, gets a little pricey because, not of the system itself, but because of the modifications that have to be made to the hazard, uh, construction wise in order to seal it up Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (16:00):

Vent or even venting from the, from the inert side where you have to vent, you know, pressure venting, you're

Shawn Mullen: (16:06):

E Exactly. Right. Uh, and so again, um, having the availability, having the tool of the hybrid systems, uh, gives owners, end users, AHJs engineers, um, another option to consider. Right? And the other, uh, attractive element, um, is that when you're using water and nitrogen, uh, your, your cost of recharge is a fairly low impact, right? It's not going to be sticker shock as you might have with an unexpected discharge of the clean agent system.

Drew Slocum: (16:39):

Sure, sure. Yeah, it was interesting. Uh, you know, we brought up Bermuda before, um, when we originally, when we started off the podcast, and, uh, when I was down there, uh, you know, vict gave a presentation on Vortex. But, you know, because of the, first of all, the recharge, uh, cost and just availability of a, a clean agent or whatever, uh, everything's pushing towards Vortex, but on top of that, they have a big water issue because it's an island without a lot of, um, you know, natural springs or natural water. So, uh, you know, that that mist style, whether it's regular mist or hybrid mist is, is a lot more powerful down there because they don't have the water supply. So,

Shawn Mullen: (17:26):

Uh, and it's, it's been huge. It's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting that you should mention that because we have had applications here in the Midwest where water pressure is not sufficient, uh, for protection of a particular area. And, um, so rather than, you know, bringing in, you know, six eight inch water mains and having to put in a fire pump, uh, we, we've been able to go in and provide the hybrid system with its own, you know, uh, water supply, its own nitrogen supply, and, uh, boom, we've got, uh, reliable, accurate fire protection, which I'm happy to say has actually put out a couple of fires, uh, really in some, yeah. In some engine test cells, uh, wow. Where the water pressure in the, in the city was too low to meet the demands for sprinkler. Um, and, uh, we, we were able to move forward with a hybrid system and, uh, put it in, and I bet it was in, in place for maybe, uh, three or four months, and one of the zones popped off and put out a fire in an engine test cell.

(18:32)
So, um, the, the systems do work, uh, when installed design maintained, uh, correctly. And, uh, you know, the, the obviously end user is very happy. The fire department's very happy, um, and, you know, they're back up in business and, uh, running with it. So, um, it does have its place. It's not for every possible application. Sure. And, you know, um, but again, it's a tool and it's another mechanism that's available, uh, to, to fight, uh, fires when they do occur so that they minimize, uh, you know, uh, loss of life and, and loss of property damage, so, right. Uh, that, that's why I'm kind of interested in it, because it is yet another option available, um, in, in the toolbox.

Drew Slocum: (19:17):

Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's great that there's, there's something else. And, you know, technology's pushing forward. It is, uh, you know, I, I always thought, I, I always questioned back in the day when, when, uh, you know, water mist is big, and even the hybrid was, was coming around. It's a great technology. Why was it never adopted? And, you know, I think the, the, the code of NFPA seven 70 coming out, uh, will help that along, obviously. When, when do you think that will, uh, when is that gonna be published? Or is it, is it already published? I know, maybe it's not finalized yet.

Shawn Mullen: (19:54):

It is not published, but, uh, at the N F P A conference that is, uh, coming up, I, I believe it's next week in San Antonio. I, I am not able to attend.

Drew Slocum: (20:06):

Yep. We'll be there. Uh,

Shawn Mullen: (20:07):

Um, but I believe that the, uh, the second, uh, the second draft is up and it goes to a floor vote for approval. And if it gets past there, uh, it goes to the standard council and, and final doc document review and the timeline that we looked at earlier this year, uh, assuming there's no, uh, no hue cry on the floor at N F P A, uh, should be, uh, released in early 2020, and then we'll be into that, uh, cycle, that three year cycle of rotation. But, uh, so far, uh, we have addressed all of the public comments that have come in mm-hmm. , um, and, and been submitted. Um, and I believe the, uh, the last public comment, election, public comment period, uh, closed in early May, um, and I know it's on the agenda coming forward, uh, you know, uh, at, at next week's meeting.

(21:04)
So that's kind of the timeframe. And, um, I know that I am, I am eager to have it out. Um, and then we've got a living breathing document, and it's not, you know, it just doesn't exist in a tentative stage Sure. But in approved stage. And, uh, and then, you know, obviously the next, the next element is getting it out there in the public, uh, having the uses for it, uh, have people interact with it. And then that's really when, uh, when it comes into play to understand where are the areas we're gonna need to address, you know, in the next revision, or are we gonna have to, you know, in, you know, issue, you know, temporary, um, amendments, interim amendments, uh, for things that we may not have clearly understood the impact of, and those types of things. But, um, I think once we get the boat in the water and it's floating, then we'll understand better how to, how to improve that standard going forward.

Drew Slocum: (21:59):

No, no, it's interesting. And, you know, from, from start to finish, uh, and I would, I might get somebody from N F P A Ja James, either from, uh, N F P A or somebody else that understands the process really well. Uh, James Gvo, uh, the ceo or a president of Viking, Viking Corp. Uh, you know, when I was, when I was back at Viking, gave a great presentation on kind of the start to finish of, of an N F P A cycle and just development of a code, and, you know, how the revisions come into pace, how public opinion, and even how to submit. A lot of people don't know how to submit for public opinion sometimes.

Shawn Mullen: (22:40):

That's right.

Drew Slocum: (22:40):

Which I think, I think needs to get out there more. Maybe that's a, it actually spurs on a, an idea for myself to maybe have a podcast about just that whole process to, to get people to comment, you know, the more people commenting, obviously, yes, N F P A has to go through all that, but the more people commenting, the better off for the standard. At the end of the day.

Shawn Mullen: (23:01):

You are, you are exactly right. And, and that's a very good, um, that, that's a very good comment from the standpoint that, um, the, the process relative to, um, making public comment, quite honestly, I think it's pretty easy once you understand where to go, right? on, you know, on the, uh, um, on the NFPAs website and navigate, you know, navigate to that point. But honestly, the, the documentation, what is, is all prompted there. Um, it is logged, um, it is acknowledged. The, the receipt of the question, the receipt of the input is logged and acknowledged. And, um, as, as per the requirements of N F P A

(24:00)
Inputs, uh, public comments, um, they have to be addressed by the committee. And so anyone who takes the time to, uh, submit a, a, a comment or an input, um, you know, they're gonna get, they're, they're, it's either gonna be accepted as written or if it's going to be, uh, rejected, it has to have a reason why did you reject it? Right? Or if there, if there's a modification, again, it has to be documented. So I, I like that part of it. And I think pe people who would, who would be interested in that type of thing, uh, might find that process, um, you know, very, uh, fair, transparent and open. Yeah. Um, I would say as far as our committee, um, we have a, um, a staff liaison who is a professional, uh, engineer. His, his name is Barry Chase. I don't know if you know Barry or

Drew Slocum: (24:52):

Not. No, I don't know Barry. No.

Shawn Mullen: (24:54):

But, uh, just a really, really sharp individual, um, very, very fair and also very encouraging. Um, Barry also is the, I believe, the staff staff liaison for 2001. And, uh, so his knowledge of that standard and knowing what we were trying to, um, knowing to knowing what tried to, to, to accomplish was, was very helpful, um, in those types of things. And so his, his patient, uh, guidance, um, and, and knowledge of the standards and knowledge of the process, uh, really kind of furthered, um, furthered the entire, uh, effort along very, very well.

Drew Slocum: (25:35):

No, no, no. That's great. Uh, yeah, I, I've dealt with, uh, N F P A 25. I've been to few of those meetings, and, um, uh, Matt Klaus was big on that for a little bit. I think he's off of N F P A 25, but that's, that's a, uh, that's an interesting standard as well. It's, it's, it's interesting how a standard develops over time and how, uh, how complicated it can get, um, . Yeah. So, um, yeah, very interesting. So,

Shawn Mullen: (26:03):

So, one other thing I might mention for the listeners, they may not know this, but, um, there is no prohibition for guests to attend an N F P A committee meeting. Right. Um, we have had, uh, several guests, um, attend our meeting. And in many respects, um, any time that they have wanted to maybe offer a comment, they may have wanted to offer an observation, at least in, in, in our committee. The, uh, who was ever chairing the committee at the time, um, was, was very open to welcoming their observations and their comments. Obviously, they can't vote, but, uh, their input was welcome. And, uh, in, in a couple of instances it was very helpful. And so, um, you know, these are not, uh, by invitation only, uh, you don't have to be a member of N F P A to actually attend, uh, uh, an N F P A committee meeting. You can be, you know, John Q public if you want. So that's an important thing to be aware of as

Drew Slocum: (27:12):

Well. No, no, that's a good point. Yeah, I was, I was a guest at, uh, N F P A 25 couple times. And, uh, yeah, it's very interesting. You really learn the process, you know, you gotta, you gotta dig through the, the different standards of when they're meeting, but it's usually a nice location as well, Sure. Yeah. I think goes Arizona in the wintertime, so that's always nice to get out.

Shawn Mullen: (27:34):

Well, you know, all of, all of the expenses are born by the committee members. Uh, N F P A does not pay us, right. They do not reimburse any of our expenses. So all of all of this is volunteer time. Um, and, uh, the committee members pay their own expenses. And so this really is a commitment to the industry, um, for the betterment of the industry, that these individuals, um, you know, take freely of their time and their expertise and their expense to contribute to this. And so, um, they're not only voting with their knowledge, they're voting with their dollars, uh, to assure that these, these, uh, standards are created in a fair, open, transparent, and collaborative way.

Drew Slocum: (28:20):

No, no, that's great. I'm, I'm glad, uh, glad we're actually talking about that, cuz it's, uh, I'm, I'm sure a lot of listeners don't fully understand that. And again, I'll probably do another, maybe get somebody from N F P A to, to really give a, a deep dive in how to, how to proceed with those public comments and everything, so. Sure, sure. Um, so we're, uh, we're, that's kind of the gist of what I kind of wanna get across the new NFPA seven 70, um, uh, code. Um, is there anything, is there anything from your perspective, from Protex Central that you wanna pass the message along? I want to give you a little bit of time to, you know, I know you're probably heavy day today with your, your, your business. Um, give you some time to plug it or anything else you're doing.

Shawn Mullen: (29:10):

Well, uh, thank you for that opportunity. Um, my, uh, 32nd elevator speech, uh, about our company. Um, we are a 53 year young, uh, life safety special systems integrator. Wow. Primarily, primarily operating in the states of Iowa and Nebraska. But we have done work nationally, uh, as requested by various customers. Um, we are a UL listed fire alarm installation contractor. Mm-hmm. , uh, which, you know, as you know, simply means that we have third party validation, um, of our installation practices and techniques and documentation for fire alarm systems that we do. Um, and we also, uh, encourage, um, nice certification of our designers, um, and our installers and inspectors. Right. And, um, my background drew, um, is, is not from a technical perspective. Um, when I was growing up, I thought I was gonna be a professional musician and, uh, went off and, uh, managed professional orchestras for a couple of years. Wow. And then my father who started this company, uh, made me an offer I couldn't refuse, I'll put it that way,

Drew Slocum: (30:33):

. That, that's

Shawn Mullen: (30:34):

Great. He invited me to join him in business. And, uh, so for the past 35 years, uh, I have been doing that. Uh, it's, and um, I thought, you know, this nice set certification process, um, we need, we need to make sure that our people know Yes, that's important. And so I said, you know, I'm gonna do it. I'm just, I'm, I'm gonna hunker down. I'm gonna do what I need to do. And so I'm a nice at level four, uh, in, uh, fire alarms and I'm a nice at level three in special hazards. Wow. And so I, I tell my team, Hey, look at if a dumb percussionist, you know, in recovery for the past 30 years, can in tackle it and make it happen, you can too. Right. So, um, I, I'm a big one in a lot of our team is, has taken the cue from that and they pursued their nice certifications as well.

Drew Slocum: (31:27):

Yeah, no, that's great. I'm, I, I, you know, I'm, I wish, I wish more companies were like that, you know, we're, you know, my day-to-day business we're heavily involved in inspection, testing and maintenance and, you know, getting technicians, uh, up to speed with different codes and just, just what to look for. It really covers that and, and a lot of the nice, uh, uh, you know, certifications out there. So. Yeah.

Shawn Mullen: (31:53):

And I might make a shameless plug forny e as well. Um, that might be an interesting podcast for you. Um, and if you'd like, I can get you to contact people there at nset. But, um, when we were going through, uh, the state licensing requirements here in the state of Iowa, um, NSET was very supportive and very helpful, uh, with delineating their methodology Sure. Of testing and how they come about that. Right. And, uh, some of the, you know, processes that they have to ensure integrity of that testing process, which I think is, is really, really important.

Drew Slocum: (32:33):

No, no, I, I would love to, yeah, I would love to pass that info along. I'd love to have them on, cuz I I do have some, uh, I have a few comments for them as well, cuz I feel they do a great job with certification. Yep. But you almost need to, you almost need a certification to learn how to get a certification and is Well, you know, I love to have them on here. We can talk about it, but I, it, you know, and I'm not the only one saying that. A lot of people say that, so love, Hey, maybe we could clear the air on that, uh, with Nysa. I think that would, that would be helpful. Um, well,

Shawn Mullen: (33:12):

I'll be sure it forward, uh, my contacts information onto you. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, I I'm sure he'd be more than happy, you know, to, to, to speak with you and your listeners. Yeah. Um, on, on how they do, how they go about that and who knows. He might be open to some, uh, friendly amendments and suggestions Right.

Drew Slocum: (33:31):

From, you know, from my listeners. Exactly. . All right. That'd be good. Um, well, thanks again. I'll, I'll, uh, I'm, I'm gonna do a little quick response round here. I don't know if you've heard, I'm sure you've heard of a few of my podcasts, but Yes. Do a little, uh, kinda lightning round quick response round here. Couple questions, uh, for you to kind of have people get to know you, Sean. So, uh, um, yeah, pretty, pretty simple. Uh, what out there, I know you're big in alarm suppression. What, what is your favorite type of detection

Shawn Mullen: (34:07):

Method? Air sampling.

Drew Slocum: (34:08):

Air sampling. Wow. All right. Right off the bat, air sampling like a avesta system or is it specific to something else, or specific?

Shawn Mullen: (34:18):

No, I, I, I push air sampling every chance I get. Um, I think it's a wonderful technology and, uh, of course I'm, I'm partial to one particular manufacturer because we've had a lot of success with that. In fact, we installed the very, very first, uh, system of that manufacturer, um, in the state of Iowa, um, back in 1985.

Drew Slocum: (34:41):

Wow. And, uh,

Shawn Mullen: (34:41):

We, we have, uh, been, uh, proponents of that technology ever since us

Drew Slocum: (34:47):

No, that's good. I mean, if you've, if you've been doing it since 1985, obviously you've seen over time, uh, any issues or any obviously advantages to that, so that's, that's great. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't see too much of it out there. I, you know, I wish it was, you know, you see it, the, the certain applications where it's, um, where it's potentially needed in data centers or freezers or anything, but

Shawn Mullen: (35:12):

Oh, it's, it's much, it's much broader than that. Uh, we, we've used it in, in a lot of different applications including, um, you know, historical structures mm-hmm. , uh, you know, where you can easily hide the tubing. Um, you know, we, we've used it in, uh, corrections facilities, um, yeah, we've used it in manufacturing areas. Uh, it's, it's very versatile. Um, and, uh, so anytime we, we have the chance, we lead with that because the value proposition that it affords the end user. Ah,

Drew Slocum: (35:46):

Great. Great. Great. Uh, second question here. Um, other than being a part of seven 70, what other committee would you wanna be a part of at nfpa?

Shawn Mullen: (36:01):

Uh, if I could, I'd like to be a member of NFPA three, or NFP or NFPA four, which are the systems commissioning standards.

Drew Slocum: (36:11):

Yeah,

Shawn Mullen: (36:11):

Yeah. That have come out. Um, I, I, I really think that those are powerful and I think that the, um, necessity of those is, is really, really critical. Um, and I, I, if I had my druthers, um, I, I would like to sit on one of those committees because obviously our company gets caught up a lot of times in, you know, the testing and commissioning of the systems. Um, and we have concerns that not, not as good of a, um, thorough testing is accomplished because you have construction deadlines, you got owners that want their buildings, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, sometimes if these systems don't, don't get tested correctly, uh, it, it, it's, it's problematic downstream, so, oh, yeah. You know, getting it right at the front end is really critical.

Drew Slocum: (37:04):

No, no, that's, that's good. I don't, I don't know n fp three or four that much, but I'll, uh, I'll definitely do some digging after this. I'll send,

Shawn Mullen: (37:11):

I'll send you another contact who would be a good a, a good for your podcast? He sits on NFPA three, and he's very, uh, very knowledgeable. And boy, he can, he can nuggetize that down into bite-sized pieces, which, which makes it easy to understand.

Drew Slocum: (37:26):

Good. Good. Um, so little, little sidebar here. I know, so I, I guess I learned today that you, uh, you were an orchestra, uh, what, you said you were an orchestra manager before. Yeah.

Shawn Mullen: (37:40):

Yeah. I,

Drew Slocum: (37:41):

Uh, so I, I know you have your, your own podcast out there, which I've listened to a couple of them. What, what made you choose your, I mean, your, what made you choose your intro music? What, what was that?

Shawn Mullen: (37:52):

Oh, . Um, well, um, I, I give credit to one of my favorite, uh, favorite bands, Kansas. Ah,

Drew Slocum: (38:00):

Uh,

Shawn Mullen: (38:00):

It, it's just a snippet off of questions of my childhood, which was on there Leftovers, your album, um, in 1976, which had the big hit carry on my Wayward son.

Drew Slocum: (38:11):

Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Mullen: (38:12):

Um, but I've been a wheat head since the band first, since their first album in 1974. And, uh, and so I, I, if I gave 'em credit and I played less than 10 seconds, I thought they'd be okay with it. And I haven't heard anybody, uh, scream too

Drew Slocum: (38:25):

Loud. No, no, no. That's good. Yeah, it, it's interesting how, uh, you know, even with this podcast of, you know, what, what, uh, you know, what the mu intro musics and how that Chris Logan from the, the Fire Sprinkler podcast is, he's got a nice rock little intro. Mine's a little smooth jazz, so it's always little interesting. Yeah. How, uh, how people come up with that. So, uh, yeah, it's fun. No, that's cool. All yeah, your, your Rotary Club, uh, podcast. That's a, that's a great idea to get information, obviously out to the masses, and, uh, very impressed with what you're doing there.

Shawn Mullen: (39:01):

Um, well, thank you. I, um, I, I, again, um, it's just one of those things I'd always been interested in. Listen, I, I, I've enjoyed listening to podcasts and I just thought, man, I, I could, I think I could do something like that, but I, I just didn't know what would be appropriate. And so when I came into this leadership position in my Rotary Club, I thought, Hey, instead of writing the mandatory Weekly, you know, newsletter from the president, I thought, ah, forget that I'm gonna do a, you know, 15, 20 minute, uh, podcast each week. So I've learned a lot, uh, you know, about the technology that's out there to produce these, and just the process of putting it together. So thank, thank you for your kind

Drew Slocum: (39:39):

Words. No, no, it's good. Yeah, I, uh, uh, I implore more people to, to obviously listen. I talk to a lot of people about it. And, uh, um, I'm actually helping my wife tomorrow, uh, get her podcast launched. She does a, uh, she does a big cause marketing, uh, summit every year, brings nonprofits and for-profits together, kind of on one vision, but, uh, wow. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So, your, a lot of your rotary stuff, I actually knew one of your speakers, um, for that Rotary club, uh, for your big summit. And, um, yeah, so I told her to check it out and just check other podcasts out to get theirs launched, so,

Shawn Mullen: (40:21):

Well, great. Fantastic.

Drew Slocum: (40:24):

Well, um, yeah, that's, that's all I really got, um, for the quick response, Ron. And again, thanks for, thanks for stopping on the podcast. I, I would love to have you on. Again,

Drew Slocum: (40:34):

Thanks for tuning in to episode seven of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Wanna thank my guest again, Sean Mullen for, for joining me on on today's chat. Uh, again, I do apologize to the listenership out there. We did have a few, uh, technical glitches through Skype, so, uh, I had to cut it off a little bit early, but we were ending the podcast anyway. So appreciate all the, uh, subscription and all the great comments about the Fire Protection Podcast. Please reach out to us, uh, via our inspect point platform, www.inspectpoint.com. Or you can actually email directly at, uh, drew inspect point.com. Hope to hear from you soon.

Luke and Drew sit down to catch up and chat about HVAC ducting fire protection. In the fire protection industry we are used to active systems such as suppression and sprinkler. Conquest FireSpray manufacturers and distributes a coated HVAC ducting system that surpasses other methods of gaining a fire rating on a ventilation system.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode 7 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today my guest is Luke Connery. Luke is the Vice President and general manager of the Northeast Region at Conquest Fire Spray. Conquest Fire Spray is a manufacturer of fire rated ducting. It's really outside the realm of our, our regular, um, thoughts of fire protection, fire suppression, fire sprinkler, fire alarm. So I wanted to get a, a, a different perspective from somebody that has been in the industry for over 20 years. Uh, I've worked with Luke at, at Tyco back in the day and wanted to get his perspective on passive fire protection, where the industry's going, and how, uh, the H V A C systems and fire rating compared to active fire suppression systems. So, little different topic today. So I'd love, I'd love to, uh, get his take on it and hope you enjoy the podcast.

Drew Slocum: (01:06):

Yeah. I wanna welcome in, uh, Luke Connery. Uh, Luke is the, if I get this wrong, let me know, but you're the general manager, uh, vice president for the Northeast for Conquest Flame Bar. Um, I believe that's a fire rated ducting system for, uh, fire protection H V A C. It's kind of in the realm of what we do at Inspect point with some of the dampers and all that, but, you know, most of fire protection as we grew up with it. Yeah. Is sprinkler fire alarm, all that. So, wanted to have you on to, this is a whole different, more passive fire protection, so, yeah. Um, yeah. You expressed interest and Yeah. Let's, let's shoot. Yeah.

Luke Connery: (01:46):

Yeah. So, I mean, uh, first and foremost, thank you very much for having me on the platform, having me on the podcast here. Um, uh, you know, I spend a lot of time driving in the car doing commutes, uh, you know, on the way to customer sites, what have you. And, um, you know, you can listen to Sirius XM radio, you can listen to the radio, whatever it is, and Right. Maybe during football season, that's, uh, maybe I'll tune into some sports radio. But, you know, podcast is, uh, podcasting. It's a way to kind of dial in exactly what you're interested in. Yeah. And, uh, so I've been listening to yours. I think it's great. I think you're doing good work here. So, uh, thanks. Congratulations on the podcast. Yeah,

Drew Slocum: (02:25):

It'll, uh, it'll definitely get better. It's obviously evolving. Um, but again, you know, we've done a bunch of sprinkler style podcasts. I want to get more, you know, different realms of fire protection, including the H V A C side of things, which you brought up. I didn't, I don't know a lot of this. So, yeah. I guess what is, what is Flame Bar, you know, for just the general audience out there?

Luke Connery: (02:49):

Yeah. So you'll hear the name, uh, conquest Fire Spray, you'll hear Conquest Flame Bar, you'll hear just Flame Bar by itself. The product is is called Flame Bar. It's, it's fire rated duct. But I think in recent years we've taken it beyond just the duct work itself. It's really, you know, fire rated Duct Systems. Yeah. Um, you know, featuring, uh, you know, custom enclosures and, and you know, we, we manufacture, we fabricate the duct. Uh, we coat the duct. It all happens out of one of our two locations. Um, just outside of Detroit. We have a factory that's our headquarters in Warren, Michigan. Mm-hmm. . Then we have another, uh, plant down in Miramar, Florida. So it, you know, we do fire rated duct. Um, and so, you know, I just wanted to comment real quick. Yeah. You mentioned people think fire protection and people think sprinkler. People think, um,

Drew Slocum: (03:42):

Extinguishers fire alarms.

Luke Connery: (03:43):

Yeah, yeah. Suppression. The suppression, yeah. Suppression. The suppression side of the industry is the one that sort of, I guess, has more gravitational pull or people sort of defer to that when they hear the term fire protection. But you're right, it's bigger than that. Um, and so, um, this, this whole passive side, which Fire rated Duct fits into is a part of that. Um, it is a part of that bigger world mm-hmm. . Yeah. And it has its roots in sort of the code, the building code, the mechanical code, which from a fire protection standpoint, um, this is what sort of outlines how you build buildings, you know, uh, where the tradeoffs exist. And, uh, it's one of the most important, you know, uh, parts of, uh, building design is, you know, focusing on the code and what the code dictates and Yeah. Right. Uh, how the code is applied and, and what gets traded off when you're using some of these suppression systems, for example. Right. Um, and, and so, uh, so certainly, you know, um, so as it pertains to Flame Bar, fire rated Duct, you think of, you know, the example that comes to mind most frequently is, you know, towers or any kind of any building that's forced

Drew Slocum: (04:52):

Or high rises. Yeah,

Luke Connery: (04:53):

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Four floors or more. Right. And, um, you know, when you're penetrating from a ventilation standpoint, those floors Yep. You wanna make sure that, you know, you're not inviting a fire to start on, you know, floor number two and move up to floor number 15. Right. Uh, so there's certain protectives that get put in place and sort of, um, you know, that's, that's where the code comes in. That's where fire rated Duct comes into that.

Drew Slocum: (05:20):

Gotcha.

Luke Connery: (05:21):

So where's

Drew Slocum: (05:22):

That? Is that in the ibc? Is that in jurisdictional building codes, or how, I don't, I don't know where the, the code's coming from

Luke Connery: (05:33):

At that point. So y yes, yes. So the IBC is the biggest part of that. Right. Uh, and it just depends on the jurisdiction as to which addition of the building code has been adopted. Mm-hmm. and, um, so here in Massachusetts, and uh, actually technically we're sitting in Rhode Island here, but in Massachusetts it's uh, seven 80 cmr. So it relies on the 2015 version of the ibc. Okay. Um, and then also the 2015 version of the IMC is referenced the International Mechanical Code. Yep. And, um, and that drives a lot of what we do and within the building code, you know, you know, one of the things that we deal with quite a bit with fire rated duct is this idea of symmetry. Um, yeah, I think you were probably like five years old when you first heard, you're only as strong as your weakest link .

(06:26)
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that applies to materials used in construction, especially fire rated materials. And so if you have a, a wall assembly, right. You know, when you test it in the furnace, in these fire tests, right? Mm-hmm. , you'll hear me reference probably a S D m E one 19, um, you know, which, which will the temperatures go to 2000 degrees. Wow. Not only do the temperatures, not only does that assembly need to work on this side of the wall, but it also needs to work on the other, the other side of the wall. Right. Right. And everything throughout the building is tested that way. Okay. So

Drew Slocum: (07:01):

Is that assembly, sorry to go back, but that, that ASTM standard, you're testing that duct work or whatever, uh, you're doing in, in a furnace.

Luke Connery: (07:11):

That's exactly right. And you know which furnace has, you know, furnace will have size limitations to it. Sure. But you know, I mean, these are pretty big, these are big furnaces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So UL will build a furnace, uh, you know, Intertech labs will build a furnace. There's okay. A bunch of other laboratories across the world that have these furnaces that run the same or similar time temperature curves to get up to that 2000 degrees, which is the temperatures that you see in a fire. Yep. Whether it's a 45 minute, one hour, two hour, four hour Yep. Fire resistance rating. Okay. And so it's important for, uh, uh, the materials used in construction to perform in a symmetric way, uh, to those, or at those temperatures. So with fire rated duct, a lot of what's been done for the past 10, 20, 30 years Yep. Is exposure only to one side of that.

Drew Slocum: (08:04):

Oh, okay.

Luke Connery: (08:05):

Interesting. So, so especially here in North America. Right. Um, and you just have, it's called, you know, strong side exposure or duct a, which is fire those 2000 degree temperatures. Yep. Outside the duct only.

Drew Slocum: (08:19):

Okay. Not inside, just

Luke Connery: (08:21):

Outta the, what about strong side, the temperatures on the inside of the duct. Right. Right. Why is that not important or less important? Right. In fire rated ducts of all places. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (08:31):

Cuz they heat transferring inside if there's a fire.

Luke Connery: (08:33):

Well, it could, I mean, some of these, you know, plenums, which might be fire rated plenums, big intake plenums on the side of modern commercial building mm-hmm. might be the size of a school bus.

(08:44)
Oh right. Yeah. And if you have a truck fire or if you have a external cladding fire or whatever it might be, you're gonna be taking hot gases right. Into that intake plant and Oh yeah. If you're not protected on inside of that duct Sure. Or if you don't have listings that sort of show you how to install your product so that it protects the inside of that duct, that's called weak side exposure or duct B. Okay. So you can go out there and see these duct B listings. Yeah. UL has duct B listings, Intertech has duct B listings. You really wanna see that duct B you know, sort of, uh, uh, listing associated with these products in order to be compliant with the code. Right. And so really what happens, uh, what we find happening is people doing kind of the status quo, cuz they've done it that way for 20 or 30 years, you know, they'll use a product that UL ultimately only has like a, you know, auc a listing. Yeah. Right. And um, most of it has to do with lack of education. Yeah. But there's also commercial forces that are at play. These tend to be sort of cost, you know Yeah. Cheaper solutions. Right. And we're not talking order of magnitude, we're not talking. These things cost even. It might

Drew Slocum: (09:51):

Be cheaper for the product, but for the overall project might not be cheaper.

Luke Connery: (09:56):

Right. Well, yeah. And, and, and the question that you've gotta answer is, are you willing to trade reduced fire and life safety? Mm-hmm. , if your kids are in this building, are you willing to trade, um, you know, reduced fire safety? Right. Um, for 10% Yeah. Of the cost. Right. In terms of in cost reduction mm-hmm. and that's, that's the game that we play. Or, or that that's the message that we try to send

Drew Slocum: (10:21):

Trying into the code, really into the margin. Yeah. Drive that code a

Luke Connery: (10:24):

Little bit. We're working on all, on all aspects. So Yeah. Engineers, you know, conquest is, we're about, um, you know, 50 people mm-hmm. and we're broken out into a few regions. We're really big down in Florida, uh, Boston, we've been here for years mm-hmm. in the northeast New York, you know, the eastern seaboard. Yeah. We're out in San Francisco. The Midwest is starting to grow. Right. Uh, in, in terms of, um, you know, demand for the product. So, um, yeah. It's, I mean, drew, we're Todd fucking engineers, architects, general contractors, right. Uh, mechanicals sheet metal contractors, drywallers Yeah. And everybody in between.

Drew Slocum: (11:03):

How, how do the sheet metal contractors compared to the sprinkler suppression world?

Luke Connery: (11:08):

,

Drew Slocum: (11:09):

I, you know, my sister's an H V HD contractors, but I don't, I don't know what the whole industry is.

Luke Connery: (11:14):

Yeah. You know, there's a lot of similarities I gotta say. Yeah. I mean, heck, some of 'em, there's even overlaps. I mean, some people are doing H V A C contracting and sprinkler contract, right?

Drew Slocum: (11:24):

Yeah. Yeah. We have some big users of inspect point that are doing both that are Yeah. Inspecting dampers, duct work, stuff like

Luke Connery: (11:30):

That. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, um, look, contracting is contracting at some level and, um, you know, I think you have folks who are more enlightened and, and wanna do the right thing and are willing to sort of drive that message along with you mm-hmm. and they go shoulder to shoulder and help everybody that they're talking to, to understand the importance of duct B and symmetry in these fire protection systems. Right. Uh, and you have other people that are, you know, um, more likely to do what they've always done because, I mean, heck, you know, in the Northeast it's so busy, there's so much work happening.

Drew Slocum: (12:06):

Yeah. It's very busy right now.

Luke Connery: (12:07):

It's not a question of can I do the right thing? It's can I do the thing that'll be accepted? Yeah. And can I do that as fast as I can? Yeah. Cause there's so much work to go get right now. Yeah. Uh, that that's what people are, you know, that's their primary

Drew Slocum: (12:20):

Objective. When do you, when do you think the slowdown, there's gotta be a slowdown here soon?

Luke Connery: (12:24):

Yeah. I mean, you know, knock on wood and, um, you know, what you do. Here are some of these contractors talking about Oh. All across the value chain. Right. Um, 2023

Drew Slocum: (12:35):

Isn't

Luke Connery: (12:35):

That far. 2024. Wow. Yeah. So these projects are, you know, gonna be wrapping up at that point. But you gotta think, you know, the design community is doing work right now.

Drew Slocum: (12:45):

Yeah. So, yeah. Right. That's, that's always been a few years out. Right.

Luke Connery: (12:48):

So if those guys are doing work now, then you gotta think it's gonna, you know, carry past those dates. Yep. So it, it is, it's crazy how many cranes are on the horizon. Yep. In greater Boston. And I'm sure in many other parts of the country right now, I

Drew Slocum: (13:03):

Think, what's it, Toronto's got the most right now. He was talking, I think he was talking to my brother. Toronto's got a a ton. Seattle's got a ton. New York's still got a lot. Yeah. But Toronto for some reason

Luke Connery: (13:16):

Is, you know, I've heard that. Yeah,

Drew Slocum: (13:18):

I've heard that. It's blowing up. Um,

Luke Connery: (13:20):

You know, it's good.

Drew Slocum: (13:20):

Great. Yeah,

Luke Connery: (13:21):

It's, it's really good. I I was even hearing that, uh, all the way down through, you know, K through 12 construction. I mean, you know, the type of construction cuz construction in the high demand environment is expensive. Mm-hmm. . So typically you have like, you know, institutional, you know, construction work happening in the down market when they can get construction for cheap.

Drew Slocum: (13:41):

Right.

Luke Connery: (13:42):

But all that's hitting on all cylinders Yeah. Right now. Yeah. So it's just a, a crazy time to be in the construction industry.

Drew Slocum: (13:49):

No, it is. It's, it's, uh, you know, ever since that little, little blip in the late two thousands, it's been been pretty strong. So, yeah. So, uh, back to this flame bar. You gave me a little, uh, nice little coaster here.

Luke Connery: (14:02):

,

Drew Slocum: (14:03):

Um, put my beer

Luke Connery: (14:05):

On it. I know it. Right.

Drew Slocum: (14:07):

Uh, what is, all right. So it's a, we're on a podcast, you really can't see, and I'm not Eventually we'll be videoing this, but, um, it's a piece of galvanized duct on one side with Luke's info. And on the other side is a, is a coating. Uh, I guess what, what's the coding made of?

Luke Connery: (14:27):

Um,

Drew Slocum: (14:27):

Uh, if you can tell

Luke Connery: (14:29):

Me it's proprietary. All

Drew Slocum: (14:30):

Right.

Luke Connery: (14:31):

But I can describe it for you. Um, it's, um, it's an endothermic Okay. A ablative coating in an elastomeric binder. All you gotta explain, which, which which we put onto, excuse me, uh, sheet metal. And that sheet metal can be, you know, galvanized sheet metal can be stainless steel, but you know, the endothermic piece, you know, obviously it, you know when in, in fire conditions when you have high temperatures Yeah. You know, it'll activate the chemical coating and the, the chemical reaction starts to take place and you're gonna remove heat energy from, you know, the underlying substrate in this case, the sheet metal.

Drew Slocum: (15:09):

Okay. So sucking the heat out,

Luke Connery: (15:10):

You're gonna pull the heat outta the sheet metal. The ablative piece speaks to sort of how it does that mm-hmm. . So the chemical reaction lets off, in this case it's, you know, water vapor and, uh, you know, similar to how, you know, drywall works in that same furnace test mm-hmm. , uh, or if you've ever boiled a pot of water mm-hmm. , you've seen, you know, the creation of steam. Right. I mean, think about that. What you've got is, you know, a thousand degree temperatures underneath your pot of water, but inside the pot you have water, which is gonna stay at 212 degrees. Right, cool. Relative to the underside of the pot. Right. Correct. Until all the water's gone tell,

Drew Slocum: (15:45):

And Yeah.

Luke Connery: (15:45):

Well, the BW 11 coating, and that's what we call it at, um, it's called the BW 11 coating it, um, it'll last you for up to four hours in fire testing Wow. At 2000 degrees. Wow. Yeah. And, and it'll continue to liberate water vapor and it maintains that sort of temperature, a lower temperature for the underlying steel and the ablated, oh, sorry. The, um, elastomeric binder. Look, here's the thing about fire rated duct. It's in fires. Okay. Right, right. Okay. So you have 2000 degree temperatures, what happens to metal and specifically steel. Yeah. When you heat it up to 2000 degrees, you're gonna have elongation. Yeah. You're gonna have deformation. The duct is gonna want to twist and do crazy stuff. Yeah. Uh, in the dynamic fire condition. And you want that coating to stay on the steel. And that's the elastomeric binder part. So Oh,

Drew Slocum: (16:37):

Oh, oh.

Luke Connery: (16:38):

Yeah. So once you've got the coating on there, uh, the elastomeric nature of the BW 11 coding allows it to stay there. So we talked through some of the nitty gritty there, drew. Sure. But what's important to understand is, you know, we've got UL listed, intertech listed product Yep. Where, you know, all the dynamics that go into these tests have the, the question is, have you passed the test or have you not passed the test? Right. Right. And if you can go find the listing card that talks about how to install, you know, with these listings, these duct b sort of symmetry, uh, uh, showcasing symmetry listings, duct B listings, you've successfully passed the test.

Drew Slocum: (17:19):

Gotcha.

Luke Connery: (17:20):

So that's all right. That's kind of, uh,

Drew Slocum: (17:24):

It is, it is a pretty cool coding. I mean, if, if it's on the outside of a, a duct work, I, you've probably custom color this and whatever else.

Luke Connery: (17:31):

Yeah, yeah. Um, um, Marlin's Stadium, we, we, one of the partners, Dick McCullough, he is always, always talking about, uh, one of the big projects he worked on was, um, you know, Marlin Stadium? Yeah. There's, there's smoke control system down there. It's all, you know, so all the, the flame bars installed throughout that stadium Sure. And it's all sort of Marlin's blue.

Drew Slocum: (17:51):

Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. Is it a specific paint? I was in the painting industry early on, so is a specific painting. I'm

Luke Connery: (17:57):

Sure there's some You

Drew Slocum: (17:59):

Just paint it. Do you guys paint it? Or,

Luke Connery: (18:00):

Oh, oh, oh. Um, so we don't, but it can be painted in the field and Oh, right. It's a water soluble coating. Oh, wow. So you can hit it with dry lock to keep water off of it. Sure. It can take water and it will dry off. And it does not impact the performance of the coating. You just, you don't want it to, to freeze. Uh, and if it's gonna be exposed to any of the elements, you'll want it, we can dry lock it for you. Right. So it won't take on the water so you don't have that freeze potential. Yeah. But the answer to your question is, it would get painted in the field by somebody who knows what Mar Marlin's blue looks like, . And they can go in and, and Right. You know, probably spray the duct. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (18:38):

Spray it. Yeah. That's cool. All I had a, I had a question for you here. Sure. So the, uh, you know, my experience in just being in fire protection ever since being at inspect point, getting into, involved in a lot of different areas of fire protection, um, one that was new to me was, uh, fire dampers, which, you know, I was asking you before about this, you know, there's a lot of contractors that new that do sprinkler fire alarm extinguishers, fire doors, whatever, fire dampers, its own little niche. But some contractors do fire damper inspections mm-hmm. , which in my opinion is not, it's not really being focused on that much cuz you install this big H V A C system, why aren't you, why aren't you inspecting and maintaining the duct or, you know, the duct work dampers. Yeah. Um, how does this work with dampers? Is it in a, you know, how how does that

Luke Connery: (19:35):

Explain that? So, I mean, so dampers get used, anyti dampers get used in a lot of different places. But as it pertains to fire rated duct, I mean, anytime you're transitioning from a fire rated enclosure, uh, duct being one of those enclosures, um, uh, out to non-fire rated, you would, you would separate the two with a damper. Yeah. And the idea is that in the case of a fire condition where you've got 2000 degrees again, right. And the non-fire rated component component of the duct, you know, a, a MNA a sort of minimum build mm-hmm. , you know, the, the duct that you see in most places in buildings, you know, begins to elongate, begins to deform and ends up falling away. I mean, that's the, in the hypothetical Right. You would drop that duct out of the sky. Right? Yeah. You don't want the fire or the smoke, the products of combustion to enter into that fire rated duct and spread throughout the building.

(20:31)
Yeah. It's all about keeping the fire on the floor origin of origin. Right. And so you'd have a damper there. So dampers are important to maintain sort of the integrity, um, and the continuity of these, um, you know, fire rated, uh, uh, compartments mm-hmm. . Um, so, you know, you know, the contractors that, that I deal with, um, do place a priority on accessing fire dampers fire and smoke dampers for maintenance purposes. And this, it's very important Right. Because you want them to work. Right. If they fail, or, you know, um, yeah. I mean, if they fail, then you're not gonna be able to protect your fire rated Correct. Integrity. And that's not a good thing. Right. You're gonna have a lot of, uh, um, um, you frankly, you could be exposing your fire and life safety system to the fire, which is what it's designed to prevent. Right? Right.

Drew Slocum: (21:25):

Exactly.

Luke Connery: (21:27):

So, you know, one of the applications for Flame bar, fire rated duct actually is, um, uh, um, uh, damper replacement, but we'll put that on hold for a second. We'll talk about damper relocation. Okay. So like, let's say that you had to have a damper, there's a penetration that's on like the third floor of an atrium floating in the middle of the sky. Right. You

Drew Slocum: (21:49):

Can't really get up there

Luke Connery: (21:50):

To Yeah. It's behind some kind of architectural feature. Right. And you can't get up there to service that damper location. Well, you could use flame, flame bar to basically offset that location mm-hmm. and you could, you could put it wherever it's convenient. Okay. So you might grow, you know, uh, some flame bar off the side of that riser 25 feet to a place or a compartment where you do have really easy access for that damper. Right. And you could use Flame Bar to do that.

Drew Slocum: (22:17):

Interesting. Yeah. Huh. So it could, you could use it as in congestion. It's not always just a replacement. It's

Luke Connery: (22:23):

Absolutely. That's great. So we had, I had a contractor this morning talking about clean room and exactly what we just talked about mm-hmm. because of how tight the space was behind the fire rated walls that surround the clean room, they couldn't locate a damper there and they had to basically extend it. And we talked through this and, you know, we, we can provide them with the listing cards and the justification. Oh wow. And, um, yeah, it's big news and it's pretty handy for a lot of people because it, um, again, coming back to the maintenance coming

Drew Slocum: (22:53):

Back. Yeah. I, I've always, you know, from, you know, from the, uh, get involved in the inspection, testing and maintenance of dampers. I I didn't know it was, it, it's, it's weird. It's, there's pockets where it's strong, you know, it depends on certain buildings as well. But you install these huge H V A C systems, you think you would wanna maintain them. Yeah. Obviously the heating cooling's very important. Yeah. You, you'd think that fire protection is just as important as well, so you'd maintain them. But I guess with Flame Bar, you don't need to worry about maintenance cuz it's essentially, it's eliminates some of that inspection, testing, maintenance.

Luke Connery: (23:30):

Yeah. That, I mean, that's true. That's true.

Drew Slocum: (23:32):

On

Luke Connery: (23:33):

A new, on a new, so, so here comes the damper replacement conversation. Yeah. . So like, so if you had, you know, a lot of the modern architecture will see, uh, you know, a shaft. So what does a shaft, but a separate sort of, uh, you know, fire resistance rated compartment that runs through multiple stories in a, in a, in a building mm-hmm. , well, some of these buildings have big shoulders on 'em and they get, you know, pointy and, and uh, you know, at the 50th floor. Right. Think about like downtown New York or something like that. Right. And, and then they keep going up toward the sky and then, you know, a lot of the mechanicals might be handled on the 50th floor. Right. Some of the mechanicals might keep going Sure. Keep going up. And so there might be a floor up there, maybe it's the 51st floor where a lot of the mechanicals transition from going vertical and they head horizontal Okay.

(24:22)
Uh, for that floor. And then we'll continue vertically. Yep. So what you could do is you could put dampers on, you know, the top of one of those shafts in the bottom of the, of the, the next shaft. Okay. And you could have, you know, a smack, not a minimum build connecting those two. Right. Or, you know, with the damper on either side. Right. Or you could replace those two dampers and the horizontal run with flame bar and it works the same way, huh. Yeah. So you don't need to have dampers in Sure. In, um, in certain

Drew Slocum: (24:50):

Certain

Luke Connery: (24:50):

Situations. In certain situations. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (24:53):

Huh. Um, yeah, it's very interesting. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm really glad you reached out cuz you know, there's a, a whole industry out there that I, I, I didn't know was as big as it was in the H V C side. So, um, and I guess why you haven't been at Flint, you know a lot about H V A C. You only been there a few months, . So

Luke Connery: (25:17):

It's been a, a pretty, uh, tumultuous first, uh, yeah. Right. Six months. And we've got a guy, uh, Joe Hoff, uh, university of Maryland, uh, fire Protection Engineer. I'm a, uh, WPI guy myself. Right, right. But, uh, Joe Joe's a very knowledgeable individual and I've, I've learned a lot from him. And, um, you know, I mentioned Dick earlier. Um, and then also John Patillo, who is basically our liaison back over to, uh, fire Spray International, you know, the original company who developed Flame Bar, they're over in the uk. John's pretty well plugged into all the sort of codes and standards and listings activity, you know, they're, they're a normal, I mean, we, we, you and I drew both have a research and development background mm-hmm. , they do all the r and d over there at Fire Spray International, uh, conquest is a separate entity Okay. From Fire Spray International. But we still have a meeting of the mines in terms of r and d capacity. So John's the guy. So what I'm saying is I've learned a ton in a pretty short period of time, which that's what I like to do, you know. That's good.

(26:21)
Hey, the learning piece

Drew Slocum: (26:22):

Well rounded. I mean, you know, fire protection's a big, it's niche, but it's a very big niche, you know, kind of market. So

Luke Connery: (26:29):

It's a big umbrella. Yep.

Drew Slocum: (26:30):

What, um, I guess what do you, what do you like about working there versus, you know, previous experiences? What have your experiences in the past brought you Yeah. Brought to this position, I

Luke Connery: (26:42):

Guess? Yeah. So, I mean, I'm an engineer, um, but I really enjoy the customer conversations mm-hmm. and, uh, sort of the applications perspective. So there's a lot of people out there who want to do the right thing or they want to do a thing and they don't really know how. Right. You know, so it's almost, you know, sort of consulting to the customer space, if you will. Right. Uh, and sometimes that can be consultants, sometimes that can be architects. Sure. Uh, as I mentioned everybody else, you know, GCs, mechanicals, sheet metals and everybody in between. Right. Um, even authorities having jurisdiction at this point. I mean, one of the aspects that we've got going for us in the state of Massachusetts, and it's, there's a couple other jurisdictions, I think we have a declaratory statement down in Florida as well, but, you know, the, the Board of Building Regulations and Standards in Massachusetts, uh, and then the, uh, fire Protection, fire Prevention or the F P F P committee subset of the B B R S.

(27:43)
Right. They've basically issued a clarification on code requirements as it relates to fire rated duct. Right. So what's that all about? So what I'm saying, what happened there is they, the best and brightest in this space for a year, argued over this idea of symmetry as it pertains to fire rated duct. Oh, okay. And coming out of that was, Hey, look, we've argued it. Here's what we, here's what we've decided. Yeah. You need symmetry and fire rated duct, and here's the pathway for how fire rated duct can be designed for a project. Right. And that considers alternate means and methods, it considers modifications and variances and all that. Right. Well, how do you, how do you use that? How does an engineer use that day to day? How does an architect use that day to day? How does an inspector or plans reviewer evaluate an amr, an alternate means and methods request?

(28:41)
Mm-hmm. . So that's where I come in and that's where, that's what we do out there. So we're out there educating, helping people to understand this symmetry requirement for the building code and what to look for, what are the red flags mm-hmm. , you know, what's the Complica competition gonna try to do. Sure. Uh, to again, continue the status quo. And what we're trying to do is really transform the market Yep. Um, in a positive way from a fire and life safety standpoint. Right. So that's what's most interesting in this, uh, you know, working for Conquest, uh, uh, from, from my perspective is, you know, that's the charge. That's what gets me outta bed every day. Yeah. Uh, that's what brings me to all these discussions. That's why you and I are talking . I mean, we're out here making the world a better place, drew,

Drew Slocum: (29:28):

Trying to Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you were saying, you know, uh, did a little research as well on, on Conquest and there's a, there's been, in the fire protection space, it's, it's interesting cuz you know, up until it's probably the last 10 years, but it's, it's really been, uh, active, I would say in the, on the private equity venture capitalists and just investment side in the last five years. Strong. And honestly, what, what promoted me to do a lot of the stuff here at, at Spec point. But yeah, you guys just got a, a nice, nice little private equity bump. So Yeah. They, they obviously see the, uh, the, uh, the need for, for this application, and there's a huge future in it too. So, you know, wherever, wherever you see the money going is, there's, there's potential there. And there's, you know, there's a lot of focus on it right now.

Luke Connery: (30:24):

So this was, this was a long time coming and, um, you know, frankly, you know, it, it really solidifies sort of the future for Comcast Fire Spray. And, um, yeah. So the Pacific Growth Investors or pgi, they just, um, invested 29 million in the company and that sets us up for, you know, a continued expansion across North America. So, you know, I'm picking up in Boston where others have left off mm-hmm. , but we're gonna be opening markets all across the country. And, and you know what, you know, this industry mm-hmm. , um, you have people who are working in New York or in Boston that are designing projects in Omaha. Oh yeah. And in, you know, oh, yeah. Phoenix or wherever it might be. And there's folks in Phoenix who are designing work in Boston. Right. That's just the kind of the way it works. Sure.

(31:10)
So there's already projects happening all over the country and up into Canada. Uh, but we're gonna see just a continued presence there, uh, you know, for Conquest. So we're really excited. Yeah. And, uh, I'm excited to be here at this at this point. And, um, we, we've got the right leadership in place. I mean, every day I'm involved in a discussion around, you know, how can we do better? Yeah. What can we do better? Right. What do we need to focus on? Yeah. How can we communicate better? Um, and, and, and so people who are, you know, for a company to be that sort of self-reflective, if you will, it's just a really attractive, uh, that's good.

Drew Slocum: (31:49):

Yeah. Yeah. That smaller, you know, I feel like, um, we talked about it before, but, uh, you know, sometimes those, those, those smaller teams, you know, you get feel like you, you know, been corporate up until this point, you know, point and, uh, both of us. Yeah. Both. Oh, yeah. Right. You do. So it's like, uh, you know, those smaller teams Yeah. There's, there's challenges, but you get, you can get a lot done and you can really make a big presence. Uh, well

Luke Connery: (32:18):

Impact you matter. Yeah. , like, you know, cause cause if you're not doing your job there, I like that, you know, it's, uh, everyone's gonna pull their own weight. Right. Yeah. But the, but the other side of that is you're able to kind of pivot and move pretty quickly mm-hmm. in the most effective direction. Sure. So, Jim Miller, our, our managing partner, he, uh, he, you know, one of the things you hear from him frequently is, you know, how are you gonna spend your next hour?

Drew Slocum: (32:47):

Wow. Right.

Luke Connery: (32:48):

So we're not talking about like this

Drew Slocum: (32:50):

Week, five years this week

Luke Connery: (32:51):

Or next week or next month. We're talking about like today. Yeah. Right now. What are you doing? Yeah. And, uh, it's, it's refreshing.

Drew Slocum: (32:59):

I got that in an interview one time on sidebar in here, but, uh, it was an interview question. I, I think I was asked, I forgot what it was, but what did you eat for breakfast this morning? And what did you, you know, it was this weird That's

Luke Connery: (33:15):

A tough one. Yeah, right. In

Drew Slocum: (33:16):

An interview. And I actually started using it and he actually, you know, it gives you a little sense of, of what the person's about. Yeah. And if they give some, you know, canned answer. Yeah. You know, maybe

Luke Connery: (33:28):

They're can. Yeah. The only person that's asked me that question before Drew is like my doctor. And that's right before he frowned at my answer. So , I might've answered it wrong.

Drew Slocum: (33:38):

Chocolate donuts.

Luke Connery: (33:39):

Exactly. There might have been some sausage in

Drew Slocum: (33:42):

There. Who know? Right. Uh, all right, well, yeah, I would love to talk about this more and we'll, we'll obviously bring this offline a little bit, um, in a little bit. Uh, love to learn a little bit more as you, you know, grow with the company and, and all that. Certainly. So, uh, is there anything else you want to get out? Uh, you know, I'll give your information out at the end, but No,

Luke Connery: (34:05):

No. I mean, you know, I think the biggest thing, we talked about it, you know, for fire rated duct symmetry's important, you've gotta have, um, you know, uh, uh, strong side and weak side performance. And if you're gonna have one, have the weak side performance. Yeah. Cause that, that should be sort of the, um, you know, uh, uh, if you're gonna, in terms of fire rating, you wanna take that weak side test, then use that for your overall rating. Yeah. It's not the strong side because again, you're only as strong as your weakest link. So that's the important piece there. Um, we've recently just started to look at, you know, some fan enclosures, uh, for continuity of, of ventilation systems. So, you know, previously you would've had the upstream, upstream duct fire rated, the downstream duct fire rated. But this thing in the middle, uh, towering Yeah.

(34:50)
The ventilation system, you know, maybe there's a drywall box around it or something like that. But it certainly wasn't a fire rated installation. Now we offer these fan enclosures, which, which helped for continuity and fire rating across the whole system. Sure. And those were all duct B as well. So, you know, between that, you know, grease duct applications, I mean, really if you have a fire rated duct, um, you know, sort of question or aspect of your design, we'd like to be there helping you sort of work through it. And we can help you with specifications and, uh, with your overall designs. So. Cool.

Drew Slocum: (35:25):

Well, yeah. Let's, let's keep the, the talks going. Um, we're gonna do a little quick response round now. . Oh, geez. You were a little nervous about

Luke Connery: (35:35):

This. The pressure, the pressure's.

Drew Slocum: (35:37):

Yeah. Well, it's, it's pretty quick. So we're off

Luke Connery: (35:39):

Script.

Drew Slocum: (35:40):

Yeah. Off script. Um, I pretty much ask you a question. You gotta, you gotta give your answer yes or no or, um, one or the other.

Luke Connery: (35:49):

Don't, don't. I get a don't I get one? It depends. That's what I heard on the

Drew Slocum: (35:52):

Oh, yeah, yeah. You do. I, these, this, this won't be, it depends. These are pretty straightforward,

Luke Connery: (35:57):

So, okay, here

Drew Slocum: (35:57):

We go. I know, I know. Um, a pat like this from inspect point, but, um, you know, when we were at rpi Yes. We beat you guys, I think. Yes. Uh, four years in a row while I was there. Something like

Luke Connery: (36:10):

That. Was that four years in a row? . We didn't win one of those.

Drew Slocum: (36:15):

Um, who is the better engineering school? WPI or rpi? I know, I know what you're gonna

Luke Connery: (36:21):

Say. Is this a, is this a loaded question, drew? I mean, I'm trying to be, uh, you know, polite to the host here, but, you know, take a look at, uh, I'm pretty sure I could pull some rankings, uh, that put WPI at the top of the list. But

Drew Slocum: (36:36):

Look, R RPI is not in the top of my list right now. So you can say

Luke Connery: (36:39):

Wpi. Hey, you know what, let me just say this. I'm sure we could find very talented, successful people from both schools. How about that? Is that

Drew Slocum: (36:46):

Fair? Good. Good candy answer.

Luke Connery: (36:48):

Yeah. ,

Drew Slocum: (36:51):

Um, you were saying this earlier. So what do you, I know you were involved in all the different processes of, of selling to different channels mm-hmm. , what is, what is the, this is not a quick response round, but what's it, what do you like best and what do you think is easier? Contractor engineer, hj? Hmm.

Luke Connery: (37:19):

Well, if I start, start with the engineers, I think you find the crowd of people who are most interested in staying on top of what's happening from an innovation standpoint. And, you know, this is on average because there's gonna be contractors that just heard that and are angry with me over the podcast ways. Yeah. No,

Drew Slocum: (37:40):

It's

Luke Connery: (37:40):

All right. Um, um, because I do think that there are contractors. I mean, I met one this morning for the first time who, uh, very sort of forward thinking Sure. They wanna do the right thing, you know? Yeah. And authorities having jurisdiction. I mean, the thing about AHJs is there's so few of them, and they tend to, you know, if you're working for a municipality for example, you, you, you know, there's no room to escape. Like you've got the city of Cambridge, or you've got the city of Boston, right. And everything that's happening there in your bailiwick, right? Yeah. And you, there's so many aspects to those buildings that you've gotta be knowledgeable.

Drew Slocum: (38:18):

So you got this little H V A C

Luke Connery: (38:20):

Little, you know, so, yeah. So, so, you know, in terms of, you know, who's got the hardest job? I would say definitely the AHJs for sure. Um, you know, the engineers tend to sort of pull you in and they want to embrace you, and they wanna learn more about it. I would say, uh, cuz they generally want to do the right thing and, and create the safest buildings for people. And then, you know, the, you know, the contractors, you know, the, the, the, the, the best thing about I think the contracting conversations is the timelines. Again, we're not talking two years, three years, four years. We're talking about, you know, this week, this month Yep. This project, next project. Mm-hmm. . And, um, so if you're somebody that enjoys sort of the rapid turn of events, the contracting conversation, so listen, I, I wear all hats. I have to, uh, and I've had experiences at all levels and with, you know, all these different sort of layers of the cake, so to speak. Right? Yeah. And, uh, I enjoy all of it.

Drew Slocum: (39:13):

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Um, what did you enjoy more? The T-Rex nozzle or the aesthetic sidewall?

Luke Connery: (39:26):

The old,

Drew Slocum: (39:26):

So I, I, I remember T-Rex Nozzle from our Tyco days, so Yeah. Yeah. They didn't call it that, you know, that Well,

Luke Connery: (39:32):

They, they couldn't call it that because it was, um, what, what was it? Once upon a time, so we had a

Drew Slocum: (39:38):

For explain the T-Rex now.

Luke Connery: (39:40):

Okay. All right. So, so, um, once upon a time there was a tunnel and they were looking to put a certain density of, uh, spray into that tunnel.

Drew Slocum: (39:48):

Tunnel. Speaking of tunnel, yeah. Episode four, the fire protection podcast with Mr. Workman. With Mr. Workman.

Luke Connery: (39:55):

Yeah. That was great. That was great. It really was. Um, so sim similar to probably some of Martin's experiences. Um, you know, basically over in, um, uh, I think it was Norway, definitely one of the Nordic countries, they had done some work and basically they took the Tyco s SW 20 or 24 sprinkler removed the bulb and said, yep, this is the spray performance we're looking for. We just need it bigger so we could have less. Yeah. You know, the orifice could be bigger so we could have lesser or lower pressures. And so what happened was they, that engineer, um, literally took the s sw 20 or 24, put it on the photocopier, pressed the scale up button a bunch of times, , and then reversed engineered, right? Oh wow. This nozzle. And it was a monstrosity. Okay. Okay. And it was a, a terrible performer in terms of spray performance. And so that was the T-Rex nozzle, right. And that's when they came back to Tyco, and now that's Johnson Controls. And they said, Hey, can you guys help us to develop, uh, purpose built nozzle that does what we want it to do? Sure. And that set the stage for what is now known as the tn TN 25 nozzle.

Drew Slocum: (41:09):

One of the TX is a great name,

Luke Connery: (41:11):

Tn, you know, tunnel nozzle, K factor 25. I mean, come on,

Drew Slocum: (41:16):

You know, Raven, everybody's raving about Raven. That was great. So

Luke Connery: (41:20):

The Raven Studio was, that's the aesthetic side wall. So that was a fun project because it was the sort of the first, you know, paint and place, um, uh, sprinkler. Um, you know, that was so, so again, I can't pick favorites between the two. They were both enjoyable projects. Yeah. , one of 'em had bigger fires. So I will say that Okay, the tunnel fires are bigger and that's always more fun. Those are always fun. So,

Drew Slocum: (41:45):

Um, last question here. Uh, so this is, we're gonna be doing, you'll be at N FPA a and so Will in Spec Point

Luke Connery: (41:53):

San Antonio. Yep.

Drew Slocum: (41:54):

Yep. So that should be fun. Um, great town as well. But we're, I'm, I'm gonna try, try to do a live podcast on, on sprinkler, but dry pipe systems specifically. Mm. Uh, getting somebody from an air compressor company, somebody from a nitrogen company, somebody from an engineer, somebody from a, a contractor's point of view. And then myself, we're gonna, we're gonna duke it out in a room round

Luke Connery: (42:20):

Table. Yeah, that's a, that's a cool

Drew Slocum: (42:22):

Idea. Cause you only get, you know, the podcast and, and certain other presentations you only get sometimes one viewpoint. Mm-hmm. . So let's, let's duke it out. What is your, uh, experience in dry pipe systems? I know you got, you're heavily in sprinkler. Yeah. What is your opinion of the whole nitrogen wave, I guess?

Luke Connery: (42:43):

Yeah. This is from a, uh, a corrosion resistant Yeah, yeah. Standpoint. I mean, to be honest with you, um, I'm not up to speed on the latest with these nitrogen systems, and I think they were being used for a couple different things. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (42:56):

They're, yeah,

Luke Connery: (42:57):

They're pretty cool. Um, you know, I think, I think innovation is important in every industry. Mm-hmm. , because I think without innovation, you industries die. Yeah. And I think that, um, while we are a heavily sort of regulated industry, and I think that, um, you know, uh, there, there are a lot of, a lot of momentum. There's a lot of forces, externalities sort of holding back from doing sort of radically different approaches on technologies. I think it's important. I think, I think our industry and, and, uh, is, is is, uh, slowly but surely, you know, evolving mm-hmm. , uh, in some parts, you know, faster than in other parts. And I think suppression and the related systems that go into these suppression systems, uh, is right there with it. Right. And I think there, there's an acceleration that's happening right now. Oh, yeah. You know, where I think things are finally, you know, when you look at, look at what we've done with cell phones in the same period of time.

(44:01)
Yeah. Where, you know, we, we've all been around suppression systems for 20 years or so. Right, right. Right. I mean, look back 20 years when cell phones, like, you know, I think they start, started to first exist about 20 years ago. 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago. Right. Well, you know, and then look at the sprinkler systems and the extinguishers. I mean, there, there's some, so, so I think it's important. Um, so I know I'm not commenting directly on nitrogen as it pertains to dry pipe systems, but, um, I'm glad to see that there's some new technologies

Drew Slocum: (44:27):

No, I do, I do

Luke Connery: (44:28):

Too. That are coming into the fold.

Drew Slocum: (44:29):

Yeah. You gotta, you kind gotta mix it up. And tech, and same thing with, you know, the mobile technologies iot stuff coming out. It's, something's gotta change.

Luke Connery: (44:40):

I mean, in spec point, I mean, what a tremendous, uh, platform as, um, you know, particularly for, you know, the road ahead where everything's becoming

Drew Slocum: (44:48):

Smart Yeah.

Luke Connery: (44:50):

Including suppression systems. Right. And probably on the passive side as well.

Drew Slocum: (44:54):

Sure. H V Cs are already smart

Luke Connery: (44:56):

And every, if everything Yeah, that's a good point. All these, these building systems connection. Yeah. It, and it's getting, I mean, they're, they all touch Yeah. At some point. Yeah. And it's just a matter of time until they become a part of the big, uh, you know, one big picture. Right. And, um, a platform like inspect point, uh, with the ability to sort of tie it all together mm-hmm. and, um, you know, you know, with the primary charge being, Hey, let's make sure these systems work the way they were designed. Right. Because the smarter the system, the more complex the system. Correct. And the more failure points. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. And so, you know, I think proactive, you know, inspection of maintenance is, is critical.

Drew Slocum: (45:33):

Yeah. No, that, that's, we'll get into it in n FPA about the dry pipe. It is gonna be fun. I, I'll, I'll get some boxing gloves out. Yeah.

Luke Connery: (45:42):

Well, I'll, I'll try to find you guys and, and see what I can do to distract you while you're trying to record your podcast. That's fine. It's gonna be good to sort of catch up with everybody.

Drew Slocum: (45:50):

No, it'll be good. Yeah. It's, uh, it's exciting. Well, um, yeah, that's, that's all I got. You did. You did well. So, uh, on the quick response round, ,

Luke Connery: (46:00):

Appreciate it.

Drew Slocum: (46:01):

But, uh, thanks again, uh, for joining. Thank you. Where can people find you? Find, uh, conquest Flame Bar, you know. Yeah.

Luke Connery: (46:11):

Social Media channel. So channel, so if you take a, you know, a quick Google search, conquest fire spray.com, um, you know, uh, email. I could be reached at l [email protected]. Can I give a phone number out on a podcast? Is that not smart? I don't, I don't. It's on my LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, Luke Connery, and, uh, my phone number is (508) 884-6959. I don't care. Give a call. I'm always willing to chat.

Drew Slocum: (46:43):

Uh, thanks again. This is, this is fun. We'll, uh, I guess we'll see each other at N F P A and

Luke Connery: (46:48):

Have a drink or two. Yeah man, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. Yeah. Thanks Drew.

Drew Slocum: (46:52):

See ya.

Drew Slocum: (46:53):

Thanks for tuning in to episode 7 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Want to again, thank Luke Connery for joining me on today's podcast to give a different direction of fire protection from the H V A C side of things and Fire re ducting upcoming here in a few weeks. Uh, in Spec Point and the Fire Protection Podcast, we're gonna be live at N F P A out in San Antonio, Texas from June 17th through the 19th. So please stop by our booth. We'll have some inspect point, uh, swag to give away, as well as we will be doing a live podcast out there as well. So, um, stop on out if you are in the, uh, Texas San Antonio area, and make sure to subscribe.

EP4.2 - Drew talks with Martin Workman, VP of Product Management at Viking, about his involvement in tunnel fire protection. Martin also explains his involvement on a variety of NFPA committees. Foam fire protection is discussed in part 2 of the interview. Recently there have been some changes to foam protection in NFPA and with a bunch of new products.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode six part two of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. We continue our talks with Martin Workman of the Viking Corporation. In part one, we discuss tunnel fire protection and part two we get into more depth on foam fire protection, some of the consolidation in the N F P A committees and new products coming to the market. So tune in and enjoy it. Thanks. Transitioning kind of away from tunnels, I know we can talk a lot about that. Um, you guys at Viking or you specifically, what, what N F P A committees do you actually sit on?

Martin Workman: (00:50):

Uh, I sit on, um, sit on a discharge committee for 13. That's basically, um, you know, chapter, well, it's, well, I'll use an old standard cuz nobody's, I don't think anybody's moved to the 19 yet. But it's, it's, uh, you know, basically chapter 11, which is, uh, you know, occupancy, uh, hazard design through, uh, 22. Uh, so that's just one portion of, of 13. When somebody says they set on 13, you, you really need to ask what committee they're on. Right. They may be on hanging bracing and if they're on hanging and bracing and you're asking a hydraulics question, I dunno, he's not the right guy.

Drew Slocum: (01:25):

,

Martin Workman: (01:26):

Right? He could be, but he he could be. But, but, but at least, you know, find out where he is at. Yeah. Uh, I sit on N FPA 11. Um, that's the, that's the foam standard. Um, one, one of the, probably one of the biggest changes for NFPA 11 is NFP 16, which was a standalone standard for foam water sprinkler systems. Um, uh, is moving to 11, actually NFA 11 and part of its scope excluded anything to do with sprinklers. Oh. Um, and just, you know, through the years there was so much duplication from NFP 11 in 16, uh, into 16. It's like, why don't, why don't, uh, and there was, there was a vote and, and, uh, you know, it was overwhelming just to put it into 11. And what happens typically with that is if you were sitting on 16, it just no longer exists. Um, and you can, you can apply to a standard. Um, so, so anybody that was on 16, free to apply to 11, if there's space. Um, and, you know, I'm assuming there's going to be some spots, um, that, uh, that you would still be understand. When

Drew Slocum: (02:31):

Is, uh, when is that occurring? When's, when's that combination?

Martin Workman: (02:35):

Uh, it's actually this cycle. Oh, wow. Wow. Was NFP 11. NFP 11 is in cycle. Um, and, uh, there was, uh, there was a task group set up. Uh, basically it was, it was a one man task group and, uh, a couple of vol volunteered just to, just to kind of review, uh, his work to, to, um, put, uh, you know, to to, to bring the standard together. And he did a real nice job of it. Um, so, so I think that'll go through with some, uh, maybe, maybe minor modifications. Um, so anyway, NFP 11 getting off track here. 30. That's great.

Drew Slocum: (03:11):

30,

Martin Workman: (03:12):

Yep. Yeah, yeah. Which is in cycle, this, this bill around as well. Um, N FPA four 18, which is helipads, um, 4 0 9, which is aircraft hangers, and one with 4 0 9. Um, you're also on, uh, NFPA four 15, which is, uh, uh, air Airport terminals. Um, which everybody always guesses the hazard wrong. They're actually ordinary hazard, not light hazard. Right,

Drew Slocum: (03:42):

Right.

Martin Workman: (03:42):

Uh, I just, just thought I'd throw that in there just a, we're

Drew Slocum: (03:45):

Off. No, that's good. There's a lot of, uh,

Martin Workman: (03:46):

A learning moment for folks. You, yeah. Yeah. And then, and then, uh, uh, NFPA 4 23. So, um, you know, those are the set of the standards that I set on. Um, and they're all, they're all, they're all fire protection related, you know, for, for me, that's my, my value. I don't, you know, .

Drew Slocum: (04:05):

Wow. That's a lot of standards to sit on though. That's a lot of travel meetings for, for sure.

Martin Workman: (04:10):

Yeah. Yeah. At some point, uh, I'm gonna, I'm, now that I'm getting a little older, I'm gonna, I'm gonna transition off. I have, uh, I have great alternates on, on some of these committees. That's great. So, uh, uh, I'm sure, I'm sure people are done. You know, they're, they're tired of hearing from me. They can hear from somebody else for a while. .

Drew Slocum: (04:30):

That's great. Uh, four oh, nine's a, a big one. I know. Uh, you know, that's, you know, the, the aircraft hangers. And it's funny, uh, your, your pal Jim Dooley, or I guess our pal Jim Dooley, just, uh, posted something today about, um, US Navy awarding, uh, a contract, a 20 million contract for, for some facilities in the Pacific, I guess burn burns and McDonald's. Something, uh, must, must be a contract. Um, but

Martin Workman: (04:59):

Right.

Drew Slocum: (05:00):

But yeah. Yeah. But right on the site, there's a great nozzle. The, the on on the post, there's a big great nozzle there. So

Martin Workman: (05:07):

Yeah, the, the, the military's been, um, uh, relatively active and I, I'm gonna say for probably the last 20 years of, of upgrading their facilities, they're, they're receiving new aircraft. Uh, so they have, they have new, uh, kind of service demands, um, for their, for their hangers. And, um, the, the, the great nozzle was actually something that was, that was invented by the US Navy. Uh, a gentleman by the name of Joe Gott, um, Joe Simon Bob tab. Uh, after the NIST testing, uh, there's a great deal of NIST testing to learn about aircraft hangers, cuz there really hadn't been, uh, a lot of science, uh, behind aircraft hangers. Uh, and this testing was, um, in the early nineties, uh, where they tested big hangers and kovic Iceland and, and Honolulu, Hawaii did a lot of testing with detection to see what worked and what didn't.

(06:03)
Did a lot of testing with sprinklers, found out which ones operated and which ones didn't. And that was quite a surprise. Um, and then the best way to apply foam and, uh, through there, through all their kind of development and findings, um, you know, they, they, they, what they really wanted was to apply foam at the floor, cuz that's where the spill was at. So they, they had this idea and, um, probably one of the luckier moments of my life, you've mentioned a gentleman by the name of Jim Dooley. Uh, we were, we were meeting with the US Navy and I'm sure we were gonna tell them about deluge valves or something of that nature. And we met with, uh, uh, Mr. Joe got, and he explained what he was looking at and I kind of, kind of drew something and said, well, you know, what about that?

(06:55)
And wow. He said, yeah, that looks pretty good. So this all went away though. Um, cuz they, they had, they had engaged, uh, a firm to develop something for 'em. So it's like, oh, okay. Uh, and I mean, a professional engineering firm, and, you know, at the end of the day, they could, they could get something, but it wasn't, it wasn't a manufacturer, uh, product. And we just happened to be lucky. They, they had a little bit of money and we're talking, very little money left, but said, Hey, could, and they contacted a gentleman here at Viking, uh, and said, could you could, could you go with this idea and developed something? And, um, you know, one of the fellows that developed, it's still at Viking. Oh wow. . Um, and he was a young guy at the time, but here we go, we've got this product.

(07:41)
And they said, well, good, we want to go test the UL with it. And all we had were plastic prototypes. Huh. So, so, so some of the pressure limitations when we were doing the testing and the testing was really, could it spread foam over an area and not only could it spread foam, what happened if it was, if they were obstructed? So, so we were working on different pressures, flows, and literally obstructions in front of the nozzles. And it was a, um, two days of testing. Uh, we built, um, kinda a raised platform. Um, we did, and the Navy paid for it. We just came down with a, a bunch of foam and stuff. And, um, so after we had the, the, the nozzle spacing set, uh, which was 50 foot on center, that was, you know, they, they felt that was, um, you know, they wouldn't be spending too much on drainage, but it would be adequate.

(08:30)
So we had to, we had to cover that gap. And what we found is if we got any farther apart than 25 foot within a trench, obstructions became an issue. But if you were 25 foot on center, you could literally park over top of one of 'em. Wow. And it really didn't matter. You just built up back pressure around the other ones and it would cover it. And, um, during the time that we were doing it, we were, we had a kind of a trailer, um, set up to where, you know, we could, we could operate, um, the system. Uh, we did it through a, through a flow control valve that had some regulating trim on it. And we were literally opening and closing the valve through a, through an emergency release.

(09:10)
Wow. It was funny cause the guys from the Navy walked over and they said, that's pretty cool. Oh yeah. It's, well, we use it here and there, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, well, we'd like to use it. Okay. So we just helped them. Yeah. You know, write a standard around that type of valve. There's, there's other valves that do it. Ours, you know, obviously we, we've, uh, we provided quite a few of them, uh, to the military. But the idea is if they have an inadvertent operation and with low expansion foam, it's not quite as, um, not quite the event that high expansion foam is, but Oh, yeah. Um, if they, if they have an activation, you can push on this stop button. I always called it a post operation Abort. Yep. Um, but the, uh, but the Navy didn't like that. And I said, it's really just a stop button, Martin. Okay. It's probably just a stop button . Uh, but it, but it stops the foam and, you know, and allows somebody to, you know, take care of maybe what a, what the problem is or because it's a dead man abort if there's a real fire and somebody's, you know, trying to, it was a case of arson, sooner or later you'd let go of that button.

Drew Slocum: (10:15):

Oh yeah, you gotta activate it.

Martin Workman: (10:17):

Mm-hmm. . So yeah. So that's kind of how the development of the, the great nozzle came along. And, um, you know, it's something that, uh, you know, the, you know, we provide, uh, you know, you know, through the military, which is, which is great. Uh, and also, um, you know, other, you know, private, oh, call

Drew Slocum: (10:38):

Public airlines. You know what? Private airlines, it's interesting, it's interesting. It's not used in more the, you know, I, I see it definitely very beneficial in, in the Navy and the government aspect. But, you know, I've been involved in a few foam systems where accidental discharge, you know, without a, an abort switch, without a, an an off style valve, you know, you're ruining a a 25 million plane. Like, you think that that would go into some of the design of, you know, high expansion's, great at putting out fires. But I mean, if, if you can get, uh, a very similar protection or better protection, uh, with the, the risk being a lot less, you think that would be, uh, used more, you know?

Martin Workman: (11:21):

Well, uh, part of it is, uh, it's, it's, it's looked at somewhat exotic because we don't, uh, you know, in our normal day in and day out activities, we don't, we don't think of systems supplying water or foam, um, as any kind of shutoff. Um, you know, we, we buy fire pumps that, that run till their destruction. You know, we do things like, we have these long, long water supplies. Um, so I, I think in most cases it's, it's one, um, it's, it's not in the norm. And secondly, it's, it's somewhat unknown that it can be done. Right. Um, you know, so I, I think that's where, but when, you know, obviously, um, I I I almost think it's, it's almost like a word of mouth thing. If somebody did it on one hanger, they go, Hey, that's really neat. Can do you guys want it?

(12:11)
And, and that's sometimes that's been in introduced to us, uh, that way where somebody's called and, you know, it could be a consulting engineer or maybe even an end users. Do you have one of those systems that Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, we do. Let me show you how it works and things of that nature. So, but um, yeah, so I, I guess we, we kinda went a, a couple of different directions here. Uh, when we, when we do move to foam, one of the things that I, I at least want to get out is, um, with all the environmental, um, conversation about foam today. Um, you know, we, we definitely want people to be, um, you know, conscious of, you know, how they're using it. Uh, you know, in the old days people used to do commissioning tests and, you know, have fields full of foam and take photos and wasn't that great.

(13:04)
Uh, we have to be a lot more responsible about it today and capturing it. Yeah. The majority of the majority of foam that was ever put on the ground was through, through, uh, you know, basically testing where Right. Or training. It was through training. And, uh, and everybody kind of knows that. I mean, there's a high density usually around airports, but they do a lot of crash and roll testing. Yep. I mean, , so, I mean, um, so, so it's important to just be, uh, very responsible about it. Um, there's methods of, of doing clean proportioning, uh, to where you really, the only time you use foam is in a fire. And, uh, and that's really when it, when it should be used. Right. So I just kind of wanted to get that out. I know that, uh, uh, some, some people are very sensitive to it, other people aren't aware that there, there could be an issue. Um, and, and it can affect, you know, it can affect your, your job costs. If you're bid a job and you don't figure on capturing all this foam discharge, it's expensive to discharge. It's no longer the case of just putting it over on the gravel field or, or, or, well, at least it shouldn't be. I don't think so. .

Drew Slocum: (14:13):

Right, right. Yeah. I, I remember designing some, some diesel foam generator backups and, and New York City, and, you know, after that test, you would have to get that foam out from the 20th floor. So how do you do that? You know, how do you, how do you get all that foam discharge out of there? So, you know, I worked with some engineers to put in even, you know, dedicated drain risers for that. Um, you know, it was, you know, the, the discharge and testing a foam is, it's, it's been a hot topic with, you know, up, up in upstate New York, there was a, uh, Newburg, New York, uh, Stewart Airbase up there. They're being, I think the government's being sued because of all the foam testing they did at that base, um, ended up getting into the water supply. And I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of different directions that let litigations going, but it it's definitely in the news and it's being highlighted. So

Martin Workman: (15:14):

Yeah. And it's, it's really just, it's just more of an awareness thing. Um, and a a lot of times foam is exotic to, to, to a lot of folks, they've never done it before. They come up with a project, uh, with it. There's just a a lot of things to, to know. Um, and I couldn't encourage people more to call y you know, the, the, the phone provider that they're using. Um, there's, there's several throughout the us. Uh, and they're, they're, they're more than helpful in telling you, you know, the how to do things, um, and some of the special things that you need on a job, um, that maybe you wouldn't normally use. Um, so, you know, in that case, I just, you know, just kind of want to throw that out there. Um, but, uh, that's kind of, kind of, kind of where we're at with that product. I wanted to just kind give you the full history

Drew Slocum: (16:03):

. Is there, is there anything else on the Viking side? I know you have a lot of different, different hats is I want to give you a chance to, I know the, the heli heliport nozzle just came out. If there's anything else you wanna chat about, um, Vikings always constantly coming out things.

Martin Workman: (16:18):

So yeah, the, the, the pad nozzles is, is basically, you know, the great nozzle where we've, uh, developed a different receiver to actually place, place a nozzle in the center of a, uh, of a, of a helipad. Normally what we wanna do is we wanna, um, install on the perimeter and just, you know, discharge the foam into the, uh, into the helipad. But sometimes the helipads get so large, um, you know, the distance is too great, so you, so you literally have to install something, um, within the, uh, helipad. And, uh, and that was something that we, uh, we released it earlier in the year, and it was kind of something that was bubbling at Viking for, for, for quite a few, few years thinking about doing it. Just, we didn't really didn't have time. So, um, Bob Kun, who's our, uh, home product manager, uh, it was kind of his first, first charge.

(17:10)
His first effort was to, uh, to bring that to market and, uh, happened pretty quick. I was happy about that. Uh, and, uh, it, it just, it just kind of, it solves some problems, uh, in, in helipads because the, the way they're being protected today, if you follow the FAA rules, it's, it's pretty difficult to, to meet everything, um, with anything above the plane of the, uh, the helipads. So, huh uh, it kind of knocks out oscillating monitors. Um, a lot of folks have been using Elkhart nozzles for years. Oh. Those are usually piped away from the away from the pad and, and discharging in. And, um, and it, it is, there's just, uh, there's some difficulties with helipads that you wouldn't normally encounter. Uh, interesting. And so, so this kind of, this kind of, um, kind of solve a real Ill, um, but there's gotta be, you gotta do future planning for it, you know, you've gotta know that you're gonna put one in it .

Drew Slocum: (18:09):

Right, right.

Martin Workman: (18:10):

Yeah. Yeah. You can't come up at the last minute. It's like, it's like adding a PIV after the underground's buried, huh? . We gotta we gotta dig it back up, huh?

Drew Slocum: (18:22):

Get the excavator out. Um, all right. Any, anything else? Uh, I mean, I, I, we could go off in the sprinkler direction, maybe do another podcast with somebody else, or, or yourself from Viking, but, uh, if you wanna plug anything, go away, you know.

Martin Workman: (18:39):

No, no. We should, we should probably just leave it on point here. Uh, if we, if we have another op opportunity to, to, uh, to join your podcast, then, uh, then we can, uh, we can talk about some sprinkler developments. Um, you know, basically the industry's working on, um, and you know, that, that we're obviously participating in. But, uh, but today we should probably leave it to like, tunnels and transportation and specialty valves and things of that nature.

Drew Slocum: (19:06):

Great. Great. Well, uh, before we end here, I I, I've been doing this, the first few podcasts, uh, is something called the, uh, quick response round. And essentially it's just asking you a few, uh, lightning round questions, I guess, and just, uh, just kind of your opinions on a few things. Just quick answer. Um, and we'll, uh, we'll get kicking here, so,

Martin Workman: (19:31):

Okay.

Drew Slocum: (19:31):

Okay. Um, travel to Europe or Asia, what do you prefer?

Martin Workman: (19:38):

Ah, boy, that's a tough one. , uh, um, uh, probably Europe. It's, uh, it's, it's only an eight hour flight. ,

Drew Slocum: (19:48):

Ah, . Good, good reason. I'm sure, um, some, somebody mentioned, uh, uh, a trip to South Africa, and if you would ever go back to South Africa.

Martin Workman: (20:01):

Um, actually I've been there, I've been there three times. One time they didn't let me into the country. I probably believe that's the story you're talking about. I

Drew Slocum: (20:08):

Didn't,

Martin Workman: (20:08):

Yeah, I, I was, I was, I was, uh, a relatively naive traveler, I guess, and didn't know that I needed two blank pages facing each other to have the, the Visa sticker applied, uh, that, that time to fly to South Africa. So I flew to South Africa, I was on the ground for 30 minutes. They put me in the same airplane, in the same seat, and flew me back to Amsterdam, which flew me back to Detroit. Oh, no, not to Grand Rapids. Not to Grand Rapids where I live, but to Detroit. So then I had to rent a car. I get home and then, uh, you know, basically, um, kind of wonder what happened for the last three or four days, . But, uh, but I, but I, but I've been there since. And the people are very friendly, very nice. Um, it's always disappointing not to, not to make your appointment. So that, that's one of those that probably bothers me more, more for not making the appointment than, uh, than the wasted weekend of travel .

Drew Slocum: (21:06):

Right, right. Yeah. Uh, that's funny. Um, uh, deep sea fishing or fishing in Lake Michigan,

Martin Workman: (21:16):

Uh, for me, lake Michigan. Cause if you fall in the water, you can drink it. .

Drew Slocum: (21:23):

All right. All right. Um, couple more here. Uh, founders Bells or Bud Light?

Martin Workman: (21:33):

Uh, probably Bud Light.

Drew Slocum: (21:34):

Bud Light. Okay. All right.

Martin Workman: (21:36):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, the, those, the others are okay. But I'm only good for about one of those , you know, . I'm more, more of a Coors Light guy that, that, that I can really work the quantity up. So ,

Drew Slocum: (21:53):

You can gauge how many you can have . That's right. Uh, one more here. Um, and I'll, I'll get in on a future podcast with this, uh, nitrogen or compressed air. I know it's all, it's gonna be, it depends, but I know there's a big, uh, well discussion that

Martin Workman: (22:12):

Not, well, today, there's, today there's three, three choices in drying or corrosion. Oh. The other one they've got, they've got a dry air pack, which, uh, I've always been a big supporter of that nitrogen, uh, which is, you know, it's been on, you know, been in the market now probably for about seven years. Um, and, uh, and the, the guys that manufacture have made some great strides in, in education. Uh, there's definitely a place for that. And then, um, and recently, last year and a half or so, two years, uh, a vacuum system, and they're all aimed at corrosion. Um, and they, they all have, they, they all, they're all real strong products. Um, I would, I would say I, I'm not sure that I, I have a preference. I, I do have applications. I have application preference, so, so I'm not a guy that says, oh, I hate nitrogen, or I hate dry air packs, or I hate vacuum.

(23:09)
I'd say I love dry air packs in a freezer. There's no reason ever to use nitrogen. Um, I, you know, I look at nitrogen in areas like, um, hot and cold aisles and server rooms. It's like, you know, that's a perfect application for it. High value, um, you know, high probability of moisture. The way the generator guys have set it up to where it's always venting, it's always drying. Um, if you have a correctly installed system, it really solves a problem. And then, you know, then we have, we have vacuum, which, which is, um, kind of an anywhere you want it type of system. Um, you know, with the exception that, that you have limitations on the types of sprinklers. Currently there's a K 25 upright that's approved for it. Um, then we just passed the approval for K five six and K 8.0. So, so, so it does have its limitations as far as, uh, product choice. So, so again, there's, you know, I, as far as which one I like the best, it depends, depends on what I'm looking at, you know, , so, right. So, and they're all, they're all strong products. I, uh, I don't really have anything super negative to say about it. I try to dispel, there's a few myths about each one, and I try to just dispel 'em, um, you know, maybe, maybe at the manufacturer's, uh, chagrin. But, um, you know, they, they, they're, they're all very beneficial.

Drew Slocum: (24:32):

No, no, I think that's, uh, I would love to get in, in deep with that more from, uh, either have, obviously the professionals in, uh, the manufacturer of those, or somebody that's kind of in the middle of all, all three of those. So, um, yeah, it's great. Well, uh, Martin, I appreciate the time. This has been great. I know we, uh, we definitely went a little long and we kind of covered two topics on tunnels and then even on the, the foam side of things. So it was, it was great. And I definitely appreciate you being on.

Martin Workman: (25:04):

Okay. Well, hey, thanks for having me, drew. And, uh, you know, let me, let me know when, uh, when you need me again, buddy.

Drew Slocum: (25:10):

Yeah, sounds good.

Martin Workman: (25:11):

Okay. Thanks a lot.

Drew Slocum: (25:13):

Take care. That does it for episode six of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I really want to thank Martin Workman. Martin has been a mentor to me in the industry for years, and I'm sure he will for years to come. And I want to thank everybody out there for tuning in and supporting the Fire Protection Podcast. We're really looking forward to doing more interviews like this. So please follow us on all the social media channels and see you soon.

In the wake of the tragedy in Paris, France, Drew talks with Patrick Bowe, of Abco Peerless Sprinkler Company. Patrick was heavily involved in the design, coordination and installation of the water mist system protecting St Patrick's Cathedral in New York City. Historical landmarks and the fire protection designs around them are discussed.

Full Episode

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode five of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today my guest is Patrick Bowe , Vice President of Apco Peerless Sprinkler in New York. Today we discuss the Notre Dame fire. We discussed water mist. Patrick and Apco was heavily involved in St. Patrick's Cathedral's automatic suppression and protection system. I had worked on the project initially back in the day, and I believe Apco Peerless went on to actually do the, uh, install there. So we discussed water miss, we discussed the Notre Dame fire, and, you know, just historical landmarks in general. So hope you enjoy the podcast. I know it's a very touchy topic over the last week or so, but hope you enjoy and be sure to subscribe. Thanks, Pat, for coming on. Um, lot to lot to discuss. You know, uh, I've known you for how many years have I known you?

Patrick Bowe: (01:11):

12 or 13, I think.

Drew Slocum: (01:13):

. Yes.

Patrick Bowe: (01:14):

It's been a

Drew Slocum: (01:15):

While. It's been a while. Yeah. I think you were with, uh, JB and B or a kf one of those when we

Patrick Bowe: (01:21):

First met. Yeah. When we first met.

Drew Slocum: (01:23):

But, um, I know you've got your own, your own thing with Apco Peerless now, and, uh, that's obviously going really well. We'll get into that toward the end. But, um, yeah, I wanted to to chat about with you about the, the fire from, from last week, the Notre Dame fire over in, over in Paris, France. Sure. Quite the, uh, quite a tragedy. Everybody's, you know, it's on the, any big fires on the top of every, any newsfeed, obviously, and that one being very historic. So, um, you know, anything, you know, anything about it. I mean, obviously there's a lot of articles about the fire and Yes. How it started and all that.

Patrick Bowe: (02:00):

So, um, I've been, you know, kind of keeping, uh, keeping my eye on, on, uh, media outlets and stuff, uh, regarding the fire. Um, it sounds like, uh, the, the fire was electric, uh, was electrically based. Um, you know, my, my first suspicion about it was that it was, uh, had to do with the renovation work, and I think it may have had something to do with the renovation work they were doing there. Yeah. Um, but it's really, uh, you know, it's really a tragedy. I, you know, uh, you see so many of these fires. There was actually a fire in a, uh, synagogue in Brooklyn the day after. Oh, really? Um, the day after Notre Dame fire, or maybe two days after that got, you know, uh, very little press, uh, except in some New York, uh, media outlets. Um, but it, you know, it, it continues to reinforce this, this idea that, um, these historical that, uh, we have in, you know, Notre Dame.

(03:04)
Notre Dame is over 800 years old. Right. Uh, that, you know, we we're still not really, um, protecting them the way that, uh, that really they should be protected. Um, you know, it's a priceless, it's a priceless building. There's priceless artifacts in there. And, um, you know, the fact that that building made it through, uh, the French Revolution Oh, yeah. And, uh, world War I and World War II without, it's crazy, getting any damage Right. Is really unbelievable. And then there's this small renovation, what, what I would consider small, I think it was a six or $7 million renovation. Um, and it, and it destroyed, you know, the majority of, of the church. And it's really, like I said, it's, uh, you know, it reinforces this idea that, you know, I think there should be, uh, some, obviously some more thought put into, uh, the replaceability of these places. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, obviously a, a building that, that kind of occupancy now, you know, in the I BBC would never be able to be built without, uh, some sort of automatic fire protection. So it's, uh, it's an interesting topic that comes, really only comes around when, when something bad happens. Tragedy.

Drew Slocum: (04:23):

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Bowe: (04:23):

But, um, it should be, you know, something that's a little bit more top of mind in my, in my opinion.

Drew Slocum: (04:29):

Yeah. And this is, you know, us talking about this, this'll just get the message out there, hopefully a little more. And, you know, there was a, obviously a bunch of issues with, with, uh, what happened over there, and they, it just came and snowballed into one. But, um, I hear they even have, you know, obviously it was, they called it the forest. There was a lot of old timber 800 years old that dried out over 800 years. So it's, so, it's, uh, it's very flammable and very combustible. Um, but I guess I read something the other day in the New York Times about, um, that the, the wood was so dry after the firefighters, and I guess they had some pretty cool firefighting equipment. They even had this robot that came in and called Colossus.

Patrick Bowe: (05:12):

I did see that Colossus

Drew Slocum: (05:13):

Or something, which is pretty cool. I mean, at least there's a little positive about that and showing some, some light on the firefighting side. But they put so much water into that forest area where all the wood was that it soaked up all that water, and now they're having structural issues. So,

Patrick Bowe: (05:30):

Yeah, I mean, I think over the next couple week, uh, weeks, you're gonna hear about, um, you know, uh, studies being done structurally in that building. You know, there, uh, I also read something kind of early on that they were concerned about the stone after it got heated up, that it would've lost, um, you know, some of its strength. So you're gonna be hearing about this kind of stuff, I would say probably for the next six months. And then, um, you know, just finding material to, to rebuild this, uh, this church is gonna be tough, you know? Yeah. I, they can, you know, find construction material to do it. But, um, I read an article saying that, uh, the trees that were, uh, were used to build that portion of the church, they're not even available in France anymore.

Drew Slocum: (06:19):

Wow. Wow.

Patrick Bowe: (06:20):

Yes. So, you know, then we're talking about, you know, putting structural steel in or something like that, where, um, you know, now it's, now it's not the church that it used to be. Yeah. So, I, you know, I think there's gonna be a lot of debate about how it gets rebuilt. Um, you know, I know a lot of money has come in to rebuild it, but I, I wouldn't be surprised if we were talking about some of this stuff 10 years from now, because I think it's gonna take a very long time for people to make decisions and then to actually physically do the, uh, the reconstruction.

Drew Slocum: (06:52):

Yeah. It's gonna be tough. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people, a lot of money involved, obviously. But, um, yeah, so on, you know, I, I had for listeners not out there, uh, pat, pat and I go a long way back, but I, I know, and we kind of worked on a similar project back, uh, I don't know, I don't know, five, 10 years ago at this point. But, um, you know, uh, uh, at Patrick's company, APCO Peerless, uh, they work on a lot of different things out there, um, a lot in the special hazard realm, which, which kind of, kind of brings up the topic of, of this historical fire. Um, they, uh, they did the renovation for St. Patrick's Cathedral. Um, and there's been a lot of other cathedrals around the us. Uh, Oliver Fire, Oliver Fire did one, uh, the, the Philadelphia Congressional, um, cathedral, and they just did a big, I don't know if you saw that, pat. They did, uh, um, yeah, I did

Patrick Bowe: (07:45):

See that.

Drew Slocum: (07:45):

It was pretty cool. They did the actual, um,

Patrick Bowe: (07:48):

Discharge test.

Drew Slocum: (07:49):

Yeah. I reached out to the guys at Oliver, and they sent me some stuff on the, the discharge test, um, just to, just to kind of promote, it's a, it's a big week, obviously, it's a big holy week, so, hey, let's, uh, let's put this out there that, you know, we're protected. And, um, I don't, I don't know when that retrofit happened, but, um,

Patrick Bowe: (08:10):

Yeah, I'm not sure. I would assume probably within the last five or 10 years would be my guess. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (08:15):

But I know obviously St. Patrick's is obviously a big name, biggest definitely in the us, um, church and Cathedral wise. So, um, was it, was it fun working on that project? I know you guys are,

Patrick Bowe: (08:29):

It, it was pretty interesting. I mean, uh, the, the, uh, system that was installed there, uh, it, it's performance based, so it's, it's a one of a kind system. Uh, you know, we had to get through some regulatory hurdles with the fire department, um, and, uh, you know, kind of get some, uh, the constructability of it was, was difficult, but it was, it was an interesting to be a part of. Um, and, uh, the, um, the diocese was, was trying to think of, you know, some, some good ways of providing automatic fire protection in that, uh, in that space. And I think they came to something that everybody could kind of deal with, um, as far as, you know, it was minimally invasive, um, but would still, uh, provide, you know, a relatively high, uh, degree of, of protection in some spaces that, uh, if there was a fire in there, it would be a real issue.

Drew Slocum: (09:32):

Right, right. I, yeah, I remember working on that. Um, an engineer that initially, uh, uh, worked on that project reached out to me when I was at Tyco at the time Act asking about, you know, kind of like a, a pre-action system with attic sprinklers. And obviously, you know, it didn't go out that way. You guys, you guys did something else, but that would've been a lot of water, which could have been an issue. And probably the diocese didn't want, want that much water with the regular sprinkler system. So,

Patrick Bowe: (10:00):

Yeah. So, you know, uh, one of the things that, um, people don't really realize is that the ceiling in, uh, St. Patrick's Cathedral is actually not made of stone. Oh. Um, one of the cost cutting, uh, things that they did when they built the cathedral in the 18 hundreds was change that ceiling from stone to wire, lath and plaster. Oh, wow. So, um, you know, that was a concern when the system was being designed, because if you get wire lath and plaster really wet, it's just gonna

Drew Slocum: (10:34):

Fall apart. Yeah. Right. Right. So sprinklers are definitely not an option at that point.

Patrick Bowe: (10:38):

Yeah. So there was a lot of, I think there was a lot of talk about, you know, some different options about what would make the most sense, you know, for the, the structure and the space that they were looking to protect and that kind of stuff.

Drew Slocum: (10:51):

Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I know, uh, there, there is a missed system in there, obviously, you know, you know, it's, it's interesting how the, uh, the media, uh, says it too. They, they don't say, they say there's a mis system, but I don't think the the public knows what a, what a mis system is. Um, obviously you and I do, but I guess explain just generally what a water mis system is and how it, how it operates.

Patrick Bowe: (11:18):

So there's a, a few different types of water mist systems. Um, you know, what people generally associate with water mist is, uh, you know, high pressure system, which is, you know, operates at a higher pressure than a, a normal sprinkler system. Um, and, uh, really the biggest difference between a, a regular sprinkler system and a water mist system is the droplet size. So, uh, in the system that we installed, I think the droplet size was 10 times less than a normal droplet, um, for a sprinkler system. And really it, you know, combats fire in, in two ways. One is, um, is by, uh, oxygen displacement, which really is, uh, in most water miss systems is, uh, probably the primary, um, primary way of extinguishing fire. And the second is by cooling mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . Um, it's, uh, it's pretty neat technology. Uh, it's been around for quite a while. I think it's really starting to pick up some steam in, in, uh, places because, uh, you know, commercially, uh, produced clean agent gases or, um, you know, uh, chemical agents are really not as popular as they used to be. Um,

Drew Slocum: (12:39):

And it seems, you know, and I'm gonna have some clean agent people on here soon, and it seems like there's always something transitioning in and out. So is Halan first, I, it was, uh, FM 200, now it's Novak, so there's always some new chemical, but water, water's, you know, around water, water, water's, water. And there is, there is an application for cleanish. I'm not saying that, but, um, I think some of this historical, these historical buildings, I think where, where you can't have a clean agent because of volume and, uh, not volume, but just, uh, it's a leaky system, so you don't have it, it's not fully tight. So, or it's just the cost, you know, cost of a, a clean agent system probably, you know,

Patrick Bowe: (13:24):

A a big thing too is the space. So, you know, if you're, if, uh, you have a large volume that needs to be protected by some sort of clean agent, the space to put all of that agent is definitely, uh, it's definitely a consideration. Right. So I, I do think there are, you know, great applications for, uh, for clean agents or chemical agents. Um, but, uh, I, I see the market kind of, uh, kind of moving away from it from a lot of different perc you know, a lot of different reasons. I think one of the biggest reasons is, um, the amount of, uh, uh, acceptable agents has shrunk, um, the types of, you know, what we used to see historically, uh, types of spaces that were being protected. Um, you know, a lot of, uh, data centers and computer rooms, a lot of them, uh, you know, a lot of the cloud computing, uh, era has kind of eliminated some of this stuff, so, oh, yeah. Yep. Um, you know, we don't see as many, uh, as many rooms that people are building to, to house computer equipment, which would've normally been, uh, something that we would've protected with some sort of clean agent. You

Drew Slocum: (14:36):

Know, uh, you bring that point up. I actually talked to my buddy who works for, uh, for one of the big, uh, who works for Cisco, actually. He brought up a fire, it kind of went under the radar, which I actually might post something about this, but Wells Fargo recently had a big data center fire that their online banking system went down for, for quite a, you know, I don't know if it was over a day, but their online banking system went down. And I don't think it was caused from the fire. It actually was caused from, you know, and I gotta do a little more research on this, but after the, the, the halan or the chemical agent system went off, um, some of the servers had issues keeping up and weren't able to function. So, um, very interesting. I'm gonna definitely dive into that a little more. I, you told me about that on Friday. So I don't know if, uh, I don't know if the fire protection industry knows about that fire that happened a couple months ago.

Patrick Bowe: (15:35):

Yeah, I, yeah, that's the first I've heard of it.

Drew Slocum: (15:37):

Yeah. So, um, anyway, um, yeah, it's got us application. Um, you know, I saw, uh, I've seen some water miss, I was actually just down at a, uh, a nice work trip in Bermuda, which is, uh, always fun to do.

Patrick Bowe: (15:53):

I feel terrible for you, .

Drew Slocum: (15:56):

Um, but they're, they're using a lot of, um, vortex down there because they have a lot of historical, that's obviously an old island, but they don't have water either. Right. So, explain a little bit, you know, how, you know how much water, the systems that you've designed, you know, how do they compare versus a sprinkler system?

Patrick Bowe: (16:16):

Um, so, uh, I would say, you know, maybe a 10th of the water, maybe a 50th. It really depends on the type of system. So like a Vortex system is, uh, is considered like a dual fluid system. Yep. It's actually a new, uh, NFPA standard coming out for it. I believe it's that

Drew Slocum: (16:34):

Seven 70. Yeah.

Patrick Bowe: (16:36):

Yeah. Um, it's really a neat, kind of a neat product. Um, you know, you don't have to really worry about any of the enclosure integrity, but you know, that system, uh, the amount of water that you discharge is probably between 25 and 50 times less than what a standard sprinkler, uh, system would, would require to operate.

Drew Slocum: (16:58):

Wow.

Patrick Bowe: (16:58):

Um, which, uh, you know, is, it's significant in, in places where you're concerned about water damage or you don't have enough water to, to meet, uh, you know, a duration for that hazard.

Drew Slocum: (17:09):

Sure, sure. Yeah, I, I know. Now does the water have to be, you know, I know we have the, uh, water mist. So in order to make that mist, you need a very small orifice to push that out of whether you do that through a high pressure pump, or whether you do that through a twin fluid with, with nitrogen or a compressed air or whatever you're doing. Um, there's a few on there. Tyco's got one, vortex f Does Fike have a dual, or is there, or there's just, uh, is it pump driven?

Patrick Bowe: (17:39):

No, they just have a, uh, they have, I believe they have two water mis products. One of them is definitely, uh, you know, they have a package water mis product, and then they have pump, uh, a pump driven water mis product.

Drew Slocum: (17:52):

Oh, nice. Okay. But yeah, it's pushing that, pushing that water through that nozzle to get to those fine droplets. Now, does the, you know, depending on where you're at, does that water have to be, does it have to be like, uh, distilled or is, how does it purify it?

Patrick Bowe: (18:07):

Yes. So there's, you know, every manufacturer is a little bit different. Um, if you have, uh, a sprinkler that has a a k factor of that's, uh, less than, I believe it's less than, uh, 4.2, you actually, it may be 2.8. I'd have to double check. Uh, you have to have a strainer on the, uh, on the actual sprinkler

Drew Slocum: (18:30):

On the line. Oh, on the sprinkler.

Patrick Bowe: (18:31):

Okay. On the actual sprinkler. Uh, but every manufacturer's a little bit different about what they require. I'd have to double check and see which ones, uh, want distilled water, which ones don't. Um, you know, I, that's obviously a, you know, a concern. You know, part of the other thing too is the type of piping that, um, is used to actually transmit the fluid or, um, that water, you know, obviously they're concerned about obstructions in that piping. So, um, you know, some, some manufacturers will only let you use stainless. Uh, some manufacturers will let you use, you know, a combination of a couple different pipe materials. But, uh, you know, it, I think, uh, something that's unique about water mist in general is that it's really manufacture based and performance design based. It's, you know, much less, uh, Stan, you know, I would say much less, uh, generally standard based.

Drew Slocum: (19:28):

Right, right. So there's a problem out there, kind of like what you came across at St. Patrick's where they're like, Hey, we want fire protection. Uh, we don't want any water damage. We don't have, you know, we don't, we structurally can't put anything up there. We have the, the ceiling, which is made of a plaster. So you had to come up with a performance based solution. And that's where obviously water mis fit in. So, yeah,

(19:53)
That's cool. Uh, no, I wanted, I definitely wanted to get you on here to, to ch to chat about that. Obviously there's gonna be more coming out about that fire and what happens and hopefully, and I, I, I hate to see something happen like this to, to push fire protection further. But that, I think that historical realm, I mean, there's, you always hear about a fire of, of a museum, um, near and dear to, to our arts, uh, national, national Golf Links, uh, golf club out in Long Island had a fire, was it last year, the year before?

Patrick Bowe: (20:33):

Oh, I believe it was last year. And they were doing roofing work. Yeah. And that's, you know, when a lot of fires start Yeah. When people are doing hot work on roofs.

Drew Slocum: (20:40):

Right. And it was, their entire museum, I believe, was lost or there was a lot of artifacts that were, I mean, that's one of the oldest courses in, in America, one of the founding courses in America. Um,

Patrick Bowe: (20:54):

And there was also a, a fire in the national, uh, museum of Art in Brazil that wiped out the entire museum,

Drew Slocum: (21:02):

The entire museum.

Patrick Bowe: (21:03):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (21:04):

That's crazy. Yeah. I, I just don't understand some of the, uh, the mentality behind that. It's, you know, you know, even on the insurance side of things, you, you would see that, you know, you think, or you can't even insure that because it's priceless. So, yeah, definitely. Well, um, yeah, I would love to chat a bit more about with, uh, a few other topics here in the future. Love to have you on. Is there anything, you know, apco, peerless, I want to give you a little shout out to, to what you guys are doing over there. Is there anything, uh, specific that you guys handle within fire protection or,

Patrick Bowe: (21:45):

So, um, we're a full service company. Uh, we've been in business this year, uh, for 61 years. And, uh, wow. We, we do all kinds of different stuff. Um, you know, the majority of the work that we do is in commercial office space, but, uh, we've been involved in a lot of different kinds of projects, um, and evaluated a lot of different, you know, kinds of hazards. Um, it's really been, you know, a privilege to be a part of the company and, uh, you know, kind of see, you know, I, I've been involved with it for, uh, directly for 10 years, but, um, my grandfather started the company, so it's been something that's been in my life for my entire life. Yeah. Your entire life. So it's, it's an interesting, um, it's an interesting business to be in and, uh, you get to see, you know, interesting things, uh, which I think is really a neat thing about construction in general, that you get to, you know, be a part of building something, which, um, is I think is a neat feeling.

Drew Slocum: (22:48):

Yeah, it is. And it is. And it, it, even if it's the, the passive fire protection system that, that we're putting in, uh, you know, there's still passion there, um, to see that everybody's protected, that the building's protected and, you know, we don't have any issues like we had last week. So. Yeah. Um, well, yeah, let, let's chat again here soon. So there's the, the final thing we do, and, uh, I haven't told you about this yet. We, we, we, we call it the quick response round. Okay. So it's a little corny, uh, little round where essentially I asked you two questions and you gotta pick one, one answer and uh, you only get one. It depends, cuz the first episode I had with Phil Gunning on here, he said, it depends, I feel like every question, cuz he didn't want to, he didn't wanna jump

Patrick Bowe: (23:37):

Out, didn't commit to anything.

Drew Slocum: (23:38):

No, no. But, uh, anyway, so we'll start it off. Um, would you rather go to a Notre Dame football game or a Yankees playoff game?

Patrick Bowe: (23:49):

Uh, I would say, I would say Yankee playoff game really? Only because, uh, I've seen Notre Dame lose so many times that I, you know, I feel like the Yankees are on the upswing here. .

Drew Slocum: (24:02):

They are, they're a lot of fun to watch. Uh, uh, I, I think I'm getting to a couple games this year, but, uh Oh, nice. Up in New England now. So I'm not the, the most like person.

Patrick Bowe: (24:11):

I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that .

Drew Slocum: (24:13):

Well, I, I still get Yes, yes. Network. So I'm good

Patrick Bowe: (24:18):

Good.

Drew Slocum: (24:18):

Um, hard pipe or flexible drops.

Patrick Bowe: (24:23):

Hard pipe.

Drew Slocum: (24:24):

Hard pipe. Um, I know that's a big thing, especially in New York City lately, cuz it's a, uh, there's, there's a lot of stuff around that, but, um, yeah, I, I, I definitely can, can, can see that, um, black steel. So in a dry pipe system, black steel or galvanized

Patrick Bowe: (24:44):

Black.

Drew Slocum: (24:45):

Black. All right. Why, why uh, why do you say that?

Patrick Bowe: (24:50):

Uh, it lasts a lot longer.

Drew Slocum: (24:52):

Just the corrosion, corrosion

Patrick Bowe: (24:53):

Effect, the corrosion, uh, you know, there's actually been a lot of studies done that corrosion is actually worse in galvanized than it is in black pipe.

Drew Slocum: (25:02):

Yeah.

Patrick Bowe: (25:03):

In that application.

Drew Slocum: (25:04):

Yeah. Exterior wise, it's, it's probably still galvanized, but black steel definitely on the inside, that's where you gotta worry and uh, yeah, I'm think I'm gonna have a corrosion at episode here at some point, but that's, obviously, that's a pretty hot topic, I'm sure. Um, design build or consulting engineer

Patrick Bowe: (25:25):

Design build

Drew Slocum: (25:27):

. And you came from the consulting engineer? Well, and I

Patrick Bowe: (25:30):

Came from the consult and the reason I say that is because what we're seeing more of now is like a design assist. Uh, you know, I wouldn't say it's, um, very prevalent, but you know, it seems like design engineers are, are moving away from the nitty gritty, um, coordination aspect of, of uh, putting stuff together and, you know, ultimately, um, ultimately, uh, the, the owner is, you know, it it's really up to what the owner wants to, uh, to pay for. Right. Uh, I think there is value in, um, in like a traditional design bid build process. I, I think it really depends on the project. Um, and it depends on the, the types of contractors that you have involved on that project. So if, uh, you know, if you're doing white box office space, you probably don't need to get, um, you know, the, what I would consider, uh, you know, the top of the line person involved in it cuz it's not very complicated, so. Right. You know, maybe that makes more sense for a, for a design bid build project, but when you get into stuff that's real complicated, um, you know, I think there is value in going directly to design assisted design build.

Drew Slocum: (26:48):

No, no, I agree. And obviously the project that you guys worked this podcast is about that was, that was performance based design build, but I've, I've worked on a lot of 'em myself and the, the fire protection contractor that is involved is usually very, um, uh, well-versed and, and what they're working on and a lot of times more than the, the consulting engineer and, um, obviously they're making money off the project because they are installing it, but they have, they understand that the cost that go into it so that the owner doesn't, you know, overspend or overdesign.

Patrick Bowe: (27:25):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (27:26):

Yeah. So, um, couple more, uh, Titleist or tailor made.

Patrick Bowe: (27:35):

Oh man. Are we talking balls or clubs?

Drew Slocum: (27:37):

Ah, all right. All right. Um, I'm, uh, let's go with clubs because I know it's more and it's closer.

Patrick Bowe: (27:44):

I go Taylor, Taylor made.

Drew Slocum: (27:45):

Taylor made. All right. All right. Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna tell you this man myself. Um,

Patrick Bowe: (27:51):

Well, I can't hit anything, so I guess it doesn't really,

Drew Slocum: (27:53):

Yeah. Well, you'll be back. You'll be back this year. Um, speak. Speaking of back injuries, um, what, uh, do you think Tiger, will you think he'll do it? You think he'll be Jack?

Patrick Bowe: (28:09):

Uh, I think he's got a long way to go. I think he's got a chance, but I think he's got a long way to go.

Drew Slocum: (28:14):

Uh, are you, uh, you heading out to Beth Page to, to see the pga? What,

Patrick Bowe: (28:19):

Uh, I might go see a round or two.

Drew Slocum: (28:21):

Yeah, I'll be there. I think I'm, I'll be there a couple, couple of days, so let's, uh, hopefully, uh, I'll, I'll let you know. We'll, uh, maybe see you out there.

Patrick Bowe: (28:30):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (28:31):

But, uh, hey, thanks for coming on and uh, again, I wanted to, you know, it's a, it's a hot topic right now with the, the Notre Dame fire, and I know you, you guys put a lot of great work into, um, uh, St. Patrick's Cathedral and great project for you guys. Wanted to highlight some of the, some successes you saw there and how you've worked with the different authorities and the, and, and getting that that project done. So it's nice and safe.

Patrick Bowe: (28:58):

Thanks for having me. And, uh, yeah, always, always a pleasure to, to talk about that.

Drew Slocum: (29:03):

Cool. Thanks Pat.

Patrick Bowe: (29:05):

No problem.

Drew Slocum: (29:07):

This is Ben, episode five of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect point. I want to give a big thanks to Patrick be of Apco Peerless. It's been a tough topic over the last week with the holidays and everything with the Notre Dame fire, but, you know, sometimes it does take a tragedy to show that we actually can do some great fire protection out there with some of the different systems. Obviously, uh, APCO Peerless has done a great job with St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. Oliver done a great job down in Philadelphia with that cathedral as well. So wanna point out the good parts out there that some, some places are protected and we need to get some more of these historical places protected to ensure that we keep history alive. So again, thanks for tuning in and please subscribe like the podcast again, a lot more coming and see you next time. Thanks.

EP4 - Drew talks with Martin Workman, VP of Product Management at Viking, about his involvement in tunnel fire protection. Lately the US and other parts of the world have seen an increase in fire protection in commuter tunnels. Martin also explains his involvement on a variety of NFPA committees. Foam fire protection is discussed in part 2 of the interview. Recently there have been some changes to foam protection in NFPA and with a bunch of new products.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode four of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Martin Workman of the Viking Corporation. Martin is the head of product development at Viking, as well as a bunch of other hats that he wears. He sits on multiple N F P A committees, travels throughout the world. I never know where he is half the time. So, great conversation with Martin. Uh, we get into transportation, fire protection, um, specifically on the tunnel fire protection side. And we've seen some big projects come out, uh, on that side of the industry. The second half of the podcast is dedicated to the foam and, uh, different things going on in some of the N fpa, uh, foam committees and just new products on the foam side. Hope you enjoy the podcast, and please subscribe.

(01:03)
Yeah. Episode four here of the Fire Protection Podcast. Real excited to have, uh, one of the leaders in the industry, uh, Martin Workman from Viking, uh, on the line here. And, uh, want to chat a little bit with him about what Viking and just in general, what the, what the industry's doing on, on, uh, transportation, fire protection. Uh, you'll pro we'll probably go in a lot different directions with the, with the conversation, but, uh, I knew, I knew, uh, I've known Martin for years, even before I worked at Viking, um, for the four years I was there. So he's been a big mentor to me in the market. And, uh, yeah. Welcome Martin.

Martin Workman: (01:44):

Well, thanks Drew. Uh, nice being with you this morning.

Drew Slocum: (01:47):

Yeah, yeah. This is, uh, this is an interesting new, uh, avenue to get, get some information out to the, to the masses. So, uh, yeah, just try to keep it informal and, um, yeah, learn a little bit more about you and what Viking's doing, kind of, you know, I, I've seen over the last, you know, even when I was at Viking a few years back, transportation, fire protection seems to be like a kind of a, a hot topic. And I, I don't know where that stems from. Um, you know, we worked on a, you know, while I was there, we worked on a lot of tunnel projects. I know you guys were continuing to come out with new innovations, but, um, you know, before we get into that, what you wanna give a little background about yourself at Viking and Oh, and before that?

Martin Workman: (02:35):

Sure. Yeah, I can give you the quick 1 0 1. Uh, I got into the sprinkler trade in 1984. Started out as a, a helper. Uh, moved up through the apprenticeship, became a journeyman, moved into the office, did design and estimating, uh, owned a little piece of the rock. Um, had a two year non-compete clause, um, and, uh, wanted to move. And the only place I could move with, uh, without any litigation was Viking. So I was gonna be at Viking for two years, and that was 22 years ago, . Uh, so, uh, so, uh, uh, I've been, uh, and I kind of moved up, uh, through Viking being the, you know, the, the, the tech guy answering the phone, telling you if we painted a sprinkler white or not, uh, through, uh, through product management, uh, you know, r d involvement, uh, you know, trade association and committee involvement, uh, you know, just through the, through the years. So today I do, uh, uh, business development, product management, and, um, you know, just took on, uh, our suppression or special hazard systems as well. So,

Drew Slocum: (03:39):

Oh,

Martin Workman: (03:39):

Wow. That's, so that's kinda kind of what I've got going on. Um, you know, as far as Viking, you know, uh, you know, still a, still a growing company and, you know, still, uh, still out there fighting every day. So, you know, just like, uh, everyone else in the trade, so

Drew Slocum: (03:57):

. Yeah, I know, uh, you, you know, you, you've taken on a lot of different hats at Viking even while I was there and after, I know there's a different transition in some of the business development realm. Uh, but, and every time all the listeners out there, every, every time I try getting ahold of, uh, of Martin, he's, he's either in Asia, Europe, uh, , Australia. I dunno, I dunno where you're at. I, you know, the ringtone that comes in, you know, I know you're overseas at some point, so.

Martin Workman: (04:29):

Yeah. Well, it, it, it, it, it does happen. But it's funny, drew, you made a, you made a comment on, you know, really what's the, you know, what's the driving force behind, uh, you know, the level of fire protection that we're seeing in, in, in, especially in transportation? And, you know, I, I, I truly think a lot of this has to do with, with national security, not just our domestic national security, but, but also internationally, um, just with some of the activities or, um, situations that are going on, right? Our, our, our project involvements have, have typically been, and, and you think about it, it's, it's, it's passenger safety, um, right. You know, we, we talk about protecting a tunnel, but, you know, if it, if it was a tunnel of, you know, uh, uh, just train car full of dirt, nobody, nobody would really probably care that much about it. But, uh, uh, we, we do have, we do have exposures today. Um, and then, then we talk about the different levels of protection that, that, that, that occur in a tunnel. Um, and I think you've seen that with some of the projects that you've been involved in.

Drew Slocum: (05:42):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's anything from car, I mean, is it, is it all, like you said, is it, is it more on the, uh, commuter transportation you're seeing it, or like you said, the, the, the train protection, you know, unless it's a commuter train, I could see that that potentially happen, but I, you know, we, we saw it in New York, you know, and some of the other projects that we worked on, it was, uh, all over the us these, has it happened globally as well, or is it mainly domestic?

Martin Workman: (06:13):

Uh, well, it's, it, it truly is global. Um, you know, in my time at Viking, any of the protection of tunnels was not happening in the us It was all, it was all an international effort. Um, you know, we've been involved in a lot of tunnels in, you know, New Zealand, Australia, some in Europe, some in Asia, uh, and, you know, obviously they're drilling through mountains and, and things of that nature. Um, and they, and they have these incredible, these incredible tunnels, um, where a lot of our tunnel protection is, you know, in, in, in high density, you know, metropolitan areas. Um, all the ones that I can think of, there's only, there's only a couple that I can think of that would, I would consider somewhat remote, but they, they, they carry a lot of traffic.

Drew Slocum: (07:04):

Right.

Martin Workman: (07:04):

Um, and, and, and remote is in the eye of the beholder. I mean, you know, downtown Seattle is not exactly remote. No. Uh, the Eisenhower Johnson tunnel out in Colorado, somebody might go, well, that's remote. It's like, not with the density of traffic that goes through these, through these

Drew Slocum: (07:21):

Tunnel. Yeah. Was was that the, uh, was that the Colorado tunnel that, that was just on the news where, what it put out a car fire? Was that the same one?

Martin Workman: (07:30):

Uh, you know what, I'm not sure. I've been out of the country for a few weeks, so Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (07:34):

Well,

Martin Workman: (07:34):

I just had,

Drew Slocum: (07:35):

Yeah, there, there was a big news story of, uh, I think it wa it might have been that tunnel. I'll have to, I'll have to check the sources, but there was a big tunnel in Colorado that had a, um, you know, I think it was just a regular deluge system, uh, water protection, and it put out a car fire. So it got, it got pretty, it got national news.

Martin Workman: (07:54):

Yeah. Well, I, I would assume that's the one, uh, that was quite a, that was quite a, quite a project. The, um, you know, contract, there was, there was a lot of, there was a lot of logistical efforts, um, because it was a working tunnel. And in that case, they didn't shut the tunnel down while they were, um, installing the, the, the piping network, that one was somewhat unique that it had a, it actually had a, um, if you wanna call it an attic area. So there was the, there was the flat ceiling of the tunnel, and then above it, there was, um, about, I'm gonna, I'm taking this from memory, but about 20 feet. Wow. So there was quite a bit of room above that. So, you know, the contractor was literally pouring through concrete and trying to catch the, you know, I mean the, the, the biggest was, you know, what, what if you drop?

(08:47)
What if, what if you drop one of those coolers of concrete on a car or Right. Or a person. So, so logistically that one was difficult as far the, you know, system sizes, they were deluge systems, right. They were act, you know, activated through a SCADA system, so on and off, um, um, you know, through a, through a camera network at a, at a control tower, um, you know, and the, the zones weren't particularly that large, so the systems weren't that big. Um, but they were designed for, you know, multiple zones to operate, and that, and that's obviously for a running fire, um, you know, that you've got the water supply for it. And, and, and those, those systems were, you know, you utilize an on off type valve, um, you know, which, which is, which is pretty much the norm because, you know, it's, uh, the testing has been done in tunnels. Um, detection. Detection has a tough time working. Sure. Cameras seem to work the best. Okay. Um,

Drew Slocum: (09:48):

Now is that manual, is that manual camera, or is that one of those automated cameras where it detects a fire?

Martin Workman: (09:54):

Uh, in this case, I believe it was, uh, it was a person at a control center looking through a camera, you know, viewing down a zone.

Drew Slocum: (10:03):

Wow. Wow.

Martin Workman: (10:05):

So, and, and that's, and that's not abnormal. Some of the other tunnel projects that, uh, we were involved in and unfor, well, unfortunately, unfortunately, on the, on the Johnson Eisenhower tunnel, we, we didn't have any involvement. Of course, we knew about the project, it was as it was in its bid stages. Um, but, um, you know, the in general, that's, that's typically what you're finding Yeah. Is it's, it's a, it's a manual type thing. Um, you know, those, the boots on the ground kind of thing. Right. So that somebody can make a decision when it's on and off. So, yeah.

Drew Slocum: (10:41):

Yeah.

Martin Workman: (10:43):

And those have been the challenges. And then not only that, how do we, you know, the, there's, there's several types of tunnels constructed. Um, some are bored, and when they're bored, they're typically skinned out. Um, so hanging to the structure sometimes can be, um, a little more exacting than what we're used to is sprinkler guys, rather than, you know, looking up and drilling an anchor and, you know, dropping a hanger ring. We, you know, you have to, you have to be a little more attention, you know, pay a little more attention to where these joints come together and how much weight you can hang to the wall. Um, you know, a lot of these tunnel projects are, are requesting kind of, uh, somewhat of like an integrated valve package where two valves come out in a cabinet and, uh, and they're, then they're always custom. Mm-hmm. , they, they look the same. They're kind of described the same, but every, every, every project has a, you know, has some unique requirement that wasn't the same as the last one. We're working on a project down in, um, you know, down in the mid-Atlantic region, and, and, you know, they want everything listed and in stainless steel that would go into this cabinet. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (11:58):

Wow.

Martin Workman: (11:59):

And the problem is that those two don't always, no, those two don't always go together. Right. Um, and, and, you know, they, they want the stainless steel due to corrosion. Uh, they want the listing. Oh. And then the third requirement, all domestic, so, right. So, so, so there's a triple whammy for you, .

Drew Slocum: (12:20):

Yeah.

Martin Workman: (12:20):

Yeah. Um, um, but, uh, so, so, so those are some of the challenges that, you know, you know, a contractor looking at these projects you're gonna look at and go, okay, uh, we've, uh, I've seen projects where, uh, people have installed the anchors that they use day in and day out, but they weren't domestic, so they had to redrill every anchor.

Drew Slocum: (12:43):

Oh, gosh. Wow.

Martin Workman: (12:45):

Um, and, and that's, and, and unfortunately, uh, it's the requirement, either that or they're gonna, they're gonna pull a lot of your contract away from you. Um, uh, and sometimes they don't even give you that choice. You will install these anchors. Um, and, uh, and, and not because anybody did it maliciously, you know, how many times have you, you know, you picked something up and either thought it was made in the US or didn't care, or didn't know that that, that there was one made in the us. Right. I mean, it's, uh, so, so the, what I would call from, um, from a pro project management standpoint of these kind of projects you typically need, you need to add administration that sometimes we don't always have in contracting. Right. Where, where you do, you almost have a contract officer making sure that all this, uh, information required is delivered and that, you know, that when you're purchasing something, it's, it's, it's the correct thing. Because if you are not checking it, somebody else will. Uh, and that, and that can really, you know, that can, that can have a real negative impact on the bottom line.

Drew Slocum: (14:00):

Yeah. I know when we worked on that project in, in New York, it was, you know, you know, buy America, buy American, is it assembled in the US or all do all the parts need to come in, you know, uh, from the us. So it, it gets very complicated, and you're right. As a contractor, if you're not prepared for that in the, in the bidding stage, you could, you could really be hurt by that

Martin Workman: (14:24):

Stage. Yeah. Yeah. And looking through it and in, and in general, and, and what I've found anyway, that there's, there's, uh, there, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of aids out there to, uh, to help a lot of times, you know, simply, and, and we're all guilty of this, if you go to Google and say, what is the By America Act? Um, there's, there's a lot of help through the government to, to help you understand what it is. Um, and they also tell you things like, um, small fasteners and what they might mean is like a, you know, a screw and a component because it's metal, because it's Ferris metal, it falls under that act that, that, you know, a lot of times you can, you can ask for, um, if you wanna call it a variance or, you know, they'll, they'll relent on some of those things because once it's, it's odd, it's, it's hard to find some screws and bolts that are, that are manufactured in the US

(15:21)
Yeah. And they've kinda like, okay, so that's, that's not the whole content. It's, uh, very small portion of it, but, but there isn't a rule on it. Um, or if there is a rule, it's, it's, it's newly made. This is usually project to project. So, so you also have somebody executing that act for the project That's the, you know, he's kind of the overseer. Right. You know, are you gonna allow, are you gonna allow horn made bolts, uh, in a valve? And if the answer is no, well, we better go find some ones made here. Yeah. Right. Or set up a screw machine. So,

Drew Slocum: (15:54):

Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting when you get into that and, uh, some of those public work jobs with, with those coming up the last few years. So,

Martin Workman: (16:03):

You know, one of, one of the things that, that, that I find interesting on, on tunnel projects is the, um, I, I would say the range of design that we find in them, um, I've seen where, uh, in some, uh, what I would call just passenger car tunnels where you're never gonna have a, a tanker truck come through or, or any hazardous goods, uh, where they'll design it for a 0.2, um, over the area. They're w however, right. But, but still a 0.2 utilizing extended coverage hats really ordinary. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that a couple of different times. Um, and, uh, then, then we go to the very far extreme to where, um, if there's going to be dangerous goods, um, you know, being transported through the tunnel, where you'll have, you know, a full blown, um, deluge system at a relatively higher density. Usually it's 0.3 or 0.25 or 0.3. Uh, and, and then the addition of foam if needed.

Drew Slocum: (17:05):

Huh? If needed. What, what does, what does that mean? Yeah, I've seen, you know, I worked, when I was at Tyco, I remember being involved in some of the Seattle tunnel. Um, what do you mean, if needed on the, I think they had foam out there in that one.

Martin Workman: (17:20):

Um, there's the, the, if needed is, is literally the option to foam, you know, so you've got your, so you say you have a fire, whatever, uh, in a tunnel, and I don't know what it is, it's a fire, but they turn on the water and they, they, you know, and, and they would be obviously somewhat some level of training that if it turned into a, into a pool fire and the water's not doing anything. Uh, and it, and it, and it depends on the of drainage that you have in an area. Um, you know, there's some, there's, there's a few factors that go into when do we foam a tunnel, but usually it's, uh, the, the most obvious is, you know, that you're gonna be transporting flammable liquid to it.

Drew Slocum: (18:02):

Right. Right.

Martin Workman: (18:03):

Um, and then normally what you use is an alcohol resistant, a Triple F, because it's, um, you know, for lack of a better term, it's kind of the roofer's card. It will, it will, uh, extinguish, you know, the, the, the whole gamut of FLA liquid,

Drew Slocum: (18:18):

Right?

Martin Workman: (18:18):

Yep. Um, so, so you could apply that and then, then add foam. And depending on how it's designed, usually it's a, it's a remote foam pump, and there's a foam there. You know, there's a, there's a foam Maine, just like a water Maine, uh, and you know, there's controls to allow foam down that water stream.

Drew Slocum: (18:37):

So, wow.

Martin Workman: (18:39):

So, so there's, there's the, you know, like I say, I, I find it fascinating, you know, the, the gambit of design. It isn't, um, it isn't quite as cookie cutter, you know, it isn't isn't like walking into a 45 foot warehouse with double row racks and styrofoam cups. Yeah. You know, going, I know what, I know what I need to do, cuz it's prescriptive. Um, so there's, there's, if you're looking at tunnel projects, you, you literally wanna, um, you, you want to study the specifications. Um, there's not gonna be a lot of references to a, to a go-to book. Right. Um, like a lot of specifications, if you're, if you're bidding an aircraft hanger or, you know, or a warehouse or a mall, it's pretty, it's pretty simple. They're gonna turn you back to an nfpa, a standard. Uh, if it's sprinklers, obviously thirteens gonna be one of 'em.

(19:33)
But if there's something deeper, uh, it might be, you know, could be NFP 30, it could be NFP 4 0 9, but it, but literally they're, they're a little more prescriptive. This isn't gonna be that way. Somebody has made a, a decision through, through some engineering judgment of, of how this tunnel's gonna be protected. Um, and, and that's why I say, you really want to pay attention to specifications, go to as many pre-bid meetings as you can. Uh, so you kinda get a feel of what they're looking for and it'll make the job a lot more successful for you. Cause you don't wanna be halfway through a job going, oh no, they wanted, they wanted foam added to this, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Drew Slocum: (20:14):

Yeah. I mean, even better. Why, why not work with a manufacturer that sits on some of these committees? And is heavily involved in it, right?

Martin Workman: (20:24):

Well, in, in most cases, depending on the specialty of the tunnel, you, you would be working with a manufacturer, um, uh, one way or the other. Either, either the manufacturer has worked to, to have their products specified. That's, you know, when, you know, obviously you worked at Tyco, that was something that you did before you came to Viking. When you came to Viking, you did the same thing. Something I do, uh, to where, uh, in, in many cases the, the manufacturer isn't just hawking their goods. They're, they're working on solving a problem with the, um, call it the developer or the, or the builder. Um, and it could be the shape of a cabinet, it could be the size of a valve, it could be a specialty nozzle or sprinkler. Um, so, so you're, you're, you're right, A lot of times the manufacturer's heavily involved. Um, but in a, a lot of times in a very, um, we're all capitalist at heart, but kind of in a puristic manner saying, this is a weird tunnel. It's shaped this way. We just, you know, so, uh, um, so it's not a bad idea, uh, to obviously work, work with the manufacturer. Um, and they, they may have a lot more answers during the bid stage, uh, than, because sometimes specifications are written kind of vague or, I don't know, vagues are Right. Well, vagues a pretty good word.

Drew Slocum: (21:44):

Yeah, yeah, right. You're right.

Martin Workman: (21:46):

We'll stay with vague . Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean that's, that's what we're seeing today. If you were to, um, study the, the quantity of tunnels being built in the US or dollar value for tunnels, or not in the US but around the world, um, the highest, uh, dollar value is in the United States.

Drew Slocum: (22:09):

Wow.

Martin Workman: (22:09):

Uh, which, which I found somewhat surprising. Um, the, um, you know, in the past we've always kinda looked at Europe, um, uh, and really mostly Europe. We really didn't look towards Asia for tunnel protection. Um, but, uh, but today it's in the US and there's, uh, a lot of these projects are not being, they're not protected tunnels. Uh, a lot of, cuz when you, when you get the wad of tunnel, you've really gotta kinda, um, filter through it. Uh, you know, a tunnel through the mountain that nobody's ever gonna see, uh, probably isn't gonna get protected.

Drew Slocum: (22:46):

Right. Yeah, yeah. If it's not on a main interstate or you get the traffic. Sure.

Martin Workman: (22:51):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (22:52):

Yeah. It's very, very interesting. I, you know, it's, it's kind of a niche market and, and fire protections probably not too, too many contractors working on it, but if, if you do, um, you know, it could be, uh, very lucrative or very hurt, you know, hurtful, I guess if, if you don't bid it correctly.

Martin Workman: (23:11):

Yeah. And I, and I think what you'll find is in, and you know, I kind of agree with that. There's, there's some, there's some contractors that, that are suited, better suited to do, uh, these type of projects than others. No different than where some contractors just, you know, I don't like doing government work because of all the paperwork and, and the regulation. Uh, and, and this probably wouldn't be their type of work, uh, where other, other companies, um, you know, do these type of projects with ease. Um, because they, like I said, it's usually because they have the administration staff to do it. It's, it's a little hard to do it if you're running real lean because you literally need another body

Drew Slocum: (23:52):

Right. To, to handle all the logistics and the admin stuff. Wow. Well, yeah, a lot, lot more than I actually knew about. I, I, you know, the fire tunnel fire protection. I didn't know it was a security as much of a security issue, but that, that totally makes sense. Now, this has been part one of episode four of the Fire Protection podcast. We ended up splitting this into two episodes just because it went a little long. Plus we discussed two different topics with Martin. Uh, tunnel fire protection is first, the next part will be all on, uh, phone protection. So, uh, yeah, please tune in and see you again next time.

Drew sits down with John Mackey, Director of Digital Strategy and Acquisition at Hiller, to chat about the new transition in the industry from a service contractor's viewpoint. Being involved in a variety of different positions within fire protection John discusses the challenges for the industry in the next 10 years and where things are heading.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode three of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Spec Point. Today my guest is John Mackey. John is the Director of Digital Strategy, acquisition and Service Operations at the Hiller Companies. Very long title. So we get into that definitely. But we also get into John's history and fire protection, where he came from. John has a great perspective on where the industry is heading from a contractor's point of view. We also d discuss where, uh, different manufacturers need to be in the coming years with some of the changes coming to the industry. So please stay tuned to more episodes and enjoy the podcast today. Today we've, we've got John Mackie with us. Uh, he works for, uh, is it Hiller America's, what, what is it? Hiller?

John Mackey: (00:59):

So it's the, the Hiller Companies is the legal, the, the legal name

Drew Slocum: (01:03):

Hiller Companies. And John John's the director of, uh, digital Strategy, acquisition and Service Operations. That, yes. Is it, that's a huge title.

John Mackey: (01:13):

That's a mouthful. I just usually abbreviates just business development, cuz I figure that's a broad enough statement to cover most of the things that I do

Drew Slocum: (01:20):

. Nice. Yeah. And I'll, I'll, yeah, let's get into a few of those here a as we chat. But, uh, again, wanna make this little informal, just get your, uh, what you guys are doing out there. And I know, um, ITM and service is obviously what us here at Inspect Point do, but, um, you know, you're more on the contracting aspect of that and kind of want to get your perspective on some topics here. So, um, before we get into that, uh, what, I guess, how'd you get into fire protection?

John Mackey: (01:52):

Um, I think, uh, like most of us, uh, somewhat by accident, , I didn't go to school to be a fire protection engineer. Uh, didn't go to school to be a technician. Um, I, I came across, uh, a role, um, about 15 years ago to be the director of Human Resources for Ansel. And, um, when, um, I think like a lot of folks that are in fire protection today, that's when I got the bug and, um, had the opportunity to lead the HR effort, uh, for Ansel for a few years. And then, um, moved into a senior role, a Tyco, uh, in a combined, um, Ansel special hazards Tyco Sprinkler role, um, where you and I started to work together and then, um, into a sales leadership position. Um, after, after that. And, um, really, really started to really appreciate, um, the roles that our contractors play in this market space.

(02:47)
So, an opportunity to go do something different. Um, I found myself working for the Hiller companies, which, um, is probably one of the oldest fire protection contractors in the United States, celebrating the 100th year this year. And, uh, rich history in both marine and commercial fire protection. And, uh, given the, you know, recession issues and challenges we all faced back in 2008, 2009, uh, Hiller made a concentrated effort on, uh, service in both marine and commercial and, uh, you know, tested and speced and maintenance, um, on all the systems that we design and install and everything else that's out there. So it's crazy industry.

Drew Slocum: (03:23):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, over the last, I don't know, few years since within Inspect, point before that, you know, the I, TM and service realm, you know, was in a, I might have told this story before, but, uh, at Viking, some of the head leaders there, that's the next growth area was the, the service and TM industry. So, and you've really seen that in, with some of the acquisition over the last few years as well, um, with your, you with yourself and some of the other, other regional players out there. Uh, I guess how does, I don't really fully understand that, you know, I know, I know you're head of acquisition. How does, how does a company go about that and what, is there different things you look at from, from companies out there than, than others?

John Mackey: (04:12):

Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's all about the fi obviously the financial performance of a company. But you look at our market, um, you know, those nice installs, uh, you know, come across occasionally throughout the year, you know, we might see, depends how big you are, but, you know, 6, 8, 10, 12 installs. Um, and those are long cycles, long sales cycles, long installation cycles, and then you see revenue at the end of the job, right? What's nice about service is that it's a good recurring base of business, right? Doesn't matter if it's a sprinkler system, fire alarm, special hazard system. There are cycles, monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, annually that those systems have to be inspected, tested, and maintained. And so, um, that alone generates more revenue. It keeps those technicians busier every day and allows, you know, the contractor base to offset overhead, go out and buy more equipment, uh, invest back in the business through technology. Um, because it's a steady stream of revenue, um, that you can predict year to year. And when it comes to grow, um, it's a predictable model with regard to deploy. X number of technicians will give you, you know, y number of dollars back in your pocket,

Drew Slocum: (05:29):

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in recession proof, I get, you know, to a certain extent, obviously, but, you know, codes obviously just, it grows, it doesn't, um, you know, code usually doesn't come backwards, so no no. But, uh, yeah, the, uh, it's interesting the acquisition landscape, and you know what, I, I try to, when I reach out to customers myself, I try to push that out. There is the, the better ITM and service you have, the, the more attractive you are either, um, if you ever wanna sell down the road or just just your business in general, um, you know, whether it's big companies like Hiller or other ones out there, or private equity firms, they want that reoccurring revenue. So

John Mackey: (06:21):

They do, they do. It's, uh, just, it, it's a proven model and it works.

Drew Slocum: (06:26):

Yep. Yep. So, um, into one, one of other, your titles, that digital strategy, which is kind of right in line with, uh, what we're doing here. Um, I guess I know what my perspective isn't on that. I know what a, a manufacturer's potential perspective is if they, I don't know if they necessarily have one, a manufacturer Sure. Uh, yet at least. But, um, from a, from a contractor, contractor's point of view, what, um, I guess what, what does that digital strategy mean, I guess, in your role?

John Mackey: (07:01):

Well, I think it, you know, it, uh, we look at what's going on around us in our personal lives, right? You know, we bank now through apps. We, um, go look for companies off of Google. Um, we pay our bills through some sort of customer portal or, um, you know, online capability, um, to the power company or to the cable company, or, or whatever it might be. And, and you see how, uh, the digital, um, you know, systems are having such a strong impact, um, on our personal lives. Uh, it's starting to move more and more into, uh, the business to business type services. Um, we see it at home. Um, even if you're at home, you're trying to go get an electrician, you've gotta go to Angie's List or some other service to, to go find that electrician or that plumber. Oh, yeah. Um, so how do they go find a, um, business to business contractor like a fire sprinkler contractor, inspector, or, um, you know, fire alarm contractor.

(08:01)
And, um, they do that first and foremost by doing a Google search. So from a digital perspective, how, how, how strong or how well represented is your company in the digital space? All right, so obviously it starts with a webpage, but webpage has been around for 15 years. Um, that webpage has to be updated quite continuously, uh, in order to stay towards the top of a, a Google ad search, right? And so how do you do that? There's a number of ways, right? You, you gotta continue to write copy in a blog or, um, a podcast like this or mm-hmm. , um, uh, other, other means videos, uh, whatever it might, you know, take to continue to push your, your site to the top. Um, that's one perspective. Um, so that's the website. I think the other thing that, uh, um, is out there is, um, how companies do, uh, how they manage their work and, and use technology to integrate between their day-to-day activities, um, and using that platform to tie back into Google reviews.

(09:02)
So the customer has to come back and, uh, give a review on your service and your technician, um, because that, again, is part of the formula, so, right. You know, how do you do that through, uh, either some sort of review mechanism, um, whatever it might be. And then, um, I think the, the CU degra, which is, you know, the, um, that's, that's out there lingering is, you know, the role that applications have and how an app, uh, fits in our space. I think it's, it's still undefined, um, and it's, uh, unchartered waters, but I do see that, um, that's the, uh, the next level of the program, um, and ultimately make it easier for your customer. Uh, that's a see information. So you mean

Drew Slocum: (09:48):

An

John Mackey: (09:48):

Go around the location?

Drew Slocum: (09:49):

You mean an app like, uh, like personally for, for the contractor, for Hiller or something like that? They have their own app.

John Mackey: (09:56):

Um, uh, yeah, I think so. I, I think that's, that's where it's gonna go. Um, you know, I don't want to go into too many details about what, what Hiller has in the pipeline, but, uh, I think that, uh, an app is in the, is in the near future because, um, you've gotta find ways to, to make it easier for your customers to communicate with you.

Drew Slocum: (10:15):

Yeah, it does make sense from a, a property manager or a large building, or even a fire official to that extent. Um, absolutely. If they could have something in their hands where, um, uh, you know, a big fire protection contractors is in their realm, or they're using them all the time, if they can have, uh, quick access to them, then, you know, that's just more business and more, more profitability for the contractor. That's, I haven't heard of that yet. That's, that's very interesting.

John Mackey: (10:43):

Well, you bring, you bring up a pretty good point there too. I mean, at the end of the day, it's about, you know, the safety of those folks and those businesses we support, right? You know, those companies that we're servicing. And, um, we don't do this for our own benefit. Um, it's a nice business model, but it, you know, it's to support the, the codes and standards that we're, um, we're asked to inspect on a daily basis. Um, that information's vitally important back to that business owner so they can continue to operate their business smoothly and efficiently. Um, but I think it's also very important for the, the fire marshal, the fire chief, and the fire inspector. Um, you know, they've got limited resources and, um, you know, how, how can, um, we help them do their job better. And I think it, at the end of the day, it's gonna come down through technology and then how you apply the data that, that technology captures, um, to be able to share it at the end of the day to make, you know, everything safer for all of us. Um, that's what it's all about.

Drew Slocum: (11:39):

Yeah. Yeah. Easier is definitely safer. Um, you know, the more, more ahas are connected and, you know, you're starting to see that a little bit with the, the third party, uh, platforms or imss whatever, whatever you want to call 'em around the country, which are, you know, they're, there's pros and cons to, to both methodologies, but, um, the hjs are definitely getting more connected and obviously billing management companies and owners are, have been connected for years with the other trades out there. So, um, yeah. Uh, another kind of swing to a different topic here. Um, what, uh, you know, I know you have, you know, Hiller currently has, you know, hundreds of technicians out there throughout all their offices throughout the country. What, um, what, what problems, you know, could you see potentially, I know there's a big qualified personnel problem, uh, in, in not only fire protection industry, but a lot of construction and service industries. Is is there anything that's currently being done, um, and where do you see that going?

John Mackey: (12:56):

Well, I, I, I mean, I, I, you know, you and I have talked about this before. I, I, I see it, you know, obviously we're faced with the, uh, significant labor shortage and, and the fire protection folks, I think are at the, you know, the far end of the rope on this one because we're so far downstream, right? You have a choice if you're coming into an electrical trade, do you wanna be high voltage or low voltage? Um, and most people go towards the high voltage cause it's a little sexier. Um, if you're coming into the sprinkler trade, you know, do you wanna be a plumber or do you wanna be a fire sprinkler? Um, if you're pipe fit, do you wanna be a welder or do you wanna do, you know, uh, pipe fit on the sprinkler side? And so, um, the one component there is how do you recruit that talent, you know, to come to, um, our trade.

(13:39)
That's number one. And then that, then when you get 'em here, how do you train 'em? You know, you go into municipalities or even states, right? Big states especially have state sponsored apprenticeship programs, um, for electricians, for welders, for, um, sprinklers, um, or excuse me, plumbers. And so, um, but they don't have state sanctioned apprenticeship programs for let's, like, let's sprint fire sprinkler fitter or the fire alarm technician mm-hmm. . And that puts the trade, the, the industry, uh, it doesn't matter if it's alarm sprinkler or suppression, um, on point to come up with programs that meet that need. If I remember right. Think the state of New Jersey just passed through a law that says that, um, you have to fi if you're gonna be an apprentice, uh, in the state, you have to be in a state sponsored program. And, um, fire, right now, the fire suppression industry doesn't have one. So how do you get in front of that in the state of New Jersey?

Drew Slocum: (14:33):

Yeah.

John Mackey: (14:34):

You know, and I don't, I don't live in New Jersey, so I don't know all the particulars about it, but that's, that's, that's a challenge. And I think that if, if New Jersey's doing it, then at what point does California come by? And now you start to pinch towards the center of the United States, it, uh, it changes the conversation. I think at the end of the day, um, it's gonna come down to one, how do you recruit people into the, into the industry, um, when there's already a shortage? And then secondly, when you get 'em into the, that company, company a, company B, how do you train them?

Drew Slocum: (15:02):

Right?

John Mackey: (15:03):

And then, and then, you know, either through associations, through state apprenticeships programs or state programs of some sort, uh, and then internally, and then I think the greater challenge is how do you retain them over time, right? Because, um, then it's gonna become a, become a wage war, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, voltage electrician's gonna get paid a premium, and the low voltage electrician doesn't necessarily get a premium. And so, um, they're, everyone's trying to provide for their families. And so what does that look like? Um, that's a challenge for, for us, but nine different than a challenge for the electrician trade of the plumbers because

Drew Slocum: (15:38):

Sure.

John Mackey: (15:39):

This, uh, this generation coming out of, um, high school, um, are not being taught the trades. And when they think of their career plans, they're not necessarily looking to go into the field, um, and working outside, uh, in a hot or cold, uh, area, dusty, um, you know, they've got visions of, you know, working in, um, you know, a nice comfortable, uh, air controlled space and, uh, and not necessarily getting dirty.

Drew Slocum: (16:03):

Yeah. Um, you

John Mackey: (16:04):

Know,

Drew Slocum: (16:07):

New person. It's not even, it's not only that. I mean, even, even here at Inspect point, it's, we've, we've found a little tough to, to find some, some, some of the newer generations just wanted to, I don't know, get to work sometimes. I, it's, it's, uh, , how, how do you, how do you promote that? And, you know, it's tough to, it is tough to find, uh, good people, good people, uh, in a lot of different industries. So, um, yeah. And everybody, you know, who is responsible? Is it, is it the contractor? Do the associations get involved more? Um, I think the associations is a, an interesting way to put everybody's head together to really go after it, um, with a lot of different sources of, um, not only income, we could throw, throw dollars at it to get more people in involved to market it, but, um, we have a lot of different, uh, viewpoints on that as well. So,

John Mackey: (17:03):

Yeah. And I would also say a, again, I think that, uh, let's talk about the roles of the manufacturers, right? Because at the end of the day, they're, it's their product, right? That, uh, is gonna be impacted, right? And if you, it, you know, it's a, a path at least resistance. Um, and that, I think that's in almost everything we do. And so, um, if there are an excess number of fire sprinkler, um, pipe fitters that can install more sprinkler systems and not enough technicians to maintain fire extinguishers, well, the path forward is then guess we're gonna put more fire sprinkler

Drew Slocum: (17:35):

Systems in. Yep.

John Mackey: (17:37):

And for the fire sprinkler contract, you're the fire breaker content you're saying, great. But if you're the fire extinguisher distributor saying, whoa, what do I do?

Drew Slocum: (17:43):

Right?

John Mackey: (17:44):

Right. So, um, I I would, you know, and I've challenged the suppliers, you know, as I've met with them to say, what are you doing to supply training programs back to the industry? Right. You know, your sponsorship of the associations or your sponsorship back to, um, a state or regional training program. Um, you know, you've got, uh, Brooks equipment right now who's out there doing fire equipment, f e d training, um, across the suite of products that go through Eds e lights and hood systems and fire extinguishers. Yeah. But it, where's Amarex? Where's Ansel? Right. You know, where's Buckeye in that mix? Right. Um, you know, obviously, you know, Brooks is trying to find a better path to get the message out and get more people, um, you know, into the trade.

Drew Slocum: (18:28):

Yeah. We actually, we actually started something similar. We're, we're starting to reach out to some of the apprenticeship programs in different states with just our digital platform. And it's been a huge hit. I mean, it doesn't even necessarily have to be in spec point just to get, you see, technicians used to having an iPad or a tablet in their hand and doing an inspection differently than they were on paper for 30 years before that. So, um, yeah. You you pose a big question on the manufacturer side, though.

John Mackey: (19:02):

Yeah. I mean, think of it to your point about the technology. I mean, look at how we all live today. And I'm not a millennial. I mean, I'm, I'm a parent to millennials or even the next gener generation below them, but, you know, we've all become attached to a, a smartphone or a tablet, and so we have to find ways to incorporate that technology into what we do every day. Right. You know, I, I'm finding myself, I was at a conference this weekend. I went meeting to meeting with my phone, and I opened up an app Evernote, and I captured all the notes on Evernote, and I took pictures of the slides and, and, uh, as I was driving back to, you know, that was what I was kind of going through to kind of recapping my mind what I just learned over the last three days. And, you know, so how do you take that idea and put it in a technician's hands to help him do his job a little bit better?

Drew Slocum: (19:46):

Yeah. Yeah.

John Mackey: (19:47):

Right. Because now it becomes the natural process.

Drew Slocum: (19:51):

Yeah. That, that paper form that everything, yeah. It's, it's, it's gone. It's, it's ancient at that point, mm-hmm. and hopefully hope the Hjs get down to that. Uh, and I think they're coming to that. They're, you know, there's some technology out there that'll definitely help out with their, with their lives, and, um, that'll just push it even further. So get into a question I have on, on some of the manufacturers. You know, I'm, I'm pretty involved in, in, you know, I was involved pretty well with Sprinkler, and I kind of know what's going, coming out fire alarm wise, but, you know, suppression, I try to keep up to date on, on different suppression manufacturers, ANAM, ORX, Buckeye, Badger, kid A the whole, the whole suite of everybody. Um, where, where is that industry going? I don't, I don't, it's, it seems pretty stagnant. I don't . Um, I mean, do you, or do you follow, obviously you follow it because you're, you're a contractor in the industry, but I don't, what is the next wave for suppression?

John Mackey: (21:00):

I, I, I really don't know other than finding ways to become more innovative with the product. Yeah. Right. Um, and, um, I'm not sure what that looks like. I'm not an engineer. I mean, I've got some ideas with regards to how you use the data that that product can capture. Sure. Um, but, um, I think that, um, you look at what's happening with, uh, Kitta UTC has come out and said that they are for sale. They've been very open about that. It's been in published reports. Yep. Um, and, um, you know, who buys Kit Kiddas, the oldest fire equipment manufacturer in the country? No, lemme finish. They're probably next to Grinnell, but technically . Right. They make bigger pieces of equipment, so, sure. Um, since, you know, 1917. So in that same realm, um, strong brand, um, it's kind of watered down. Some of the others, fenal went away.

(21:46)
Now it's just keda. And so, um, that buyer, um, isn't necessarily gonna be, um, a direct fire competitor. I honestly think here's the innovative play is that the person that's gonna be interested in buying Kid of Fire Systems is gonna be a company that's interested in integrating that fire system into everything else. That building has H V A C, electrical elevators, you know, um, you know, all their mechanical systems. Um, just to kind of bring the whole suite together. Um, you know, look at what JCI has done with Ansel. I mean, that's, that was, that's the play there. And then JCI and George Oliver have been very open and honest about that's where they're going. Yep. Yep. Um, and then, um, so that's, those are the big boys. So then what does it do to the, the, the next ones down? Right. Um, Buckeye has a limited portfolio. Badger has a limited portfolio. Um, Amex just sold, sold off Solberg foam Yep. To another foam manufacturer. So there's integration on the foam side

Drew Slocum: (22:48):

Yeah. And the wild wildfire, I think manufacturer Right. Doing wildfire. Exactly.

John Mackey: (22:52):

Yeah. Yeah. Class a, uh, retardants and, um, and foam. So, you know, you look at, um, you know where it's going, drew, I think it's gonna be much the same. Yeah. You know, you go back 25 years ago, um, you know, when wold owned Ansel mm-hmm. , Taku came in and bought Ansel from Wold. Right, right. Um, look at, you know, you, you know, you and I were on the back end of the, you know, century, um, uh, star not century, remember

Drew Slocum: (23:21):

For Central German and Star Central,

John Mackey: (23:23):

Central German star, um, acquisitions that Tyco did. Right, right. And, and that integration, simplex Grinnell and that integration, um, I, I don't know how, um, that's all consolidation and all it is, then it's cleaned up the market. Um, I don't necessarily say it's making it any better. Right. Um, it creates its own challenges by itself. But at the end of the day, um, I think the, the richness of our industry is on strong contractors, um, that are really able to, you know, take the, you know, meet the needs of their customers and, and drive compliance and, um, and the manufacturers, um, find a way to generate more value through, you know, integration and innovation of better products on their end.

Drew Slocum: (24:04):

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that kind of goes in line with what I heard a few years ago when I was with Viking, is the next wave is, is the contractor ITM and service. So, um, driving that, driving smarter buildings, uh, there, there is some technology that some of the suppression and even sprinkler and whatever manufacturers, that there is some digital technology out there that's kind of being untapped that we're trying to do. Um, hopefully, uh, some stuff comes out here in the next few months, but, uh, it is really exciting. Definitely. Really exciting. So, yeah,

John Mackey: (24:40):

I, I, I honestly think, I think the industry's getting ready to go through a, a significant change at the conference I was at this week, you know, has been around since 1982. And, um, you know, they, you have, you know, the, the original founding members still there. Um, and then you have, uh, a number of new talent come into the mix. And the question from new talent is where's the innovation and where's the new technology?

Drew Slocum: (25:03):

Right.

John Mackey: (25:04):

You know, how do we do our jobs better? How do we make it better for our customer? How do we find ways to put, you know, push clean agent gas further bigger tanks, or, you know, how do you, how do you integrate that panel, um, you know, off of a traditional, um, reporting mechanism into the ip, uh, infrastructure that's already in the building?

Drew Slocum: (25:24):

Yeah.

John Mackey: (25:25):

Right. And so, um, you know, you have the, the new generations that are coming into the workforce, challenging the folks that have been here for a while saying, we've got to change people. . Yeah. Yeah,

Drew Slocum: (25:37):

Yeah. . Yeah, I get it a lot. It's, it's funny, I talk to a lot of contractors throughout the US and, um, you know, new, you know, sons of businesses are coming in, or even grandsons of business coming in and, and try, they're challenging the owners and, um, a lot of times I get, you know, uh, uh, they, they don't get what they want, but eventually the, the owners, if they don't follow the wave, then they're just gonna get, you know, swept over by, uh, a larger player. So,

John Mackey: (26:09):

Well, you're right. Or think of the technology, right? So they of some other industries that have leveraged technology to do what they do. Right. Look at the security space, look at access control, uh, look at some of the smart houses and smart, you know, construction processes are going on in the residential space studies like Denver. Yeah. Right. At what point do those technologies start to find their way into fire? Right. You know, someone made a comment at the, the round table, or the open or the town hall, um, Monday and said, you know, well, we've got 10 years, our industry's always lagged everybody else. Well, that's because the codes have allowed us to lag. But who's to say that, you know, somebody else brings a game changing technology, uh, into the market and says, you know what, we can put that fire alarm system in that same system Right. And do the same thing. And guess what? I don't need to run new wires.

Drew Slocum: (26:53):

Yeah.

John Mackey: (26:54):

Right.

Drew Slocum: (26:55):

So what Google Nest is, right. Essentially.

John Mackey: (26:58):

Yeah. Look at your ring , you know, I mean, all that stuff. I mean, it's, and it's in our, it's in our personal homes right now. Yeah. At one point, does it make sense to bring it into the, into the commercial space?

Drew Slocum: (27:07):

Right. Well, good. Um, yeah, this has, this has been fun chatting. We'll, we'll definitely have to do this again. Um, before, before we go, uh, wanna, I just started this, uh, this podcast. So there's, we're we're, we do this something called a Quick Response Round , um, quick response. You, you only, you know, uh, Phil Gunning was on, on my last podcast. Uh, I let, I let him have a couple. Uh, it depends, but, um, these are a little more fun. I, I, I geared these little non-industry. So, um, yeah, let's start it up. Uh, so I know you're, I know you're Chicago guy. Yes. This is, this should be an easy one. Cubs or Sox?

John Mackey: (27:52):

I'm the South sider. Through and through. Oh, it's

Drew Slocum: (27:54):

All

John Mackey: (27:55):

All about the White Sox. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (27:57):

I thought you were a Cubs fan. Wow. learning that. All right. Um, deep Dish or Chicago style hotdog.

John Mackey: (28:06):

So Chicago style, hotdog sport peppers, uh, celery salt. Yes. And all Yeah. On the poppy seed bun.

Drew Slocum: (28:17):

Yeah. Deep dish. Deep dish is not a pizza anyway,

John Mackey: (28:19):

So no deep dish is is tourist Chicago.

Drew Slocum: (28:22):

It's a casserole.

John Mackey: (28:24):

What I say, you want a good Chicago pizza, you gotta get in the neighborhood, you gotta go on the south side, you

Drew Slocum: (28:29):

Know. Couple more here. Uh, tiger or Phil?

John Mackey: (28:35):

Phil.

Drew Slocum: (28:36):

Phil. All right. That's he one. He's got nice little comeback this year here too. Um, the exciting, I've

John Mackey: (28:42):

Always liked Phil, and the first half of the first 10 years of his career, he was always the underdog, the fighter. Right. And then, uh, he got, he broke through, started to win some majors. Um, you know, and, um, you know, just a good guy. I I, I'd love to sit down and, and, uh, you know,

Drew Slocum: (28:59):

Debate, share

John Mackey: (29:00):

A cigar with him and just talk golf life.

Drew Slocum: (29:03):

Yeah. He's on, uh, he's on social media now in the last six months, and it's, he's a, he's a, he's a character, definitely. Yep.

John Mackey: (29:11):

Yep.

Drew Slocum: (29:12):

Uh, industry question. So hire, so if you're hiring a technician, hire from competition or train from the ground up,

John Mackey: (29:20):

Train from the ground up. I think that, uh, you look at what goes on in the industry. I think there's, you know, if you're not controlling the training path, um, people are learning shortcuts. Um, they're learning from, you know, so and so at company B and, uh, not necessarily trained Right. Um, or trained in the ways that, uh, you expect the work to get done. So I'd like to see owner or see companies, contractors, uh, develop their own.

Drew Slocum: (29:44):

Yeah, I, I agree. It's, it's retainage. That's, that's the tough part there. And if you could do that, it's, it's, uh, it's a definitely a win-win. Yep. Um, iOS or Android?

John Mackey: (29:58):

IOS.

Drew Slocum: (29:58):

IOS. All right.

John Mackey: (30:01):

. I'm,

Drew Slocum: (30:01):

I'm, we're on board obviously with that too.

John Mackey: (30:04):

. Yeah. I've been an Iowa OS guy all the way. Uh, I probably, my kids have a lot of influence on that too, because, you know, they, they carry, they've got MacBooks and they got iPhones in their little, and, you know, it's, uh, you know, it just seems to be, um, the easiest thing to use. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (30:19):

I think

John Mackey: (30:19):

She just, I struggled, I struggled getting rid of my Blackberry back, back in the day. But, uh, , uh, I absolutely love my iPhone. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (30:28):

Yeah. It's, uh, hopefully, I think they're doing some transformation on the tablet side here soon. It should be, uh, hopefully, uh, change the industry up a little bit more, but, um, good. Uh, last one, N F L or College fbs.

John Mackey: (30:44):

So, um, you know, if you asked me that question five years ago when I lived in the north, yeah. Um, you know, 60 miles from Lambeau Field, I'd say nfl. Um, but uh, given all the shenanigans that, um, the NFL players have, have run the league through, and even how the league itself has run, I don't necessarily agree with what's going on. And I've lived in the South now for six years, truly, truly appreciate, um, college football, cuz down in the south it's all about Saturday football and, um, which leads you to, you know, the FBS and, and everything that, that goes with it. Uh, and no, I am not an Alabama football fan. ,

Drew Slocum: (31:21):

I was actually connect

John Mackey: (31:22):

Don't, don't tell my coworker that. Buddy . I'll hear about it.

Drew Slocum: (31:27):

Uh, that's funny. That's funny. Well, um, yeah, that kind of does it for us. Uh, I, you know, I appreciate the time. Um, it's been a lot of fun. I know we've chatted over the last few years. You've really, you've really, uh, mentored me, pushing me through some, a lot of, you know, a lot of what's going on with, with Inspect point and everything we have here. So, uh, um, I appreciate all that and, um, we'll have to do this again soon. Definitely.

John Mackey: (31:53):

Well, thank you for the opportunity, drew, and really, you know, um, um, you've also, you know, kind of pushed my thinking, uh, as well. So, um, I'm glad we've been able to, you know, over the last 10 years since, uh, we've started working together, uh, to develop a, a good friendship and, um, I'm glad I could help you out and, you know, um, look forward to, you know, the next time we're together, either on the golf course or over at dinner or, you know, or on the next podcast.

Drew Slocum: (32:17):

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Well, uh, thanks again and, uh, we'll talk here soon.

John Mackey: (32:24):

Great. Thanks man.

Drew Slocum: (32:25):

Thanks John. Thanks you for tuning in to episode three of the Fire Protection Podcast. We're definitely trying to do more in interviews like this at Inspect Point and on the Fire Protection Podcast, so please stay tuned, like us on all of the social media channels and please subscribe. See you next time.

Drew sits down with Phil Gunning, director of training for Globe, to discuss where innovation in the fire protection industry comes from. Having a strategic plan to design, manufacture and release a new product is key. Phil also gets into Globe and a few of the new products they are launching.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode two of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today my guest is Phil Gunning of Globe Fire Sprinkler. Phil is the Director of Training and Education at Globe. He also wears many other hats. Phil's been the industry for 20 plus years in fire protection and also is a, uh, graduate of wpi. The conversation goes on and on, but mainly we talk about fire protection design, specifically in the manufacturing sector. So hopefully enjoy and please subscribe and stay tuned. There's a lot to come with this, uh, fire Protection podcast. It's the first of many conversations with leaders in the fire protection industry. Hope you enjoy

Drew Slocum: (00:56):

Episode two of the Fire Protection Podcast. Today we're gonna be talking about effective design and fire protection PO products. I'm here with, uh, Phil Gunning of Globe Fire Sprinkler. We're kind of gonna chat a little bit about, about Globe, but just in general, just effective product design and how we're going to, how the industry and different manufacturers go about developing new products and, you know, the process of that. So, uh, thanks for coming on, Phil. No, I'm

Phil Gunning: (01:28):

Glad to be here. Hello

Drew Slocum: (01:29):

Everyone for the first one, uh, of this new year. So, uh, first, uh, just let me know your background a little bit. I, I know you personally, obviously. Yeah. But, uh, you know, maybe the viewership out there or listenership, uh, don't know who you are. Sure.

Phil Gunning: (01:49):

Well, again, I'm Phil, Phil Gunning. I've been, uh, in the industry since 1994. Late 93. I went to school at WPI and got a mechanical engineering, uh, degree, and then went a little further and got fire protection engineering degree. And from there I went down to the US Naval Research Lab and I burned and blew stuff up for the Navy. And that was a lot of fun. Got to play with rocket fuel and all kinds of things. Oh, wow.

Drew Slocum: (02:14):

Where was

Phil Gunning: (02:15):

That? That was down in our, our testing lab was in Maryland. Okay. But the main lab was in DC So I did that for a few years and then decided to get into consulting. You know, my main, main goal in life was to have a family. And I thought consulting was a, a more secure avenue to take in fire protection. So my now wife and I went out to California, did some consulting in a, in a, in a firm that really set the groundwork for my career. So it was the Fire Protection International Consortium. So then I, you know, my brothers, I'm the youngest of three guys, uh, three boys. My brother started having kids and growing up on the East Coast, my wife and I just wanted to be a part of that. So we moved back. And when I did, I was with the same company, but my territory was like Maine to Florida, Kentucky to Puerto Rico, . So I was on the road an awful lot.

Drew Slocum: (03:09):

And she loved that, I'm sure.

Phil Gunning: (03:10):

Oh, she loved that so, so much that when I got back from a business trip, I used to work, you know, in the house and strategically placed on my keyboard, was a, a job description to be a trainer. And it was for Tyco, now jci. But I was so glad I did it. I, uh, did that for about 10 years and it was a lot of fun. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (03:31):

That's where we met back in the old Tyco days. Yeah. They were fun, definitely.

Phil Gunning: (03:35):

Oh, it was a great time. Great people. We, you know, had such a good group in the technical services department, which is what I was in, but also training. So it was nice to hear the issues coming in from the industry. And then you could apply that to your training and try to capture, you know, the problems people were having and hopefully set 'em on the right path. And so the training is something that is real passion of mine. But then I took a short break and went to, uh, Aon as a, as a risk consultant, which really opened my eyes to that avenue of fire protection. It's such a, a unique beast in the, in, in our industry. And so an opportunity came up with Globe, which, you know, I've been with Globe only since, uh, you know, July of last year. But it's with a group of people that I, I truly respect and they, they have the same passion for fire protection that, that I do. Yeah. When it comes to, you know, the whole, the whole service, which is not only taking, you know, what the customer needs and focusing on, on pleasing them, but also with just coming up with products that are fun to talk about. You know? Cuz if you're gonna work for a manufacturer, you better be passionate about what you're offering. Cuz you know, at the end of the day, we're trying to save lives. Right. And that's, that's,

Drew Slocum: (04:48):

It's a huge thing.

Phil Gunning: (04:49):

So it's, I'm, I'm really excited to be a part of Globe. And so that's my history. So what

Drew Slocum: (04:55):

Do you, what is your current role there? What's your title?

Phil Gunning: (04:58):

Uh, what's on my business card is director of, uh, you know, education and training. So, but we all wear many hats. And so I get out there and I talk to, you know, different contractors and MEP firms for business development. And, and so you play a, a bunch of roles when you're in a smaller company. Yeah. Like Globe. Yeah. Which makes it fun, you

Drew Slocum: (05:20):

Know? Well, you, you were telling me a few weeks ago as well, uh, I don't know if anybody else knows, but, um, uh, my family and I moved up, up to the area up here in, uh, uh, Southeastern Connecticut and in the southern Rhode Island. And, uh, Phil, Phil explained to me a few weeks ago that a lot of the Globe folks are, are here in, in Rhode Island. So it's nice little, uh, fire protection area that I, I moved into. So it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Moving up here. You got a

Phil Gunning: (05:51):

Lot of, it's a great spot. Yeah. great spot. Good people. Lot, lot to do.

Drew Slocum: (05:57):

Um, all right, well, I got your background here. I, you know, what, what is your, you know, I know we worked together at Tyco and, you know, I went off my Viking direction and you went off on your, your Aon direction, um, or back here, again, we know a lot about product design, you know, I, I've been involved in it. You, you're definitely involved in a lot more. What, uh, what are your thoughts on why, why certain companies are better at doing things and how they think about it? So I'll kind of pick your brain on that.

Phil Gunning: (06:30):

Well, as any, any company you wanna, well, our goal is to make a product that addresses all the stakeholders needs. And when I say a stakeholder, you know, when you talk about a project from conception to the design phase, and then purchasing, installing, and maintaining, if you can provide a product that makes the steps to achieve all those, you know, to achieve all those steps, well then that's, that's our goal. We, and, and focus. So at the end of the day, if you can make a product that is not only easy to understand, but design, purchase, install and maintain, that's, that's a winner. And that's, that's our goal.

Drew Slocum: (07:15):

And if you could do all that, that'd be great. But what, what one do you, what one do you focus on? I mean, there's gotta be ones that are more key than others, right? Oh,

Phil Gunning: (07:22):

Without a doubt. I mean, you're always looking for what's needed. Because, you know, if, if you're doing a design that allows any manufacturer to offer a product that can meet the, the requirements for, for that design, then you gotta start diving into what makes one product different from another. And that's what manufacturers do. You try to provide a benefit that's like a no-brainer type thing that someone that has the experience of installing would be, gees, that would make my life a lot easier. Right. You know, and at the end of the day, we want to provide something, you have to provide something that's gonna work, and that's done through all the testing, right. And listing of a product. But then at the end of the day, uh, if you can tell somebody that this product is going to provide less stress when it comes to knowing that you have to get that co at the end of the day, and the building is blessed for use, so you wanna make sure that you're not going in at the end, at the last minute fixing little things like cover plates falling off or, or things that can delay and upset the owner and, and ultimately have a bad reflection on, on whoever supplied the product.

Drew Slocum: (08:35):

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I know, uh, a few, few months ago now, I, I was down in, uh, New York City doing, uh, doing a little product highlight from you guys. I, uh, you know, on our, on inspect points, YouTube channel, I, I go around to different manufacturers and see different products, and there's a lot out there. So I try to highlight, uh, more of the pros of everything. I, I have my opinion. I don't give that in the, in the YouTube. But, um, yeah, we did the, the Globe umc, which was, uh, it's an amazing product and I know it's got some traction lately. So if you wanna, uh, I know that that's kind of really what we're talking about today is effective design in, uh, fire protection products. And that's, uh, you know, on the forefront of that. So yeah,

Phil Gunning: (09:26):

If, if we use the U M C as, as an example to go through the different phases of a project, then, uh, then it, it, it shows that globe took the time to think of every person, every stakeholder. So as a, you know, in the design phase, when you compare, you know, or when you start investigating what's required by the standards that you're, that's adopted, we have a product, like if we were to just focus simply on a floor control valve that's needed in a multi-story building

Drew Slocum: (09:59):

By the, by the way, for listeners, the UMC is a floor control valve with, with other features to it.

Phil Gunning: (10:04):

Yeah. We have larger sizes that can be used just for your, for your main riser assembly. Right. Um, but when it comes to separating one floor or isolating one floor in a, in a multi-story building, then this, this UMC is really a all-in-one product for what's required by NFPA 13 for a floor control valve, right? Mm-hmm. . And what's what's nice is when you go in and start talking to people who are designing the, the benefits of, of getting an all-in-one product that has, you know, your control valve, your flow switch, your check valve alarm and test drain, right? What's, what's nice is that when the way we designed it is that it turns out to be the smallest footprint from one end of the, of the product to the other when compared to any other manufacturer. When you have to start piecing all those components together, right?

(10:56)
You get their shotgun riser or something, you put your check valve and your flow switch and your control valve, when you put all those pieces together, you know, ours is, is on the order of, of 10 to 15 inches shorter. So you can fit it into a tight space. And if you think of places like New York where they're doing retrofits and, and, you know, uh, space is a premium, designers like that, you know, so on the design side, it's, it's nice. So when you go to the purchasing side of it, ton of benefits you have out of the box something that you just need to put two couplings on and you're on off and running outside of your electrical, right? That's, it has to be done also for your tampers and flows. But when it comes to purchasing, it's so nice to tell someone, Hey, we're gonna enable you to put one product number down for purchase that equals anywhere from 14 to 16 components that you'd have to separately order from someone else. And so to the purchasing agent, that's, uh, you know, ease of mind Yeah. You know, knowing that what's required is what's gonna come in the box. And I

Drew Slocum: (12:05):

Think from a sales perspective, that's going to back my days from a distributor's perspective as well. A lot of times you'll lose out on, on those other sales. So let's bolt it all in one product to the purchasing agent. So,

Phil Gunning: (12:18):

Yeah. Yeah. So for purchasing, you know, the, the box that it comes in, it's all cardboard, like, there's no foam. So the, the waste, you know, after you take it outta the box and have to break things down is minimal. And, and we listen to the voice of customer on that because we used to do it with foam, and it was just a large volume of waste, which you don't really don't think about until you hear the complaints coming in or the concerns coming in. And so we address that right away. And that's what's fun about being a globe. It's a small enough company where changes can be made quickly when, when problems come up or, or issues come up. So that's nice to see the versatility of the, of the company. But continuing on with, with the purchasing side, there are components on the, um, c that allow us to stock just one, one of what's required. You know, uh, uh, for instance, the alarm in test drain has the requirement to flow water that represents the smallest K factor on your system, right? You wanna make sure that if, if the smallest K factor head activates, it's gonna flow enough water to get that right flow switch to operate

Drew Slocum: (13:28):

Like a four, 4.0 or 4.2, something like that.

Phil Gunning: (13:31):

Well, when you think of a typical office building, what 5, 6, 5 6 might be is is typically your smallest. So, you know, uh, the purchaser would have to order, uh, test alarm, you know, test drain that has a five six orifice, right? So if you have multiple KF factors in your facility, you gotta a understand what your smallest one is. But the 2000, um, 13 edition of Offa 13 says that you can have your orifice test orifice represent the smallest K factor on the system, or smaller. Okay. So it doesn't, so what Globe did was they figured out that using a 2.8 K factor orifice was enough of an opening to flow about

Drew Slocum: (14:18):

2.8. Wow.

Phil Gunning: (14:19):

2.8,

Drew Slocum: (14:20):

Which is the, I think the smallest anyway, isn't it? Well, anything

Phil Gunning: (14:23):

Smaller. Well, until you get into residential Yeah. You know, maybe you'll have something small, but, you know, maybe, you know, uh, nozzles water Miss Noz or something that, but that's outside Yeah. You know what we're talking about. So what, what we've done is given the peace of mind for the purchaser to say, Hey, don't worry about, you know, getting the right orifice. We have the smallest one. Uh, it works regardless of the K factor that you're using. Even if you have a 25 or 28 K head, it's still gonna work fine. Um, and it's been tested accordingly. So as a manufacturer, we don't have to stock all the different KF factor orifices and make sure that the right one's going out or being installed. So we tried to eliminate that concern. And when you think of other stakeholders that that benefits, it's the, you know, the installer just puts it in, not have to think about it, but then whoever's testing the system, whether for commissioning or post inspection testing and maintenance, sure. You know, you don't have to worry about it. The, the authority having jurisdiction, whoever, whomever that may be, whether it's with the municipality or the insurance company, you can give them peace of mind that, that we are representing the smallest K factor. Yeah. If you have

Drew Slocum: (15:32):

To replace that Yeah. Inspector tes valve Yeah. Or that orifice you, you know, what you're getting into. Yeah. If you're doing ITM on it.

Phil Gunning: (15:41):

So the other, you know, so now we've kind of hit the, the design side, the purchasing, and now on the installation side, you're saving time because everything's already put together, you know, putting component by component together. Um, the, the neat thing is that every U M C comes with an adjustable relief valve on the test and drain valve. And what's nice about that is, is your typical test and drain valve does not come with your relief valve. So was it 2010 that I think? I

Drew Slocum: (16:15):

Think so,

Phil Gunning: (16:16):

Yeah. 2010 edition of 13. Yeah. Said that every wet system now requires a relief valve, not just gritted. And so Globe's mentality was, well, if it's gonna be needed, let's just put it on Right. The test, you know, but what's different about it is that it's adjustable. So with a crescent wrench, you can adjust it from 1 75 up to 310 psi Oh, wow. Which is really nice just with a crescent wrench in the field. So if you take a step back and think of how things are typically done, you know, that port that your test valve is typically your relief valve is, is screwed into, is typically plugged when, when you're installing your alarm test, test and train valve. And that's so that the, the contractor can conduct their required hydrostatic test mm-hmm. , right? So you gotta pump it up to 200 or whatever the pressure may be, hold it. And so when the test is done and passed, the contractor drains the system, takes the plug out and puts the typical fixed 1 75 PSI pressure relief valve on the, on the, on your system. Right. What's nice about having a fit, you know, an adjustable relief valve that's always on there is that you just take your crescent wrench, you, you di you know the valve is scored, so you know what pressure it's set at, it's really easy. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (17:31):

I saw that. Yeah.

Phil Gunning: (17:31):

Yeah. It's really easy to see soho there. Yeah. So the contractor just, you know, increases the pressure down, you know, up to whatever they need, run the test, and without having to drain the system, you just put it back, put back on, put it back, wow. You know, unscrew it. So now we're trying to help the installer save, and, and that's what this, this valve, the relief valve does. But on the design side, if you're in a jurisdiction that says, you know, maybe they don't allow pressure reducing valves, you know, um, instead of having to tell the purchaser to go get a higher set relief valve mm-hmm. and, and put that on, right. All you gotta do is, you know, screw it down a little bit and, and increase the pressure. So Sure. It's a very versatile component for both design install and, um, and it's very popular. Yeah. So

Drew Slocum: (18:21):

Now there's been, there's been big traction. I've heard a lot, you know, a lot of the contractors in New York, which, you know, I used to be, he, I'm still heavily involved there, but, uh, you know, a lot of 'em are learned about the UMC and, you know, I think it at New York City or any high rise market, it would be huge for

Phil Gunning: (18:38):

Yeah. And yes, especially when you start looking at, at post installation, right. You know, you always, you know, these, a lot of the engineers I call upon, they're representing the owner, right. They're a stakeholder in this. And so for peace of mind for the owner, um, you know, when, when you're looking at having to do internal inspections of your valves every five years per n FPA 25 5, you know, that check valve that's on your floor control assembly, you know, has to be looked at or should be looked at. So

Drew Slocum: (19:12):

Per the, per the code, right. You

Phil Gunning: (19:13):

Know, per, for the, per

Drew Slocum: (19:14):

The code for certain check valves out there, I don't, you can't get into 'em, right?

Phil Gunning: (19:17):

No. And typically on your smaller check valves. Yeah. You know, if you think about it, if, if, if the engineer doesn't spec that a check valve needs a removable cover, then typically you're gonna get a, a check valve that does not have a removable cover. Right. Cuz it's less expensive. Oh, yeah. There's, it works fine, but if you're choice

Drew Slocum: (19:34):

Is less expensive.

Phil Gunning: (19:35):

Yeah. But if you think about, you know, uh, making sure that people are gonna look in that every five years, then what the UMC does is it has a removable cover on the check valve. So it enables a contractor to quickly get inside the valve and, and inspect it. Whereas if it doesn't have one, one of two things happens, right. The contractor will either go in and physically remove the entire check valve. Right. Take off the two couplings and, and pull it out. Um, but to, you know, a lot of times if you're piping shifts at all, it could be a nightmare to try to get that valve back in, especially if it's in a vertical orientation. Maybe you might need a hydraulic jack to lift it. Yeah. You just don't know the headaches that could be caused by removing a component from your system. Um, and so if, if it's problematic to do that, then a lot of times the contractor will just move on. Right. And not even do it.

Drew Slocum: (20:30):

Yeah. Yeah. Let's leave it

Phil Gunning: (20:31):

Alone. And if they, then if, but if they do do it and it presents all those issues, who has to pay for it?

Drew Slocum: (20:36):

This building owner. Yeah.

Phil Gunning: (20:37):

Yeah. So it gives peace of mind to the owner that we can now conduct what's required by the adopted codes and standards for inspection, testing and maintenance easier. Mm-hmm. .

Drew Slocum: (20:47):

Yeah. Great. Yeah. No, that's great. I, I think when you guys developed that, uh, is there a Six Sigma person on your, that sounds very, uh, six Sigma ask of Yeah, it

Phil Gunning: (20:58):

Does, but no,

Drew Slocum: (21:00):

No. Um, design for Six Sigma.

Phil Gunning: (21:02):

Design for Six Sigma. No, I, I know. No, that process pretty well. And it definitely has its benefits, you know, and, and, um, it's proven to work in manufacturing, but sometimes things just make sense that you don't need to, to do that process to figure out Yeah. Yeah. It just

Drew Slocum: (21:21):

Makes, throw it through the ringer and

Phil Gunning: (21:22):

Yeah. Just makes sense.

Drew Slocum: (21:23):

Have it, have everything cut outta the product before it actually gets to market .

Phil Gunning: (21:27):

Yeah. It's an amazing process for things, but we did not use it on this one. .

Drew Slocum: (21:32):

Yeah.

Phil Gunning: (21:33):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (21:34):

Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I was a six Sigma black belt way back in the day and, uh, still utilize those, those, uh, learnings I guess and techniques to this day with inspect point outside and even life, you know? Yeah. But, uh, you're right. It, you could get over, uh, critical of a, you know, of a process and Yeah.

Phil Gunning: (21:55):

And sometimes you just don't know how to include something into a design until you actually do it and futz with it. Right. You know. Yeah. You're like, oh man, this is in the way. You know? Yeah. And so if you don't, you know, a a tool is only as good as the input, right, right. And so if you don't think about that in the Six Sigma process, then it's not gonna come out in the final.

Drew Slocum: (22:16):

Yeah. That voice of the customer and stakeholder analysis is, is really key in the design process. And you gotta, you gotta throw everybody in there. There's blockers, there's, you know, supporters. Um, and if you don't get everybody in there, uh, you know, your pro you know, your product or your process might, might let down there. Yeah. So

Phil Gunning: (22:38):

I agree.

Drew Slocum: (22:39):

Oh, good. That's, uh, is there, uh, is there anything, Globe's got up their sleeve coming soon. I know, uh, I know, um, the UMCs been, uh, ongoing. You've guys have added a lot to it, but, uh,

Phil Gunning: (22:54):

Yeah, we got something coming out that, that I really, it's such a teaser cause I can't really tell you about it until it's, it's a little further down, but it's revolutionary in the fact that, um, it's going to be a multifunctional valve that is really going to reduce the, the dimensions of installation when, when compared to what, you know, the other components you'd have to use from someone else. It's really a neat product. I wish I could tell you more about it. No, that's all right. But I can't, so what I like, what the whole point is that I really think Globe thinks outside the box. We got some people that, that just have amazing ways of looking at, at how to, um, change what's normally done, but provide an option that is, is, is, is just good or better. Right. For, for less. And and that's really a neat team to be a part of. Um,

Drew Slocum: (23:52):

Throw, throw it against the wall and it sticks, it sticks,

Phil Gunning: (23:54):

.

Drew Slocum: (23:54):

Yeah. It's really neat. Yeah. That is fun to be a part of that. Yeah. Um, all right. Taking your globe hat off here for a little bit. Okay. Uh, yeah. Quick questions and then we'll get into the quick response round here in a second. Little, little new thing I'm gonna try out. But, uh, one of the big questions, I, you know, I've known you for years, but who, who's your, who's your industry mentor? You know, and you've been fire protection for quite a few years here.

Phil Gunning: (24:21):

Wow. That goes, that goes way back, you know, you know, that different people affect you along your path of, of development. And mine just started at wpi. Um, you know, I, I had professors there, you know, one, one Nick Dempsey, who was just, uh, the passion he had just rubbed off on you and it made you want to learn. Um, but they were amazing group. Um, I'm a little biased cuz that's all I know. Yeah. But amazing group. So we started there, but when I got into consulting, um, ward Cuomo, and, and if anyone knows Ward, uh, unfortunately just re recently passed away, but he was a major influencer on me along with Jerry Schultz, who was part of the company. Yeah. And they, they really made me understand how to look at something from different perspectives and, you know, like I was saying from the stakeholders point of view. Right. And, and if you can do that, that's, it's only gonna make you more of a resource. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (25:22):

At the end, they were fire protection

Phil Gunning: (25:23):

Engineers. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But then when it got into, um, you know, Tyco was a big part of my, of my development and guys like James Gobo who, you know, he, he's just infectious, infectious, you know, when you're around him, he's

Drew Slocum: (25:36):

A mentor of mine. Ah,

Phil Gunning: (25:37):

He's, he was amazing. Um, mark Senon, who has such a passion for, for the industry was huge in my development. And of course, Kevin Mon, who's now my boss, um, along with Cliff Hartford, I could keep going. I mean, there are, I I I give credit where credit is due and a lot of people deserve credit for, for where I am today.

Drew Slocum: (25:58):

Great. Great. Well, uh, getting into that, let's, uh, wrap it up here. I wanna wrap this up with a little quick response round. Uh, I don't wanna gear towards sprinkler too much here. See, I I don't

Phil Gunning: (26:09):

Even know what these questions

Drew Slocum: (26:10):

Are gonna be. I know you don't. This is interesting. Uh, fire protection podcast. Uh, we're gonna do a lot more than just sprinkler on here. Fire alarm suppression and, you know, being in spec point, a lot of internet technologies and new, new waves coming into the industry. So, um, so quick response around, I'm gonna give you two, two answers and it's gotta be quick. You can't explain it, you know, or you can explain it a little bit , and it depends is an answer, but you can only use that once

Phil Gunning: (26:42):

. So many things depend on, all right. All right, let's give

Drew Slocum: (26:44):

It a shot. All right. First one, uh, uh, a concealed white sprinkler or a custom recessed, custom painted recess sprinkler and say it's in your house or, you know, maybe you're, if you're design in an office building.

Phil Gunning: (27:01):

All right. So I can only use it depends once Yeah. I'm gonna try to stay away from that one on this. So if you're looking at it from a, an aesthetic need, you know, so if you don't want to see the sprinkler, and of course you go concealed, right? Yeah. Um, I, I think it's a little bit better, especially if you have kids, you know, you're not gonna be, uh, the chance of actually getting that sprinkler to operate by physical Sure. Problems takes a little more effort with a concealed versus a, a recess. So aesthetically, I would say the concealed is, is a lot nicer. Um, and, and it works. They, they work, uh, similarly, but if it comes down to, let's say, the need to have a quick response sprinkler versus, uh, standard if you need quick, then some places like FM don't recognize Ah, good point.

(27:54)
A concealed sprinkler as as quick response. Right. So knowing who your authorities are, who has an influence on, on approving a a design can impact of course, which route you go. But I think the whole purpose of those sprinklers coming into the market was for aesthetic reasons. And, and so, um, I would go with the itch with the concealed the inch. Well, okay. No, no, no. Hey, thanks. Can I, can I throw that in there? Yeah, throw it in. You told me to take the globe hat off, but you know, when it comes to, you know, a concealed sprinkler, every manufacturer offers one. Right? Right. So now you gotta dive into what makes one different from the other. And we do provide what's called the inch. And so the whole point of that is that the scutch itself, um, has an inch, it's in it's one inch in depth.

(28:43)
So that, let's say the installer goes in, installs your sprinkler in the drop ceiling or at the ceiling, and for some reason, uh, another trade comes in or, or you know, the, the ceiling changes in elevation, right? Whether it's due to weight or whatever reason. If that ceiling starts to lower an elevation from when the ins the installing contractor put his recessed head, I mean his flush sprinkler in, then what the inch does is that the scutch in itself allows that flex in the ceiling to be greater than, than what would be allowed for a competition. So it actually allows you to get into the threads of the housing when that ceiling drops more and more up to an inch. Right, right, right. And, and sag, that sag and, and that's where you think of the entire project, Hey, it's installed, but at the end of the day, it's gotta be blessed to get your CO and if you have missing cover plates, then, then you're gonna be dinged on your, your inspection or your final. So knowing we could take some of that headache out of having someone, if it didn't, if that scotch and couldn't get into the housing cuz it was just too far away due to the sag, then the only way to fix that is either fix the elevation of the ceiling or, or drop your, you know, get up to your hangers and drop your pipe a little bit. Right, right. Yep. So this is has been a very popular product, you know, because of that. Yeah, that's good. Field adjustability.

Drew Slocum: (30:07):

So that wasn't a quick response, but we'll, uh, keep going here. . Um, all right. This is near and dear to my heart cuz I started out my career with Tyco with this, uh, dry pipe valves, low pressure or standard pressure.

Phil Gunning: (30:23):

It depends.

Drew Slocum: (30:24):

I'm using, I'm using the, it

Phil Gunning: (30:25):

Depends on that one boy one so much affects fluid delivery time, uh, which is what dry systems need to be designed to do. Right. So depending on your occupancy, that's gonna dictate how much time you have to get water from the trip valve to your operated sprinkler. Yeah. And so depending on the incoming water pressure, the pipe routing and volume, uh, the K factor on a, on a system, um, whether or not you have an accelerator or not, of course, uh, you know, if we take the accelerator out, we're talking about low pressure versus standard, then sometimes it's better to have less pressure in the system, but sometimes it's better to have more. And, and it's, it's, you know, like you said outta tyco's days, they have their fluid delivery time program, which really illustrated, uh, or made people aware that low pressure isn't always the best option.

(31:18)
Right. Um, especially when you have, uh, let's say, you know, a tree system that has a a, a feed Maine and then splits off to, um, you know, in either direction of your cross, then feeding basically two separate trees. If you have more pressure in your system, then that doesn't allow once water starts flowing and filling the pipe, that higher pressure in the system that didn't activate actually prevents more water from entering that piping network. Right. Then it pushes, it pushes to the other system. Right, right. Yeah. To get out. So in that situation, higher pressures work better. So it's really difficult to, um, just tell a designer always go low because that's a it depends. Yeah. , yeah, that's a I'm using it.

Drew Slocum: (32:06):

Um, yeah, that's a good answer. It depends . Um,

Phil Gunning: (32:11):

But if you, if you think about products that you can change a Sure, you know, um, you know, a component that allows you to go from low to standard, then look at manufacturers. Cuz our trim piping does allow you to Oh,

Drew Slocum: (32:27):

That's interesting. Change that. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I mean, the low pressure, you know, that I've seen in industry, I, I'm, you know, fluid delivery is very important. But I almost think a little bit more important than is, is I tm if, if, if you have too many components in the system, if you make it overcomplicated, something's gonna fail.

Phil Gunning: (32:47):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (32:47):

It's not every time, but if you look at the chances are the chances, sure. The chances are greater. So the simpler the system, like just back to the US ummc, the simpler the system. Less failure points. Yeah. Less leak points,

Phil Gunning: (33:00):

Peace of mind. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (33:03):

Um, iPhone or Android,

Phil Gunning: (33:06):

,

Drew Slocum: (33:08):

,

Phil Gunning: (33:09):

I don't care. Whatever you like. I know. I, to be honest, I am not tech savvy enough to give you a, a pro and con on that. So,

Drew Slocum: (33:19):

Yeah.

Phil Gunning: (33:19):

Uh, what's next? My favorite color?

Drew Slocum: (33:21):

No. Beer, whiskey or wine?

Phil Gunning: (33:23):

Oh, bourbon for me, man.

Drew Slocum: (33:25):

Bourbon. All right. All right. Beer, whiskey. Um, and then finally, and before wrapping this up, is it true you did a fire protection seminar for a bunch of moms here in Westerly, Rhode Island,

Phil Gunning: (33:36):

? Yes, I did. And so

Drew Slocum: (33:40):

I, I want to hear this story cause uh, a little birdie told me to ask you about it.

Phil Gunning: (33:45):

Thanks Trace. So yeah, what my wife had asked me to do was just talk about household fire safety, um, you know, things that, that just peace of mind, whether it's what, what do you do when you have a, a grease fire in your kitchen? Right? So many people want to throw something on it and, and the best thing to do is just cover it, you know? So have a have a cover that's bigger than your biggest pan or pot and just have it somewhere. So if a fire does break out, just snuff it out. Right. But when we started talking about required smoke detection where you should have smoke detectors. Yeah. You know, I, I had a diagram showing people where they go and, and afterwards my wife comes up to me, she's like, you know what? We don't have half the amount of smoke detectors that you told everyone they should have .

(34:29)
I'm like, I know, but, you know, smoke detectors are so important. And I do have 'em in places where, where it's most important. I have a very small house, but, um, it, it just comes down to when you're aware of what causes fires, then you're, you're more prone to not have 'em. So that's where I Yeah. Your kitchen put my focus on. Yeah. Making sure things are, are tidied up. Uh, and, and don't present a fire hazard. So I see so many people, you know, I, I walked into Buddy's house and he had all this tissue paper right near his furnace and I said, I don't know if that's the best idea. , keep that. So those are the things that, you know, I, yeah. I keep out Every time I put my girls to bed, I, I tell 'em, make a clear path in case you gotta get up and get, get out fast. Cuz they have so many tripping hazards in their room. Yeah. And they know exactly. I go, you know, before they get into bed, it's a ritual. Yeah. You know, so it's having a, an awareness or, or, or just conscious of, of what to do in a given situation or to prevent one is just as good

Drew Slocum: (35:28):

As having, I think it's a nice, uh, YouTube show. You could, you could do your yourself. Yeah. Phil's Home Tips. Phil's Home

Phil Gunning: (35:35):

Tips. .

Drew Slocum: (35:37):

Well, uh, wanna, wanna thank you again for, uh, getting on this podcast. Uh, we're gonna do a lot more in the fire protection realm, um, you know, touch on, touch on everything. And again, this is just the start of it. So, uh, yeah. Thanks again. No, I had a good time. I appreciate it. Yeah, anytime. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (35:55):

This has been episode two of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I thank everybody for listening in and I appreciate all the great support I've had on this so far. Again, this is the first of many to have conversations with leaders in the fire protection industry. Make sure to follow [email protected] and all our relevant social media channels. Looking forward to next time. Take care.

An introduction to the Fire Protection Podcast starts with 3 of the 4 co-founders (Padraic Doyle - CEO, Drew Slocum - VP of Bus Dev, & Jennifer Doyle - VP of Customer Success) of Inspect Point. They get into where the idea spurred from and how they got into the business. Drew gives a sneak peek into what topics and discussions he will be doing over the next few months.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode one of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I'm here at the headquarters of Inspect Point here in Troy, New York here with three of the four co-founders of Inspect Point, Pat Doer, Pat Doyle. Sorry, Pat . No problem. Jennifer Doyle and myself. Drew Slocum.

Drew Slocum: (00:26):

Slocum. Same last name.

Drew Slocum: (00:27):

Yeah, same last name, same last name. Um, wanted to give a little introduction to the Fire Protection Podcast, what we're gonna be discussing our background. Um, you want me to go first?

Pat Doyle: (00:39):

I, I can go first. Uh, uh, Drew, thanks for the intro. This is Pat. I'm CEO of Inspect Point. I have a technology background. Uh, I've been in the software industry for, I'm dating myself probably 15 years, maybe longer. I don't even know. Uh, and yeah. Uh, Jenn, you want to go?

Jennifer Doyle: (01:00):

Yeah, sure. So, um, I'm Jennifer Doyle. Um, I'm the, a co-founder and VP of Customer Success and Spec Point. Um, I have a little, an interesting background come from both education and software, which I guess blends quite nicely together for my role of training and support here. Um, but I probably have a good combination of education and software, what, like 10 years or so Yeah. About that.

Pat Doyle: (01:27):

So, yeah. So, so, uh, Drew, uh, you're the host of the podcast. This is our first episode. Um, Hey, now. Hey, now. Hey, now, uh, we think we're going to, uh, turn the tables interview you a little bit so people know what they're gonna get in future episodes. So, uh, drew, how long, when did we meet?

Drew Slocum: (01:48):

90, 99.

Pat Doyle: (01:50):

99 When I was a freshman? Yeah. Yeah. Like the Prince song?

Drew Slocum: (01:54):

Yes.

Pat Doyle: (01:55):

. So, 99. And were you in fire protection in 99? No,

Drew Slocum: (02:00):

We were in RPI

Pat Doyle: (02:01):

We were, yeah. You were a freshman. I was a sophomore, junior, sophomore. RPI Yeah. Yep. So

Drew Slocum: (02:06):

RPI if anybody knows, it's, it's Rennselear Polytechnic, uh, big competitor to Worcester Polytechnic, which is big in fire protection, um mm-hmm.

Pat Doyle: (02:16):

,

Drew Slocum: (02:17):

You know.

Pat Doyle: (02:17):

Yep. So then I, I, I have to say it was maybe 2000. When do you think I met you? And at the time I knew nothing about fire protection, and you were told me that you had just entered this industry. What year was that?

Drew Slocum: (02:32):

So I entered the industry in 2000, late 2003, 2004, with Tyco. Uh, one of, obviously the big manufacturer out there. Um, and as well, simplex Grinnell, they own Simplex Grinnell now part of Johnson Controls, but,

Pat Doyle: (02:47):

Um, and we have a little connection to the original Simplex Grinnell, right?

Drew Slocum: (02:51):

Yes. So we went, yeah. Yeah. We, uh, Frederick Grinnell was a, a alumni of, of rpi. Yeah. Which is kinda cool.

Pat Doyle: (03:00):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (03:00):

So two, I always, I always point that out to every WPI in Maryland grad Yep. That the founder of Fire Protection started

Pat Doyle: (03:07):

Rpi. There you go. So 2004, you're working for Tyco and you're in Arizona at this time, or where are you?

Drew Slocum: (03:13):

No, I was in Houston, Texas, uh, manufacturing, uh, dry valves for, for Tyco at the time. Uh, worked my way through the Tyco ranks, doing manufacturing, engineering, process engineering, uh, moved to Rio.

Pat Doyle: (03:26):

But you'd had nothing, your education was nothing. Fire protection, right?

Drew Slocum: (03:30):

Nothing. Fire protection, industrial.

Pat Doyle: (03:31):

It was industrial. Industrial engineering. Yeah. Yeah. So how, how, what's the leap? How do you go from industrial management, engineering and RPI to working for Tyco in fire production?

Drew Slocum: (03:42):

So working through the ranks in Tyco as a manufacturing engineer. Uh, got my Six Sigma black belt, which I always like to

Pat Doyle: (03:51):

, put in demos, put in.

Drew Slocum: (03:52):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I then went to work, uh, at their Air Arizona, uh, sprinkler pipe mill in Arizona. When was that? That was in 2006 timeframe. And that's,

Pat Doyle: (04:06):

So you went with the dry valve in 2004? Yeah. Right. And then at the, at the time, were you thinking, this is my career, I love fire protection, or were you thinking like, this is, I just graduated. This is a

Drew Slocum: (04:17):

Job I was manufacturing. I actually didn't know what the dry valve did. Yeah. I just knew how to make it. I knew all the plunger assemblies, a clapper on the inside. Yep. Um, so I didn't really know what it did. So that at, after that I did a couple other things with valves and Tyco. Then I moved to Reno, Nevada and worked on their, um, control valve plant, which it wasn't fire protection, it was more on the, uh, coal

Pat Doyle: (04:40):

Industry. So before Arizona was Reno,

Drew Slocum: (04:43):

Before Arizona was Reno. Reno, yeah. Yes. But I was an, uh, eh, and s manager, environmental health and safety manager there, where I managed not only the fire protection, but all the OSHA and, uh, facilities.

Pat Doyle: (04:56):

Uh, and how big was that facility in Reno?

Drew Slocum: (04:58):

Uh, there were probably 120 employees.

Pat Doyle: (05:00):

Bigger than Houston, or,

Drew Slocum: (05:02):

Uh, about the same size. Yeah. They're both valve plants.

Pat Doyle: (05:04):

Yeah. So when you work at a big place like Tyco, do you, do they say, okay, drew, we want this position is open, or do you see the position and you go for it and you're like, I'm gonna move from Houston to Reno? Like, how does that work?

Drew Slocum: (05:18):

Well, I was in the management leadership program within Tyco. Um, so I was set at least for two, two locations with probably three different jobs. So they tried to kind of prime you for management mm-hmm. at some point. Mm-hmm. . So, uh, at that point, at the end of two years, they were, you know, you had to find a job at that point. So I became the environmental health and safety manager, uh, in Reno. And eh, and s OSHA is

Pat Doyle: (05:46):

A, the biggest little city. The

Drew Slocum: (05:47):

Biggest little city, yes. In the world. Yeah. Um, great town. Love it. Still love it. Um, but yeah, eh, and s wasn't, wasn't really for me. I, you know, OSHA was like a, it was like a no-win job. I still love dealing with it, but didn't want to get on that side. So I was looking, and there was another Tyco plant in Arizona. Mm-hmm. , which manufactured

Pat Doyle: (06:10):

Pipe where? In Arizona?

Drew Slocum: (06:11):

Uh, Phoenix. Right in downtown. Yep. Um, so downtown Arizona, uh, did a bunch of stuff with them. Did my six Sigma with them, got involved in, uh, process development. And then at some point, uh, because there's a lot of housing construction out west, uh, they're like, they invited me out the golf course one day. I haven't told it.

Pat Doyle: (06:34):

So ,

Drew Slocum: (06:35):

Did they know

Jennifer Doyle: (06:35):

What they were getting themselves in for? They

Drew Slocum: (06:37):

Invited you to the golf? Well, they would always invite me to the golf tournaments because, you know, they wanted to win. Yeah. So, uh,

Jennifer Doyle: (06:43):

So they knew what they were getting

Drew Slocum: (06:44):

. So, you know, after a few months, they're like, Hey, we have this sales position open up, you know, you know, the engineering side, you could play golf. And a lot of those deals out there were done on the golf course mm-hmm. . So I did my first stint in sales.

Pat Doyle: (06:58):

Yeah. Out in, so I mean, you were always an outgoing guy, you know, always a personal person, but like at the heart, you were always an engineer when I knew you at R P I, right? Yeah. So what was, you know, you do see people occasionally or making the jump, I think engineers make great sales, sales reps. Uh, I mean, what were you thinking where you're like, this is, I'm gonna try this, and maybe it'll work out where you're like, this is a cool opportunity, like in your mind where you're like, this is where I want my career to go? Or were you kind of unsure if this is gonna be what you wanted to do?

Drew Slocum: (07:31):

No, the, the general manager of, uh, allied Tube and Conduit, or, uh, allied at the time when Tyco still owned them, um, pretty much told me when I was a Six Sigma black belt, either you gotta make a decision, you either go operations and go the manufacturing and plant route, or you jump into sales and go technical, or kind of go that route. Mm-hmm. . So he's, he's, it was a pretty much a fork in the road at that point. And, um, I, I like to play golf. Yeah. , .

Pat Doyle: (08:02):

Well, I mean, I think if anyone, uh, listening has got a demo for Dr from Drew for Inspect Point, they would know that you, you managed to be technical, but not being overbearing about it. Yeah. So do you think, you know, I, I know we're jumping around, but to be a good sales rep, having that technical background, do you think, you know, how important is that? Is that, especially in fire protection, right? Like we talk about it a lot, like being able to talk wire protection and everything. Like, is that 99% of the job as a sales rep in the industry, or especially for people out there are listening who might be sales reps in the industry?

Drew Slocum: (08:37):

Right. Uh, good point. So yeah, you have to know the technical lingo especially, and, uh, we didn't finish my, my story. Yeah,

Pat Doyle: (08:45):

We'll get to it. , we're jumping around.

Jennifer Doyle: (08:47):

I know. I haven't heard this story. I wanna hear it.

Pat Doyle: (08:49):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (08:49):

. Anyway, uh, you do need some technical background. You have to at least know kind of the lingo of some, it does help a lot. You could be a, a, a, a great salesperson on, on that alone if you're in an industry or if you're just a great salesperson, you know how to listen to people. And a lot of what sales is, is listening. Mm-hmm. versus talking. Mm-hmm. .

Pat Doyle: (09:10):

So definitely. Um, so your approach to move, uh, to essentially switch roles, potentially forking in the road, six Sigma, you gotta go one way or another. Uh, do you remember, you know, your first, the first sales call you did, do you remember like what that was like?

Drew Slocum: (09:28):

Yeah, I actually, one, one of the first sales calls I had, I, I took over the, um, territory of Las Vegas for, for Allied at the time. Vegas

Pat Doyle: (09:36):

Baby Vegas.

Drew Slocum: (09:37):

Vegas , which is, uh, it was booming at the time, 2007. Sure. Even early 2008, um, booming. I was, I was selling, uh, a actually steel studs, uh, worked for, worked for a division of, um, Tyco called Stud Co. Mm-hmm. , great, great name, . I was not there anymore. Anyway, um, uh, I, I literally got beat up in a meeting, not physically beat up, but there were three people just screaming at me about, uh, just the delivery, the pricing, technical aspects. And I knew very technically of how the product was produced and where it went and, and all that, but didn't know how to handle sometimes how a, uh, how to handle that attack from a, from a potential customer. So, um, that was one of the first challenges I ended up, you know, skating my way around that, that nice. And getting back to them . So, uh, after getting through that, you know, uh, kind of launched myself into sales.

Pat Doyle: (10:35):

That's great. So when did you start? So you're still going along trying to figure it out. When does fire protection come back around?

Drew Slocum: (10:43):

So, in 2008, I believe, uh, there was a big Vegas, uh, project called Echelon that shut down, fired two, laid off 400 workers within a day. At that point, my, my boss at the time was like, you better, you know, there's something coming. And this is like two months before the crash happened. Mm-hmm. in two, in September, October of 2008. So at that point, I started looking and there was a position within Tyco, uh, Tyco Fire Products in, um, New York, New York, New Jersey. Uh, interviewed for that, um, great mentors, Charlie Ubon, uh, who, who was my boss for, for five or so years there, uh, interviewed me and, um, you know, didn't really know much about fire protection or sprinklers. I knew about the piping and manufacturing and the dry valves, but didn't know too much fire protection. So, uh, got thrown to the wolves in New York City. So, . So,

Pat Doyle: (11:40):

So that seems to be like a, a recurring theme in your, your career, right? Is mentors, right? Like, it seems like you've had mentors almost every step of the way. Is that safe to say?

Drew Slocum: (11:52):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every few years. Every year,

Pat Doyle: (11:54):

Really. Yeah. And do you still keep in touch with these guys and girls, or, you know, like, is that, do you try to at least, or Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (12:01):

Yeah. All my mentors, I mean, I, I, uh, uh, I, I'm actually gonna have a few of 'em on the podcast, so.

Pat Doyle: (12:07):

Nice. That's great. Um,

Drew Slocum: (12:09):

Episode two and four, two of my mentors, Charlie's still a mentor. I talk to him, talk to him a lot. Um, Jim Dooley at Vikings. So there's, there's been a lot of mentors even aside of that, which we'll have on the podcast. Yeah.

Pat Doyle: (12:22):

And all, so all four of our co-founders, Phil and I here, you went home early today, , , we're all from, from essentially upstate New York. Mm-hmm. , uh, a lot different weather than Reno, Arizona, Vegas, Houston. Yeah. We went to college in upstate New York. Yes. So you get the, you get the id, the seed planted in your head, Hey, it might be a good idea to go back to the East Coast. What goes through your head at that point? Like, is that an excitement? Is that, you know, oh, man, I'm going back to where I started. Like, like what, what's going through your head at, at the Drew Slocum of, what is this? 2009, 2008. 2008, yeah. Post financial crisis. Yeah, yeah.

Drew Slocum: (13:04):

Post Financial. So, um, and the construction market was taking a hit, uh, at that time. I just, I looked at what their market share was in New York City, and, and their product line, Ty was always great at, at producing great products. Yeah. So, um, didn't, you know, didn't question it there, uh, you know, but when you arrived in New York on an interview and you just look up and just like this huge city, you know, there's a lot of potential if you're the number one, uh, if you're the number one manufacturer trying to sell product, and you have a great product line, but you're like three or four in the market, that's, there's just huge room for growth. So mm-hmm. , um, you know, jumping right into New York City was a, was a challenge. Sprinkler

Pat Doyle: (13:48):

Too. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (13:48):

Sprinkler. Sprinkler, right. It was all sprinkler. I got involved in some suppression and Yeah. Business development while I was there, so, yeah.

Pat Doyle: (13:55):

Yeah. Yeah. So 2009 you moved back to, you moved to Brooklyn. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (14:01):

Right. Yeah. 2009, Brooklyn. Yeah. Yep.

Pat Doyle: (14:03):

Sounds sprinkler. Yep. Trying to figure that out. , right? .

Drew Slocum: (14:07):

Yeah. I didn't know much about it, but, uh, a lot of mentors, again, along the way, but you learn quick and, uh, Tyco's, Tyco's training Center, I'm getting a lot of shout, shout out to Tyco, but, uh, they did really train. They trained us well. Yeah. Um, and up in their Cranson Rhode Island facility, uh, Phil Gunning, who I, I'm gonna have on the podcast, uh, you know, one of the head trainers, they really put you through and teach you, not just Tyco, but just in general, fire protection. So you get a good technical basis if you are a, an engineer can talk that technical, just, it helps you sell the product

Pat Doyle: (14:44):

Even further. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, we talked about, that's like a recurring theme of great sales reps is be able to, uh, not walk to walk, talk, to talk. Right. Especially in a town like New York. Is that true or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. , they're gonna call, they're gonna call

Drew Slocum: (14:58):

You out, they'll call you out, they'll call you out. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta be ready for it. And, uh, you know, a lot of it was is price, so they would beat you up. So if you don't, if you don't know kind of the pricing structure, how, how things, uh, go together in a fire protection system and what's worth money, what's not worth money, what you can negotiate with. Yeah. Um, you know, it all goes together and Yep. You learn that over the way.

Pat Doyle: (15:22):

So Phil, other co-founder is not here. Him and I worked at ca, a large company, 20,000 people. Jen's worked at, you know, medium to large, uh, institutions like Russell Sage and some local companies around the way. Some companies too, around the, you look, you work Phil, uh, Phil Drew, you worked at a giant, is it fair to say conglomerate? Yep. Yep. How did that feel? Did you feel how, I mean, I, you know, this is, obviously Tyco has changed throughout the years, but, uh, Tyco in 2009, like, did you feel a cog in a machine? Did you feel like it was a, you know, regional style office? Like, how, you know, what was like that, like, for people listening who haven't been part of a huge corporation like that, like what is it to work for like a Tyco? It,

Drew Slocum: (16:05):

It was, it was great when I worked there, it was a good team. Um, it was a good team. There were a lot of great products, a lot of great people that work for the company. And, and there still is there, there definitely is. But big corporations are, are driven obviously by, you know, the quarterly shareholders mm-hmm. . So, you know, they go through fluctuations with that, whether who they're owned by, uh, what shareholders are, are influencing that. So, um, didn't really see too much of that at that, at that level, but I knew it was there, obviously. So, um, it was great. There was a lot of resources. There was training, there was, uh, uh, great marketing for the product. So I, I, I got out in front of a lot of customers, really learned the market. You

Pat Doyle: (16:49):

Had that support, a huge support staff behind.

Drew Slocum: (16:52):

Yeah. But I was, I was the person in New York after really a year or two, so I was the person. So, um, I was kind of running my own, essentially business within a, a big conglomerate, but I was a person in New York.

Pat Doyle: (17:07):

So at this point, it's 2010, it's not 1950. You're not gonna be with Tyco forever. Eventually. How does Viking fit in?

Drew Slocum: (17:16):

So, uh, I almost, I almost took a job with Tyco in, uh, the west coast for, uh, I was doing a lot of engineer consulting work and just, uh, working on big projects, uh, getting material specified. And, uh, they wanted me to move into a, a business development role, which there was an opening in the, uh, western half of the country to, to handle California in the whole western region. It, you know, just didn't work out. It didn't work out. And, uh, you know, I wanted to see my career evolve because I knew, you know, this, this wasn't it. Yeah. So, um, Viking came along and, you know, it has a lot of great product. When I went to first, you know, what happened, you know, it's not a, a shot at Tyco or anything, but there was just a lull in product development within Tyco, and a lot of selling is having good technology mm-hmm. to go to sell the market to Yeah. Like we do at in spec point. Yeah. If we're not, if we're not developing product, then our customers are gonna leave and go somewhere else. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, it's very important. And, uh, so at that point, Viking was making a big push. They had a lot of great sprinklers out there. They have a great business model. They still do. And, uh, so they, they kind of weaned me in, or, you know, yeah. Mm-hmm. pulled me in and, uh, I ran their operation

Pat Doyle: (18:35):

Still in New York,

Drew Slocum: (18:35):

Right? Yeah. Still in New York. Yeah. Uh, only New York, uh, New York City, long Island. And, uh, ran their operation in, in that territory for about four years doing similar, similar things that I did at Tyco. Great. But, uh, I, I was more on the business side, day to day, uh, making sure product got got to the customers. It was a little different model than Tyco. Yeah. Similar industry.

Pat Doyle: (19:00):

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So, you know, we, you know, I think a good segue, like we have plenty of time to talk about Inspect Point, who we are. You know, you probably know who we are if you're listening to this podcast and we have time to talk about how Jennifer, Phil, myself, drew, all got into Inspect Point. But why don't you give people just a little idea of what this podcast is gonna be about, because, you know, maybe I drop in and Jen drops in and Phil drops in every now and again, but you're gonna be the one interviewing all these mentors. Yeah. All the people you know, in your career. Uh, just give a little preview, why, if you are listening to this episode one, why you should listen to episode one to 100.

Drew Slocum: (19:43):

Yeah. I, I, I, you know, you brought up the idea, you know, a while ago, and honestly, a big, uh, uh, first person that got into this is, is Chris Logan out out of Ontario. Yep.

Pat Doyle: (19:55):

Mm-hmm. Love Chris's podcast,

Drew Slocum: (19:57):

Podcast, podcast is

Pat Doyle: (19:58):

Awesome. Love, love Chris's.

Drew Slocum: (19:59):

Um, he's doing a great job with that. Uh, you know, I talked to him early on. We were on, I was on the podcast and, and, and did something early with him, and I've been talking to him every month just of ideas. So, again, more, more avenues to get our message out there. But, uh, you know, we want fire protection because inspect points, kind of the full realm of fire protection, fire alarm, sprinkler, obviously, um, suppression and even some of the new digital technologies that are coming out. Um, not, not just in inspect point, but just kind of the, the future of, uh, internet of Things and how contractors are reacting to, to the changes in the market. So I wanna bring some lit, uh, industry leaders on, um, to talk about what they think is coming and what's already here. Talk about their products.

(20:49)
You know, you could go to a, a, a presentation, um, or a webinar or, or anything like at a, at a conference, or if they're doing a, uh, something at your office where you get an industry leader there, you might get them there every, I don't know, three to five years, but with a podcast, it's, it's broadcast to the world, essentially. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So why not, why not get the, the people that are involved in fire protection on the podcast? Um, uh, you know, I, a future podcast that we're gonna do, which we've already recorded,

Pat Doyle: (21:22):

By the way, ,

Drew Slocum: (21:23):

Um, John Industry, so great. John, John Mackey, one of my mentors mentioned a, uh, uh, is a great point be because he mentioned like podcasting. You can listen, you can listen to it in the car. Sure. On your way from an appointment. Yeah. Appointment into an appointment, or while you're designing a fire protection project, you know, throw it on your headphones. You can, you can just be listening to it. So, um, again, wanna get fire protection leaders on talk about, it's very informal. Mm-hmm. . So,

Pat Doyle: (21:52):

Uh, you could probably tell by listening to this podcast, it's very informal.

Drew Slocum: (21:55):

Informal. I ask them what beers they like, you know? Yeah.

Pat Doyle: (22:00):

So, I mean, that's great. I think, um, you know, at Inspect point, you know, we're a hundred percent focused on fire protection. So like, drew to close up, tell people one, if they want to get a demo from Inspect point, how they get in touch with you. And two, if they wanna be on a podcast, how can people reach you? What's your email?

Drew Slocum: (22:18):

So, uh, pretty simple. Uh, drew inspect point.com. Um, if you want a demo, please reach out and obviously would love feedback on the podcast. Uh, what kind of topics, um, you know, different people to have on, you know, you know, my background is sprinkler suppression. We've gotten to alarm, obviously pretty, pretty quickly at inspect point, so I'm trying to reach out to more of the alarm side and security side. So, um, yeah, really looking forward to it. It's gonna be, uh, I've already prerecorded a few, a few podcasts, so, um, I'm already into it a few episodes, so,

Pat Doyle: (22:55):

And they're good. I've listened to a Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (22:57):

Yeah.

Pat Doyle: (22:57):

I like, yeah, they're good. Great. . All right. Thanks everyone.

Drew Slocum: (23:01):

Yeah. Yeah. Keep,

Pat Doyle: (23:02):

Keep in touch. Yep. Subscribe, hit that subscribe button in the top right, and, uh, yeah. Thank

Drew Slocum: (23:07):

You. All the social media channels on Inspect Point, we'll, we'll be posting everything there,

Pat Doyle: (23:12):

So. All right.

Drew Slocum: (23:13):

See you guys soon.