Wow, I can’t believe it. This is the last episode of our second season of Focus Forward. We started the season off with Rachel Hulstein-Lowe who joined me to talk about transitions and how to make them a little easier. We explored memory, college students, grief, cognitive flexibility, and much, much more. You supported us by downloading our new episodes, reviewing us on apple podcasts and Spotify, sending me emails of support, and subscribing to our podcast newsletter. My heart is truly full from it all. Thank you! We'll be back with more episodes for you early this fall 🍁 In the meantime....

Today, we’re ending season two with an exploration of a really important Executive Function skill - organization. Although there are many dimensions to organization, I’ve dedicated this episode to just three that are particularly important: space, data, and belongings. Discover new strategies, approaches, and tools you can use to become more organized and live a more fulfilling life overall!

Thank you again for your support and for being part of the Focus Forward community! Here are the show notes from today’s episode:

Finding Motivation to Get Organized

Decisional Balance Sheet for helping make a decision to change behavior: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uwhjq0HZhGUdr6_Pfpq5U2flPjdb5jcLGmA54HNiO_c/edit?usp=sharing

Cassandra Aarsen’s Organization Quiz: Clutterbug.me

How to Help Your Child Get Organized: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-help-your-child-get-organized

The Anxious, Stressed High School Student: An Executive Function Link: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/the-anxious-stressed-high-school-student-an-executive-function-link

Gaining Calm by Organizing: How to Clear Your Space & Mind: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/meditation-in-organization-how-to-clear-your-space-mind

Email Organization Inspiration

Best Practices for Outlook: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/best-practices-for-outlook-f90e5f69-8832-4d89-95b3-bfdf76c82ef8

Get started with Gmail for Google Workspace: https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9260550?hl=en

Sort’d, a Beyond BookSmart coach-recommended Chrome extension for Gmail organization: https://www.sortd.com/

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Wow, I can’t believe it. This is the last episode of our second season of Focus Forward. We started the season off with Rachel Hulstein-Lowe who joined me to talk about transitions and how to make them a little easier. We explored memory, college students, grief, cognitive flexibility, and much, much more. You supported us by downloading our new episodes, reviewing us on apple podcasts and spotify, sending me emails of support, and subscribing to our podcast newsletter. My heart is truly full from it all. Thank you! Today we’re ending season two with an exploration of a really important executive function skill - organization. A lot of what we see on social media and television might give the impression that organization is mostly arranging your stuff in rainbow order. I’m totally not dissing this - I’m always down for rainbow order, but it’s important to know that the EF skill of organization goes far, far beyond that.

Organized thoughts helps us get our needs met and our points across.

Organized writing helps the reader understand our message, gets better grades or more recognition at work and has a bigger impact on our audience.

Organized living and work spaces make it easier to find things which helps us stay more emotionally regulated and feel less stress or anxiety. I mean, have any of you felt like you’re gonna just lose it when you need to leave NOW and you can’t find your keys? That’s not just me, right?

When we are organized, we are able to work more efficiently and effectively and find it easier to get started on our work.

Organization keeps our computers and phones less full of digital clutter, leaving more storage space for the really important things.

Okay, I’ll stop now, but seriously, I could have a whole episode of me just listing all the ways that organization helps us. Because that would get boring and actually not be all that useful, today I’m going to narrow it down and just cover the skill of organizing our space, data, and belongings. I”ll take a look at three aspects of this: 1, how challenges with this aspect of organization can impact other EF areas, 2. What you can do before you get started with organization to make sure that your effort is really effective, and 3. Strategies that might help you get and stay organized.

How challenges with organization can impact other EF skills:

The impact of challenges with organization of our space, belongings, and data spread far beyond organization into other EF areas. Recognizing this impact can help you find the motivation to make some changes to the role organization plays in your life. Let’s take a look at some examples of how these challenges can play out.

Okay, so challenges with organization can make task initiation can be difficult. For example, if you know that it’s going to be a pain to find the paper you’ve been dreading working on because your schoolwork is not organized on your computer, it’s going to be all that much harder to get started. Or, if you need to work in your garden but your garden tools are not organized so you don’t know where your clippers or gloves are, it’s going to be much harder to get yourself out there to pull those weeds and harvest those beans. And this even applies to kids - I remember when my kids were little and the playroom was a big mess, they did not want to go in there to play, When we took the time to clean up at the end of each day, they were much more likely to go in and play the next day.

When our space and belongings are disorganized, it can impact our ability to pay attention and focus on what we’re doing. We might be trying to work but we get derailed when we have to stop to find things or get distracted by visual clutter on our desks. We can also miss important details when we’re not organized. Sometimes we may identify these struggles as just a focus problem, but you can see how your ability to focus and pay attention can be directly and negatively impacted by your stuff - tangible or digital.

Challenges with organization can also impact our time management. If we can’t find the thing we need to start, or it’s just too messy to get started, those activities will take way longer than we anticipate. With practice, we can generally predict how long certain activities will take, but we can’t predict how long it’ll take to find our car keys or clean off our desk. Starting from a place of organization makes it easier to more effectively manage our time.

And ultimately, struggling in many different EF areas will take a big hit on your confidence, self-esteem, and emotional regulation. Getting and staying organized won’t solve everything, but as we coaches see in our clients, it sure will help you feel better about yourself and reduce stress and anxiety, leaving more room in your brain and your physical space to work on other more rewarding stuff.

Okay, hopefully I’ve convinced you of the impact that challenges with organization can have on our lives. Let’s look at some actions we can take BEFORE we actually try to organize anything. I mean, you can jump ahead to putting things in rainbow order if you want, but I promise that if you take the time to do a little pre-game practice, you’ll be better at initiating and maintaining any organization system you set up for yourself.

A good starting place is to ask yourself “why?”. You’ve heard me talk about metacognition and the power of reflection before. Well, here’s a chance to practice it. It’s time to ask “Why are you motivated to get organized? Why are you even listening to this episode?” Simply asking the question can help start finding solutions that work. For me, much of my motivation is emotional regulation. You know my “can’t find your keys” example from earlier? I work very hard to stay organized so that I never have to deal with the emotional fall out from not being able to find something I need. It’s a big pet peeve of mine. And yes, I guess I could not have a system for keeping things organized and instead employ my emotional regulation strategies every time I can’t find my keys, but if I just stay more organized, then I naturally stay more regulated. Now, just ask my family how successful I am at knowing where my stuff is and not freaking out if I can’t find it….there may be some variance in answers, but I do think that I’ve really improved since I started working on it. Haha, if you’ve ever wondered if EF coaches are good at everything EF, well, here’s an example that proves we are not!

I learned a very cool tool from my colleague Lisa Wickenheiser, who will be sharing this as a coach panelist in our Back to School Relief Webinar next week on Wednesday, August 9. It’s called, “What? So What? Now What?”. Lisa explains “This tool can be tailored to individual needs; it can be as surface-level or deep as you’d like. The “What?” addresses the experience of the situation (what’s the context; what was the outcome; what was my role; how do I feel about it). The “So What?” allows us to consider the overall implications of all of those things. And the “What Next?” leads us to an action plan toward achievement.” I love this idea and can see how it can really help here. Try asking these questions in relation to your current organization system…..or lack thereof.

“What?” Might be “My room is so messy. I can’t see the floor because of all the clothes I didn’t put away.”

“So What” might be, “I can’t tell which clothes are clean or dirty so it’s taking me a long time to get ready in the morning which is making my parents mad”

“What Next” may lead to a decision - “it’s time to figure out a system for keeping my clothes organized and separated so I can find what I need when I need it. This could lead to me enjoying getting dressed instead of finding it stressful”

Let’s do another one.

“What?” might be “I have no system to organize my incoming work emails”

“So what?” might be “I’m missing important emails from my boss and this is holding up the project. It’s embarrassing and doesn’t reflect my true ability”

“What Next?” may lead to a plan for setting up email color coding, labels or folders and using filters. Also, setting aside time at the end of the workday to make sure nothing was overlooked.

Another tool that can help with making a decision about creating or changing your organization system is called the Decisional Balance Sheet. This tool is like a fancy pros and cons list. You create a matrix with Disadvantages and Advantages at the top and “changing” and “not changing” on the left. You then complete each corresponding quadrant, being sure to be really honest with yourself about changing and not changing how you approach organization. This tool can help you suss out why you are having trouble changing your organization system and help you find the motivation to change. If you’re more of a visual learner and you have no idea what I’m talking about, you can find a link in the show notes to an image so you can see what I mean.

Okay, one more before we move on to strategies. On her website clutterbug.me, organization expert Cassandra Aarssen has a great quiz that will tell you what kind of organization system might work best for you and will also help you understand why you might struggle with organization. She’s named the four types of organizers Bees, ladybugs, butterflies and crickets. Check it out! It’s fun and she’s really got some truly actionable suggestions and insight on what will work best for you. I took the quiz and it turns out I’m a cricket. If you take the quiz, email me and tell me what kind of bug you are!

Okay, so we’ve figured out why we want to make a change to our organization system and maybe what kind of bug we are. Now it’s time to take action. Or at least, time to start thinking about taking action.

Okay, so one thing that can get in the way of taking action is that there are about a billion ways to organize your stuff and not everything will work for everyone. It can be hard to know where to start. And sometimes what you try won’t be the right solution. And also, our needs change over time, so one thing might work for a while, but then suddenly, you’re struggling to keep up. I mean, even Marie Kondo had to admit that her system, which is fantastic, didn’t work as well for her once she had kids. But, don’t let that stop you, just try something, even if it’s a small change and then reflect on what does and doesn’t work and make changes from there. Hah, I’m making it sound easy. It’s not always easy, but try it! I’ll cheer you on!

Okay, so let’s check out a few strategies you might try.

A big challenge area for many students is backpack organization. Backpacks can be fun at first with all their pockets and zippers but it can also be overwhelming to manage it in an organized way. My best advice here is to keep any backpack organization system as simple as possible. Creating a list of what absolutely must go in your backpack is a good place to start. If you need to pack a small snack, period supplies, or other personal items, it can be helpful to contain those items in a smaller, zippered bag. Using folders or a binder to organize your class papers is key. And, again, simple is the way to go here. Try reducing the number of folders, notebooks or binders you carry. You may have to reassess and make changes to your schoolwork organization system after a couple weeks of school have passed, but starting from a place of simplicity is helpful. Another challenging aspect is maintaining the organization system you set up…..regularly cleaning out your backpack is a priority if you want it to stay organized. Stacking this habit with another one that you already do regularly can make it a little easier. And, as parents, we can scaffold our children’s habit-building by helping them clean out their backpacks at first and then backing off, little by little, until they’re ready to take it on themselves. A strategy we teach our school-aged clients is to treat their backpacks like a best friend. It may sound silly, but these bags really do support us like a best friend would. And best friends need love, kindness, and respect. How can we show this to our backpacks?

Okay, here’s a email and data organization tool from one of my adult clients, Michael. The second example I gave for the “What? So What? Now What?” tool was pulled directly from Michael’s experience. He was missing really important work emails and this was holding up projects and important processes. He also felt like it was not representative of his ability. Michael had already set up filters and color-coded flags on his incoming emails, but sometimes the important ones were still slipping through the cracks. After acknowledging that he IS human and this will happen sometimes, we started working on a system that could reduce the number of times it does happen. You might think his missing emails stems from challenges with attention, but what we determined was that he did not have an organized system for managing those emails and tasks. We borrowed an idea from James Clear in his book, Atomic Habits - he suggests thinking about “resetting” your space at the end of the day or when you’re done doing something so it’s ready for you the next time you enter that space. Michael created an “end of day reset”, we call it EDR for short. He made a list of all the things he could do at the end of a work day to set himself up for success the next day. He goes through his emails, checks his meeting notes for action items, makes sure any documents he created are filed correctly, and makes a list of what he needs to work on the next day, prioritizing the important tasks. He set a reminder to pop up on his computer at 4:30. The reminder has a list of the EDR steps for additional support and to lighten his mental load. Whenver I check in with Michael at a coaching session about his EDR and how it’s working for him, the look of happiness, relief, and satisfaction on his face tells me everything I need to know. This resetting strategy can be used for your physical space, too. Resetting my desk is how I end every work day. I know how much of a difference it makes for me the next day. I use that feeling as motivation to do it, even when I just want to be done.

A third tool that can be used by students and adults is the 3 tier file system. The name comes from those tiered racks you can keep on your desk to organize and file your papers, but the concept can apply to both our physical or digital stuff. Categorize things into three tiers or groups - papers can be grouped into need now, need later, recycling. That stuff in your basement? Keep, Donate, Throw away. Your kids’ clothes? What fits now, What they’ll grow into, and what to pass on to others. Keep it simple with three categories and you’ll find it easier to use.

Okay, so now that we’ve got our stuff organized, how do we maintain it? This is often the hardest part of managing the EF skill of organization. You can use reminders on your phone or computer, ask for help from a family member, friend, or your coach, put out visual reminders like a post-it note, stack what you need to do with another habit you’re already good at remembering to do, or remind yourself of why you want to stay organized to motivate yourself to keep up with it.

Whatever you do to remind yourself to keep up with your system, your organization system will be much easier to maintain if it’s as simple as is possible while still meeting your needs. Systems that require too much physical or mental effort or rely solely on your memory to operate will likely not be successful for the long-term. Lowering the cognitive or mental load of your system is helpful - you can do this by using color coding (rainbow order, people!), reminders, reusable lists, or some other order that makes sense to your brain. Basically, you want the system to be as accessible in the most time efficient way for you and your needs.

And, as I mentioned, asking for help can make a big difference. Maybe a friend or family member can help you clean out your room. A colleague or your boss could help you design a system to manage your work. As executive function coaches, organization is often a challenge area for our clients - we see that it really does help to have a person in your life who can give you some new ideas and inspiration and then add some accountability for you on top of that. In addition to support from real live people, you can also look online for help - pinterest is a great resource for inspiration. There are also a million blog posts and books you can read, shows you can watch.

Okay, that’s our show for today. I kind of feel like I’m leaving you in the lurch because there are so many other amazing strategies out there for organizing our space and data, but as always, I know you’ve got other stuff to go out and do today. A million thanks to all of you listeners who have joined me this second season. If you have any feedback or topic requests, please email me at podcast at beyondbooksmart.com. I’d love to hear from you. We’ll be back in October, celebrating ADHD Awareness month. We’ve got some good shows in the works for our third season and I can’t wait to share them with you.

Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Be sure to check out the show notes for further reading. Please share our podcast with your friends, family, and colleagues. We appreciate it so much! Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or spotify, give us a boost by giving us 5-star rating! Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

Last week, I had a blast hosting another free webinar for Beyond BookSmart that was all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie, an Executive Function coach and ADHD expert, joined me to explore how the ADHD brain works and what the roles of medication, therapy and executive function coaching are within the larger umbrella of ADHD treatment. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches’ favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with, and featured psychiatrist, Dr. Theresa, to fill in some of our expertise gaps around ADHD medication. So, today, I’m bringing you the audio from the webinar AND a bonus Q&A section that Amy & I did after the webinar (there were just too many great questions we didn’t get to!) If you joined us live and just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to around 47 minutes to listen to just that. And if you didn’t get a chance to watch the webinar at all, be sure to look for the link in the show notes below!

For those who have been blessed with careful ears, you’ll hear me share in this episode that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. Because of my recent diagnosis, this episode is particularly close to my heart. I hope you enjoy listening half as much as I enjoyed being a part of these important conversations and if you do, be sure to give us a 5-star review on the platform you’re listening on! And last but certainly not least, thank you for being a part of the Focus Forward community.

Here are the show notes for this week:

Watch our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis

https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/u3pueh40rs

Slides from our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis

https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/hubfs/How%20to%20Thrive%20with%20ADHD%20After%20a%20Diagnosis%202023.pdf

Watch our webinar about Motivation:

https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/o3it96iuot

Beyond BookSmart ADHD Success Kit

https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022

Focus Forward Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHD

https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=by637taszi

Focus Forward Ep 18: Flipping the ADHD Narrative: How "The Disruptors" is Changing the Way We Talk About ADHD (ft. Nancy Armstrong)

https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=wwh3rsdpbw

2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gA

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Hannah Choi 00:18

Oh, you guys, thank you so much for taking the time to go to Apple podcasts and rate Focus Forward. For me, it really means a lot to see that little number next, all those stars go up. I really appreciate it. If you want to help us out, and you haven't already rated it, you can scroll to the bottom of the Focus Forward section of your Apple podcasts app and give us a rating and hopefully it's five stars. If it's not, email me, tell me why. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate you all so much.

Hannah Choi 00:47

I had a blast hosting another beyond booksmart free webinar last week, this time, all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie joined me again as one of our ADHD experts. And we covered what ADHD is and what it is not how the ADHD brain and medication work, the roles therapy and executive function coaching play for people with ADHD, and the benefits of pairing those interventions for maximum success. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with. And this webinar was an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we held in June of 2022. So today, I'm bringing you the audio from this year's ADHD webinar. If you listen to Focus Forward regularly, you may notice that much of the content is similar to the ADHD focused episode we did in October of 2022. In fact, I even used some of the audio from last year's webinar in that episode, I really hope you listen anyway. And don't report me for plagiarizing myself, although you'd have to report me to me, and I'm cool with it. So it's all just such good stuff. And I want to share it with as many people as possible in as many formats as we can. So some people like to watch video to learn, and others like to listen and still others prefer to read. And as a coach, I really recognize the value of honoring these differences in people. And so this is me making that happen. If you'd like some visuals while you listen, the slides from the webinar are linked in the show notes. Also, today, you'll hear me share that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. And so this webinar and that ADHD episode are particularly close to my heart. In fact, doing all the research for the ADHD episode last year confirmed what I had been wondering for quite a while.

Hannah Choi 03:02

At the end of our webinar presentation last week, Amy and I answered some of the Q&A topics that our attendees asked both with their registrations and during the live webinar. And people asked such good questions. So good. And if you listened to the Focus Forward episode of the audio from our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, all about unlocking motivation, you may remember that Amy, Vin and I sat down the next day to answer more Q&A topics. Because there were some great questions we couldn't get to before this latest webinar ended, Amy and I decided to meet up again, just like last time, so stay tuned at the end of the webinar audio for the bonus content. If you joined us live and you just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to about 46 minutes to listen to just that. And if you missed the webinar, and you want to watch it, the link to it and our other webinar presentations is in the show notes. Okay, now on to the show.

Hannah Choi 04:07

All right. So hello, and welcome to our webinar "How to Thrive with ADHD After Diagnosis". We are so thrilled to welcome people joining us from across the US and around the world as we saw, and we have closed captions available. So if you'd like to use those, be sure to turn them on. My name is Hannah Choi, and I'll be your moderator for tonight's event. I use she her pronouns and I'm the host of our podcast, all about executive functioning called Focus Forward. So if you listen there, you might know you get to see a face to the name or Yeah, face to my voice. I have been an executive function coach at beyond booksmart since 2017, and I have coached dozens of students from elementary age all the way up to college and I also work with adults and I'm a mom of two kids who are 11 and 14 and I live in Connecticut. I am also joined by Amy McDuffie who you may recognize from our laziness versus executive dysfunction webinar around motivation. Amy, would you please introduce yourself and share your background and your roles with Beyond BookSmart?

Amy McDuffie 05:14

Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone, I have been a coach and executive function consultant with beyond booksmart. For over two years. I use she her pronouns, and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities, with students from elementary through high school. And I'm also a former behavior specialist. These opportunities allowed me to really experience both the gifts and challenges of students diagnosed with ADHD. Much of my work in the school setting focused on providing interventions for students, and coaching teachers on how to best provide support. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens, ages 14 and 17. And I'm so glad you all are here. And I'm really excited to be with you.

Hannah Choi 05:59

Thank you, Amy. And for those of you who are joining us who may not be familiar with Beyond BookSmart, we have been providing one on one executive function coaching with students and adults since 2006. Even before that term executive function became widely known. And you may already know this term since ADHD and executive function skill challenges are so closely bound. But if it's new to you, you're not alone, I promise. Executive function skills are mental skills that we use to navigate our lives and get through our days. They include attention, memory, time management, planning, prioritizing, and emotional regulation. And many of our clients have an ADHD diagnosis, which gives us extensive experience in supporting individuals with ADHD or similar challenges. And today's webinar is an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we ran last summer, which was hosted by Jackie Hebert. And that webinar was one of our highest attended webinars. So we know that this topic is really important to people. And I am personally thrilled to be hosting this time, because the topic is really close to my heart, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. And I've been doing a lot of the same navigation of new waters that many of you likely are. And so I'm really happy to be here with you today. So you may be joining us today because you or your child was recently diagnosed with ADHD, but maybe you just suspect a diagnosis. And if this is the case, we really encourage you to listen to the webinar, and then reach out to your pediatrician or your primary care provider for guidance on what to do next.

Amy McDuffie 07:37

Thanks, Hannah. It can be really overwhelming when you learn or suspect that you or a loved one has ADHD. There's just so much information out there. And it can be hard to sort through it all. But we find it can also be a huge relief to get a diagnosis because it gives you context for your or your child's struggles, and also a defined place to look for help and support, which you are doing right now. We're here tonight to provide that for you. So here's what's here's what to expect in our webinar. First, we'll briefly define ADHD and explore some common assumptions about it. Then we'll move to learning about medication options. Then we'll touch upon behavioral approaches to treating ADHD, and share some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can make life a little easier. We'll share some resources and answer some of your questions before we finish up. So please use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen throughout the webinar.

Hannah Choi 08:38

Yes, thanks. And because we're not medical doctors - Sorry mom and dad! We will be sharing a recording of some of the webinar from last summer. We had Dr. Theresa Cerulli join us to discuss the option of medication to treat ADHD. Dr. Cerulli is a graduate of Tufts University, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Harvard Longwood residency program in adult psychiatry, and Harvard fellowships in Medical Psychiatry and neuro psychiatry, and she is a board certified physician in psychiatry and is on the faculty at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, and for the neuroscience Education Institute, so we'll hear from her later.

Amy McDuffie 09:21

All right, so you might be wondering just how common is ADHD? You're in very good company. Research from the National Institute of Mental Health, the NIMH reveals 11% of children and 4.4% of adults meet the criteria for ADHD, with males diagnosed at a higher rate than females. Now those statistics are from 2011. So we hope that NIMH updates their data soon. But with that degree of prevalence, you can see why it's essential to educate caregivers, children and adults with ADHD and help them identify supports to manage their symptoms.

Hannah Choi 09:59

Yes, and thanks to the efforts of high profile and successful people with ADHD, there's less stigma associated with a diagnosis. In fact, you'll meet many people who consider their ADHD a superpower of sorts. And it provides great energy and creativity when channeled effectively. There are so many great examples of people with this superpower from Simone Biles that you can see on the screen now, and astronaut Scott Kelly and so many others, and ADHD does not have to be a hindrance to success. All right, but all of that inspirational wisdom still leaves us with an important question.

Hannah Choi 10:35

What is ADHD? And what is it not? All right, so ADHD is a brain based condition that impacts daily life. And it often can affect motivation. And it often runs in families. And it has three subtypes, there's hyperactive impulsive, and then there's inattentive, which you may know as add the ADD is what it was formerly called. And now it is called ADHD inattentive type. And then there is the third type, which is the combined type that has characteristics from both. And ADHD directly impacts executive functioning. And ADHD is not a result of poor parenting. It is not a choice. And it is not something that children typically outgrow. And it is not a learning disability. And it's also doesn't have to be an immovable barrier to success and happiness. And I want to touch upon just a few of these points. Not everyone outgrows it. But with intervention, you can manage symptoms, and sometimes the symptoms just change over your life, because the demands on us change. So the symptoms can look different as we age. And ADHD is not considered a learning disability because it's a medical condition that, as we learned, impacts your it will what you'll learn as we will learn it impacts neurotransmitters in the brain. And research indicates that 30 to 50% of children with ADHD also have a specific learning disability, and that the two conditions can interact, which can make learning extremely challenging.

12:10

Yes, let's talk more about that for a minute. It's not a learning disability, but a medical condition. And understanding these dynamics can really help us empathize with individuals with ADHD. So if you attended our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, this may sound familiar. So ADHD is characterized by lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine, affecting how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure. And this leads to a lack of enthusiasm per task, and a tendency to prioritize short term rewards over long term rewards. Another significant difference in the ADHD brain involves the default mode network, which activates during daydreaming or when we're not focused on a task. In ADHD, this network is more often activated constantly diverting attention toward unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of well, it's a matter of neurology. And that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD.

Hannah Choi 13:26

Yes, so true. Thank you, Amy. Alright, so now that we know what happens inside the ADHD brain, let's take a look at how ADHD can show up in behavior. Okay, so here is the top of an iceberg. And this is the part that everyone sees when a person has executive function challenges due to ADHD. The people around them see the top they see the behaviors that are problematic. They're forgetful, they seem lazy and scattered. They're sloppy or moody, they behave impulsively, and sometimes can even be rude to others. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Now remember that icebergs are actually mostly hidden under the water. And it's the same with executive function challenges. When we look deeper, we can see the specific skill deficits that people with ADHD can often have and that are causing the challenging behaviors that impact those around us. And so a person may have a poor sense of time or difficulty planning ahead, when that can make them seem scattered, and they may have trouble regulating emotion and seem irritable or moody. When they have no strategies to self monitor, a person can look impulsive, and students or adults who are too overwhelmed to get started can look lazy. And when they have no systems to track to sorry, excuse me to track their belongings or to maintain their focus, they can be forgetful. And when a person has trouble thinking flexibly, it can affect their problem solving and perspective taking and that can often come off as rude or demanding behavior. Beer. And as I mentioned in the beginning, ADHD can impact one or more of these skill areas. So you can see how it can directly impact our ability to manage everyday demands.

Amy McDuffie 15:13

Thank you, Hannah. So we'll shift now to the role of medication for ADHD. Many of you wrote in with questions about that, and we recognize that medication is a personal choice. And for those who are considering it, we wanted to provide some support there. So let's hear from Dr. Cerulli to learn how that works.

Theresa Cerulli, MD 15:33

So medications, I will say, it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would have I would think about it. And mostly because of the data. Looking at this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention, interventions, versus combined in treating ADHD, and the sitter. So the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, the medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies, meaning I call that "from the outside in" using strategies you learn in your environment, with some coaching, hopefully, and therapy, from the outside in, those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain. So initially, at least considering the combination of therapies, internal and external, so to speak, are, are considered them should should at least be considered. That's how we think about it. And here's our ADHD brain here on on the slide with the power switch in the frontal lobe. Think of the brain as a large electrical circuit, it really is that we're sending electrical signals when one part of the brain is talking to another part of the brain. So in the ADHD brain, all the circuitry is there, there's nothing that's we're not missing something. There's not, you know, holes in the section of the brain that's involved in attention concentration. But it just, it turns out that there's a higher level of stimulation is needed to literally turn the circuit on. And the reason that this switch here is in the frontal lobe this on switch is because that's the area that's mostly involved in ADHD, from what we can tell that area is under active or hypo active. If you look at functional scans, have somebody do a concentration task that has ADHD, and you scan them in a functional scanner, looking at what happens. And it turns out that that area of the brain that's used with concentration and attention is under active, it's too quiet. It takes something stimulating to flip the switch, which is where the medications come in. I get this question all the time. Why in the world would you talk about stimulant medications? For somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? It's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person. You want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize and plan. You're trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively. So choosing the right medication is the question we get all the time. It should be in partnership certainly with somebody who really knows ADHD well, and the primary care physicians are especially if you're working with kids, the pediatricians are quite familiar but all with adults with ADHD your internist may or may not be they because the stimulant medications, which are many of the options we have available, are controlled substances. A lot of the internists and general practitioners for adults are their little hesitant to be involved in in prescribing so we usually refer you to a psychiatrist and neurologist, somebody who does this on a more routine basis. For ADHD, there are stimulants. There are also non stimulants. The non stimulants have some similar effects in the brain. Not quite as strong, I would say Say is the stimulants and we'll go through them quickly through the pros and cons. Stimulants have been around for years and years the gosh, Ritalin 1950s There was some amphetamines available even before that in the 1930s not yet used for ADHD but at least existed so stimulants have been around for more years than I have been concert they've been well studied. They're relatively affordable because there's many options and so usually there's a lot of generic brands that are available which insurance is more willing to pay for so that has that advantage. Cons is that they are controlled substances. They do have the potential for addiction. If we have clients that working with when there's any concern around that we are really careful usually move that would be someone I'd move to a non stimulant is first line. Some examples of stimulants you may have heard of certainly, Ritalin, Concerta, and meditate those fall into the methylphenidate category of stimulants. There's a second stimulant category and that's amphetamines. Some of the names you may have heard of there are Adderall, Vyvanse and dexedrine. So stimulants, if that's the umbrella term, under stimulants, you have two subcategories methylphenidate and amphetamines. And then there's about 29 or so total stimulants if I wanted to make a list and but most of those 29 fall into either methylphenidate or amphetamines in some form, some are long acting, some are short acting. An example in the methylphenidate Ritalin itself and its original form that tablet lasted only about three and a half, four hours. And that was it, which is why it was so hard to get tend to go to the nurse's office at lunchtime to take their second dose of Ritalin than they needed a third dose after school and potentially another for homework. It was really kind of rough that up down on off feeling. Concerta is a long acting rhythm and it's still Ritalin. It's just a 10 to 12 hour version that you can take once in the morning and have it last throughout the day. So there's many methylphenidates that are short acting, many that are long acting, some that are in between. Same thing with amphetamines, the non stimulants, they aren't controlled substances, there is no potential for addiction. That is one of the beauties of the non stimulants. They haven't been out as long so we don't have as many available. In fact, there are only for adults, we only have two non stimulants FDA approved for treating ADHD. In children, we had three new we now have four because Quelbree came became available last year as another non stimulant available for actually kids and adults. So we don't have the long list of that we do with stimulants where there's I said 29 I think it's actually even a little more than that now. Preparations, non stimulants we're more limited choice, but they do have their advantages that it's not that they don't have side effects, stimulants and non stimulants both can have side effects. The side effects with the non stimulants are just a bit different. I already said that not addictive, there's no withdrawal risk. They're not quite as strong. If you looked at the robustness of response, you're going to get more effect over and above not on a stimulant over and above not taking a stimulant compared with what we call the robustness of of effect of a non stimulant. But it really should be tailored to the individual and discussed with your individual provider. Hopefully someone that really is specialized in ADHD.

Amy McDuffie 23:41

All right, that was great information. So medication provides a place to start for many with ADHD. But as some educational professionals say, "Pills don't teach skills". I know it might sound silly, but it's worth noting for the reminder it provides medication as we just learned can set the stage to make learning and applying new skills easier by turning on the brain's ability to focus, which allows us allows us to take better advantage of other beneficial supports. Also, because some people choose not to take ADHD medication, it's important to explore these other supports. So the other half of the equation is how you go about learning new habits and behaviors. Let's find out more about two options therapy and coaching. Both of which can teach you different ways of thinking about your ADHD, and tools and strategies to support the areas that you or your child find challenging. So therapy and executive function coaching work together to address the negative behaviors and habits that have been learned over time, but in different ways. Therapists help transform negative patterns of thinking influenced by living with ADHD and constructively rebuilt the way people feel about themselves. Their therapy can be a really helpful piece of overall treatment, particularly if there's self esteem issues, or coexisting mental health conditions like depression or anxiety that are part of the big picture. The longer that ADHD is untreated, it's more likely that there are deep seated beliefs about self worth, and potential that can be holding a person back. It's significant to note that a child with ADHD could receive 20,000 corrective or negative comments by the time they are age 10. Now that's fertile ground for feelings of shame to take root. We're not therapists, so we can't elaborate on the specific benefits and approaches to therapy. But we really encourage you to find a therapist who has experience supporting people with ADHD.

Hannah Choi 25:56

Yes, I know that my therapist has been invaluable to me as I figured out how to manage my ADHD and all the emotions that come with that diagnosis. So managing those emotions, and those negative narratives that come along with it are just one part of the puzzle. Because ADHD impacts executive functioning so directly, working specifically on developing good habits to level the playing field is really, really helpful. And that's where executive function coaching can help. So what is executive function coaching, it supports clients to explore their strengths and their challenges, and then refine their tools to manage their daily life challenges. And all of this helps foster healthy habits. And having a coach is beneficial for everyone, actually, regardless of your ADHD diagnosis, because you don't have to have ADHD, to have stroke struggles with executive function. And life can just be tough enough for everybody. So learning some new strategies is always helpful. And as we said before, Amy and I are both coaches, and we have been for some time now. And I just love how we get to teach adults and students, all those executive function skills like organizing, planning, prioritizing, managing time, and maintaining focus, learning to assess yourself and work more efficiently. But it's really so much more than just building on those specific skills and habits. Right, Amy?

Amy McDuffie 27:26

Absolutely. Yes, I definitely agree with you there, Hannah. I also really just value the strong trust and rapport that I get to build with clients. And I love those moments when I get to see a shift in confidence and autonomy. You know, really our goal is our goal as coaches is for clients to develop the skills they need in order to become successful and independent.

Hannah Choi 27:51

Yes, there's just nothing like it when we see our clients finding that. And also, everybody comes from a different place and has different needs and different challenges. And so what what I really like about that one on one aspect of coaching is that it can really help clients focus on their specific goals and their needs. So Amy, what do you see in your clients with ADHD when they first start coaching?

Amy McDuffie 28:19

Yeah, that's a really, really important question, because clients often come to us when they're feeling pretty frustrated, which is completely understandable. And oftentimes, individuals with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which ends up having a negative impact on their self perception, and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier leading to the self-reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing. Because our brains just don't function well under stress. I know I've seen clients come into coaching with the assumption that they just can't improve their grades or stay on top of their work. Because this combination of past failure and unhelpful habits have really diminished their confidence in it for taking any steps towards making a change. And that's why it's really important to help clients with ADHD recognize their strengths. And as coaches, we can build upon those strengths and draw parallels between the skills needed to generalize that success to other areas. We also initially work on finding small wins and help clients recognize the benefits from these changes, which then leads to greater self confidence. And this increase in self-confidence and feelings of success then became motivating to build upon this habits and ends up creating a positive cycle of success that can really snowball into some major changes.

Hannah Choi 29:51

Yes, it's so it's just so great to see that happening. So let's talk about some of the specific tools and strategies that we coaches use to teach people with have ADHD, or just executive function challenges to make the life a little easier. So a common common common executive function skill challenge area for people with ADHD. And actually, I would say for most everybody is planning, prioritizing and time management. And so let's start with that time management. One helpful strategy is using timers and then blocking out your time, we really liked the Pomodoro Technique, which you may have heard of before, and it involves setting a timer for a focused work period, then that's usually about 25 minutes, the brain doesn't really like to work longer, in general. So 25 minutes is often a good amount of time. And then after the timer goes off, you take a five minute break, make sure you set a time and mercy or five minute break doesn't turn into an hour, and then restart that cycle. And then if you're finding it difficult to get back to work, after the break, you can try stretching or getting up and walking around having a snack or a drink, or just maybe switching to a different activity temporarily. And when prioritizing what you're going to work on in those blocks of time, some people like to decide ahead of time, what they're going to work on, based on the difficulty of the task or its urgency, and then others like to start with what they're feeling most motivated to work on. And it really just depends on what works best for you. And as all tools. And what we really say to all of our clients all the time is we really, really want you to try things out, and then see what works best for you. And as a person with ADHD, the way that you do things might look different from the way everyone else does. And I'm here to tell you that that is okay. And a tool that we like to use for planning is called peak performance. And what peak performance does it helps you to learn to pay attention to when you're most productive. And so this can give you some insights on how to schedule your days. So if you tend to get tired in the afternoons, I think that's pretty standard for most people, scheduling a focus to work session in the afternoon is not maybe a realistic expectation. And if you have a hard time winding down after school, jumping right into homework when you first get home might be stressful and unproductive.

Amy McDuffie 32:17

Yes, thank you so much, Hannah. I totally agree it's so important to recognize those peak performance times during the day. And I think it's also really helpful to determine why the task is important to you, you know, to remind yourself of the potential benefits, which may not always seem immediate, but could have some greater benefit down the road. And this can really help boost motivation for taking the steps to get started. Some other strategies that can help with focus include things like taking notes, using checklists, asking questions, and just writing information down in your own words. It's really about creating opportunities for engagement and active participation whenever possible. And some people find it's also helpful to drink water or to gum, also to use alternate seating or even stand and to create opportunities for movement. And this is definitely something to consider in the school environment where students do a lot of sitting.

Hannah Choi 33:21

I also wanted to touch on some strategies that can help remember help with remembering to take your medication. And this could be ADHD medication or any other prescriptions you might have. Memory can be a big challenge area for people with ADHD. I know it is my kryptonite. We suggest setting up automatic refills for prescriptions that allow this and adding a reminder in your calendar for the following month when you receive this month supply. And you can create a recurring alarm as a reminder to take your meds or and then also like keep them in something like near something that you use daily, maybe by your planner or bedside table or the kitchen counter. And ordering a three month supply when possible. You can't do this without medications can reduce how often you need to reorder, which is really helpful. And if the current Adderall shortage affects you, being proactive is crucial. Your pharmacist may need to collaborate with other pharmacies to source refills, and finding a cooperative pharmacy will make things much easier. Let's see. All right. I'm gonna go with this one. Let's see. How do you know when a teen is being lazy versus when it's ADHD? This sounds very familiar to me. Amy. Does it sound like that to you?

Amy McDuffie 34:48

It's that's a that's a tough question to be honest. Yeah, I'm happy to start out on that one. Yeah. I you know, coming from you know, a behavioral behavioral person Active, excuse me, I really like to find out, you know, where the problem issue is, and also, you know, help determine why that's happening. So I feel like, that's a really important step here. Like, you know, how, how is this child being impacted? And, you know, why is that occurring? Because I do think that, you know, behavior serves a function. And I think we need to determine that before we can identify, you know, if it's ADHD related, which it very well could be, or if it's more of a behavioral issue. So, I don't know, Hannah, what are your thoughts on that?

Hannah Choi 35:39

Yeah, well, it reminds me of the last webinar that we, that we both hosted back in May, where it was actually the topic of the webinar. And, and, and we, we do like what like you just said, it's, it's, I mean, I would say it's not laziness. It can feel that way. As the parent, I can very much feel that way. It can also feel that way, as a person with ADHD, sometimes I find myself, I like catch myself thinking, I'm being really lazy. And then I realized, like, wait a second, I'm just not, I'm not figuring out why. And I'm not figuring out a tool to help me get past that what feels like a laziness barrier. I do know that a lot of screen time can deplete what little dopamine people with ADHD already have. So extended amounts of screen time can can make it feel like everything else is really boring, which can impact your motivation. So you know, if there's, you might want to have a discussion with yourself, if you're the person who's experiencing that, or with your partner or with your child, if, if there might be some dopamine depletion going on from a lot of screentime, which is totally normal. Everybody, does it. I'm not at all saying is there's anything wrong with it, but it can be, there can be a connection of it there. So yeah, all right. Um, let's see. Oh, here we go. Can you give an example of how ADHD can be a superpower? I would like to take that one.

Amy McDuffie 37:20

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 37:24

So that Default Mode Network section that you were talking you and Dr. Cerulli were talking about earlier is, is it's both a challenge and also a superpower. So even while I'm talking right now, I have like a lot of ideas going on in my head. And what I'm doing is like making all these connections between topics. And I feel like I'm really good at synthesizing information. Because I have this deep, I even I'm focusing on talking right now to all of you, I have this default mode network that is like susceptible, making all these connections out here. And I feel like it gives me some really creative ideas. And I also feel like it really helps me as a podcast host. Because I feel like it helps me come up with some really cool questions and make connections that a more linear thinker might not make. It does require extra effort to stay focused and to kind of ignore that default mode network when I when I really need to focus. So it's a it's a challenge, and it's also a superpower. And also, there's just a lot of energy behind the things that people with ADHD are really interested in. So I think that that is, you know, some of the most successful CEOs in the world have ADHD. What about you, Amy, what do you see in your clients are the students that you used to work with?

Amy McDuffie 38:46

I really, I really value the creativity that I feel like many individuals with ADHD have. And you mentioned, Hannah, you know, the energy and I think that's, that's such an important part that to frame it as a positive. And, you know, that kind of goes, you know, really into, like, the dialogue about ADHD that we really should reframe it as, you know, as a positive and look at, you know, you know, the gifts that ADHD can bring for individuals.

Hannah Choi 39:19

Yep, I agree. Okay, here is a great question. I'm so glad somebody asked this. How does mood play into executive functioning with my daughter who has to attempt inattentive ADHD getting into the frame of mind to do anything is a big challenge. Yeah, so just to get a little brain nerdy. So our executive function skills reside in our frontal lobe or prefrontal cortex which is right behind our foreheads. And we can only really access them when we are at rest and digest when our body when we're not stressed out. We're not upset we're not anxious. And so if you, if you already are struggling with executive functioning, which a person with ADHD does, and also one of those really big, important executive function skills in there that do that does really challenge people with ADHD is emotional regulation. So regulating your emotions so that you can stay up in the front part of your brain, the top part of your brain where your executive function skills are is a huge part of success. Right? Like, if you already have trouble accessing them, and your emotions are not being managed, then it makes it even harder to get started even harder to get over the anxiety that you might have or the frustration you might feel or the fear you might have for what you're going to work on.

Amy McDuffie 40:45

Yeah, absolutely. Hannah, I mean, it really that emotional regulation or self regulation piece, it really is the starting point, you know, of things to focus on and then to work on building strategies from there.

Hannah Choi 41:00

Yeah, yep. Somebody asked about screen time. We could literally talk about screen time all night.

Amy McDuffie 41:07

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's, that's such an important question. Because, you know, it's one that we all we all live. Yeah. So I'm, if that's okay, Hannah, I'm happy to share. Okay. So this is something that I've, you know, that I've actually been working on with a client, and, you know, having two teenagers myself, it's something that we address in our own home as well. And I feel like, you know, for me, the approach that I like to take is to really look at, you know, how we spend our time, so, you know, how your kids are spending their time. And, you know, really what they're missing, you know, are there things that they have enjoyed doing in their lives, their hobbies, other things that might be sacrificed, if they're spending tons of time on the screen. So I like to, you know, kind of approach things from that angle in terms of, you know, what else could you be doing with your time, and then, I love the approach in my own house of, you know, taking the, the adolescent need for independence and autonomy. And, you know, really talking with my kiddos about, you know, are you in control of your phone? Or are you allowing your phone to control you and, you know, taking that approach and teaching them about, you know, the intention of all of the the apps and, you know, wanting to, you know, maintain our attention and take our time away. So, those are just some approaches that I use, you know, in my own house and with with my client as well. How about you, Hannah?

Hannah Choi 42:44

Yeah, I really love that last point that you made, because learning to, to reflect on our own experience, and then take what we've learned, and then apply it to our life to make positive change is is such an important skill to learn as a teen because you're soon going to be an adult and not have your parents around to help you monitor all that. So learning that self awareness, and just self control is so great. So I love that. I love that you mentioned that. Yeah, I got to interview Dr. Clifford Sussman, who is a psychiatrist who specializes in screen addiction. And he had some really, really great tips for, like you said, working with your, with your child, your teen to, to, you know, work together to come up with a potential solution for you know, setting reasonable limits, while also giving them that autonomy and independence that they do crave. And they do need because they need to develop that skill for success in life outside of, you know, our safe and cozy homes. And then he also talked a lot about See, here's where my memory is... so anyway, just listen to the episode!

Amy McDuffie 44:06

That is a great episode, Hannah. That's one of my favorites.

Hannah Choi 44:12

We are live folks, we are live. Here's one. How can you tell if it is anxiety or ADHD? Oh, whoever wrote that? I feel Yeah, I feel you. What do you see in your clients? Amy?

Amy McDuffie 44:28

Oh, wow. I honestly he and I often see both of those in conjunction and, you know, the symptoms of anxiety and ADHD. There's definitely some overlap there. And you know, we talked about the you know, the cycle of failure and I what I have seen is when clients expect have that experience of past failure, it causes more anxiety and that anxiety you know, leads to avoidance with Whether it's for, you know, completing assignments or the thing they have to do, and it just, it does create that ongoing cycle. So it's, it's hard for me to separate the two, honestly, when I think about the work that I do with my clients, because I do see it often together. How about you?

Hannah Choi 45:18

Yep. Yep, I agree. I mean, I agree personally, that is, has been my experience. And I also see it in my clients as well. I know, for me, personally, I have a lot of anxiety around forgetting things, because memory is my most challenged area. So I am, I am often anxious that I am, you know, forgetting an important appointment or forgetting to do something that I told someone I would do. And so I have to use a lot of strategies to support myself there and I don't succeed every time. I have recently double booked myself. And so you know, it happens. But I encourage you to explore both. And to, like Amy said, it's hard to separate them, I do think it's pretty common to have both. And, and also, like, maybe we even internalized this as a child, you know, you you like all those corrective messages we heard, you know, we talked about earlier, it's, you know, when you hear that over your over the years and years, it's, it's hard not to come a little anxious about that.

Hannah Choi 46:20

Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy the next morning. And in keeping with my goal of authenticity, you can hear some sounds of daily life in the background of my recording. My mother in law, who I love dearly, did not realize I was recording. Good morning, Amy.

Amy McDuffie 46:46

Hey, good morning.

Hannah Choi 46:48

Thanks for coming back. It's not too early, but it is the morning, but I appreciate the quick turnover.

Amy McDuffie 46:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Hannah Choi 46:58

That was so fun last night. I'm so glad we got to do that again.

Amy McDuffie 47:01

Yeah, me too. I really, I really enjoyed that I could talk about, you know, ADHD is something I could talk about all day. So.

Hannah Choi 47:10

Okay, well, then I'm glad we're talking about it. So I was laughing so hard internally, because as you know, every time we were practicing, I kept almost I kept saying not almost saying I kept saying laziness versus execution webinar. Not laziness versus executive dysfunction webinars. So

Amy McDuffie 47:31

yeah, that would be a different webinar, for sure. It'll be different. Yes, exactly. I mean, that would that would be a different source of motivation, for sure. So

Hannah Choi 47:51

All right, so yeah, so I was very proud of myself control and yours as well, because I know you were wondering if I was gonna say it?

Amy McDuffie 47:59

Well, and I was trying not to think about it too much, because then I didn't want to internalize it and say it myself. So I feel like we did. We did well, with that. We did. We did. We said the word.

Hannah Choi 48:13

All right, let's dive into some of these questions that are just so good. I love. I just love how thoughtful everyone is. And so some of these questions were submitted during our live Q&A. And some of them were submitted when people registered for the webinar. So we've just kind of mixed them together. Okay, so here's the question when searching for a therapist, what kind of therapists should I look for?

Amy McDuffie 48:39

Yeah, so Hannah, I'm happy to jump in on that. One. I would recommend looking for a therapist who is experienced working with individuals with ADHD. And you know, also if you you know, feel comfortable and know someone who has an ADHD diagnosis, you know, maybe getting a recommendation from them as well. Then what do you think?

Hannah Choi 49:01

Yeah, for sure, you can also ask your psychiatrist or your whatever the doctor is that you're working with, for medication, if you take medication. I do know on Psychology Today, the different therapists will have profiles. And then and then on their profile, it'll say whether they work with people with ADHD, although I did reach out to one and she she told me that she doesn't work with ADHD. People with ADHD but it says so on her profile. So you might, you might and then they went to check back again. I noticed it was gone. So you might you might that might happen to you, but I encourage you to persevere. Yeah, yes. But yeah, absolutely. Someone who has experience and then you meet you might also meet with the person for the first time if you've never met with a therapist before. You may not know this that it can take a couple tries to find a therapist that you really gel with. But it's worth pursuing. It is frustrating because you have to tell your story, again to a new A person. But um, hopefully, hopefully you find the right one on the first try. Yeah. All right. Next, how do you approach a college age student who has been diagnosed with ADHD but will not accept help and wants to fix himself? And how do you help with the shame that they feel I actually entire my own personal experience real quick, I ended up when I got diagnosed, I realized, oh, there's actually nothing wrong with me, this is just how my brain is wired. So I actually felt a lot of relief, getting a diagnosis, so that I can understand the opposite experience. And it does, it can really feel like there's like something wrong with you, and that needs to be fixed. But, you know, as we talked about last night, it is it is just, you know, it's a, it's the way that your brain is, you know, it's neurotransmitters, it's not character flaws. And so I don't know if you know, approaching it from a real matter of fact, sort of factual viewpoint, that this is what's going on in your brain. And it's not necessarily like you as, as your essence, your soul, your person. What do you think?

Amy McDuffie 51:16

Yeah, I think that, that the education piece is so crucial. Because just having that having the understanding, knowing why that's happening, I think can really help with that piece. And in terms of, you know, addressing the shame piece, and dealing with denial, I think it's really important, you know, as, as parents, as professionals to really normalize our own struggles, and normalize the fact that everyone has challenges and struggles and things that we that we fail at. And, you know, just really, you know, trying to approach it from that perspective that, you know, this is this is what I'm dealing with, and that, you know, we all have those things. And I feel like that's a really important part in conjunction with the education piece.

Hannah Choi 52:11

Yeah, yep. Showing that empathy. And, and, and acknowledging their, their feelings and not denying them those feelings. And, yeah, yeah, it is hard, though. Yeah. What's what what I feel like is that, that, eventually, people who are feeling that way will hopefully feel, see the superpowers see the benefits of it, and are and are able to shift their perspective from something like wrong with them something that needs to be fixed to something like, oh, how can I leverage the, you know, the, the actual, like, really great things about this? And, you know, it does take a lot of work? Not, you know, it's definitely not easy, but I think that a shift in mindset can can help as well. Absolutely. Just wanted that therapy piece and executive function coaching thing coming.

Amy McDuffie 53:05

Right. Right. And I think also, you know, if it's possible, you know, to connect them with someone who has ADHD and has, you know, worked on some strategies and, you know, is able to share their perspective, I think that can be really helpful as well, because so many people are diagnosed with it, and, you know, are very successful. So I think that's a helpful piece, too.

Hannah Choi 53:31

Yep. Absolutely. And that we are seeing much less of a stigma around it, and people are more open to talking about it. And so hopefully, they are, you know, your your kid kiddos are able to connect with other people, I think, yeah, that's a really good point that you brought up, Amy. Thank you. All right. So next one. All right. Let's switch to an adult perspective. If you work in an office job, where you stare at computers all day, how can one unplug and not lose motivation to do other stuff? I feel like I can't separate myself from my electronics and I procrastinate on other things I need to do. That's a really I think this challenge for anybody right, regardless of your diagnosis. Yes. Especially in this day and age, this is you are absolutely not the first person to ask this question. I think many of our adult clients are saying yes, yes.

Amy McDuffie 54:33

Yeah. I agree with you there. Yes, absolutely. Because we do spend so much time, you know, staring at our screens, whether it's work or anything else, I think it's really helpful to you know, to actually schedule time away from the computer away from the screen, and, you know, whatever that looks like, whether you're actually in an office or working from home, but you know, scheduling that time and committing to sticking to it. I also think it's really helpful to enlist support, you know, whether from a family member or a friend, you know, to help you commit to that, whether it's, you're able to go for a walk, or whatever the thing is, where you're breaking away from it, you know, having support can be really motivating.

Hannah Choi 55:25

I have an adult client that I work with currently, and he is dealing with this exact same challenge at work. And he is lucky that he has an office so he is able to shut his door. So what he does is he schedules work time on his calendar, so he looks busy, so that people, you know, interrupt him less, and then he also shuts his office door. If you don't have an office door to shut, you can have, you could even put up a sign like I'm busy working, putting on headphones is a nice visual cue to other people that you are busy. And then the phone, the phone is a big one, they've done studies and they have found that we are I think 30% less effective. Just having our phone on our desk, even if it's flipped over and silenced, we are less productive. So I really encourage you to put your phone, like you know, leave your phone in your I don't know, on your friend's desk or your co workers desk or in your work bag or something. So it's really, really out of the way out of you know, the temptation zone. That can you really help if you feel like you can't put it away or you can't for some reason, maybe you need to be on call for a sick child or you have some other commitment where you really need to be connected to your phone. They do have apps that can help you with focus. So there's don't My favorite one is Focus Dog, which there's like a dog that makes doughnuts while you're focusing. We talked about that one before. There's also there's also Forest and you know, all those other focusing apps - the Flora flora. Yeah, those are both really like pre pretty ones. Right? So, if you want the tasty donuts get Focus Dog, Pretty one get Flora Forest or, or Flora. Those are some tools that you can use if you if you can't physically move your phone away from your Yeah, your workspace.

Amy McDuffie 57:31

Yeah, that's, that's great to know, to Hannah about the productivity. I need to I need to work on that.

Hannah Choi 57:39

Yeah, it's and I've actually asked my, a lot of my college clients, I challenged them to not have their phone with them when they're working. And they all begrudgingly admit that yes, they were more productive when their phone wasn't. So yes. But yeah, it is it is a powerful distractor having that there. So

Amy McDuffie 58:01

yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 58:03

All right. So let's see. Here's some more though is two more that will combine any tips for college freshmen with ADHD? What may be some good routines to practice over the summer? Great question. And then how do I help my teen who was diagnosed last month with ADHD? Learn some strategies to make things easier on them during the summer? While the pressure of school is off? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah.

Amy McDuffie 58:32

Yes, are so great. And I, I love the thoughtfulness behind that. And, you know, taking advantage of summer time being, you know, a low stakes situation without the pressure school. And I really think it's a great time to work on things like organizational skills, whether it's your physical space to get that set up, you know, before school starts, or, you know, working on, you know, learning to use a planner or a Calendar, Google Calendar. This is something that I actually work on with my kids during the summer. You know, in terms of, you know, Google Calendar, and you know, helping them manage whether my daughter is dog sitting or babysitting, she uses like a physical wall calendar as well. So you know, whatever the organizational system is, that's going to be helpful just to get in the habit of using that. I feel like it's really important over the summer. What about you?

Hannah Choi 59:29

Yeah, yes, I'm working on that right now with a client where I'm encouraging them to. I joke and say, you have to change your relationship with your planner, you have to move beyond just holding hands. And so yeah, so I'm really encouraging them to write everything down in their calendar. And it's like you said, it's such a low stakes time. So even when they're going to hang out with friends, I encourage them to put it in their calendar. So they can just get in the habit of making the calendar event, you know, and then maybe even sharing it with their friends with their friends can also have it on their calendar, just to be a little bit of a role model and also have some built in some accountability. So, that's is such a great time to practice it.

Amy McDuffie 1:00:20

One of my clients, we actually started this summer, working on a schedule for laundry.

Hannah Choi 1:00:27

Because there's so many executive function skills. Yes, yes. And cooking, too.

Amy McDuffie 1:00:33

It's a good one, too. But yeah, so you know, even things like, you know, working on, you know, managing your chores, or, you know, setting up a plan to manage your laundry can be really hard to work on in the summertime. Yeah, so with one of my clients was laundry, like, we literally, you know, worked on making a schedule and a plan for the week of, you know, when to tackle laundry, and, you know, even down to, you know, pulling in some habit stacking that in the morning, right after the shower, we're going to start laundry and, and go from there. And it was really effective. And I think that's such a helpful thing to focus on in the summertime,

Hannah Choi 1:01:16

Especially for kids who are heading off to college. And we've, you know, we've talked about that, before, it's come up on a couple conversations on the podcast anyway, it's such a huge, huge thing. And there's so many executive function skills out there. Yeah. And also cooking to cooking is a really great way to practice executive function skills of planning and prioritizing and organization, and time management. And it, there's so many involved in there. And then also, they're learning the valuable skill of how to cook right is so important as you prepare to leave to leave the nest. Yeah, though. Yeah, absolutely. You're right. It is, it's such like a great low stakes environment to practice those things. And they, and they really, and you don't need to practice them in an academic way. You know, like the examples that we just gave have nothing to do with academics. But, and that's what's so cool about executive function coaching is how transferable all of the skills that our clients learn, like, like our student clients, learn, you know, strategies to support their academics, but all of those strategies are transferable to, you know, their daily life activities. It's pretty cool.

Amy McDuffie 1:02:36

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's so valuable, too, because, you know, just thinking about things like laundry and cooking, I mean, those are skills, you you have to have your entire life unless, you know, you're in a situation where someone does that for you have to learn to manage those things. And I think back and I wish that someone had like, either really kind of worked on those things with me in a more direct way. I mean, I figured them out, as we do. Yeah, right. Right. You know, it really does just make me aware of the value of, you know, really directly teaching the skills and the systems that you can apply across the board.

Hannah Choi 1:03:19

And what is so great about that is that you can directly teach your kids those, those executive function skills without them even realizing that they're learning. So, you know, if you sat down and very, very formally said, now, we should work on time management, and, you know, like prioritizing, they're gonna roll their eyes and say, No, thank you. But, you know, just don't mention them and they're gonna learn them just accidentally.

Amy McDuffie 1:03:48

Exactly, exactly. There's so many ways to naturally weave that in. Yes, yeah. If we, if we formally approach it with our own kids, I feel like at that point, like, they're, they're no longer listening. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 1:04:01

That's right. It's like when they're little and you would like, I don't know, you'd like hide the spinach and something tasty. Like, if you tell them there's spinach in here, they're gonna like, I'm not gonna eat that. decided in there. They don't know. Exactly, exactly. Sorry, kids. Parenting is all about tricking you.

Amy McDuffie 1:04:23

It's actually it's not manipulation. It's education.

Hannah Choi 1:04:28

That's right, disguised as a brownie or laundry.

Amy McDuffie 1:04:32

You'll think this later.

Hannah Choi 1:04:34

And you'll do the same to yours if you have them. Thanks again for joining me, Amy, such a pleasure.

Amy McDuffie 1:04:41

Absolutely. Hannah. This was great. Thank you so much.

Hannah Choi 1:04:45

And that is our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about ADHD or maybe you just found a new view of it. It truly can be a superpower with the right interventions. tools and strategies. As I mentioned before, if you want to watch the entire webinar, you can find the link to it in the show notes. I also included some links to the slides that we shared during the webinar. I hope you join me at our next webinar. You can find more about our upcoming events by signing up for beyond book smarts monthly newsletter, the monthly think, or by checking the Events page in the resources section of our website. If you know anyone who might want to learn more about ADHD, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and also you can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. And as always, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. We would love it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Resilience is a topic I've wanted to explore for a long time on the podcast. After all, how can we continue to work on ourselves if our progress is always getting cut short? So in this week's episode, we're going to explore 6 tips for becoming more resilient in your life.

When I started doing the research for today’s episode on how to handle sliding back when you’ve made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in New England, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today’s episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue!

Here are some resources related to the episode.

How to handle backslides: https://www.scottsfortcollinsauto.com/what-do-you-do-if-your-car-is-sliding-on-ice/

Resilience Resources:

https://www.apa.org/topics/resilience

https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/resilience/according-experts/protective-role-executive-function-skills-high-risk-environments

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6403185/

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_hardwire_resilience_into_your_brain

James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/get-back-on-track

Emotional regulation: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/

Consistency: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9iZTI4OGFjL3BvZGNhc3QvcnNz/episode/NDBjMDBiMTUtMzMwMy00OGVjLWI2OWMtMGE3ZjNmNDlmZGI3?ep=14

Breaking streaks:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/202306/how-broken-streaks-sap-motivation

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript:

Before I get started today, I wanted to ask for a favor! If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, could you scroll down to the bottom of the Focus Forward section of the app and give us a rating? Hopefully 5 stars?? Also, if you have any episode topic ideas, please email me at podcast at beyond bookmart.com! I’d love to hear from you. Okay, let’s get going.

When I started doing the research for today’s episode on how to handle sliding back when you’ve made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in the NE, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today’s episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue!

The article I’ll refer to throughout the episode is aptly called “What Do You Do If Your Car is Sliding on Ice?” and it was written by someone at Scott’s Automotive and Service Centers, Inc with locations throughout Colorado and Arizona. You can find a link to it in the show notes if you want more information or want to read their other well-written and informative articles.

Before I dive into the article, I wanted to share some science-y stuff about executive function and resilience, because resilience is basically what I’m exploring today - managing the challenge of sliding back after having made some progress. We need to be resilient to get back on the horse, if you will. Research has shown that there is a direct connection between resilience and executive function skills. It appears that when your executive functioning is strong, your sense of self-efficacy is strengthened, as well. Self-efficacy, as we have talked about before in a couple of other episodes, is the belief that you have the ability to motivate yourself, accomplish tasks, and make decisions.

Studies have also shown that adolescents have a better time adjusting to school when they have stronger executive functioning and are more resilient. As a coach, I see this all the time in my college clients. After I’ve worked with them for a while and they’ve created some systems that work really well to support their EF skills, I see them being more resilient. They head into difficult times during the school year with more confidence and they come through it having had a better experience. If you’d like to do some reading on resilience and executive function, check out the show notes because I stuck some articles in there that you might find interesting. So, here’s another reason to work on building your executive function skills, especially as teenagers and young adults.

Okay, so back to icy driving conditions. Scott’s Automotive shared six tips for icy driving success in the article. I’ll review them all and tie them to some executive functioning strategies that can help us when we feel like we’re taking two steps forward and one step back, which by the way, is very normal, just like ice.

Tip #1

No Brakes!

The article reads, “Your first impulse when you feel yourself slipping out of control–literally–is to apply your brakes and stop the vehicle.” You’re not supposed to do that, even though you really want to, as it will make your slide worse. This can apply when we feel like we’re sliding back or not making progress on our goals. It can be tempting to give up, to put on the brakes and say, “well, apparently I’m just bad at doing this new habit” and decide that we’re not qualified to even try to make this positive change. To me, this black and white kind of thinking is a great way to interrupt any progress you were making and make your slide even worse. Practicing dialectical thinking in this situation is a good thing to try. Dialectical thinking allows us to hold two opposing thoughts in our heads at one time and recognize and accept that both can be true. “I overslept again! I should just give up on being a morning person” becomes, “It feels like I’m not making any progress on getting up earlier because I overslept again and I’m willing to keep trying”. This can help us be less rigid in our thinking and allow us to continue to look for alternative tools and strategies to help us reach our goals. Remember that cognitive flexibility from episode 21? Dialectical thinking is a great way to use those cognitive flexibility skills you have been working on developing.

Okay, on to Tip #2

Turn into the slide

This part of managing icy driving has always boggled my mind, but they’re right! The article agrees and says, “This goes against your instincts, but to help when you are sliding, you actually want to turn in the direction of the slide.” When I saw this, it really resonated with me and it kind of goes along with the previous tip. When we’re sliding back, changing our viewpoint from seeing it as a failure to seeing it as an opportunity to learn, can make a huge difference. Really lean into it, turn into that perceived “failure”. Embrace it as an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to find something that works better than what we’ve already been trying. Or, maybe it will just help us find the patience to accept ourselves, even when we’re not making the progress we wish we were, with grace and love and compassion. The last lines of this section of the article are just so perfect for this: “Gently maneuver the wheel. Correcting your slide in one direction, will result in the car returning back in the opposite direction before it, ultimately, stabilizes. Expect this rocking back and forth motion and respond with care.” Let’s do the same with ourselves and respond with care.

Okay, next up, Tip #3

Avoid oversteering

Again, the article comes through with a tip that so perfectly applies to learning how to manage it when we slide back when making progress. It reads, “If you oversteer, you can put the car in a full spin.” I see oversteering as completely overhauling our systems when we feel like we’re failing, sliding back, or not making the progress we want to see. There’s actually no need to oversteer. Take some time to reflect on the progress you HAVE made and see what tools or strategies DO work for you. See how you can modify those, if needed. Make small, incremental changes instead of major ones. Work at slowly changing your thinking about your progress. I bet you there are wins in there that you’re just not seeing. There’s no need to throw away that planner if you miss a meeting or give up running just because you missed a couple runs in your 5k training plan. Look at your planner - what did work? How many meetings did you not miss? What strategies can you use to make your planner work better for you? Look at your 5k training plan - what days and times seem to be the easiest for you to go running? What can you do to prevent injury? Are you drinking enough water? When we feel like we’re sliding, pausing and taking some time to think, reflect, troubleshoot, and find small wins you might be overlooking is much more effective than overhauling your whole system or oversteering your car.

Okay, now for Tip #4

Stay calm

Oh, Scott’s Automotive and Service Centers, you know the key to my heart and to our thinking brains. Emotional regulation! The article states, “Staying calm is key. Panic will cause you to oversteer and can result in a more serious slide, spin or accident.” If you have listened to this podcast for a while, you’ll have heard me say a million times that we can only fully access our executive function skills when we are calm. When we allow our emotions to take over, it’s really, really difficult to think about what to do when we are challenged by something, when we find ourselves sliding back. Staying calm is the key to the resiliency we need to recover from these perceived setbacks.

If you haven’t yet discovered what strategies help regulate yourself when you’re feeling overwhelmed, discouraged, frustrated, scared, or anxious, listen up! Sometimes it’s as simple as taking some calming breaths. At BBS we coaches really love 5-finger breathing, where you trace your fingers up and down while breathing in and out. Another breathing strategy that lots of people find helpful is square breathing - you breathe in for four counts, hold for four counts, breathe out for four and then hold again for four and then repeat this cycle as long as you can. But you don’t even have to get fancy like this - just taking some slow, controlled breaths can really make a difference. I’ve heard lots of people say that breathing is just not for them. I’d like to push back a little on that and say that breathing is actually for everyone - it’s literally keeping you alive right now! Just give one of these breathing exercises a shot! You might be surprised at how helpful it can be.

Practicing healthy, supportive self-talk is another tip for staying calm. When I’m out running and I’m struggling, I always tell myself “Hannah, you can do this”. If you listened to episode 1 about managing failure, you may remember me talking about this strategy. Speaking kindly to ourselves with supportive words during times of stress can really help regulate our emotions. So, whether you’re sliding on ice or just sliding back from making progress, try motivating yourself with a little supportive self-talk.

Mindfulness is another great strategy for managing our emotions. Learning how to pay attention to our bodies and how they’re feeling, bringing our focus back to what we’re doing, and noticing small things around us can all help with emotional regulation - and tricky winter driving! There are a ton of different approaches to mindfulness, including stopping to pay attention to something we normally just do without thinking or sitting for a 10-minute meditation session. However you approach mindfulness is up to you - research shows that it really and truly does positively impact our emotional regulation.

In order for these strategies to be really effective when we need them, we have to practice them. If you listened to episode 26 with Dr. Alison Roy, you might remember me saying that I started practicing square breathing while I’m driving. Hopefully it’ll come in handy this winter when I’m navigating some icy roads.

Next up, Tip #5

Prevent sliding by reducing your speed

If road conditions are poor, we should all be driving more slowly to begin with. The article explains ”If the roads are icy, or covered in snow, it is important to slow your vehicle. The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration advises that you reduce your speed by 1/3 on wet roads and by 1/2 (or more) on snow-packed roads.” This is such great advice for changing habits, too. The process of building or breaking habits is not easy or fast. There are no quick fixes. There’s no magic wand. Barreling into trying to make change with the expectation that you’ll somehow, miraculously become perfect instantly is unreasonable and is sure to set you up for disappointment. We are human, We are not perfect. Slow down, take small steps, give yourself some grace and some time. Look in the rearview mirror and see what’s worked for you and what hasn’t. Strive for excellence, not perfection.

And last, and certainly not least, Tip #6

Call for an Auto Check-up

Scott’s Automotive says “Another way to stay safe during inclement weather conditions is to ensure that your car is prepared for the weather.” This is true for our minds and bodies, as well. When we are healthy and taken care of, it is easier to manage sliding back. Prioritizing self-care is critical. Just as you make sure your cars’ tires have enough tread and your brakes are not worn out, we need to make sure that we are eating well, sleeping well, and moving our bodies. Going to the doctor regularly and making sure you’re doing what you can to stay healthy is critical for success, especially when you’re challenged by tricky stuff. It is much easier to access the executive function skills we need to be resilient when our bodies are happy.

Part of this last tip involves asking for help. I don’t know about you, but there’s not much I understand about fixing cars, so I need to ask the mechanic for help. In fact, as I write this, our car is in the shop for new brakes. If you need help with your executive function skills, ask for it! It can be scary to say I need help, but giving ourselves permission to do that can lead to growth far beyond anything we ever thought possible. Asking for help does not mean you are weak, or ignorant, or anything like that. It actually means you are smart and confident. I have had so many clients say to me, “I was so afraid to admit I needed help” or “I was afraid to share my struggles” but as soon as they did, they felt a great weight off their shoulders and were able to start moving towards finding solutions to their challenges. And, let me tell you, as much as I’m preaching this right now, I, too, find it very difficult to ask for help. But, I take a deep breath and do it, because I’m worth it.

Well, there you go! If you live in the north, you’ve had a refresh on how to handle sliding on ice and if you live in the south, you’ve had a chance to be glad you don’t live where it snows. And hopefully you’ve all learned some tips for handling sliding back while working towards your goals. Before I go, I wanted to share some advice that some of my fellow coaches shared on this topic. Denise McMahon shared that she uses backslides as an opportunity to have her clients consider questions like:

Am I facing any new or unforeseen barriers?

Have I really slid backward or am I expecting myself to be perfect?

Do I need to tweak my tools and strategies to gain some momentum again?

Am I shaming myself or creating negative stories that are preventing me from taking the next step?

What's one small thing I can say yes to?

Can I introduce novelty to respark my interest?

And, Tina Conte shared a great quote from author, Robert Brault:...taking a step backward

after taking a step forward is not a disaster, it's a cha-cha.”

And that’s our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Be sure to check out the show notes for further reading. Please share our podcast with your friends, family, and colleagues. We appreciate it so much! You can reach out to me at [email protected]. I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or spotify, give us a boost by giving us 5-star rating! Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

In this week's episode, we explore the fascinating world of the human brain and its impact on stress management, parenting, and relationships. We had the privilege of inviting Dr. Alison Roy, a licensed clinical psychologist, and a bona fide brain enthusiast. I first heard Dr. Roy speak during the pandemic, and her insights on the brain, trauma, stress, and parenting were truly impactful.

In our conversation, Dr. Roy sheds light on the science behind our reactions to stress and provides practical advice on how to maintain control and leverage our executive function skills—the skills governed by the pre-frontal cortex, a term you've probably heard me mention quite often. The aim? To improve and maintain our relationships, make parenting a bit easier, and in general, navigate life with a better understanding of our own minds.

I urge you to listen to this episode, even if you're not a parent or caregiver. Much of the advice that Dr. Roy shares is universally applicable, and her passion for educating others about the brain is truly infectious. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I relished being a part of it.

Here are some relevant resources related to the conversation:

Dan Siegel’s Books

https://drdansiegel.com/books/

Hand Model of the Brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFw

Polyvagal theory in practice

https://ct.counseling.org/2016/06/polyvagal-theory-practice/

YouTube Video of Dr. Stephen Porges explaining the polyvagal theory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3AUMDjtKQ

Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

https://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571

Dr. Alison Roy’s website

www.dralisonroy.com

Slides from Dr. Roy's Presentation

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pk9stUBGV0L0X4ES6Csb5_BXTjbGndfZ

Beyond BookSmart

https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Hannah Choi 00:18

Yay, I am so excited to bring you today's show. As a parent and an official member of the brain nerd club, I am totally geeking out about my guest, Dr. Allison Roy. Allison is a licensed clinical psychologist, and she loves the brain and teaching people about it even more than I do. I first heard her speak during the pandemic, and her presentations on the brain and trauma and stress and parenting were just exactly what I needed at that time. And I still use what I learned from her even today, when I had the opportunity to see her speak again recently, I knew I had to get her on Focus Forward so you all could listen and learn from her, too. In our conversation about stress and how our brains are impacted by it, Allison shared some really practical things that we can do to manage that stress and stay in our thinking brains, you know that prefrontal cortex, you've heard me mention, oh, a billion times. This way, we can use our executive function skills to improve and maintain our relationships with the people in our families, and make parenting a little easier. If you're not a parent, or a caregiver of kiddos, I encourage you to listen anyway, especially to the first part, most of the advice that Allison shares really does apply to all of us. I truly hope you enjoy this conversation, as much as I enjoyed being a part of it. Now on to the show.

Hannah Choi 01:55

Hi, Alison, thank you so much for coming today, to talk with me about the brain, and parenting and executive function skills. I am just going to share with the listeners a little bit about how I met you. I during the pandemic you gave some presentations, virtual presentations through our public school system. And I'm not kidding when I say that those presentations and the way that you presented it made just like a massive difference for me and my family during the pandemic and actually get emotional when I think about it. Because like that was such a difficult time. But learning, learning about the brain and learning about what some actual, like real things that I could do that would make a difference made such a difference. And it also really informed my coaching. And it just informed my, my I already really loved the brain. So it just like reinforced that. So thank you so much for that. Yeah. And then we were reconnected recently when you spoke again, at our for our parent presentation. And again in our school systems, which was excellent. And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast,

Dr. Alison Roy 03:09

Of course, I'm really excited to be here. And it's so fun to be able to do stuff virtually. When you're not, you know, I'm in New Hampshire. And it's not always, you know, right down the road. So it's nice to be able to connect to different places and areas of the world. It's one thing that pandemic gave us.

Hannah Choi 03:26

Yes, yes. Yep. And it's amazing. You can still have such an impact on someone's life even virtually so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so would you introduce yourselves to listeners and explain a little bit about your background?

Dr. Alison Roy 03:43

Yeah, so my name is Dr. Alison Roy. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New Hampshire. I'm located in Exeter, New Hampshire, which is right on the seacoast area of New Hampshire. And I've been a psychologist for about two decades now. And I've practiced all over the world, I've had really cool opportunity to live in Europe and live in Asia and learn a lot and see a lot and experience a lot as a psychologist but also as a mom and as a family. So to my kids were born overseas. And so it's been a really fun adventure to kind of just see the world and learn a lot about human brains everywhere. As Hannah said, I'm a total brain nerd. I love understanding the neuro psychology or neurobiology of what's going on. When we're having real life experiences. It's validating to know that there's really things happening in our brain as to why we're feeling or thinking or doing in that moment. I specialize actually in post traumatic stress disorder and trauma. And that's how I got called upon quite a bit during the pandemic because we were all kind of going through something it was the first time we could really say that we were had a global trauma or stressful event and so a lot of districts, school districts did right by the parents. In our district and invited experts in to talk about why this was really hard. And it continues to be hard. We're all still healing from those couple of years. So I'm excited to come on today and talk about what that might look like in your own home. And hopefully it's validating and acknowledges, you know, some of what you experience every day. And and yeah, we'll do a little little brain learning together, too.

Hannah Choi 05:22

Cool. Thank you. Yeah, that validation piece was really important. For me when you gave that presentation, it made me feel better about like, why am I feeling this way? Oh, okay. It made a lot more sense. And I felt like, yeah, and then I felt like I could forgive myself a little bit, which, which felt really good.

Dr. Alison Roy 05:40

So good. Good. Like I said, so I'm a parent, too so I get it. I get it. I have three little guys. So yeah,

Hannah Choi 05:46

Yes, yes, you do get it. Yeah. So I would love for you to kind of just maybe even just do the same presentation that you did before. Because even though I knew a lot of what you shared, just hearing it, there's something about the way that you present all the information that just makes it really accessible and understandable. So would you share with our listeners, what you've taught, so many people about the brain and stress and how to manage it all.

Dr. Alison Roy 06:18

iI would love to. It's my favorite thing, to talk about the brain, I'm gonna pull up some slides, just mostly, as I was, you know, we were chatting before we got on today and started recording, I really just need help staying on track, actually, so. So it's helpful for me to have some slides to look at, so that I stay focused.

Hannah Choi 06:39

So I will, before you start, I just want to say that I will share these graphics in the show notes for anyone who's listening. So you can look along if you'd like.

Dr. Alison Roy 06:49

Absolutely, yeah, there's not gonna be there's gonna be three slides, I think three or four, maybe that will be good to kind of check out so. But I'll do my best to make it feel like you're looking at something even if you're just listening to us today. So so let's talk about this human brain of ours, and what happens when we experience stressful events. And these stressful events can come in a variety of ways. So certainly, you'll hear me talk about, alright, this is really what we're going to talk about today is that fight, flight, or freeze reaction that we have. And so we think about this a lot when we think about life threatening situations. So I always use the universally scary situation for all of us of being chased by a bear because I feel like I don't know if there's a human on this planet that would find that to be intimidating. So if you're being chased by a bear, you want this system to kick in and save your life. However, which is great, right, we have this great human system to do that, for us to to save our lives. However, your human brain does that reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction for many different reasons. And it could be that in a singular moment, you've something alerts your brain, and we're going to talk about how that would all the things that happen in that millisecond in your brain allows your brain to think, Oh, this is a life or death situation, when it's not actually and you have that reaction, your brain can also be pushed into that fight flight or freeze mode very gradually. So I call it the slow build or the fast punch. So it can happen in a fast punch type of way, like being chased by a bear or having a in the moment reaction. Or it could be that slow build, where you're you've had a stressful week. And just one more thing happens and you feel like you kind of fly off the handle or go into that fight flight or freeze mode. So again, this this part of our brain is is really amazing. And we want it to work because it saves our lives, it just can be a little frustrating when it's a really active system that fight flight or freeze systems activating a lot or too much. And we're being pushed into this red brain zone that we're going to talk about in a minute. So let's talk about these three zones. If you're a listen to this podcast regularly, you know a lot about that green zone up there, that executive functioning zone, that frontal lobe, that's where all of our beautiful executive functions are housed. And we only have access to our whole, all the colors of the brain, when we're at rest and digest. We call it rest and digest when we're at rest, when we're not stressed or not thinking of a million things or running around or doing a bunch of errands or you know have a project do at work and all the all the things are happening. So when we're when we're at rest, we have access to our full brain. So in other words, you don't need to have a diagnosis of ADHD in order to have the frontal lobe part of your brain be impacted and have a difficult time with some error executive functions. Because stress stress interferes with your ability to really access those at their full potential. So that's the green part of the brain as the first part of the brain that comes offline when we start to become stressed unfortunately. So the next part of the brain next part down is called the kind of the blue brain or the emotional brain. This part of the brain is all All about feeling, not about rational thoughts. So I like to call this part of the brain, the toddler section of the brain, about a toddler, right? They're all about big, big emotions, zero rational or logical thoughts. So that's really what the Blue Brain is all about, and needs the green brain in order to have that more rational or logical thought process. So when that green brain comes off line, you're left with a lot of emotions. And those emotions dictate your fight flight or freeze mode. And as you can probably imagine, if you're not connected to ration or logic, and you start to have an experience that might be overwhelming that emotion can overwhelm you and send you into that fight flight or freeze mode pretty easily. And then there's the red brain, the red brain is our survival brain, our reptilian brain, you've probably heard it called these things. Its sole job and purpose is to keep us alive. And so again, really cool part of the brain, really frustrating when it's in the driver's seat too much. And so what that part of the brain is engineered to do is be in control of our heart rate, our respiration, our blood pressure, our sleep wake cycles in our satiation queues, whether we're hungry or thirsty. And that's it. So as you can probably imagine, you've heard this used before, right? Like I can't even think about tomorrow, I just have to get through today. This is the kind of language we use when we're in that red brain, or we're just not hungry. Because we're just so focused or so stressed on getting through that part of the day.

Dr. Alison Roy 11:33

And so the red brain, when it takes over really only wants you to focus on those kind of survival functions, it doesn't want you to focus on doing math or being organized, or quite frankly, having empathy or compassion for others. So you can see how when you think about how you are as a human, when you're really stressed, we're not our best selves. And so we when we get pushed down into that red brain, that's the reason why that happens. So let's take a deeper look at how that happens. It's not something that we have control over, and nor do we want to have control over it. Because again, we want this to be the most instant automatic function that we have, because it's survival based. And so again, if a bear pops out of the woods, when you're hiking, you want to not think at all about your pot, you know, what you could do to get away you want your body to kind of react naturally. And hopefully, you freeze, right running away, or fighting a bear is not the option that your body wants you. And we're going to learn that we can go either way fight or flight or freeze, and that we all have the ability to go either way it as I'm talking a minute, I'm going to talk about those two kind of options, and what they look like in real life. And you can think about yourself or your spouse or partner your own children and kind of think about where they might fall, because some of us tend to have an automatic stress response of either fight or flight or freeze. But we have the ability to go either way. And sometimes it's dependent on the stimulus or what's happening in our environment that pushes us into that red brain. Okay, so when our amygdala, which is a very tiny structure is a tiny but mighty, very tiny structure in our brain that is working constantly. It works about three to 10 times a second, if you've never experienced any traumatic event, if you have any sort of traumatic event in your history, or you're just having a really stressful week, your amygdala is hyperactive hypersensitive, so it can be up to a scanning the room that you're in up to 100 times a second, so very, very active. So it's, it's like a smoke alarm or smoke detector. So its job is to scan your environment and decide if anything in that environment is scary, upsetting, worrisome, overwhelming, uncertain, even, like exciting. So even really positive over like big emotions can cause this amygdala to react. And the amygdala gets all its information to make this decision from your five senses. So it's use very, very connected to your five senses, meaning it uses smell, it uses temperature, sense of touch, temperature, sensing, Sight, Sound, so I like to give the example of one time I was I was talking about this with I work a lot with educators. I was sitting in a room with educated with a group of educators. And we all I'm, I'm quite literally talking about this slide and the smell of gas started coming into the room. And so you can see all the rooms kind of gets a little wide eyed and let's start looking around. That's your amygdala kind of going, um, something's going on here and like smell the gas and I know that means that this could potentially be a bad situation. So again, it's are five senses that tip off the amygdala. And have it kind of sound the alarm for lack of better words in our brain. And a cascade of actions and reactions happen very quickly. So again, this activates very quickly, you can think about when you get really upset, I was talking the other day about, when I get really upset, or my kids get really upset, we're a family of Door-slammers. So we'll kind of stomp off and slam the door. And of course, if you had rational, logical thought happening, you would know not to slam the door. But in that moment, that's the way your body's releasing that reaction. So that this cascade of actions and reactions start happening. So the amygdala says, "Oops, something's going on". It shuts down the green brain, and most of the Blue Brain, it kind of stops, I've seen the brain scans is stopped sending neuronal activity there. So those areas of the brain, when you look at like an fMRI or an MRI, you can see that the areas of the brain where there's neuronal activity happening, it's all colored, it's all lit up. And when this happens, it goes completely dark. So we kind of shoot go right down into this red brain. Because our brain is saying, I need to survive, right now I need to spend all my energy, all my neuronal activity, just within this red brain of focus in this very moment on survival. So green brain and Blue Brain mostly kind of shut down activity. Also, our left side of our brain goes completely offline as well. And the left side of the brain is where all the else so if you've ever read anything I learned with Dan Siegel at all, he's a great, he's a great person to look up and kind of explore a little bit, the whole brain child is his book. It's one of his books, he has many by great parenting books. But he talks about all the ELLs are all housed on the left side of the brain language, linear logic, all these beautiful ELLs while you lose them all when you go into the stress mode. And so you lose your words, you can't put good sentences together, you can't have a good linear sense of time. So you're kind of mental timeline gets all messed up. And so, so all of this is, believe it or not, all of this has happening in that moment, when you start to become stressed. Your memory processes also shifts. So the way we remember things shifts very much to our five senses. And that's where we get kind of trauma triggers from as our brain latches on to those five senses. In that moment, it doesn't remember things with language, because the language centers aren't accessible. And we lose our words, like I said, we lose our ability to have language in that moment, and certainly, this is one of my favorites, ways of looking at all this beautiful executive functions. So all of what you're seeing on this screen is all of the executive functions list. So impulse control, be able to take turns focus, concentrate, attend, have perspective, taking have empathy, all of that is, is beautiful, and a beautiful part of our human brain will all of it goes out the window when we start to go down into this read brain. And so as you can probably imagine, as an adult, you know, you know this, we have a fully developed frontal lobe by about 25 ish. And so we have the best frontal lobe we could possibly have. So when we lose a lot of this in a stressful moment, we still have more capacity than a child does. Because a kiddo doesn't have that fully developed frontal lobe yet. And so when they go into stress brain, we really see some big reactions with very little logic or rational thinking. And they tend to go on much longer, think epic temper tantrums, because they don't have this ability to access any sort of frontal lobe functions. Okay, so last little part I'll talk about today. And maybe one more slide. But this this is, so this is not my image. But you can see that the website that's on there, they have some great information as well around mental health and just they have these graphics that they produce, to be able to help people be able to talk about this stuff more, they just want to promote people talking about it, which is great. And so what I like about this is it shows in real life, and I'm going to talk about this what it looks like when we're having that red brain reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction. And this is based on the polyvagal theory of the stress response system. And that's Porges' theory. And again, if you Google polyvagal theory, you'll come up with lots of really fascinating information. There's volumes and volumes written about it. And it's my favorite way of kind of thinking about or talking about the stress response because I feel like to me when the first time I learned this, it was so incredibly validating because it just made the neuroscience make sense for real light. Yeah. So let's look at this for a second. So In the middle, this, the person you see in the middle is at rest and digest, meaning there is no alarm bells going off with the amygdala, all parts of the brain are online. And she's quite literally at rest and digest, which means she looks happy or relaxed. She looks happy. Yeah, this is what we want to be at, right? This is where I would hope we would spend most of our time. So you know, she's able to have a heart rate, that's nice and even blood pressure's in good shape, respiratory systems in good shape. And she's quite literally able to digest her food, actually heard a really interesting NPR story, just coming out of the pandemic. So probably late last year, when they were talking, they're interviewing primary care doctors who said they were prescribing and acids or digestive aids at like a very high rate. And it's makes sense because we spent so much time being stressed our digestive systems, one of the first systems that will be implicated in that. So we can't digest our food if we're not if everything else isn't at rest. And so it is going to see if you have heartburn, indigestion, belly aches, tummy aches, and we hear this a lot from our kids when they're stressed. It makes perfect sense because the digestive system gets very complicated.

Hannah Choi 21:17

I remember when I was in graduate school, I had really bad acid reflux. And now I know.

Dr. Alison Roy 21:23

Yes. Oh, absolutely. And terrible sleep patterns. Probably. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The two biggest disrupted system. So yeah, yep. And they're always my biggest red flag. So I always when a family comes to me, I do a lot of work. So I have a private practice as well. I do a lot of work with adolescents and young people and their families, I do a lot of family work. And that's one of the things I asked first about what are your sleep patterns, like what are eating patterns like, because often I can find a lot of clues within there, that the family system might be stressed. So if we're not at rest and digest, and we've seen over the past several years with what we've all been through, with a pandemic, and everything that has brought with it, that this window of rest and digest should be about here, and it's been it's shrunk, it's a little bit smaller for all of us, because we've just spent so much time being stressed. The beautiful part about the human brain, which you probably also know if you're a brain geek, like me is the human brain has neuroplasticity. So just because it's shrunk over the past couple of years doesn't mean we can't expand it as well. So that's good. That's a really great part. Yeah, it's a really beautiful part, you just have to work on it. And we're going to talk about so I'm on the left hand side, you see what looks like this same character in the middle who's at rest and digest has now been pushed into what we call hyper arousal, which is fight or flight. So you can see her kind of running away from the situation, which is a lot of our reactions. When we get really stressed either we physically run away, or we feel like I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where your body feels so agitated, like you just want to get out of the situation. Or yeah, yes. Or it comes out in aggression of some kind. Not all of us don't slam doors, like maybe my family does, but you feel like your fists might be clenching up, you feel your body tense up. So that is because in that hyper arousal fight or flight mode, we're producing so much adrenaline and cortisol, that our body to quite literally get ready to run away or fight something off. Our body doesn't really know what to do with that. And that produces certain symptoms, like irritability, anger, frustration, crying, again, stopping slamming doors, yelling, screaming, crying tantruming. So any of those over the top kind of emotional reactions, that's hyper arousal. Now I'm sure there's some of you out there going right now. Oh, yeah, no, that's me. I definitely do that. Just hyper aroused, stressed person. So if that resonates with you, that is real, and there's a reason why that's happening. So, or if that resonates for your kiddos, if you have a kiddo that becomes very overly emotional when they're upset as well, that that hyper arousal reaction. Now on the other side of the screen is our character kind of curled in a ball, head down, looking pretty sad or withdrawn. This is hypo arousal or freeze mode. So freeze doesn't always mean quite literally freeze, it means your body is shutting down in order to survive by reserving all of its resources. So your blood pressure is going to drop very, very low, your heart rates going to actually slow down, your breathing is going to slow down because your body's preparing to survive in a very different way. And so that's what we're seeing here and this looks very similar to depression. It looks like we don't want to engage with others, we want to kind of shut the world out, we want to just kind of go to sleep or sleeping in too much sleeping is often a sign of a stress response. So shutting down in that way, or I do see, especially some of my high achieving adolescents that I work with. And also we do this as adults a lot is what we call fawning or robotic compliance, where we're just like, everything's fine. I'm totally fine, everything's fine as one of our legs is quite literally on fire. So. So we do that, too. We try to avoid the stress and pretend like it's not happening, but then it almost always bubbles over in some way. So this is a polyvagal theory. So check it out, get some more information about it. I do really like it. And it makes sense to me. Okay, last slide. Like I promised, I just wanted to highlight. Again, if you're having some sort of stress in your life, some overwhelming stress in your life, there's systems that are most impacted by stress, our sleep, eating and digestion. So if you start to see disruptions in any of those areas, so sleep, having a hard time staying asleep, falling asleep, having nighttime disturbances, like nightmares, or night terrors, or sleeping too much. Usually, it's to avoid that might be a sign of stress eating, we either eat too much, because we're trying to sell suit or make ourselves feel better with food, or we're not eating enough because we're not attending to those social social cues that you didn't get the eating cues, association cues. Also, I just read a really interesting study about "hangriness". I don't know if anyone gets hangry. Yeah, I do. And so my kiddos, well, there's a good reason for that our cortisol levels are inversely related to how full or hungry we are. So we get really hungry. Our cortisol levels skyrocket. And so it's all about glucose and cortisol levels. And so there's a real again, a real reason why we get hangry.

Hannah Choi 27:04

That's also validating, to hear Yeah, right.

Dr. Alison Roy 27:08

Not crazy. There's reason why I get hangry. So bring snacks always bring snacks, and then digestion. And so if you have a kiddo, or yourself who's got some tummy troubles going on, you just always feel like you've got an upset stomach, even we feel this in very small amounts, if we're going to give a presentation or we have something that we're quite anxious or nervous for, right, we get that butterflies in our stomach. So all of this just kind of combined, is I find it validating. It makes me feel like okay, there's real stuff going on, when we start to become really stressed and go into that stress mode. So, yeah,

Hannah Choi 27:44

Great, thank you. I feel like something that I just have noticed in my life. And just everything that I hear from people is I feel like people talk sort of peripherally about sleep and make sure you sleep enough, make sure you eat enough, make sure you know, you're exercising or whatever. But but it almost feels like it's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know. But it's true. You really do need to, it's that conversation. I feel like needs to be taken more seriously. Or something. We need to change the message somehow this is not just Yeah, yeah, thing like, need to, like really address it.

Dr. Alison Roy 28:25

Yeah. And if you think about if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs another really great accessible thing to Google will really resonate with a lot of listeners, I bet. But Maslow's hierarchy of needs is all about how do you achieve your full greatness, essentially, and you have to start the bottom part of the triangle, the bottom part of that triangle, the first step to achieving greatness is taking care of the most basic of needs. And if you don't do that, you can't move up the ladder. And so there is very good solid research decades and decades of research around sleep and eating and just the basic needs needing to be taken care of because our brain needs rest in order to have that ability to have neuroplasticity and grow and change.

Hannah Choi 29:10

Yeah, yeah. Yep. Great. So how is so how does so can you give some examples of like in someone's household, like how this kind of stress might impact everybody? Yeah, parents down to kids.

Dr. Alison Roy 29:26

Yeah. Yeah. So I always think about, you know, I, so I, I work a lot with the director of psychiatry at Dartmouth, and he and I have become really good friends and I have a really tough situation I'm working through I often call him and I did that for one of the families I was working with. I said, I just need some help. I need some strategies on what to do next. And he's said, sounds like you've got a polyvagal storm happening in that family. And I loved that concept of that image of that poly vagal reaction. I was just describing fight flight or freeze, if you're all having it individually as a family, you're all going to be having it as a family unit. And because our brains do play off each other. So there's lots of really good research out there about mirror neurons, which are also part of our frontal lobe. And our mirror neurons talk to other human brains, especially ones that we're very connected to. So our family members, all of our mirror neurons are very, very connected. And so when we start to get stressed, meaning us as parents, our kids brains are going to automatically respond to that. And it's crazy, if you were to, if you were to spend a lot of time being stressed as parents, and you looked at your cortisol levels, and even though your kids are experiencing that stressor, maybe it's a stressor at work, or you know, it's adult stuff that your kids aren't necessarily aware of, but there's cortisol levels are going to rise to meet yours. So our brains are very interconnected in that way and can play off each other stress wise. So it is important, we as parents are guilty of not taking care of ourselves very well sometimes. But if I can, yeah, it's hard if I can get you to buy into doing some self care for for you, but also for your kiddos, because the more you stay regulated, the more likely they're also going to be regulated. And you won't get caught up in that polyvagal storm.

Hannah Choi 31:26

Yeah, I remember that so much. Especially when my kids were younger. I I just remember thinking like, oh, yeah, this is we're all we're all like feeding off of each other right now. Nobody is helping anybody right now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember one particular moment, right after my son was born. So now. So at this point, I have like, maybe like a month old baby, and then a three year old and then me. And then my husband was working from home. And he came up from his basement office, and the three of us were sitting on the couch crying. He was like, oh, no, what happened? And I knew what happened. Yeah. We all I'm sure needed a snack.

Dr. Alison Roy 32:09

Yeah, and probably a nap. So yeah, we started there, or you're probably tired, or you're probably hungry. So

Hannah Choi 32:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a strategy that we teach our clients that you maybe you've even heard of, because I don't think we came up with it. HALT stands for like hungry, angry or anxious, Lonely or Tired. And it's such a good thing to check in, check in on.

Dr. Alison Roy 32:32

Yeah, and one of the, one of the ways so we've we've already talked about a couple of the ways to stop this polyvagal response from happening in his tracks, is to, you know, figure out basic needs or there's some sort of basic need, because if you're hungry, if you're tired, you will trigger that red brain response. Whether even if like your amygdala picks up on nothing else in the environment. Unfortunately, your amygdala also picks up on internal cues. So even if you're thinking about something that's stressful, your amygdala will also pick up on that. So even if the environment around you is as calm as can be. So um, so yeah, we always talk about that strategy. But also, you know, if you're like, Okay, well know that they've gotten enough sleep. And we don't need a snack right now, we just had a snack connection, human connection. So let's fix that loneliness, like you just said, is actually the number one way to decrease that red brain response. Because if you remember the Blue Brain, you've got partial Blue Brain online, when you're even when you're in that red brain response. And that that Blue Brain is looking for MI loved. And if you're able to connect with someone, and it doesn't have to be very long research shows it has to be even 30 seconds of connection. So a hug, can can calm that red brain or at least bring a little bit more of the blue and green brain back online.

Hannah Choi 33:56

I remember learning about that. Like she called it a 20-second hug in the book "Burnout". Yeah, yeah. And as one way to, like close that stress loop. And so the other day, my son had a really stressful morning before school, and, and he was really having a hard time. And I was like, You need a 20-second hug. Come here. Yeah, I was like, Mom, I don't have time for a 20-second Hug. Dude, you need it. So, I scooped him up. I'm like, Just relax into me for 20 seconds. I think we lasted maybe 10 seconds.

Dr. Alison Roy 34:30

I think that's funny. So two thoughts about that. One is parents always asked me but what if they're not wanting a hug in that moment, and I and I get that I've been there. I don't have teenagers yet. But I can imagine with teenagers that's particularly hard. So sometimes I say to him, I said, Do you need a hug to my own kids? And they'll say no. And sometimes I'll say, well, I need one. And that's not untrue. Actually, there's a lot of times where we're having some sort of stress response together and I could use a hug as well. And that'll Almost always loops almost always get them so. But the other thing I wanted to say about that is I taught from the book "Burnout" for several years. And I love that book. I love that. It speaks our language, right of like the brain's response to burnout. And someone came back to me and said, you know, you talked about the 20-second Hug. And my husband and I have now decided when we get an argument, we're going to stop and do a 20-second hug and then continue the argument. And she said, It works every time to do that's awesome. It's super awkward because it's, if you actually time 20 seconds, it's a long time to be so funny. I was like, That's a great story. I love it.

Hannah Choi 35:41

I love that. Yeah. It's funny. That's, that's, that's great advice. And I actually learned that a long time ago when my daughter was one I was at I was in a mom's group and someone in the moms' group brought an astrologist to the moms' group. And she just did like little mini readings on all of our kids. And she told me, she said, you're Yeah, it was very cool. She said, Your daughter is not going to be a hugger. But she's going to need hugs. So you're gonna have to tell her that you need a hug in order to get her to get the hugs that she needs. So I've always used that for her.

Dr. Alison Roy 36:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And 'cause some people aren't naturally that way. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 36:25

Yeah. And that reminds me of the article that we talked a little bit about the last time you presented that, or in the New York Times article, where the teacher I think, asked, "Do you need to be hugged, heard or helped?" And, and I love that, and I love that she said that she finds that most people just want to be hugged. Which which shows, yeah, you do need that physical touch.

Dr. Alison Roy 36:50

Right? Yeah. So most people in that I think what happens when we become stressed is or when we see a loved one being stressed. So as a parent, especially I find this when our kiddos are stressed or upset or frustrated, or whatever that big powerful emotion is. It's hard for us to tolerate that distress because we love them. And we don't want to see them hurting. And also, it's upsetting to us. So we start to have reaction that we don't like, either. So it's really hard to watch that. And so what we typically end up doing, I think I talked about this is trying to fix, because our heap, that's what our human brain does, our human brains are problem solving machines. And so they like to be able to solve the problem and move on. But as we know, most problems aren't solvable. And so when we need come up against something that's not solvable, or that's uncertain, or doesn't have any answer, it does send that secondary brain red brain reaction. And so, as parents, it's hard to pull it back and go to that. Do you need a hug? Do you need to be heard? Or do you need to be helped? Because we jumped to the helped part. And a lot of the times when we're upset, we're not ready to be helped. And I think I said this too, when we were talking earlier is that men, dads, tend to go to help even quicker, like that male kind of response. I'm sorry, that's your male brain. I'm sorry. Yeah. They are the problem-solvers. And so really helping just us as parents learn. Asking that question first helps to slow things down. To give that hug to hear them out to validate validation doesn't mean you agree, you can say I'm sorry, you're sad. Sounds like you're sad, anything like that, even if you think it's ridiculous at their side, and this will be up here and that internal dialogue, right, this is crazy. I can't believe I'm validating the side of this right now. Yeah, they need to be heard. And then you can get to that problem solving piece if they're when they're ready for it and you allow those first two steps to happen. Usually, then they're on board for Okay, let's move forward. How do we do that?

Hannah Choi 38:58

And the easiest way to do that, I imagine is if you are regulated yourself, and yeah, accessing that your frontal lobe and your executive function skills, you need that perspective taking and cognitive flexibility, right, empathy.

Dr. Alison Roy 39:13

Yeah, so it's always okay to take a minute. I talked sometimes about the show "Bluey". When I talked to parents, and I don't know if you're, we're a big Bluey fan in our house and

Hannah Choi 39:24

My kids are too old.

Dr. Alison Roy 39:26

Yeah, oh, that's too bad. You should watch it anyways. Um, yeah, it's totally entertaining his parents, but there's an episode where the mom and the two there's two little girls and the well, they're all dogs, but they are, you know, it's after school very clearly. And the kids are like, oh, oh, and mom's making snacks. And she's looking a little stressed and the dad comes home and she's like, I need a minute. And he's like, yep, yep, no problem. And so she goes and takes 20 minutes. And chaos ensues while she's gone, but adorable chaos. But you know, it's always okay to take that time to say, I just need a minute to be able to then come back and as long as you come back around and are fully engaged. Yeah, so, and Dan Siegel talks about that as well, in his book, Parenting From the Inside Out, he does a really great job of talking about engaged, sometimes you're ready to engage, you come home from work, you walk in the door, let's do it, I want to play Legos. And I want to get down on the floor, and I want to engage, and I'm gonna see all the things you did at school today. There are other times we come in the door. Likely, it's those times when our red brains already been activated before we come in that door. And we're just not ready to go down that path with our kids. Yep. And it's okay to say I just need 10 minutes, set a timer, and I'll be right there with you, and then just loop back around with them. And that that repair that coming back around can be just as powerful if not more

Hannah Choi 40:48

And such good role modeling for your kids. That it's showing them it's okay to do that. Yeah. So I have

Dr. Alison Roy 40:55

Impulse control. Yeah, our new society is on demand. And so have prolong that reward. It's super, super beneficial for their frontal lobe. So yeah,

Hannah Choi 41:09

I have a friend who has shared with me that it's, she finds it very difficult to take that pause, she, she immediately reacts, she, like immediately yells or immediately wants to fix something. And it's really difficult for her to just breathe and stop. And so do you have any recommendations for parents who might feel that way?

Dr. Alison Roy 41:30

Yeah, so some of us are naturally chemically made that way, well, we're just more reactive. So I would say in the moment to try to take a breath to try to remind yourself to that pause, remember hug, heard or helped, right. So just in that moment, trying to remember those steps. So that's something there's also a lot to regulating when we're not dysregulated. So working in regulation to try to ease off that irritability when we're not in the moment. So that's always something I try to recommend to parents get that regular, regular diet of regulatory moments, and they don't need to, I don't need to be big. And I think that was something I needed to hear, especially during the pandemic is, you know, like I said, three to five minutes, if it's a regulatory activity that you enjoy, whether it's taking a walk, or getting some fresh air, getting sunshine, or listening to a good song or podcast, you don't need a ton of time. And it can be less 30 seconds or less if you're just doing that physical connection. So just trying to weave those in throughout your day, to kind of keep that irritability level a little bit lower

Hannah Choi 42:37

The baseline, get the baseline lower.

Dr. Alison Roy 42:39

The baseline, right? We want to keep in that tolerance there. And then the last thing I will say is, it's okay, if that's your natural personality, or if you're in it right now, you know, meaning like maybe all three of your kids are under the age of five, and you're spending a lot of time in that zone. Because what can be even more powerful is if you have that snap reaction, the moment is being able to come back around and say, I'm sorry, I wasn't my best self. And here's how we how can we do better next time and making it about the week? It's about the pair? It's about that dyad a parent child, how can we do better next time. And that is, it's so so powerful, the repair. And it's also a really good role modeling of accountability, I just read a really good article about, we want our kids to be accountable. And accountability isn't something that's naturally kind of within us fully, we have to have that modeled and demonstrated for us. And the parent apology is so powerful and modeling accountability. And then the last piece, I'll say about that, yeah, that was I was cool article for me to read. I thought, Oh, this is really cool that we want our kids to be accountable, we have to demonstrate that. And the last thing I'll say about that is is changing the way we talk about apologies and this is something I've been pretty. Ever since learning this I've really helped my kids kind of understand this and as a family understand this is when we apologize, it's we don't have to say it's okay. There are times when it's okay, and we can say that's okay. There are times when it's not okay. And so it's better to say thank you for apologizing, because it makes it more about the weight of the apology and appreciating that than it is about the action that caused

Hannah Choi 44:22

Right, right, right. Something that I remember from your presentation, during the pandemic, you talked about how repetition like repetitive behaviors can be really calming to the brain. Can you share a little bit about that?

Dr. Alison Roy 44:40

Yeah, so rep got repetitive, rhythmic? Any sort of anything like that? Can be it resonates with that bottom part, that red part of our brain, and that's something that we are wired for as humans from the get go. So when we're in utero, we're being regulated by our moms, right, there's nothing that we can do to regulate ourselves. So we're being regulated by, certainly her body temperature, her way of feeding us, but also her body movements, or rhythmic movements and her heartbeat. And so we are pre programmed to have that resonate with the most primal part of our brain. And so the brain scans that they've done just show when we do these repetitive rhythmic movements, how it engages and lights up that bottom part of the brain shows us or demonstrates to us that that's really that's the language of that part of the brain. So if we want to regulate that part of the brain, so that's why swinging. So you see kids that are, you know, have those swings at school. So swinging, walking or running is so helpful. So they'll actually there's been studies done where kids with speech and language delays, they'll put them on a treadmill and have them do their like activities on a treadmill and how much more productive they are, because it's just regulating that caught in that red part of their brain and the left side. Yeah, so really cool. Drumming. So anything like that, if you can think of rhythmic and repetitive, anything, those two words are really, really regulating coloring. So even this motion of coloring, these things really do work. So again, giving science so what we're told, right, there's like these coloring books, these adult coloring books and yoga and walking and running. And, you know, why are why are these things helpful? Well, there's a real reason why they're helpful. Because it does resonate with that part of our brain.

Hannah Choi 46:44

Right? I love that. It really, truly does. And I've said this before, so many times on the podcast and all of my clients, I'm sure I'm like, yeah, yeah. But to learn to learn about what's going on in your brain, just helps so much understand, like, why I'm so like, why am I supposed to do these things to help myself? And just knowing that why really, for me, always motivates, motivates my, like, just motivates me in doing those things. Yeah, yeah. So as soon as like, as soon as I learned about how it never even occurred to me, but like, you have to practice your, whatever self regulation strategies you use, you have to practice them so that so that they're easily accessible when it's time to use them. And yes, and it didn't occur to me like, well, we practice walking, so that walking is easily accessible to us when we need it. Or we practice anything like anything that we need to come easily to us. So learning that about, about whatever self regulation strategies that we need to use, yeah, let's practice them. So I just like drive around doing that square breathing. And, yes, and then it just comes so much more easily to me, when I'm in a moment where I'm like, Okay, well, yeah, you know how to do this.

Dr. Alison Roy 48:07

I always say, practice and have any tools that you might need to regulate, like, I'll go back to the coloring have a coloring book and crayons. Yeah, whatever it is in a designated place, because you go, last thing you want to do is be stressed when you're trying to find your regulation.

Hannah Choi 48:20

Where's my coloring book?

Dr. Alison Roy 48:22

Yeah, that is and you talk about practice square breathing, just to go and we'll do one more geeky brain thing but neuronal development is, you know, it's a, if you don't use it, you lose it. So if you don't use parts of your brain that actually will, your brain will prune that area of your brain. And so we definitely want the brain pruning what we want it to prune and not pruning other things. But neurons, we say "neurons that fire together wire together". So the more we use in neuronal pathway, like square breathing, the more wired it becomes, the more quick and accessible. This is why we practice tying our shoes, we practice riding our bikes, you know, as kids, there's lots of examples of that neuronal development of creating that pathway that's quite clunky at first, and then the more you use, it becomes lightning fast, because it's well oiled machine. And so you want that to be true for your coping skills or regulatory skills as well.

Hannah Choi 49:18

Yeah, I give both my kids play instruments and I, they're so tired of me hearing hearing me talk about executive function skills, and the brain. But I do remind them like, you, when you first got that piece of music, you looked at it and thought, Oh, my brain, like I don't know how to do this. And now you can play it without even looking at the music. And that's such a good evidence that that it is yes, we do get better when we practice and it's so worth it to put effort into the things that we do.

Dr. Alison Roy 49:47

Yeah, music is part of that rhythmic repetitive. That's why so many of us are regulated by music of some kind.

Hannah Choi 49:55

Yeah, yeah. So you have anything else that you that's that you want to share with parents who might be struggling in the moment.

Dr. Alison Roy 50:05

Yeah, I think the last thing I'll end on and this is just something I love talking about, because for me as a parent, I think it changed. The way I parented when I learned this is all about temper tantrums, and where they fit into this profile. So I think I mentioned temper tantrums are red brain reactions. So when we're having one of those temper tantrums, our kids are having one of those temper tantrums because we have we have them as adults. We don't ever stop having temper tantrums. That's a big myth, no, we always have them. But it does look different depending on how much frontal lobe we have. But when our kids are having those temper tantrums, when I was an early parent I was always told to ignore leave them alone, have them leave the room. And what that actually does is create this secondary panic response. Because in that moment, our red brain is looking for hugged helped or you know, heard. And so I always give the example of the first time I learned this about a temper tantrum not to ignore but to actually engage. I tried it. I called I called my colleague after this is all over and said, Oh my gosh, it actually worked does not magic, it actually worked. So my youngest, he was about two, maybe two and a half at the time. And his name is Finnegan and he is fiery Finnegan Riley, and he fits that name perfectly as a fiery Irishman. And he wanted a popsicle. I was like, Oh yeah, sure, buddy. Go ahead and and went into the freezer, and we only had orange popsicles and full blown meltdown. And in that moment, his brain viewed that as a life or death situation. I'm laughing because as adults are like this, isn't it? Yeah. So I was I saying to myself and my in my head, right internal dialogue. This is crazy. But on the outside, I said, Oh, buddy, I know it's so hard when you only only have orange popsicles and you want a red one. I'm sorry, you're sad? How can we help this to go better, I got down, I just sat down on the floor next to him. And just kept kind of saying those things over and over again. And he eventually crawled in my lap and was he was still sad. But was able to then calm down. And you know, when I before I did it, I thought isn't that giving in to the temper tantrum? reinforcing it right? This is what we're always afraid of as parents is reinforcing it. And no giving into the temper tantrum or reinforcing it would be driving to the store and getting that red popsicle. In that moment. All I was doing was giving his red brain what it needed to be able to get that logic and rational thought what little he has

Dr. Alison Roy 50:26

Whatever he has

Dr. Alison Roy 52:40

To come back online. Oh, okay, I'm, I'm this is, you know, there's still popsicles just not the color I wanted. And how can we move forward? So yeah, it's not perfect. It's not a perfect science. But, you know, learning that I think, to me really changed the way I parented.

Hannah Choi 53:05

Yeah. And it is so hard to because we're also probably pretty, if we're not, maybe we're just in our emotional brain, but we're probably also a little bit down in our red brain. So it's hard. We have to, like, get ourselves out of there to be able to do that instead of just yelling it or just slamming the door and leaving the room. Right? Yes.

Dr. Alison Roy 53:26

Yeah. And I found that reaction to be calming for me to to be like deep breath. Yeah, how crazy this is. Yeah, get on the floor. Right. Right. It's really hard. Yes. You saying it to yourself to man, this is really hard.

Hannah Choi 53:41

I'm having a hard time. I'm having a hard time. Yeah, yeah. I remember putting my daughter in. She wouldn't she was tantruming for so long. And I was just losing my mind. So I ended up filling the tub. And I put her in clothed in the tub. And she stopped

Dr. Alison Roy 54:02

Yeah, cuz her amygdala needed something temperature wise. Yep. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 54:07

yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Alison Roy 54:09

Do the best. We do the best that we can we do

Hannah Choi 54:12

That's right. That is right. Sometimes they go in the tub clothed. At least I made the water warm. At least I didn't wasn't like you're getting cold.

Hannah Choi 54:26

All right. Well, thank you so much, Alison. This is just I mean, we know both of us could probably keep talking about this all day. But forever as I Yeah, people probably have places to go or they have like regulating activities to go practice.

Dr. Alison Roy 54:41

I hope so. Go practice your regulating activities!

Hannah Choi 54:44

I hope so too. And can you share with our listeners where they can find you and maybe some of your favorite resources that people might want to check us?

Dr. Alison Roy 54:53

Of course I have a website that I'm super terrible at updating but it does have some good resources on it. Hi, it's Dr. Alison roy.com. All one word, Dr.AlisonRoy.com. And then within that website, there's lots of different links to stuff including my YouTube channel, which is where I save a lot of the good resources that I find is even a playlist for parents and educators. So check that out. Certainly. And, yeah, that's, that's hopefully some resources for you.

Hannah Choi 55:25

Great, thank you so much. And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about your brain. And if you weren't a brain nerd like me and Alison already, hopefully, we've convinced you to join the official club. We'd love to have you. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to some of the topics we cover today. And you can find the links to the slides that Alison referenced. If you know anyone who might be feeling the stress of parenting. Wait a second, I think that's all parents. Please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. You can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

You may or may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics but in a live setting, it's such a blast and I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about Executive Function skills and discover how life changing they can be to work on. We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our latest webinar, “Your Kid’s Not Lazy: How to Unlock Motivation Through Executive Function” to our Focus Forward listeners and share some bonus content for those who happened to be among the 1300 people who registered.

This past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, their related Executive Function skills and challenges and some tools and strategies you can use to help make motivation a little easier for your kids and/or yourself. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the q&a feature on Zoom and then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. For this webinar, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So, I invited our panelists, Amy McDuffie and Vin Kachurik to join me the day after to help answer a whole bunch more. Keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our bonus conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills, and self-advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate to. The new section starts around 44:08 if you want to skip right to it!

If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, BeyondBookSmart.com. They're always free and we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable.

In the meantime, here are some resources related to the episode:

Full recording of the webinar

Michael Delman's book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay

Blog on ADHD & Motivation

Link to agenda and webinar slides:

Info about Executive Function coaching

Supporting College Students - including Covey Quadrants

How to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment Experts

Dr. Lisa Damour’s Advice for Motivation to Do Homework

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript:

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. You may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics. It's kind of like Focus Forward live. It's such a blast. And I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about EF skills, and how life changing working on them can be.

Hannah Choi 00:47

We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our webinars to our Focus Forward listeners. There's just such good stuff in there, and I wanted you all to be able to hear it too. If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, beyondbooksmart.com. They're always free. And we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable. So this past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, the related EF skills and challenges and some tools and strategies to use to help make motivation a little easier for our kids and ourselves. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the Q&A feature on Zoom. And then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. And this past week, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar, and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So I met up with our panelists, Amy and Vin, the next morning to continue answering them. So keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills and self advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoy today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate do. The audio begins when I introduce our panelists, I figure you wouldn't want to listen to all the housekeeping stuff that I covered in the beginning. And if you attended the webinar, so you've already heard the audio from it, you can jump ahead to 44 minutes to hear these Q&A questions. And now on to the show.

Hannah Choi 02:39

All right, let's get to know our panelists. Both of our panelists tonight are Beyond BookSmart coaches, and they also provide additional support to both our coaches and our clients caregivers as Executive Function Consultants. And first up, we have Vin Kachurik joining us from Ohio. Vin please tell us about yourself and your roles at Beyond BookSmart.

Vin Kachuik 03:01

Hi everybody. As mentioned, my name is Vin Kachurik. I use they/them pronouns. I live on a farm in Ohio with my spouse and my elderly Greyhound, he's sleeping over here next to me. I'm an executive function coach and consultant here at Beyond BookSmart. And prior to this, I taught creative and academic writing at the college level for about 10 years. Though, given that most of my students were first years, I feel like a lot of my classes would have been better titled "How to survive college 101". I feel like I spent as much time teaching students to manage the challenge of college as I did teaching them writing. But that experience really helped me develop a lot of the skills that I use now, experience that I hope will be helpful to you today.

Hannah Choi 03:43

Yes, absolutely. Thanks, Vin. It's really great to have you here with us tonight. Next on our panel is Amy McDuffie joining us from North Carolina. Amy, can you please share your background and the work you do at Beyond BookSmart?

Amy McDuffie 03:56

Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone. I have been a coach with Beyond BookSmart for the past two years. And I'm also a member of our hiring team and an executive function consultant. I use she/her pronouns and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities working with students from elementary through high school. I'm also a former behavior specialist supporting students from kindergarten through eighth grade with a focus on social emotional learning. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens. I have a 14 year old daughter and a 17 year old son. And I'm so glad that you all are here and I'm really excited to be with you.

Hannah Choi 04:39

Thank you and welcome, Amy. All right. So let's get started. Motivation itself is not an executive function skill, but it is supported by and made much easier by a bunch of EF skills. If you hear me say EF it's short for executive function. Cognitive flexibility is needed to imagine a future state that is different from now and come up with ways to achieve it. Working memory helps to keep that future goal in mind. organization and planning are needed to sequence the actions to get ourselves to that future state. And task initiation gets it all going. And emotional regulation helps us maintain optimism and persevere despite setbacks. So it's not really surprising that kids with EF weaknesses or ADHD can have concurrent issues with motivation. However, these underlying executive function challenges are often to ignore are often ignored, or unrecognized, or worse, misconstrued as laziness. So all of these EF skills that help with motivation live in the prefrontal cortex, our thinking brain, it's right behind your forehead. So if we have these prefrontal cortexes and EF skills that are supposed to be helping with motivation, why is it still so hard to get motivated? For kids, one huge part of the answer to that question is that their executive function skills are still developing, they're still emerging. And these skills don't fully develop until our mid to late 20s. So in addition to not having access to fully developed EF skills, they also don't have as many years of experience as we do, and learning like what works and what doesn't work. And remembering this can help us be empathetic to our children when they're struggling with motivation. They're not doing it intentionally, or to be contrary, although it can feel that way. They're lacking the skills. And when we view their behavior only through our adult lens, it can set up unrealistic expectations for them.

Hannah Choi 06:44

Our motivation, and the related EF skills can also be impacted by systems in the brain. The limbic system, and especially the amygdala, which detects threats cannot differentiate between real threats like a car accident, or a bear attack, and perceived threats, like a lot of homework or having to clean your room. And so the limbic system detects the threats, and then says, "Alert, alert, get out of here or fight back, because this does not feel good". And in doing this, it actually hijacks the thinking part of our brain, and it sucks energy and blood and oxygen away from it, and makes it harder, sometimes even impossible to access our EF skills, which as we know, we need to motivate ourselves to do the things we don't want to do. So managing our emotions so that we can stay in the thinking part of our brain is a huge part of conquering motivation. So stay tuned, because we're going to cover the executive function skill of emotional regulation benefit. Another really, really, really important thing to look at is the ADHD brain, and how motivation is impacted by ADHD. Amy, you are our ADHD expert. Can you explain this for us?

Amy McDuffie 08:00

Yes, thanks, Hannah. So there's some fascinating research on the impact of ADHD on motivation. And understanding these dynamics can really help us to empathize with individuals with ADHD. So ADHD is associated with lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. And this changes how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure, which causes a lack of enthusiasm for starting or completing tasks. So this might be one reason you have difficulty with motivation if you have ADHD. And this can also mean that kids with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which has a negative impact on their self perception and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier to getting started, it can become a self reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing because all that stress just makes the brain shut down. And another big difference in the ADHD brain involves the brain structure called the default mode network, which is the part of the brain that activates when we're daydreaming or not focused on a task or activity. And when the brain is directed towards a task or goal, the default network deactivates. But in ADHD, this part of the brain is more often activated, which leads to your focus constantly being pulled away from what you're doing in the moment, and toward completely unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on really tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of will, it's a matter of neurology, and that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD.

Hannah Choi 09:56

Yes, thank you so much, Amy for that. I know it really helps me to understand what's going on in the brain. And I always work with my clients to help them understand. So I hope you all found that helpful too. And if you're concerned that the causes of lack of motivation in you or your child run deeper than EF challenges or ADHD, please reach out to a mental health provider to explore the possibility of depression or another diagnosis.

Hannah Choi 10:25

Okay, so now that we have a better understanding of how executive function challenges and learning differences, like ADHD can impact motivation, we can see how the label of "laziness" is often unfair. Yet, it can often go a step further, being repeatedly told you're lazy, can weave itself into our perception of ourselves and our inner narrative, like Amy said, and it makes it harder to break free from the label, as you may even begin to believe it yourself. And this is where having someone you can rely on for support, who's outside of yourself, who doesn't have the same perspective of you. And that becomes essential, they can help break those narratives and introduce new habits and ways of thinking. And I know this comes up often for us coaches, and so Vin, could you share a little bit about how you approach breaking that negative narrative with your coaching clients?

Vin Kachuik 11:17

Yeah, I'm happy to. So as Amy and Hannah both mentioned, that negative thought cycle can be really, really debilitating. So one of the first things I focus on with clients is finding and celebrating those easy wins. My favorite approaches to this are things like acknowledging overlooked successes, and also finding simple goals that are fairly quick to accomplish with little support. So for instance, if a client tells me that every day they get up with their alarm, I am just over the moon for them like to do that consistently is an absolutely amazing skill. It's a solid routine they can build other routines off of and it obviously not everybody can do that. And this shifts the perspective from what the client is not doing that largely comes from those expectations to what they are doing, showing them that they have skills and strengths to be confident in. And if that same client tells me that they want to do something like keep their clothes off the floor, but they just can't start that task of picking them, picking them up and organizing them. A simple win could be just taking the time to say, let's try it now and see what we can get done. There's no expectation of completion of the task here. The goal is to take some of the stress out of just initiating that task, and celebrate whatever progress comes of it, which can often be enough to sort of break that negative mindset. With both of these approaches, though, I always try to understand why the client wants to accomplish a certain task. Because often what reinforces the negative cycle are expectations that don't value the same things that our clients do. undervaluing the ability to consistently get up with your alarm makes the very tools that can help our clients seem worthless to them. And overvaluing. A tidy room can negatively incentivize our clients to prioritize a task that isn't really important to them and often sets them up for failure. So to kind of put it simply -"too long, didn't read", to help turn someone's negative narrative into a positive narrative set up and celebrate an easy win to show them their value, and then reflect on what they value and why.

Hannah Choi 13:36

Thank you so much. And I love that someone submitted this request with their webinar registration, which I think many of us will relate to. And it also gets to the "why" that Vin was just talking about. One registrant wrote, "Please help me understand why my son can be so motivated to get schoolwork done, but says that closing his dresser drawers and picking clothes up off the floor or cooking himself oatmeal is too much work". This is such a great question because it illustrates how much motivation is affected by whether we want to do this thing or not, whether it's important to us or not. And our parent perspective sure can be very different from our kid's, or even our partner's. So in this example, the student is more motivated to do schoolwork than household tasks. And it may be because his schoolwork is just more important to him. But to his parent, those household tasks are also really important. So how can we reconcile these differences in perspectives? Let's check in with our coaches to see what they have to say.

Amy McDuffie 14:44

All right, so I want to talk to you about a tool called HALT which stands for hungry, angry or anxious, lonely and tired, which I find to be really helpful to use this tool. These are all general triggers that can lead to poor self-control. And this is a good tool to use before addressing those differences in perspectives and just communication in general. You know, we all know that if someone initiates an important conversation when we're exhausted or haven't eaten all day, it's so much harder to receive the information and have a productive conversation. We're just not as great at communicating when those needs aren't met. And speaking of communicating with our kids, I know that we all want to help to problem solve to jump in and be a fixer. But we really have to remind ourselves that listening is the most important thing we can do when our kids open up to us. And this requires us to really tune in and avoid focusing on our own responses while our kids share their struggles with us. Our colleague, Denise taught me the acronym "WAIT" which stands for "Why Am I Talking?" as a reminder to just listen, we also have to remember that our kids experiences are very different from ours, we really have no idea what it's like to grow up in 2023. And it's just not helpful to operate from the place of "When I was your age...".

Vin Kachuik 16:17

That's so true, Amy, thank you. And another tool to kind of go along with that that I like a lot for this is Covey quadrants, Covey quadrants or sometimes referred to as the Covey Time Management Matrix, or the Eisenhower Matrix - it's got a lot of names- for prioritizing time, and tasks. So essentially, each task is classified by its urgency and importance, which then organizes it in to one of the four quadrants shown here. So quadrant one is the urgent and important quadrant, it's the top priority, the thing you really need to get done now. An example might be the big math exam is tomorrow, and you need to prepare. The action for this is do it to the best of your ability, complete that task as you can. But keep in mind that putting too many tasks in this quadrant can be overwhelming, and often causes burnout, which may be why, you know, in the question, the kid was like, "Oh, I can't make oatmeal, but I can do my homework". Well, that's because that quadrant was already full. In quadrant two, the not urgent but important quadrant. That's for things like keeping up with an exercise routine. The action for that is scheduled it. This is something that you want to make as routine as you possibly can. And because this is where the deep work and skill building really happens and where most people tend to be at their best. Quadrant three, urgent but not important. Something like it's garbage day, your chores need to be done tonight. An action for that is to either delegate it or ask for help with it. This quadrant often involves learning to set boundaries, and advocating for yourself by asking for help when it's needed, or learning to say no to what you can't accomplish. And lastly, Quadrant Four, the not urgent and not important quadrant. That's for things like watching Tik Toks, or TV. The action for this is unfortunately "delete it". These are often low value instant gratification and avoidance coping strategies, which isn't to say you can never enjoy a little fun and leisure time, but just not to the detriment of other priorities.

Vin Kachuik 18:36

So if defining urgency and important importance feels a little too subjective to you, something you can do is use just a simple one to 10 rating scale to help clarify the value of each task. Using this framework allows us to better see and illustrate our own value systems. But the most important important part of this is following up with those tasks that aren't as valued. For instance, watching hours of Tik Toks not as an act of laziness or defiance, but recognizing it as a poor coping strategy when faced with a bunch of disorganized and overwhelming tasks that you don't know how to start or manage. Recognizing this provides an opportunity, like Amy was saying, to better understand differing perspectives, and reconcile those differences in expectations that can often lead to conflict.

Hannah Choi 19:28

Thank you for those, Vin and Amy. And the other strategy that may help with sharing expectations and understanding perspectives is family meetings. And there's a lot of great resources online for learning how to hold effective family meetings. And yes, you'll probably get some pushback from the kids but stick with it. The experts promise that it's worth it in the long run. And you'll want to keep that HALT tool in mind and make sure everyone is well fed and rested before you start the meeting.

Hannah Choi 19:54

All right, so now that we've learned about the development of executive function skills, motivation and the the brain and how differing perspectives can play a part? Let's look at some specific tools that can support motivation. As many of you asked about this, then and Amy, what are your favorite tools and strategies through their coaching clients to help them get motivated?

Vin Kachuik 20:16

Oh, so one of my favorite one, it's actually two tools, I use them together. It's a combination of first step and five minute goals. These are two of my absolute favorites. And I tell clients to use this all the time, I find is really effective for task initiation, which can often be the most challenging part of any task. As the name suggests, first step is all about finding the first step to a task that makes sense. And five minute goals makes doing that step seem a little bit more manageable by setting the expectation of only having to do that task for, you guessed it five minutes, after those five minutes, if it's not so bad, then you know, keep going, great. If you can't do it any more than just celebrate that you did at least five minutes of work, which is infinitely more than doing nothing. It seems simple and straightforward. But part of why this is so effective, is that more often than not, we tend to view tasks based on their last step, we make dinner, we finish our homework, we go for a run, and so on. And we lose sight of the initial steps that we need to get there, like deciding what to make for dinner, gathering homework, materials, and warming up for a run. But even knowing where to start isn't always enough to muster the motivation, especially when the steps that follow feel big and insurmountable. So this is really where five minute goals comes in, to better manage those expectations and keep the focus more on those short term steps that ultimately lead you to that task completion.

Amy McDuffie 21:50

Thanks, Vin, that's really helpful. Another tool that that I like to use to address motivation is called decisional balance. And this tool examines the potential benefits and costs of making a change, and also for keeping things the same. And this can really help determine why making the change or doing the thing is important to you. Even if it's something that you find really mundane, you know, thinking about, is there some bigger benefit down the road. You know, motivation can really be impacted about how we feel about a task. And I just think this is a really great tool. It also supports self regulation, metacognition, and even planning, prioritization and time management skills.

Hannah Choi 22:37

Yes, thank you, Amy. And I wanted to bring up Covey Quadrants one more time, because in addition to helping us understand each other's perspectives, as Vin shared with us, this tool can also help us with motivation. And by completing the activity of the covey quadrants, you practice the executive function skills of planning and prioritizing. And Covey quadrants can help you define what you truly need to work on first, and because sometimes it can feel like everything is urgent and important, which can make it hard to get started. And so Covey quadrants kind of helps you narrow it down. And it can also remind you of those quadrants and those activities, sorry, in quadrant four, which might provide temporary relief from the discomfort of doing the things in quadrant one and three. But in the long run, these activities can have negative consequences. They divert time away from the important and urgent tasks in quadrant one. And they also divert time away from those energy giving and rewarding activities that are in quadrant two. And if you're having trouble getting buy-in from your child, or even yourself, to do this whole Covey quadrant exercise, you might instead try simply making a list of everything that needs to get done. It sounds simple, but it really does help to get it out of your brain and onto paper. And just like Vin said, thinking about tasks as a whole can feel insurmountable, but seeing them written down one by one can help.

Hannah Choi 24:04

Okay, so let's quickly visit the emotional right? Let's quickly visit emotional regulation. That's an executive function skill that is key to pretty much everything. That was what we - I mentioned that back when we were talking about the brain. So as we learned, being able to regulate our emotions is a huge, huge piece of the motivation puzzle. And it's much harder to use our EF skills to complete or even start a task if our emotional brain is taking control of the situation, instead of our thinking brain. So panelists, would you please share your favorite emotional regulation tools that help us stay in our thinking brain?

Vin Kachuik 24:46

Yeah, sure. I'm personally a big fan of breathing - Need it to stay alive but some simple deep breathing techniques can also do wonders for emotional regulation, especially with just a little bit of practice. What I'm particularly fond of is the four by four square breathing technique. So you breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, and hold for four. And there's tons of other variations on that as well. There's ones with visuals, geometric visuals and meditations to follow and things like that. But what I find most effective about this is that it gives something specific to focus on the counting, or the visual gives you something specific. I hear a lot from my clients, especially those with ADHD, that they just they cannot meditate, because they can't keep their mind clear, there's just too many thoughts. And they don't know how to put them aside, counting using the four by four can aid that focus to practice deep breathing, even without a clear mind, and you still get the one of the most beneficial parts of meditation from that.

Amy McDuffie 25:53

I totally agree with you, Vin. Breathing is such an important tool for emotional regulation. And going back to our HALT tool for just a moment, I think we also need to be mindful of the role that sleep plays and emotional regulation, we can probably all attest to the effects of a poor night's sleep, you know, we tend to be so much more irritable and vulnerable to stress without sleep. So just a few tips for improving sleep, are sticking to a regular wakeup time each day, getting some sunshine in the morning, if possible. This really just helps to reset our internal clocks, and making your bed a sleep haven. So avoiding using it for work or homework. And also avoiding blue screen light because that really stimulates our brains. I also encourage clients to establish a bedtime routine that includes calming activities, leading up to that time, you know, something like reading or practicing that deep breathing. Even using an adult coloring book can be really soothing, really just anything that signals to our brains that we are preparing for sleep.

Hannah Choi 27:04

Yes, so important. Thank you so much for sharing those, Amy and Vin, those I use those, they work very well for me. And I also need to make sure I get a lot of exercise. And I also noticed my kids do a lot better when they've been active. So something to remember is that with these emotional regulation tools, and any of the other tools we mentioned tonight, we have to practice them regularly for them to do us any good. They need to be able to come easily to us when we need them. And that's only going to happen if we practice them. And sometimes kids can be resistant to using external tools. So what we can do is normalize using them by using them ourselves. And we can show them like, "Hey, I'm gonna write this down. So I don't forget it" or "My day is going to be crazy. So I'm going to write down everything that I need to do". And so showing them that you can use those external tools and have it be really helpful. Okay, so we're going to jump into our Q&A, and see what questions we can answer for you. Thank you for dropping some in there. Let's see. Hey, Amy, would you like to share how we can teach executive function skills over the summer summers coming up?

Amy McDuffie 28:15

Sure. I think summer is a really great time as coaches to work with clients on EF skills, because it really gives us the opportunity to work with clients in a you know, low stakes, low pressure situation, you know, looking at what their goals are, what their interests are. Personally, I have really enjoyed coaching in the summer by tapping into clients' interests. Last summer, I worked with a client who wanted to learn how to create a graphic novel. So we took that project and, you know, basically identified all the tiny steps to take along the way to, you know, to reach the bigger goal of developing that graphic novel and worked in so many EF skills along the way. So, yeah, there's just so many fun things to do over the summer with coaching.

Hannah Choi 29:11

Great, thank you. All right. So let's see. Here's another one. What are some strategies to help kids who know what they are supposed to do and how, but still avoid the task because they find it boring, time consuming and not engaging for their level of intelligence?

Vin Kachuik 29:30

I can take that one.

Hannah Choi 29:33

Okay, thanks, Vin.

Vin Kachuik 29:35

There's so first of all, a little personal background from that -been there. And both personally and professionally. One of the best recommendations I have is, honestly, I had another layer of challenge to what they're doing. I mean, a lot of times creativity and intelligence kind of go hand in hand. And so there's a lot of opportunity to invite a creative perspective on how They approached that work, maybe, you know, taking it up a notch to do beyond what the assignment asks for. And to do part that something is a little bit more interest to them, even if it means a little bit more work, at least there'll be a little bit more engaged in doing that. And sometimes to the other option, that I find is that a lot of times, a lot of times clients and students who have done that, or struggle with that, they're not being challenged enough in other ways, even just beyond the classroom. So even just affording an opportunity prioritizing something that is more fun and stimulating to them, can kind of open them up to like, Okay, well, that was great. So I feel good. Now I can just tackle these other tasks. Easy peasy.

Hannah Choi 30:48

Yes,

Amy McDuffie 30:49

I love that.

Hannah Choi 30:50

All right, I see a question that I'm gonna steal. How do you stay motivated through transitions, my kids always struggle with change, and their already rocky systems tend to crumble? Yes, this is very tricky. I actually interviewed a licensed clinical social worker for this, her name is Rachel Hulstein-Lowe. And you can listen to that episode, if you go back a few episodes in there in our podcast. And yeah, we talked for a long time about that, and how challenging that really is. And those transitions can come, they can be expected transitions, like the beginning of the school year, the end of the school year holidays, or they can be unexpected transitions, like you have to move or, you know, just some some unexpected change that can happen. And the most important thing is to have some thing for your kids to fall back on. So they have like a really safe place at home, they feel really comfortable at home. So a lot of that, like validation and connection that we can make with our kids to to give them a safe place to feel to be. And then also the sleep, nutrition, exercise. Those three are huge. Without taking care of those, it's very difficult to manage those already rocky systems. And so it can sound silly to just to say that those are important, but they truly, truly are. And then also practicing some mindfulness can be really helpful too. So, you know, just take some time to be in your body and to see how you feel. And to just check in with that can also be really helpful with that emotional regulation that comes with those challenging transitions.

Hannah Choi 32:36

So, all right. Let's see. Um, let's see, how do you support a 10 year old who is reluctant to change? Anybody want want to dive in for that?

Amy McDuffie 32:54

I'm happy to jump in on that one.

Hannah Choi 32:57

Thanks, Amy.

Amy McDuffie 32:57

Thank you. Sure. So working with with a younger client who's reluctant to change, you know, I think it all comes down to just being able to connect with them and find out what's important to them, even at 10 years old, they're gonna have strong opinions and interests of their own. So I think it's really important to tap into that with them. And then, you know, also see, you know, what is motivating to them? What are they motivated by in their interests? And, you know, look at, you know, kind of bigger picture, like, do they see areas where, you know, of their strengths, what are their strengths and areas that they need to, you know, maybe potentially grow in. And if you're able to kind of, you know, access that that gives you an opportunity to really work with them on, you know, let's see where we can make some small changes and just kind of experiment with some making some changes and see what happens.

Hannah Choi 33:59

Yeah, and that's why when we work with our clients, we never, like give extra work or anything, we just work with what our clients are already doing. So that can be helpful to get that buy in and make that connection is, in some is meeting them where they are.

Hannah Choi 34:20

All right, let's see, oh, someone would like Vin to share a few more examples of how to increase engagement by adding a layer of challenge.

Vin Kachuik 34:30

Sure. So one that I like a lot, actually. And this helps in two ways is actually timing your work giving limited chunks of time to do it. So basically challenging, so like, how can you get this done in an hour? Yeah, you're smart. You're good at writing, right? You know, can you write this paper in an hour? I bet you can. Yeah. And not only so that does a couple of things. One, it gives them a time limit to stay focused on the task. so they don't sort of lose themselves in the weeds and get bored. And then again, adds that layer of challenge to it. But the other could be something along the lines of, you know, giving them the freedom and flexibility or challenging them to do extra research into what they're doing. You know, if they're doing a set of math problems they know how to do, and it's just really boring to them. Then you ask them to maybe find new math problems or harder math problems, ask them to explain those math problems, to you to be the authority to be the teacher is the all of these are really good ways to add an extra level of challenge and also responsibility that can kind of take them out of that. This is routine. This is boring, I don't want to do it, feeling.

Hannah Choi 35:47

Love it. Let's go back to the brain. Amy, you noted that low levels of neurotransmitters means that successes can be less reinforcing for those with ADHD. If this is the case, do small wins or other strategies help someone with ADHD initiate tasks?

Amy McDuffie 36:06

That is such a great question, isn't it? Yes, yes. So yes, the answer is yes. Those small wins, absolutely help someone with ADHD, initiate tasks. As coaches, our job is often to help clients recognize those small wins, I find that working with clients with ADHD, they tend to have more difficulty, you know, recognizing what the small wins are, or just not seeing not seeing them at all. And we really have to, you know, look for those small steps that they're taking, and help them to recognize that, you know, because that's a bigger part of the issue is, you know, the, the negative reinforcement that they've received, and, you know, kind of that perpetuating, you know, narrative, and, you know, experiences of failures. So, it really is helpful to recognize even what we consider those small wins to help them get started.

Hannah Choi 37:08

That's great. Thank you. All right. My child is entering college in the fall. Any tips to help prepare for this change? It's a big one.

Vin Kachuik 37:20

Oh, man. So there's, yeah, there's a lot college is crazy. There's a lot to prepare for, for that. Um, honestly, I think the biggest thing and the most price specific advice I can get give is self advocacy. It's navigating college is really a matter. Like, I there's this mentality, that when you go into college, you have to listen to what everybody else says and does all the time. But like they're there to serve you. You're paying to go there, your education is a matter of what you choose and get out of it. So there's a lot of self advocacy needed, especially in terms of saying, hey, I need help with this, Hey, I need help with that. How do I do this? And there's tons of resources on campus, the best and most successful students I've seen are the ones who are not afraid to walk into somebody's office and be like, Hey, can you help me? And like, nine times out of 10, that person will, because that's their job. That's what they're there to do. So tell them you know, really tell them, Don't be afraid. You are ruler of the roost, king of the castle, they're, they're there to help, you know, and you have to advocate for what you need.

Hannah Choi 38:32

Yes, I always encourag/make my college clients make sure that their teacher knows their name by the end of the second week. And it has come in handy. So many times when they've had to remember I had one client who had to miss midterm because she was really sick but because she had developed a relationship with a teacher, that teacher was completely understanding and was really gentle with her and allowed her to schedule it on a different day.

Vin Kachuik 39:04

And the more you talk, the more you self advocate that yes, yes. And absolutely. And it makes that whole process so much smoother.

Hannah Choi 39:12

Yes, a lot of feedback that I get from my college clients is that they were scared or really nervous to approach their teacher. But then afterwards, they realize, Oh, they're just human. And then they were not they realized that they didn't have to be nervous, and then it was just so easy to do it the next semester. Yeah. Something else that I recommend for for entering college is just understanding that 80/20 switch. So when you're in high school, you know, like, the 80% of it is done, maybe like in in school, or with a lot of support and then 20% of it you're going to do on your own, but it's the complete opposite in college and there's just 20% of support given and then you are sponsible for that other 80%. And that can be really shocking. I had a client say to me, I realized that I have to spread out my work over a few days, and not just do it all like the night before it's due, which is usually what we have to do in high school, just do it the night before it's due. So that's a good thing to keep in mind.

Hannah Choi 40:18

All right, um, okay, so since this webinar addresses kids, are there any suggestions for motivation that apply to adults? I just want to say that everything all of this can use for adults.

Vin Kachuik 40:37

Apps? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, really, any of this, this, this is not stuff that's unique to kids. There's plenty of adults who struggle with this, I would say, probably the best suggestions I have are for really kind of going back to that self reflection and understanding your values value system. It can get very easy to get sucked into the rat race of doing things to other people's expectations, and to the detriment of yourself. So I would say the tools that we use, like HALT, you know, checking, regulating yourself that way, because you can't help anybody else. If you haven't helped yourself, it's like oxygen masks on an airplane. And, and honestly, also, the Covey quadrants are a great way to kind of break down your day and your routine and say, like, what is really important to me right now? Yeah, it literally addresses that what is important, because it can be easy to get lost in things like saying, Well, my work is important, doing the dishes are important. But maybe in a given moment, spending some time with your family is actually the thing that's most important, it gives you that that sense of longing, or that sense of sorry, family and like reduces that sense of longing that you may feel that loneliness and HALT, right, and also just strengthens those bonds.

Hannah Choi 42:03

I love that. All right. I think we have time for one more. Do you have a suggestion of digital planners or calendars for those who have reading and writing struggles, maybe dyslexia and ADHD, who need more executive function help?

Amy McDuffie 42:21

I'm happy to jump on this one, Hannah. Thanks, Amy. Sure, sure. So absolutely. Digital planners and calendars are so helpful. I highly recommend Google Calendar, it's easy to use, it syncs across devices. And you know, even you know, younger children with access can even utilize them as well. I utilize them with both of my children just with us planning events and appointments so that they know what's coming up. And it's really helpful. There are so many other apps to use. As planners as well, there's iStudiesPro, My Study Life, I know that that one is free, and I believe it was actually developed by a students with along with her mom, it's a really good one. And I know a lot of clients who also use the Todoist app as well. So there are just a number of them out there. And just on a personal level, I also really, I knew this is not digital, but I use a bullet journal for myself along with my Google calendar. And it's just a great way to kind of list out all of my to do's each day in conjunction with my calendar.

Vin Kachuik 43:37

I add one thing to that bullet journal. Yeah, they did the motivation. One of the things I love about physical planners, is I always suggest to my clients, customize them personalized for them, and stickers, raw all over them. Because honestly, we like pretty things. And if it's pretty attractive, we're gonna use it more. Absolutely.

Hannah Choi 44:01

I love it. That's my combo, too is the Google Calendar and a bullet journal can't live without it.

Hannah Choi 44:08

Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy and Vin the next morning, which I might add was Vin's first day of vacation. Thank you, Vin for taking some time out of your first day off to add your insights to our answers to these great questions.

Hannah Choi 44:31

Hey, Vin and Amy, welcome back. We had so many awesome questions at the end of last night's webinar that we just really wanted to get back into and answer some of them right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for joining me again.

Vin Kachuik 44:48

Sure. Thanks so much. It was great last night. Yeah.

Amy McDuffie 44:51

It was so fun.

Hannah Choi 44:54

Yeah, people ask such good questions, too. I always wish we could see them. That's the one thing that I don't like about I did it. I feel a little disconnected from our audience. So.

Vin Kachuik 45:04

So that is the part that you miss. Yeah, getting that like good audience feedback is really?

Hannah Choi 45:13

Yeah, it's like everyone has masks on, right? Yeah. Yeah, so let's dive in. Let's see, what's the first one? All right, what are the strategies to develop motivation and teenagers with Oppositional Defiant Disorder? What a great question.

Amy McDuffie 45:34

That is a really, really good question, Hannah. Honestly, I think that the strategies are pretty much the same as what we have already discussed. But just knowing that it takes so much more time, a lot of patience, you know, to work through those strategies. And, you know, really sharpening this communication skills that we had talked about is really, really important here. And I think that, you know, any opportunities for, you know, autonomy, and, you know, giving the child ownership in the process is super important in these situations.

Vin Kachuik 46:14

Amy? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean interrupt. I just in the webinar last night, you talked about like, the there's a lot of talk about, like the neurotransmitters basically, acknowledging the bad more than the good a lot of times. And do you think that Oppositional Defiant Disorder, like one of the issues is that being told to do something takes away that feeling of personal success and value of the task? Because you're doing it for somebody else's expectation? And not really your own? That makes it feel like extra negative? I don't know, does that tie in at all?

Amy McDuffie 46:46

I think it does, because I think that, you know, again, that that piece of autonomy is so important here. So I think that's a really good point, then. And, you know, kind of going back to that, you know, negative track piece, I think that this is another situation where, I mean, that's a hard diagnosis to have for a kid. It really is. And, you know, I'm always concerned, like when I see that label of what the child's perception is, and what they understand about that. So I think that that's all really important to take into account here. And I really love I love working with, with teens and kids that, you know, have ODD because I feel like, it's such a great opportunity to really connect with them. And that is the most important piece and to build that trust. And just to get to know them as a person versus, you know, what the, you know, what the label says, or what the challenges are. And something that I have found to be really effective is, you know, really trying to set them up for opportunities for success, you know, what are their strengths? And, you know, giving them opportunities for leadership, you know, how can we build their self confidence, you know, to combat some of that, you know, the negative, you know, framing that they've had for however long.

Vin Kachuik 48:13

Ties back into those easy wins strategy, like acknowledging what they're good at? And yeah, what's that? What's an easy task that we can support that they can do well.

Amy McDuffie 48:22

exactly, exactly. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 48:24

I had a, I had a client who I started working with her when she was a junior, and then through her senior year, and she had oppositional defiant disorder. And, and I did notice that, in the beginning, it was, well, I just noticed that biggest change in our interactions and her openness to try new things, was after a while, and after she learned that she could really trust me, and that I was like, trying to help her build that autonomy. And it took a while, but I did see a big shift in in her. I don't know her willingness to work with me, and to work on making some change after we had developed a really strong rapport.

Amy McDuffie 49:10

That collaboration piece is just so so important here. So yeah, great,

Vin Kachuik 49:16

Honestly, that I feel like that kind of ties into, because I saw that a lot with like, college age clients back when I used to teach college too. There's that mindset of, well, I have to only do what I'm told and I can't do. Like, I'd like I can have autonomy. What is that? I don't know her. And, like, I think that really ties into a lot of the struggle kind of jumping ahead of like pursuing the support services in college that we were alluding to back in the webinar. Like, I know that admitting admitting that you need help, too, is also a really hard part of the process. And again, I feel like the autonomy and the trust are the big parts of getting somebody to admit that they need help, like knowing that they're not going to be chastised for it or, you know, like made fun of or torn down or anything like that. Because again, there's just there's so much I hesitate to say fragile ego. But when, when the systems that you've been taught aren't working for you, and you've spent your whole life feeling like you're behind everybody else, you know, where do you develop the self esteem and the self confidence? You know?

Hannah Choi 50:32

Yeah. All right. And actually, I love that we started talking about that, because that was one of our additional questions that we got last night, pursuing us support services in college. So that's great. We addressed that as well. All right, I'm kind of on the same theme. is starting school, a starting a new school, a good time to start new habits? Or is that too much? What are your thoughts on that?

Amy McDuffie 51:00

I love that question. I think it's the perfect time to start new habits, because you know, starting a new school or a new school year, I mean, that is that is a fresh start. So I feel like that's the perfect opportunity to try doing some things differently. You know, getting into a different routine, and establishing, you know, those habits, figuring out what works. So yeah, I think it's the perfect time.

Hannah Choi 51:27

I think Vin's point about like, small, small things, like start small, maybe not overhaul your entire life.

Vin Kachuik 51:37

But I think another advantage of starting fresh is that there's fewer bad habits to have to break or overcome. First. I mean, that's one of the things that's kind of difficult about habit building, we'd like to think in terms of like building good ones. But a lot of times that means overcoming bad one, yes. Once that we don't even realize or habit. Right? Right, right. So starting in a new situation, you're a little bit more self aware. Sometimes that translates to self conscious, which can be a little overwhelming, but you know, you're more aware of new surroundings and all of that. So I think it's easier to avoid falling back into bad habits and building new ones fresh, as long as you start small.

Hannah Choi 52:18

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important to take time to reflect on what your previous experience has been, and what you liked about that, what worked for you and what didn't work for you, and what you want to change in the future. Because if you can spend some time having that conversation with someone who's going to be really supportive and open for that conversation, it can really help to narrow down what you want to start with, like what, what small goals you want to set for yourself. So that self reflection piece is really helpful in that in that instance. Great,

Vin Kachuik 52:56

Aefinitely a challenge of habit building, though, is taking it not just starting small, but taking a theoretically, I'm just like thinking, I'm thinking of the example of like all the people who are like, you know, New Year's resolutions style habit building of like, I'm gonna start my new diet and go to the gym, and, you know, I'm gonna be perfect and all of that. And it's like, okay, good luck with that, because, like, new skills and habits, you know, and you're like, expecting results in a day and setting super high expectations, and it just doesn't work that way.

Amy McDuffie 53:26

Yeah. And I think that like, that's a big piece of starting, you know, starting anything new is also looking at, like, you know, what's likely to trip you up? What's likely to get in the way here of, of this working for me, because it's, I think it's really easy for us all to, you know, to set goals. And unless we look at like, really, what are the obstacles? And how do I address those? You know, I think we can not be as successful if we don't look at those pieces too.

Vin Kachuik 53:57

Reckless ambition, the dark side of motivation.

Hannah Choi 54:02

I always ask my clients is the goal that you're setting realistic and reasonable, right? Like, be honest, let's look at you know, all of your life experience so far, Is this realistic and reasonable? Because you want to set yourself up for success? Nothing worse than not reaching any of your goals because you've set them too big? Right?

Hannah Choi 54:24

Um, okay. Here's a coaching question. How often would someone need to meet with an executive functioning coach to make it effective? Once a week, every other week more than once a week? I think well, it just really depends on the client. I think once a week is a great starting place. Sometimes I've done twice a week, maybe broken that larger time down into smaller chunks. What about you guys?

Amy McDuffie 54:54

Yeah, I do think it's a good place to place to start Excuse me. You know, just depending on what the needs are, and you can always, you know, make adjustments from there.

Hannah Choi 55:04

I think what it comes down to is consistency. Right? Right. So whatever, whatever you determine is the right amount of sessions or the right duration or frequency. It's the consistency makes a huge difference. Very important with anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, true. Basically with anything.

Amy McDuffie 55:23

Yeah, keeping that momentum going is so important.

Hannah Choi 55:28

Yeah, yep. Yep. All right, once a child gets interested in something that they wanted to do, how do you keep them motivated to continue with it, like clubs, clubs or sports, they love the sport and playing, but they don't want to go to practice.

Amy McDuffie 55:43

Oh, my goodness, this is so familiar, Hannah, just as a parent. So my, my response to this might be a little, a little different. But I just having had personal experience with this in my home with my kids. I, you know, we do things a little differently now. And, you know, when there's interest in, let's say, playing soccer this season, you know, we sit down and have the conversation about what those expectations are, and what it means to commit to doing this thing. You know, there gonna be days where you don't feel like going or you don't want to go, or you're just not as interested at times. But you know, we really talk about is upfront expectations so that we know what we're getting into. And, and the follow through that, like, okay, so you want to do this, and, you know, we're committing to do this for the next couple of months. And that means going to practice and just kind of laying it all out there before, you know, officially signing on to take on this thing. And you know, beyond that, if you decide you don't ever want to do it again, that's totally fine. We can look at other things. But, you know, again, I think it comes down to just having those conversations upfront about the expectations. And, you know, it's another opportunity to look at, you know, look at the why, like, why do you want to do it, and also look at, you know, those opportunities for successes, you know, within whatever the activity they're doing.

Hannah Choi 57:14

Yeah, my kids, both my kids both play instruments. And so we deal with this a lot. They both been playing for a few years. And so it comes up a lot that they're just like, I don't want to practice. And something that something that is important to me is that it is okay for our kids to have discomfort. It is okay for them to to feel like, this doesn't feel good. And I don't want to do this. But I signed up, I made the commitment. So I have to do it. If we always protect our kids from those feelings, and then say, okay, you don't have to do it. I know you signed up for it. But now you don't have to do it. Because you don't want to. No, like, I think they need to follow through on the commitment that they made. And yeah, they're gonna feel some discomfort. But they're also, you know, like you said, the expectations were set up. So now they need to follow through. And there's so many lessons to be learned in that experience. Yeah, it feels awful. But hey, you're part of a team, or you made a commitment to your teacher or whatever, whatever that commitment is that you made. I do think it is a great opportunity to teach kids about learning about that.

Amy McDuffie 58:31

Absolutely. And about perseverance, too. So yeah,

Vin Kachuik 58:35

Yeah, that discomfort really like learning to sit with that discomfort, is what helps you switch your perspective, from have to, to get to, which is very important for keeping up with that consistency. Because if you think of it is just a burden or responsibility, like, I have to go to practice. Yeah, that may not be the fun part. The fun part, maybe the game, maybe you like the sense of competition, you'd like to, you know, high intense energy, or maybe you just like the performing part or playing around with your new instrument or whatever. Practice is hard, but it's what allows you getting to do that is what allows you to get to the fun parts as well.

Hannah Choi 59:18

Yeah, and be better at the fun part.

Vin Kachuik 59:19

Yes, it'd be better like it makes it more enjoyable.

Hannah Choi 59:23

Yeah. Yeah. My dad said to my daughter, he's a musician too. And he said, you know, what the, your motivation should be for practicing is so you don't feel like a jerk at rehearsal when you're the only person who can't keep up with the music. Practice so you feel confident at rehearsal. That's great. Yeah. One of my favorite quotes ever is by a psychologist called Susan David. And if you guys haven't looked into her stuff before, you got to read it, read her things. It's, she's amazing. And she has this quote that, ah, "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And I just love that. And so whenever I'm in a situation where I am feeling uncomfortable, I just remind myself like something good is gonna come out of this, you're going to learn from this, you're going to have some amazing experience or whatever. And it truly is. So, it's good for kids, too.

Vin Kachuik 1:00:21

of emotionally regulating that I can't stress the breathing enough and hold. Back to those references again. Like if you can't stand the discomfort, a there's either something wrong, you need to, you know, eat some food, drink some water, get some sleep, something like that. But like, if you all those needs are met, then just breathe. It makes it so much better. Just breathe few deep breaths.

Amy McDuffie 1:00:45

Yep, yep.

Hannah Choi 1:00:48

All right. Lessons for life. Just breathe, just breathe.

Vin Kachuik 1:00:53

It's literally a function of living.

Hannah Choi 1:00:57

Oh, my God, that was so funny when you said that last night. All right. Let's see. Here's, I think this is our last question. All right, my 19 year old son told me he's terrified about trying his hardest only to still fail. In the end. What are we just talking about? It breaks my heart. How do you address issues around motivation that are derived from fear of failure? Yeah. Perfect question to end with.

Vin Kachuik 1:01:21

Absolutely, yeah. That the way that you combat fear of failure is again, it's that "have to, not get to" that's where the fear of failure comes from. It's from the distance between where you feel you are and the expectations that are set above you. That's where things like shame and doubt just reign supreme, and can get the better of you. So a couple of things to do with that is seeing it less as the end result is the expectation and the doing is more the expectation, finding the value, and the joy in the doing the "Hey, I'm learning how to do this". Again, it comes back to starting small though, you know, do it with low stakes things, if it's a high stakes things thing, like a final paper or a big game or something like that, where it's all on the line. No, that's that's too much. It's very overwhelming. But I think giving like little like bits of like autonomy or responsibility to allow someone an opportunity to fail, and get comfortable failing, and learning from that failure in a low stakes environment. Things like, okay, so you know, you're going to be in charge at here's, here's a house plant, you now have a house plant, here's a living thing that's going to depend on you, here's some instructions for what it needs and how to take care of it. Don't let it try not to let it die, you know, kind of thing. And it's like, you know, find and take the opportunity to find joy and relaxation in doing that task. You know, given the opportunity, like here research, some some, you know, here's some resources on some plant blogs of people who have, you know, what they like to use and what they like to do. You know, I always one of my favorite things that I like learning about new clients is I always try and get at the heart of like, what do you geek? What's the thing that like you geek about and obsess over? Because finding that there's no fear of failure in that? Yeah, they love it too much to fear failure. And so I try and like bring that sense of, like, whether it's joy and or obsession, sometimes there's a fine line between those two things. I try and bring that into other tasks that we're focusing on and be like, how would you approach this? If it was, you know, this video game you love? Or you know, if it was this sport, you play? Or you know, this? I don't know. Kpop band that you're obsessed with? Right? Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and like, you know, because they don't, they don't have any sense of fear or worry over those things. Because they already feel like they're experts at it. Yeah. But it's because it's low stakes, nobody else has seen the expectations of them being perfect.

Hannah Choi 1:04:12

Yeah, that's great.

Amy McDuffie 1:04:14

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so important. And I, there's so much to be learned by failure. And I think, you know, like, as a parent, I feel like it's part of my job to to model for my kids that, you know, we all fail, you know, at times, you know, we all make mistakes. And, you know, it's like you said, it's not about, you know, the end result always it's the process of what you've learned along the way. And so I just do think it's really important to model that, you know, this is, you know, you know, it's part of life that that we run into, you know, struggles and, and failure at times. I remember when my kids were when my son was really young. I I read a book, I believe it was called The Gift of Failure. I can't remember the author's name. But it was really wonderful for me to read. And just to kind of look at failure from that perspective, because, you know, of course, we all want our kids to succeed and do well. But there is so much to be learned along the way with that struggle.

Vin Kachuik 1:05:18

The road to success is paved with bricks of failure, something something like that. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 1:05:24

Was it the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown?

Amy McDuffie 1:05:27

No, it was not Brene. Brown.

Hannah Choi 1:05:29

Okay. Yeah, that's a good one, too. Something that I, that I really find helpful with failure is getting away from that black and white thinking of either success or failure, and how there's, there are so many layers to it, and so many, you might ultimately have failed, but maybe there's some kind of like, win along the way.

Vin Kachuik 1:05:51

Like you said, Any modeling for people, I think that's an important thing to acknowledge, too. I know personally, like when I was growing up, big time perfectionist, I would collapse and crumble at even the slightest hint of failure or criticism, and it made it so hard to learn and grow. And the really, I think, something that I personally had to do a lot of work for, was accepting that sense of like vulnerability, that feeling of discomfort, that feeling of it's okay to not meet these expectations, it's okay to not be perfect. And the thing that comes with that is you can be so much happier there. It's hard cultivating a lot of that inner strength. And I'm getting a little bit into, like therapeutic mindfulness, kind of talk here. But it, it's, it's ultimately so much better. I think it is that. I think that's the crux of the, what is it? Failure is, the the, or

Hannah Choi 1:06:53

Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vin Kachuik 1:06:57

That's really what it is. Because that's where you find that sense of like, I'm happy with what I did. Right? Yeah, I'm okay, I am comfortable. And setting those expectations for yourself, obviously, you want to keep learning and growing. But acknowledging what you did along the ways, is a key part of doing that.

Hannah Choi 1:07:18

And it is so hard to break those negative narratives that we talked about last night and today, and especially like kids who have some kind of diagnosis like ADHD, like they're getting way more corrective messages growing up than then kids without, you know, any any kind of diagnosis. And, and so not only are they dealing with, you know, the way that they feel they're also dealing with how other people are expressing their feelings about them, too, which is, which is a lot to carry and can really explain why it is difficult to deal with this perceived failure.

Amy McDuffie 1:07:54

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hannah Choi 1:07:58

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I love talking with you guys. Ifeel like I could talk about it all day. Seriously. Yeah. But I'm sure our listeners have some other stuff they need to go to have to they have to see they have to try to complete those reasonable and realistic tasks for themselves today.

Amy McDuffie 1:08:26

We don't want to be a barrier to them moving forward.

Vin Kachuik 1:08:31

Yeah, we don't. We don't. And we also don't want to give them too much. Quadrant Four indulgence. Yes. Well, this is educational, so I can just listen to this.

Hannah Choi 1:08:41

Instead of doing what I need to do, yeah, yes. But if they've managed what's in quadrant one and quadrant three, well, then they have time. They can move it into Quadrant two!

Vin Kachuik 1:08:52

Or catch up on past podcasts?

Hannah Choi 1:08:54

Yeah. Yeah. Or some sleep.

Vin Kachuik 1:08:58

Yeah. To sleep. Always good. Yep.

Hannah Choi 1:09:01

All right. Have a great day.

Amy McDuffie 1:09:04

Thank you, you too. Thank you both.

Hannah Choi 1:09:08

And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope you learned something about motivation. And if you want to watch the entire webinar, you can find the link to it in the show notes. And I also included some links to some of the graphics that we shared during the webinar. You can find out more about upcoming events by signing up for beyond book smarts monthly newsletter, the monthly think or by checking the Events page on the Resources section of our website. If you know anyone who might want to learn about motivation, you can share this episode with them. And you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I'd love to hear from you. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify You can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Thank you. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when the new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Okay, so today we’re getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday?

To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they’ve faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you’ll hear on this episode.

NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you’ve got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.

Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at [email protected]. Send me your episode topic ideas! I’d love to hear from you.

In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode:

Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:

https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorder

A Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:

https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges

8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:

https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/

ADHD - Workplace Issues:

https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Hannah Choi 00:18

Before I tell you about today's episode, I wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast at beyondbooksmart.com Send me your episode topic ideas. I'd love to hear from you.

Hannah Choi 00:33

Okay, so today we're getting real, not like we haven't been real in the past. Talking about EF challenges is very real. But we're getting extra real today. Recently, our podcast team was having a conversation about how having ADHD impacts people at work. And someone shared that a friend of theirs is a nurse who has ADHD. And she had finally found a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her ADHD and all. We wanted to explore the idea of holding a job where you're constantly giving, giving, giving, and often supporting people with EF challenges. While also managing your own EF challenges. We reached out to a coach of ours Beth Malvino, who works as a coach for two social workers, Lina and Cassie. They joined me and Beth to share their stories about the difficulties they face in managing their own executive dysfunction, while supporting others. They'll provide insights into the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and the work they do to overcome them. You'll hear Beth offer her valuable and rather touching perspective on Lina and Cassie's EF journeys. All three of them share the tools and strategies that Lina and Cassie have found helpful in supporting their executive function challenges. In addition, we explore self care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening today who has EF challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear today.

Hannah Choi 02:29

And just to note that there is some light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happened to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on health care workers, you might want to give them a heads up. Okay, now on to the show.

Hannah Choi 02:46

Hi, y'all. I learned that from Lina. Lina and Cassie and Beth are joining me today to talk about executive function challenges for people who work in healthcare spaces. And Lina is from originally from Texas. And so we were talking about y'all, so I thought I'd try that out today. So, would you guys, would you like to introduce yourselves? Lina, do you want to start?

Lina 03:13

Sure. Um, hi, I'm Lina. As Hannah said, I'm originally from Texas, but I currently live in Chicago. I work in social work on getting my master's in social work with the concentration in mental health. But I have some background in public administration and policy work, particularly within criminal justice spaces, or like to say the criminal system of injustice just because that's what we have right now. And it's, uh, you know, I work within the realm of mental health and people who've been impacted by that system. So yeah, it's really great to be here with all of you. I'm excited to chat.

Hannah Choi 04:01

Thank you, and Cassie.

Cassie 04:05

Hello. My name is Cassie. I am a school social worker slash guidance guidance adjustment counselor. And I don't work at a typical school. I work at a therapeutic day school. So my kiddos have they range our youngest right now is seven. Our oldest is 20. And they range from all kinds of mental health diagnoses trauma backgrounds, emotional behavioral disabilities. So it's funny thinking about kind of our our topic of today is you know, having EF concerns while working in in healthcare but it's like I have EF concerns and I'm surrounded by children who also are very dysfunctional when it comes to EF and also kind of in general. Um, so that was kind of funny to think about that that juxtaposition.

Hannah Choi 05:04

So yeah, and I really want to get into that today because that is you two are not the only people out there who work in that work and also have executive function challenges. So I'm sure that there are other people who will hear this conversation and be really be able to resonate with or relate to relate with what you have to say. And last, we have Beth, who is, well, Beth, you explain how you know Lina and Cassie, and what your role is in, in the world?

Beth Malvino 05:40

Sure, sure. So hi, I'm Beth. I've been a licensed clinical social worker for more than 20 years, I have worked in lots of different healthcare settings, mostly hospitals, with different populations of people. I've been in psychiatry, medicine, hospice oncology, I had my own private practice for a while, I ran virtual support groups for grief and divorce during the pandemic. And now I am an executive function coach at Beyond BookSmart. I currently work with Lina and Cassie, they've been my clients for some time now. And so I'm really going to enjoy talking to them today, because they've had such an amazing journey. So I'm looking forward to sharing that and hearing their perspectives from that.

Hannah Choi 06:32

Yeah, great. I can't wait to hear this too. And Lina, and Cassie, why did you seek out executive function coaching?

Lina 06:43

Yeah, so I sought out executive function coaching, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in 2021. So it was like a year after the pandemic had started. And I didn't start coaching until last year 2022, like I had waited a while. Just because you know, when you're an adult, and you get diagnosed with something that you've had your whole life and things didn't make sense. And you finally got that, I like to think of it as like the lens that you can see through your life and look at all the pieces that didn't fit together. And now you have this lens of information, that you could see more clearly, all of the challenges and triumphs and really weird stuff in your life. It, you know, it can take a while to kind of like, figure out what you need and unmask yourself. And so I started coaching last year, because I really, you know, I read all the books about ADHD and what it's like, but to put things into practice is what really was hard for me identifying how my brain worked and trying out different things, I didn't even know where to start to do that. And so that's why I sought out coaching just because, you know, putting, like, you can rationally in your head know, all these things, you know, read all the books, but it's a whole other thing to put what you've learned into practice. And that's why I sought out coaching. And it's, you know, greatly improved my mental health to even though it's not a mental health service. You know, it's, you know, just being able to put things in practice and learn more and get more information has improved my anxiety a lot just because I know I have different tools and different strategies than I did before. And so yeah, it's it's worked in conjunction with therapy already. That has improved a lot of things in my life and has helped make my work. You know, both in and out of school and in and out of social work a lot better for me.

Cassie 09:10

So I went, I think I think we started in winter, like December 2021. I think, recently, I'm like, Oh, well, I have a different insurance. Like, let's see if there is a psychiatrist nearby that can like assess me and like, take over my meds and whatnot. So I'm actually hopefully going to be starting that soon. Which would be great. Because there's a number of things, not just the attention and focus and whatnot. But there's other things that I'm like, Oh, I think I want somebody who knows stuff about this to help me figure things out. And that's kind of the same thinking that got me here as well. I sought out coaching because I was miserable. I was As I felt like I was drowning in work. And I couldn't kind of wrap my head around it because I have always been a smart kid, I've never had to work too hard at school. And even like college was mostly fine grad school was mostly fine. But when I started my first big girl salary job with my MSW, I couldn't manage it. Like I knew how to do the tasks that I was supposed to do. That's, that wasn't the issue, the issue was actually just getting them done, starting them and finishing them. So I was always behind on things, I was staying really late at work. I had already gone to my supervisor who is amazing. And she, you know, had given me some suggestions for what works for her and, you know, tried to get me a new planner, and we're like, move my schedule around to see if that helped. And so it's probably been a good more than six months that I'd been like, really aware of the fact that I was just very unhappy at work. And then I finally was like, a kind of, I had to bite the bullet because again, like, I'm used to just coasting through things. I'm used to just being successful with not a lot of effort. And to be like, Okay, no, like, I need help. I'm struggling really, really bad. It got to the point where I was like waking up in the morning and hoping that I would get a text message that say that there was an actual gas leak on campus. And so I didn't have to go in like, because I worked at a residential campus. And so there were no, like, there were no days off. Like it was Monday through Friday, no matter what, no matter if there was a blizzard, no matter if it was a national holiday, like we, we went in. So yeah, so I was I was very, very unhappy and was like, alright, like, it's not, it's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's just actually getting my work done. It's not not not knowing how to do it, it's being able to make it happen. So that's why Yeah, and Lina, you said that it's not a it's not a mental health service. But like, honestly, right now, I feel like I have three different therapists in some way, because I have my actual individual therapist that I speak with, like once or twice a month. And then I have my supervisor at work, who is amazing, and supportive and wonderful. And then I also have Beth, and it's like, it's Yeah, I feel like having all of these supports in my quarter has been like, really, really helpful.

Lina 12:36

So yeah, I, I want to affirm that, like, I know, you know, they're supposed to be different difference between coaching and therapy. But there have been several times where Beth and I and I'm sure it's the same way for you Cassie word, the coaching session does kind of turn into

Cassie 12:54

Oh, yeah. Therapy. For five sessions, I was just like, crying to her. Like, I don't know why I do this. I'm Yeah. This is hard to like, why is it so hard to just type words into my computer,

Lina 13:12

Or even like, when the big feelings show up, because you have some big feelings about something and you're just crying about it, you're just like, I don't know how to emotionally regulate.

Hannah Choi 13:22

It shows you how closely connected our emotions are with our executive functions, and how it is you cannot separate them. And, and so it's really great that you're that you're working with a therapist as well, because then you're able to take things that you learn in each and, and bring them together. And it was also recommend that to my clients, who aren't seeing therapists already.

Cassie 13:50

It was also really important to me as I was in the process of like, signing up that like, you know, I am, I am a, an MSW, I, you know, I have my license, I like I want to work with somebody who has similar training, because like, I feel like, you know, I kind of like I've seen behind the curtain, like, I know, like, you know, I'm aware of the different theories and whatever and, and, like, I wanted to work with somebody else who also had that same background.

Beth Malvino 14:23

I have to say that, I think, and I was thinking about this last night when I was sort of preparing for this podcast today, you know, what, what has been really important in in the coaching relationship with with both of you, and I think there's been an element of relatability that I maybe didn't realize how important that was until we all started working together. Because I'm a social worker. I mean, there's there's that capacity to understand even though we We've all done different things like I've never done any of the types of roles that you both are in. But yet I can still empathize because I know what it's like to have to chart, you know, 50 notes in a week and have to, you know, feel to feel like there's 1000 emails that haven't been responded to, and just the whole concept of giving so much of yourself, because that's what we do, you know, we're helpers, we're healers, and feeling as if there's just nothing left, at the end of the day. And when you throw in things like executive font dysfunction and time distortion on top of that, it's just I can only imagine how difficult that must be. Because I know that I have felt that way, in lots of work settings, and I don't have executive dysfunction. And so I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. So I think there's definitely the the idea of being empathetic to that I think, has really helped us to bond as coach and client. And that's been an important part of the process.

Hannah Choi 16:12

Can we explore that a little, the idea of what you just said about how you have to give yourself all day to people who really, really, really need you. And also, you're giving yourself as a person who is struggling with executive function. And you're likely supporting someone who is also struggling with exec executive function. So how do you like what does that look like? For you? What is? What is? Is that a struggle? And when what does it look like?

Cassie 16:47

For me, it looks like being transparent, to some degree with my students, there have been so many times where, because in my role, I go into our classrooms, and I lead like group counseling. So we right now we're working on the zones of regulation. But what it looks like, sometimes for me is, like, kind of being explicit, and like, oh, like, that's a really good question, kiddo. But like, I you note, you know, that I want to hang out and chat with you about anything under the sun, but like, right now, I need to focus on finishing this lesson. Or like a kiddo will ask them like, Hey, Miss, can you know, can you come check in with me later? Or can we work on this thing? And like just being very explicit, like, Yes, I will try to remember or I will write it down. But like, like, just kind of like being honest about like, I this is important, and I want to do it, but like, if an emergency comes up, or if whatever, you know, it may not happen, and asking the kids like, hey, help me remember that next time we have group I want to do XYZ? Or, if you see me in the hallway, ask me about this, and then I can let you know when I find out the answer. So it's kind of in some ways, it's it's being honest, and kind of modeling for the kids. And then and then it's also working with my colleagues. Kind of in a more intentional way, also, one of the big benefits that I've noticed and started coaching is just the change in my kind of thinking patterns or my habits. Right now, I am very lucky that I have an awesome clinical intern who is working on her MSW as well. And so oftentimes, what we'll do is, she'll get there in the morning, and I'll be you know, answering emails or whatever. And we'll kind of sit down and like have like a kind of a planning session. We're like, Alright, so today for group, we're going to work on this thing. I don't think Anthony class has finished their worksheet, so we'll finish that up for them. But Dubois class, they didn't finish. So we're gonna move on to this one, we were kind of just like, make a plan for the day. And then we also were like, Alright, so after groups, like what's our priority, like, we really need to finish this assessment, we really need to finish planning for the next two groups. Like it's been really helpful for me to have that conversation with somebody else. until like, right, these are our priorities for the day. That's been something that's been really helpful for me because it's, you know, I can have that conversation with myself in my head, but it's just it there's no external accountability, which was another thing that I really gained benefit from. So it's, what it looks like is modeling it for the kids and then practicing myself, even when I'm not with the kids.

Hannah Choi 19:42

That's awesome. And then building in the accountability of having a partner and advocating for yourself that you need that partner and that you you know this like that. building that relationship with her I'm sure is invaluable for both of you. Yeah, what about you, Lina?

Lina 20:00

Um, so there's a few components for how I deal with it in my work. So right now I am working in substance use just to give some background, I work with adults in the west side of Chicago, who, you know, for various reasons, have used substances to cope with their life and their realities and their pain. And, you know, when I work with a bunch of people like this, especially people who are, you know, mandated to treatment by the justice system, or the criminal system of injustice, system, I, you know, struggle a lot with and just not even that, you know, I don't know how many people are aware of how recovery spaces are, but they're pretty rigid, you know, if you're in recovery homes, there's very, like I work with a lot of patients who are in recovery homes, and the rigidity of certain recovery homes just gives no flexibility for a client to have autonomy in their life and in their treatment, and in their program. And I take a harm reduction approach, where, you know, we look at recovery, and look at how do we manage reducing unnecessary harm without trying to eradicate the issue? Right? Because we know it's going to exist, we know it's going to, you know, it has existed for centuries, you know, people have been using substances for centuries, but how do we reduce unnecessary harm that can come from doing that. And what that also means is defining recovery, and however, the individual defines it, right. And sometimes, if a person comes in with a very rigid idea of what recovery can be, and trying to fit themselves into a box, that doesn't necessarily work for them. I resonate with that, because I tried to do that, my whole life, right, with having undiagnosed ADHD, I was just coping all the time and trying to fit myself into boxes that didn't necessarily fit for me, but I was working so hard. And so yeah, I was just working so hard for so long, in spaces that were never meant to fit me. Right. And so a lot of what I've done with clients, and with patients is just like a lot of validation of being like, yeah, this it's hard. There's no rulebook to how life could be. But we have all these expectations within these systems that we're in to meet, unfortunately, and I'm a very systems based person, I always have been, because I've always noticed, that's like one of my ADHD superpowers, I would say is, I've always noticed how systems really suck. And they don't allow people to have choice and autonomy, to do things that is actually better for them, you know what I mean? And so that's how I see it a lot with my clients and with my patients. And even for me, I have to, you know, I'm still in graduate school, I have all these expectations to meet for school, I have all these expectations to meet within my clinical internship, which is doing the substance use work. And one of the things that Beth and I did was, we broke down all the things that I had to do, like we literally wrote it out, being like, you have to do, CSRS T PRs, individual sessions, group therapy sessions, individual notes, group notes, case management, notes, housing notes, all these things. And when you really break it down, it's like, all these expectations, and for what, right? And for what, it's just so exhausting. And so I, you know, I even started doing that with my patients being like, alright, let's look at your recovery program and being like, look at all these expectations, and you're exhausted, like, there are hard things that add to your life, and there's hard things that don't. And then there's hard things that are a little bit of both, and how do we recognize those things that do add to our life? And try to minimize the things that don't and start making things that work better for you. So it's, yeah, I do it, you know, a lot of validation at my work and my job, especially with the clients who were within the criminal system of injustice, because those expectations are just out of pocket. I'm just like, Why does this have to exist this way, especially for this person that already has so many different systems working against them. And in a lot of ways, we as people with executive functioning challenges, work within systems that are working against us too. And that's really challenging and really hard. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 24:56

And something that I do I just this talk about systems is so interesting because as a person who has executive function challenges, I mean, all people need to build systems for themselves that they can rely on. And when you are a person with executive function challenges, your system is probably going to look really different, and not fit in well, to the existing systems that are already there, which I think is pretty much what you were just saying Lina. And, and it's, I don't know, it's just interesting that, that, that systems can be critical for success. And they can be really limiting when there is no flexibility. And there's no consideration for the variety of needs, that that people have. And that's what's so beautiful about taking the time and, and, and taking the time. That's what's so beautiful about discovering the aspects of yourselves that are strong, and that you can rely on, and how you can use those to support the areas that are that are more challenging for you, and how you're taking, taking the time to really think about it and to really say like, what do I need? And how can I create that for myself. And when you are spending your whole day, supporting other people and giving and giving and giving and giving? It's probably pretty difficult to stop and just really wait, why do I need? And how do I support myself in this time? So do you what do you do for yourself to recover from a really difficult day or manage executive function? I mean, other than, like what you shared already, like is there maybe self care that you do to, you know, to alleviate some of that pressure that I'm sure that you feel, trying to fit into these systems that that are there.

Cassie 27:15

Something that I have been doing, that my whole family has been doing, ever since the pandemic started. My, my mom, my dad, and my older sister, and I, just the four of us in my immediate nuclear family. We have weekly family video calls. And that actually evolved from way back when the pandemic very first started, my sister reached out to us and was like, I'm really worried about the state of the world can we just do a video call just to check in with each other. And then we really enjoyed it. So we did again, the next night, and the next night, and the next night. So we we I talked to my parents and my sister every single day for, I don't know, four or five months of the pandemic. And then, you know, once I finished grad school, and once I moved out here for my first big girl salary job, we did cut it down to twice a week. And now we're down to once a week. But because we had that kind of foundation of updating each other on every part of our days, because we talked every single day, we just have a much, I think a much stronger relationship and much more open and comfortable relationship just has a whole family unit. And so we talk about a lot of things like we are much more open about our mental health, about our needs. You know, sometimes my sister will talk about how she, you know, I'm feeling really down today, like my depression is pretty bad. Or, you know, we'll joke with mom about how like mom, like, you have undiagnosed ADHD, even though it's sometimes in a joking way, we're much more open about our own struggles and mental health needs and everything. And I think that's been instrumental. For me, I think it's been really, really helpful, just personally, but I also think that it's improved all of our lives just to have that regular communication and that comfort. So for me, family is a really big part of my self care. I know that that's not the case for everyone. For other for some people, like family creates stress, and that's totally valid. But for me, family time has been a really big part of my self care.

Hannah Choi 29:33

And hopefully for people that sort of their chosen family can step in, and Lina What about you? What do you do to take care of yourself?

29:40

Man, we're trying to figure that out to be honest. One of the things that my ADHD loves to do is not let me recognize certain bodily cues like eating because I get so hyper focused during the day am my work that I forget to eat, I legitimately don't get those cues to eat. And then it isn't until like three, maybe sometimes two o'clock to three in the afternoon and I'm like, why can't I focus? Oh, you haven't eaten since seven this morning. Like, like I like, it's those things that, you know, really begin to challenge. So lately, self care has been trying to eat more. And just trying to, you know, find certain foods or certain things that I will eat during the day or have access to or that is easier to manage and sort of time myself. That's been hounding me to set an alarm for lunch. And so yeah, like, that's sort of what comes to mind immediately. But, you know, I think for me, too, lately, I've been recognizing how I can't just push through certain tedious tasks anymore. Like I have to, like, in order for me to do the really hard thing that my brain really don't want to do, I got to do something fun before I do it, you know, so I gotta like, read a chapter of the book that I'm reading, or watch a stupid YouTube video or, you know, do something that I actually like doing before I get into this thing, or use the thing that I really like doing as the reward for doing the really hard thing. So I been trying to give myself space to have more fun. And to have more rest and play, and silliness and laughter and being with people that, you know, make me laugh and understand my humor, because as social workers, we got to very wild spectrums of humor. When you're with people who get that humor, it is the best, it's like wild, you would think work notes or need to go be hospitalized or something. But it's like really a good time being with the people that get it and understand the type of work that we're dealing with all day, every day, because it gets really hard. Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that our jobs are easy, because they're not. And it's very, you know, we're in a profession that is severely undervalued. So we have to be very intentional about taking care of ourselves to deal with said systems. And I'm trying to be a lot better about that I will work working on it. It's always a work in progress, but it's a lot better than what it used to be.

Hannah Choi 32:49

So we're all work in progress, it works in progress. I just, I just had a wonderful experience. On the other night, I got to go to a presentation by a clinical psychologists called Dr. Allison Roy, and she's out in New Hampshire. And she she works she works in with from a perspective of trauma informed care. And she did a presentation on the brain which I'm a total nerd about so I was just like on the edge of my seat the whole night. And she talked about about how we can get out of our the fear center part of our brain like the you know, like the the fight and flight and freeze part and up into our prefrontal cortex where all of our executive function skills are so our thinking brain so we can use that. And she was talking about how this idea of flocking and how flocking is when you you have a flock you have you spend time with people who get you who understand you, you have social connection and and when you do that you're able to nourish the and support your limbic system the emotional part of your brain which really allows you to access your your prefrontal cortex and your thinking part. And she was just talking about there is so much value in finding a flock and so whatever your flock is, like you said, Cassie, your family is your flock and you get so much value from that and Lina, your you know, your fellow social workers who really get you and get where you're coming from. And so I'm just so glad to hear that you both put that in as an value that as part of your self care because according to the brain research, it's really what you do need to do so. And the other thing that she talked about Lina and I'm so glad you mentioned this was the idea of play. And she said it is so important. Why do we stop playing why do we stop having fun and, and and play is a huge component of As our mental health and of just feeling better about ourselves and, and enjoying our lives, and in staying out of that, like the the kind of like, primal part of our brain, and we're able to stay up higher in the in the thinking part. And so it's just glad to hear that you're too you're doing that too.

Beth Malvino 35:22

I wanted to just piggyback on what what you just said, because it really resonated with me that, you know, we get so what, regardless of whether or not you have any kind of diagnosable executive function challenges, I think we all get bogged down with things that we think we have to plan, you know, we have work and or, you know, parenting responsibilities or things that we have to do in life that we feel like we have to plan these things. And I think for a lot of us, we forget to plan fun. And sort of bringing that to the to the conscious and really, scheduling fun, I think is so important. And I talk about that a lot with with clients, because I find that they get very wrapped up as we all do and the things that they have to do, and not necessarily the things that they like to do.

Hannah Choi 36:25

Yeah, and I just I did that a few years ago to it all started where I, my sister in law wanted to go in the water and it was so cold. And I was like I don't want to go in the water is too cold. And she's like, come on just fun. Like, yeah, I need to have more fun. So I decided to try to be a lot more intentional about that. And I and I have noticed a big difference. My kids think I'm crazy. But grownups should not be having that much fun. But I think it really helps. That's a big part of my self care.

36:57

So I I mean, Lina and I talked about our self care. But I want to hear about from from you and Beth as well.

Hannah Choi 37:05

That's you want to go first? Oh, wow.

Beth Malvino 37:08

Self. Yeah, I mean, self care, is something that does have to be intentional for me, I have to remember to do it. Because just, you know, like everyone else, I have things that I have to do. And I try to get those things done. And there are days that go by where I haven't done any self like true self care. And I kind of get mad at myself, like, why didn't I you know, take a moment. And so I do try to be more intentional about the kind of self care that I do. So, recently, we took a trip to Florida, and that we were in Orlando, and they have these electric scooters that you can just kind of, you know, zip around town on and I've never done anything like that. And my kids who are you know, they're teenagers. And so there used to scootering around on different types of machinery. They were all just like jumping on and whizzing down the block. And I was almost like, oh, that I can't do that. Like that's not for me. That's that's not like, that's not okay, why why would I do that I'm not a kid. And then I kind of, I kind of forced myself to do it. The best? Yeah, I had the wind in my hair. And I was flying down the sidewalk and like ringing the bell. And people were stuck on the side. And I felt like a kid again. And that was a very intentional choice that I made to do that. And I'm glad I did it. Now I have those memories too. And now maybe I'm more likely to try that again in a different settings. So I really do try to try to make it an intent, like an intentional decision. Like today, I'm going to do something it doesn't even have to be big enough to be going to a spa like I'm not going to do. But it might be it's a really beautiful day. I'm going for a walk today. I'm just going to make sure that I get some sunshine in today. And I do try to make that intentional kind of schedule that around the other things that I had to plan for that day.

Hannah Choi 39:30

Yeah, that what I do for myself, though, sort of like main Self Care Act is similar in that I, I practice the strategies that I that I know work for me when I'm in a moment where I'm really having a hard time. So like I have some anxiety so I I make myself practice breathing when I'm not in an anxious state. So that when I am in that state, it's much easier for me to access that and I also Have, I'm working really hard on my negative self talk and, and so I try very hard to talk positively to myself when I'm just doing regular stuff. Like, like celebrating these like super small wins, it doesn't have to be anything big, but just practicing that, that more supportive talk to myself really helps so that when I have made a decision that I'm not happy with or something happens, that didn't go as I expected, it does come a little bit more easily to me to say something nice to myself instead of saying something mean. So that's the practice of it when I don't need it is is a huge thing for me. And then also, spending time with other people is absolutely number like probably like other than the practice, that's the most important thing for me. And exercise to I need to exercise if I don't exercise I always like why do I feel like crap this week? Oh, because I did not prioritize that. So yeah. Thank you for asking Cassie. It's a it's a it's a conversation that more people should have. Because in, I think because in having those conversations, you can really learn a lot from what other people do for their self care. And it doesn't always look like going and getting a massage. Like if I go get a massage, I feel guilty that I went and got a massage. And so now I don't feel good at all. It's yeah, it doesn't always look like bubble baths or whatever. So yeah.

41:27

Yeah, like I just wanted to piggyback off of that is just like, lately, I've been trying to intentionally remember that I can do things because I can like, and not because I have to justify it. Like, that's been really, you know, I've always felt like I've had to justify everything I do, like justify a feeling or justify needing to do this or just doing that. And I'm just like, No, I can go get an ice cream cake. Because I can I'm an adult, I could make that decision if I wanted to. Like if I want to, and I don't need to justify it, if I want a massage, I don't need to justify getting a massage. If I want to do this, I don't have to, I could do it because I can and not because I have to justify it. So I've been trying really hard to do that more often. And like, you know, if I want to make a nice meal for myself, I can do that and not feel like oh, you have to do it. Because you have to have a reason like, No, I don't have to have a reason all the time to do the thing I want to do

Hannah Choi 42:31

just giving yourself permission to just do it.

Beth Malvino 42:35

Because you deserve it. Yeah. And that's part of

42:40

that's another hard part to get your wrap your head around. Because, you know, when you're diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, you know, you were invalidated a lot as a child for things that, you know, you needed. But, you know, by, you know, oh, you're just too sensitive, or Oh, you're just too much or, or you're just this or just that and like, you know, going through this process of like, No, you do deserve good things you do deserve the things you need to play, it gets okay to have your needs met. That's, that's been a big part of this whole journey, I would say,

Beth Malvino 43:17

Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think when you're diagnosed, as an adult, it kind of brings another layer of challenges. Because you have, you have to fight some negative narratives. And Hannah, you were just talking about, you know, the negative talk that goes through your head, you have to fight that, you know, sometimes you have to fight years of that, whether it was heard, you know, from other people, or whether it's things that you're saying to yourself. That's, that's really hard, it's hard to change habits, when what's going on in your head is still, you know, that negative loop of I can't or I'm not good enough, or I don't deserve or I'm broken. And so, you know, we talked about coaching versus therapy, sometimes there is that overlap of you know, how do I how do I get past? How do I change that negative loop in my head so that I can, you know, work with the brain that I have and Cassie we weave cast came up with one of the best I don't know if it's a metaphor, or just the best Phrases She came up with one of one of the best phrases and I still use it today with with all my clients is your, you know, part of coaching is rewriting the manual for your brain. And that act just really spoke to me when when she said that and I i still repeat it all the time because it's so true. It's not about fixing what's wrong. It's about working with But you have Yes. And so I think that, you know, it takes an awful lot of courage to ask for help. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I really give a lot of credit to both Lina and Cassie for reaching out, because it's not easy. And we're, you know, they're both extremely emotionally intelligent women who, you know who work in the field, I think it's, I think that in some ways makes it harder, you know, people in social work, and maybe even in healthcare in general, we're there to help other people, and we're good at it, and maybe not so good at kind of looking back at ourselves or looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, Well, what do I need help with. So I just want to acknowledge that it really takes an awful lot of courage to do what they've done, and to be on this journey, and to have to have been open to this journey, which both of them really are.

Lina 46:07

Yeah, I want to say something, too you know, because within the realm of, I don't know how many people know how the intricacies of healthcare works. But, you know, there's this thing called evidence-based practice. And sometimes evidence-based practice can be at odds with us people with executive functioning challenges, because a lot of times the evidence that they're basing their stuff off of doesn't include people like us in the research. So I have a hard time navigating, especially in mental health spaces, that rely on evidence based practices. But we're working with populations that were never included in the research for, you know, and I, as a person with ADHD, and you have challenges working with a lot of people with ADHD and you have challenges that have either gone overlooked, undiagnosed or invalidated. I'm struggle a lot, by even my own peers within the social work and mental health field, because not only do we have to navigate the challenges of working with our patients, but we also have to navigate the challenges of working with peers that don't see that. And just because our approach is different, doesn't mean that it's wrong. And just because it's, yeah, and just because it's, you know, you may not understand it doesn't mean that we are wrong in approaching our work differently in that way. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of complexities with that,

Hannah Choi 47:55

and you're doing all of that navigating, while managing your executive function challenges. You're not doing that in this vacuum, where you know, where you're just like, skipping around, remembering everything, and not finding anything stressful. So it's, it's a lot, and I commend you, all, all three of you for you know, the work that you've done and continue to do. And it's, it's, I'm just so glad that you are here today and talking about this. And, and, and I really hope that lots of people hear this and are able to really relate and hopefully feel validated, that validation is huge. And it's, it's, it's a right, Lina, I can imagine that maybe if you if someone validated your perspective, and validated where you're coming from, it would probably feel a lot better than

Lina 48:57

I probably would have gotten diagnosed as a kid instead of an adult. You know, yeah, I probably would have been heard. You know. So there's, you know, there's a lot of challenges and complexities within that. And I don't want to sound like a Negative Nelly, because I do think evidence based practices has its times in place, but, you know, that's where the creativity of meeting patients and clients where they're at, and truly validating their experiences in their life and having that relational approach rather than just purely scientific, purely medical, purely. Whatever bullshit they like to throw up.

Hannah Choi 49:48

The systems that that exist, exist, partially because there's not enough funding, and there's not enough people and there's not enough attention. There's not enough support. There's not had enough research, there's not enough validation of the troubles that there are out there. And so it is difficult to provide individual support when you are not supported yourself by

Lina 50:13

Oh, yeah. And that's,

Hannah Choi 50:15

I know we could talk about that for days.

Lina 50:17

Yeah, as a systems based person, you know, we have the resources to do those things, we just choose as a system not to do it. You know, and that's, you know, I know, I say, I'm in social work, but my first master's was in public administration, and, you know, we have a bunch of the resources to do it, it's just we, politically and power wise choose not to, and that's really, and we're working within that system all the time. I'm sure Cassie see's just how, you know, funding schools and funding children's programs affects her and her job and what she's limited and doing. And I know, I struggle a lot with I work with a lot of people who are on Medicaid, you know, like, it's, and that's, that's severely limiting to what they need, and they have a lot of my needs. So it's, you know, it's a system thing too, and we have to constantly navigate those complexities.

Hannah Choi 51:13

Yeah, that's a lot. And the people that you work with, I'm sure are so grateful that you have made the choice in your life to do the work that you're doing. And, and that you I'm sure your your work has been so positively impacted by that effort that you have put in, to reach out for help for yourself, and to do the work that you've been doing and will continue to do to support yourself, which just improves the support that you're able to give the people that you work with. So let's explore that a bit. I would love to hear from you, Beth, about your experience working with Cassie and Lina,

Beth Malvino 51:53

I feel so honored to have been part of Cassie and Lina's journey journeys. And just to me, they're they're huge executive function success stories. They blow me away with how they manage and navigate their lives, their work. And I wanted them to shine. And so I'm glad that I'm here to kind of hear to hear them talk about these things. Because it also validates the fact that they they've done so much work. I mean, I love talking about people's journey, especially when they when they come to the end. And this is by no means the end of a journey, not like they're still on the journey. But just having beared witness to it has been really, really wonderful for me, and I I just, I'm so glad that I could be here to, to hear them to, you know, to talk about it. And I don't know if it's okay with them, I'd love to share some of the things that I've seen just in terms of their coaching journey. Oh my goodness, I mean when I first started working with Cassie, I'll just start there. She She was really struggling, she was emotionally spent. She doesn't didn't understand why she why she was leaving late every day she couldn't plan or prioritize. I think structuring her unstructured time was one of the biggest hurdles she she was experiencing there was a lot of procrastination

Cassie 53:57

My own brain would distract me, I'd be in the middle of a task of like, oh, I wanted to do this other thing. And then I would do that other thing, and then not finish the original task.

Beth Malvino 54:06

So there was a lot of that going on. Transitions were also really hard and just getting distracted, doing one thing and being distracted by another. Even just simple things. And you know, this goes back to what Lina was saying about remembering to eat lunch, just basic needs, sleep, food, hygiene, you know, those kinds of things. I think sometimes people forget that without that your executive functioning kind of falls apart. And so you have to kind of go back to basics and say, you know, what do I need right now Why am I feeling this way? Could it be because you haven't had lunch or you didn't sleep well or you stayed up on your phone till three in the morning? Just Doom scrolling, you know, is there. There's there are reasons that these things happen. So It just in terms of Cassie's journey, you know, I've watched I watched her go from sort of this almost despondent person who was really not happy in her role in her life and felt just things were very much out of her control. And then she kind of shifted, she changed jobs. And that shift made a huge difference for her in everything, her demeanor her affect her mood, I mean, it was such a big change, because I saw her finally doing something that she really truly loved. And from that came so many other amazing changes for her. She she was, for a while she had been using a thought collector, you remember the thought collector. So the thought collector was like a is basically a notebook and just a sort of list, a running list of things that she had to write stream of conscious

Cassie 56:09

or even consciousness, it could because like I said, when I would be like, Alright, I need to write this note, I need to summarize a 45 minute individual therapy session, go. But then as I was having like, oh, yeah, my kiddo asked me to reach out to her mom, or my, you know, I have to send this email. And so in the middle of this hard job that I didn't want to do, I would remember a quicker, easier job. And then I was like, Oh, let me just do that real quick. And then I would get distracted by looking for a worksheet related to this topic. And then I would get, so my thought collector was kind of like a brain dump of like, okay, I know, this is important. I don't want to forget it. I'm gonna write it down. And then I'm gonna keep doing I don't want to do.

Hannah Choi 56:45

Yeah, that's great.

Beth Malvino 56:47

And a lot of that. I remember even during the early sessions that we had, it was kind of almost reactive, you would look at the thought collector and say, Okay, what, what have I not done, that I should have done this week. And let me get that done first. And so it was very sort of reactive in that in nature. Like, let me let me finish what I haven't done that needs to get done. And then after a while, things kind of shifted where you were, you could take a more proactive stance, and begin to plan ahead and begin to prioritize. So instead of looking back at what you hadn't done, you were able to look forward and look at the thought collector and say, What do I need to do? Going forward? What do I need to do this week? That was a big shift, the way you document and your notes even changed. And it was not a big change. But there was something that you had tweaked, that made it easier to document for yourself. It was the way that you were copying and pasting. Yes, some of your notes and just a small change, like that made a huge difference. Yes.

Cassie 57:53

Micro optimization. Yes.

Hannah Choi 57:56

Yeah. And I think that people don't recognize the, the, how that huge, that tiny, tiny, tiny little change can have such a huge impact. It's like, have you guys read Atomic Habits by James clear, he talks a lot about how like, if you just make like 1%, like a boat, if there's a ship, and it's going in this one direction, it makes a 1% change turn or one degree turn, I mean, then it's actually going to end up in like a really huge, different place. But if you never make that change, you'll just keep on going straight. And so that giving value to those small changes that can make a really big difference.

Beth Malvino 58:34

Absolutely. Yeah, I think just I've also just been really amazed at Cassie's ability, ability to self-regulate, when she because she works with a population that is really not regulated. And so I asked her all the time, I mean, she gets physically assaulted at work. And then she'll come to session and be like, oh, you know, I got hit today. And it's kind of like, just, it's almost like it's not, it doesn't affect her or she doesn't take it in. And she's still able to, to cope and do the things that she wants to do that day, and it doesn't get under her skin. And I've always been amazed by that. Because self regulation is one of the hardest executive function skills to master and especially if you're working with people who are not, not regulated, that can be a really big challenge. So she just has that amazing ability to do that.

Hannah Choi 59:38

That's great. So tell me all about Lina

Beth Malvino 59:40

and Lina, Oh my gosh. We, Lina says she's a verbal processor. I struggle because our sessions typically go way over and I did and I'm complete Part of that because, you know, I'm because I love talking to her. And because we end up talking about things that you know, are so relatable. And so it's not uncommon for us to go over our time limit. You know, I think, Lina we have, we have spent a lot of time talking about the inner narrative. Lina, I think I said this before that, you know, she was diagnosed as an adult. And so she, she brought with her some of those negative inner loops that tend to go through your head. And so we do spend a lot of time on that, which does bring a therapeutic component to coaching, but we're always able to relate it back to executive functioning. And so, but that that's all part of it, you know, we only have one brain, right, and the the toll that executive dysfunction takes on a person emotionally, has to be acknowledged, it can't be compartmentalized, you can't just talk about my challenges with EF skills, and also talk about the fact that I'm anxious, depressed and sad, they go together. And so there's a lot of overlap. And so we do talk about that a lot. And one of the things that I think she mentioned it, you know, remembering to eat, for example, it's just a basic need, right? We, I think a lot of us just take it for granted, like, Okay, you could skip lunch and feel fine. But when you have executive function, challenges, skipping lunch, could mean not functioning at all later in the day, and maybe not realizing how much of an impact that that has on you. So we do talk about that a lot. And remembering to put those things into her like scheduling fun, like, I need her to schedule lunch. I tell her, it's as important as breathing as if think of it as you know, medication, or insulin or something that you need. It's not just a nice thing to have, like you're not optional, to fulfill yourself and replenish yourself. So we talk about that a lot. And I'm also blown away by Lina 's ability to self-regulate, because she's working with some people who are seriously traumatized, and have, you know, dual diagnosis and a lot, a lot of stuff going on in their lives. And I'm in all of the fact that she is able to give so much of herself. To them, despite having challenges with with some of those same things like self regulation is is very hard, you know, big feelings are hard to navigate. And as a social worker, it's so much easier to navigate that with other people. Yeah. But not with yourself. And so it's, it's what it's a balance. And so we talk about that a lot, just being mindful of how she's feeling. Because it's very easy to distract yourself with how somebody else is feeling. One of the things that Lina has done in coaching, which is just incredible is she has utilized workspace sessions in a very unique way. And for those of you don't know workspace is one of the it's it's kind of, it's a website that Beyond BookSmart runs, where if you have something to do, and it doesn't matter what it is you sign up for a session and you have a person there, who is there to help pull you through it and to monitor how things are going and to be your cheerleader. And to give you some tips. And it sounds kind of simplistic, but it really does work. Having that external accountability of having another person there is very helpful. And so one of the things that Lina has done and I've talked to other clients about this because it's worked so well for her is she was able to literally master task initiate by scheduling sessions very carefully during her week. So on Sunday, she would use a workspace session to tackle chores or get all her cooking done. Can I talk about Mount Lina, is that okay?

Lina 1:04:48

I figured it was gonna come up. Yeah, okay, so we'll talk about Mount Lina. Yeah, you want to tell everyone what that lien is? Mount Lina is this corner of my bedroom. Where am I dresser is and you couldn't see the top of the dresser for months, because it's just a mountain of doom. Like just a mountain of doom lay like that's the best I can describe it just of clothes of random things that somehow made its way to the top of my dresser and I couldn't see my dresser for since I moved into this apartment, which was in 2021, up until earlier this year.

Hannah Choi 1:05:37

Congratulations!

Lina 1:05:39

Yeah. So Workspace helped me tackle Mount Lena. And it only took like, a day. And I was just like, Why? Why am I like this,

Hannah Choi 1:05:48

I had a client who, who had the same, she also had a mountain. And it was a desk at the bottom of her stairs in her living room. And so we did that I just sat with her during an entire session, and she cleaned it off. And she did it. And so that's the idea of body doubling, which, which Beth you didn't name but the body doubling is a super effective strategy for task initiation, especially for people with ADHD. And there's, there's like YouTube, you can go on YouTube, and just search for bodily to ebbeling. And they'll be like someone cleaning your closet out.

Beth Malvino 1:06:23

You know, one of the things with Lina that I've, I've really seen, because a lot of our sessions have been focused on that internet, you know, negative narrative that's been running through her head, is her ability to take risks. And to you know, for example, looking, thinking about relocating and going on job interviews, and just, I mean, it's, it's terrifying to think about moving from one city to another. And that can often be an obstacle to task initiation is fear. And she's really, really pushed past that. And she's, she's doing it,

Lina 1:07:05

you know, it sucks, having to really examine the things around you, and yourself, and your internal narrative to be like, Oh, this is what I've had. And this is what I know. And it's comfortable, but it's not working anymore, and having to do things differently, and having to really be like, No, this is what I really need. And that being at odds which with what you thought you needed. And there's a grief in that there's a sadness in that. And there's a lot of yeah, just because it's good to make these changes doesn't mean that it doesn't feel shitty, while you're doing it. So it's, there's been a lot of that, too

Hannah Choi 1:07:51

And, and it can, it can, I know, like for myself, like it can, making doesn't matter the size of the change, just recognizing like, this, this thing that I've the way that I've been doing, it has not been working, whether it's like, I don't know, I used to keep a grocery list on a piece of paper. And now I use any list. Like just recognizing like this system that I that I've been using for so long. It's actually not that great. And admitting that and not beating yourself up over it and saying, Okay, let me be open to something new, and then trying the new thing. Can really that's difficult work to do whatever the size, whatever the size is.

Lina 1:08:32

Yeah, yeah, like there have been definite things like, I was furious when I discovered that the dictate speech to text tool exists in Microsoft Word this whole time, that could have made my life so much easier if I had just known about it. Now, if I had known that I was a verbal processor, you know, I could have just spoken and wrote all my papers that way. But no, I didn't know that. Or, you know, I am so happy I have a Google Home assistant now because that thing helps me out so much. When it comes to like needing to verbally process I can just say hey, I won't say it now. But I can add this to this list, like when I remember it, and then I have it in my phone because it recorded it like my Costco list or Trader Joe list, my regular grocery list or my Home Depot list or this or that, you know, we're Amazon list like I can just remember. Like, I can just say it, it'll record it and then I don't have to remember it anymore. And I don't have to feel like I you know, because once it's out of the mouth, it just goes poof in the brain. Like it's just gone.

Cassie 1:09:41

Like, like your Google Assistant is like a digital version of my thought collector.

Lina 1:09:46

Yes. Yes.

Cassie 1:09:50

I use my Alexa more often for alarms and time-awareness. Yes, I do that to like, hey, in 30 minutes, remind me to take the stuff out of the washer or I do do that too times so that I can actually go and take the trash out before midnight, you know, that

Lina 1:10:05

Or remind me to put the wash or the laundry that's in the washer and the dryer so that I don't have to rewash it again, because I forgot. Because yeah, like I, I have to tell myself to do that, or, you know, it helps a lot with you know, I sleep with brown noise at night now

Cassie 1:10:24

Me too! Brown noise is better than white noise

Lina 1:10:28

It's so much better. And I it's so much more soothing to me. And so I listen to brown noise and that helps me out a lot. And, you know, I have a hard time waking up in the morning. I am not a morning person, I I've come to accept this fact about myself after years of trying to become a morning person. But what helps me wake up in the morning is turning on lights, like I'm very light sensitive. And so I tell my Google to turn on my bedroom lights at a certain time in the morning, like, Hey, turn on the bedroom lamp at such and such time, like at 6:30. And it'll do that and I'll turn the lights on before I put my alarm so that it's sort of like a wake, go Yeah, like a gradual thing. So it's not as terrible as the way I was waking myself up before getting a really loud alarm clock, putting it in my kitchen. And it it literally sounded like one of those loud school bells, like old 1950s school bells. And it was the worst way to wake up because it was just so abrasive, and it made me get out of bed, which I didn't want to do. And yeah, just like being more gentle with how you do things. Because all the harsh ways that I was doing number four just weren't working.

Beth Malvino 1:11:40

You know, what you're you're both of you are kind of capturing is that it's sort of the essence of what we try to do. And in coaching to in which both of you have really just navigated beautifully is the idea that it's not about trying harder. It's about trying differently. And I know I say that a lot. I still say that to both of you at times. But I say that just in general, that's sort of like a mantra that I have. Because that's really what it's about. It's, you know, the systems and the tools that you were using or didn't have before. You know, it's it's not about just working harder or putting in more efforts. It's about learning new strategies and new tools and finding what works for you and what works for you may not work for someone else. But that's okay. And to kind of become comfortable with that idea that I just need. I just haven't yet figured out what tools work for me. And both of you have worked so hard over the course of your journey in coaching to figure those things out, which has just been phenomenal and so amazing for me to witness.

Hannah Choi 1:12:57

Well, I could literally talk about this all day, but I actually have a client 12:30, speaking of being able to eat thank you so much for joining me and having this really really really important conversation. And it was really lovely for me to listen to hear to listen to your stories, and, and I appreciate your honesty and your openness. And I know that, that our listeners will really appreciate that too. And, and Beth, thank you so much for joining us. And then providing the coach perspective. And also social worker perspective. It's, it's been it was really, really enrich the conversation. So thank you so much.

Beth Malvino 1:13:40

My pleasure.

Lina 1:13:40

Thank you.

Hannah Choi 1:13:44

And that's our show for today. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation. As we talked about in this episode validation is a huge part of feeling better about the challenges we face. And we really, really hope that someone out there feels validated after hearing these shared struggles. You are not alone. Listen to what Lina shared about why she wanted to be on the podcast and why she became a social worker.

Lina 1:14:11

You know, I think it comes down to because I love people and I love creating spaces and holding space for people who don't feel like they belong or who don't ever feel validated just because I think most of my life, I felt that way. And yeah, it's, you know, it's really important, even if it's in the smallest of ways, or in ways that seem insignificant. Nothing is ever insignificant, I think.

Hannah Choi 1:14:44

If you know anyone who might really relate to Lina's and Cassie's stories, please share this episode with them. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Please reach out to us at podcast at beyond booksmart.com You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

If you’ve been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.

In today’s episode, we’ll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you’ll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She’s also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you’ll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches’ perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have!

Here are some resources related to our conversation:

A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing Child

Peg Dawson’s Smart but Scattered Books

Child Mind Institute Guide to Executive Functioning

Executive Function Skills by Age

Downloadable Guides by Age from Harvard University

Focus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challenges

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Hannah Choi 00:18

If you've listened to focus forward for a while, you'll know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on older kids, our teens and college age students. We've covered mental health, coping skills, social skills and college challenges. While we tend to think about how EF skills impact are older children, these skills do start developing in infancy. Babies' interactions with adults help them learn to focus their attention, build their working memory, and regulate their reactions to the things they experience. Everything is new, so they need to learn how to manage at all. As they grow, young children begin to learn planning, flexible thinking and attention. And as a parent or caregiver of young kiddos you might look at them and think "Do they have any executive function skills at all?" They're developing, and rather unreliable, EF skills require a lot of patience and understanding on our part. As I talked about before in my cognitive flexibility episode, it can help so much to learn about EF skill development. And in doing that, we can recognize that children's EF skill development is nowhere near where ours is. I thought it would be helpful to explore what EF skill development looks like in young children, how we can support them by providing tools that help and how we can support ourselves by understanding where they are in their EF skill development. In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting EF skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud, who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education, and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie and Mariam are all EF coaches with Beyond BookSmart. And they bring their coach's perspective to the conversation as well. And bonus if you have watched our webinar, How to Reduce Conflict and Transform Your Parenting Through Executive Function, you'll recognize Mariam's voice and wisdom. And if you haven't watched it, you can find the link in the show notes. It's packed full of executive functioning skill approaches, and tips for reducing conflict with our kids. And hey, I'm the host of that, too. All right now on to the show.

Hannah Choi 03:09

Hi, Maria. Thanks for joining me today.

Maria Ares 03:11

Hi, Hannah. Thanks for having me.

Hannah Choi 03:13

Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Maria Ares 03:16

Sure. My name is Maria. And I'm a speech language pathologist and a public preschool where I work with kids who are aged three, four and five. And I also work for Beyond BookSmart wearing many hats, and quite a bit of coaching and coach development and different roles throughout my time with Beyond BookSmart.

Hannah Choi 03:35

Great. And you're my sister!

Maria Ares 03:38

I am. Yes, fun fact.

Hannah Choi 03:42

So you are quite well versed, I would say at working with kids under five or five and under. And I was just talking with someone the other day who was surprised to hear that executive function skills are like they start developing even at birth, and you know, start to show up at written really young eight, you know, at really young ages. So, what do executive What does executive function look like in a kid who's under the age of five? And what are some challenges that might come up?

Maria Ares 04:18

Yeah, so pretty much every developmental milestone has some sort of executive function skill behind it. But what executive function challenges look like at this age is pretty much everything. Basically, every executive function skill needs to be supported in preschoolers. I would say that almost every preschooler has difficulty with some if not all executive function skills, and that's developmentally appropriate and that's what we're here for, you know, to teach them and guide them and help them figure out you know, these these little skills that help them be people that can do things.

Hannah Choi 04:58

Yeah, and as caregivers of children, it can be really frustrating because we're coming from a place of having really well, maybe not really great executive function skills, but more fully developed executive function skills. And so it's can be really hard to understand like, why can't they just fill in the blank?

Maria Ares 05:16

Absolutely. And there's so many blanks you can fill in there.

Hannah Choi 05:20

All day, every day. And I love that you said that it's developmentally appropriate. Like, that's totally normal. I mean, our frontal cortex, that prefrontal cortex does not finish the finish developing. And we're seeing that you can still make improvements on your executive function skills after your mid 20s, which is about when the prefrontal cortex kind of is finished developing. So obviously, a kid who is little their prefrontal cortex is just getting going,

Maria Ares 05:52

Absolutely, yeah, they're in the earliest, earliest stages of being able to, you know, show and develop a lot of these skills. And that's really what a lot of early childhood curriculum is centered around is sort of building up the skills that you need, and also the social emotional piece that goes along with executive functioning, and sort of how you can use those skills to keep learning and growing.

Hannah Choi 06:18

Yeah, and so I imagine that when parents feel it, parents might feel like there's not enough academics going on, it's in a preschool setting. But really, at that point, there's, it is really important to focus on that social, emotional and executive function, skill development.

Maria Ares 06:37

Absolutely. You need to be able to learn how to learn before you can start learning and being able to use your developing executive function skills to you know, complete different tasks in the classroom, make a project, follow directions, all those things are so important to academics and academic development, but you really can't make much progress academically, if you don't know how to learn first,

Hannah Choi 07:01

That reminds me of the idea of metacognition, where you in, in order, like as in, which is actually like pretty much the last executive function skill to fully develop. And the idea of metacognition is like learning how we learn, learning about our own brains and how our own brains work. And so it's kind of the same idea like these, the little kids can't really learn the academics until they learn just how to function with other people.

Maria Ares 07:30

Absolutely, yeah. And that metacognition piece is something that I think a lot about in my teaching. And I tried to help kids remember that everybody learns differently, and that everybody has different strengths, and everybody has different things that they need to work on. I really try often, after a task to ask, "Was that tricky for you? Or was that easy for you?" And then talk about why because starting to build those metacognitive skills, and understand that everybody's brain works really differently, I think is really important. So they can get to know themselves as a learner. And as a person.

Hannah Choi 08:10

I was just talking with my college client of mine the other day, and we were talking about how exactly that about how, if you have never been taught to notice how you experience things. And notice what like, what's tricky, what's easy. And then you can figure out the why if you've never been taught that, then well, first of all, it's never too late to learn that. But you've really missed out on some really great opportunities to, like learn about your own learning. So I love hearing that you do that with such little kids, because it is something that you have to practice. And I feel like as an adult, I don't remember learning that as a child, I don't remember learning, reflection, and to really think about how I do things and why I do things. And so it's it's great to hear that you're teaching that that early.

Hannah Choi 09:07

Right and I feel like as a kid, I had an idea of what should be easy and what shouldn't be hard and that wasn't always what I found. And I think that making it an individual thing can really help with self esteem because like Oh that one thing is supposed to be easy, but it's actually really hard for me. If you get if you if you get rid of that whole "is supposed to be easy piece" and think about you as a person and whether it's easy or hard for you that I think that can really help develop a you know, a stronger sense of self

Hannah Choi 09:44

And comparing yourself to yourself. This used to be hard. And now it is getting easier for me, instead of comparing yourself to other other kids, other people around you teaching kids to learn to compare themselves to themselves and not to anyone else and learn about how they learn. It's also a really great lesson for parents to learn, too. I imagine that let's look at your child's development, your child's progress, just compared to where they've come from, and not necessarily against any other children.

Maria Ares 10:18

Oh, yeah, totally, especially if there's siblings on the picture.

Hannah Choi 10:21

So the you I mean, you are saying that there are executive function challenges in pretty much every area off the top of your head? What are some of the most common would you say that you see in your, in your practice in your classrooms?

Maria Ares 10:36

Yeah, something that first comes to mind is like multi step directions. This can be really hard. attention span, understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses. Problem solving can be really challenging for some kids, and understanding of time is a huge one.

Hannah Choi 10:57

So do you think that executive function skills are something that parents, like, should spend time working on with their kids? Or are they just going to naturally evolve?

Maria Ares 11:08

I think the best thing for parents to do is to do a lot of modeling, modeling of your language modeling of planning, talking about the process for things, talking about how you can be present so that you can pay attention. But not you know, not. But I don't think that parents need to be specifically practicing any of these things, because like, we were saying it's developmentally appropriate for kids to still be working on that. But some things that I think can be really helpful are like before doing errands, you can talk about the plan, you know, each thing that you're going to do, and whether it will take a short time or a long time. And then when you're talking about time, I think making it relatable can be really helpful. So while two minutes, I mean, they don't really understand numbers, they also don't really understand time very well. So saying something like this will take as long as it takes to brush your teeth. Or this will take as long as one episode of Masha and the Bear, or this will take as long as it takes to drive to your grandparents' house. And then also give them the number to go along with that. So they start to learn, okay, five minutes is the kind of short time, you know, doesn't take me very long to do something that takes five minutes. But then an hour is like my entire lifetime, a super long time. So then just using those examples, and using that modeling can start to build the foundation of, you know, understanding time management and sort of what we can fit into certain blocks of time. Another tool that can be helpful, is if your child really struggles with multi step directions, or like a multi step plan, just writing out a super quick visual, with maybe a little picture of everything that needs to happen. So maybe they need to put on their socks, put on their shoes and wash their hands or something, just drawing a little picture of each of those and then helping them sort of check it off when they're done with it can really help with the planning and the executing of a of a project or just a multistep task.

Hannah Choi 13:22

And if someone is not an artist, are there resources online, I'm imagining you can grab some clipart from somewhere.

Maria Ares 13:33

Yeah, for sure. There's lots of different resources out there. I'm sure there's lots of free resources, but less than pics is a really great website for getting pictures like that. But honestly, you know, you don't need to be an artist stick figures are great. Doodles are great. I think just getting the idea down on on paper or on a whiteboard or something can be helpful.

Hannah Choi 14:00

And it shows like if you draw it, then it shows your child that it's that it's okay, if you don't have really great art skills.

Maria Ares 14:07

There is another opportunity to talk about that.

Hannah Choi 14:12

I love it. That's great. So what would you say that success looks like at this age? And I know that's, I know that's different for everybody. But would you what do you see first as success in that age group?

Maria Ares 14:28

Yeah, success can look different for every one. Because there are so many skills that our earliest learners are building. For some kids success might look like exclaiming that was easy, which shows that they're thinking about how tasks feel for them, you know, is it easy, is it hard? Success could look like executing both parts of a two step direction. For another success might look like remembering to put pants on.

Hannah Choi 14:58

Reminds me of a when I interviewed Fran, she said, kids with executive function challenges sometimes forget to put underwear on. So she said success in my house is when they remember to put underwear on.

Maria Ares 15:12

Yeah, it's it's hard to find a developmental milestone in early childhood that doesn't include executive function skills in some way.

Hannah Choi 15:20

Yeah. And it also, something that comes up a lot for us as coaches is the idea of looking for those small wins. And, and it didn't, and especially with this little, these little guys, it's not going to be these huge, you know, they're not gonna like write a paper, and then have, you know, have all these like, massive accomplishments that they've made in their executive function skills, you know, it's going to be more subtle, I imagine.

Maria Ares 15:48

Absolutely. Definitely, definitely more subtle. You know, they're growing and developing so much every day. So there's so much to notice, and so much to celebrate. And it might not always look like executive function skills, but they're under there for sure.

Hannah Choi 16:05

And I imagined that there's like there is at any, any age, you might make some progress, and then and then fall back of it and then go forward.

Maria Ares 16:15

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents to remember, you know, just how much their preschooler is learning and developing at one time. And, you know, if they were able to follow a two step direction last week, and this week, they're just, you know, having a really hard time with it. Think about the other things that they're developing that maybe their brain is focusing on a little bit more this week. And I think that we need to cut them a little slack personally, sometimes.

Hannah Choi 16:49

I agree, and it's, I guess, it's hard because the lens through which we are looking is from the point of view of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex and years of experience.

Maria Ares 17:01

Yeah. And it's also very easy for me to say this about my preschoolers, but when I'm talking about my own child, no, get those shoes on!

Hannah Choi 17:08

Yeah, That's right. Yes. It's just a two step direction. Yes, or when? When..or my 10 year old. When I say, "Could you put your clothes in the washing machine?" The second step is not mentioned. But it starting it is, is part of it. So he did. He did what I said. But yeah, you did not do the unspoken second step.

Maria Ares 17:46

Right. I recently made a, like a visual step by step chart for tooth brushing. After we had a little cavity incident. Yeah. So you know, I wrote, I'm just never going to not be a special education teacher. So there's charts and lists and everything in our house of how to do everything. But I had to make a new one, because I didn't include as my last step on the list to clean the spit out of the sink.

Hannah Choi 18:16

Oh, Yes!

Maria Ares 18:20

I mean, I thought you don't really need a step on a list for that.

Hannah Choi 18:24

But here we are. Here we are. And so does she do it now?

Maria Ares 18:28

Most of the time? Yeah. Right. Which is more than never before. So Right. There's progress. Yeah. And now we can just say, "check your list", rather than "clean the disgusting spit out of the sink", which is a lot easier and you know, feels a lot more. Just feels a lot better to say.

Hannah Choi 18:49

Yeah, and it takes a takes you out of the equation. You can blame it on the list. The list is the list is what it says. And who knows where that list came from? Yeah, select some internet list or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Maria Ares 19:07

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 19:11

All right. Have fun with those little kids.

Hannah Choi 19:13

Thanks. Okay, so now that we've learned about our youngest children's EF skill development with Maria, let's move on to my conversation with Stephanie and Mariam to hear about elementary aged kids and their EF skills. Hi, Stephanie and Mariam, thanks so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Stephanie, you want to go first?

Stephanie Regan 19:35

Sure. I'm Stephanie Regan. I'm an executive function coach with Beyond BookSmart and I've been working here at Beyond BookSmart for almost two years now. I was an elementary teacher and worked with children in different capacities for about 10 years.

Hannah Choi 19:51

Great. And how about you Mariam?

Mariam Mahmoud 19:53

I'm also one of the executive function coaches. I've been working with Beyond BookSmart for almost a year. I'm and I also have been a teacher since 2010. Working with kindergarten all the way to fourth grade.

Hannah Choi 20:07

Great. So you guys are the perfect people to ask, you have the executive function background and the elementary background. So great. Thank you for joining me today. So we are going to talk about executive function skills in elementary aged kids. So what do challenges look like at that age? And, you know, as, as I've talked about, in many episodes past, before this, we know that executive function skills develop over the beginning part of our lifetime and don't even mature until we're in our 20s, late 20s. And then, of course, we all have things that we still struggle with, even after that. But what do what are your challenges for kids who are in elementary school look like?

Stephanie Regan 20:51

I would say organization for for space and belongings is really huge. And what that looks like is a lot of students have a hard time remembering where to put things or where they've placed things or where things go. So that's really important. And also, I would say task initiation too, is hard, especially when you think about how impulse control is hard. And I think about that, when it's time to do homework, it can be really hard for a lot of students to begin homework, and not just kind of relax or do something else. That might be easier. I would also say self-regulation. Yes, definitely self regulation to again, and thinking about impulse control is another area to where executive function skill development is really important, because they're still learning to control their impulses.

Hannah Choi 21:38

Yeah, and that can show up, like you said, in emotion, it can show up in behavior, and it can show up in emotion. So yeah, yeah. And stuff like that self regulation piece is huge. I mean, even as adults, like how often like, I don't know, I want to throw a tantrum sometimes. But I have to regulate your emotions and appropriate way. And it's harder for the kids, because they're just not there yet. I know like, as a parent, my kids at home have certain things that they struggle with. And I'm sure in the classroom, they also have things that they have to work on. So where do, where do executive function skill, challenges show up for kids in the classroom?

Stephanie Regan 22:15

In the classroom, it can look like following directions, especially one step at a time. Sometimes directions can be complicated, or it can seem complicated to different students. So really, it can also come down to meeting steps broken down into smaller steps for students. So that's often where it can show up in the classroom. And I mean, there are a myriad of ways in which they can, but I feel like as far as following directions, and following routines.

Hannah Choi 22:46

That's that. And there's, I was just gonna say there are so many executive function skills involved in following directions, right? You like you have to memory you have to remember the steps you have to pay attention. You have to prioritize the knew the steps that you're supposed to be doing over the other thing that you want to do or that you weren't doing.

Stephanie Regan 23:06

Yeah, so many involved, not to mention distractions in the classroom, full of students. So, there's a lot going on.

Hannah Choi 23:15

Yeah, so that self regulation piece and impulse control.

Mariam Mahmoud 23:20

I wanted to add also organization, like just if a teacher gives a paper, like just getting the paper from the classroom to the house that you like, you have to know where to put it, and who to give it to you what stays home and what comes back.

Stephanie Regan 23:32

So these executive function skill challenges can also show up during recess. On the playground. So again, thinking about self-regulation, it can be hard to not just make friends, but also share friends. That's come up with a former younger client of mine. And also negotiating play can be really hard. I know, when I was a teacher, there was a rule. That was you can't say you can't play. But it's easier said than done. So self regulation during recess is a huge piece. And some students know, I shouldn't say know, but it's easier for some students to have unstructured time than is for other students. And recess can feel really unstructured. And sometimes, I mean, that that can be good. And it can also be challenging for for students. So

Hannah Choi 24:29

Yeah, I was just, I was just talking with my my son's friend. So my son is in fifth grade. And I was talking with his friend, and, and his friend was saying he does not like recess. And he was saying he doesn't like it because it's so crazy. And it's so yeah, I guess he didn't use the word unstructured, but I kind of read that, that's what he meant. So yeah, yeah, you just think of it as every kid would just like it because it's a break from doing work. But for some kids, it's it Can we I know I see that it is hard. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you have anything you wanted to add Mariam on that?

Mariam Mahmoud 25:09

Um, I don't think so I think like recess, some usually when we think of executive function skills, we're thinking of like school in like the content area, but like recess is just as important because school is not only for the educational purposes, it's also for the social purposes. So I think like, it was really important that Stephanie mentioned that recess is a huge, huge place where we see those skills take take place, or evolve over time.

Hannah Choi 25:36

Yeah. And and it shows how truly involved in every aspect of our lives as adults, and as children, aren't these executive function skills come into play, and they truly are self management skills, and, and how it can show up in different areas and how it can also really challenge kids and adults. But mostly, you know, we're talking about kids today really challenged kids, especially because they haven't fully developed them yet, especially there, many of them are still emerging in elementary school, they're just starting to, you know, just starting to access that whatever skill. So it's, it's a Yeah, no wonder it can be challenging. And I think understanding that is it as a parent, or as a caregiver, as a teacher understanding that can make a really huge difference

Stephanie Regan 26:30

It can. I know, it can be easier when you're in the place where we can take a step back and really think about it from a different perspective or think about it from a more objective view.

Hannah Choi 26:40

Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes me think of how nice it is to have someone who is not, not like super super, as involved with your kid as you are as a parent. So like a teacher can maybe teach some of these skills to their students, in a like, less fraught way that it might be for a parent, or like a coach or something, somebody who's outside of the family a little bit, and not like with a child all the time with all the baggage that comes along with the relationships we have with our kids?

Mariam Mahmoud 27:19

Absolutely. I mean, I have two children. One is like, very, very organized. And my younger one is also in fifth grade. And sometimes I'm like, even though I'm an executive function coach, and elementary school teacher, sometimes it doesn't work when I'm telling him the advice. But if it comes from a teacher, or from the coach, then he's like, the next day, like, he's slowly getting it. And I'm like, okay, awesome, as long as the help comes from somewhere, but yeah, it does. It matters. Like sometimes parents, no matter how much we want to get to through to our children coming from outside, like might have a different effect on them.

Stephanie Regan 27:56

Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's also a matter of reinforcement. So they're not just hearing it from from mom or dad, who they, you know, have to, you know, see, well, all the time as soon as they see all the time. But, you know, students spend a lot of time with their teachers as well. But it can help too. And you're, you're hearing getting more than one place. Absolutely.

Hannah Choi 28:16

So that makes me think like, How can parents support their kids executive function, development without? Or maybe not without friction? Because there's going to be friction, that's just part of the relationship. But how are some ways that parents can support their kids?

Mariam Mahmoud 28:35

Well, I say like, I think like, the best thing, especially for elementary school students is like I turn everything into a game, or something you'd like have them play, like plan that the activity or the school, like, whether it's school, or sports or like a fun activity at home, have them plan it out beforehand. It helps them reach whatever the goal is in mind, and have them thinking, "Oh, what, what do I want to accomplish? And what steps am I going to take to get there?" Like some activities, if you're reading a story at home, you could stop and ask the question like, "What would you do if you were that character?" Or what would happen if the character was different in the story, this helps, it gets their cognitive thinking, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be upset, or maybe the character shouldn't be upset. And then they like kind of connect that to self to what's happening in the real life. So the text to self connections is really important. You can also play like those games, like Simon Says, or card games card games is like my own children, they love card games. It helps with the memory skills, it helps with like paying attention, it helps with a lot of those executive function skills in a fun way. It also allows them to take turns, follow directions, and even like that impulse control, like it helps them like they have to wait their turn or like they can't just like call out so It's a it's a fun way where they're learning the executive function skills, but at the same time, they don't know. It's like learning.

Hannah Choi 30:06

Yeah, exactly. Right. They're actually learning a ton of stuff. Yeah. And that's also good too. Because as parents, it can often end up that the interactions that we have with our kids are not always super fun. So, so giving, giving yourself a chance to just play and have fun with your kids, while also teaching EF skills at the same time, is really great. Yeah, I think for me, definitely getting out of the way, and trying to trying to move them towards independence, and also move towards having more positive interactions that have less to do with, what do you need? What do you need to do? Are you doing what you need to do? Why aren't you doing this? So being able to support them in that way, is really nice. So I'm a coach, I'm an executive function coach, I have, you know, a ton of knowledge and experience supporting people and kids with executive function challenges. And I've, you know, done a lot of research on it. I mean, I host a podcast about it. So I have a lot of knowledge. And I still struggle to come up with tools and strategies that I can use for myself, but also that my kids can use so that we can work on developing theirs, and also give them this independence and this autonomy that they crave. And that I need for them to have, so that I can you know, just do my live my life. So what are your further things that come up for kids like the organization and the self regulation and the task initiation? What, what are your go to go to tools that you teach to your clients and to their parents?

Stephanie Regan 31:50

Well, I would say my go-to tool is a checklist. It sounds really Yeah. and straightforward. And I mean, it's a tool that I use on a weekly basis. So it can be easier to teach it and support it when you use it. So I think having a checklist, an example would be a checklist for an after school routine. And that could look like, you know, come home, put my bag away, eat a snack, start homework, it can have a number of things on it. But I think it's good to keep it to like three or five things. I also think if it's visible and accessible, then it's more helpful. So with that in mind, I think it's important to place it where the client or student can see it at eye level, and it can help I think, ease any tension or frustration around reminding your student or reminding a child of what he she or they need to do when they get home. You can also refer to it like, oh, like remember, you have a checklist that you like, do this, or did you do that? Or what is your checklist, say and if it's at eye level, then the student if the if they're if they can read, then a student can refer to it. And also it's important to use simple language to

Hannah Choi 33:08

Or pictures as well. Right? Yes.

Stephanie Regan 33:10

Pictures. I do like to use pictures. I won't say I'm a visual learner, because you learn differently. You learn different subjects differently or different topics differently. But I I do like visualization. And I do like pictures that can go along with words or phrases, if not, if I think it's necessary. So that can also be really helpful.

Hannah Choi 33:36

Yeah, we have a list on our door that goes out to the garage with the things that the kids need to bring in. And it's really nice to just be able to say, "Did you check the list?" I don't have to get involved. I just have to say, "Did you check the list?" I had to make the list, but and I hung up the list. But after that, all I have to say is "Did you check the list?" And then if they didn't check the list, you know, that's on them. So and I mean, my kids are older. So it is easier for me to say that's on them if they didn't check the list, but we scaffold them right? We maybe support them if they forget something on the list and then move them towards leaving it up to them if they forget things on the list.

Stephanie Regan 34:13

And there can become a point in time where they memorize the list. Oh, yeah, hi is a few things on the list and you don't really need to point it out. You know, they can they might come to a place where they have it memorized which is good too.

Hannah Choi 34:25

Yeah, I was just talking last night with a friend of mine whose kids are in second and third grade. And she was saying that that she was sharing that she also has a checklist for the morning and it says "pack backpack" and she said she's so funny, she was like "I used I even used indented bullets." So she has packed backpack and then indented bullets. And then it lists the things that go into the backpack and she noticed that her son had not been putting the snack in and she's like, why didn't you put the snack in? He said well because it didn't say pack snack. She's like me, it's just to take the pack from the top part. Pack the indented bulleted things.

Stephanie Regan 35:04

So, yeah, yeah, reminder that students can be very literal people very, very literal. Not just children!

Hannah Choi 35:12

Don't assume! And yes, that is such a good point. Stephanie, I completely agree. Yes. What about you, Mariam? I'm, what do you like to use?

Mariam Mahmoud 35:22

No, I honestly like the same as Stephanie, those checklists. For the younger students. When my children were younger, I instead of doing it over and over again, like, I just put it in like, one of those sleeves, like a paper protector, and kind of turned it into like a dry erase thing. So they would check it off, then I would erase it and then use it again. Yeah, brilliant. And putting it on the refrigerator or the same spot every day, like just having it there. Or like, when they were like, a lot younger, any, like little magnets interact and be like, Oh, I got it's on instead of a checklist, like just put like a little tiny magnet.

Hannah Choi 35:58

Oh, yeah. Smart. I know. Something that Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Stephanie Regan 36:03

I was gonna say I'm an adult. And I like checking things off. In Google. I still get satisfaction from checking things off my grocery list.

Hannah Choi 36:14

yes, I'm the same way I use any list. And when you tap, it disappears. It's very satisfying. Yeah. I also am a big fan of writing things that I did on my list. So if it wasn't on the list, but I did it, I still write it on the list and then cross it off. After the fact.

Stephanie Regan 36:33

I was gonna say what you said about like, doing things that weren't on the list reminded me of five minute goals, or the idea of doing like, what you can have five minutes, because you could actually end up doing a lot more than you think you thought you could. Another good strategy or tool was like, okay, like if, if something is a fight, or a struggle with your child at home, or even a student at school, or a client during a coaching session? The Five Minute goals out okay, well, let's see how much you can get done in five minutes. And a lot of times, it's also been three minutes with a particular client of mine, but it's like, what, what can you get done in three minutes? And that I set a timer, it can also turn into a game, or it can be more fun.

Hannah Choi 37:16

So yes, like they're racing. Yes. Yeah.

Stephanie Regan 37:20

Doing more than you thought you could is also it can also boost self esteem and, and what have you, so that that's also good to.

Hannah Choi 37:27

Absolutely I love that tool.

Mariam Mahmoud 37:29

It also enforces our time awareness. Like they're like, Oh, well, that was five minutes, and I was able to put my shoes away and get my backpack out and get a snack or whatever they could do in five minutes. Like, they're usually very, like, amused or amazed that they could, they could do that much in five minutes. So.

Hannah Choi 37:47

I was I had that experience. When I, I, we have a gas stove. And I really hate cleaning it off after we cook dinner because you have to like, lift up the grates. And there's so many crevices. It's so annoying. And so I found myself avoiding it, which is gross. And then it looks gross. And and so I said oh, you know what I'm gonna time myself is I think that it takes me about 10 minutes. It took me four minutes, like four minutes top to bottom even wiping down the oven door and the handle on everything. Like Hannah. So every time I don't want to clean off the stove at night, I always say four minutes, you have four minutes. Yeah, it's a really good tool. The other thing I really like about five minute goals and that I always say to myself, and anyone else that I'm suggesting use it is that when that timer goes off, and whether you've set it for two minutes or five minutes or whatever, you can then either decide to be done, or keep going. And it's really nice, because it's like a built in permission to be done. I'm only asking you to do this for five minutes. Oh, you're you're into it. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just keep going. Alright, then keep going. But if you're like, No, this sucks, and I don't want to do this anymore. Then you stop it. I really I like that. That flexibility built in.

Stephanie Regan 39:04

Yeah, I was gonna say it's good for task initiation and also cognitive flexibility, too. It's like, Oh, that wasn't so hard. Maybe I can keep going.

Hannah Choi 39:15

Right totally gets you to change your perspective on it.

Mariam Mahmoud 39:18

Absolutely. I use that strategy actually, for my, my one son, he hates going outside. Like he just doesn't like playing outside and the other one like really enjoys it. So I'm like, Just 10 minutes a day after school just go out for 10 minutes a day. And he's out there for like 20-30 minutes like he absolutely loves it. Um, so I'm like this really like it worked. Just setting that and sometimes like if he's tired, he's like, it's a 10 minutes up, but for the most part, like it got him to go outside more, which was really great at our house, at least.

Hannah Choi 39:48

Yes. And that brings me back up. Always, always, always just start small, right? Anything that can that feels like it's going to be hard. Feels like it's going to be Challenge start small, which is the same thing when you are implementing new strategies that you're using with your kids to try to make some change in either your relationship with them or trying to build autonomy and independence for them. So you have to start small, this is not a change that's going to happen overnight. It's not, you know, you can't all of a sudden throw all these tools at your kids, and be like, tada, magic. It just doesn't work that way. And there's going to be times that we slip, and there's going to be times that, that we forget. And it's just easier for us to just pack their backpack because we're late. And I just want to pack your backpack because you're not doing it right anyway. But as long as as long as we recognize that is not going to happen overnight, and just do small steps, small steps working towards that independence, I think, at least for me, personally, and what I've seen in my clients, it makes a really big difference.

Mariam Mahmoud 40:55

Absolutely. And celebrate those small successes too. It's really important if they forgot their backpack for a week, and they finally remembered it, but they forgot to put their Chromebook inside. At least they remember their backpack. So like it's a small, those small steps, but celebrating it because it makes a huge difference when you're like, Oh, awesome job, great job bringing your backpack every day. They get that sense of pride. And they get the sense of oh, you know what, I could keep doing this? And I could add on?

Hannah Choi 41:24

Yeah, and they start to see the benefit of doing absolutely, yeah. And that makes me think about how, like, we only have the lens that we have through which to look like we are adults. And we are looking at their situation through this adult lens. And so sometimes it can be really hard to understand like, why can't you just remember to do whatever it is that I've just asked you to do? So I think, let me do you see that a lot when you're working with parents and their kids like helping the helping each other understand that we're all coming from a different perspective?

Mariam Mahmoud 42:02

Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest things that we have to actually talk to parents about it, just put yourself in their shoes. Yes, it is easy for us, because we've already been through it. Or like been, been through something similar to it, you know, like, we can think of a time that you forgot about your dentist appointment, your doctor's appointment, or you forgot to turn off the stove, when you're making tea, I'm like, it happens to all of us. So we really have this, tell them like just try to think as like the five year old or seven year old or even the teenagers, like there's a lot going on in their mind. It might not be on their top of the things to do is to take their backpack to school, like maybe they were really nervous about a test or, you know, one of their friends were sick or something happened, you know, we just have to always think about what are they feeling?

Hannah Choi 42:56

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like that whole...like, for anyone who's listening right now, like you're, you're taking the time to maybe learn something and maybe find something that can help you understand your kids, or maybe ease some of the friction or conflict between you and your kids. And then that's how, like our kids can learn from the role models that they have. And if they if like from their teachers, or their elder siblings, or if they have a coach, just they're just still learning and we were all still learning. I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.

Stephanie Regan 43:34

We're definitely all still learning. And I mean, I have my own example of I mean, I don't know if I should lead with logical consequences, but because it doesn't always it doesn't feel good when you forget to do something. And you know, because there's, you know, the intention of doing it, and there's the impact. You know, it's one thing if it affects you, it's another thing if it affects someone else, but I was just thinking how I mean, it can be good. If it's a small logical consequence. That's not detrimental. For students to be like, oh, like, I didn't, this would, I mean, be for an older client, but I you know, I didn't look at Google Calendar and I've got to have a quiz, a science quiz. So the logical, you know, the, so there's a consequence of forgetting the quiz, which stinks and then But then there's like, Okay, so next time I'm going to do this. Yes. Which is really important for for that awareness. metacognitive awareness and growth as well.

Hannah Choi 44:37

So do you guys have any other go to tools that you'd like to share with your clients and parents,

Mariam Mahmoud 44:41

So one go to tool that like, I think all my clients love once I tell them about it as a fastbreak plan. It's basically like, Okay, I have homework to do, and I have studying to do and I have to walk the dog and my chores to do but I also want to play my video games. So it's coming home and having the child like come home, right from school and do everything that's like a priority according to the parents standards. Just break it up like, Okay, let's do read your reading vocabulary words for 30 minutes, then you could do like a five minute or 15 minute break, then let's get back to doing maybe your math work. This will take like, maybe 20 minutes, okay, then let's take a break. I'm just having those little like brain breaks in between it really lets the child kind of have a sense of their own schedule. Like, yeah, I could do this or I could do that and get the child involved with the fastbreak plan, right? It sounds like does this work for you? Like one of my children, like he gets home, he wants his work, done his homework, like he wants it out of the way. The other one, like he is tired from work, and he's like, I want to play first. And I'm like, Okay, let's come up with a routine that works for you. I mean, it took me a while to get there. Because I'm like, No, it has to be like this. But once I have, like, I listened to him, and I told him, like, he told me what he wants to do. Now he gets all of his work done. But he's not doing it, how I would do it, but that's totally okay. He's using basically that fast break plan where he gets the work done. But he has that time to play and just kind of relax in between.

Hannah Choi 46:15

And I love how you brought up how, like for you, that's not how you would do it. But you you were able to see from his point of view, this is this really is gonna work for him and how his sibling is, had to approaches it differently. And my kids are the same way. My fifth grader he wants to come in, he wants to get his homework done right away. He doesn't want to have anything that he needs to do. And then he can just go and do it. And then my daughter, she likes to kind of spread it out over the over the evening. So yeah. And I think I think that's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to do, it's hard to see other people's perspectives, like regardless of who the person's perspective is you're trying to see, it's hard to do, and I do, I really think it's, it is absolutely worth taking the time to try to understand. And you know, and if they come up and like I love how you said get them involved. So they come up with a plan that does really work for them. Why do they have to do it the way you would do it? As long as it's working for them? Why not? Why not? Let them discover that on their own? And how much? How many lessons in independence and autonomy does that teach them?

Mariam Mahmoud 47:24

Absolutely not to mention, it really does reduce that friction. Like it like,

Hannah Choi 47:29

It gets you out of the way!

Mariam Mahmoud 47:31

Oh, I wish I did this a long time ago, like it really like, right? He's doing his work. He's getting everything done by the end of the night, which is the end goal anyways. So I actually never works well.

Hannah Choi 47:42

Yeah. And the consequences, the natural consequences, logical consequences that you were talking about before Stephanie? Like, okay, so here, I'm going to let you, you know, build this plan, and I'm going to, I'm going to trust you to work through this plan. And if you don't manage your time, well, and you are still you know, up doing your stuff late or you didn't get it done, and then you don't get to turn it in, then there's a consequence. And then maybe you are able to, to, you know, learn from that for the next time. And I think, as parents and maybe even as caregivers not not in the role of a parent, but even as a teacher, especially with younger children. You don't want your kids to experience those natural consequences, you don't want them to have a negative experience, you don't want them to feel bad, you know, you just want them to have this like happy existence where they don't experience those negative feelings. But that's where they learn. And that all those opportunities to learn all that is only going to serve them really well as they get older, and the challenges get bigger, and their responsibilities get bigger. And so if we're constantly trying to protect them from those negative emotions, whatever it is, by doing all the things that they forgot for them, then they miss out on a lot of learning opportunities. I think it is important to consider if you have the time and the bandwidth to consider the different aspects of each situation that can be helpful.

Mariam Mahmoud 49:13

Absolutely. And give the child time as well. Like if if they make their own schedule, and they're like it's gonna work and the first day they didn't get their homework done. It's not going to change overnight. Again, it's progress, like so what I usually do is like, let's try it for a week or two. And then we talk about it what worked, what didn't work, let's tweak. I mean, as long as their grades aren't going down, and there's they're not forgetting their backpack every single day. I let them learn from the natural consequences. And then we talk about what worked what didn't work, and we change it, because that's how they learn.

Hannah Choi 49:44

Yep, yeah. And it really does take a long time. It's not it's not overnight. I mean, not even for us, you know, it's as caregivers it's it doesn't happen overnight, either. Like if we're trying to change our approach to our parenting. It doesn't happen overnight. So you Yeah. So as for kids who have for kids who have coaches or who maybe they have like a tutor, or, you know, they work one on one with a specialist, how, how do you guys see parental support coming in? They're like, how did how do you? How do you work with parents of young children.

Mariam Mahmoud 50:25

Um, for me, I just I let the parents know that like, let the child's practice. If we're working on something in the coaching session, like just practice what we're working on reading for us, for Beyond BookSmart, we have those portal notes, right, where you kind of communicate with the parent, what's going on, let them read the portal, make notes and understand what the tool is, share, like sharing the tools that you use at home with the coach or the tutor or even the teacher, just be like, Oh, we use this at home, like, as simple as color coding. Maybe you could try it in the classroom, it really helps when there's that communication. So communication is like the top key of helping the child no matter who they're learning it from. It helps us work together and help them succeed, which is the main goal

Hannah Choi 51:15

It really reinforces that consistency, which is what you need to find any success. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? In your experience as as coaches of young children? Is there anything? Any takeaways that are really relevant for, for Listen, our listeners.

Mariam Mahmoud 51:35

I think just basically, just like we said, like communication, and patience, and just consistency is really, really key to having your child succeed. And working with the teacher with the administration, with the coach, with the tutor, no matter who your child sees, even if it's if they're basketball or baseball or playing a sport. Just knowing what your child is working on, and having that open communication could help them succeed.

Stephanie Regan 52:04

I would say the goal is progress, not perfection.

Hannah Choi 52:08

Absolutely. Yes. i When I interviewed Peg Dawson, she said progress. She said her colleague had a thing on the wall that said "Progress is measured in in years and not months". So it just it does. It does. Takes a while. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

Stephanie Regan 52:29

Thank you for having us.

Mariam Mahmoud 52:30

Thank you.

Hannah Choi 52:32

And that's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversations about executive function skill development in our youngest kiddos, and that maybe it helps with some of those challenges we experience while parenting or teaching them. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share our show with the people in your lives who might like learning about EF skills and little kids, you never know. It might just make a huge difference for them. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you listen on Apple or Spotify, give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

When it comes to helping students learn more efficiently, Executive Function skills are the greatest tool teachers have at their disposal. Yet, many teachers aren’t aware of their value, and the ones that do often don't know how to support them in the classroom. For example, we had one teacher ask us on our Facebook page how teachers can support their own Executive Function challenges while also managing a classroom full of kids who have varying degrees of Executive Function challenges, too. As soon as I read this question, I knew EF in the classroom was an important topic to cover on Focus Forward - and that I also had the perfect people to reach out to.

BrainTracks is a separate division of Beyond BookSmart that’s focused on training teachers in Executive Function tools and strategies that they can use in the classroom. I invited the program’s director, Susan Lohman, and one of their School Training specialists, Allison Larthey, to talk about the role Executive Function skills play in the classroom and how teachers can help both their students and themselves develop these skills further. Listen in to learn how you can apply these same strategies to find more time and energy for learning at home or in the classroom.

I hope you enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out the relevant links and resources below that were mentioned in the episode!

Braintracks

Braintracks Website

Braintracks Resources

Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay by Michael Delman

Ep 15: Building Meaning: Life Lessons from an Executive Function Pioneer

Tools

6 Steps to Successful Goal Setting for Students (and Adults!)

SMART Goals - How to Make Your Goals Achievable

Circle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in Action

Mirror Neurons

Mirror neurons: Enigma of the metaphysical modular brain - PMC

The Mind's Mirror

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi Well, listeners, this episode is a celebration for me because we've officially been on the air for over one year now. I'd like to thank you all for listening. It really means the world to me and my podcast team. I'd like to thank them today too, for helping me bring executive function, skill, knowledge and information to as many people as possible. I am not kidding when I say this podcast would absolutely not be possible without them. I'd like to thank Sean Potts, our producer and editor, Justice Abbott, our content designer, Jackie Hebert, our director of marketing. Mimi Fernandez, our Director of Customer Success, and the rest of the Beyond BookSmart team, including Michael Delman and Rachel Krompinger who never fail to support us and our work. Something that's really important to me is helping people recognize that there are going to be areas of executive functioning that come easily to you, and other areas that probably always have been, and may always will be challenging for you. And this is okay. As we've been exploring over the last year, there are tools and strategies that can help immensely in those challenging areas. Someone asked about this on our Beyond BookSmart Facebook page. The person who posted the question wanted to know how teachers can support their own executive function skill challenges, while also managing a classroom full of kids whose EF skills are all still emerging and in various states of effectiveness. As soon as I read this question, I knew it was an important topic to cover on focus forward, and I knew exactly who I had to reach out to. If you've listened to Episode 15, where I interviewed Michael Delman, the founder and CEO of beyond booksmart, you will have heard us talk about the exciting development of our school division, which was created out of a desire to democratize access to the critical executive function skills education our one on one coaches provide. This school division has grown into what we now call BrainTracks, and is led by director Susan Lohman. I invited Susan and one of her school training specialists Allison Larthey on the podcast to talk about exactly what the Facebook comments are brought up - How to support executive function skill development in the classroom for both kids and their teachers. So listen to learn about the role executive function skills play in the classroom, tools that teachers can use to find more time and energy for learning. And how brain tracks is working diligently to create access to life changing executive function, skill development for all kids, their teachers and their families. Hi, Susan and Allison, thanks so much for joining me. Would you introduce yourself so our listeners know who you are. Susan, you want to start?

Susan Lohman 03:25

Sure. So I am Susan Lohman. I'm the Director of School Programming, BrainTracks - our school division, and I am a former teacher and instructional coach. So I worked in middle schools and high schools. I worked in traditional brick and mortar schools. And I also spent a lot of time in online education for K - 12. My firsthand experience in the classroom allows me to say The struggle is real for teachers teaching is a really hard job, a very hard job. As an instructional coach, I visited hundreds of classrooms and saw similar experiences with teachers and students. And then through the work of my work as a coach at Beyond BookSmart I realized that there was actually different in a better way for students and teachers. So the work that I was doing with my clients, I started using those tools and strategies with my own students when I was teaching and then when I was a instructional coach, using it with teachers, so I realized this success before even heading up BrainTracks.

Hannah Choi 04:39

Cool. That's great. Yeah. And how about you, Allison?

Allison Larthey 04:42

So I'm Allison Larthey. And I have been working for Beyond BookSmart since 2019, and I'm an executive function coach, and I'm also a school training specialist. And my background is elementary education. I had one of those New Jersey unicorn degrees where I could I teach anything in the classroom from preschool up through eighth grade. And I also am a certified school counselor. So I really love bringing all that information together. And that's one of the things that I love about what I learned about Beyond BookSmart was how we kind of marry those two things of, you know, calming the nerves, I work with a lot of clients with anxiety. And so we, you know, we practice with all those skills and how that impacts their education is just so much fun to see the progress, the growth. And, you know, so yeah, I spent a lot of time in elementary education. And I was incorporating these skills before I knew what they were and like, kind of had that name to go along with it. So but I, you know, was able to kind of put that name to it, I'm like, This is so much more impactful. And to really target this is why that worked all those years ago. So it's really fun to see the impact that it has on teachers and our clients. And it's, it's just so much fun to do this work really.

Hannah Choi 06:06

That's great. I know, I love it. I mean, I don't, I don't work in a classroom, and I don't work with teachers, but I can just relate exactly with what you're talking about, it's seeing the impact of the of your effort is just there's nothing better. Yeah. So the reason I asked you guys to join me today is because someone had commented on the Beyond BookSmart Facebook page about it, wondering about what teachers who have executive function challenges can do to support themselves in the classroom. And, and it just really got me thinking about how, like on the podcast, I always talk about how, you know, like, as adults, we have executive function challenges, whether you have ADHD, or not everyone has an area of executive function that is challenging to them. And so, in a classroom, you're managing, you know, however many different personalities, some of whom have more or less, you know, executive function challenges themselves. Plus, you're managing yourself. And so I thought, who could be some experts that can help me dive into this topic. And so I just knew I had to come to you. So thank you so much. So I want to ask you a lot of our BrainTracks because I love the idea of it. I love the idea of, of teaching as many people as we can about executive function skills. I mean, that's why I'm doing the podcast. But can we first talk about why do executive function skills matter in the classroom?

Susan Lohman 07:41

Executive function skills are really what allows the students to learn. So it allows them to self regulate, enough to be in the mindset to be able to absorb and manipulate the knowledge of teachers sharing. If they're not able to self regulate, and focus, pay attention, initiate tasks, all these things, they really can't access the knowledge that comes through the teachers instruction. So EF skills allow students really to manage themselves in their lives in school, but also out of school. If they're not able to prioritize tasks, organized belongings and their time to start task to finish tasks, they're not able to perform at their best. And so ultimately, the the E F skills and supporting them is sort of a ticket to them being able to learn and to maximize that potential. It allows them to be more independent leaders of themselves in their job of being a student, but also of themselves outside of school. Students who are receiving executive function skills support through tilt tools and strategies, their parents often see the same changes at home, those routines have habits that they're developing, transfer over out of school to.

Hannah Choi 09:07

And I imagine that when the kids feel like they have some autonomy and some power over their executive function skills, it gives space to the teachers to be able to teach and be able to access their executive function skills more easily.

Allison Larthey 09:30

Yeah, I would definitely say that that's true. Because whenever we practice these skills, I mean, I know I feel that way. As a coach, I feel that way when I work with with, you know, in the classroom when I work with teachers, you know, to translate it into the client into their classrooms. Whenever we're practicing these skills, the impact is felt not just by the person on the receiving end, but it's also on on our end. You know, the more I practice with like, you know, Circles of Control. Well, with a client of like letting go of the things outside of our control, then I'm practicing that skill at the same time with them. So, the same is true for those executive function skills, you know, if we really want our students to be organized and where their paperwork is, as we're bringing awareness to that, and as we're practicing that skill, like, then we as the teacher are also going to benefit from that, because we're paying attention to it. And we're putting into practice, at the same time that we're working on it with the kids. So I really I love that, that the teacher asked that of, you know, how do I help myself in that as well, because I really do think that it's great to recognize those strengths and weaknesses that we have, as human beings, that you know, we all have those strengths, we all have those weaknesses, just like you said. So when we're practicing those skills, and we're just aware of, you know, what this is, this is a challenge for me. So maybe I can bring this into the classroom and practice it with my students. And then we're all benefiting from it. And we're removing that stigma of everybody has to be perfect all the time, which I think we carry sometimes as teachers. And, you know, that's a hard thing to let go.

Susan Lohman 11:10

When you think about it logically, also, students during the week, they're at a school or in a classroom, more hours, and they're actually home. So if these, these routines, and these habits are occurring at school, they will more easily be able to transfer at home, because they're happening for a greater amount of time.

Hannah Choi 11:35

Something that you said, Allison made me think about how like, when I coach and I'm working with a client, sometimes if I share my own struggle and say, like, oh, I, you know, I can totally relate to that, or like, this is what I'm doing, to try to, you know, level the playing field in whatever area I'm struggling with. The look of, of surprise, and also relief on my clients faces like, Oh, all right, like, she's my coach, and she feels that way. So I imagine for it's the same thing for kids in the classroom,

Allison Larthey 12:10

And we're modeling that it's okay to keep learning and growing, and that even as adults, these things may still be challenging. So what do we do about that? And that's, you know, I think that that's really powerful. And that removes the stigma to for some of our students who are struggling with those areas, if we're patient with ourselves. And you know, it's like that, you know, the expression of you can't pour from an empty cup. So if I'm just pouring, pouring, pouring, and I'm never filling mine back up, then then what am I actually pouring out. So when our students are, like, when I when I have patience with myself, I'm gonna have a lot more patience, to, you know, help support my students. But if I'm feeling frustrated, then that may come across, too. That's one of the things we talked about in one of our workshops is those mirror neurons of like, when our students are reflecting back, what we're, what we're putting out there, and then we're reflecting back what they're putting out there. So how do we, you know, kind of balance all of that, but that like patience and grace with ourselves, as the teacher, I think is so important for our students as well.

Hannah Choi 13:20

Yeah, so how, how, in addition to that, How can teachers incorporate executive function tools and skills into the classroom, so that they are able to reach kids and focus more on instruction and, and help kids have autonomy and, and ownership of their own work that they're doing?

Allison Larthey 13:42

Yeah, that's where we, when we're working with teachers and schools, we always want to emphasize that we're not trying to add any new, you know, new stuff. There was, there's this one analogy that I heard from a professional development workshop, about a million years ago was probably like, I don't know, 15-20 years ago, maybe, that somebody explained a "constipated curriculum", where we just like shove stuff, and we never take anything out. And, like, do that we are here to take the practices that teachers are already doing the things that they want to focus their attention on, whatever that may be, however big or small, you know, whether it's I just want my students to put their names on their papers, or it's I work you know, we've got this massive final exam and we need our students to be prepared, no matter how big or small the task is. We're just going to take what they're already doing, and helping them to examine it in that executive function light and then adjust the practice to then make it the you know, who's benefiting from this practice. If I take the homework papers home to grade every single night, who benefit hits from that, do my students benefit? Do I benefit? And if that's not the case, then what can I do differently to really help them grow their skills. And so that's, you know, that's really what we like to do is talk about the tool, talk about the strategy, and then allow teachers to break it into their own practice and say, you know, oh, I could see myself doing this here. And, you know, so we're not looking for the, you know, piling on massive things we're looking for, you know, make it efficient,

Susan Lohman 15:33

Hannah, sometimes too, that just bringing the awareness to a student's behavior, or their lack of behavior to a specific executive function skill, a light bulb goes off. Oh, that's why she does her homework or forgets to turn it in half the time, I could never understand why someone would do all that work, and then not turn it in connecting the dots between behaviors, executive function skills, and then something that we as educators can do just a little bit differently, tweak and twist it a little bit differently, present something slightly different can have a huge impact.

Hannah Choi 16:15

Yeah, because if you don't, if you haven't had the opportunity to learn, you know, an understanding to learn the connection between executive function, executive dysfunction, and the related behaviors, then how would you know?

Susan Lohman 16:32

Right? Right, exactly.

Allison Larthey 16:35

And the benefits, yeah, the benefits of, you know, working on those skills, you free up so much time in your day, when you're not managing those little things. Like, whenever you have that good classroom management, and those, you know, those student independent routines, even from as early as kindergarten, I mean, back in the days when I would substitute teach, you knew the teachers that had that really strong routine. And it just made everything flow so much easier, when you would walk into those classrooms. So then as the teacher, it's easier to have a sick day, to have that day off. And you have that, you know, that benefit is so widespread of you know, it's not just about you know, are they prepared for that test, because, of course, we want them to be prepared for the test. That's why we're there. But we also really want them to leave with those those life skills of, you know, will they pick up a book when they have a free free moment. And, you know, so that classroom management, the student independence, and then the way it, it does free up more time in the classroom, you know, when we aren't having to hear all the arguments over kickball after lunch, and you know, then we have time to dive into math a lot faster. So, you know, we open up that space for the things that the students want to do, that the teacher wants to do. And it just flows so much, so much nicer when you have that, you know, when everybody's feeling good about those practices, and feels like they have that independence.

Hannah Choi 18:11

Right, and then it takes you takes us back to what we were talking about before, you're able to take better care of yourself, when you have that space to breathe and to not be rushing from one to the next and and trying to shove some behavior management in there and or classroom management in there. And yes, I taught preschool I know it's not the same as as as like K through 12. But I remember that I would really have benefited from a lot of that from just understanding more about, like, I understood the child development, but not the executive function part. Like I never remember learning about that. And how important that really is,

Susan Lohman 18:55

Hannah, that's that's a really good point of preschool. I was a high school English teacher, but I did sub for a year in a preschool room, which sounds very silly. I really was only qualified because I had my own kids. But looking at that I was at that time, I was a coach with Beyond BookSmart and I remember thinking, I'm seeing the emergence of executive function skills. In these little ones, the four year olds and really supporting them that early makes a difference when they're in first grade or third grade or seventh grade. They're starting small and in starting when they are wanting that autonomy over themselves and turning those routines into habits and have great effects you know, throughout their their school career.

Hannah Choi 19:50

We're going to be doing an episode on executive functions skill development in younger kids in the next few week so that the Yeah, yeah, I was super excited about that. Yep. So it is really important. And, and I think that you're right. When we start early, when those skills are emerging, it really does make a difference in the long run. Yeah. So, so back to classrooms, what are your go to tools that you would share with any teacher, because you know, it'll impact them positively?

Susan Lohman 20:29

Yeah, I think I'll start, Hannah, with one that I use myself, I've used it with all of my clients, with my own kids. And that is the the five minute goals and doesn't necessarily have to be five minute. But the thought is to use a timer to make something more manageable, to allow somebody to start on a task, or to complete part of a task to recognize that, Wow, I did all that in just five minutes. It can be used in a variety of ways. If somebody is struggling to get started on a paper, which is so common, setting the timer for five minutes and saying, just even brainstorm, start in the middle of the paper, start with the thing you know, best and just write for five minutes. It can be used that way it can be used, if somebody is not wanting to do something. And they know they have to do it, saying, Okay, we're only going to do it for five minutes and see what we get done with. And then we're going to leave it and come back to it in an hour or whatever. It sets boundaries around something that seems impossible, or something you don't want to do. It's also a way to have students who have struggles with paying attention and focusing five minutes seems so small, that it's not intimidating to them. Oh, I can do that for five minutes. It's just five minutes. Yeah, so that's one that I that I always use always even with myself. I use it.

Hannah Choi 22:15

Me too. I love that tool. It saved me so many times.

Allison Larthey 22:19

Oh, absolutely. That's a three way, three way agreement on that one. It's like a favorite go to because you can use it in so many different ways. And I would say one of my favorites, too is probably the the DKDK, The do know, don't know. And this one is so great, because it can again be adaptable to all levels, all, you know, practices, whatever skill it is you're trying to reinforce. And basically you just sorta what do I know? What do I sort of know? And what do I really really not know, like I forgot it even existed kind of don't know. And I love that because you can use it for so many things you can have, you know, your high school students can keep track of that they can use their notes and sort them in a chart to say, Oh, I totally know this. So I really don't have to spend a lot of time reviewing it. I sort of know this, I might get it right on the test, I might not get it right on the test. So I need a little bit more practice. And then the I don't even know what this means I definitely need to talk to my friends or ask my teacher or go to a tutor, or you know, read up on this watch a YouTube video, I need more time. And then you break apart your study methods into more efficient practices of I can spend time on this little bit of time here. And then just a real quick review over here. And I love how you can use that even at the youngest grades of you know, in a preschool room of does everybody know where the scissors go? After we take out the scissors? Do we know where they belong? And we can introduce it and say like, look, we're gonna talk about where the scissors go. So we don't know this yet, then we explain it. And we're now we sort of know it. But can we put it into practice. And then as your students start to build that routine, then they say like, and then you're like, wow, everybody knows where the scissors go, we're all the way over here, we can move on to a new goal now. And just the way that you can break that apart to be, you know, so complex, but also so simple. Is is just I love, you know, that kind of a tool. And then I have a great story with a fourth grader who I was coaching, one on one coaching. And I found out after months of us working together that he would go into school the next day and tell his teacher, the practices that we would talk about during our sessions. And DK DK was one of their favorites, his and his teachers. And I just had to jump in. I was like I didn't even know you were talking about this, but you could tell that it mattered to him and then he was like, Oh, my teacher uses this all the time now. And so it's

Hannah Choi 25:01

just great. He was your first he was your first brain tracks, and

Allison Larthey 25:05

he didn't even know.

Hannah Choi 25:08

Yes, spreading the

Allison Larthey 25:09

word of like he really did just like, take it into the classroom, which was so fun, because he got to be the owner of that of like, look at this, like, Yeah, we're gonna do this. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 25:18

that's so great. I love that.

Susan Lohman 25:22

I think it's also worth mentioning that any of these tools collectively using them as a class makes them more powerful. Even the even the teachers using them in the moment, it makes it a community effort, rather than something that I'm giving you, the students to do. I had a when I was a instructional coach, I had a teacher that wrote all the papers alongside with the students. So this was a middle school class. And she wanted to show them that she modeled for them, but she also showed them the writing process. By joining them showing her paper, she joined in just like another student. And I think there's some really great value in that with all of these tools, using them collectively together.

Hannah Choi 26:10

And it also, it also make sure that anyone who likes, okay, so there's going to be some students in the classroom that really, really benefit from it, and really, really need it. And then other kids who could probably get by without it, but when you teach it to everybody, and it's just this is just what we do, then everyone gets to benefit it benefit from it in a way that doesn't feel like isolating for one person or like, Oh, you're different. You're you have ADHD. So you need this. This is something that, yeah, this is something that everybody can benefit from. Well, and that

Susan Lohman 26:51

yeah, I love that to Hannah, and even on it on a nother level is teachers in other classrooms or other content areas using the tools as well, students are able to use the tool in one classroom, and maybe go to another and use the same tool and a slightly different way. You know, it brings and it just circle.

Hannah Choi 27:13

Yeah, and I imagine it just becomes part of the vernacular, we just talk about this, this is just what we do. We all do DK decays, or we all use five minute goals. And when it's consistent, like I mean, we know that in coaching, right? When it's when you're consistent, that's when the magic happens. So the consistency across classrooms, I'm sure it would make a really huge difference.

Susan Lohman 27:35

Well, and Hannah to even outside of the school, in our brain tracks program, we work with families too, because we do want that language, you want those tools, we want that entire ecosystem that supports the child's learning to be consistently using the language, the tools, the approaches. And so we do work with families and families are the trainings with the families are very well attended, because they they want the knowledge, right, they want to be able to support their child in school, but also out of school.

Hannah Choi 28:10

And I bet some of the parents find themselves thinking, Oh, this is actually something that would be helpful for me as well, then if they use it, they can then model for their kid at home so severely, kids are getting the reinforcement dma's I love that.

Susan Lohman 28:24

It's smart goals is one of the tools that we use a lot with families, we encourage them to write them with their children. So everyone's working towards the same goal. It could be something as simple as you know, reading 30 minutes a day that everyone's doing it or it could be around. household things like sorting, doing the laundry, putting it away, but it's goals that the family is collectively working on. So it doesn't again, feel like we're pointing at the student you need this. It's like no, we all need this. So the house, the house works systematically, just like the classroom work systematically.

Hannah Choi 29:06

Yeah, and then if everybody feels supported, then they're more likely to use the tool because they feel like, Oh, I'm not the only one that's doing this, right.

Allison Larthey 29:17

And we hear that all the time, from the parent workshops from you know, even when teachers are in the workshops, it's like, Oh, I could use this with my own kids. And you know, and then parents are like, I could use this myself. And you know, that's, that's a fun thing is that they really are universal strategies and tools that we're practicing.

Hannah Choi 29:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I just as a coach, I have learned so many strategies that I've taught my clients and then that way to us, this is absolutely something that I would benefit from. So yeah, it is such a great way to to learn about ourselves and how we can support ourselves to then be better parents, better teachers, better coaches. So, yeah, I love that. So all this talk about, you know about making this universal support, it makes me think about, I mean, that's kind of why you guys got into brain tracks, right? Like, why, why that the idea of brain tracks came out? Can you explain a little bit about that?

Susan Lohman 30:19

Sure. So I'm going to just step back to my instructional coaching days, and when I was seeing very similar struggles in a variety of classrooms, a variety of ages, or classrooms, working with my one on one clients, in my mind, I was thinking, Wow, a school program would be so helpful. And I was thinking like, how, how could this work in schools, public, private, online schools, not knowing Michael was thinking the same thing. So, you know, coming together, you know, was the evolution of BrainTracks, but the idea was to take the similar support that our one to one coaching clients receive, and make those accessible and affordable for all students, and all schools and all states, across the US. So allowing, or providing, I should say, providing those strategies, the tools, the insight, the knowledge, the language, all of that to students, through teachers, you know, allows us to make a much greater impact than we already are through our coaching program.

Hannah Choi 31:39

That's great. I mean, that's a big reason why I wanted to do this podcast was to, you know, be able to teach as many people as I can about executive function skills, and, and that and getting access to, to that does not have to be something that only, you know, some people get to do, and it's ever everyone in the world would benefit from learning about it. And so...

Susan Lohman 32:06

Absolutely, and when you when you live it, and you love it, and you know that it is so impactful, you do want to share it with everyone, it's like you hold this secret sauce that you do want to share.

Hannah Choi 32:20

Yeah, I'm going to be doing a presentation at our elementary school about executive function skills. And, and one of the parents, you know, was asking me about it, and when I told her, Well, I just really love it. And I and I want everyone to know what this word executive function means and see how they can benefit from learning. And, and, and she was just so excited, and it felt so good to, to see that the impact, it is so important for people to learn about it.

Susan Lohman 32:54

When we begin working with teachers, part of our first training around the developing brain, you know, basic overview of how EF skills develop. Part of it is a it's a, it's a self assessment, they can take, it's private, they have the knowledge, but it allows them to recognize what the executive function skills are and what they look like, in life. And they will be able to see where they're really strong and where they might struggle. That way they can look in their classroom, they can look at their students and make a connection through themselves

Hannah Choi 33:35

Yeah, when you are able to learn about it yourself. And then you can bring that knowledge and understanding to your children or your classroom or whatever. So when you work with teachers, how do you? Like? How, how do you? How do teachers see their own executive function skills? Are they confident in areas that they are talking about it? Are they is it something that they're kind of expected to have these perfect executive function skills? Because they're teachers?

Susan Lohman 34:11

I don't I honestly and Alison, you can feel free to chime in. I honestly don't think so. Because part of our work is to normalize it. So in the education of executive function skills, normalizing that everyone has strengths that they're naturally, really good at, it feels good to be strong in those skills and the ones they struggle at. Or maybe they struggle with certain skills in certain parts of their life. But normalizing that, and you know, also being really transparent that we use these tools right now do we use those with our, our teachers and our clients and our own kids, we use them too. And we use them because they know they really work and they really do help you

Allison Larthey 35:01

Yeah, and I would say, I think, you know, I think teachers do carry that burden of having to be the perfect at everything situation of, you know, like, I shouldn't have any weaknesses because I have to be everything for everybody. But right, that's one of the hardest things is, whenever I was trying to do things for my students, when I was regulating for them taking notes for them, making, you know, learning for them, it was harder for me as the teacher, because my students weren't benefiting from it, and I was carrying a lot more weight than is, you know, necessary or useful to anybody. So when I did things with my students, alongside them, modeling it, over, you know, supporting them, it was just more authentic, and it was beneficial for, for them. And for me, that I didn't have to carry the weight of being everything for everybody. I could just be me. And then all of the, you know, all the strengths and weaknesses that come with that. And I think that that's important for teachers to know of that, you know, we don't have to do everything for our students, we don't have to make the study guides for them. We don't have to write the notes for them. And we're doing our students disservice when we do that. We want to bring our students in and have them take ownership of the practice of why would I write this word and not this word? Why did that? Why will that help me remember it later? And what do I really have to study? And how do I break down the material that I've learned, and we can do that even from the youngest age with a spelling list of you know, these are my sight words that I have to I have to know how to spell these. So am I aware of that I know how to spell it or that I don't know how to spell it. And if I'm carrying that weight is the teacher, then my students don't take any ownership over that process. So it's good for us to recognize as teachers that we don't have to carry everything on our shoulders all of the time, we can, we can do it with our students and, and that's a huge benefit to them. And to us at the same time, .

Susan Lohman 37:26

I worked with a teacher and she had the most beautiful relationship with her students. She was teaching sixth grade, and it was her first year in the school. And she was she was doing exactly what Alison just suggested. She said to them, as you know, I'm brand new and your school, you already experts on your school, I'm the expert on ELA, she was an ELA teacher. And so I want us to have a partnership, I'm going to ask you for help, because I don't know everything about your school, you all know what you've been here for years. And you can then ask me for help on writing papers in your reading. And, and it was so beautiful, because she let that go, she let that I have to do everything, I have to carry the burden. And she really had built a very trusting, respectful loving relationship with their students, so that they could work together and support each other, it was just so fabulous.

Hannah Choi 38:33

I love that. It's so funny because I was I have a terrible memory. So I had to write a little note down. And what I wrote down was asking for help. And that's what I wanted to say is, is the gift that we can give our students and our clients and ourselves is learning how to ask for help. And learning about executive function skills, we don't have to do it all on our own. So like, you know, something like BrainTracks is a way to support ourselves, our executive function skills and our kids without having to like do all the research ourselves without having to also take that on, like, Okay, I want to learn about executive function skills so that I can really support my kids and make my classroom this really, you know, comfortable place to teach and learn. But you don't also have to do that you can reach out to the experts. And, and I think we think of that. So, so speaking of like, what's been the reaction of the teachers in the schools that you've worked with on once they're open to the idea of bringing the BrainTracks team

Allison Larthey 39:43

It's been really fun. It's great to be in the workshops and hearing immediately. This is how I'm going to use this. And during one of our parent workshops, a parent said, you know, right away like, Oh, this is what my son was talking about. because we had already done this school workshop with the students, and she was like, that's why he's breathing like this all of a sudden at home, he's like, taking these breaths and, and calming himself down. And she's like, that's what he's been doing. So it's really fun to see that transfer, you know, immediately there's that like excitement about, you know, oh, I know how I'm gonna use this tomorrow.

Susan Lohman 40:24

That's really cool. Yeah, and I was gonna say, too, I think that wouldn't begin begin working with schools, they recognize the skills are for immediate use, but they're also long term, what we're sharing in the knowledge that we're teaching and training extends way beyond a student's person's life as a student. And I, we worked with the school with their teachers several times, and now I'm working one on one with their instructional coach, and she was, is so excited because the teachers are using the language, they're using the tools, students are becoming more independent. And, you know, classroom struggles are slowly dissipating. And they are just thrilled that you know, us presenting this content in a manageable way in a realistic illogical way that teachers can use it without a heavy lift of changing, really what they're doing, just adjusting it slightly has such great rewards. It just feels really good from being a teacher and being in classrooms, it feels so feels so great for us to see them making such great strides.

Hannah Choi 41:44

That's wonderful. And I just had that conversation with a client of mine who's in college and, and she struggles with keeping her her room clean. And so we're going to spend some time working on figuring out a system for that. And I said, you know, what is so cool about this, like, we're practicing this skill on your, your room in your college apartment. But I just like when you're at you're like, Nope, I have to, you know, follow this system that I developed, you know, like, 60 years ago with that coach called Hannah. And, and it is it's, it's it's a gift for life. Yeah, absolutely.

Susan Lohman 42:22

For sure. For sure. And the great, the greatest thing is when you see someone we've worked with sharing that gift with someone else, or teaching someone else, the tools, it's such a great feeling.

Hannah Choi 42:35

Yep. Yeah. And that goes back to, you know, like what we were talking before about how, how can we help as many people as possible, and that is one way we can is by teaching people and hopefully they'll see the deep, deep and generalizable benefits of doing of doing that of doing that work? And then and then teaching it to someone else? Yeah, great. Anything else you guys would like to add? Anything you're excited about?

Allison Larthey 43:10

I'm excited about our open office hours for the teachers that we work with. And that's where they can follow up with us and ask those questions of like, you know, we did the workshop, they've tried some things out. And then they get to dive in a little bit deeper and say, This is what's working. This is not working. How do I you know, it's just this and that I'm really, really excited about?

Hannah Choi 43:34

Yeah, and are they when they access those office hours? Are they accessing them with teachers from other schools as well? Or just their school?

Susan Lohman 43:43

Hannah, that's a great question. We haven't set up both ways. If a school prefers to be just have their own time set aside, otherwise, their general that any teacher can can pop in and out, or they can pop in and listen and maybe get some information that they hadn't even hadn't even considered. So something that's really cool. Yeah, something I'm really excited about is our online training modules are up and running and ready to go. They are we're really created to accommodate schools, very tight schedules. So the trainings that we present live on Zoom are also can be taken by teachers on an LMS on a platform, which is so exciting. I'm very excited about that.

Hannah Choi 44:37

So they can do it at their own pace.

Susan Lohman 44:39

They can do it at their own pace, they can use it go back and review they can use it for if they want to take part of the trainings via zoom with us and they want to take the other part. So it really allows flexibility. The I would say the one of the challenges with working with schools. It's It's not the funding, it's not the the actual executive function training. It actually is working it into the calendar, the school calendars if they're tight. And that time is allocated about a year out. So the online modules give some flexibility with that.

Hannah Choi 45:20

And then are teachers able to earn continuing education credits from that as well?

Susan Lohman 45:26

Yep, absolutely. So that's another huge win. Yes.

Hannah Choi 45:30

That's great. I love it. And I love that name brain tracks, such a great name, your idea of like laying down these, like, the neural network and the train going through your brain. I love it. That's how it works. Very cool. Well, I was very lucky. I got to I got to talk with Michael Delman are the CEO and founder of beyond booksmart. back last year, and he told me a little bit about about it, and at the time, it hadn't been named. And so it's, it's pretty cool to see it, to see Yeah, really come to fruition. And to really see that you for you guys to really start to see the benefit of of all the work. Yeah, for sure. Congratulations.

Susan Lohman 46:14

Thank you, Hannah. Thank you so much.

Hannah Choi 46:16

Yeah. It's so fun to talk about this. Yeah, I'm so glad you guys were able to join me. It's, it's, it's a it's wonderful to hear that more people are getting access to the stuff that we know, is life changing? And could you share with our listeners where they can find out more?

Susan Lohman 46:36

Absolutely. So they can go to braintracks.com and log into our website, all kinds of great information there. There's also information that they can download and take to their school leaders if they want to share our information. If they have specific questions, they can reserve a time on our calendar directly from the website, or they can email us at info at brain tracks.com.

Hannah Choi 47:05

I love how accessible the website is it's so easy to read. And it's really easy on the great website. And it's packed full of information. And I also love how, how open and available you are for anyone to find out more information. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. It was really great to talk to you guys.

Susan Lohman 47:29

Thanks. Thank you so much, Hannah. Our pleasure.

Hannah Choi 47:33

And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation about executive function skills for teachers and kids. If you're curious about any of the tools we talked about today, check out the show notes for some more information. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share this episode with the teachers in your life. I hope they find something in it that makes their teaching experience even more rewarding. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Although each and every Executive Function skill is essential for success in today’s world, one that’s too often-overlooked (if not forgotten entirely) is cognitive flexibility. Whether you’ve heard about this skill or not, cognitive flexibility is critical for adapting to difficult situations and just overall feeling like we have control over our lives. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode, so here we are! I’m going to show you why it’s so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own and of the kids in our lives. If you’re dying for more information about this after you’re done listening, check out the show notes below:

Learn More About Cognitive Flexibility

Demystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscience

Flexible Thinking Problems in Kids | Understood

Kids Use Flexible Thinking to Learn | Executive Functioning Skills | Understood

Improve your Cognitive Flexibility Skills

What is Flexible Thinking? How to Become a Flexible Thinker

Circle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in Action

The Importance of Taking the Perspective of Others

Meditation, mindfulness and cognitive flexibility

3 Ways to Improve Your Cognitive Flexibility

Cognitive Flexibility Resources from the Beyond BookSmart Blog

2 Executive Function Skills to Help Parents Beat Back to School Stress

Grit + Executive Function skills = Academic Success

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:00

Have you heard of cognitive flexibility?

Hannah's Daughter 00:02

Oh, yeah.

Hannah Choi 00:03

Why??

Hannah's Daughter 00:04

Every day! Cuz I have you as a mom!

Hannah Choi 00:08

So what's cognitive flexibility?

Hannah's Daughter 00:09

It's when you have to change the way you're thinking to get something to work.

Hannah Choi 00:14

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. As you may have gathered from what you just heard, I'm tackling the topic of cognitive flexibility, or flexible thinking in today's episode. That was my daughter, giving you a little insight into what it's like having an executive function coach for a mom. In Episode 19, Dr. Lisa Shulman, and I talked about the impact of grief and emotional trauma on our executive functioning. And she and I agreed that the often overlooked executive function skill of cognitive flexibility is critical for feeling like we have control over our lives and being successful in making positive changes for ourselves. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode. So here we are, I'm going to show you why it's so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own, and of the kids in our lives. If you're dying for more information about this, after you're done listening, check out the show notes.

Hannah Choi 00:17

All right, so let's get into this. What is this cognitive flexibility? It is the ability of your brain to switch from one task to another, one situation to another, and to be able to think about things in a new way, by switching from one set of ideas to another. Being able to think flexibly comes in handy in many, many aspects of our daily lives. You heard my daughter say that it can be used to help you problem solve. And here are some other ways we might use it. Okay, so you know, when you find out there's a new and pretty major update to an app you've always used, you now need to use a different set of steps to complete the same task as before. That's cognitive flexibility. If you are a kindergarten teacher, and you're talking with your students about kindergarten, new things, and then your school principal comes into the classroom, you use cognitive flexibility to talk with the principal in a different way than you are just talking with your students. If the way that you studied in high school, or kept track of your homework assignments does not seem to be working as well in college, you'll need to use cognitive flexibility to figure out a new system. And one more because I'm not kidding, cognitive flexibility really does come in handy in all aspects of our lives. Okay, so you're sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving and your uncle who has completely opposite political views than you is praising a politician you dislike, Being able to defend and explain your point of view, while also seeing and at least trying to understand how he could believe what he believes, that requires cognitive flexibility. And some patience. My son, who plays the violin in a fifth grade townwide orchestra shared how he used cognitive flexibility the other day.

Hannah Choi 03:28

Can you think of an example of how you use cognitive flexibility today?

Hannah's Son 03:33

Well, today after school, I had orchestra practice, when I had realized that my music which is in my backpack, we had dropped it off at home, so I didn't have my music. So I was like, oh, no, I don't have my music. But then I realized that I could easily use my stand partners music, and everything would be okay.

Hannah Choi 03:53

Yeah, so your flexible thinking cognitive flexibility helps you relax and realize it's gonna be fine.

Hannah's Son 03:58

Yeah.

Hannah Choi 03:59

Great. I'm so glad that you thought of that. Did you feel better after you thought of it?

Hannah's Son 04:03

Yeah.

Hannah Choi 04:04

Oh, good. Okay, so we can see that cognitive flexibility is helpful in our day to day lives. But are there long-term benefits to being cognitively flexible? Studies have found that greater cognitive flexibility is associated with favorable outcomes throughout our lives, such as better reading abilities and childhood, higher resilience to negative life events and stress in adulthood, higher levels of creativity in adulthood, and better quality of life in older individuals.

Hannah Choi 04:37

Cognitive flexibility does not work on its own. It happens in our brains with the help of some other partner ie if skills, attention, we need to pay attention to what we're doing and also notice what has changed what you were doing before, what you need to do now and how they're different. Working memory, we need to remember the new rules or the new actions that have been created for whatever task needs to be completed. And this could be in school, at work or in our homes. Self-regulation, we need to be able to inhibit or stop doing what we used to do, and now do the new thing. And also being able to regulate our emotions when we're switching to a new way is helpful. Planning and prioritizing skills can help too, we can use them to figure out the best order of the new steps that we'll have to take and see the value in prioritizing the new way of doing things over the old way. And our good old friend metacognition plays a big part in it to being able to understand our own thinking can really help us change it. Cognitive flexibility becomes largely mature by the age of 10. But these skills continue to improve throughout adolescence and into adulthood. And like all the other executive function skills, they reached their peak between the ages of 21 and 30. But as we know, everyone varies and where their strengths and challenges are.

Hannah Choi 06:06

We hear idioms and phrases in everyday language that reference cognitive flexibility. People may say they used mental gymnastics to figure something out, or that they need to wrap their head around something. We also hear references to the idea of cognitive inflexibility or rigid thinking. The idea is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks and describing someone as stuck in the mud. You might be familiar with this rigid thinking as showing up as stubbornness or strong willpower, no anybody like that. If you or your child struggle with cognitive flexibility, you might see or experience things like having trouble understanding others perspectives, arguing the same point over and over, getting anxious when plans change, struggling to take on new and more complicated tasks, or maybe having trouble switching from one activity to another, or getting upset when others don't follow the rules. At times, even as adults we struggle with thinking flexibly. And this doesn't mean that we haven't matured into our fully flexible prefrontal cortexes. Sometimes we just don't want to be flexible, sometimes it feels easier to keep things as they were, because it requires effort, a new way of thinking, changing the way we've done something or admitting that maybe the way that we've done something is not necessarily the best for us, or the situation. It requires us to use all those related EF skills that I mentioned earlier. And this is a lot of work. And it also requires some level of risk taking. If we take the risk of thinking about doing something another way, we might accidentally come up with a new idea that could possibly work, which we'll then have to try to see if it does. And for some people trying new things. And taking those risks thinking differently, can be a little uncomfortable. I notice for me sometimes, especially when I think it's going to be hard.

Hannah Choi 08:03

One thing that can make it a little easier is having someone along for the ride. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for you, I suggest finding someone who can support you, meeting you exactly where you are, I believe it can really, really helped to make those uncomfortable new decisions a little easier. And sometimes give you that gentle push, you need to get out of your own way. This person could be a friend, a colleague, a teacher, a sibling, or parent, or an executive function coach or a life coach. We can ask for advice or hear shared experiences, run our new ideas by them or brainstorm some when we're having trouble thinking of any. We can also ask them to provide feedback and some accountability. This makes me think about something that my former client Andrew shared with me, you might remember him from our ADHD Awareness Month episode,

Hannah's Son 08:53

What you said about having somebody on your side, the value of that in and of itself cannot be overstated. That was one of the most meaningful parts of coaching was just knowing that I could show up as I am. And you met me exactly where I was. There was no expectation that I was supposed to be anything other than what I was at that moment in time. And we were going to meet there. And then we were going to figure out where we wanted to go. And then we would make some plans to get there.

Hannah Choi 09:30

So basically, I'm saying that making positive changes to our habits and in our lives often is hard. So having some confidence to do this, to take these risks can really help. In order to find that confidence. We must find things that truly work for us. To find these things. We must be able to use our cognitive flexibility access it to imagine that things can even be done differently than we're currently doing them. And we don't have to do this hard work alone. Let's all make sure we've got got someone to support us.

Hannah Choi 10:01

In addition to making changes to how we do things, cognitive flexibility can help us in other major areas of our lives. It helps with resolving conflict by helping us be able to see other people's perspectives, remember the uncle at the Thanksgiving table, and figure out how to compromise by imagining a solution to a common goal. This compromised solution may require giving up some of our own desires. But cognitive flexibility helps us to see how even without the desires that we had to sacrifice, we can still reach some kind of agreement. Cognitive flexibility also helps us cope with major changes and stressors by giving us the powerful tool of self-efficacy. Self-efficacy is the ability to feel like we have control over our lives and our choices. When we're in the middle of a major life change, such as a divorce, or the loss of a spouse or a major cross country move, feeling like we have some control makes a huge difference. When thinking flexibly comes easily to you, it can make all of these changes much easier to handle. Dr. Shulman shared some great ideas about this. So if you haven't listened to the conversation yet, highly recommend checking it out.

Hannah Choi 11:20

Okay, so we now know what cognitive flexibility is, we know what the related EF skills are that support our ability to think flexibly. And we've learned how cognitive flexibility can support us in various aspects of our lives. But how do we get better at it? How can we reinforce the development of those skills in ourselves, and if we have kids in our lives, in them, too. I think the first thing we can do is try to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves. It's much easier to access our own flexible thinking when our own needs have been met as much as possible. And I know that this is asking a lot. We have a billion daily challenges, frustrations, limitations, that can make it difficult for us to put on our own oxygen masks, nevermind the masks of those in our care. But at least thinking about this and attempting to address some or even just one of our own self care needs first can help.

Hannah Choi 12:22

Also, learning about cognitive flexibility is super important. So yay for you for listening to this episode. It can really help to understand that all people, including ourselves, are at their own personal level of ability to think flexibly and make change. As Andrew said, it truly is helpful having someone supporting you through who understands how you feel about making changes, and how much flexibility you are able to access at the time. By understanding the differences in people's abilities, it is easier to meet them where they are in their readiness to think flexibly. And working on our own cognitive flexibility can help ease friction between ourselves and other people in our lives. Whatever age they are, and whatever relationship we have with them. Even as an EF coach, I find that I still need to practice this. I have a client who's a freshman in college, and I was having trouble understanding why he did not want to put specific times to study on his calendar. When I asked him to explain his thinking to me, he shared that he's learned that if he does schedule it, and then let it slide even just once. It's like a slippery slope, and then he'll start letting the other things slide too. For me, this is not the way I work. I love scheduling work time, I had to think flexibly to understand his perspective. This kind of stuff happens all the time with my own kids too. But by having that conversation, figuring out the difference and thinking and working together to understand each other's perspectives, it can make a big difference. And in and also reduce some of that friction and frustration that we feel when we butt heads with our kids. You might argue back that my client should use cognitive flexibility to try out my way of scheduling his study times. But he knows himself, he knows that it won't work. So I needed to give him the autonomy and the space to make that decision to do it his way. If he did not know himself so well and just didn't want to try it. I might have encouraged him to at least just try it once and see how it felt. But ultimately, it would be up to him. His own flexible thinking will develop on his own timeline.

Hannah Choi 14:38

There are a lot of activities and tools that are helpful for practicing flexible thinking. I'll share some here but check out the show notes for more ideas. As we coaches always say to our clients, when you're trying something new, start small. Maybe if you always cook the same few meals, you could try a new recipe. You could try driving it Different way to work or a new route on your morning run. This reminds me of the conversation I had with Rachel Holstein low in Episode 12. We talked about how you can practice mindfulness by doing something in a different way than you usually and automatically do. So you could brush your teeth with your other hand, or dry yourself off with a towel in a different order than you normally do. The practice of mindfulness has been shown in studies to help in many ways, including improving your attention and your ability to think flexibly.

Hannah Choi 15:32

A tool that I really like to use is called zooming out, or the 30,000 foot view. This tool works by challenging yourself to look at a situation from different perspectives. For example, my daughter was feeling really stressed out by an upcoming math midterm exam. Because she was in it and feeling completely overwhelmed. I tried to support her cognitive flexibility by encouraging her to zoom out to the day of the test and imagine how she'll feel. Then I asked her to consider how she'd feel if she zoomed out even more to the week after the test. And then to this coming summer, and then even more to when she's graduating from high school. This exercise helped her get out of her current state of thinking, and helped her see that yes, in this moment, it feels like everything. But truly, it's just a blip a fraction of her life.

Hannah Choi 16:31

Another thing that can be helpful for supporting cognitive flexibility is the concept of a growth mindset. A growth mindset is a belief that intelligence and our abilities are not fixed, that we can change, we can learn we can grow as humans, especially when we learn to think flexibly and find out what areas we are strong in and what areas might need some extra support, and what areas maybe we should completely avoid. I may have wanted to be a doctor growing up, but memory and word recall are not my strong points. So being a doctor would probably not have been the best career choice for me.

Hannah Choi 17:11

There is a great activity that supports the development of cognitive flexibility from Stephen Covey called the Circles of Concern, Influence and Control. Okay, so if you can imagine a target with three concentric circles, the outer circle represents things you are concerned about. The middle circle are the things you have some influence over. And the small center circle represents the things you actually have control over. thinking flexibly here helps you figure out where the various aspects of your life fit into this target. During the lockdowns or the pandemic, you might have placed the spread of COVID 19 as something that concerned you, but you had no true influence or control over it at all. If you worked from home, you would have had some influence over your workspace by setting up a nice desk in a separate area of the house. But you would not have been able to control any potential interruptions completely. Washing your hands frequently. And wearing a mask when you went out for groceries could go in the middle circle as something that you could control. Learning to be flexible in your thinking here can ease some of the anxiety and pressure we may feel when we're trying to control things that we actually only have influence on or perhaps cannot control at all.

Hannah Choi 18:38

For younger kids, you could play a divergent thinking game, find objects around the house and think of things that the objects could be other than what they truly are. This cup is not a cup. It's a swimming pool for a fairy. This pencil is not a pencil. It's a balance beam for the caterpillar Olympics. And that tree is not a tree. It's a portal to another world.

Hannah Choi 19:04

And that's our show for today. I hope you are able to find your portal to a new world of possibilities using your newfound or more developed cognitive flexibility skills. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others to learn about executive function skills such as cognitive flexibility. By sharing our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world?

To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.

Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.

Learn More About Dr. Sussman

Dr. Sussman's Website on Trainings

The Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use Disorders

Dr. Sussman’s YouTube Channel

The Ross Center

Screen Use & Executive Function Skills

Beyond BookSmart’s collaboration with Dr. Sussman

Screenagers by Delaney Ruston

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:00

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Hannah Choi 00:00

Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis.

Hannah Choi 00:00

I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show.

Hannah Choi 00:00

Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17

Thanks for having me.

Hannah Choi 02:18

Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21

Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.

Hannah Choi 02:42

Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57

Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.

Hannah Choi 06:16

That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43

Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.

Hannah Choi 08:14

We don't want that to happen.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16

So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.

Hannah Choi 09:43

Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49

Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.

Hannah Choi 09:52

Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54

So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.

Hannah Choi 10:31

Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!

Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03

And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you know

Hannah Choi 11:11

Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...

Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36

Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.

Hannah Choi 12:39

Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04

And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.

Hannah Choi 13:48

Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04

Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.

Hannah Choi 16:47

Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25

Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?

Hannah Choi 19:36

Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04

You were doing low dopamine screen actors,

Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06

Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!

Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08

You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.

Hannah Choi 24:02

Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16

Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 25:10

Yeah, you get half an hour more.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.

Hannah Choi 25:19

And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35

Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,

Hannah Choi 27:24

you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27

Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?

Hannah Choi 27:50

Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55

You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.

Hannah Choi 28:02

Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.

Hannah Choi 29:14

Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42

Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.

Hannah Choi 31:11

Yeah, right, that same action.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14

Like mice.

Hannah Choi 31:17

We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33

Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you know

Hannah Choi 31:35

No, no.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36

I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.

Hannah Choi 32:02

Bringing us back to gambling!

Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03

Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.

Hannah Choi 32:19

This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26

Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.

Hannah Choi 32:32

So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53

Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.

Hannah Choi 34:14

Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02

And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.

Hannah Choi 35:14

Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15

I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.

Hannah Choi 36:25

Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58

Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.

Hannah Choi 37:11

I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49

Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 39:01

that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,

Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28

Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?

Hannah Choi 41:21

And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34

Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internet

Hannah Choi 42:47

With a natural limitation on the

Dr. Cliff Sussman 42:49

Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.

Hannah Choi 43:29

Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?

Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51

Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.

Hannah Choi 44:06

Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39

Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.

Hannah Choi 44:56

Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks.

Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48

Thank you. Bye, bye.

Hannah Choi 45:50

And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.