We’re back! Didya miss me? I missed you all and it's so great to be back with new episodes of the podcast. As this new season of Focus Forward begins, I’m diving right in to tackle the difficult subject of transitions, its impact on personal growth, and what can be done to better cope. To inform this conversation, I invited Rachel Hulstein-Lowe, a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you are listening to this episode months after school has started or you are not even a parent or caregiver of children, don’t worry because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time, by anyone, in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. While the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.

Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation

Learn more about Rachel Hulstein-Lowe.

Learn more about Lisa Damour.

Mindfulness Resources

Getting started with mindfulness

Smiling Mind App

The impact of the pandemic on children

The Stolen Year by Anya Kamenetz

Effects of COVID-19 pandemic on mental health of children and adolescents: A systematic review of survey studies

Snapshot of pandemic’s mental health impact on children

Back to School Support

Back to School Anxiety

Student Stress: Untangling the Anxiety & Executive Function Connection

Exhausted by the School Year (already)? How to Get Back on Track

Can You Help My Anxious Kid?

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, and we're back. Did you miss me? I miss you. And I am so excited to be back in the podcast Oh sphere. Okay. I think I may have just invented that word. But I'm going with it. We took two months off from dropping new episodes, and boy did it fly by. If you ever catch yourself saying two months is a nice long amount of time. Stop yourself right there. Because that is a lie. Two months is basically two seconds, so you better get going right away. If you want to accomplish anything in that amount of time. Well, I guess first, you could listen to episode 11 In our first season, which was all about procrastination, and how to make it a little easier to get going. But once you're done with that, get off your butt and get going. Would you believe me when I say that that's only the first time you'll hear me say "butt" in this episode?

Hannah Choi 01:15

As this new season of focus forward begins. I'm diving right in to tackle some tough stuff with Rachel Holstein-Lowe, who is a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you're listening to this episode, months after school has started or you're not even a parent or a caregiver of children, don't change the channel, because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time by anyone in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. And we also touched upon both how to talk with our kids and support ourselves when incomprehensibly sad and complicated situations are happening in our country and in the world. And while the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.

Hannah Choi 02:16

Alright. Well. Hi, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:20

Oh, thank you, Hannah. It's really nice to be here. I'm really glad we were able to come together.

Hannah Choi 02:26

Me too. It took us a while we had starts and stops there my family with COVID. And there was summer traveling. But yes, it happened.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:35

Yes, I'm glad we persevered.

Hannah Choi 02:38

Well, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:41

Sure. So I'm Rachel Holstein-Lowe and I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. I'm based in the Metro West Boston area, and I have a private practice there. I've been in private practice for 12 years here. But I've been a clinician for nearly 20 years. And I work with a lot of kids and teens and their parents around all kinds of issues, executive functioning being one of many. And certainly that's that that cluster of skills is so impacted by kind of what whatever else is going on, in a young person's life that I think honestly, probably any client, I see kid and adult, like we're talking about those things, whether or not we're using that language,

Hannah Choi 03:33

right? There's something that you said made me just think about, like the why they're called executive function skills, right. They're just skills that help us execute our day. And so it makes sense that they're tied up with everything. And, and like you said, Me, you might not use that language, but learning how our mental health impacts our executive function skills, and vice versa, is such a valuable skill. And I love that more and more conversations are being had around executive function. And more and more people are learning those words and what that means and how important they are. And it's not just, you know, organization and time management, it's the emotions that are involved with how you feel when you are disorganized, or when you can't manage your time, or how you feel when you figure out how to get organized and how to maintain that organization and how to like if you finally figure out a way to not forget to go to appointments or you finally get to your appointments on time. How what a huge impact that has on your how you feel about yourself. Yeah. That that, that I love how that you said that it comes up in their conversations and yet you recognize as a practitioner, that that is what's that is what's being talked about whether you use those words

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 04:55

I think there's a kind of a growing awareness that these aren't things that we Just have right there skills that we have to develop and work at. And similarly, and I think also going what what societally speaking is that we're, we're increasingly aware that there's not that the mind and the body are actually connected. And not right, the mind isn't just being transported by the body. So I feel like that there's a growing awareness and understanding about about that, that allows for us to have a different kind of conversation and a different way of working.

Hannah Choi 05:35

Yeah, well, yeah. Similarly, I find, I see a look of almost relief, I would say, on my clients, when I explain, or when we talk about how the brain is causing the challenges that that they that they're having. And so I feel like, I see this relief, like, oh, it's not me, it's my brain. And so like learning that connection between the brain and the body, and and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do. All comes from the brain. I don't know, for me, it really helps me understand it. And I do see like, oh, okay, so I'm not just like, bad at something. My brain, there's something going on in my brain that makes it more challenging.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 06:27

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. And also, what I see with people when they learn about how the brain works, or how and then more specifically how their own brain might be working, right it how it might be processing information, or being triggered, right? How the stress response gets triggered, like, the more they understand that the more agency, yeah, they feel like they have, like, oh, there's actually something I could do in that moment, that might not take the stressor away, but I could feel a little bit better, I can feel a little calmer, I can feel a little more, you know, capable in that moment. And and that that is really exciting to see how quickly somebody can go from a place of just being like, Oh, this is the way it's going to be to oh, oh, I can actually that actually worked. So like we do a breath technique and like, oh, well, I actually do feel different. Like I can actually send a difference in my, in my brain and in my body. And that allows me to make a different choice. And that's just I think that's, that's really exciting. That's, that's an that's an exciting part of the work right? When you see somebody unlock that

Hannah Choi 07:41

Yeah, yeah. And so that makes me think about the idea of this practice, right? So they call it like a meditation practice or a mindfulness practice. And so that means that we have to do these things over and over again, to get better at them, right. And so it makes me think of all these strategies that we use to support ourselves in areas where we might struggle, you can't just do it once, right, you can do it once and experience the benefit of that one time. But you need to do it again. And again. And it makes me think of how at the beginning of the, like, beginning of any kind of transition, any kind of change, we might feel like super organized, and we've got our like ducks in a row, like at the beginning of the school year, like Yeah, I don't know, with my my kids, right? They've, they've got their checklists, and they're, you know, and they've got their backpacks already, and they know exactly what they're going to do. And so the first week of school, they've kind of got it together, and they remember to do the things they're going to do. And then already this week, I'm seeing we started last week, and already this week, I'm seeing it starting to fall apart. And, and, and on my end to like my, my, the energy that I have to help them maintain the system that we're trying to build is challenging. So do you how do you support your your clients are just what do you recommend for people to once they start to try to set up that practice? Whatever it is practice of fill in the blank? How do you help people keep that going and not experience what I'm already experiencing? Only in week two?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 09:17

Yeah. When we're starting, like when we're kind of entering these big transition moments. I think there can be a lot of hope that kids and parents alike have about the new year and you know, we got to clean the slate and there's all this opportunity. And we're going to you're going to learn so much you're going to grow so much you're going to try new things. And that that can all be true. But there's also you know, plenty of kids and parents who are thinking, oh man, not again. Right, and are really expecting it to be hard because it has been or because they're tough. Tired, right? And just like the idea of having to like get up and go like they did, like they don't write, they don't have it. Don't feel like they have it.

Hannah Choi 10:12

Or there's or there's other situations in their life other circumstances in their life that exactly literally makes it challenging, like if they work at night or if you're stressed in some other in the financial way, or if they don't feel like they have support.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:26

Right. Yeah. Right. So I mean, I think we can, I'm both cases, we want to be looking at kind of setting some, some realistic expectations.

Hannah Choi 10:36

So what are some questions in interactions that parents can have to support their kids to get to a place of seeing situations in a more kind of realistic way?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:49

I think sometimes parents, ah, you know, we're often handicapped because we often ask the question, how was your day? And we hear crickets? Guilty? I think there's a lot of reasons for that, and understandable reasons for that. I think so sometimes I think there's there's also like, how we go about it matters a lot. How much we're asking when we're asking what we're expecting to get back. So the timing, waiting until we're in the car, that we're not right, like those and those kinds of tactics, I think of becoming more and more like people kind of get like, oh, yeah, if we're not making direct eye contact, maybe if we're just sitting next to each other in the car or on the couch, it might be an easier interaction.

Hannah Choi 11:35

Yeah, I've heard, I've heard lots of suggestions about having difficult conversations in the car. Because you as a driver are slightly distracted, you're not going to be able to be like super, super involved in the conversation. You don't have to look at each other. You can pause and pretend that you're concentrating driving when really you're like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 11:55

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can clench the wheel if need be? Yeah. The other I think it's, I think it could actually be really useful. In terms of timing, but then I think, also, as parents, you know, I have a unique position with the young people I see. And you know, you do too, and that I'm going to interact with them for at best 45 to 60 minutes a week. Yeah, yeah. And then they're going to, and then they're gonna go, they're gonna plop into my office, or I'm going to meet them virtually. And I'm, I'm gonna get some stuff, and we're gonna have a nice conversation, but they don't really they don't owe me anything beyond that. Nor do I owe them. And that's a, that's a really unique experience, I really try hard to let parents know like they, because of that they are going to share something with me that I think is fundamentally different. But the ways that parents can maybe maximize conversation is to really start to use the therapeutic models in terms of like, really starting from a place of, I want to show you that I get and understand your emotional world. Or at least, maybe I don't know all the details. And I can't pretend that I've lived that experience myself. But I know what it's like to be anxious. I know what it's like to be mad. I know what it's like to be jilted. I know what it's like to worry about a test, like I know those things. So when our kid is showing that emotion, we're joining with that. And we're starting from that place. So rath- So right, so we're really starting with a place of letting our kid know, I get that feeling state.

Hannah Choi 13:43

This, this reminds me of a conversation that I had earlier in last season of the podcast with Sherry Fleydervish, who is a therapist in the Chicago area, and she was talking about the idea of co-regulation, and how, how just even just share like, as much as you can, as a parent sharing in the emotion with your child can show them like you said, validate their feelings and can help them work through it or just, it shows them it's okay to feel this way. And to just it's okay to just sit in that feeling. And yeah, just being physically near them can help or Yeah, and then one thing that she said that, that really resonated with me is like, I I noticed, like, I don't I don't want to get it wrong when I'm interacting with my kids or my clients. Like I don't want to Well, up until I talked with her, I didn't want to get it wrong. I didn't want to. I wanted to be able to guess their emotion and get it right. And, and then so so I would hesitate to try to to try to help them figure out what they're feeling because, yeah, I didn't want to be wrong. And she said it's okay to be wrong. Yeah, because it can one it can help them. It just shows them that you're trying to connect with them. And to it can actually help them figure out what they are really feeling. Yeah. And because they can, if you guess wrong, then they can say, Oh, well, no, it's not actually that it's and then it gets them to think about Yes. Yeah. So as parents, we might be hesitant to engage with our children about emotion. In case we get it wrong, or in case, they don't want to talk about it, but maybe just showing them that we are open to talking about it, and that we have feelings, too. Must be very validating for kids

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 15:34

Absolutely. I think it I think all of us are looking for that sense of being seen and heard. And when we really experienced that, that there's it can't be beat. Right? Regardless, regardless of age, but we are we're so hungry to be seen and heard. And understood. Yeah, we really want it all we really want to be known. We want to be known. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 15:57

You just see people's reactions. Like sometimes you see a silly meme. And, and, and then and oftentimes people's response is "I feel seen". One was like, you know, I use my microwave as my as my coffee storage. And I was just like, Yeah, me too. That's where I keep my tea.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:16

Love it. Yes. Yes, exactly.

Hannah Choi 16:20

Yeah. So no matter what it is, it does feel good to be seen, and how, what a great opportunity to enrich your relationship with your child.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:30

And I think what often happens if we don't feel validated and known and understood, if our kid doesn't? Then they're gonna keep throwing things out? To try to get you to get it. Yeah. And what that typically looks like, is dysregulation and protest and resistance, right? That's how we experience it. But I think what they're actually trying to communicate is, can you could you please see me see me? See me? Yeah. And once we see them, we what we tend to see more often than not, is that really drops down. And then we can then we can have a conversation about well, what, what happened? And what do you want to do next? Yeah. And is there a way? Is there a way for me as your parent to do to be a part of that? Or is it more that you just needed me to know this is going on?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:25

And that's a great question to ask.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:26

And it sucks, right? I can't do anything. And I'm here for you. I think the our older, right, as our kids get older, our role more and more, really, is to take more of a backseat and allow them to try things and probably not always do it correctly. But to say I got your back here, no matter what. And, you know, you can go out and try those things and come back and tell me about them. And try again, you know, that's, that's, that's what we that's what we hope for. That is not an easy task as a parent. No, that's really, it can be excruciating.

Hannah Choi 18:08

And also, I feel like, you know, as when our kids are little we can, the things that we do for them are very tangible, right? Like we get we fill their cereal bowl with milk. Yeah, you're hungry. I'll pour the milk for you. You've grown out of your clothes. Here's some new clothes that fit. Yeah. But then as they get older, that connecting with someone emotionally is not like a thing you can hold. It's not, you know, it's not milk you can pour. And so it's a I imagine, I know for myself, but I imagine for the people that transition from helping in a real tangible way to helping in just like a sort of invisible support ways is different. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to back off like that.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 18:54

It is. It is it is I think, particularly as parents, I will say, I've had one client in particular, I think of who I've worked with for a long time. And through a lot of a lot of life. This this this 19 year old has seen a lot. But something she shared with me recently was very early on in her work. It was just excruciatingly painful for her to articulate really what was going on internally. I could see it we could, we could see it, but we didn't know. There weren't words. And she said one of the one of the things that allowed her to keep coming back was that I just sat I literally sat with her. We didn't I didn't force conversations. Sometimes we passed a notebook back and forth to each other. And sometimes those were drawings, those weren't always words. But that went on for a while. But I went you know what it? The message she got was it was okay. I can hold it. And I think that's that that's really that's really the intention here is to say, I can handle it. As a parent, I can handle it. I don't like it. It's really yucky. But I can handle and I think that speaks to what you were talking about with this other therapist talking about that co-regulation piece. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Choi 20:19

And what a nice if you can get if you as a parent can get to a place where you can do that and feel comfortable doing that such a gift for you, your child and your relationship. Yeah. And future relationship

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 20:31

Because I think what we forget, sometimes, either as parents or as providers, frankly, is that sometimes the people we're working with or our kids already have the answers, and then they just are so overwhelmed that they can't access them in that moment. But if we provide them space, right to sit with it, yeah. And feel it. And it's okay. And it passes as emotions do, right? They're not temp, they're not permanent. They're temporary, the cloud moves, right, the sun comes out again. And then oh, right, a solution appears. Right? Or maybe no solution, but at least something to try. I think another really cool thing to try is to is doing some imagery or doing some just some imagining around the this event being a success. Right, and like kind of step by step. So really, it can be a little bit painstaking. But really breaking it down until like, I'm going to, I'm going to get dressed, I'm going to walk out the door, I'm going to take these steps into the into the school like really like, at all those moments where there might be a seizing up that that we're imagining, well, what can I do in that moment? What's that going to feel like in my body? And what? Who am I going to need what connection? You know, what can I remember? What can I have with me? What can I hold in my hand, like all kinds of ways of imagining each step of that transition, or that moment being a success?

Hannah Choi 22:13

Hearing that is very validating for me because I struggle with some anxiety and and when I'm lying in bed the night before a day where I know that I'm going to be doing some things that that I'm anxious about. I will envision my day I make myself like I imagined myself getting up getting ready. You know, doing like I walk myself doing through all of your things. Awesome. Yeah. And yeah, I usually don't even make it to the end of the day, because I fall asleep before I get there. But it has been the, it has been one of the most helpful things that I've done for myself dealing with an upcoming stressor.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 22:56

Uh huh. Yeah. So one other thing to be thinking about when we're thinking about these big transition moments, right. So there's, there's all kinds of things to be keeping in mind. But I do want to say kind of the importance of routines. So we know, kids sleep is really crucial. And I'm you know, I don't want to be judge and jury on that. I just want to say like, having a regular bedtime and wake up time, regardless of age is really important in terms of good sleep hygiene, and in terms of maximizing brain capacity, and, and overall health benefits, like the data is undeniable. It's just undeniable. So the more we can support, that kind of routine is, is going to, we're going to see a better regulated and a more ready kid for the day. Yeah, so whatever we can do to support that. Um, and nutrition. I don't you know, I'm not a dietitian. So I'm not getting I'm not going to get into the details of that. But what I will say that falls under that umbrella is there's also very strong data about family dinner. And in our world, and in a lot of family systems, people have a lot of competing schedules and the idea of having family dinner. Are you nuts? I am not in any way saying it needs to happen every night, if it is like gold star. However, having some sacredness having some having some having some way of saying this night is family dinner night and we honor that and we respect That and that doesn't mean that I have to spend an hour making said family dinner, but that we sat down, and maybe we sat down at, we didn't sit down, maybe we ate at the counter because somebody has to go in 20 minutes. But we came together as a family. And we had that slice of pizza together. And I made eye contact with you. And I had an opportunity to say, this happened to me today. Or, huh, hey, I remember now you or something was gonna You were telling me about so and so what ended up happening was so and so. Having a chance to do that. A it reinforces it the family as a team. And we can we need each other. We need each other so so much. It, it reinforces the idea that I got your back. I got your back. I'm here, even though I'm places I am here. So now. Yeah, that routine. If it's not there. I think that could go a long way towards building your kids emotional health.

Hannah Choi 26:13

Yeah, and I that was something that I heard a lot about, like during the height of the pandemic, when there was a lot of, you know, when we were all stuck at home, that that we ate dinner together. And it was so nice. I heard that from so many people. Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything else you'd like to add about managing transitions and dealing with all the feelings around those?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 26:36

I think we've said it, but it bears repeating that I think it's important to normalize that these transitions are stressful. So the more we can actively say, yep, starting school is right. Like there's parts of it that are really hard. Starting something new is usually hard change is usually hard. We as humans don't usually like to go from one thing to a new thing, like there's an adjustment, there's an adjustment to that the more we can normalize it, there's going to be stress for that there's going to be stress for everybody in the family, not just the kid going to, to school,

Hannah Choi 27:19

you know, the past two years, two and a half years has added a level of stress that maybe now it's not as overt. Right. It's not as in our face now. But the that low level vibration of stress that we are still all feeling whether we are aware of it or not, I imagine makes everything just like a little bit or a lot harder. Yeah. Depending on the person.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 27:48

Oh, I think there's so much yet to come out about all of this. Right. I think there was a book released maybe in the last month, right about the negative impacts educationally academically, which is kind of scathing, it's it's, it's, it's a little brutal. And that I'm sure that's the first of many, what what I'm seeing kids across the board, struggle with it that was always there. But I I you know, in terms of the Android, like you're talking about that little little vibration, so for some it's a low level of vibration, and others it's like it was before the pandemic. And now it's a full fledged problem. Our social skills, yes. Right. And that that covers a whole lot of ground. So I can get more specific about that. Very low lowered distress tolerance. I'm going to define that. As you know, Life is stressful. We wake up in the morning, like, if we're going to get out of bed, we're going to experience some stress. Plain and simple. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Lisa Damour.

Hannah Choi 28:59

Oh, yes. I actually have one of her books. I haven't read it yet. But uh, yeah, she's,

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 29:03

I just think she's great. I've had the good fortune of being in an audience, hearing her talk a couple of times, actually. And she's the one who said, you know, like, if you're going to get out of bed in the morning, you're going to experience stress, like that's just a given. But then the body in the mind's capacity then to like, manage that and kind of get on with it and deal with the day is a measure of your tolerance of that stress. And what I'm seeing, I think profoundly, actually, is it doesn't take much, yeah, to feel pretty overwhelmed. Pretty ready to say, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. That's not happening today. I don't want to talk to this person, you know, in a way that it wasn't. It's different. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 29:59

I mean, If my sister and I were just talking recently about how, before the pandemic, like me, I'm an extrovert and I love socializing. I love planning parties, and I love planning a chance to go out with friends or to, you know, connect with other people. And I find it difficult now, which is crazy, because it was something that I craved doing before. And I have to force myself to do now. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's getting better getting much. Yeah. I had a party this weekend!

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 30:28

Yeah, that does kind of make you go, wow. Like, yeah, yeah. And you don't know what's happening to you. But then, yeah, yeah. The third thing that it saddens me to say it, but I I, and I don't know, honestly, how much of this is truly actually anxiety, but it gets it manifests as cynicism. But that kind of like writing things off? Um, is there's an awareness of the world that I think is like inevitable. Like, I think it just like I don't think there was any way to avoid that and for for our kids and our teens. But I think what what I'm seeing coming with that is a cynicism. That is that is new. And I find that really sad.

Hannah Choi 31:15

Yeah. And how does that manifest like, how do you? What do you see that?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:20

I guess maybe a better word, maybe a more clinical word to use was, would be more more hopelessness, more more sense of doom, more sense of like, what's the point? More apathy? Yeah, and that it's heartbreaking. Yeah. That is heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 31:40

Yeah. And I suppose the repeated exposure to things not working out? Yes. You know, make sense that Yeah. Start to believe that that's true.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:49

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've lived through a very challenging health crisis, but we have many, many other you know, you know, the, the meme of the the dumpster on fire. Yeah. You know, that we connect with that. And our kids do, too. And I, how then how does how does a kid brain process that? What did you know? When Where did where did they go from there?

Hannah Choi 32:19

I have struggled, well not struggled. But for much of my adult life, I would like to become someone who meditates. It's something that I I like I've read a lot about the science, and I understand why it's good for us. And I have experienced the benefits of it the few times that I have gotten myself to meditate, but I cannot. Yet I have not yet yet. I'm trying to use the

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 32:39

growth mindset, language, open mindset, because I have not

Hannah Choi 32:43

yet built it into a built a practice of it into my life, which I'm sure would help me deal with the fallout of the pandemic. You know, how do you how do you from your perspective, how do you support someone who, you know, is open to trying something does try it and then wants to, you know, feels the benefit of it, and then wants to keep that as a practice that they that they do in their life?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 33:09

Well, if we're talking specifically about, like, a mindfulness or meditation practice, something I really encourage my clients to think about and honestly, myself, right, is that mindfulness doesn't have to be sitting in full lotus on a mat. Being quiet. It can be, it can be, but not everybody's going to gonna do that. And that and that's fine. That's, that's, I don't, I don't think that was anybody's intention, right of kind of, like expanding this idea of, of, of mindfulness and meditation practice. So there's a lot of ways to come at it, that might be more palatable, depending on who you are. Um, so one of the ways I really like to introduce it to people who are like, yeah, that's not me. Because I hear that a lot. And that makes sense. It isn't, yeah, that that particular way that isn't that isn't everybody, um, is the idea of taking something that you do habitually, every day, maybe even multiple times a day and do it slightly differently. So an example of that could be brushing your hair, brushing your teeth, getting out of the shower. Okay, these habitual acts, and I say habitual in very intentionally because it has to be something that you are doing really on autopilot.

HannahChoi 34:45

Yeah, where you don't think you don't think about it.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:48

You just do it, and then it's done. And if anybody asks you, how did you do that? You'd be like, I don't know.

Hannah Choi 34:55

I don't know. I just did it.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:58

I just do it. So, how do you change it up? So, here's a silly one. You know, like, if you put makeup on, let's say you put on mascara, you start on the on the opposite. Or you hold the one with the other hand. Yeah. Oh God, oh, or you brush your teeth, you brush your teeth, you probably start on the same side. Every time. Don't be stopped and thought about it, you would have to go to a different place.

Hannah Choi 35:31

Okay, okay, or like dry your body off in a different order? Yeah. Ah, okay.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 35:37

Exactly. Exactly. So it's really simple. It's just so so so simple, basic stuff.

Hannah Choi 35:49

And there's that and it works because it makes you bring your attention back to the thing that you're doing. Like, you start to wander off. And then you're like, wait, as I'm drying my arm, I'm drying at this point, when normally I'd be at my leg or whatever.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:01

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And thanks for saying that. Because mindfulness again is not about like, Ommmmm

Hannah Choi 36:07

yeah, right.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:09

Oh, that's the image we had. Right, right - mindfulness. Really, I think the way I think about a mindfulness practice is that I'm present moment focused. And my, I'm bringing as many of my senses into that present moment as possible. So I'm right here right now. I'm not rehashing the conversation I had before logging in with you. Any more than I'm anticipating the session? I have at one o'clock. Yeah, I'm right here. Yeah, so in my body. I'm in this I'm in this moment. Um, and so again, like did that doesn't have to be this. So yeah. So if I have to think about that, where that towel is, then I'm thinking about my hand. I'm feeling the towel. Right? I am. I'm very aware of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to last a long period of time. And every time like you, you're you're very naturally you're our we have monkey brains like we do. They jump around. That's what they do. That doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It means every time we catch that we have a monkey brain. Every time we realize, Oh, I'm not thinking about toweling myself off anymore. Right. We were mindful. Like success done. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You just practice mindfulness. Which I, you know, I, I hope that that approach, that that approach for me when I was taught that way, to me, it was like it totally demystified it and made it like, oh, I can do that.

Hannah Choi 37:59

Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like I'm feeling really, it's funny. This conversation does actually, like, make me feel a little bit a little bit better about my about myself, because I do see it as like a sitting and, and breathing and bringing myself back to my feeling the pressure of my, you know, butt on the floor, whatever. Like they always say, but, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 38:26

No, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no one is going to argue the value of having a dedicated meditative practice. Yeah, there is. I mean, there is data, it is phenomenal. Actually, it's phenomenal. So I would in no way discourage you from working towards that.

Hannah Choi 38:48

Yes. Right. And that's my point. I guess that's my point is that I am I am going to use the our idea of of switching things up and seeing that and valuing that as mindfulness to see the benefit to help me get to sit and feel my butt on the floor.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:07

Yeah. Yeah. I want to add one other really critical piece. Yeah. And that is non judgment.

Hannah Choi 39:16

Yes. Yes.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:19

So I think that one gets missed. Because we, we don't do a meditation perfection. We do a meditation practice, right? These philosophies. These ideas are based, right, like a basic tenant of them is that we're present moment focused non judgmentally. So however, I'm showing up whatever's going on however many times I have to catch myself right. Right in in in a 60 minute is 60 seconds. My mind wanders 60 times. Right? Who cares? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So that's not something that we come to immediately. Right that, that I think, honestly, I think that piece of it is harder. Yeah. Then the redirecting the brain, yeah.

Hannah Choi 40:19

Right. Right. Especially because we get, you know, throughout our lives, we get so many messages that say, we are being judged. You know, we are told that with grades and at work, and, yeah, it's, so separating yourself from that kind of thinking is challenging is really hard, you what you what you just said about how it's not just the pandemic that we've been dealing with, but a whole lot of other really deeply emotional and traumatic events that have happened, you know, for people at and, you know, related directly to the pandemic, like death and illness and long COVID. And then the really sad stuff that's going on, you know, with racism, and, and school shootings, and just, you know, the stress of the government and climate, you know, that that kind of stuff really impacts us as adults, because we are much more cognizant of what's going on, we really, you know, we're aware of it, we are exposed much more directly to it than our children are. But our children can also be exposed to it in ways that we can't regulate, like, we don't know exactly what they're being exposed to and how they're how they're getting the information, like, we know how we're getting it, but we don't know how they're getting it. Yes. So what are some things that we as parents and also as caregivers, because I'm sure there are people listening that are not parents, but they are there they interact with children? And in some way, how do we approach that those interactions in a developmentally appropriate way, in a way that we are comfortable with, and a way that, you know, both supports them meets their needs and protects them at the same time? Sounds pretty daunting to me, I know, as a parent with my own kids, I, it's yeah, it's hard.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 42:13

It is daunting. And what that reminds me of not to go too far off on a tangent, but I do think it's really relevant is, is, you know, we were just talking about this common denominator of living through of living through this pandemic, and how that's been this equalizer in terms of like, it's all something that we can talk about, we've all struggled with it, we've all had our own lives impacted, literally every person, right? So and there's a real opportunity to kind of come together through that in terms of that shared experience. So what that has meant for me as a provider, and where I think this is so relevant than when we're talking about, you know, as a parent, or as an adult, interacting with a kid about these other world events, is having a decent way of like checking in with myself, like, where am I at, with this, and am I regulated. And to be able to have this conversation to be able to kind of step in to this space with this, this person. And at times, having to, you know, being being able to say, while this is really hard for me to talk about, or I haven't quite wrapped my head around where I'm at, with this, I, I'm really sad about this, this really makes me angry, like being able to name what we have as adults, hopefully, as we've got a little more skill in being able to recognize what our own emotional state is, and a little more capacity to be able to verbalize that in an appropriate way. So that's not only like, just like good human behavior, but it's also really good modeling for kids. So I think like, that's got to be our starting place is like, Am I like, Am I okay, enough? If I checked my own ideas about this, have I had an opportunity to process this? And digest it enough that I can, you know, have a conversation about it? Yeah. And if I if I'm not, then do I have time to do that work? Or can I say, Wow, I don't you know, I want to talk about this? This is important and it's really bothering me to like maybe that's like maybe that's enough. I have been really pleasantly surprised but surprised about how much of this content has been coming up for my my kid in particular in high in high school that the vast majority of their knowing is coming from is coming from class. So it's been really like a very personal it's been really used We'll just say, Okay, well tell me about that class discussion, because then I at least I have a, I know where their starting place is. Right. But I think it can be useful to just say that, you know, there might be a lot of other ways of looking at it.

Hannah Choi 45:15

Mm hmm. Yeah. Teaching some of that perspective-taking and

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 45:19

yeah, that's some of that perspective taking, um, and sometimes our kids may have already taken a side on it. And it's, you know, it's worth kind of understanding where where they're at, they might just be really, really activated, they might be really scared. And again, like, that goes back to kind of where we started this whole conversation of like, well, let's, let's focus in on that. What's that emotional piece like, and under showing that understanding and Pat and compassion for, you know, whatever the fear is, it's coming up, or the anger that's coming up, the outrage is coming up.

Hannah Choi 45:55

And that we we have feelings about it too. And we can have different feelings about it, or we can share feelings about Yeah, I think it's such a great opportunity, something that you said, it's made me think that it's conversations around challenging topics, like this is such a great opportunity to teach kids the value of not having black and white thinking, and not even just the value of not doing black and white thinking but how, like how to not think that way. And you reminds me of the conversation that I had with Jackie Wolfman, who is a dialectical behavior therapist. And the whole idea of being able to hold opposite feelings about one thing at the same time. And, and also that extends to relationship with your family, like you might feel differently about something than your child or than your parent, but you can still connect and love each other and right, have a relationship.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 46:59

So another kind of another example of that, in my own in my own household, is my daughter getting a lot of information about about political things, and having very strong opinions, and having classmates with very opposing opinions. And that was an opportunity to to have kind of that dialectical. Right conversation about, you can agree and still be respectful. Yeah, you can agree and actually still like this, you can disagree and actually still like this person?

Hannah Choi 47:33

Yeah. Well, I lived it, because I'm a Red Sox fan. And I married a Yankees fan. So yeah.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:42

Well, you're living it every day.

Hannah Choi 47:44

I am, I am. Before we go, can you share with our listeners where they can find you?

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:54

Yeah, so I'm physically located in Needham, Massachusetts. So for anyone who's in the in local to me in the metro west Boston area, they can find me at the phone number 617-470-9035. But I also have a lot of digital content and plan on offering more in terms of guaranteeing webinars, anxiety classes and strategies for kiddos. And you can find all that on my website and register for upcoming stuff at www.parentcoach.info. In fact, I've got a in person class for kids called fear busters for kids this Thursday, October 6, and I have a parenting webinar the following day, Friday, October 7. And people literally can log in from anywhere for that. Yeah. So thanks again, Hannah.

Hannah Choi 48:54

Thank you so much, Rachel. Wonderful conversation. I feel like I could talk to you all day. It's really, really interesting.

Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 49:03

Wow, it's been really nice.

Hannah Choi 49:07

And that's our show. For today. We'll be back with more interesting conversations, tips and tricks for improving your executive function skills, and stories of success from people who are working on their own executive function skills. Thank you for being here for our second season and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we cover in each episode of Focus forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the topic. You can now find us on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and Spotify so be sure to add us. Thanks for listening

People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it’s rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination!

This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I’ve learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have any suggestions for future episodes!

Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:

Why We Procrastinate

Sirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future Self

Why People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey Marks

Inside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim Urban

This is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.

Tips and Tricks

Peg Dawson’s Task Initiation Obstacles Worksheets

For Students

For Adults

Steps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.

Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.

The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.

Books

It’s About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda Sapadin

Atomic Habits by James Clear

Eat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian Tracy

List of Books by Russell Barkley

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Music credits:

Aso - Sunsets

leavv - Voyage

Ambient Guitar - Westlake

Purpose - Jonny Easton

GateKeeper - The Piano Says

Into the Light - Chill Acoustic Guitar

Acoustic Folk Instrumental - Hyde

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:00

Do you procrastinate?

Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01

Sometimes.

Hannah Choi 00:02

Do you know why you procrastinate?

Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04

I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard.

Hannah Choi 00:09

And what do you do to get yourself going?

Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12

I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it.

Hannah Choi 00:22

Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to.

Hannah Choi 01:06

I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful.

Hannah Choi 03:28

But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.

Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58

Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.

Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15

Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.

Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30

I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity.

Hannah Choi 05:44

Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks.

Hannah Choi 07:36

Do you procrastinate?

Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37

100%? Absolutely. All the time!

Hannah Choi 07:40

Do you know why?

Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43

So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.

Hannah Choi 07:53

Do you know why you procrastinate?

Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55

Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.

Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59

And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.

Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26

Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done.

Hannah Choi 08:33

Why not?

Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33

I because I procrastinate because I hate it.

Hannah Choi 08:36

Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves.

Hannah Choi 09:08

So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it.

Hannah Choi 09:52

Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time.

Hannah Choi 11:54

And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out.

Hannah Choi 13:58

Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.

Hannah Choi 14:35

You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck.

Hannah Choi 15:32

Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared.

Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57

Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going.

Hannah Choi 17:06

Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down to

Hannah Choi 17:43

Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect.

Hannah Choi 18:56

Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy.

Hannah Choi 19:36

I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency.

Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55

Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.

Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02

Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.

Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15

What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.

Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25

I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.

Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40

I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there.

Hannah Choi 21:58

I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance.

Hannah Choi 22:13

Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too.

Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25

Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination.

Hannah Choi 24:34

If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself.

Hannah Choi 24:57

This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.

Hannah Choi 26:13

I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating?

Hannah Choi 27:34

Do you procrastinate?

Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35

Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?

Despite being a common diagnosis, many people with ADHD may go most of their lives without ever officially being diagnosed. Although there are a number of challenges that this presents, one of the most frustrating is that the longer ADHD is left untreated, the more difficult it becomes to change our habits. Even so, that doesn't mean it's impossible - and our guest today proves it!

For this week's episode, I invited Bob Shea - a renowned children's author who only recently received an ADHD diagnosis at age 52 - to talk about the trials and triumphs he experienced living with hidden ADHD for so long. Although Bob has some legitimate regrets about not getting diagnosed sooner, he's worked hard to address his challenge areas and make meaningful transformations in his habits. As a result, Bob has seen major improvements in both his personal and professional life that he's excited to share with our listeners. He also reveals the tools, systems, and interventions that helped him along the way. His contributions to the podcast reveal an important lesson - it's never too late to get the support we need to become the best version of ourselves.

I know you'll enjoy listening to Bob's advice, wit, and humor just as much as I did during our conversation.

Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation:

ADHD Resources

On-Demand Webinar: ADHD Fundamentals - What you need to succeed after diagnosis: This is the link to a webinar Beyond BookSmart held recently. If you register, you’ll gain instant access to the webinar.

8 Things You Need to Know About ADHD After a Diagnosis: A blog that summarizes key points from the webinar linked above.

ADHD Information for Adults: This website includes information on medication and non-medication approaches to managing ADHD.

How To ADHD YouTube Channel: An amazing channel that tries to both normalize and help support the trials and tribulations of living with ADHD.

Dr. Tracey Marks - Skills Training for ADHD Playlist: A fantastic psychologist and content creator with invaluable insights on living with ADHD.

Other Stuff We Discussed

Bob's Planning and Time Management Strategy Here's a pic of Bob's notebook so you can see how he lays out his tasks and week.

The Sam Harris Meditation App: This is the meditation app that Bob likes to use every morning.

Jetpens.com: Bob's favorite place to shop for pens online.

The Pomodoro Technique: 25 Minutes to Increase Productivity: This is the time management approach called the Pomodoro Method that Bob uses. We also use it as coaches!

Leuchtturm1917 Notebook: This is the notebook I use for my bullet journal.

Time Timer Visual Clock: This is the visual timer that I asked Bob about and then he showed me his which he had on the desk next to him.

River Fox BuJo: My daughter’s Pinterest account I mentioned in the episode

Bob Shea's Instagram and Website

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

When my kids were little, we spent hours at our local library and we'd go home with 50 or so books at a time. We especially loved picture books that made us laugh. And one day we discovered an author called Bob Shea, and Bob's books quickly became some of our favorites. Thanks to the internet, we found out that Bob also lived in our home state of Connecticut. We followed him on Instagram and really enjoyed his drawing tutorials and quirky posts. And Bob started inviting other children's authors and illustrators to have a conversation with him on Instagram Live every Friday. And one day he had author and illustrator Charles Santoso on for a chat. And Bob openly and very candidly shared about his experience having ADHD. He talked about the time management strategies that he uses, and how important they are for him. I knew at that very moment that I just had to invite Bob on to be a guest on the podcast. So today, I've got you a very entertaining and very real conversation about how ADHD impacts his life, how medication really helped and the tools and strategies that he uses to find satisfaction in his life. And I'm really thrilled to share Bob's story with you today. Before we jump in, I want to acknowledge that not everyone with ADHD uses medication. And whatever choice people make about medication is theirs and theirs alone. There are alternative options for those who choose not to use it. And for those who do use it, they likely find that it doesn't work well just on its own. As you'll hear Bob say it works well for him because he combines it with other non medication strategies. If you are interested in learning more, check out the show notes for more reading and resources on this topic. Okay, now on to the show. Okay. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. Do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners?

Bob Shea 02:10

Sure. My name is Bob Shea. I'm a children's book author and illustrator. And I found out that I had ADHD when I was 52.

Hannah Choi 02:24

Did you, did you won...have you had you wondered before in your life?

Bob Shea 02:30

I not in a serious way. It was probably the six months before I was diagnosed that I really started to think that it was more than just character flaws.

Hannah Choi 02:51

Did something happen? Was there like a some kind of shift in your thinking or something that got you to start with questioning that?

Bob Shea 03:00

There were two things I did start following some ADHD accounts on Instagram. That was one thing. So that put it on my radar pretty strong. And what would happen was or what happened I remember specifically, someone did a real that had symptoms of ADHD that I had never known would have been things and it was exactly how my brain works like exactly. And it wasn't the traditional. This is what ADHD is why because my the one of the reasons I one of the reasons I didn't think that I had it was because I know people who you know, in five minutes, you're like, Man, this conversation is 20 different subjects. And my my brothers both have it in and in the three of us it presents differently. So that was difficult. I'm not hyperactive, I don't have any of the traditional things. My my thoughts about ADHD were Bart Simpson, bad student acting up can't sit still. I was I did well in school. I wasn't a troublemaker at all. None of those things. So I was like, I don't have any of that stuff. And then there was a day when I was trying to finish a project I was trying to finish a book that I had do. And I couldn't do it like I couldn't pick up my iPad and open up the file and start... like it was due it was like that safety net of, of a looming deadline did not fail to ignite the fire. And I was scrolling on the Instagram instead. Like, compulsively. I was like I can't stop doing this. I'm look I was like I need some kind of stimulation that and the the I was I'm looking forward to doing the book. Like it was not like Yay, I'm gonna do this book and I'm excited finally gonna get to dig in. I've avoided it and I, I made an appointment for the next day with my, with my doctor with a physician's assistant. I went home and told my wife and she was like, Yeah, that's a really good idea.

Hannah Choi 05:23

She's like, finally the day has come.

Bob Shea 05:24

She was like, yeah, she was like, Man, she got the worst of it over the years, I'll tell you. So, yeah, so then I went to the, you know, when I went to this appointment, and I almost cancelled it. I was like, you know, just do your work. I'm sure you're fine. She's gonna let I had gone to her one time for Xanax because I had to go on tour. And I didn't want to talk to people that asked for like, I'm like, Look, I just need, I don't take it normally. Like, she has my records. Like, I'm not a drug seeker. But I was like, I'm traveling, I got to talk to people. I need some Xanax. And she was reluctant to give it to me, and like really gave me a hard time about it. And so I was like, she's not going to do anything for this ADHD, she's gonna laugh at me. She's like, come back when you break an arm. That's what I thought it was gonna be when you have when you're bleeding. Give me a call, like not for this. Boo hoo hoo, you can't get your work done. But she was really, really empathetic. And I had I had in the three months prior stop drinking, because it was a pandemic, and I was getting really heavy. Yeah. I was exercising every day. And I was, I had cut sugar out. And I was meditating a lot. I'm a big meditator. And so I went down the litany of what was happening, and that I had that I had and hadn't been doing these things in the last three months. And she said, everything you just said is what I would have told you to do. I would have said, eat better exercise and meditate. She said, if you're doing that stuff, and then she gave me an assessment, and I was laughing, because it was like, they were watching me during my day. I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I do every time. Yeah, they're like, do you like not? Do you get really close to the end of a project and not finish? I'm like, there's something new to do here. Like, right? I'm like, Yeah, you know, like everybody does that like, no, not everybody. And she put me on Adderall right away. And it was flipped, like flipping a switch. It was great. It's wonderful. I know it doesn't work for everyone. And everyone has their own way of treating it. But for me, my wife was like, thank God.

Hannah Choi 07:48

That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great. It's so great that you that you didn't let the part of you that wanted to not go that that part didn't get its chance. And you just went anyway and talked with her. Yeah. Well, I mean, I actually know that a lot of people are afraid to find out because they don't want to find out that that, that they have X, Y or Z. And but I'm sure it has been your experience. Once you find out it actually can really open up a lot of doors and opportunities and possibilities and totally different way of thinking about yourself.

Bob Shea 08:23

Just Yeah, I saw my, the past 50 years of my life and an entirely different light. And I was like, Man, why did anybody put up with that guy? He was the worst. I was, I was so glad I actually was birth because I was like, man, like,my life would have been so much different. Had I known that I could have been fixed. But you know, and then the other thing is like, both of my brothers have it. They don't want to do anything about it. Like they like it. And I'm like, really? I'm like I would I can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm like this is I don't I don't spin this into a positive thing at all. For me personally, I'm like, I have I could get I could have been high. Who knows what my life would be like, if I didn't have it? It's not it's not some secret power that I have.

Hannah Choi 09:18

Right? Right. But like we were talking before we started recording, don't you feel like it has given you some of the creativity that you've needed to to create the do the stuff that you've done, create the books that you've done and

Bob Shea 09:34

yeah, I'm, I'm hesitant to give that so much credit because, but I'll tell you I think that that's true. I think that it allowed me to say, see to make connections I wouldn't have made otherwise when I was coming up with things and what it did was it gave me a unique voice creatively, my sense of humor is very unique to me, for good or for bad. I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone. But I'm saying when I write jokes or make a joke, it's comes out of left field. And it's not, Oh, I see what he's doing when he's doing this. It's very strange, for better or worse, but I'll tell you all the things that it didn't wear me all the things that it did for me, I would trade it to be have had a normal life, because I think it was a million times a detriment than it was, then then whatever it gave me.

Hannah Choi 10:39

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah,

Bob Shea 10:41

If I was sitting right now in my office up in Hartford, Connecticut, as executive of insurance company, in the HR department being like, you know, we have a lot of events coming up. And we have to do these things in a nice, neat desk. I'd love nothing more.

Hannah Choi 11:00

Well, I have to say that I'm really glad that you did not discover your ADHD until you were 52. And I think that there are lots and lots of children in the world that are really glad you didn't. And lots of parents.

Bob Shea 11:12

Well, I appreciate you saying that. But you know,

Hannah Choi 11:15

So if you look at your life, since you were diagnosed, since you started, like, you know, taking Adderall and just being okay, I have a diagnosis. This is this is why do you see Have you seen the change? Could you compare the like before and after?

Bob Shea 11:33

It's night and day, I mean, that there's there's work things like like right now, I'm as busy as I've ever been in my career. Right now, for the last two months, and probably going into the next couple of weeks, I have so much to do. And it's fine. Like, it's not, I'll have to work this evening, I'll have to get up early in work. But it's fine. I can. I can see it for what it is. I it's not overwhelming things. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed all the time. And that affected my relationship with my family. Because nobody can talk to me. Because you have so much going on in your head. That is all equally important. That was the thing. Everything you had to do was just as important as the other next thing, which actually wasn't as important. So when my wife would come in the room and go, Hey, what should we have for dinner? I'd be like, how can you come in here and add another thing to this pile that's in my head, right? And now I'm just I'm so much more pleasant to be around. I was irritable all the time. I was I thought I thought it was over. I thought I thought I was going to I thought we were going to split up because it may like we didn't talk about it. But in my head. I was like head in my head. I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But I can't be around people.

Hannah Choi 13:04

Do you think that it was it's mostly that medicine that has changed things for you?

Bob Shea 13:11

Yes, you know, yeah, because, but that but there's I have to explain that a little bit. I do think that that's the case because I wanted to change. I didn't want to be like that. I knew that I was I knew that I was a jerk. And I knew that I was impatient, and that I couldn't she on the weekends. She'd be honest. She's like, you know, when you're home on the weekend, all you want to do is be at work. I know that you're I know that you're not happy. I couldn't, I couldn't relax. I couldn't go just do something. And it was because I thought I had failed the previous week, getting things done. And so I was trying to always try to catch up. I was always trying to catch up. The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners. So always had calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this? And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill. I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do. Because you're so bad at it. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Choi 14:32

So what's what kind of systems and strategies do work for you?

Bob Shea 14:36

It's sort of a it's sort of a mix of a lot of different systems that I had found. But But basically, it's capturing all the information in your head. So I I just did it this morning because it's Monday. I usually do it on Sundays. I write down everything I have to do that week like and it's all in a big pile. So it can be work on this illustration. And the next thing could be make an appointment for a haircut. Like it's not there's no over here you put work and over here you put it it's it's a, it's a messy list on the page next to that I put big blocks because I have to see things and I can't do this on the computer, I have to write it down with my hands, or else. It all looks the same on the computer. It's just like typed words. It could be anything. Yep. And now, because a draw, we're like writing a list, you can draw a little picture of something. Oh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So then I, so then I do the days of the week next to that, just horizontal bars of Monday through Friday. And then I drop in roughly, where what I'm going to do on what day really rough like not like you at three o'clock are going to do this. Yes. Then when the day comes...this all sounds so complicated. And it's not. Then on the day I draw a box for every half hour of the day, I make a list, I make a list, I'm going to I'm like, I'm going to work on this. And I'm going to work on this and I make a box for every half hour of the day and I write in the box, what I'm going to work on at what time and it's it is very flexible. If I don't, I'm okay with that. But I have to just know that I have a plan. I will not make this punitive because I will be mad at it. So it's to help me it is not to punish me ever. And one of the things that I did it first, or one of the things that helped the time while blindness was so bad because I'd be like I have a book to I'll take me two days, I don't know, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I had no concept. So what, so what I do is I write what I plan to do in that in those blocks time. Then when they pass, I go, and I don't do it immediately. Like at the end of the day, I'll say, Boy, I thought that thing was going to take me an hour and a half took me three hours. That's awesome. So I'm training myself to know what things really take like, oh, going to the post office, that's probably negative 20 minutes. Like, really, you gotta get an envelope, gotta find the right size envelope, you got to pick up the address the person gave you you got to seal it, you got to walk down, there's probably going to be aligned, you know, you're gonna get a coffee after because you did an errand and you need a treat. And then you know, by the time you get back, like how long did that trip to the post office, it takes an hour. And then you have to be like, alright, you have to go to the post office today that costs an hour. Like and then you know, because then you're like, then you're not, you overestimate what you can get done. And then at the end of the day, you feel terrible. You're like, you beat yourself up and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, Yeah, you know?

Hannah Choi 17:48

Yeah, time blindness is a really big. It can, it can really impact so many aspects of your life like, like actually just running out of time. But then also the your opinion that you have it yourself. Yeah, if you constantly are not estimating the time correctly, then you're just gonna feel like you can't get anything done.

Bob Shea 18:12

Yeah, yeah. And as a result as a result of doing that. And the medication I don't take on as much. Yeah, ever. Because now when I see so if I'm sitting here, and I go online, or whatever, and I go, Hey, look at little felted animals, looks fun. I could get some felt. And I'm gonna make little, like penguins and foxes. It'll be adorable. I'm a children's book author. I should be doing this whimsical stuff all day. And then you go and you look that stuff up. And you buy felts and you got felting needles and stuff. And then you're like, how am I going to do this? And then the reality hits.

Hannah Choi 18:55

It's just so funny because my other my other job is I, I teach fiber arts classes with a friend of mine and that's like exactly what we do!

Bob Shea 19:07

Right? But it looks really fun. I have the needles here. I in my closet, I have the needles. But now I see that and I go Yeah, that'd be fun if you have time because and the only reason I say this because I'm like, Well, what are you going to do the other 20 things I taught myself that. Agreeing to do something means you're saying you're not going to do something else. Right? And I'm talking to the guitar in my corner. Okay?

Hannah Choi 19:37

Just this morning, I was talking to a client and he, he is an adult who was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. And he was talking about how, like for work he's doing really great like staying on to on on track and not taking on too much. You know, and checking like, Is this realistic? Like if my you know, am I is it realistic to take on another client or whatever. And then and then we were talking about how you also have to kind of do that in your, you know, in the in the fun things. Like you, you, you might want to make the felted animals and play the guitar and you know, be really good at all these things. But if you would you ask you have to ask yourself the same thing you ask yourself with your work, like, is it realistic to take on all of these things? If you if you take on too much, you can't do it all and then you just beat yourself up?

Bob Shea 20:29

Yeah, that's the thing. I could enjoy none of the things. Yeah. And all it was was another source of tension with my wife, because it's like, my half done projects were all over the place. And she was like, can you just throw this out? Now just bring it to Goodwill, or give it to somebody throw it away? And she was right. But I mean, I was like, I was like, I'm gonna make that it's gonna be great. And that's the other thing too with ADHD, you can't be bad at things. Like if I played guitar, I was like, I'm gonna be really good at it. So I didn't say that with guitar, but with most most things. I'm like, I don't want to just, I don't want to do this half measure. I want to be good at it. It's like, Well, yeah. And again, with the paying attention to how long things take. I'm like, I can't do anything else.

Hannah Choi 21:15

Yeah, right.

Bob Shea 21:16

I'm full! Like even with work, I'm like, when are you gonna do all these amazing?

Hannah Choi 21:21

There's only so many hours in a day. Yeah. And you have to sleep and you have to eat and you have to have some downtime.

Bob Shea 21:27

Yeah, I belong to a Makerspace in New Haven. And it's good and it's bad, because it's great because I can go there for the day. And I'm like, I'm just doing this and I enjoy it. And I I said to my... I stopped putting up requirements on myself. I'm like, when I go in, you're gonna fail at all the things and not walk out with a wooden, whatever you were making. You're going to walk out with your materials all ruin that you paid for. And just and but I'm like, That's the day that's fine. And the other thing, the other other reason it's bad is because they keep getting new stuff, which Oh, wow, you guys gotta chill. So I could do pottery? Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at slip casting. And what do I need? What do I need to buy for this? Man, I'm like that. So now I'm like, ignore that, don't learn how to use the tablesaw

Hannah Choi 22:23

You're getting a lot of practice of saying no.

Bob Shea 22:25

I am! I'm just ignoring stuff. I'm like, I let me tell you, I hate Pre-Adderall Guy so much, that I'm saying no out of spite. I'm like, you don't deserve to make pottery. Help bring another thing into the house. You. I see you back there. You know, because it's still I'm still the same thing. Like my brain still is seeking those that stimulation to like, it's still dopamine, when I'm like, a new thing to learn. There's a lot of dopamine in that goldmine of dopamine. So passing that up as Adderall makes you say, you've got enough to get by. You don't need to go look for other places, even social media. I'm on social media so much less. I used to be on Twitter all the time.

Hannah Choi 23:17

So going back to the strategies that you use, how did you develop those? How'd you come up with those?

Bob Shea 23:22

Even before the Adderall, I was obsessed with time management. Always, always, always, always, unsuccessfully. I remember in the 90s, A long time ago, I went and did a Franklin Planner thing. And I think I kept a Franklin Planner for a while, like for a year, probably about a year and then I had to refill it. And I'm like, fellas, I'm gonna have to do that anymore. But I always remember the sort of the principles and stuff. And I remember now thinking back, like it's not ADHD friendly. Like they're very, it's very, like, it's for people who already have their act together. And it's just a way to clean up their act.

Hannah Choi 24:08

Those linear thinkers

Bob Shea 24:09

It's so I always thought it's always like, something wrong with me. I thought I always thought it was like a character failing that I had, I was like, Well, you know, I was like, You know what, I always hated sports. When I was growing up, I probably just don't have discipline. And that's a now that's why they always wanted you to do that, so that you could do a boring task that you didn't want to do. And then, so I had an even I was even going back to the makerspace I was designing all these electronics, things that were all about how to remind me to do things. Every one thing, I had a thing where I'm still making this one, and that's not me lying, it's my first project. I was gonna have more successful authors than may record a message to me like, "Hey, how's that book coming you were telling me about?" Yeah, and then randomly during the day, it would announce that whatever I was doing was like, Oh, I was looking at felted animals. Back to work, yeah. I had I have it all sketched out, like, how it works. And the components I need, but everything I did everything I was like, seriously, I was like, I'm going to film, because I didn't know how the day worked. I'm going to film this was an idea of flowers, drying and decaying and falling off the thing. And then I'm going to play it fast during the day over eight hours, so that when I looked up, I go, Oh, the things are starting to fall. That means I have this much time. I was trying to, I was trying to find ways to look at time visually that I'd understand and not like just a clock, which I'm like, that's just the number I don't know. Because you come in in the beginning of the day, and you're like, I have all day. You know, and you're like, well, and then you're like, Well, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go take a walk. And then I'm like, Jesus running out real quick.

Hannah Choi 26:06

Yeah, like half a day now. Have you heard of the Time timers were like shows a red...like, It's like, it looks like a clock. And yeah. That right there. Do you use it?

Bob Shea 26:19

Sorry about that noise. That's part of my thing with with the, with the blocks that I draw out the half hour blocks, 25 minutes, because it's the Pomodoro Technique, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Are you if that is the I'll tell you something. The timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm, I'm diligent about using the timers. That's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today. It's like it's not a bad day, it still works falls apart a lot easier. Those timers, because it gives you a little deadline. Yep. And you look at that thing. And you're right, like the visual thing for me was huge. And so for that deadline, I go, I tell myself, you can't look at your phone, because you're working. And so then that way I go, Well, there's only 15 minutes, I can not look at my phone for 15 minutes. But if I don't have the time, or it's every three minutes up, pick it up. Yeah, I'm better about it now, but that's how it works. I also blocked Instagram on everything but my laptop so that when I sit down, it's intentional. Like I'm gonna go on Instagram now. Look at messages I do. scroll a little bit. It's boring on your laptop. You're not on the sofa looking at TV and doing it. So I'm out faster. I'm in and out faster. And and then on my devices for work. Like my iPad. No. No social media. Still the news? I still look at the news all the time. But no social media. Yeah. Pinterest is great. I like Pinterest. Yes.

Hannah Choi 27:57

It is great. My daughter is like slowly racking up a whole bunch of followers. She does bullet journaling. Yeah, she does. She does bullet journal. She has this bullet journal. She's 13 years old. And she's really starting everyday. She's like, Oh, I have like 20 more followers. She's up to 350! Yeah, it's so cool. But she like shares like her that art the art that she did it for the week and how she laid it out. And

Bob Shea 28:24

Does she get this she get... she's been to like JetPens, right? And she gets all this stuff from

Hannah Choi 28:29

I don't know what JetPens is. But she's got all the pens.

Bob Shea 28:32

Sorry, I told you because oh, there's a whole other world of pens you don't know about

Hannah Choi 28:38

JetPens, okay, I gotta write that down.

Bob Shea 28:39

So good. I love I love that stuff. And like pencil cases and like pencil sharpeners that look like pandas.

Hannah Choi 28:48

And you guys could talk for hours. She's totally into it.

Bob Shea 28:52

So So I give her a lot of credit, because I couldn't keep up with a bullet journal. My thing is like black ink and then read for like, what I really did, because I'm like, I had to pare it down to a simpler.

Hannah Choi 29:04

Yeah. Well, I keep a bullet journal too. But mine is also like, super. It's just like, there's nothing fancy

Bob Shea 29:11

Yeah, that's what mine looks like. Yeah. And you have the same you have that kind to Yeah. Yeah, my wife made minus 10 or something.

Hannah Choi 29:20

Yeah, yeah. I

Bob Shea 29:20

don't know how you say it. I use those a lot for other things. But I don't but I use a different I just use a grid. Very simple one because I go through so many of them.

Hannah Choi 29:30

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping systems like that requires some practice. It requires quite a bit of perseverance and quite a bit of, you know, discipline. What motivates you to stick with it?

Bob Shea 29:49

This I think what, what motivates me to stick with it is that, like I said before, it's not punitive. It's not it's not it's here to help me not make me feel bad. So as I use it things that don't work for me, it was a little more not complicated. There were more, there was more to it when I first started doing it, anything that didn't sort of serve me I got rid of. So now it's like, it's a way to collect my thoughts. It's not a way to to be a taskmaster that you have to do these things. At the end of the day, a lot of times, I'll have gotten made a lot of progress on things, but maybe not even the things I thought I was going to do. And then I'm like, that's still a good day, I made a lot of progress. And I'm proud of what I did. Like, I'm glad that I moved the needle on this project. The other project can wait a day, because I have long deadlines. You know, like, I don't usually I think, like when I was doing graphic design, like maybe I didn't notice it much because it was like That thing's due in two days, like and it would be like in the next week, something else would be due now. It's like months at a time. That's bad for people like me.

Hannah Choi 31:01

Long term planning is like a whole different set of skills that

Bob Shea 31:04

I'm still working on that that is like, time makes no sense to me. Three months, like, that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna be here.

Hannah Choi 31:14

Have you ever watched inside the mind of a master procrastinator with Tim Urban? He, it's a TED Talk that...

Bob Shea 31:22

Yes, I think so! He has he does his thesis in the last day. That was hilarious. Yeah. So good. Before I knew I had ADHD. Yeah, it's hilarious!

Hannah Choi 31:35

it's a great, that's such a great example of exactly what you just.

Bob Shea 31:41

Yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I'm not. I so I just turned in a book. A couple of, I'm in the revision process of it now. And I was proud of myself. Because it was only two weeks late, instead of three months, like yeah, I was real- And I'm sure they are, but it was a new art director and I don't think that they were as proud of me as I am.

Hannah Choi 32:05

You're like, you don't know what this means.

Bob Shea 32:08

Like, I'm like, checking outside to see if the UPS guys bring in like, you know, a Harry and David box gift basket. Two weeks late, two weeks late, not three months. Like, oh, look, guess who's almost like a normal person?

Hannah Choi 32:26

That's so great.

Bob Shea 32:27

I have friends who are like, Yeah, this isn't due till September. So I finished it early, so I could get out some other things. I'm like, What are you talking about? I've never, ever done that. Ever. That's the thing. I had a friend who told me he did that. And then I was telling him about the ADHD. And he's like, maybe I have ADHD. I said, let's take a step back. Yeah. Remember how you told me? You just finished something up? That's not due for three months? No, no, no, no. I'm not a medical professional, but no.

Hannah Choi 33:01

So funny. What do you think would happen if you turned something in on time?

Bob Shea 33:06

I might have no, I don't know. I have no idea what that's like, I think that I'm gonna tell you though, I see the I see the benefit of doing that. This sounds so dumb. This sounds like such a, Are you new to being in the world? Like, if I so working alone and making up my own projects and things it's like, it's it's so much more helpful to me to have a system and try to get in on time. Because that frees up time for other things. Not felted animals, other projects that could maybe make money, right? Like there's, I mean, it's a balance with the kids books, because I can't, I can't have people be like, Man, he's cranking these things out once again. You right, you know what I mean? Like,

Hannah Choi 33:57

Can't be too productive!

Bob Shea 33:58

Good, right, like, have a side hustle. I can drive for Uber in those two weeks. That's what I could have been doing.

Hannah Choi 34:08

No, no, Bob.

Bob Shea 34:10

I don't think that's not a good idea.

Hannah Choi 34:11

You obviously did something different to get your three week overdue and a three month overdueness down to two week, two weeks overdue. What do you do different?

Bob Shea 34:20

That was that that's the last piece that I'm working on now. What is the long term plan? I can't I don't understand how time works. I don't get that. You know, I don't get that. Laters not does not a thing. Laters Not a thing. And it's not better than now. Like the way I behave now? Yeah, I'm gonna behave like that tomorrow. Like, I'm like, I can be like, Oh, tomorrow when I wake up, I'm gonna be all put together. You know what I mean? So now this machine that I've made that can kind of not a very fast moving thing. It's it's constantly pressing forward, which is good and not speedy. But so it's only recently that I've acknowledged that the future is going to happen, whether I like it or not. So I start to use. So now I am using a calendar. On my computer, which I don't like to do, I should actually get a physical one. And I'm writing in dates things are due so that I can see them approach. Yeah, that's good. I know that I have something due on August 1. And I'm already obsessed about it not obsessed. But I'm already like, if you don't get started on July 1, you're never going to get that done. I know that that's and I'm like, I can't. Last minute panic. It gets old after 50 years. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 35:47

Takes the wear and tear on your body. Yeah. What if instead of... what if you put the deadline- So you have the deadline that it's due on August 1? What if on the calendar on July 1, you wrote, like, start the thing?

Bob Shea 36:04

Yeah, that's, that's what I should do. And I did. I did that. The one that was two weeks late, I put in every day like you are supposed to be working on this thing. I am the worst employee. I just, I That stuff's easy. If I'm like, if it's due in 30 days, I'm like, Well, I can go to MakeHaven today. You know what I mean? Because it's 30, I still got 29 days - work a little harder.

Hannah Choi 36:36

And I suppose thinking, well, if I just do it all now and I get it done five days before the due date, then I could spend five full days in a row at MakeHaven.

Bob Shea 36:46

that sounds like a wonderful world that I do. You know, I'll tell you, I have that conversation with myself in a very convincing manner. executing that plan, to a degree where all the steps are taken care of in a in a timely way. And let me tell you something, too. It's not me. It's not me blowing it off. It's, it takes longer than I guess. So even with this thing, even. And then things happen that you don't anticipate. You know, that's the other thing

Hannah Choi 37:19

Yeah. And the unpredictable variables of life,

Bob Shea 37:22

That and that's even going back to the boxes, and it applies to the month to going back to the boxes. If you write down what really happens. You can look back and go, oh, there's all these things that I didn't know in the morning were going to happen that I had to deal with. And so you don't feel bad. At the end of the day. You're like, well, it wasn't my fault. I wasn't I wasn't like googling what movie was Nicolas Cage in in the 90s was the thing and they switched faces. You know what I mean? You're like, you don't you don't stop to do that. As long as I'm like working and not like, just looking at, you know, woodworking videos. What I like to do - keep that to my personal time.

Hannah Choi 38:05

Yeah, having some flexibility, like, like, flexibility both in what we do during the day and also like recognizing that, that we cannot be rigid all the time. We cannot. As much as we want to stick to whatever we have planned for that day, it just doesn't. Yeah, definitely gonna happen.

Bob Shea 38:25

Yeah, it's, it's, it's about being honest with yourself about how you work, and then saying, Look, you work this way. Here's what'll work with that without you beating yourself up because I because I couldn't figure it out. Because I was like, I did all this stuff in my career to get to the point where I'm have autonomy. I can work by myself. I come up with my own projects. Great, great, great. And I'm like, and then you ruin it because you're on stupid Twitter. Why would you do that? You have you? Here's everything that you wanted. And you undermine yourself. It's awful. It was

Hannah Choi 39:10

How much do you think that had to do with fear? The fear that you weren't going to be do it do it right or fear that it was going to be uncomfortable while you were doing whatever it was.

Bob Shea 39:22

That's a big part of it because I would - the books - I can't look at books that I did already. From the past. Somebody's using an angle grinder outside. So I can't look at Yeah, so good. It's like, I hope I hope they're making a playground. Something good.

Hannah Choi 39:45

I never found out what my neighbors were doing.

Bob Shea 39:48

Right. Hold on. Let me look real quick. Oh, soft serve ice cream. It's gonna be good. Yeah,

Hannah Choi 39:55

Wait! That's another distraction. Now, I think they're building a brand location of the makerspace

Bob Shea 40:02

Oh, that's good. Right there. Right? They are. It's they're putting in a table saw. More noise, Great. Yeah, you know, you get so excited for these projects. And in your head, it's perfect. It's the best thing you've ever done. And then you can then you put it down on paper, and there it is going through the filter of your abilities.

Hannah Choi 40:25

And your own self criticism, I'm sure

Bob Shea 40:27

I can't I was saying before, before they were making the ice cream stand outside, but I can't look at my old books. I can't open them up. People are like, Oh, what was that thing? And I'm like, I'm not going I'm not opening that again. All you see is the things you did wrong. And and in my case, all I see is Yeah, you did that at the last minute, didn't you? Yeah, you're a champ. You're a prince. Look at that, aren't you Like, aren't you professional?

Hannah Choi 40:53

I'm so curious. I want I kind of want to follow up with you in a couple of years and see, like, if you, like see how your thought processes about your own work have changed? Yeah, I'd be interesting to see that.

Bob Shea 41:07

I think that I think that I'm managing expectations about that. And as long as I can be comfortable with myself, I'm fine. Like I said, like the overwhelm went away. So I'm not always like, yeah, I sort of can just accept things the way they are and be like, yeah, that's okay. And I'll tell you, that is so huge. Like, it's so huge.

Hannah Choi 41:35

Yeah. So I'm, I'm doing an episode on procrastination. So would you say you are a procrastinator?

Bob Shea 41:46

Yep. Yeah, more. So before the Adderall for sure. Yeah, yeah, I still do it. And now when I do it, I can stop if I want to. But also, if I'm doing it, and I know that I'm doing it, I'm like, give yourself a break. You're okay. It's not that big a deal. Because what the other thing is about understanding how you work. So I write this grid during the day, the last couple of hours, like probably from from four to four to six. You're not getting anything done. Like you're not, you get it you get an ice cube of creativity every day, you get like, here's this, you can you have this for like an hour and a half, and then you're not gonna get anything good. Stop. So I know from four to six, I'm like, Alright, clean up your office, which is still a mess from ADHD, I'm still working on that. Clean your office reply to emails, low cognitive load things. Yeah. Because that's the time when I'll be like, looking at Instagram or something. Because I'm, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out of stuff, you know.

Hannah Choi 42:53

So something that I try to work a lot with my clients on is is exactly that, like noticing, diminishing returns, noticing when your effort is not, is not being effective anymore. And so that's so great that you, you know that about yourself, and you know, what the things that you can do, instead of just messing around, like, you know, you can still do some things, which is going to make you feel better about yourself by the end of the day, like, oh, like, like all these other things that I did? Yeah, I may not have like, written more or drawn more, but I did make my space more usable,

Bob Shea 43:30

Which is another goal. Like it's one of the things so it's like, yeah, I can I can move piles around for the next hour from one spot to the next. Just which is another thing I can't I bet it. I can't see. I'm clutter-blind as well. Anyway, but uh, but yeah, that's, that's the thing is to just be easy. Go easy on yourself. And if you if you know that you're diligently trying don't like I'm like, yeah, they know. It's all working out. Okay, it's all from everything's for my benefit. So I don't mind it so much.

Hannah Choi 44:04

Yeah, that's great. And being able to do that self reflection is so important. And, and, and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and what's challenging, and how you can use both of those.

Bob Shea 44:17

Yeah, a lot of that, too. I mentioned before I'm a big meditator meditation has allowed me to understand my thoughts as they're happening, and to recognize thought patterns and be like, alright, I see what it is you're doing now. And you take your level you're a little distanced from you don't become your thoughts. You're able to like observe them and go, alright, you you don't want to do this. Why not? Yeah. And then think about what else can I do instead? And that lets me shift and then that way I'm not hooked on the well you back off other thought because I'm getting some dopamine from this Instagram and then I'm gonna ride this for a while.

Hannah Choi 45:05

So how do you? How did you get into meditation? And how do you keep yourself? How do you? How do you keep up with the practice?

Bob Shea 45:13

I, you know, my, my mother in the 70s was into back when it was a super popular thing. She was into Tm. It's a transcendental meditation because it was like on the Merv Griffin Show. You know,

Hannah Choi 45:26

I remember people talking about that when I was little.

Bob Shea 45:28

Yeah, you know, I was like, That guy was on TV all the time. It was super like it was a pop culture thing. And then she would do it, she went to some meditation thing, tried to get us boys to do it, we laughed, and we're like, I'm not doing this. We tried once. You can't make people meditate, you cannot make them do it. But I always remembered that she did you know. And so I think when I was like, in my 20s, I started doing it again, late, my late 20s, I did it. And I did it in a different way. I didn't do TM, but I would just do it with the real. And again, I had to do the ADHD, I'm like, You need to build this muscle of focus. And so I did it that way for a while. And it was fine. It was fine. It was good. I didn't really know what I was getting out of it. And then I started to use the Sam Harris app a couple of years ago. And that's really the thing where he walks you through why you're doing it and how to do it and all this stuff. And that and he's like, he comes at it from a point of view of not like it's a spiritual thing. It's other goes my my cuckoo clock to did let me know that an hour has passed in my head. So I have an understanding of time. I've 10 clocks all around the thing. I'm obsessed with clocks now. It's a good one. Yeah, and I'll let the bird keep talking for a second. There it goes. And that the keeping up on the practice is, all of these things work in tandem, I have to, I can tell when I'm eating poorly, if I'm not exercising, if I'm not doing meditation. Life's worse. Like even with the medication life's worse. So if I try to try to ride my bike in every day, I usually when I you know, and this is more of a habit forming than anything else. Usually what I'll do is when I get in right away, I'll sit and meditate. When I walk in the door, put my stuff down, sit on the cushion. There's on the app, it's a meditation everyday 20 minutes do it and it's over. Like when I wake up when I wake up. I try to write for a while. Then I'll exercise that I might go for a run. I'm in, meditate, set, it all sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have this wonderful thing. It's all it's all tension. It's all motivated by fear. So that's the foundation is fear. So but it all helps me stay focused a little bit.

Hannah Choi 47:54

Yeah, right. It's a fear of not feeling good, right? I feel a fear of failing, you know, those strategies are to help you be successful.

Bob Shea 48:02

I can feel better. I feel better. If I get sleep. I have to get enough sleep. And then I just I feel so much better. I'm so much more able to deal with things.

Hannah Choi 48:13

Yeah, I I really feel that with exercise. Like for me, I really need to exercise if I don't exercise then I tend to really beat myself up a lot. And when I exercise I'm much gentler myself. And I actually just ran a half marathon yesterday I ran the Fairfield half marathon. Yeah. It wasn't my first half marathon but was my first time during the Fairfield one. It was really fun. Two more questions for you. They're not long. What are you excited about?

Bob Shea 48:43

What am I excited about? Me personally? In the world? Because nothing

Hannah Choi 48:52

Okay, personally? Yeah, I know the world is awful, right? Personally

Bob Shea 48:59

I'm excited about my son's graduating high school, he's gonna go to college in the fall. I'm pretty excited about that. I'm, I'm doing I'm - because I do one thing at a time now. I'm doing some I have some good projects at the makerspace that I'm excited about. I'm excited, just even about running and riding my bike. I'm so excited that it's nice outside. It's all very simple things that I do. And I write down gratitude stuff at the end of the day. And it's always the same thing. It's always like my wife, something delicious, and out and my bicycle.

Hannah Choi 49:35

I have been keeping a gratitude journal for - I'm in my fifth year now. It has, I have to say like I think that has made one of the biggest impacts on my life.

Bob Shea 49:39

For real?

Hannah Choi 49:39

Oh, yeah. It's amazing

Bob Shea 49:42

Do you do it in the evening or in the morning to start your day and set your intention kind of thing.

Hannah Choi 49:54

Yeah, that's a great question. I do it in the evening and I also sometimes end up doing it in the morning for the previous day, because I forgot to do it. But what I have found, it has helped me so much with negative thinking. And, and I find myself throughout the day going, Oh, that's something I can write about. I automatically think that way now. And it also at the end of if I have like a particularly hard day, it forces me to look back on it in and look for the even if I can be grateful for the challenge of that hard day. I made it through or, or whatever, like my kids made me happy or, you know, something.

Bob Shea 50:43

This day is over. I'm grateful. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 50:47

During the pandemic, I often just wrote, "I'm just glad this day is over". Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing for me. So I'm glad you're doing it too. Yeah.

Bob Shea 50:58

That's good. I'll start to - I'm not mindful of things during the day. To to jot down that's a great idea. That's good. That brings it into the whole day.

Hannah Choi 51:08

Yeah, yeah, it's been really nice. And it's cool too, because the one that I use as a line a day journal, so it's actually got five years on each day. So I can look back on that, that day from the previous and so I'm in my fifth year now. So I can look back on on all of them before and it's really interesting to see that I do tend to be thankful for a lot of the same stuff. And so that makes me feel really good. Like, Oh, those are those are things that I should be doing. Like I do kickboxing, and I'm very often thankful for kickboxing. And, sadly, the place where we do it at is closing. But um

Bob Shea 51:43

Oh, really?

Hannah Choi 51:44

Yeah. It's a real bummer. But it's it is it's really nice to look back on that. And just, it's like evidence. I just I love looking for evidence. And there's a lot of evidence in that book.

Bob Shea 51:56

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Choi 51:59

All right, one more question. How do people find you even though you're not too much on social media?

Bob Shea 52:05

On social media, on Instagram, I'm Bob Shea books. And then I do have Bobshea.com. That's my books website. But those are really the two main places the main thing is is Instagram, @Bobsheabooks

Hannah Choi 52:22

and on your local children's library bookshelves.

Bob Shea 52:25

Oh, yeah, exactly. Wherever, from your local independent bookseller. Yeah, just go in and go in and demand my books. And if they don't carry them there, they usually have a display in the center of the store, like new releases or whatever. If they don't have it, just flip that over. Flip it over, run out.

Hannah Choi 52:45

Well, that's that's how we found you, my kids. When my kids were little, we can't remember how we maybe they had one of your books up on like the, like the top, they put like one of the books up on the top?

Bob Shea 52:56

And oh, okay. Yeah, good I hope so.

Hannah Choi 52:58

So every time we found out you had a new book, we are super excited. So thank you for being a part of my children's childhood.

Bob Shea 53:04

Oh, sure. Thank you.

Hannah Choi 53:08

All right. Well, thanks again, Bob. This is great. It's really interesting to hear different people's perspectives. And and I'm so glad that you found strategies that are working for you. And I wish you luck on figuring out long term strategy planning, I think that I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that you're very good at doing your daily stuff is probably why you ended up with only being two weeks late and not three months, like, Yeah, I think that daily practice, probably just made you more aware of time and just made you more productive at, you know, the only thing I was, I was wondering, do you work backwards? Like, do you ever do start at the finish? And then figure out like, Okay, well, I know that they want it, like this amount of time ahead of time. And then and then okay, that means it takes me usually takes me about five days to do whatever and then schedule that there. And then it's like, all of that, all of that time blindness that you're conquering, can be so useful, right? Because, you know, you know how long things take now. So then it makes it easier when you're working backwards to budget in time. So yes, yeah, I think take now,

Bob Shea 54:25

I would I, I know I should. I should do it that way. In fact, I used to use Gantt charts, you know, again, you know those things. So again, a Gantt chart. I, this is my pre ADHD like, I was so obsessed with them. Like I gotta come up with a way that I can do this. Basically, it's a timeline, and then you hang like a string that moves along with for every day. But on that chart, you have the different things that you're different tasks that have to get done, so you can see where you are and whatever tasks and then So But what ends up happening is you just keep moving the task, like the Gantt chart is, so that is a quick visual, like, if you have five things going on where you are and all those five things.

Hannah Choi 55:10

Yeah, that's cool.

Bob Shea 55:12

Yeah, no, yeah.

Hannah Choi 55:14

I recommend looking at how long things take you and trying to, trying to figure out and adding in buffer time and adding in time for all those variables that we can't predict.

Bob Shea 55:28

I do. I try to add 50% more than my guess. And I'm getting better at it, but not still can't do like I'm never spot on.

Hannah Choi 55:40

Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?

Bob Shea 55:43

I did. I did. That's where I got the sit down and meditate as soon as you come in.

Hannah Choi 55:47

Yeah. Habits stacking. Yeah, I was meant to. I meant to mention that earlier when you were talking about that. But I like his idea of just 1% better. It obviously adds up over time, like you have you have proof. You have proof that a little bit better does add up over time.

Bob Shea 56:05

Yeah. And then the other the other thing I do in the book with the boxes, the next day, I look at how I did the day before. And I go Yeah, you know, you kind of were messing around too much at this time. And you know, you went for that walk was longer than you thought. So then that day, I can be like, Yeah, that's what I say. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.

Hannah Choi 56:27

Yeah, that's so great. Oh, you're like a dream client. Oh my gosh.

Bob Shea 56:31

I'm too introspective.

Hannah Choi 56:34

Nah. No such thing. Well, thanks so much, Bob. This has been great.

Bob Shea 56:39

Thank you. That was fun.

Hannah Choi 56:43

And that's our show for today. I really hope that you had a chuckle and learn something useful from Bob. Or maybe you could just really relate to his story. More and more adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, so this feels like a really relatable and important story to share. Check out the show notes for a link to see some of Bob's time management strategies. And thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

In today’s episode, we’re looking at another set of helpful skills - especially for teens and young adults - and those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive function skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation, plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing, and responding to our emotions. I think this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn and also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our…well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age will have a hugely positive impact on our lives.

To learn more about emotional regulation and what coping skills might be particularly useful to teens and young adults, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area, to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know, it’s a mouthful and also something you may not have heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym but had no idea what it was, so I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie. DBT is related to CBT which you may have heard of before. If you haven’t, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. In this type of therapy, you learn to recognize negative or unhelpful thought patterns and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I’ll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills.

Here are some helpful resources from our conversation:

DBT® Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets, Second Edition, by Marsha Linehan

And Then They Stopped Talking to Me: Making Sense of Middle School by Judith Warner

Village Psychology - Jackie Wolfman’s practice

What Is Dialectical Behavior Therapy for Adolescents - The YouTube video I watched to learn more about DBT before I talked with Jackie

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

In the last episode, I spoke with Nadine Briggs about the connection between social skills and EF skills. We talked about different strategies and tools that kids and parents can use to develop these skills. In today's episode, we're looking at another set of skills that are helpful for kids, especially teens and young adults. And those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive functions skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing and then appropriately responding to our emotions. I think that this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn. And it's also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our...well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age can have a hugely positive impact on our lives.

To learn more about emotional regulation, and what coping skills might be particularly useful, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know it's a mouthful, and might also be something that you have not heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym, but I had no idea what it was. So I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie, you can check out the show notes for the stuff that I found. DBT is related to CBT, which you may have heard of before. And if you haven't, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. And in this type of therapy, you learn to recognize certain negative or unhelpful thought patterns, and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears, and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I'll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills. Okay, now on to the show.

Hi, Jackie, thanks for joining me today. And there's your dog! (dog barking in background)

Jackie Wolfman 02:57

Right on cue! Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here to talk with you.

Hannah Choi 03:03

Yeah. Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners a little bit?

Jackie Wolfman 03:07

Sure. So my name is Jackie Wolfman. I'm a clinical psychologist. And I've really focused my career on helping both college students and young adults in their early adulthood who might be struggling with anxiety, trauma, impulsivity, relationship difficulties, a whole host of things. And so, more recently, I founded a mental health private practice called Village Psychology that's dedicated to providing evidence based therapy groups, workshops and other programs to help college students and young adults really find relief from suffering and, you know, hopefully begin to create lives that they're truly excited about and really love. So, I spent 10 years in New York training and doing my education there. And then I moved to Boston about 10 years ago now, to do a postdoc in dialectical behavior therapy at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School. So that's where I got really the bulk of my DBT training, which I can talk about later. I'm certified, I'm a certified DBT clinician by the DBT Linehan Board of Certification. And I have a background in the arts. So I really like to think of myself as someone who tries to combine, you know, creativity and innovation and, you know, a strong grounding in science and evidence based practice to develop these programs, you know, to work with young people.

Hannah Choi 04:42

Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. Can you explain to our listeners what DBT is?

Jackie Wolfman 04:45

Absolutely. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy. It is a form of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy that includes a focus on individual therapy, on-call skills coaching, and also skills training groups, so groups where people are learning to develop coping skills in different areas.

Hannah Choi 05:12

So dialectical, that's not a word that you hear every day. Can you tell me a little bit about what it means and why it might be important?

Jackie Wolfman 05:19

Sure. So it's definitely important, it's the name of the therapy. And a dialectic really refers to this idea that we can have two things that seem like opposites, and they can both be true at the same time. So some different examples could be I am tough, and I am gentle. Or I like school and I don't like school. Right? And so, dialectics is important for a lot of reasons. One is that it really helps us get away from all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is either, you know, something like, I got an A on this test, or I'm a total failure, right? That would be all or nothing, or either you're my best friend, or you're my enemy. Right. And so when we get stuck in these all or nothing types of thought patterns, dialectics dialectics can help us find balance and move out of that. So maybe instead of, you know, either I get an A, or I'm a failure, it's something like, you know, that test was really hard for me, and I'm going to study in a different way next time, or I'm disappointed with how that went. And I can ask for help to see what I can do differently, right. So helping us find that middle ground, so that we're not stuck in these all or nothing types of ways of seeing ourselves or other people or even the world.

Hannah Choi 06:51

Something that has just been trending for me lately is this idea of identity and who we are. And so I imagine dialectical thinking is helpful in, in figuring out who our identity is, and how I imagine, like, you can say, like, like I did poorly on that test, and I'm still a good student, or whatever.

Jackie Wolfman 07:15

Absolutely, yeah, It really can inform how you talk to yourself about yourself, right? And then how you view yourself, and what different things mean to you that I can see this as a, you know, I did poorly on the test, or I didn't study as much as I could have is a problem that can be solved, right, that can be addressed. And you can also hold in your mind, like you're saying this idea that I'm still a good student, right. And I'm still smart. And I'm still curious and passionate about what I care about. So it's not just one or the other.

Hannah Choi 07:48

Who's a good candidate for DBT?

Jackie Wolfman 07:50

Yeah, so people come to DBT, to work on a range of difficulties, it was initially developed to work with people who are really at high risk of hurting themselves and having difficulties in a number of different areas. And since it's been expanded to apply to many different types of problems. But I would say a common factor in terms of people who come to DBT treatment and really benefit from it, or is some sort of difficulty with regulating their emotions. So that might look like anxiety, depression, it could be rapid mood changes, it could be feeling num or empty, impulsive behaviors, or really any combination of those.

Hannah Choi 08:34

Would you say there's, like I hadn't, I hadn't really heard of it. I mean, I'd seen the acronym. And I know about CBT. But I hadn't really didn't, I had to do a little research to learn about it myself, you find that people are, is there? Is there more awareness about it now? And also, is there a stigma about it if it used to be used for people who are at risk of hurting themselves, but now it could be for anybody really?

Jackie Wolfman 09:03

Yeah, I think there is increasing awareness about dialectical behavior therapy, and certainly has, you know, been considered really the gold standard for people who do have high risk behaviors, whether that's, you know, suicidal thoughts or self harm or other types of risky behaviors. And so sometimes people do have that question - "Is this really for me?" because I don't fit into that category. And so I think it just requires more education to tell people yes, it might be, you know, let's look at what the what the therapy offers and what you're looking for help with. And, you know, see if this if this makes sense, because, like you said, I mean, these are skills that I think pretty much we all could use. I mean, I use them all the time and continue to practice them. So it's not necessarily for everyone, but it really can benefit a wide range of people I think.

Hannah Choi 09:58

Yeah. So if you are if you are listening and you don't feel like you fall into the category of that, there are still lots of, what I'm getting is there are still a lot of coping skills and strategies that you might learn in DBT that can help. So it sounds like DBT is from the research that the reading that I did about it, and I watched a YouTube video, which was really helpful as well. Yeah. It sounds like it's very holistic, like it, it includes the families, the person who's the person who is at the highest risk the and their families. And then I love how the skills groups are involved. And then also, the skills practice and how, how available, you as the therapist are to the person who's in therapy, so that they can make sure that they are completely supported when they're trying to learn these new coping skills.

Jackie Wolfman 10:56

Yeah, so the, I think your you know, part of what you're talking about is what we call skills coaching, where your individual, usually your individual therapist, sometimes it could be the group therapist, but your therapist is available to you in between sessions for short, coaching calls. And this is because it's really one thing to learn the skills in the group. And that's terrific, but it's a whole nother thing to be able to apply them in the moment that you need it. And so sometimes that's during a therapy session, but most of our lives, were not in our therapy sessions, that might be for one hour a week at most, potentially. And so that's what the skills coaching is for that you can contact your therapist, you can say, "This is the problem I'm having, these are the emotions I'm feeling. This is my goal. This is what I've already tried." Usually, your therapist prompts you to answer these questions, of course, and what what else can I do, you know, help me figure out how to use these skills now when I really need it. And I just find that that really goes such a long way in terms of people's ability to use it and start to use them eventually more independently. So they don't necessarily need to call their therapist, but at first, it really makes just a world of difference and being able to apply the skills in the time that that you really need it.

Hannah Choi 12:09

So I imagine developing a really strong trust between your client and your therapy, the client and the therapist is really important, so that they feel comfortable reaching out because they I mean, I imagine they might feel like they're interrupting you.

Jackie Wolfman 12:23

Absolutely. So some people will say that, you know, oh, you know, isn't it hard to be on-call because people are calling you all the time. And actually, what I find is exactly what you're saying that actually people don't want to interrupt my life. They don't want to bother me, they don't know if it's worth it or you know, things like that. And so really, I have to help people encourage them to, to reach out. And you're absolutely right, the relationship between the therapist and the client is the most important thing in terms of really any therapy being successful, I think, because that's the foundation upon which you can do all the other work.

Hannah Choi 12:56

Yeah, I mean, we find the same thing with with executive function skills coaching. And we also do the same thing - we check in with our clients during the week. And I always encourage my clients to reach out like if you're struggling and you are like not sure what to do in a situation where you're trying to, I don't know, plan for the week or something, reach out! But you're right, people don't do it very often. So hopefully, anyone's listening, I hope they reach out to their therapist or reach out to their coaches now.

Jackie Wolfman 13:22

That's one of the skills to learn in practice really, is to be able to ask for help.

Hannah Choi 13:28

Yeah, I mean, even Yeah, that's definitely something that I've been working on and, and doing this podcast has actually been part of that, you know, like, have, I've had to ask for a lot of help. I've had to ask people to explain things that I don't understand. And it's, it's a scary thing to put yourself out there. But you can learn so much and grow so much.

Jackie Wolfman 13:49

Oh, absolutely.

Hannah Choi 13:50

That's great. So you said you work, um you do group? Like group? What do you call them group? Is it group therapy or group sessions?

Jackie Wolfman 14:03

You know, I do call it group therapy, because it is group therapy. But I also explained to people that a DBT group is in a lot of ways a little a little bit more like a class than other types of group therapy. So we there's different types of group therapy. And that can be benefit beneficial in different ways, you know, for different people at different times. But these groups that would the DBT skills, training groups, it really does, in some ways feel a little bit more like a class because there is a workbook, there's a curriculum on teaching a different skill each week, there's homework practice. So it's not an open ended discussion group, although there are many opportunities to connect and share with other group members. But it's much more structured.

Hannah Choi 14:45

And so do you. You offer these groups for young adults, right?

Jackie Wolfman 14:53

Yes, so I never know what to call, you know what young adult means? Because to some people that's too In other words, it's older so. So I have I have groups that are specifically for college students, which tend to be traditional college age, maybe 18 to 22. Ish. And then I also have separate groups, which I do call the young adult groups, but those are ages typically 22 to 30. Ish. I have both.

Hannah Choi 15:18

Yeah. Oh, that's great. And so what if? And I imagine there's also DBT, for kids who are in high school?

Jackie Wolfman 15:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I've done that as well. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 15:30

So speaking of kids who are in high school, I have a client right now who is graduating, and he's going to be going to college in the fall. And so it makes me think about what kids can do to kind of get ready for, for being a grown up. And, and and the differences that they're going to encounter when they get to school, and they're going to be away from their regular environment. Do you, do you ever work with kids prior to college?

Jackie Wolfman 16:01

I do. And in fact, I'm working on developing a more specific program for sort of like the pre-college prep, but from the mental health and wellness perspective, and to help people kind of identify what are the skills that they need to learn in practice before starting college.

Hannah Choi 16:25

Yeah, so what are they? What should people work on?

Jackie Wolfman 16:30

Yeah. So there's four main categories of skills that we cover in DBT. And I think those map on really well to some of the skills that are needed for college. So the core skill is mindfulness. And one of my favorite quotes about mindfulness is that it sounds simple. And it is, but it's not easy. So when I'm talking about mindfulness, I'm really talking about two things, your ability to focus your mind where you want it to go. Instead of, you know, feeling like you have no control over that. And also increasing awareness, both of what's going on around you, but really, also what's happening internally, your own thoughts and your own feelings. And so a mindfulness practice can be again, super simple, like for the next 30 to 60 seconds, notice whatever sounds you notice, it's a very simple practice. And if we start to do that, usually what we notice is it's not easy, it's really hard, right? I start thinking about when I'm going to have for lunch or a conversation I had yesterday, or all the things on my to do list, right to just kind of bring myself to the moment and focus on those sounds. It takes a lot of practice. And so I think it has a lot of applications for everyone, but in particular for college students, because they have so much going on, to be able to focus where you need to focus is a real challenge. And being able to identify what you're feeling in the moment has so many benefits for being able to figure out what else you need.

Hannah Choi 18:02

Yeah, and what's so interesting, like, if you look at sort of the brain science behind mindfulness and awareness of how we are feeling is the executive function skill of metacognition, and like, how can you like, can you figure out what you're feeling? And can you figure out like, why you do what you do and why you don't do what you do? And so that seems, and it's also the last executive function skill to develop, and the trajectory of the development of that. And so that's interesting, because that's about the time when people start to get better at that. So that's good timing. If you think about it from like, a brain science side of it.

Jackie Wolfman 18:42

Yeah. And I think it's something we can continue to develop our whole lives.

Hannah Choi 18:46

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, especially with how busy and pulled and how, in many directions people are being able to. Yeah, recognize how you're feeling and, and like you said, the attention piece of it is, so this can be so challenging when there's so much going on. Great. So what's the next the next core skill?

Jackie Wolfman 19:10

Yeah, so the next core core skill has to do with relationships. So in DBT, we call this interpersonal effectiveness. So really having strategies for maintaining relationships, while also being able to ask for what you need, whether that's asking for help, and saying no turning down a request and keeping your self respect. So being able to balance maintaining relationships with these two other factors of asking for what you need, and also saying no, are very important you can imagine for a college student.

Hannah Choi 19:47

Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about that, like asking you for what you need and also saying no, because in a way that's asking for what you need.

Jackie Wolfman 19:56

Yes, absolutely. So being able to identify and understand your own limits. And taking the risk to set them can be very hard to practice, especially we don't want to make people upset, or we're afraid people won't like us, or we just don't have practice doing that. But we've so many demands of college students, it can be really, really helpful to be able to say, You know what, I have all these things on my plate right now, I'm not going to take on this other thing, or to be able to say, you know, what, what you're asking you to do actually crosses my values. So I'm going to decline.

Hannah Choi 20:32

But you're saying reminds me of something I read in a book once? I think it was And Then They Stopped Talking to Me by Judith Warner. Oh, don't quote me on that. But anyway, if it is that book, she writes about how important it is for kids to check in with how they feel after they hang out with someone.

Jackie Wolfman 20:52

Yeah, I love that. Because I think so much of our focus can be on does the other person like me? How am I coming across, right? And we all might feel that way at times or a lot of the time. But they'd be able to kind of switch that narrative and ask, well, actually, how do I feel around this person? And is this someone I want to be spending time with? is really, really important to be able to, again, it's that mindfulness piece, I think of checking in with yourself and seeing how do I feel? What is my reaction?

Hannah Choi 21:19

Yeah, and checking in with you, and figuring that out, might give you the confidence that you need to say to the person No, I'm not comfortable doing this or asking for what you need. Great! So what's next? So excited?

Jackie Wolfman 21:35

Yeah. So next, we have emotion regulation. So emotion regulation has a lot to do with being able to identify emotions, and really understand what in the world they're doing there and what they're doing for you. So like, what is the function? What is the purpose? What good are emotions? So having some understanding of that, and then having some tools to change the emotion when that's your goal. So obviously, that's not always going to be the goal, there's often times where it's very useful to sit with your feelings, tolerate them experience them, but there are times where you do want to change the intensity of what you're feeling, or how long that it's lasting. And so this is also a very important skill for college students, when who might get very overwhelmed by exam week, or things going on socially, or, you know, conflict with family or whatever it might be dealing with a pandemic, right? There's just so many, so many things, affecting people every day. So having some tools to feel like, okay, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And I know some things that I can do to bring the intensity down. It can also apply to feeling numb or empty, right? If someone's feeling that lack of feeling or experiencing a lack of feeling, what can I do to get myself back into experiencing my, my emotions?

Hannah Choi 23:01

What strategies are do people find most useful for both of those situations?

Jackie Wolfman 23:06

Yeah, well, there's a really cool strategy in DBT, called opposite action. And basically, what that means is you identify what you're feeling, the feeling that you want to change, you identify what is the action urge, meaning, what is this emotion telling me to do? Right? Am I feeling angry? And I feel like yelling and screaming, am I feeling sad, and I want to climb in bed and pull the covers up over my head? What is the urge, and then you identify the opposite. And then you do that. And you're like, wow, so if I want to reduce feeling sad in the moment, and my urges to, you know, pull the covers over my head, if my goal is to change the feeling. If the goal is not to change my feeling, then, you know, go to bed and pull the covers over my head, there's a time and a place for that. But if my goal is to change the feeling that I would do the opposite, I would get active, I would be around other people, right? I would go for a brisk walk something like that. And that can really change how you're feeling.

Hannah Choi 24:06

I love that. And, gosh, I wish I had learned all these things when I remember being in college. And I think a lot of these strategies would have been really helpful.

Jackie Wolfman 24:15

No, I think that all the time. It would have been really nice to have some of these tools.

Hannah Choi 24:19

Okay, and then that was three. So what's the fourth?

Jackie Wolfman 24:23

So the fourth is called distress tolerance. And what this means is having skills for crisis or just really challenging situations where you can't fix it, or at least you can't solve it right away. But you don't want to do something to make it worse, right? Like we've all been in that situation where it's a tough situation, challenging situation and then you know, I go ahead and do something that just makes it all worse for myself. And so these are kind of what you think of usually what comes to mind when you think of like traditional coping skills like maybe distraction, maybe self soothing yourself in the moment because you can't solve it in that moment. But you can prevent yourself from doing something impulsive or risky or just, you know, not helpful, that sometimes, you know, we have those urges and those difficult moments because we want to fix it, or we don't want to feel that way anymore. So these are tools that can really help us to get through and even do well, in the most challenging situations.

Hannah Choi 25:24

So for kids who are going off to college, or who are kids who are in college, or anybody, really any adults, if they're listening, if if you don't have access to DBT, and you but you want to benefit from some of the strategies that are used in DBT, are there resources or ways to access that information that that people can find?

Jackie Wolfman 25:52

Yes, absolutely. So anyone can get the workbook it's, it's has both handouts that you can read through and then it has worksheets, so that gives you assignments, basically, of how to go and practice some of these skills. So and there's a lot of information online as well. And there are some free resources, I can send you some of that information, if you want to put it in the notes for people, but there's some nice resources for parents as well, to be able to get support around some of these skills so that they can kind of identify them and help their children to learn and practice them, as well.

Hannah Choi 26:32

And would you say there's like an optimal age to start this kind of stuff?

Jackie Wolfman 26:38

It's such an interesting question, because now there's DBT-C, which is for children. Right? So. So there's any age, I think, can benefit from these skills? I've certainly mostly, you know, most worked often with adolescents, you know, starting as young as 13, 14. On up, but I know there's lots of people doing good work with, with kids even younger.

Hannah Choi 27:04

So, what can parents do, like in addition to those resources, what can parents do to support their kids?

Jackie Wolfman 27:12

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing parents can do is, well, there's three things that parents can do, there's probably more but I would say parents can model, they can validate, and they can reinforce. So in terms of modeling, what I mean is parents can learn and practice some of these skills themselves. Because that will demonstrate to their children how to how to use some of these skills. And children learn from watching what their parents do when they're feeling strong emotions or having a difficult time. So I think that's a huge benefit. If you're learning and practicing these skills yourself, your children will benefit from that. The second skill for parents that I think is really, really core, to supporting college student high school students, and then who be them become college students is to learn and practice validation. So often, when children are younger parents are major problem solvers, right? They come in, they help their kids, they solve their problems for them to a large degree. But as kids get older, parents have less of a role in terms of problem solving, which can be a hard transition for parents. But it's an important one as their children get older and get more independent are going to be solving more problems on their own or with the help of others. So validation, is still something that parents can do. So reflecting back the emotions, or experiences or perspective of their child, communicating how their emotions and experience makes sense, and really providing that kind of warm, compassionate ear. While doing that they can say, you know, would you like some suggestions? Would you like some help with this? And if they say yes, offer them, but I think a lot of parents have had the experience of trying to jump in and, and solve the problem with some merit, very, some maybe very good ideas, but then their child is like "Naw, won't work, that don't work that well, you know, I don't want your help". Right. So I think validation is really, really, really important.

Hannah Choi 29:23

That's a that's a like a when, when we're working with a client who's new to coaching. We always ask first, like, Would you like, Would you like some ideas for this? And I think yeah, if someone says no, then they're not going to be receptive to it. If they say yes, then they're going to be receptive. And but if you don't ask, you don't know what you're gonna get, and you might end up ruining the relationship. Well, you're not ruining it.

Jackie Wolfman 29:50

But yeah, it becomes more challenging. You want to you want to kind of have that collaboration, that you're working on something together.

Hannah Choi 29:59

And it's hard as pair aren't too, cuz of course, we just want to fix everything for our kids. But it's it's got, especially when they're older, that's got to be up to them to be a part of it if they're if... I imagine that it is more effective if the child is like, "Yes, I want your help."

Jackie Wolfman 30:18

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, nobody wants to see their child suffering and in pain, and if there's something they can do to help solve it, you want to do it. And so sometimes I remind parents that validation is doing something, right? You're helping your child understand their experience, realize what makes sense about it. And then support them and figuring out what to do next.

Hannah Choi 30:42

What are some good questions that parents can ask in a situation where the child is really having a hard time?

Jackie Wolfman 30:50

Hmmm..."Tell me more about that." "It sounds like you're feeling blank. Is that right?" Right. So checking in with them. And I think, I think it's a good indication that you're being validating. If you get more information, right, if they're talking more, that's often a sign that they're feeling understood. So I think the simple questions are sometimes the most effective.

Hannah Choi 31:21

What you, one thing that you said, when you said, I think you're feeling this? Is that right? Reminds me of what previous guests of mine Sherry Fleydervish said, she said, "It's okay to be wrong. You know, it's okay to guess your child's feeling and be wrong". Because that can actually that can help them, figure it, help them figure out what they are feeling. And figuring out our feelings is a really big part of of that emotional regulation and awareness,

Jackie Wolfman 31:49

I completely agree, I can help them figure out what they're feeling. And also, it's the effort that matters, right? If I'm validating someone else, I don't have to get it right 100% of the time, but usually the other person, or at least when someone's validating me, I appreciate that they're trying. And if I say, you know, that's not quite it, and they say, Okay, it's all good, right? If they say, No, you are feeling what I think you're feeling, then it doesn't usually go that that great. But, you know, if you continue to roll with it, then then you know, I appreciate when someone's trying, they don't have to get it perfectly.

Hannah Choi 32:23

Yeah, so if you're the person who's validating someone else, you have to be okay with possibly being wrong. Exactly. Yeah. And then, and then allowing yourself to be wrong in that moment, and letting them tell you, hopefully, they'll tell you what they are feeling.

Jackie Wolfman 32:37

Exactly right. And then going with that. And even as a therapist, I do this, right. So I might, I might have missed the mark on something and then I and then I'll say, oh, okay, you know, help me understand what did I miss? And go from there?

Hannah Choi 32:50

Yeah, and it really helps them figure it out, I'm sure. Cool. And what's the third thing?

Jackie Wolfman 32:57

So, reinforce, so this means catching your child doing something effective, and pointing it out? Right. So in whatever way you think if you know your, you know, your child, they would respond to so noticing them using a skill, a coping skill, and maybe mentioning that, like I noticed, when you had an argument with your friend, you really took some time to think about what you were going to say before you texted them back back. And I you know, I really think that helped you communicate your point of view more clearly, right? Something like, you know, can be very simple. But to be able to notice them using a skill and then support that either by pointing it out by to being specific about what you think the benefit was. Maybe just gently noticing it, right? So anything like that, where you're you're focusing on drawing out those positive coping skills can be very supportive.

Hannah Choi 33:54

And that's very cool. So I imagine that in DBT, the parent portion of it is maybe bigger than in other in other types of therapy. Am I right?

Jackie Wolfman 34:08

Yes, especially with adolescents. So there are some DBT groups where you have adolescents in their own group and parents in their own group. And there are other groups where the adolescents and their parents are together and what we call multifamily groups. So you have multiple families in the same group, and everyone is learning and practicing the skills together. So it really reinforces this idea that this is not just for the student. This is also for the parents to be learning and practicing these skills as well and really working together. There also can be DBT parent guidance where parents or caregivers are meeting with a DBT therapists themselves to get help and coaching on how to use the skills with their children. So it does tend to be a big part of the treatment especially with younger folks.

Hannah Choi 35:02

And I imagine that if a if a child is at high risk than their parents are probably going to want to be involved.

Jackie Wolfman 35:12

Yes, yes. Yeah, it's absolutely important.

Hannah Choi 35:17

Yeah, we even see that in coaching kids, we have coaching coordinators, which are the family connection. So that the coach works with the client. And then the coaching coordinator works with the families and answers any questions that they have. And yeah, it's not like full on coaching sessions, but they're available to help, you know, parents understand the process of change, and you know, why their child might be resisting, or you know, just how the coach is approaching?

Jackie Wolfman 35:48

Yeah, that's so important, because I think how parents understand their child's behavior really informs how they respond to their child, and just having a different understanding of what might be going on might really make a big change. And I think I've seen a lot of parents really appreciate that to be able to, you know, be given some different perspective on what's going on.

Hannah Choi 36:09

Yeah, especially when you as the parent can't relate to the child's behaviors, their just approach to life. Like if you're really different from them, yeah, it's nice to have to feel like you're being supported as well. So you can really support your child.

Jackie Wolfman 36:23

Yeah, yeah, I see that a lot as well.

Hannah Choi 36:26

Great. So speaking of executive function, would you would you say do you see? I mean, we know the research shows that there is a connection between executive function skills challenges and Melton mental health. Do you see? How does that show up in your practice?

Jackie Wolfman 36:45

I see it in my practice, because I see people come to work with me, because they're having difficulty with their emotions, or trouble in relationships, or other types of behaviors that they want to work on, that have been getting in their way. And then it comes to light, but they may also have ADHD, or that they're having a hard time organizing themselves. And that's part of what's maybe increasing their anxiety about their classes, or, you know, being able to maintain an internship. And so there's just and there's also a lot of overlap, I think, between things that you can see with executive functioning difficulties and some different mental health diagnoses. So you know, difficulty focusing cognitive difficulties, impulsivity. And so some of the skills that were initially maybe developed to help people with their moods or their emotions can also really help people who are having these types of executive functioning difficulties too, because a lot of the there's just so much overlap there. But I think the emphasis that we have in DBT on emotions can be very helpful, because when emotions are high, we all know, it's much more difficult to think clearly. And we think very differently, emotions are lower. And so having those tools to reduce the intensity of what you're feeling, understand it not feel like you're crazy for having these reactions can then help you think more clearly, and, you know, execute some of those skills much more effectively than when emotions are high and running the show.

Hannah Choi 38:27

I just, I just recently sat down with Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and, yeah, it was great. And she and she said something in her book, which really, really resonated with me and, and she said it, once you know the executive function skills, areas that you struggle with, if you notice that you are really struggling with them, and those things are really giving you a hard time, it's, it's a sign that you need to stop and pay attention to what's going on. And maybe you have too much on your plate, or maybe there's like a larger thing that needs to be addressed. And I just loved that, that advice and I use it for myself all the time. Like I have a terrible memory as the listeners now I've talked about this before and I noticed when I'm when I'm extra forgetful, I know that it means that I just have too much going on and I need to do something I need to do something needs to change.

Jackie Wolfman 39:22

I love that this idea that that it's telling you something important that you need to pay attention to. And I think emotions act in a similar way, right? Like what is this emotion telling me what is what is? What is it signaling to me about myself or the situation that I'm in? And then we know that can help figure out what to do from there.

Hannah Choi 39:42

Yeah, there's so much so much evidence and information and in our behaviors and are, how we feel. Yeah, I love it. I really approach my coaching that way. Like I love to ask "why?", like, let's really ask why. And you can ask why and get one answer and then you can ask why again for the whatever answer that was, and then you kind of really get down to the, the base of it. Like what's really, really, really going on? It reminds me of my parents used to call me the "why bird" when I was little because I asked why all the time? Practicing. Practicing for now.

Jackie Wolfman 40:19

Yeah, being curious.

Hannah Choi 40:20

Yeah, being curious is so it's such a, it can be a difficult thing to do because sometimes you don't like the answer you come up with. But it's so informative and just can really change your life. Yeah. So yeah. So you have anything else that you want to share, anything else that you think our listeners would, would benefit from?

Jackie Wolfman 40:46

I think one thing is that if you're going to be starting practicing some of these skills, to start with what feels easiest, start with something that you're drawn to. It doesn't have to be the biggest, most difficult thing that you can tackle at first. And like we said earlier, it's okay to make mistakes. And it's not always going to be easy. So I think, you know, that's something that's important to communicate. And, and really, just to having that respect for your own emotions and feelings and noticing if you're someone who judges yourself a lot for how you feel that that is also going to be an important thing to work on to really try to get back to that validation. Even that self validation of what is this I'm feeling and how does it actually make sense? Even when I feel like I don't like?

Hannah Choi 41:37

Yeah, it was it Walt Whitman, who said, Be curious, without judgment or something like, I'm sure whoever it was much more eloquent than that. But yeah, that's great. That's great advice. I guess, if you're just trying to change, do anything new, it's good to start with something that is small and feels like something that you're interested in that I don't think any change has ever been made by chewing, biting off the biggest piece and, and trying to make it happen. Yeah. All in all at once. That's great. And do you have anything going on that you're excited about?

Jackie Wolfman 42:14

I do. So next summer, we're going to be starting the pre-college, mental health prep. And then also coming up this fall, in addition to the DBT groups, I'm developing groups for those same age group range, so the college students and then the young adults up to age 30, groups for anxiety, and then a group for trauma. So I'm really excited to add those groups to what we're doing. Because I really believe in group therapy. And that experience is being so helpful for people and just really adding that extra support, in addition to you know, maybe their individual therapy that they have every week.

Hannah Choi 42:54

Have you noticed any change? I mean, you've been you've been in the business for a while now, have you noticed any change over the years with people's openness to therapy and talking about therapy?

Jackie Wolfman 43:07

I have, I think people have become more open to talking about therapy and willing to share that they're in therapy with other people. And I think even you know, maybe in part because of the pandemic, and how pervasive the difficulties with isolation have been for so many of us that it's it feels a little bit less stigmatized to ask for help around these things, because we just see so many people around us struggling in different ways. So, you know, it's it's possible that that has been helpful in that sense in terms of maybe reducing some stigma around it.

Hannah Choi 43:48

Have, do you notice a difference in the kids who are in your groups today post pandemic as compared to the kids that were in your groups before?

Jackie Wolfman 43:57

I think I think that just the real emphasis on feeling isolated, or feeling like things aren't going according to plan. Because they're not that you know, none of us expected this or planned for this or wanted this. So those are kinds of the themes that come up now that weren't as, that did come up before but weren't as strong before, that there was sort of this expectation of go to college I would spend a certain amount of time there. I would have my full senior year. I get to be with my friends right. And now there's just a such a uncertainty about the present and the future that is really hard to manage.

Hannah Choi 44:40

I was just want thinking like I wonder if maybe it maybe you've noticed this but I wonder if there's so this going through the pandemic is this collective shared experience that we've all had, and it is a form of trauma, right? Because it's like this small repeated exposure to difficult things over and over and over. And and I wonder if groups, people within groups therapy groups feel closer than they did before the pandemic? Because everyone's gone through the shared experience. I mean, I don't know if there's any way to measure that. But would you say?

Jackie Wolfman 45:16

I don't know. But anecdotally, I would agree, because I think it can be very validating to be in a space with people who have gone through similar things, which is what I hear a lot about the college groups that people really like, being in a group with other college students because of that shared experience. And because you're seeing that you're not alone with some of the things that you're struggling with. And if there's other people who are similar to you, in some ways, who might also be struggling. And so I think having that shared experience can be very validating, and comforting. And I do see people more seeking out groups, because they're looking for that connection with other people.

Hannah Choi 45:54

Yeah, right, right. And how wonderful is that they get the they get the social connection, and they get the side benefit of, or the side benefit of the social connection and the skills, the skills that they're learning with them.

46:05

Yeah, I think they're equally important, I really do being able to connect with other people and, and differentiate, you know, where we're different and where we're similar and have those types of conversations. There's not always a ton of spaces where we can do that. So it's really fun, actually, to be able to provide that. Because it's very helpful and supportive and exciting when you see people using skills. And then it's not just me as a therapist who's encouraging them. But you they start to encourage each other and rely on each other for, you know, being more skillful using more of these tools. And it's just, it's really fun to see that develop.

Hannah Choi 46:42

And Jackie, can you share with our listeners where they can find you and more about your work?

Jackie Wolfman 46:48

Absolutely. So they can go to the Village Psychology website, which is villagepsych.com. So it's village p-s-y-c-h.com. And you'll find a lot of more information about the groups that we offer, my background and also ways to get in touch.

Hannah Choi 47:05

All right. Well, thanks so much, Jackie. I'm so glad you were here today. And you shared everything with us. This has been really, really fascinating and really interesting. I'd love to have you back to talk about more.

Jackie Wolfman 47:16

Thanks so much for having me. I'd love to come back.

Hannah Choi 47:20

And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Jackie, thank you so much for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. Jackie is about to have her first baby so we send her all the best wishes from Beyond BookSmart. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Something we've wanted to explore more deeply on the show is how much of an impact Executive Function skills can have on our social lives. All of those EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs - a social skills expert. CEO of Simply Social Kids, and mother of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joined me to talk about how social skills and executive function skills are connected and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and ability to function in the world. We also dive into the importance of building resilience and explore some practical strategies to develop a mindset that allows us to overcome the inevitable challenges and roadblocks we face in life.

Related Resources

Simply Social Kids - Nadine’s social skills company website

Your Kids Can Achieve Social Success this Summer (With Your Help)!

ConversationHQ - Conversation starter resource

Resilience Training: How to Master Mental Toughness and Thrive

The Social Executive Function Skills That Elude Kids with ADHD

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

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Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Something I find very interesting is how interconnected these EF skills are with every single aspect of our lives. We feel their effects at school, at work and at home. If we struggle with organization, our backpacks or kitchen counters might be classified as disaster zones. If our working memory is not strong, we may forget that we have a quiz today or forget to go to the grocery store after we go to the gym. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for us, coming up with an essay topic or figuring out a different way to get to work when the car won't start might feel impossible. And what we mostly read about and hear about is how these EF skill challenges affect our academic performance or affect how we work or manage our homes and families. And something that I wanted to explore more deeply is how much of an impact executive function skills can have on our social lives. All of these EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard, can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships.

To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs, who is a social skills expert, and also a mom of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joins me to talk about exactly this, how social skills and executive function skills are connected, and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and our ability to function in the world. Life is short, and it can be a lot more fun with friends. So taking the time to do a little bit here and there to improve our social skills through working on our executive function skills can make a huge difference. Hmm, okay, well, this is easy for me to say as an extrovert. You might be listening to me and rolling your eyes thinking No thanks. I'll just stay at home and snuggle with my Netflix. But hear me out because you introverts might have a partner or kids who have more social needs than you. And this episode is packed full of really useful tips and strategies to help both ourselves and our kids, find more meaningful interactions with people and hopefully make and maintain friendships that enrich our lives. Okay, so onto the show. Hi, Nadine, thanks so much for joining me today.

Nadine Briggs 02:43

Thanks for having me.

Hannah Choi 02:45

Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Nadine Briggs 02:48

Sure. I'm Nadine Griggs, I'm CEO of Simply Social Kids. And we have a social skills program where we work with ages eight to 28. And we have our in-person groups that are in Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but we also have an online program for people who are not in our local area. We run weekly social skills groups to help them to make friend connections and just learn how to be more social.

Hannah Choi 03:09

That's great. So I guess through the lens that I'm always looking through is executive function skills, and maybe you know, kids with ADHD, anxiety, high functioning autism, how are those kids empower the social skills of those kids impacted?

Nadine Briggs 03:29

That's exactly who we work with - kids with high functioning autism, ADHD, anxiety, or just general awkwardness. They might not have a diagnosis at all, they just can't quite make friends. And they do struggle a lot. Because a lot of times, they're not able to really figure out how to initiate a social interaction, or they don't know how to get together with people like they want to hang out. And I usually and we'll talk mostly about teenagers today, I think in terms of that's, that's kind of the population that is struggling a lot with this. Because they're, they're no longer relying on their parents to schedule their playdates for them. And so it's really hard. They, they need the help, but they don't really know how to get that help. And they don't know how to initiate. So what often happens with teenagers is they're just alone. And they and they don't know how to get get out of their own way in that, in that sense. They don't know how to schedule time with other people. And some of the parents I've talked to more recently, we've had conversations about how they think that their kids are okay alone. And that's actually not true at all. They're not okay alone. They're really lonely. They just don't know how to initiate getting together with people. Or they might do it and it's a little bit awkward, or they don't have anybody they even know what a call or they're anxious about calling people. You know, a lot of times kids will say to me, he'll say, you know, what do you do over the weekend, they'll say, oh, I didn't do anything. And then they'll say, you know, nobody ever calls me to do anything with them. And I'll always ask them, Well, how many people did you call to do something with and when I flip that script, they always say no one because they just don't know how to really organize that and get that going for them and, and reach out to people. And they, a lot of it is their, their memory like they don't think about it, they forget, if I say, you know, a lot of times I'll write on the on the whiteboard at my center, I'll write up "text somebody on the drive home today". So it's fresh in their minds, or you know, is they don't think about it, and they then they get upset that they don't have anything going on. So it's kind of this lack of, of action that they they struggle with. So that's a huge piece.

Hannah Choi 05:29

Something that you said earlier, makes makes me think about, like you said, so up until the teenage years, or maybe tweens, parents have been the people that have helped them set up playdates and purely just because kids don't have little kids don't have phones, they don't have ways to, you know, to connect with their friends. So they need to use their parents, how can we - What are some things that we can do as parents to help kids shift from a from us, arranging those playdates to them, arranging them?

Nadine Briggs 06:03

This is where smartphones are really helpful for that, you know, one of the things that we suggest to parents a lot is just to create, like a social plan for your kid with your kid, I should say, not for your kid, because when you create a social plan, basically you sit down with your your teen and you say, How often would you like to see people? You know, you might have a kid on the spectrum who's fine with once a month or you know, a couple times a month might be fine. Or maybe when they do get together? It's a shorter amount of time than somebody who didn't have that diagnosis, they get they do get some social fatigue sometimes. So maybe it's a couple hours, rather than a four hour thing? Is it just how often should they get together? And then figure out okay, well, let's let's put something kind of in our minds or on the calendar of every other Friday or every other weekend, we're going to try to do something with people. See, you have that structure of in a month, this is how often I'm going to see people or, or maybe look at the clubs that are offered at their middle schools and high schools and say, Oh, how many of these do you think we should sign up for? And then kind of get again, getting those things on the calendar? You know, I think that's really important to figure that part out, well, how much socialization do we need? And then thinking about it? Who would I socialize with, who's who's kind of my shortlist of people, a lot of times, I'll take a, you just do like a circle within a circle within a circle kind of a diagram. With kids I work with, it's okay, who's in that inner inner circle? Who is in that next circle out that maybe you want to bring into your Inner Inner Circle and kind of create that list of people. So you have a focus of, I'm going to focus on this one to three people rather than, you know, 12 people here to give it something a little bit more manageable for them to focus on those people? And then figure out well, what do they like to do? You know, how do we get together with them? Where do I see them most often? Am I on a sports team with them? Are they in my class? You know, are they in scouts with me, you know, what, where do I see this person, and then start to figure out how you can spend time with that person and share like interest with them. So kind of chunking it down into smaller pieces, just like you would do with academic stuff, or executive functioning right and make it feel more manageable. If it's if it's too much, if you're trying to be friends with like everybody at the lunch table, rather than just the people on either side of you, that's when that anxiety can kick in. And once that happens, then they start to act out a little bit, they might either they might shut down. Or they might get overly silly, he might want to try to be really funny and humorous, and really show off he kind of thing. And when that happens, that puts people off too. And so when that starts to kick in, we get all sorts of things happen. And so we're trying to keep them them calm and just, you know, think about it more in a more organized fashion. And they just to be more deliberate in those ways, I think, yeah, right.

Hannah Choi 08:53

I had never really thought about that. Like, this is sounds silly. Again, it's switching gears a little bit to adults, but like my husband and I have very opposite social demands, needs. Like I'm very social, and he prefers to not socialize as much. And so I love that idea of sitting down and kind of breaking down like, well, this is what I need. And this is how I can reach that. And this is what you need and how you can reach that. So I imagine with within families that, that that does happen a lot, but between kids and parents and between siblings as well. So maybe everyone sitting down and doing a social plan and seeing how the family plans can fulfill that need for some people. And and maybe family plans won't fulfill that need for one of the kids and they need to have additional, like additional social interaction with friends or I mean

Nadine Briggs 09:46

you bring up a great point too, because a lot of the the apples don't fall too far from the tree sometimes. And so you might have parents who are really not that social. In here you have a kid who's not that social and they don't have any more of an idea how to help their child with socialization because they're not particularly social people. And that's where it you know, obviously having a social skills coach and getting some outside help can really be beneficial because they don't know how, and they don't know what's getting in their way.

Hannah Choi 10:12

Right? That's so interesting. Yeah. And so if their parents aren't comfortable with it themselves, and they're not going to be, it's going to be difficult for them to help

Nadine Briggs 10:22

Their kids don't have that role model. They don't if their parents don't have friends over for barbecues and things on the weekend, they're not seeing that, how that should look Yeah. So they're not really getting that in the home. Right. So they may be getting that at school. It depends who they're hanging out with at school, if that's a good role model, and maybe not a good role model.

Hannah Choi 10:42

Yeah, that's so interesting. I was just talking with my niece the other day, and we were asking her, and she doesn't have any siblings, and we're asking her how she felt about school ending. And she said that she was glad it was ending, because you know, it's tiring, school is tiring. She's in fifth grade. But then she said, but I'm going to be lonely, because I'm not going to be able to be with my friends all the time. And so and, and her mom is not she is a social person, but she's not super social. So I, I imagine that, that it's, yeah, I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here.

Nadine Briggs 11:19

It still might be a little bit on her to kind of say, Yeah, I'd like to meet some friends at the park or go to a, you know, an amusement park or mini golf. And, you know, in all those things in the summer, which are great ways to get together with people. But yeah, it is, it's very difficult if the parent isn't that social. And like I always suggest to parents to kind of think about where you might go, and then invite a bunch of people to join you at that date and time. And you might go and no one shows or you might go and maybe a few people come a park or something just saying we're going to be there's a park called Friendship Park near us and thinking about friendship. So it comes to my Friendship Park, you know, three o'clock on Saturday, you know, who wants to come and you hope you other kids will be there. But then you don't really have that pressure of, I've asked this one person and me. So they could just show up at the same time. I used to do that a lot with my kids when they were little, like so we're all going to go to the movies at this time on this day. Who wants to come with us? You know, we're going to be in this we're going to be in this row. That was before you had to really Yeah, exactly. No know, but then that we would just other people like, yeah, we'll meet you there, you know, and it would took a little bit of the pressure off of, you know, inviting those individual person and then having them reject you.

Hannah Choi 12:35

Yeah, right. I love that. And I love what you what you said about how you can use like the same skills that you use to break down academics into smaller chunks, you can apply that to social skills. So what are some other ways that kids can work on, maybe not work on their executive function skills, but use their emerging executive function skills to support their social skill development?

Nadine Briggs 13:01

You know, one of the big issues is the the memory challenge. A lot of these guys don't have great memory. And, and that's a problem because you think about when you socialize with somebody, let's say you're gonna go to, you're gonna go to the market, you're gonna bump into somebody you haven't seen in several months. Right away, you're gonna go, your mind is gonna go okay, what do I know about this person? What I know about their life? What is the last time I saw them? What was going on with them? And you're filtering that out? Geez, what was the thing that I just last knew about them? And you might have maybe their kids studied abroad, or you know, to ask, Oh, how was Italy or something, you'll remember those things. Kids who have that, that challenge. They don't necessarily remember those things about people. So they don't know how to find that information about that person, retrieve it, and come up with it. And so, a lot of times what we'll do, if that's a random example, that you're going to bump into somebody at the market, but if you're going to get together with somebody you haven't seen in a while, spend some time deliberately thinking about what you remember about that person. Give yourself that opportunity to say, All right, I'm gonna get together with Susie, what do I know about Susie? Susie just got a new puppy. You know, last time I saw her. Okay, well, let's ask about the puppy. Those types of things. So I think they need to think about some of that stuff before they go. And then sometimes even to, to prepare them for socializing. They can put a few little notes in their phone and the contact for that person likes Fortnight, you know, just got a puppy, whatever information they have about that person. Now they have to remember to put the note in the phones. So we can have that challenge. Yeah, that is a great way to have just a couple little things. I'm not gonna put a big dossier on the person your phone, there's a couple little things about them, and then even go through like a conversation starter website. There's one that we like called Conversation HQ. And I'll see the kids just scroll through the conversation starters on conversation HQ. And don't ask them verbatim and say "where do you where would you be five years from now?" or whatever it is, like, look through them and find one that is something you might actually say. Or maybe it triggers something that you can change it to something you'd actually say. So it's not that you're going to sit there. And you're basically, you know, interview the person with all these conversation starters, you're going to just kind of get ideas for what you might want to talk about. And then you use it in your own words, using your own language so that it's more natural for you. And it's something that you'd actually say, but you have those topics in your head. Right, like, like it, let's say they love nature. And we had a, I don't know, the meteor shower the other night, which it was cloudy where I was, and then we got to see it. And let's say that, you know, you've had that conversation with somebody, they also like space, right? You could say, "Hey, you happen to catch the meteor shower." "Oh, it was cloudy near me." Did you happen to see it? Or do you think there's life on other planets, you start to get in a conversation perhaps like that, if that's something you know, that they like, I wouldn't just randomly walk up to somebody, and say "Do you believe in life on other planets?" But if that's your thing, you just start so they go through and you might scroll, scroll through a lot of them before you have some that are something you like. And if you think you'll forget, put a couple little notes in your phone. And on the drive there, review some some of the notes that you have about that person to help spark those memories for them.

Hannah Choi 16:17

It reminds me of like test prep, right, like getting ready for tests, prior knowledge and like doing a little research. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. It actually reminds me, I remember my husband once. He was he said to me, oh, yeah, I was just thinking, we're getting together with so and so you know, tonight or whatever. And so he was he was trying to remember like, what sports teams that that person liked. And he was reading up on the articles about the those teams.

Nadine Briggs 16:52

Yeah, it helps. Because then you're, then you feel less anxious. And you might not end up even talking about sports. But that helps your anxiety. Yeah, kind of, you're in check. You feel more prepared that you've I mean, I believe because I'm a very social person, I'm a lot, My husband and I are a lot like you and your husband. I'm the social one. He said, "you just saw people, do you really need to see people again?"

Hannah Choi 17:12

Yes, yes, I do.

Nadine Briggs 17:14

You know, but I don't even do that. If I'm gonna go to a barbecue where maybe I only know the people hosting it. And I might know of the other people and seeing them in a while, or I know them, but I'm not really friends with them. And we're just more acquaintances, you know, I will do the same thing and start to think what do I know about that person? What is last time I saw them? What are some things I might be able to talk to that person about and prepare myself so that I don't feel uncomfortable going to a place where I don't really know that many people? So I think it's a pretty good strategy and for, for kids with executive functioning challenges, I think that it calms their anxiety and it prepares them with some topics, and they can even make some notes in their phone and just go to the bathroom and review. me look at my notes on some kids might do. It's I work with, you have to tell them to not necessarily, yeah, do it verbatim, or they write a little bit black and white in their thinking and a little bit literal. So you have to tell them, it just wouldn't just go to the bathroom and take a look at your notes in there. Don't do it in front of the person. Yeah, believe it or not, that's one of the things we need to do is just connect those dots that are obvious to other people aren't necessarily obvious to the people that we work with. So we have to say things that aren't normally said out loud, like things like that.

Hannah Choi 18:25

Right? Right. But how wonderful that you're teaching the kids that and because if they're if they don't have anyone in their life that either feels comfortable telling them that or it just doesn't, they just don't know what to tell them that then then that's, that's so great. And I'm sure that they feel comfortable with you telling them that because you've created a safe space and, and they're, you know, they're

18:48

That relationship with the kid is really important, because we are the ones if they tell a joke that's not funny, you know, we're not going to do the polite laugh. Yeah. And that's what most people will do is it's my job to not do the polite laugh. And to tell you why that feels funny, because most people will do that, especially if they're feeling uncomfortable. They, you know, the social norm is to just laugh a little bit and hope they stop talking about the thing that's, you know, that's creepy, or whatever the topic is that they're talking about. And, you know, it's, it's our job to say, that's not a great thing to talk about with your friends. And so you do have to have a good relationship with somebody before you can be that brutally honest with them. Yeah. Right. And, and then they know that what the role is to it, they know that all our goal is is to help them make those connections so they can have those deep, meaningful friendships and not be lonely anymore. Yeah. And so once they know that, and that's what our motivation is, and they take it really well. I mean, they're great about it, and they, they do apply it to their lives. Sometimes they need to be reminded because they do have difficulty sometimes taking it on themselves taking responsibility for what they do. And so a lot of times we'll preface it by saying, are you ready to take what I'm about to tell you and apply it to your own life? Sometimes if we just prime them with that, then you get that buy in Yes, I'm about to take what you say and apply it to my own life, then that then you they're ready to receive what you're saying and really take it in. In sometimes that's needed for some kids.

Hannah Choi 20:17

And we do that with coaching to write like you like, you always just have to meet someone where they are. And you have to find out like, like, are you ready for this? Is this Yeah? Is this something that like you said, are you ready to take it on? So how can so so your you know, your, the social skills work that you do with your clients happens, like, like, they take that with them home, and they practice it, practice it at home, I'm sure how can parents support their kids that are that might be socially awkward, and might need to be working on these skills.

Nadine Briggs 20:51

Yeah, they practice it in our program, too, which I think is a big piece of it, because we coach them in the moment. So we teach them and then they get to, they hang out with other people their age, that they practice it there. So for parents, you know, there's an education for a lot of them, if they're, if they're naturally social, they're probably already coaching their kids quite well, because they know how to be social. If they're not, though, and they tend to be a little bit awkward. Either leave it to the professionals, or, or study up on it, there's a lot of really great books, there's a lot of, you know, good podcasts, and there's different resources and, and take that on as something that they need to educate themselves on. And they might need to look at all the different types of things that we would coach on, like conversation skills, flexibility, you know, perspective taking, not trying to control what other people do. And that's a biggie, and all the different pieces that go into socialization and figure out what are the things that your their kids struggle with the most, and then study those things, and help them with those things. Because again, trying to tackle everything at once is really hard. Social skills is vast, there are so many different pieces to socialization. And we coach on social skills, but also resiliency. And that's a whole other big topic of that. But I think they need that as well, because they do get some level of rejection in their lives. And they need to be able to bounce back from that. But they have to study up on it, and then help them apply it to their own lives and even have them apply, have the parents become more social too

Hannah Choi 22:15

Yeah, it might even help and might help them might help the parents.

Nadine Briggs 22:19

It's funny. We have a parent support group that we run for people who are enrolled in our program, they're welcome to come on every week for an hour. And we've had people come on who make friends with other people, as parents, and I'd had I'd one day I had this dad come sit at my desk and the nicest funniest dad, he's such a great guy, I mean, of all the people you want to be friends with, and you'd want to go out and have a beer with this guy. He's just that person. And he sat at my desk. And he said, Nadine, I gotta tell you, I don't have any friends. Oh, and it broke my heart. Of all the people in my program of all the parents who would have friends, it would be this guy. It's like, I feel I feel jealous of my wife. She's got friends from college, and they go what every Friday night and, and I sit home and my kids a teenager, and he's, he's in his room. And he doesn't talk to me and sit there by myself. But you know, we talked about how he could get out and you join like, the Lions Club or Kiwanis, or get involved in community service and, and get himself out there to meet people and socialized you, which is also going to give you know more of a role model for his kid who needed that.

Hannah Choi 23:26

Hmm. So was he able to?

23:28

He did, he did, he actually became friends with another dad, in our program. So we had before the pandemic, we had a parent waiting room, where they were able to socialize. And that was good for the parents to make friends with each other. And actually, what used to happen then, too, is I would go back and I would tell them what we did in the group, the lesson that we taught to all of the parents and they would talk about it themselves. Now we have to write a summary because I'm not allowing as many people in the building, but they still they get the lessons that we do in person that we tell them what we did and what we coached on. So then they can carry that forward with their kids. And they're using the same language and all of that, because they have it all in a written report every week. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 24:08

So something you said earlier, it makes me realize, but it really is so clear how connected executive function skills are to social skills, like the perspective taking and cognitive flexibility and emotional regulation. Those are really, really tied together. So I guess, I guess when kids are practicing working on their social skills, they are going to naturally end up working on executive function skills. And do you think the reverse happens like when kids work specifically on executive function skills, maybe in school or with a coach like if they're in executive function coaching, do you think then it then has a positive impact on their social skills?

Nadine Briggs 24:47

I absolutely do because you think about just even just taking like tasks and initiation. One of the biggest struggles with the kids that I work with is just going over to somebody and starting a conversation, right? They don't know how to do that. And so they tend not to do that. And even getting together, like I said, you know, here comes summer with all this fun stuff to do, let's say they all want to go to like an amusement park, you know, being able to kind of figure out all the details around that, and get that off the ground. So they actually go and it actually happens, you know, they're, they're using all kinds of executive functioning skills for that. So some of the kids I work with, I actually have a, an event planner that I give them, it's like this one pager and it's like our parents involved, well, how much time is going to be needed? Who's going to drive? Who am I inviting? Here's the website, what do you do if there's rain? You know, is there a plan B, like all of these details, in an event planner, and again, I have to say to them, you use the event planner, with your parents, you don't tell your friends that used an event, right to figure out how to go to amusement park, yeah. But those things are really, really very helpful to them. Because those are the details that they have a lot of trouble with. They don't know how to do all of that and figure out a day at a time and especially when parents are involved, and you're going to have a big group that goes, all of those things are really difficult for them. But yes, I think they, they learn and as you know, as kids get older, and they do start to learn, and they practice those executive functioning skills. It gets better as they get older. Right? Yes. And I see that with my own son, he's 22. Now he's almost 23. And he has ADHD, and for sure, his executive functioning has gotten much, much better as a young man than it was certainly when he was a teenager in middle school. Right? Socially and academically,

Hannah Choi 26:30

Yeah, all of those, all of those more advanced executive function skills are really just starting to emerge, at the same time that kids are starting to crave that independence and wanting to be friends have friends and interact outside of their parents. So that's this kind of an interesting crossover time where they're craving that independence, but they're also not really consistent yet, with all of those executive functions,

26:57

Righ, and teenagers get can get very upset if parents try to help them with their executive functions. There's a thing about it that's very triggering,

Hannah Choi 27:07

Right? I was actually just going to say that what I love about that event planner is that it, it gets the parent out of it. So that, that we see this a lot like it actually, when I was in my conversation with Fran, we were talking about how, when you can get yourself out of an executive function or a social skills challenge, like friction, then it can help your relationship with your child, it also gives your kid such a great opportunity to really develop those things independently, and practice those skills independently. But the event planner worksheet has all the things that they really need to be considering to have a safe and fun experience. That and those are all the things that a parent would say, like don't forget this. Don't forget that. Don't forget that. But then the parent doesn't have to because the event planner, maybe the parent just has to remind this their kid to use the event planner, but they don't have to say like well, you know, what are all the details?

Nadine Briggs 28:11

Exactly? Yeah. And they're gonna forget them anyway, even if they did,

Hannah Choi 28:14

Right. It's gonna be written down. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, like I would love to work on that. You know, like use like I'm just thinking about like coaching like how how what an awesome activity to do in an executive function coaching session is to work on an event planning activity because

Nadine Briggs 28:35

Yeah, the kids that work on that all their friends benefit greatly from that time because I'm putting together all these events I'm doing the apple picking and the go visit the castle. And you know, and there's one young woman that I work with, and like her friends had it made, they were doing all kinds of stuff. They were going to Boston and they were shopping and be-bopping around Faneuil Hall and it was because I'm like I'm on the other end, you know with that event planner, saying "mom dad can they do this you?" know and then the other friends are just getting invited. They're like this is great. They don't have to do anything!

Hannah Choi 29:10

I love that and then and then the child who's who's arranging it gets such satisfaction now just seeing all her friends having fun and and having like I made this happen I did this. someone who like I bet there's ton of a ton of opportunities for them to see evidence like to look back on - like a year ago, I I could not have done this and now when I'm going to Fanueil hall with my girlfriends.

Nadine Briggs 29:37

Well the thing about that too is those experiences are so important because those are the bonding things right like when you're I was talking to a family last night they live out in like the Chicago area and I'm working with their their teen. And it's like you know when you let's say you have an ice cream social at your house, right and you have you know, the chocolate and vanilla and all these different things. When the kids start throwing marshmallows at each other. They're, and they're belly laughing over like, what somebody's got hit me I and all those little things that happen when you when you create those moments, and that's that bonding stuff obviously "if you belly laugh with somebody, you're pretty much gonna be friends for life". Yes. Those experiences where you had a little food fight and it was harmless and maybe one you know, fell under something and we had an ant problem six months later and mom got all upset that was totally worth it. Teenagers love that stuff. So then they then they remember that or they see a marshmallow and go, "remember this?", you know, and then all of a sudden, they're all laughing again. So it's, that's the stuff that really bonds them in that meaningful way. Those types of things. And that's why it's so important to create those moments in or have them create the moments eventually, when they're old enough to do it, and have the executive function skills to do it. So that stuff happens for them. Because that's, that's the bonding stuff. That's what creates lifelong friendships. Right?

Hannah Choi 30:56

I love that. It reminds me of something that my sister was telling me that she heard about was like, there's like three types of fun, like, type one fun, which is, I don't know, I'm gonna get them wrong. But one of one of the funds is where you end up in like a flow state where you you'd like lose track of time, you don't notice the passage of time and your belly laughing and you're just like, totally in it and having so much fun. And I think that's probably where like, not inside jokes come from, but, you know, like, just share these like shared common experiences that that kids like, like you said, like they find a marshmallow and everyone burst out laughing. Just seeing a marshmallow. And from an outsider perspective, you're like, what's so funny about a marshmallow?

Nadine Briggs 31:36

Right, exactly. Yeah, that's the bonding stuff. Those are those are the those are the really precious moments.

Hannah Choi 31:42

Yeah. And so if you, if you if it's, if it's challenging for you to get into social to create those social opportunities for you, then you're not good, then you're going to miss out on that. So I love that what good work you're doing. It's so wonderful.

Nadine Briggs 31:59

It's so much fun. Yeah, it's

Hannah Choi 32:01

fun with the kids. So I have, like, I'm gonna disc kind of repeating myself, but I'm just thinking about as a coach for executive function skills, a lot of the work that our coaches do is on academics, because you know, that's what kids spend a lot of their time doing. But then when we move into the summer months, it's a great opportunity to work on other things. So like that event planner is a good idea. Do you have any other ideas that that kids could work on during the summer?

Nadine Briggs 32:30

I like things, like socializing, I like things that are out in the community, because you can go to the thing, and you can leave when you're ready to leave. When you're, when you're at someone's house, there's pressure to, you need to make sure you have enough that entertains that person and there's going to be a drop off and a pickup time, that's going to be set. And what if you're done and there's 45 minutes left of your time, that can feel awkward and uncomfortable. And so you don't want to have negative social experiences, you want to have positive social experiences. So like at my center, there's actually a ice cream stand that's one mile down the road. And I say to kids all the time, my team groups is like into their parents, like bring an extra five bucks, and go get an ice cream. At this place. It's a mile down the road. And I know there's kids who go every time every single week after group, they go with their parents. But that way you go you have an ice cream, you're there for half an hour, you socialize for a bit, or maybe you're there longer if you're having good conversation, it's up to you at that point, and you leave when you're ready to leave. That's great. So those it anytime that you're doing something that you're you have that as a conversation topic. So you're going to an amusement park, and you can talk about your favorite rides and things you like things you don't like, what are you going to get for lunch? What prizes Do you want to try to win? There's all these these points of conversation that you can have when you do that. Or if even if you go bowling or a mini golf or anything like that bumper boats, those types of things that are available in the summer, then then you can talk about the golfing, right. Oh, look at that shot. Oh, I can't believe I got in the water that time and you have those things to help them to connect and bond over. It's a lot harder. When you're just someone's at your house. And you're you'll have to have conversation with them the whole time. And you've got to find things that entertain them the whole time is a lot more pressure. Yeah, that's so interesting. If you for adults, you think about you go out with another couple and you sit there at dinner. Yeah, you have to talk topics for that whole time at dinner, right? So if you go out to dinner with somebody new, you might be a little anxious because you're like, oh gosh, what if we run out of stuff to say before the check comes?

Hannah Choi 34:39

Maybe just drinks?

Nadine Briggs 34:41

Exactly. For apps

Hannah Choi 34:45

So in our basement, we when we refinished our basement and when the kids were little we were trying to decide what to do with the space. And and I said we're saying let's just leave it open and so we have like, like a Big beanbag, and we have swings that hang from the joists. And just like a lot of like gross motor fun things. And so when my, my friends have kids over, and I can tell they're like, it's kind of like, they're not really sure what to do, obviously go downstairs and play, you know, if they haven't already gone down. And it's fun to like, have just something to be silly with. So I imagine, you know, like going to the park or I don't know, like going for a walk or something where you're being physical is can kind of give you something to do with your body while you're trying to talk.

35:38

Yeah, this air hockey table that is at our center is enormous. Because when we think about this awkward teenage boy, let's say he's 14 and he walks in. He's anxious, he's socially awkward. He doesn't know anybody. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know any of the staff. He doesn't know any of the kids and he walks into a room with like, 10 other kids. Wow. That's a that's an ask. Yeah, that's a big ask. So when they walk in, I mean, obviously, we're there to greet them and everything. But one of the things I love them to do is to start playing air hockey. That's because then you're actively engaged in a social, you know, item, basically your game. Yeah, but you don't really have to talk.

Hannah Choi 36:12

Yeah. And it's one on one.

Nadine Briggs 36:15

One on one or two on two. Yeah. And you can talk about the shot, you can talk about a good shot, you know, we're almost got that one in. And then you already have that conversation starter right there. But you're engaged without just standing there awkwardly waiting for somebody to come talk to you. Yeah, you know, it's such a nice way to break in. Now. I do have to watch that table to make sure they don't stay at the table we can. There are some kids who will do that. And I have to say I need you to branch out from the table and go do something. I've tried something else. But yeah, we watch it. But it's a great way for them to start because they're again, they're busy, They're engaged. They're socializing, but they don't have to say too much yet.

Hannah Choi 36:53

That's great. So that makes that leads into a really good question that I have for you is, where do you start? Like if, like, where's a great place to start for someone who is struggling socially?

Nadine Briggs 37:05

Well, like I said, I would start with that plan, that social plan. And I would figure out what are what are their biggest hang ups for socialization is? Is it anxiety? Is it conversation skills? Is it that they don't have access to people that they would be friends with? Do you need to go join scouts or a youth group? Or you know, get yourself out there in some other way? So kind of narrow down? What is it we need? Do we need to work on anxiety? Do we conversation skills, do we need to find your people and they are way down that way and start start that way and the lowest lowest hanging fruit, you know, who is who are your people, and let's go find them and then start to ingratiate ourselves to those people, it kind of depends on the kid. There are some kids who who don't even realize even as teenagers, that they need to put themselves physically near someone else. Even in my center, I'll have a bunch of kids playing air hockey, and they're all watching the air hockey and one kid on the other side of the room. He doesn't necessarily understand that the signal you're giving is that you don't want to really be friends with people, when really it's your anxiety, just stand with everybody else. Put your body there and and be in that group, you know, those types of things. So that's where I would start is just to kind of break down? Where do we think the biggest issue is, and then if they need social coaching, and they need an intervention of some sort to seek that out, I think this summer, you know, we're, we're crazy busy this summer, I think because it is such a good time to get people kind of caught up, you know, from the pandemic, you know, a lot of people felt like they lost a couple years. And so this is an opportunity for them to just focus on the skills, and you know, things that they might not have been able to work on for the last couple and get ready for the next school year. You know, so if they're not able to do it, if the parent is kind of lost, and they don't know how to narrow down that list of friends and figure out where the problem spots are, and either study it up on their own, or get some outside help to do better with those areas that are making it difficult for them, you know, get help to do that so that their kids are moving forward, particularly teenagers, teenagers developmentally start to separate from their parents from at about age 11 ish, so that they can eventually leave the nest when they're right after high school. And when they start to separate from parents, they need to be able to latch on to peers. And if they don't have that peer group, they're just kind of floating out there without being tethered to anything. And that that's what that concerns me because they do need tethering to other teens. And they need to find that place where they're okay. They're accepted there. They belong. So it's really important for parents to find that. Otherwise, they're very unsettled. And you might even find that they don't want to pursue anything outside of high school, they want to stay home and we don't we don't want to have that basement of yours be used for a 35 year old. No, no, no. So right. You want you want that separation, you know, and so you have to help that happen because developmentally they they really crave and need that to be able to become a functional adult. Yeah, so it's critically important that they find that. And, you know, it's, it can be really difficult if somebody has super unique interests and all these other things. So you really have to help them find their way, one way or the other, if they can't do it, get outside help to help them do it.

Hannah Choi 40:18

Yeah. And I imagine as parents, I mean, it's, it's hard enough to, to let your kid you know, start to move away from you and out into the world when you when you're confident about your child's social skills. So I imagine that, that for parents whose kids do struggle with social skills, it is even harder to to, to support that or allow that to happen. And to do it's almost like you're like pushing them out of the nest.

Nadine Briggs 40:50

But well, I always say prepare them for whatever their next big phases. So if they're, if they're in elementary school, you're preparing them for middle school, you're in middle school, you're preparing for high school, when you're in high school, you're preparing for whatever's after high school. And if after high school is college for you, you have to be ready to live in a dorm. And so when you think unless you're going to commute or whatever, if you're gonna live in that dorm, you're gonna be just a few feet away from some other person you don't know. And you might even be in a forced triple and a little tiny room. That's a lot of socialization and connectedness to other people that you may or may not do well at. And so that can really affect kind of how you are over your overall well being if you're not able to do well in those settings. So I always look at if you're in middle school, and you're super socially awkward, let's get on it now, and get you ready for you know, if you if you think you're a college bound person, or even if you're not, you're even in the military, they have lived in close quarters. If you're working with people, you decide to go to trade school and you go to work, you know, a job, you need to still be able to get along with people, right? You know, and even in your first jobs, you know, when you're old enough to work, a lot of times your boss is maybe a power hungry teenager. That's right, you're not necessarily going to have some 40 year old seasoned manager knows how to handle you're right, you're gonna get somebody who's maybe not that great at managing people and in their own communication skills around your employment. Yeah, you know, those are all challenges they need to be ready for. So it is really important to get on all of these soft skills as best we can early as possible so they can be more competent.

Hannah Choi 42:29

Yeah, those transitions are huge. And I and I think it's, it can be difficult to be that forward thinking when you're in the middle of, you know, the, the difficulty of high school or the you know, the, the the challenges of middle school, it can be hard, it can be hard to be so forward thinking and but it sure does help if you're able to, I know that's something that we coaches work a lot a lot on is like the transition transitions, yeah, transition from from school to work, or from school to college and working on all the associated executive function skills that come with that and turns out there's a whole bunch of social skills, too.

Nadine Briggs 43:09

Finding your voice, finding your confidence, you know, if someone says something to you being able to kind of report back or say something back to them that feels comfortable to you. And those types of things are important, like I that one of the young women I work with, she's super shy, and people will say things like, Oh, I can't believe she talked, you know, and I tell her I say yeah, I did. Yeah, just like of course I did. I did that like, Yeah, you bet I did! you know, to get her from oh my gosh, I can't believe they said that, too. Yeah, I did is a journey, you know, and but by the time they're done with high school, we want them to be in the Yeah, I did. And yeah, I am, you know, here I am worlds, you know, are you ready for me and have that kind of confidence in themselves. And then that takes time to build that up if they don't have that now and then so it's a it's a process to get there.

Hannah Choi 44:01

And it takes a lot of being brave and putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and trying new things, which is super scary. And I'm sure that the kids that come to you are so grateful for for what you do and the parents of the kids too, because it is so scary to try new things and to have a coach or you know, some kind of support person along with for the ride is invaluable

Nadine Briggs 44:25

yeah, we need to have resiliency is huge. The Resiliency is huge. You need to be able to work through these things and if they don't go your way. Yeah, you need to be able to find the silver linings on things.

Hannah Choi 44:37

Gold directed persistance gotta stick with it.

Nadine Briggs 44:40

You do, you do and it's all you got to train your brain to think that way. And so there's a lot of things we do to teach them how to do those exercises to get your brain in the right frame of mind around all of this. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 44:54

It's it's just, I just wish that I could give For every child, all of the things that they need, you know, I wish that every child could every parent could know about, you know, these kinds of support and get access to them. And it's wonderful to be able to do that.

Nadine Briggs 45:12

I agree, if you try to get the word out there as best you can, and you know, shout from the rooftops and hope that they hear you, you know, because it is so important, and it's life-changing stuff. And, you know, there should be a focus on academics. I know there is a big focus on academics, but this other stuff is just so so important, too. Yeah. And it's not enough to be smart. You need to have these other skills as well.

Hannah Choi 45:33

I do think that there is more, more conversation about it these days. And like we were talking, before we got on about the pandemic has created more opportunities to talk about challenges that people have, and more people are more open to being flexible. So I guess that's one good benefit about side benefit of the pandemic, is allowing these conversations to happen more.

Nadine Briggs 45:35

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I tend to be more of an optimistic person, I look at the silver lining of things. And honestly, with the pandemic, we went online. Yeah. And had we not, I mean, we serve kids from, you know, 11 different states and get kids from Canada. Yeah. They make friends. Yeah, we have a kid in Florida, I was friends with the kid and Long Island. And, and you know, and that never would have happened before. And so you have to look at those things, as difficult as creating a whole new program online was, you know, when it worked in the end, I mean, there were some bumps, so we had to figure things out. But you got to look at the silver lining of things, no matter what you're faced with and focus your brain on the things that are going well, versus the things that don't go well.

Hannah Choi 46:45

And what a great attitude to go into learning social skills with, you know, you can look for the little tiny thing, little tiny win that you have that you know that you weren't able to do yesterday, I said hi to somebody, and yesterday, I couldn't even look at them.

Nadine Briggs 46:58

So yeah, exactly, exactly.

Hannah Choi 47:02

That's great. So what are you excited about or looking forward to in the field of social skills development for kids?

Nadine Briggs 47:10

I am really excited that in the social skills development, that there is a really big movement on teaching the resiliency piece of things. I think that's a really big missing element to it. But what it what it is, it's more with this kind of building the muscles in your mind that are focused on things that are going well, versus the things that are not going well. So it's kind of like if you're thinking if you're focusing on the woe is me all the time, though, that's the the firings in your brain that are going to they're going to solidify for you. If you're thinking about the things that go well, those are going to be the things that you bring that get the most strength, it's kind of like going to the gym and lifting weights, right? You, you want to lift your optimism weights and not your negative weight, like that has some has some weight. Yeah. And so we do that with kids all the time. And like if I hear from from a parent, so for example, I have this one kid whose parent will email me and say, Oh, my gosh, the change in my kid, I hear him when we carpool with other people making conversation now in the backseat with the kid, rather than just being quiet the whole ride. The next time I see that kid, I'll go, I heard you're a rock star on those carpooling trips, and that you're now making conversation with people where you didn't used to make conversation before. And I'm really impressed by that. So by saying that to him, he's all like, oh, wow, like, I, she's reinforcing what I'm doing. I'm really taking what she taught me and doing it, she sees me. And that encourages him to do it even more not to mention the fact that he's made a connection with that person. So it's all that kind of stuff. Like I'll say things to kids, like, I'm really impressed by you, or I like the way you think. People never get told they like the way they think. So there's little, there's little phrases and things like that, that that are, they're just embedded into the into how we interact with people. We do things with kids, we have these things called "I CAN" cans. And basically like I'll take like a Crystal Light container that has those those packets in it, you know, that plastic container when it's all gone. And we'll put like, colorful paper around it and just say "I Can" on it. And, and so those are a nice little tool for parents to use in their homes. It's probably from a little bit more for your younger kids than teenagers. But just you know, the things that you can do, like, you know, I can do this, like I know, I can get my homework done on time, or I can be a good friend of somebody who's sad. And when they see evidence of the things they're doing well, right, you put the little note, you can do this and you put it in the can. And it's like it's kind of like never giving an empty compliment to somebody. Yeah, you saying like, Oh, you're such a nice person. Now you're such a nice person. Because when I saw this kid struggling with how to play that game, you'd pull them aside and you explained it to him with a lot of patience. That that's a that's a loaded compliment where I'm telling this person exactly why I'm saying they're a good friend. I'm not just saying it because I want to say something Nice, I'm saying it because I mean it. And here's the evidence that I saw, that shows me what a good friend you are to that person. And so that that's the power of that sort of thing is like, you're not just, you're not just blown fluff at somebody, you do have an evidence based reason for saying what you're saying to them. And I think that's really powerful for them, because they can really latch on to that, and it doesn't feel like left to them, it feels really meaningful. And then you're gonna get more of the same from that person, because it was acknowledged in a really positive way.

Hannah Choi 50:31

Right? That's so great. Well, I hope that continues to be used in in schools and different environments where kids are over the coming year.

Nadine Briggs 50:44

And I think that's the challenge schools are overwhelmed. So you say, oh, let's bring in you know, positive education and resiliency training and well being it that that's the challenge right now, I think, to the, to the people who are really interested in spreading the word about this stuff. That's, that's the challenge is that it almost needs to come from the children. And I think that's, that's programs like mine, where we're teaching it, and then they're showing other people the power of it, like a little army of Optimists out.

Hannah Choi 51:15

Well, that's something that I've talked about on the podcast before and just something that, you know, as a coach, I try, like, my, my ultimate goal is that my clients will go out and into the world and, you know, share what they've learned in their coaching sessions and, and help others with their own executive function, skill development. So it's the Yeah, same idea. And I'm sure that, you know, just like we as parents model things for our kids, our kids can model the model for their friends.

Nadine Briggs 51:43

So it's sometimes for their parents.

Hannah Choi 51:45

And yes, that's right. Yeah, right.

Nadine Briggs 51:49

I have a six year old who is who sometimes will, social coach his mom.

Hannah Choi 51:54

Great. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has just been fascinating.

Nadine Briggs 52:01

I thank you for having me.

Hannah Choi 52:02

Yeah. Where can our listeners find out about you and your program is available? Worldwide? Sounds like so. Yeah, just share with share where people can find you.

Nadine Briggs 52:13

Yeah, simplysocialkids.com is the website. And usually we do as an intake for for new families so we can determine if the program is a good fit for their child or their teen or their young adult. And then we do free trials. So with they'll set them up for a free trial, they can take it for a spin. So they think of it and then if they're interested, they can enroll.

Hannah Choi 52:30

That's great. Oh, good. Well, best of luck to you. And, and I'm sure there's, like you said an army of kids out there that are spreading the spreading the good social skills that they've learned from you.

Nadine Briggs 52:42

Let's, let's hope so, that's the goal!

Hannah Choi 52:46

All right. Well, thanks again, for talking with me. I really appreciate it.

Nadine Briggs 52:51

Thanks for having me.

Hannah Choi 52:54

And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Nadine. And hopefully you learned something that will empower you or your kids to enrich your social lives. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics that we cover in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts with all those new friends you're gonna make. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and you can easily find the resources that we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.

I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.

Related Resources

Executive Skill Questionnaire-Revised

ESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!

Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-R

Smart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard Guare

Smart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered website

Helping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills.

Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does.

But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire.

Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode.

Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans.

Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty.

Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show.

Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?

Peg Dawson 05:41

Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.

Hannah Choi 08:18

I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.

Peg Dawson 08:28

Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.

Hannah Choi 08:53

Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,

Peg Dawson 10:31

yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not so

Hannah Choi 11:16

yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.

Peg Dawson 12:00

Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...

Hannah Choi 12:43

Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,

Peg Dawson 13:02

yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.

Hannah Choi 14:05

Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.

Peg Dawson 14:24

Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,

Hannah Choi 15:59

yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.

Peg Dawson 16:16

So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.

Hannah Choi 19:29

I saw that too.

Peg Dawson 19:30

So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.

Hannah Choi 20:08

Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?

Peg Dawson 21:18

So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.

Hannah Choi 22:44

Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.

Peg Dawson 22:49

And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.

Hannah Choi 26:22

Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,

Peg Dawson 27:03

Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.

Hannah Choi 28:00

Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.

Peg Dawson 28:33

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.

Hannah Choi 29:30

And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. So

Peg Dawson 29:50

I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's such

Hannah Choi 30:33

If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.

Peg Dawson 30:36

It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.

Hannah Choi 30:59

Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.

Peg Dawson 32:09

Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. So

Hannah Choi 33:08

yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,

Peg Dawson 33:34

right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 33:46

So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.

Peg Dawson 38:27

I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.

Hannah Choi 39:29

Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.

Peg Dawson 39:34

Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.

Hannah Choi 39:37

Do you have any questions for me?

Peg Dawson 39:39

So how long have you been coaching?

Hannah Choi 39:41

I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.

Peg Dawson 40:05

Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?

Hannah Choi 40:19

That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?

Peg Dawson 42:02

Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.

Hannah Choi 42:15

They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.

Peg Dawson 42:56

I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But and

Hannah Choi 43:19

so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?

Peg Dawson 44:55

But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.

Hannah Choi 45:40

And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.

Peg Dawson 46:44

And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,

Hannah Choi 47:55

if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?

Peg Dawson 48:41

No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.

Hannah Choi 49:19

But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?

Peg Dawson 49:34

So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.

Hannah Choi 49:57

I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it!

Peg Dawson 50:00

Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?

Hannah Choi 50:02

They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting.

Peg Dawson 50:13

And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.

Hannah Choi 50:25

Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Peg Dawson 50:40

Thank you. This was fun.

Hannah Choi 50:44

And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!

When we look to a professional for support, we may be looking to improve our mental health or confidence, but at a fundamental level, we're really hoping to change our lives. So what does that mean when it comes to Executive Function support? In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you’ve listened to those episodes already, you’ll have heard them share that while it hasn’t been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey, so I reached out to Fran Havard, who is a mom of four kids, two of whom have executive function challenges. Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she’s one of Beyond BookSmart’s EF coaches and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator or, as you’ll hear her call it “CC”, by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she’s learned and how she manages all of this.

Here are the show notes for this episode:

Helping our Kids Learn EF Skills

Activities Guide: Enhancing and Practicing Executive Function Skills with Children from Infancy to Adolescence

Helping Kids Who Struggle With Executive Functions

Smart But Scattered Kids book by Peg Dawson, Ph.D.

A Day in the Life of an Elementary Schooler with Executive Function Challenges

Finch App for Android or Apple devices

Helping Ourselves Practice EF Skills

Executive Skill Challenges: Adults Have Them, Too!

Executive Functioning in Adults: The Science Behind Adult Capabilities

Support for Adults: New Ebook from an Executive Function Expert by Michael Delman, Beyond BookSmart CEO

How to ADHD YouTube Channel

How to Work or Study in a Noisy Environment

Staying Focused in a Noisy Open Office

6 Ways to Minimize Distractions in a Noisy Work Environment

Why Are Power Tools So Loud?

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now, and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you've listened to these episodes already, you'll have heard them share that well. It hasn't been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey.

So I reached out to Fran Havard who is a mom of four kids, two of whom who have executive function challenges. And Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she is one of Beyond BookSmart's coaches, and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator, or as you'll hear her call it "CC" by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she's learned and how she manages all of this. I don't want to give too much away. But as you listen today, you'll hear that recording this episode challenged my attention and cognitive flexibility executive function skills like no other. This episode is authenticity in practice, we are truly keeping it real. Now on to the show.

Hi, Fran, thank you so much for being here today. Do you want to start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you and your background?

Fran Havard 01:48

Sure. My name is Fran and I'm a parent first. I've joked with a lot of people around me that I wear many hats. So when they're interacting with me, they got to make sure I'm wearing the right hat. So if I go to meetings, and I'm in my journalist hat, I have to announce that ahead of time, if I'm in my doctoral classes, I announce that ahead of time. I am a parent first though, for children ages 5, 8, 9, 8? I think he's about to turn nine. So nine and 10 and 12. I have worked with adolescents most of my life. I coach, older us adolescents, usually at 19 starting college. And that is my favorite age group to work with.

Hannah Choi 02:34

Can you explain a little bit more about the roles that you've played at Beyond BookSmart? Just so we can kind of get a little more understanding about your perspective when it comes to executive function challenges.

Fran Havard 02:46

So I play two roles at beyond booksmart. One is I work with families as a coaching coordinator. So I sort of as a support with the coaching process, but not in the role of coach. I answer I, you know, explain or narrate the growth process to families and I you know, celebrate the successes when we've met another part of the change process. And we're in a different phase of development, I, you know, communicate what's happening in coaching, I answer questions about, you know, if there's resistance to coaching, what that means and how we overcome those hurdles. And I'm also a coach, so I work, I'm also living the challenges that our coaches are living with and living the successes that we're seeing through this process.

Hannah Choi 03:35

And, and you're also a parent, do you like I know myself being a parent, I, I bring a lot of what I what I've learned about executive function into my parenting, how does how does, being a coach and a coaching coordinator affect you as a parent?

Fran Havard 03:56

So actually, how I started coaching is an interesting story. I knew, you know, I was a stay at home parent, I had left teaching. And I was sort of working in virtual ed. And I had a child who was she was, I didn't know what it was, I'd been in teaching for a decade. She was messy. Everything was messy, like the hair, the books, the backpack, everything was all over the place. And I just started like, I mean, like the emotions, everything was just and I had an older daughter who was neat and tidy, right? And then the second daughter came along, and I couldn't believe how different they were and I thought that's strange. So I started like googling like anything else just seeking out why is like, literally Why is my kid so messy? And somehow I stumbled across this language called executive function. It was like new at the time. I don't know it was like it felt like new language that I hadn't even heard as a teacher as a veteran teacher. And so I started to look more about it, and then all of a sudden, I hit the on Beyond BookSmart. And I said, Well, you know, at that point I'm not working, but I applied for the job because I thought if I could learn what they're doing, and I could try it, maybe I could help this really messy kid I have. And that's how I started Beyond BookSmart. And it turned out that I ended up out of four kids, two are very messy. And what I realized the most through asking you like, your question is, what do I learn, I learned the language to communicate with them, you know, that I wouldn't, didn't, that I wouldn't have had without, you know, being an executive function coach, like, how to help them reflect on their experiences to help them grow, you know, and learn how to listen more to them, rather than trying to force them into a mold that they, they're, you know, like squeezing them, but you know, you can't put them I've learned how to accept that they're not going to be neat and tidy. And that, either I get them to, you know, through that messiness articulate their authentic selves, or, you know, I'm forever nagging and yelling at them. And I think executive function coaching, which you think, Oh, you must be so perfect and organized to do this job. But, you know, that's how I learned I had ADHD, that's how I learned my children had ADHD, you know, I learned what it was, through my interaction with it, it's a learning, you know, it's a, it's a different style of learning, and being and observing and knowing. And we just have to find how you can be that person in another environment that wants you to be a certain way. And then through reflection, through questioning, and I would say, you know, as a coach, and as a parent, that's what I've learned how to coach my kids.

Hannah Choi 07:02

Is I one thing that we hear a lot from parents, and I'm sure you have to is parents feeling like, like, I didn't know, like, I didn't know what was going on, or like, I knew something was off, but I didn't know what it was. And then, you know, like, I wish I had done something differently, or I wish I had found, you know, about executive function, just executive functions earlier. Did you go through any of that?

Fran Havard 07:30

Oh, absolutely. It was like, there's this expression, if you can name it, you can tame it. Yeah. And I found when I could name those EF executive function areas, like, you know, metacognition, or planning, prioritizing time management, task initiation, if I could name it, see the strategies that I could bring in. But before I could break it down and see those parts, I just saw a big mess. Once I can name the parts, I was able to analyze how those pieces were coming together to create what I was seeing in front of me. And that's knowledge feature, every parent, every kid needs to know. Because if you can say, task initiation is my struggle right? Now, I know I don't want to do this, but I'm going to give myself a five minute goal to get over this hurdle, you will find that they are the awareness to know what their drag is use that tool to get through it. And then it's not failure. That's why I love executive function coaching because these messy kids meet failure again, and again, because they don't know how to name the pieces. So it just seems like a giant mess. And if anything that I've learned from working this job, it's like it's and I always say this with clients. It's a constant unraveling, like this braid on the back of your head, and you're pulling apart the strands, and you're rebraiding it. So that it's, you know, how they want it braided but it has shape, it has definition and the parts are recognizable.

Hannah Choi 09:15

I love that. So when you're working with families, and you're working with the you know, so say the child is in coaching, and the child has you know, been identified as someone who is not like fitting in to the mold I mean, really they are they just haven't found the strategies that work for them to fit into society as it is. Now I'm sure there's like a world somewhere where messy people would just be like embraced and welcomed

Fran Havard 09:44

In their their messy world right? Yeah. children's book writer that has that messy character it's like this blob of color and you know, the sunshine guy he's got Mr. Messy is my favorite character of all because it's like You're just like, what is it? It's like, I wish I had a piece of paper, but it's like this big scribble guy walking around with.

10:08

I think I remember that

10:08

He reminds me of my daughter, you know, use that metaphor we use that. I use that with her so that she laughs about it, because, and you gotta you gotta have laughter right?

Hannah Choi 10:20

Yes. Speaking, I don't know if you can hear it, but there's some kind of loud noise going on

Fran Havard 10:25

Is someone serenading me? What's happening out there?

Hannah Choi 10:28

I don't know. There's like a loud drill or a saw, like people don't realize I'm recording right now? (laughter)

Fran Havard 10:34

I thought that was a song I was like, kids playing instrument out the window. (laughter)

Hannah Choi 10:39

No, it's the neighbors. Okay. A big part of parenting, at least I know, for me, and many of my friends is this guilt that we that we feel. Regardless, like, regardless of what the topic is, what area of life it is we're bound to like find some, you know, something that we fault ourselves for. Do you? Does that come up in your conversations with parents?

Fran Havard 11:02

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important that, you know, me having had the experience of not knowing what was happening and having an experience where I was yelling at my kid, you know, to get them to put their shoes on, or find their backpack or wonder why one morning, she grabs a backpack, puts it on her back and gets ready for school. And it's not even her backpack or you know, I've had those experiences, where you can't understand why they just don't get it. So for me to have made changes to my own behavior, such as: This is your hook. This is your backpack. For me to have made changes to how I parent and my expectations for her and how I can better support her and the youngest son made a world of difference on conflict in the house. So whenever I work with parents, I some part of the conversation that I'm listening to what they're saying, I'm hearing that your son is not filling out a Google Calendar. But what I'm saying to you is, what can we do to sort of support that process? How can we help? Because telling my daughter to pick up her backpack and put it on her back? Doesn't mean she's gonna know which backpack. And so just because your son has a Google Calendar, how can we increase the our interest in it, get engagement, you know, engage with that tool, as a family. And I feel like a lot of my experiences as CC is translating.

Hannah Choi 12:44

I know for myself, like my son is very forgetful. He's he's very much like me. And so. So every morning, it would it was this constant thing of me saying like, did you get this? Did you get that? Did you get this? Did you get that? And I'm like, What are you doing? Hannah, you need to you need to approach this like a coach. So we made a list. And we have a list on the door that goes out to the, we leave from our garage, so there's a door that goes out there. And so there's a list on there. And he's gotten so good every morning, he stands there in front of it. And he's 10. And he stands there in front of it and reads everything off and then scampers off to get the one thing that he forgot. And it and it's totally taken the stress out of the mornings. For us. It's, it's absolutely, it's taken the pressure off of me, it's removed that from my role, which is great for him and for our relationship.

Fran Havard 13:33

Exactly, because it gives them I know exactly what you're saying. Because there's this tool that I used with one of my children, I just started using an app where it's one of my clients actually showed me this, they said they use this little character, and you set goals for yourself. And you design your character and you set goals like brush your teeth in the morning, make sure your math homework is packed, wear underwear. Your parents of kids with executive function issues, like the first thing you're like is you put the underwear on, you know, because that step they miss. So like we have tags like that on this app. And then they he comes in the morning, and he'll slide that he did these things. And then the character will get moving. And the character goes on an adventure. And you don't know that's adventure. It's just it's little penguin walking. And and when you do more, it shortens the journey. So they, he will come home from school and he'll pick up his iPad to look at his penguin and what the penguin found on the journey because it's usually a four hour journey or five, he'll make find coconut milk, he's like, "Ma, I found coconut milk". And I'll be like "that's amazing!", but it all stems from him having done those acts and that's tied to the metaphor of task initiation. Right, right.

Hannah Choi 14:51

Yeah. I love that. That's great. We will include more about that app in the show notes if anybody wants to get in We have that. So if any, any of our listeners hear this noise in the background, the house next to me is apparently undergoing some kind of alteration, there's some wild saw or drill or something going on. My apologies

Fran Havard 15:13

I'm a bit nervous about the timber part, when whatever they're sawing falls down.

Hannah Choi 15:20

Okay, they obviously do not see the big red Record sign that I have, that I should have. Something that I write about a lot. And I, I struggle with myself a lot is this expectation that just because we are executive function coaches, we kind of put this pressure on ourselves, like, oh, maybe we are also supposed to be excellent in all of our executive functions. And I think executive function coaches are such great examples of how no one on this earth has perfect executive functions. And so where, what if What areas do you have to work on and what challenges do you find?

Fran Havard 15:56

You know it's funny because when I think about executive functioning coach, we're just having strong executive function, it doesn't always have to look neat and tidy. Like, I have a friend who is, I mean, counters are sparkling, everything is white, got three kids, right? Everything's still white, even with the three kids running around the house, everything has a container, I'll never be that person. So what executive function skills look like, for me, are not what they look like for other people. And for me, it's become like, it's about knowing how to prioritize what's important. That's strong executive, you know, how many projects we deal with every day, when we sit down? If you have four kids, three of those kids are classified special ed. I mean, that alone is a bucket, that alone is a task list. Yeah, that's how I think in those terms, you know, I think I have to do X, Y, and Z, my house doesn't look perfect. My purse, I, I haven't carried one in a very long time. Because I, I lose it, you know, like, but what I've gotten really good at is thinking in categories, and then sub categorizing. And I can, you know, I've gotten good at a planner or, you know, things like, things like that, when it comes to executive function, but and that's what I say, like, we have this image of what's perfect, what has very strong executive function skills. And if there is like, anything that I've learned as a coach, and as a parent, there's no perfect, there's no perfect if you can figure out like, you know, this is all about the change process, if you can figure out what you want to change, and own that and want that and that's the hardest part. And that is the hardest part of executive functioning as a, you know, strength. It's most people that are good at it, either a going through the motions, or B, they know what they want. And that that's nuts. That's the difference. So you know, if my friend has a perfect pristine house, she prioritizes that executive function area, all right, I don't. I mean, I literally went to bed last night with dishes in the sink. My friend would have a mini heart attack if that happened. Like she she says and understand she I called her once and I was like, What color should I paint for these cabinets? And she's like, I can't watch that video. I was like, Why can't you watch the video? She goes, You left all your cabinet doors open, who leaves the cabinet doors open? You know, like for her executive function coaching is everything neat and tidy.

Hannah Choi 18:38

My god, I seriously think there's someone. Also, there's like someone here.

Fran Havard 18:45

In your house? I didn't notice, I feel like you're doing great. But I'm like trying I'm like, I could tell there's a lot happening!

Hannah Choi 18:55

There's like someone in my house. My husband is working from home as well. Okay. Hey, you know what we said we were gonna go into this being really authentic. Well, listeners, I am treating you to authenticity today. Welcome to my life.

Fran Havard 19:15

Well, Hannah, you know executive function coaching is a lot about how you respond to things, right?

Hannah Choi 19:20

It is. It really is. Yes, I'm just gonna get through it. And I'm gonna just love it. And I'm just so happy that I'm talking to you. You can go through this with me. So something so two things that I wanted to talk about. One is you said something earlier about comparison and I feel like that comes up a lot. We have these assumptions in our head about how we are or our children are like supposed to be and how other like other kids It's other are like our friends, kids are a certain way. And oh, like my kids are supposed to be that way. And I think that I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the parents of our kiddos that are going through executive function coaching are feeling this way. And it's just so important to recognize that everyone has strengths. Everyone has challenges, your kid is not the same as as someone else's kid, you are not the same. There's going to be things about your kid that are you know, that they're better at something than someone else's kid. And I don't know, that's just something that comes up a lot. I've noticed in conversations with friends and just conversations with other coaches and parents. That comparison is it's tempting to go down that road. And it's can be a little dicey. If you do.

Fran Havard 20:56

Well, I find that I have to fight that as both a coaching coordinator and as a parent, this idea of what's right. Fix my kid, you know, this is not what coaching is about, I always find I have a definite focus on what's your authentic self. Because these kids have learning differences. And it's not so much that they have learning differences, how they engage and see the world is different. That's why the result, what you see on the other side is different. Because the kids that we work with the ADHD kids, and other learning difference, kids don't see the same world. And I have to temper the expectation right away that that's a beautiful thing. They will never see the same world that x sees it or Y sees it. They interact in a very unique way. And that is something to celebrate. And so, I had a line with parents, that is where I go, allowing parents to understand that it is okay, that your child engages in different way with the world. Congratulations, you've birthed an individual with a unique perspective on the world. Yes, Well done for cultivating that through their early childhood. Well done for keeping that special bit of them right through, you know, school, and yeah, they might not have straight A's in high school, but we'll help them find a way to be successful.

Hannah Choi 22:40

Oooh, you're giving me the chills.

Fran Havard 22:41

I mean, like, yes, it's so true.

Hannah Choi 22:48

I, one of my adult clients and I were having a similar conversation, he was recently diagnosed with ADHD, and he did a project for grad school where they interviewed educators and just people from all different aspects of education, and about how so, so many people don't fit into this, you know, the mold of, of education, as it is today of most schools. And, and then we were saying that, but it's the people who don't fit in, that are the ones that you know, can really end up making change. And it's the people that are different, that see the world in a different way. And that, you know, that that interpret the world in a different ways. They're the ones that keep things interesting and keep us on our toes. And we need more people that think that way. And then in order for them to reach their goals, yeah, they need to develop some executive functions, strategies that support the areas that, that make it maybe make it hard for them to do X, Y, and Z.

Fran Havard 23:53

Yeah, I, the other day, a little I was in my son's third grade classroom. And we were doing a word search. And like, I've always been a sort of outside the box thinker. And it, I took the word search, and I started doing it with his class. And then I turned the paper to the side, because for me, I could look at letters, you know, turn around, I can all of a sudden see a pattern that I didn't see before. And I and I, all of a sudden, everybody's sitting at my son's table, turn their paper to the side because they had never thought and I thought and I always think when I work with kids who are, you know, have learning differences. They always have their paper to the side helped me see things a little bit differently, you know?

Hannah Choi 24:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking with someone she was, I can't remember who it was, but she was saying, you know, like, if you walk into a special education classroom in an elementary school, you might see someone like lying on the floor and doing their work or someone you know, using some kind of manipulative or you know, sitting in some kind of unique chair or something. And that's what we need in every classroom. Like it should be just sort of accepted and standard. Some people work on the floor. Some people hold their paper sideways. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing that I love about coaching is helping people find what works for them. And I always say, like, I'm gonna make this suggestion, but I don't want you to think, oh, I have to do it this way. Like, I want you to say like, I want you to tell me when it doesn't work, I want you to tell me what you didn't like about it. I always start my question. Okay, you tried this? What did you not like about it? That's it's super valuable, really valuable information. I'm sure that you've had conversations with parents, when they say it feels like it's taking a long time. Because a common thing that we talked about with clients all the time, I'm sure you've talked about it with your clients. And I know it comes up a lot is like how long it takes to make change. I mean, there's 1000s of books on, you know, developing new habits, there's, you know, podcasts and executive function coaches and everything. And it just takes a long time. What do you how do you, how do you help parents understand that and how do you yourself manage it, when, when either one of your clients is taking a long time, or if you're taking a long time, or one of your kids.

Fran Havard 26:11

I'm a firm believer that you have to get underneath, you got to get up underneath the resistance to change. So you remember, we we learned a lot about friction when we that when we read the article I sent and you have to understand as a parent, as a coach, what's creating that friction, that resistance to change. And I think a lot about problem solving in those terms. Now, because change is slow because of this friction. And then when you look at like a kid who's, you know, 17 in pre contemplation, which is there, they don't even realize they have to change, they're so over it, they're so detached, and how to bring them to that line, that takes a long time, relationship building, and a lot of making that child feel like they can be successful. And then the more that you can reshape that perception they have of themselves, so that they can see I'm a person capable of doing good things, I am a person capable of having a conversation, then you get the wheel starts to spin. So you have less of that, you know, that friction, and you have more of that's what we're going for the snowball, where one good idea feeds another good idea. It takes it takes a lot of verbal unpacking, we have to change the narrative inside the head. And when we do that, then changes quicker. But and that friction causes that slowness then causes the rate of change to slow down. Like we use physics as we use Newton's law of motion in this company, in Beyond BookSmart to talk about, you know, force and change in the process. It's not always the carrot, I'll give you this and you'll do it. Right. That's artificial. We've learned as coaches that that doesn't work. What Works is how we change this.

Hannah Choi 28:19

Yep. And so much of that is confidence, right? The how you were saying like, like, if you are at the point where you've like, say, you've been labeled something, you know, you've been labeled, you know, disorganized or you just have, the messages that have been given to you growing up is that you are incapable of doing this thing in a way that people like, and so your confidence has been eroded. And so I imagine that a lot of the friction that we that we do experience is for is not necessarily being able to believe that we could change, right?

Fran Havard 29:03

That's exactly it. This is me Take it or leave it. That's pre-contemplation. This is who I am. I'm not capable of change. Right? Yeah, that mindset, that's what you're working with. That's what you're changing. You're you are, you know, Emily Dickinson said "Hope is the Thing With Feathers that perches in the soul", like you are giving them that hope that purchases in the soul and then grows so that they can feel that they are more than this label.

Hannah Choi 29:32

Yeah, yep. It's a it can be hard. It can be hard waiting for someone to, you know, or walking away. It

Fran Havard 29:40

can be hard because there's a lot of conflicting messages and you makes you think I need to fix everything. And that's why that's why the executive function pieces so great, because it's about the parts, right? Yeah. What are we going to fix this week? We're going to fix we're going to try to and see if we're ready to fix task initiation. We're gonna try by, by getting over this hurdle of going to the gym, or dealing with my physics teacher, or writing this English assignment, Hannah, you know, writing for me is, you know, where my energy mostly lies when it comes through executive function coaching and getting a kid over that hurdle of you write the first sentence, then that's huge. We can get the first sentence written when you know, if we can isolate those parts, then we're not taking on everything. And then those quick wins those small successes that you're feeling, I wrote a sentence. Great. You weren't or you had nothing before that. And

Hannah Choi 30:43

I opened the doc. Sometimes it's just opening the doc. Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I think that as an outsider, as an observer of someone who struggles like you said, you can you find yourself saying, like, why can't they just that without breaking it down like that so small into such small, tiny little goals can be challenging for the observer. Because it's, you know, we just don't understand. But for the person who is learning better strategies to support themselves, that's the key. And that's kind of why it takes so long right?

Fran Havard 31:26

To unravel the mess so they can see what they want to work on. Yeah. So they can realize it's not really a mess. It's just a beautiful bunch of parts looking different.

Hannah Choi 31:36

Yes, that's right. Yeah, it's all there.

Fran Havard 31:40

It's all there. You would necessarily want to see it or not how they feel that they should show it, you know?

Hannah Choi 31:50

Yeah. Do you have any questions for me?

Fran Havard 31:52

Why don't you tell us a little bit about how starting this podcast challenged your EF skills?

Hannah Choi 31:58

Oh, yeah. Well, that's a great question. As you know, I really love to write, if writer, if listeners don't know, I write quite a bit for Beyond BookSmart. Internally, mostly internally. And so I was super excited about doing this, because I knew that I was going to be able to write a lot. But that also meant I had to be extremely organized. We have a lot of working parts, we have the audio, the writing, the planning, there are so many executive functions that are tied up with planning a podcast. So I would say for me, mostly, it has been task initiation, getting myself to make sure that I do the things that I need to do, because there's a lot of things on the list. Writing everything down. Absolutely. So I don't forget. And organization, keeping it all organized. So yeah.

Fran Havard 32:54

But thinking what are you going to do next?

Hannah Choi 32:56

Yeah, right, right. And cognitive flexibility,

Fran Havard 32:59

right. Next steps is the most important executive function skill you could have.

Hannah Choi 33:03

It is yeah. So next steps is - we end every meeting with the next steps, you know, what are we all going to do next? I end every writing session. If I sit down to write I end, every single writing session with what's next. I think, Oh, I think if I were to give one tip to anyone in the world, would be to use Next Steps. What is your next step when you stop doing the thing? What is your next step saves a whole bunch of heartache when you can't remember what you're gonna do,

Fran Havard 33:33

What you're gonna do, like you get up a podcast, most people get up and Chuck their stuff, they go upstairs and drink a cup of coffee. If you sit there for 30 seconds, and take a quick note, you save all those ideas flooding your brain, it's like it's a time window, you got to grab it.

Hannah Choi 33:48

Yeah, it's so true. And a huge thing that I talk a lot about with my clients is frontloading and doing as much as you can upfront to save yourself a whole bunch of grief later on. And, and that is for me, too, is that like you were saying earlier to the whole reflection piece, like quick, like if you do our little reflection session after anything that you've just done, then you are frontloading a whole bunch of work for next time.

Fran Havard 34:15

Exactly. And it's like, it's like a flood after you're in one of these and you just got to gotta get it down. Got to capture. Yep. Well, thank you, Hannah.

Hannah Choi 34:25

Oh, thank you, Fran. I really hope that our listeners can hear it. And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode and maybe even had a little chuckle listening to our attempts to maintain focus while the house next door was attacked with a power tool. Here at Focus Forward, we aim to bring you authentic stories and give you opportunities to learn and also be entertained. So hopefully today's episode did just that. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. On our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned thanks for listening

*Mental Health & ADHD/Executive Dysfunction section starts at 20:21*

When we talk about Executive Function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is important for everyone and studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health. In today’s episode, I’ll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids’ mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joined me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, NY.

Sherry is a child and family therapist who is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay, dyadic developmental therapy, art and play therapy, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise and interests include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, family transition, divorce, and separation support, trauma, attachment issues, and social and relational skills. Learn all about her work with Best Self Inc. here. 

Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients as well as the producer for this podcast. Now, as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD and is especially interested the increased risk for mental health disorders and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist  Check out some of that work on BBS's Facebook page and blog. 

---

Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Sherry & Sean.

You can find more about Sherry and her work at https://www.bestselfinc.com/

Mental Health and Executive Function Challenge Connection

Executive Functions in Students With Depression, Anxiety, and Stress Symptoms

What Should You Treat First? ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?

Executive Functioning: How Does It Relate To Anxiety?

Academic Anxiety: How Perfectionism and Executive Dysfunction Collide

3 Ways ADHD Makes You Think About Yourself

Self-Regulation and Co-Regulation

Executive Function & Self-Regulation

What is Co-Regulation? | Best Self Family Post

Developing Kids' Executive Function, Self-Regulation Skills

How Can We Help Kids With Transitions? - Child Mind Institute

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When we talk about executive function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is really important for everyone. And studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges, and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health and vice versa. And in today's episode, I'll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids' mental health.

I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joins me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, New York. Sherry is a child and family therapist who works with infants through adults, and also supports the parents and families of these children. She is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay dyadic, developmental psychotherapy, mindfulness, sandtray, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, and family transition, divorce and separation support, trauma, attachment issues and social skills.

And Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients. And now as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD, and is especially interested in the increased risk for mental health disorders, and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, and it's the reason why I thought he'd be a great fit for today's topic. I also need to mention that Sean is my partner in crime for this podcast, he does all the editing and all the sound, which is good, since I can't stand that kind of stuff. So without him, this podcast would not exist. Thanks, Sean.

Okay, so keep listening to hear my conversation with Sherry and Sean, and learn some great strategies to support both our own emotional regulation and that of our kids, and to hear how ADHD impacts the mental health of students, and how we can help support kiddos with ADHD. Okay, now on to the show.

So today, I would love to talk about two topics that are really, really important to me as a coach, and also to, I think everyone, the first is emotional regulation. And that's how we manage our emotions. And emotional regulation can be challenging for everybody. And it is especially challenging for kids, because they don't have a lot of experience, yet their executive functions are not completely developed yet. And they just haven't had a lot of opportunities to practice emotional regulation. So I'd love to talk about some, you know, ideas that you have shared from your perspective. And and then I would love to cover the idea of the connection between executive function and mental health. Because we see that a lot that there's a lot of challenges by people who have executive function challenges, often go hand have some also some mental health challenges along with them. So if we could cover those two topics today, that'd be fabulous.

Sherry Fleydervish 03:48

Absolutely. You know, something that I talk about, every single family session, every child session intake is just emotion regulation. You know, a lot of times I've see, I start my intakes with parents, and they come in, and they tell me what's been going on. And oftentimes I hear, you know, these behaviors are showing up and these labels and these things that kids are experiencing, and my mind immediately goes to regulation and where they got in their, in their ability to do that, and their ability to regulate and then the parents ability to help them co regulate to, which is something I talked about. But all of that comes from a deeper lower part of our brains that take so much time and years and experiences and everything to start to build. And so that's that's oftentimes regulation is oftentimes the first place that I really start with families.

Hannah Choi 04:43

And I feel like so many of us, at least in the generation that is old enough to have kids and then then the generation before us. There wasn't a lot of education about about self-regulation, emotional regulation, and especially co-regulation. I think, maybe even a lot of our listeners don't know what co-regulation is. Would you like to explain that a little bit?

Sherry Fleydervish 05:03

Yeah, absolutely. So what I often say is that we are sharing our nervous systems, especially with our children. And when they're little and they're babies, we're really doing everything for them, we're rocking them to regulate them, even when they're in our bellies, we're rocking them, we're regulating that, then we're feeding them, we're watering them, we're doing all of those things for them. And then as children get older, we start to help them use build their own ability to regulate themselves, but you know, even, we're even co-regulating with, with our high schoolers to, you know, instead of, maybe before you would pack their lunch for them, but, you know, now you're just putting things in the right spot in the, in the fridge for them instead. And so all those little pieces are helping them regulate, you know, instead of maybe holding them, you're just sitting next to them while they do their homework now, instead of really being there, but it really is just sharing your nervous system and sharing your regulation with your child. And I'm also always, you know, talking about how different energy states require a different type of regulation. So if you have a child who was really upset and sad, you can mirror that with your body, you can get lower with them, and you can talk to them at a lower level and put your hand on your on their shoulder. But if you have a child who's really angry and frustrated, "My brother just ripped apart my favorite stuffed animal!" and, you know, I, I invite parents to match that same energy with their child and get bigger and meet their effect and just tell them how frustrated it is that they this just happened. That's co-regulating, it's showing through your body through or voice through your aspect that I hear you, I see you. And then a child begins to be able to regulate themselves as we, as we kind of practice and learn and model that.

Hannah Choi 07:03

So so much of, of helping our kids is learning first, for ourselves what we need to do to help ourselves and then through that we can help our kids.

Sherry Fleydervish 07:16

That conversation invites a lot to understand our own systems, you know, I help parents understand what comes up for them as their child moves through different things that maybe, maybe transitions are really difficult. And so I invite them to wonder what does that feel like for you to when that is happening. And so the first step is regulating yourself, you can't help you can't help your child you can't help them regulate when you are in that state of dysregulation as well. So it really starts with just taking, taking a deep breath, and being you know, taking care of yourself first.

Hannah Choi 07:52

And it's so hard to do that. It's so hard to, at least I personally find myself feeling like well, that whole idea of putting your putting that mask on the oxygen mask on first, it's so hard in the moment, or just in the busyness of life, it's so hard to remember to do that. And, and that's, that's why I am always I think anybody who knows me, well, I'm always talking about self-care. And, and I think part of it is because I'm trying to remind myself like Hannah, you have to do that too. But it's so important to to take care of ourselves first.

Sherry Fleydervish 08:28

I think even just hearing that it's okay to pause and put your mask on. And model that's, that's a modeling moment. You know, mom needs a break, mom needs 10 seconds before she can figure out how to help solve this problem. That's, that's everything. And your kiddo feels like they can do that, too.

Hannah Choi 08:43

You mentioned transitions. And I know that's a really big, that's something that a lot of our clients find challenging. And I just know kids in general, and even adults can find transitions challenging. What what do you suggest for parents or ourselves? If we struggle with transitions? Do you have some kind of go to strategies that you'd like to suggest?

Sherry Fleydervish 09:08

Transitions are so so hard, and especially ones where we're moving from something that we're really enjoying and really liking and maybe can be regulating for us too, for example, you know, if your kid's playing video games that is actually really regulating and then they're, we're asking them to move to homework or dinnertime or whatever it might be - bedtime, that isn't so regulating for them. And so, just being mindful of that piece, too, when we're supporting our kids through a transition, it's just how you're approaching it and your own. You know, I talked about expectations a lot - the expectations that you don't even realize you have as you're leading up to a transition, what you want it to be like, even if you're expecting it to be abrupt because maybe it has been in the past and then tying in this topic of Co-regulation, how can you use yourself to help your kid get from A to B? Does, you know if the video game is super regulating, can you come in and say, "Okay, you have five minutes left. And then as soon as you turn off, we're going to pass the ball outside. Or as soon as you turn off, we're going to go, you can pick up your favorite game, and we're going to play it for five minutes before we move to dinner", or get out the house or whatever it is. You are offering yourself up to play into be almost like the little train to get from regulation to task that I don't really like so much. But just use yourself as a tool to do that. And that's in the moment. And then before it's trying to set up for structure and as much as as much as you can you have a plan for how often or how long you're going to be playing each game or doing each activity or whatever it might be, so that your child feels as as prepared as they possibly can for the next for the next things.

Hannah Choi 11:08

Transitions are so hard. I see just parents struggling with them on the playground after school. When the kids are they've come out of school and they're going on to the playground to play and then it's time to go. And I often hear parents say like, "Oh, I don't want to tell them it's time to go because then I know what I'm going to have to deal with". So what could a parent do in a situation like that?

Sherry Fleydervish 11:34

Oh my gosh, notice that notice that dread? Notice that worry? You know Where's where's this gonna go today? Are we gonna get to the car, are we gonna have a dragging, screaming kid to the car. Just be mindful of that. First off, take a deep breath before you're going. And then how? How can you enter that same playful state that they're in right out there on the playground? They're playing. They're having so much fun. And then they hear time to go right now? What if it was, "Hey, this seems like such a fun game of tag. Can you go and tag whoever it is that's next. And then we're going to head out". It's - you enter, join in the play join in even if it's for a minute, I bet that that minute ends up being more worth it than the potential 10 minutes or the potential screaming, you know, just join in notice what they're playing and then kind of come out together to the car.

Hannah Choi 12:40

That's so smart. Seems like co-regulation is I mean, it probably doesn't work every time I imagine. But if it sounds like it's a great strategy to practice a lot.

Sherry Fleydervish 12:51

It might not, you might get, "I don't want to I don't want to go. This is too much fun. I don't want to leave". You can still co-regulate, right? You could say "Yes, I know you're having so much fun. And you don't want to go to piano. You think piano sucks. And this is so much more fun". That's still you're still entering and you're still like meeting them for that really frustration. But we do have to go so like I'm, I want to help you I want to problem solve right now how to make this easier.

Hannah Choi 13:19

So sure, that read that makes me think of this idea that we should just stay calm, you know, and so that kind of makes me think maybe we shouldn't just stay calm. Maybe we like you said we need to meet them where they are. And it feels a little strange for me to think Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, to get angry with them. But, but then it really shows them that we understand where they are.

Sherry Fleydervish 13:43

I hear this so often, it's um, I tried to stay so calm, I stay so calm, I have, you know, me as calm as I can with my voice and all of these pieces. And that's incredible if you can, if you can be there. But that idea of mirroring your child's emotion, emotional state, it's okay to not be cool as a cucumber, you know, because if you hear a child to saying, you know, I'm just I'm so so sad. I'm so bummed out or I'm so angry and I'm so frustrated. Kind of like what we said earlier, it's, it's okay to meet them with that with that same emotion it shows mom and dad or whoever feels can feel that way too. So

Hannah Choi 14:30

I remember my mom when I first started working with kids as a teenager, my mom gave me some advice. And she said, when a kid is upset or just won't stop talking to you just say back to them what they have said to you, just repeat back to them what they've just said to you. And and it's and they just sometimes just want to be heard. So this idea of it's almost like this idea of co-regulation like they you are acknowledging their feelings. You're not You're telling them through your behavior that these feelings are okay. Is that would you say that's an accurate description?

Sherry Fleydervish 15:07

I love that I love that advice so much because it just shows a child it shows your child that it's it is okay to have all of these feelings. And later on, you know, addressing the behaviors and the way that you express them. That's that's a different story. But you you're modeling that it's okay to have have all of those different emotions, and they're welcome here, too.

Hannah Choi 15:28

Yeah great, thanks, Mom!! One time I was in a store and there was this little boy and he was probably three or four. And he kept saying he was with his grandparents and he kept saying over and over and over again. Like, I want Mommy, I want Mommy and they were they were yah. Yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, you'll see her later. Mommy's busy or whatever, and I want mommy he kept saying, I went up to him, and I said, you want your mommy? He said, Yeah. And then he stopped yelling about it. Like, see, you just need to say back to him, He just wants someone to acknowledge that.

Sherry Fleydervish 16:11

Sometimes we just we miss that piece. And, and, and it's almost out of the moment, it seems so simple or from, from that, from the observer, you saw that, like, that kid just wants his mom, you just want your mom so bad. You're so you just miss her. You know, and it stepped him right? Back into right back into it like, well, this adult just heard me okay.

Hannah Choi 16:35

But I guess it shows that when you are the parent or the caregiver in the moment, it's hard to, to step out and say, and like look at it, like an observer. Look at it like that crazy lady who just talked to my grandkid.

Sherry Fleydervish 16:52

It's a lot easier not in the moment to do that. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 16:55

So do you have any strategies for when you are in the moment, and it's hard, and you're having trouble getting out of it as as, as an adult.

17:03

The first step, it's just it's noticing, and maybe taking a step back, and maybe even getting lower getting on your child's level. And just even if, if it just means, you know, just looking at them in the eye and saying, you're just, you know, you're so worried about, you know, the test that you have tomorrow at school, if your kid just won't stop talking about I have to study I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to prepare this way. And my my advice is, is not so much to focus on the behavior, but to focus on the emotion underneath of what your child is saying. And just get curious with them, they might not be able to tell you how they feel. But they're communicating through even that little boy in the grocery store was probably feeling worried or missing, or just wanted, wanted his mom. And that's an opportunity for us to say and wonder, I wonder if you're feeling worried right now you don't know where Mommy is. Or I wonder if you're just nervous for your test tomorrow, we can pull the emotion out of the over and over and over talk that we hear. Notice maybe what it's bringing up for you, that might be the same feeling that your kids feeling, and isn't able to communicate it.

Hannah Choi 18:22

Being able to label your emotions is so important. And I feel like I and I think that is a skill that goes along with emotion with executive function. And just sort of that emotional awareness. And that's a big part of emotional regulation is labeling your emotions? Do you have any strategies for all ages for little kids up to adults for helping to figure out what you're feeling or maybe helping someone else to figure out what they're feeling? Because I imagine a lot of our coaches might need to help their clients figure out what they're feeling and maybe the client doesn't know what they're feeling, and they're hoping to figure that out.

Sherry Fleydervish 19:04

I always say as the whether you are the that whatever adult you are that's in that child's life, or that teenagers like it's, it's okay to guess and it's okay to guess wrong. You know, if you're noticing that a child is something just changed, you can just say, Oh, I just noticed something changed now. What happened for you, but what's going on right now, and it might not come out as a feeling. It might be I'm thinking this or you can you can still use that to be curious about the moment and if they can't connect to what they're what they're feeling, then maybe you can help them connect with what's going on in their body and I invite all ages, clients of all ages to do that. And if they can't express to me what they're feeling then I asked them to just draw it you know, can you pick a color can you draw what that what that feeling feels like in your body? Can you identify it somewhere inside write up your body right now. Or where that change just happened. It doesn't have to be through communication through through verbally, we can find other outlets. And maybe it's just a quick journal for a teenager or for us to just, I don't really know what's going on. But I'm just going to write for a minute and see what kind of comes out.

Hannah Choi 20:20

So something that that comes up a lot for, for us as coaches and I think just us as humans, and is what I talked about in our first episode is this idea of failure. And I the emotions that go along with that, and how I think with for people with executive function challenges, we, you know, people can often feel like failures, and there's a lot of emotions there and anxiety that might come up. And do you do have any, what's your insight on that, like the connection between between executive function and feelings, emotions,

Sherry Fleydervish 21:05

To follow up on the conversation about failure that you bring up is just how I loved the first episode that you released when we were talking about failure, because it is an it is a learning opportunity. But in the moment, it sure doesn't feel that way. It was really, really, really bad. And we have our own self beliefs that show up and start spiraling. And then we have all the messages that we've heard, you know, and if you're a kid or teenager struggling with some executive functions as well, then at school, you're probably oftentimes getting redirected and reminded and something wrong. And it's really hard not to internalize all of that, and end up with these negative thoughts about ourselves kind of swirling.

Hannah Choi 21:56

Well, I was just going to ask Sean, if he was comfortable sharing your own experience growing up, I know that you can relate personally to some of what Sherry was just saying, you want to share any of your experience.

Sean Potts 22:09

Yeah, I, I grew up most of my life, not really knowing I had had ADHD, it was one of those things where I would never really love going to school, it was very hard for me to sit still, it was very hard for me to like, have that sort of rigid, structured time. And that, you know, there was definitely a lot of friction that happens when I was younger around that, you know, and my parents noticed it at a fairly young age. And that led to me getting my first ADHD diagnosis tests when I was probably in fourth grade. And for whatever reason, I didn't get diagnosed at that time. So the problems continued to get worse. And until about halfway through middle school, when it was just sort of kind of hard to ignore the level of executive dysfunction that I was experiencing. I mean, I was a C/D student and I, you know, could never sit still, I was constantly getting kicked out of the classroom for whatever annoyance my 12 year old self was contributing to the classroom and distracting from learning. So I eventually at that age, was able to get diagnosed with ADHD. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey to treating it. I mean, of course, getting that diagnosis is huge. So from there, very soon after, you know, we started doing trials with medication. And also, I mean, that was a big component. But the biggest for me, it was definitely the executive function coaching. I got, I started working with a coach when I was at this point about 13, 14. You know, it took a little while, probably a year after my diagnosis before I really got moving forward with coaching. And for me, the transformation that happened was just like, was unbelievable. You know, within six months, I would say I was coaching, I was almost a completely different student I was, I was getting A's, which was the first time in my life and you know, I, there was no C's to be found on my report card. But more importantly, I rebuilt this confidence that I felt like I had lost from my years of going to school with untreated ADHD and just feeling like I was so different. That was huge. All of a sudden, I was like, teachers were complimenting me and I was, you know, like, the, my parents didn't have to nag me about homework. And I was feeling really confident in my abilities. And it was a big revelation. I think that confidence was sort of the the boost I needed moving forward. And now looking back, it's been what? Over 10 years since I had started coaching at this point. I'm 25 and the you know, I still am so grateful for the experience I had then, but I also recognize a lot of the problems that I had are not isolated incidents that I only experienced. I mean people all over the world have on untreated ADHD and the consequences of that can be really substantial, both on their mental health, their sense of self and their, you know, future prospects. So I'm have become very passionate about that. It's why I also love my job now working as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, where I'm able to educate and spread awareness and advocate for a lot of the stuff that I struggled with and so many other people struggle with. So it's really cool to be here and talking to both of you about this, it's really, it's kind of an amazing, full circle to be here and be able to talk about it in the way that I am.

Sherry Fleydervish 25:35

Oh, that's, it's a really important piece to bring up. And I appreciate you sharing a little bit about that diagnosis coming a little bit later in adolescence too and what that must be like to experience or go through all of those years of school and not really understand what's different about how your brain works, and what your brain needs, until later on. And when we tie in mental health. And what we know about regulation, as well, is that we can't really access those thinking decision-making parts of our brains when we're not emotionally regulated. And so mental health, and if we're struggling with, even if it's stress, or anxiety, or depression, or whatever it might be our whole, we aren't able to plan and organize and our memories impacted. All those pieces that we need to be successful are, it just makes it harder to do that to get there.

Hannah Choi 26:36

And I imagine if you have grown up with this continuous message that you're hearing over and over and over again, that you're a failure, I mean, that maybe that's not the words they're using. But that's might be the message you're receiving. And imagine that that causes an amazing amount of stress on the brain, and then makes it even more challenging to access the executive function skills that that are already challenging.

Sherry Fleydervish 26:59

Absolutely. Yeah. You. It's, you know, those beliefs and your own perception of your own abilities, and can lead to some of those thoughts. And then that I can imagine how then having those feelings, and maybe leading to that either leading to avoidance or anxiety and not wanting to go to school or not wanting to go certain places where maybe those feelings have come up in the past and all of those things, kind of becoming comorbid and leading to each other.

Sean Potts 27:33

Yeah, absolutely. That's totally true. And I think, from my own experience, and from the research that's been done, I think there was something that said that by the time someone with ADHD turns 10, they've heard, I think, 10,000 more corrective messages than their neurotypical peers, which is, I find very sad, because that has a big ripple effect that impacts someone with ADHD's perception of themselves, first and foremost, but also of their capacity to do things and their confidence. And that, again, it has a ripple effect later in life that really impacts your mental health, your sense of self, your, again, your confidence. And I find that to be one of the saddest things about untreated ADHD is the fact that there's this coexisting mental health risk that people with ADHD also have. This leads me to my first real question, which is for you, Sherry. And it's that I'm very interested from the work that you've done, how you've seen some of the impact that that type of corrective messaging or other challenges that people with ADHD have, how that's manifested into mental health challenges, and the clients that you work with, would love to hear anything you have to say on that subject?

Sherry Fleydervish 28:53

I'm just thinking about the first thing that comes to mind is this environment, the environment of school, and what is expected of students, and how if you're not fitting in, maybe because of your ADHD diagnosis, executive functioning challenges, you're not fitting in with what is expected. And where I start, oftentimes, I do collaborate with schools, and I'll kind of talk about how I do that with my clients. But it's first starting with, with my clients and with their families, and recognizing that maybe these pieces of the environment actually aren't working with me or for my brain or for how I needed and so not necessarily adapting yourself in that moment, but I'm more wondering how can the teachers support the state that you have, and how can we adjust this expectation to fit in with what you what you need and talking with teachers and maybe even providing some education to about how oftentimes these students are experiencing redirections? And how can we You help them without constantly correcting correcting their behaviors. Instead, working with teachers has been really, really validating for for all the families and the clients that I work with. Because just knowing just a student going into school knowing that my teacher gets it, you know, she knows that I'm not trying to misbehave, or trying to be a bad kid, or whatever it is that had been coming up in the past is is not the case and knows that, you know, I'm trying to try and make the best that I can.

Hannah Choi 30:36

Have you noticed an increase in opportunities to work with teachers? Like are, is there more of a, are educators becoming more aware of kind of like a holistic approach to teaching?

Sherry Fleydervish 30:52

Absolutely, I, I really, really appreciate all of the teachers that I that I'm able to collaborate with, and that they're able to take the time to speak with me for, you know, 15, 20 minutes about one of their 30 students, and there is so much more social emotional learning going on in the classroom these days, it's truly incredible. And then that insight is so helpful for therapy, I use everything that the teachers are giving me all those observations, and bringing them into the room. And then life on on the flip side, as well, I feel that teachers are craving this piece and needing it and wanting to know what works best for each student. And they're so willing to implement it, because that's all they want is the success of their students. And then unfortunately, a lot of times, it's you know, what, if you're not supporting my kid, you're not doing what they need. And teachers are self-internalizing, to, like, I can't connect with this kid. And this is so hard, where, you know, I try so hard to just let teachers know you're doing the best that you can. And it's not, you know, some kids have different needs, and how, how open they are to having those vulnerable conversations, something I'm really grateful for.

Hannah Choi 32:03

And I imagine that there's also it also varies from school, depending on the, you know, the the leadership, and how aware of the leadership is of, of the importance of social emotional regulation, and just how important that piece is, I was just talking recently with our, my, my children's elementary school principal. And, and she was saying that, that for her, that's number one that's, that comes first. And the happiness of her teachers, you know, is just so important, and that she sees mental health as the most important thing first for everybody. I love. I just loved hearing that. And, and so that's great that you're seeing a lot of partnership between schools and mental health providers.

Sean Potts 32:48

Yeah, that's a great point, Hannah. And Sherry, I'm just curious, I just have a quick question for you, too. Do you find in the work that you do, that teachers have become more aware or perceptive to the, to these issues around ADHD and executive function than they were, let's say 10 years ago, because from my experience growing up, it really felt like, almost no fault of their own, teachers just didn't really know about these challenges, they didn't really know how to handle them. And because of that, oftentimes, you know, that would manifest into frustration or other areas like that. And I'm just, I'm just curious, if you think that's changed at all, in the last 10 years, in the work that you've been doing,

Sherry Fleydervish 33:27

I think, you know, to Hannah's point, it definitely depends on the administration, the higher-ups and what that, you know, the different environments and of each school as well. But overall, I definitely see teachers were invested on that mental health, emotional piece, I think, because there's so much more education out there on it, the stigma is decreasing, and so many more people are open to therapy, and there isn't this huge stigma on it, for lack of a better word, that it seeps into education, and it seeps into the teachers as well, you know, they are recognizing that they have their own things going on too, then it's so much easier to see and to connect with students who are also experiencing that. And so, I think overall, just it's, it's a lot easier to have those conversations and teachers are really willing to go there.

Hannah Choi 34:27

And breaking down that stigma around mental health and therapists and you know, taking care of our mental health is so important. And and why continuing to have these conversations and normalizing the idea of having a therapist normalizing the idea of, yes, everyone has executive function challenges like I am the first one to admit Yeah, I'm a coach and I love helping people and I also really struggle with in certain areas of executive function, and you and just just having these conversations and showing people You can talk about it, and it's okay. And talking about it is going to help, it will help, it'll help someone. Oh, that's great to hear that that conversation is happening more.

Sherry Fleydervish 35:13

And sometimes even just talking to teachers on that note of acknowledging your own challenges, whatever, whatever it might be, you know, that is such a great way to connect with your kid, you know, or your student, whoever it might be that, you know, I have a really hard time organizing my stuff to, here's something that has helped me or let's problem solve together, let's, let's work through this, let's figure out how to do it. Just that little piece, that little nugget, I'll have kids come in, and just tell me that they had this great talk with their teacher, and the teacher might not have even noticed that it was just this little piece little thing that they connected on, you know, I felt this way before. That's everything can be everything.

Hannah Choi 35:50

I see that a lot in my clients, whenever I you know, if I share something that I've really struggled with, I see, like visible relief on their face, like, wow, this person who's supposedly, you know, obviously, she knows something about executive function. She has struggled with it, too. And it's, yeah, it's so important to share that. Although it can be scary to be open about your own struggles, your own challenges. But I think it gives everyone else permission to think, oh, I actually feel that way too sometimes. And that's okay.

Sherry Fleydervish 36:24

I've worked through that over the years as a therapist, and how to self-disclose and learning how to disclose in a way that's really validating, and opening up this place of, of comfort. And it sounds like you're working on that same thing, too. And just showing, no, I have, I have these struggles, too. And I have these feelings. And these eyes open up so wide, some of these kids like, well, you know, adults that I model also experience struggles.

Hannah Choi 36:56

And it's okay. Something that reminds me of the idea, I can't remember what it's called, you probably know, the, the idea where you can feel two different two opposing feelings about the same thing at the same time. So the idea of replacing but with and then so that reminded me of Sean, your your experience growing up? And how, if you had, maybe you've received the message, like, you know, you, you are, you need to work on your organization or whatever, and you're, you're a great student, or you're a good, you know, you might have heard like, yeah, you're smart, but you, you know, need to work on this. And it kind of negates everything that was said first. So do you is that a strategy that you have shared with people? Or is that something that's coming up for you lately?

Sherry Fleydervish 37:56

I think that when you're when you're offering that opportunity of learning, right, that's usually what what we're doing, at the end of the day, when you're offering criticism, or you're offering your observation or whatever it might be, it's an opportunity for that other person to, to learn or in your mind get better at whatever that challenge is. And so we have to sandwich those pieces with, obviously, things that will make them feel proud of themselves and feel accomplished. And then when you're adding in these pieces of but you can do this next time or but whatever it might be, you know, here's the place, sometimes I'll say it like this, you know, your brain works really, really good at your, you have a great memory, you're very creative. And you have an ability to see all these little details that everybody else may not be able to see, but your brain at, or I don't even want to say but your brain has a little bit of a harder time with shifting attention from this to this or from whatever activity we're doing before to this one. And so maybe connecting with, with that actual piece that they're struggling with. And saying, you know, I'm here with you, I want to help. I want to help you strengthen this part of your brain, I want to help this not be so hard for you. And connecting with you know how hard it is for them feeling that comes up for them. And then working together to be kind of kind of like a consultant or that you know, how can we problem solve together?

Hannah Choi 39:36

And that makes me think of the idea of meeting someone where they are and and not asking more of them that they are then they're ready for and figuring out what their strengths are and how they can use those strengths. Sean, do you remember do you think have you ever thought about that concept of like, of, of you can be this One of the thing and the and the kind of opposite at the same time. And do you think that any of the messaging that you received growing up as a kid with ADHD, do you think if you had been told this message of you have challenges, and you're like, you're this and you're that instead of you're this, but you're that, do you think that would have made a difference for you?

Sean Potts 40:21

Oh, yeah, I think that would have made a huge difference. Particularly around when I was maybe nine years old, I remember I just had this one teacher that just never really understood or got me beyond the surface level challenges that she saw. And my mom often recalls this one parent teacher conference, or the typical one that would happen near the end of the year, where she, you know, once the conference with my dad, and you know, for the next 20, 30 minutes, my teacher just kept listening, all these negative things I was doing wrong. And eventually she just snapped and was like, "Do you have anything positive to say about my son?" And I think that's the best example of what it was really like for me being in the classroom every day with the teacher who saw me in that way. And I remember the next year, I had just such a an upgrade, where I had a teacher who immediately got me and saw some things that I didn't even see in myself, particularly around writing and creativity and some things that I've since learned that I really like. And the first time the parents come into the classroom, she mentioned how the first thing she said to my mom, when she came up to her was your son, so creative. He's such a great writer, and my mom tells me that she just started crying, because from her perspective, she had been hearing these negative things. And that was in stark contrast to what she knew about me. But at a deeper level, it was a stark contrast to it, I felt like I knew about myself, but I had really impacted me hearing all the things I had heard that year before from that one teacher, and some of the ways that she approached my challenges. So, you know, I really think it would have been a huge help to have had that earlier. And I think, you know, overcoming that was a huge part of my journey with my ADHD and the executive dysfunction I was experiencing. So no, absolutely, I think that would have made a huge difference. But I also do recognize that I was lucky to have had a teacher like that. And I also recognize that there are a lot of students who don't. And that's really, really sad and unfortunate, because I think anyone growing up with those types of challenges, needs to needs to meet somebody who can see you as an individual beyond just those sorts of those surface level challenges. So that you can realize that they're really just that surface level challenges. They're not some inherent character flaws that makes you you know, irrevocably messed up are different. They're a challenge that you have a whole lifetime to be able to overcome. But within that, you also have your strengths. And if you can have a teacher or somebody in your life who can help you realize that as someone who's young with ADHD, I think that is one of the most important ingredients for future success. And I again, I feel very lucky to have had that both in that teacher but also in my coach.

Hannah Choi 43:07

Yeah, and then what you said about confidence, I mean, that keeps coming up in every conversation that I have had, I feel like about everything recently, but especially these conversations for the podcast is it all seems to come back to confidence. And I imagine share, you see that a lot in both your clients and the parents of your clients. And that when you learn the skills, then you become more confident, which then helps in I imagine more ways than we will ever know for people.

Sherry Fleydervish 43:39

That is something that comes up in almost every intake, "I just I want my kid to feel more confident". And that shows up in every aspect, then up up their identity. And when I bring kids into my office, that is one of the first things that I work on is Where do you feel your best? Because these are not, kind of to Sean's point, these are not conversations or things that kids just inherently think about, you know, where my where am I? Where do I feel the best? Where do I feel strong? Where do I feel empowered, and confident? I bet you every kid you speak to will actually have an example of it. But then and offering your own piece if they don't you know why see how how focused you are whenever you're drawing in session. Or seems like you're three steps ahead when we're playing Connect 4 for every single week. Those are these little pieces where you're starting to notice other their notice there's their confidence when they might not even be seeing it themselves. And then using that to work towards some of the challenges and the pieces the things that they want to see different in their own lives. Even five year olds can tell me "I want to feel less of this feeling and more of this feeling". Like, Okay, great. Well, using the things that I know where you feel competent, we're going to, we're going to build on those pieces that feelings you don't want to have any more the challenges you're having at school. You're not just this one thing.

Hannah Choi 45:17

That reminds me of a conversation I had with my family recently, we went around the room, and we challenged each other to come up with five things that we were really good at, we had to say it about ourselves. It was so hard. It was such a hard thing to do. And I think you're right, we don't naturally think that way. And, and so how great to start off, you know, a conversation with someone that way i when I've meet for when I first meet a new client, I always ask them, so what are you good at? And it's it's hard to think that way. But it's important. Yeah. Great to have any. Sean, do you have any other questions for sherry?

Sean Potts 45:59

Yeah, so for the clients that you work with that have, let's say, anxiety and depression, but also have ADHD where these two, these two, or maybe even three things are existing simultaneously? How do you assess where to start treatment? Do you start with the ADHD? Do you start with the depression, anxiety, what's the focal point for treatment, and why?

Sherry Fleydervish 46:23

This happens often, right? Where a client is experiencing symptoms of different diagnoses, and maybe if it has comorbid diagnoses already coming into, into my session. And I start by just really, really, really, for a moment, putting aside that diagnosis, and noticing what is what is showing up the most, and what is the most symptomatic, and what is getting in the way most for this client. You know, if they have dual diagnosis, then maybe we need to first focus on that anxiety. And that is the most important and to figure out how to calm your mind calm, your body be a little bit more regulated. So then you can tackle some of those some of those pieces and those thoughts. And then we can dive into the other diagnoses or the other symptoms, you know, that the diagnosis is important and really validating for so many people. And for me, too, and it helps with treatment, but just kind of looking at a client and a person as a whole, and parsing out what is what is really the most important thing to support in the beginning. And everything else will eventually fall into place.

Hannah Choi 47:36

I find that to with coaching, you know, we always start off like, what's the thing that's the hardest for you right now? Like, what's the thing that's causing the most stress for you, and the thing that, that that's keeping you up at night, and just starting there, and you're right, I do find that the other things kind of end up naturally just getting involved and and leading into them. And then and then I do notice also that some of the challenges that came up, once we address those challenges, they actually were associated with some of the other stuff too. So then it makes the other stuff that used to be super challenging, also a little bit less challenging, just by working on this one other thing.

Sherry Fleydervish 48:19

I wonder if it's that they're building on their strengths, or they're starting to feel more competent in one area, and it kind of just even without even that conversation happening. It's just starting to morph into those other places. Other things.

Hannah Choi 48:32

It's pretty magical to see. So I imagine you have that experience as well. Yeah, thank you so much, Sherry. It's just so interesting to listen to you talk and and you have such a calm manner about yourself. I bet your clients just love talking with you.

Sherry Fleydervish 48:51

I loved this conversation, I feel like we just I wish it happened more. I wish these conversations were out there more just kind of normalizing therapy and parenting support. You know, it's just, you need the space, you know, and it's not just a drop-off service. I won't let that happen. I don't let that happen in my office. I make sure parents know from the beginning. I don't care if your, you know, your kiddos coming in here, five or 17. You know, I want to work together so that what's going on in my sessions is is coming and translating at home, too.

Hannah Choi 49:32

When when my kids were little I lived on Cape Cod and I have to give a shout out to Cindy Horgan at the Cape Cod Children's Place. It's a an organization that provides support for young families on the outer and lower cape. And my kids went or my Yeah, my kids went to preschool there and she approaches it like that when you. Yes, your kids go to school there, but she supports the parents so much and you could just make an appointment to go talk with her about any parenting challenges that you're having, and she just wrapped you right up in her, you know, figurative arms and just kept you, you know, gate gave you great strategies and and, and she was so great she was so open about her own challenges and just normalized everything so much. And just what you were saying right there just reminds me so much of that experience and I wish that every, every child, and every parent would have an opportunity to work with someone like Cindy Horgan. So. So thanks, Sherry, could you share with our listeners, where we where they can find you if they're interested in asking you more questions or learning more about you?

Sherry Fleydervish 50:42

Absolutely. So you can find my profile on bestselfinc.com. And you can also find a whole lot of other resources for children, teens, parents, families of logs, and resources are all on our website. You can even subscribe to our family newsletter. And we often will send blogs through that updates, anything that we've written.

Hannah Choi 51:08

I'll be sure to include all of that information in our show notes, too. So if you're listening, check out the show notes. And you can find it there too. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I just I loved every second of this conversation. I feel like I could have talked for a whole nother hour, but maybe maybe another day.

Sean Potts 51:28

Absolutely. Thank you both. This has been such a pleasure to join this conversation.

Sherry Fleydervish 51:33

Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful to be here.

Hannah Choi 51:38

And that's our show for today. Thank you for joining me and taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode. As Sherry said, it's so important to have these conversations about mental health, executive function challenges and parenting support. The more we talk about these so called stigmas, the more we normalize them, and by normalizing them more and more people will be able to access the support they need without negative reactions from the people around them. And here at Focus Forward, we will continue to have these important and sometimes difficult conversations in the hopes that we help someone, somewhere. If you are interested in normalizing these topics, please check out the show notes for some tips on how you can help. Oh, and hey, you can start off by sharing our podcast with your friends. If you haven't yet, subscribe to this podcast app beyond booksmart.com/podcast. You'll get an email about every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Supporting kids with Executive Function challenges is hard enough, but what happens when they're feeling resistance towards changing their habits? How can parents and key support systems work together to inspire real change - even in those who may not see the value in it just yet? On this week's episode, I sat down with one of my favorite people, Kim - the mom of one of my long-time coaching clients, Skyla. As you’ll hear in today’s episode, our first session together four years ago was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love, consistency, support, and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla’s coach and I can’t quite believe that I finally have the opportunity. So listen in to hear her mom Kim and I tell our story of Skyla’s success. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey and that you leave feeling inspired in your own Executive Function journey.

Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Kim about her and her daughter’s journey.

Test Prep and Managing Test Anxiety

Understanding Test Anxiety

How to Overcome Test Anxiety

Student Stress: Untangling the Anxiety and Executive Function Connection

Organization Resources

Clutterbug - Find out what kind of organization strategies work best for you

Understanding why kids struggle with organization

Emotional Regulation

Self-Reg with Stuart Shanker

Permission to Feel by Marc Brackett, Ph.D.

Whole-Brain Child by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D.

Foster Care and Adoption

Adopt US Kids

Childwelfare League of America

Internatonal Adoption

Resources for Foster Families

National Foster Parent Association Resources

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:03

Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

So four years ago, I was paired with a new client, and her name was Skyla. And at the time, she was a fourth-grader who was in the process of being adopted, and she was being adopted with her younger sister by a woman called Kim. And the first day we met, it was a sunny day in March of 2018. And we met up at a local public library for our first coaching session. This was BC, you know, before COVID, before we switched to entirely online coaching. Anyway, I knew from the start that this was going to be a unique experience for me as a coach. As you'll hear in today's episode, that first day was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love and consistency and support and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla's coach, and I can't quite believe that I finally have the opportunity to do this. So keep listening to hear her mom cam and I tell our story of Skyla's success, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey. Hi, Kim, this is so great having you here today? Could you start off by introducing yourself and sharing your family's journey to executive function coaching? And before you start, I just want to say thank you again for talking with me today.

Kim 01:51

No problem, happy, happy to do it for you, Hannah. Yes, so I mean, I my journeys started, geez, it was probably 2016 in in, you know, looking to adopt children and going through the process of becoming a foster parent, and then identifying two girls, young girls that were in need of a permanent home. And so, you know, Desi and Skyla, came into my life and began living with me in 2017, February of 2017. And, you know, certainly in foster care for reason, their background was was quite a difficult one and a challenging one. And they had a lot to sort of work through and had missed, you know, a lot of, you know, critical academic aspects of of learning, because of their biological home and the circumstances, they're so sort of coming in and putting them into a parochial school with a hope that, you know, some structure would would help them be able to, you know, advance in their studies and catch up quite a bit. But, you know, became clear that additional supports are going to be needed. And so I think I found Beyond BookSmart on just doing a Google search, I feel like that's the way I came across it. And it turned out to be great. Uh, you know, I was hooked up with you, Hannah, and, you know, I think starting in March of 2018. And from that point forward, you've been working with Skyla, and, you know, amazing progress. I mean, really, just, like I said, from, you know, night, today day to night, it has, it has been really a, a real metamorphosis, so to speak. And in terms of her approach her thinking, her emotional regulation, her, you know, confidence is incredible as to where it started. So it's been, it's just been so helpful. And, you know, I think that it's, it's not just about the work and, you know, helping her with the work she needs to do. It really is more of the emotional and organizational skills that I think she she just had no idea how to do those things. And so, this was a huge, huge step in the right direction for her.

Hannah Choi 04:47

So I know it's been four years. But do you remember how you felt?

Kim 04:53

Yes, I do. I remember being just frustrated and had no idea how to handle some of the issues that were coming up. You know, there was significant meltdowns, you know, at homework time that carried on for hours hours of, of her just crying, "I don't know what to do. I'm stupid. I don't know how to do this". And, you know, was it a, an attempt to avoid actually doing the work? Or did she really feel that she didn't know how to do it? And I think, you know, looking back, it was a combination of the two. But yeah, it was really frustrating, like, how do you help her when, you know, she's so clearly emotional, and upset and unable to even like, get to a starting point, and then try to go through it. So it was, I was, I was very frustrated. And, you know, she was very frustrated too. So was really looking for some help, just how do we, how do we make this better? How do we help her focus more and, you know, understand that school is something you're going to have to do, you're not going to get out of it. But, you know, let's just try to try to take this emotion out of it. And try to get the work done.

Hannah Choi 06:33

I, I remember, really vividly once working with her in the beginning when she was still in fourth grade, and she was doing something, something with math and and it was really hard for her. And I think, like I remember the session ended, she was really upset. And, and then a few weeks ago, I was talking with her about math, and she was doing an online math thing that in the past has really challenged her emotional regulations. And I and I asked her, "What do you do now when you are working on that math and it's really hard." And she said, "Well, I just notice that if I'm starting to get upset and frustrated, I walk away from it, I just take a break. And I go back to it later". And I was just I told you I was gonna cry. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think about how, what a gift that is for her to have figured that out after so long that now when she's in a frustrating, frustrating situation, she knows how to manage her emotions. And yeah, and like how that is applicable to so many things. It doesn't just have to be math.

Kim 07:54

No, everything, everything. Yeah, yeah, no, I made it. And I know you really hammered that home with her like throughout many of your, your sessions with her and, and that, you know, that ability to just stop pause, whether it's breathe, walk away, just take take a mental break from this for a minute, rather than continue to get more and more frustrated and overwhelmed by what's in front of you. And you know, she definitely has picked that up and has taken it and it's just, it's great to see. I mean, like you said, it's a great life skill. I think probably I could do that at work and that might help me, too.

Hannah Choi 08:39

We can all we can all learn from Skyla. Yeah. Every every time I think about her, your I should say your like yours and hers, journey through this through coaching and just through and not even just coaching but just through the process of adopting them and having them you guys become a family and, and you know, watching both girls really change and blossom and grow and is the idea of just trust, like trust, just like trusting the process trusting that people that you have welcomed into your life as a support system. And, and I just think that this is like her your story is such a great example of of that. Because in even my own experience as her coach, I had to keep telling myself like, trust that trust that what you are, the messages that you are giving to her. They're getting through. And it just it was it was hard sometimes to trust that. Yeah, it was really hard. And it took a really long time. Like I've been trying to get her to breathe, to use breathing as an emotional regulation tool for four years. And she used it in when she took her test. And she said it you know and and she said that was the Is your side system ever taken? And I'm like, I know, there's a lot of factors involved there. And I know that breathing is one of them. And, and so trusting that process like, Have you felt that? through it? Yeah.

Kim 10:13

I mean, you know, I feel like I was in such dire straits when she initially started that I felt like I had no choice. You know, clearly as time has gone on, and I've seen her, you know, make positive, you know, move in a positive direction. It's, it's been, okay, like, you know, we hung in here, she's hung in here, she's starting to take what Hannah's telling her and apply it, and it's, it's just creating much more positive outcome for her and, you know, for for us for everyone. So, yeah, no, I mean, it's, trust is not my strong suit.

Hannah Choi 11:02

It's hard. It's hard to do.

Kim 11:04

Yeah. But, you know, I think that, you know, I, you and I had talked about the plan and what you were gonna focus on with her, and they were all the right things that she needed, as she's gone through the process. So it just made it easy to trust it. And then, you know, seeing it work, but it took a lot of time. I mean, I give you a lot of credit. I mean, this is a kid that, you know, did not come from traditional circumstances. And, you know, it just made everything far more challenging. And but she's, I mean, really just an amazing, in an amazing place right now. I mean, she is, you know, putting in extra effort, rather than the bare minimum. She is, you know, going above and beyond. She comes home, she does her homework before she does anything else. I don't have to ask, I don't even have to worry whether or not she's getting her work done. Because I know she is. And she is so much more confident now. Than where she was. I mean, it's, it's really, I mean, it's so incredible to see. And her grades have have come to a good place. And this year is 8th grade. It's really challenging.

Hannah Choi 12:30

And her school does not make school easy, though. Yeah, confidence is, I would say the one thing that has been the biggest change I've noticed in her and I remember when she was in fourth grade her saying to me, there's no point in getting excited about anything because it probably won't work out. And that just broke my heart. And now I see her excited about stuff even though she's so school is so boring. You know, of course, every kid every kid says yeah, it is. It's boring. Like work is boring for us. Right? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, not all the time. Yeah. But now I just like I remember she didn't ever want to handwrite anything but she also never wanted to type anything. And because she felt like she was too slow of a of a typer but she also felt like her handwriting was so poor. And so so that was there was always so much friction with anything that whenever she had to produce anything, and now she's like, bopping the keys with like, no problem. And her handwriting is gorgeous. And her notes are beautiful

13:45

They are! they're all color coded and highlighted and I mean she's got little little sticky notes in her books with notes in them it's unbelievable. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 14:00

She is such a good student it's incredible and she just uses all the all the tools and she's so organized you I don't know if you remember but when when she first I'm sure you do when she first started coaching she was very resistant to folders and oh yeah, no, it was more into like the shove method just like shove it into the backpack

14:20

Balls of paper in the backpack? Yeah, not no organization whatsoever. It was. Yeah, somewhat horrifying. Could you be that disorganized? Yeah. But now she has like an accordion folder with like everything neatly placed inside. It's it's a total 180 It really

Hannah Choi 14:44

I remember just talking about organization was really stressful for her. She would have really big emotions around changing her organizational style. And now she likes to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, off. So great. Well I love it. So, were there times where you? And I don't know, you can be honest with me, because I know how difficult it is as a parent to trust the people that we, you know, that we bring into our children's lives. But were there times where you where you questioned that? Did I make the right decision with coaching?

Kim 15:19

Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, there's always like, a doubt, like, you know, I think we all want to hit the easy button and like, have things just magically change. And they didn't magically change it. It took a long time. And, you know, I, you know, I think we all want to see progress happen faster. But the, she's a child, children are children, and, you know, they're, they're not working at our pace they're working at at theirs, and it's very different. So, yeah, of course, you know, everyone wants things to happen faster, especially when you know, you're a parent. And, you know, it's not just Skyla I have her sister too, and trying to balance both of them and trying to get them up to speed and get them in a better place. So that they can be successful. You know, there were times where I was like, ah, is this working? Is it not? I don't know. But, you know, I think just hanging in there. And then, you know, continuing to see over time that progress. I mean, it really has, it does take time. It does, it's there's no immediate silver bullet to solve these things. You do have to hang in there. And, you know, but four years, and we've seen incredible progress from

Hannah Choi 16:51

Tremendous, I know. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I think that her story, at least for me, as a coach has been such a great example of looking for these, like, beautiful, small moments, where I see a shift, and I see oh, like she reacted in this tiny little bit different way. And it's like, okay, I'm making some progress. And it is, so it was so minuscule. Like, so tiny. But I saw that, and, and so those tiny little things became, in my, like, in my mind, and my heart became these, like, huge wins. And I, like, I know, typing in my portal notes or emailing you or texting you and being like, yes. Right. Like this thing happened. And it seems like such a small thing, but it's, I've been waiting two years for this or whatever.

Kim 17:48

Right? Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's those small, iterative steps and wins and, you know, changes in her mindset, or just being open to like trying a tool you suggest or, you know, thinking about something a different way, or, you know, it, it takes it takes time to get kids comfortable with that stuff. And, you know, I mean, clearly, you built a great rapport with her from early on. And I think, you know, building that trust with her, allowed a lot to happen, of course, right. Because that's, that's the first step in any process in any human interaction is, is building trust between the coach and the child.

Hannah Choi 18:39

Yeah, yeah, that yeah, that was my I mean, I could tell the, the second I met her, I thought, okay, like, this is, this is not going to be easy, but I was, I was just, I just fell in love with her that first day and I, I just was so excited to, to have the chance to, to, you know, to work with her and, yeah, it. I mean, I, I know, I've told you this 100 times, and I'll continue to tell you it but it's just such a gift for me. I'm so grateful for it. I am just so overwhelmed sometimes by how lucky I feel that I've had her in my life. And I know that I will, like even if our coaching our coach client relationship ends, I know that will stay close because I just I think that I just can't imagine not having her in my life

Kim 19:32

is an amazing girl. And she's a really special child. I mean, she really is in so many ways. And you know, just kind of thoughtful and caring. I honestly she's, she's a gift to you and me.

Hannah Choi 19:53

Right, right. Yeah. So What would it present day Kim, tell tell Kim from 2015 or 2016, like when you first started, you know, thinking about adoption and

Kim 20:11

yeah. You know, I think that it's, you know, I, I went into it, honestly, you know, adopting two children as a single parent, which is a challenge. And then also working quite a number of hours per week. So it, it's been a, it was a really hard adjustment for me early on, I have to admit, like really hard from, you know, spending 40 plus years of your life as a, essentially a single person, and then all of a sudden, there's two little beings in your home all the time.

Hannah Choi 20:54

And they've come from challenging situation.

Kim 20:58

That's right. Yeah. And, you know, it was, I mean, I would never change the circumstances for the world. Never. It was such an amazing, you know, I don't even know what the term to use for it, but just that we found each other, and that we came together as a family, and that they are both, you know, really doing well, and going to, you know, a great private school next year, I would say, do do it, go ahead and adopt those girls and try to make a positive influence on their lives and help them any way you can. So, I think that, yeah, I think that, you know, had I know, now how successful this would have been for, you know, or this has been for Skyla. It would have been so easy going into it, because I would have been like, okay, all right, it's gonna be a few years, I know exactly when this is all going to shake out and be better. But yeah, it was stressful. There's been stressful on the way but it's, it's happening. I mean, like, things are improving, and they're really, really thriving. So it's wonderful to see.

Hannah Choi 22:28

really is, it's, it's, I love your story I love I love everything. I don't, I don't want to think about what would have happened if you hadn't found them. And it's, and also for yourself to like, what a beautiful thing that you've gotten for yourself to?

Kim 22:43

Absolutely, ya know, by far I'm the I'm the person that's getting the most, I think

Hannah Choi 22:51

and what are you looking forward to, for you and for them?

Kim 22:55

Ah, she's, I mean, well, so Skyla starts high school in the fall, I mean, like, I can't even like where did time go crazy, is crazy. And I'm excited for her to be, you know, in a school, it is going to be more challenging than where she has been. And, but I think, you know, she's up for the challenge now. And I think that she's going to do she's gonna do really well. And I think she's going to be surrounded by people that are motivated, and, you know, are going to push her maybe a bit more than where she is now. And I think that will be good for you know, not too much. Right? So but, but definitely a healthy push towards more academic kind of excelling more of an academic from an academic perspective. And, you know, the school also has a lot of sports, and art and theater. And so I really want to see her participate in a lot of those things as well because she loves her painting and she loves, you know, acting, she still threatens that she's gonna go for an audition and become an actress, we'll see.

Hannah Choi 24:14

I could just I could totally see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kim 24:18

So you know, I think that the school is going to offer a lot for her in terms of lots of different things academics, but also socially as well as other courses that I think will be will be great and then my goodness, I can't even think like, she'll be driving at some point. And then off to college. So it's, it's exciting. I think she has a really solid future in front of her and I'm really happy for the help that you've given us. Certainly through this process. I could not have done it. Honestly with without you would have been, Ah, you have so much patience? And I have almost none, so...

Hannah Choi 25:07

Well, you're doing something right, because it can't just be me. Yeah. Well, do you have any questions for me?

Kim 25:19

Right, let's see, what can I ask you? I know it was it was definitely walked into something that was unusual in terms of the circumstances, just given her background. Was it? Was it the hardest child you've ever had to work with?

Hannah Choi 25:39

No way. Although I don't know why me she definitely was very, it was very challenging. But she just kept coming back. Right. Like, like, even when we would have a frustrating session, and she would leave in tears. Or, like, if we had tech problems. It's, you know, and it didn't end well. When we met again, it was like, it never happened. And she was just back. You know, just back to her chip herself. I remember we would have corn parties. Like she would come on to a session if she hadn't eaten yet. It was just like a little dicey. And so I'd be like, alright, what can I get her to eat? And so, so we started this thing. And we still do it today, actually, where if, if like, she's eating something, I will ask her for some. And she gives it to me, like by putting it up to the camera. And we do it without even like, there's no laughter. Yeah, it is as if she is giving me the thing. And we have done this in sessions over the past four years, just the other day, she was eating Maltesers. And I was I love those. And I was like, Oh, can I can I have one? And she very seriously said, Sure, and picked it up and put it up to the camera, and I took it and ate it. And we've been doing that since I think since the first corn party where we both ate corn. I was like, I'm gonna just like get her to eat anything. Yeah, so I like ran upstairs and grabbed myself a bowl of frozen corn, just like eating frozen corn. Well, yeah. And I just, I don't know, I just felt like I said, I just fell for her right away. And I was just so happy to do whatever it took to, to get her to, you know, to do buy in to buy into it and to trust me. Yeah. And that I that I wasn't leaving. I'm not gonna leave. You can give me the hardest day and I'm not going to leave. I'm going to come back next week. Whether you want me to or not? Yes. And so maybe that maybe that is something that strengthened our relationship is that she recognized like that I wasn't gonna give up.

Kim 28:03

Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I, you know, clearly she came from, you know, a background where people did give up, you know, she got moved to different homes. You know, and I, it's funny, as we've talked, you know, she's admitted, like, I, you know, when you came and said you were going to adopt us. She's like, I didn't think like, this was going to be it for me. Like, I really didn't think this, that I was going to stay in one place. I thought I was gonna go somewhere else. And what a horrible I mean, what a horrible way to think but yes, she's stuck with me now. So

28:51

Yeah. And do you remember when the adoption was final? And we both notice, we noticed a really big difference.

Kim 28:58

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 29:03

Oh, yeah. Remember, like one session to the next. It was there was a big change with the adoption in between. That's right. Yeah. And she still has challenging days, right. Like there was we had a session a few months ago, where she just complained about school the entire time. And then the next session, she was like, Oh, look, I got I got 100 on this and I got 100 on that, and I'm gonna do this project. And so we just all have bad days, some days. Just really great at communicating how bad of a day it was.

Kim 29:32

That's right. Yes. No, she's she's very vocal on her bad days. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 29:37

Which is actually really good. Like talking through your stuff is important. Better than holding it in.

Kim 29:43

Absolutely. Yeah. What's What's the longest you've worked with a client?

Hannah Choi 29:53

Skyla

Kim 29:54

is it really? Wow. Wow. Yeah. You Okay.

Hannah Choi 30:01

Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah. And I'm so excited to go to her graduation, her eighth grade. She showed me a picture of the dress she's wearing. So oh, do I have to dress up?

30:15

She's, she's got quite a dress for this. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 30:22

Cool. Well, I, you answered all my questions. Do you have anything else? Anything else you want to say? Or?

30:30

Like, how much time does it take to make meaningful change with with kids? Like, is it? I mean, it's been for years for us. But like, I can't imagine you can do it in six months, or a year or even two year, it has to be an extended period of time. Right.

Hannah Choi 30:53

My sister is also a coach for beyond booksmart. And she has a client she's been working with for six years. He's a senior in high school now. Yeah, it just, it takes a really long time. And I think part of it is just because change is hard. You know, even adults, like most of my clients are adult clients. And, and a lot of them come in thinking like, oh, I'll just do this for six, you know, six months. And you know, here, you know, a year and a half, two years later, they're still still getting a lot of benefit from it. But I think because your executive function skills are not finished developing, that part of your brain is not finished developing until you're in your mid 20s. So there's a lot of learning to be done. And kids who already have challenges in that area, it just makes it even harder. Yeah, yeah, it just takes a really long time. It really does. Especially when, you know, there's other stuff going on, you know, like, like, like, for example, like, schuyler's background, you know, and or just personality. Right. You know, there's, there's so much that ties into it, and then throw in a pandemic,

Kim 31:59

right. Oh, my God.

Hannah Choi 32:01

Right. That messed everything up!

Kim 32:04

Yeah, exactly. It's like two years of this. So

Hannah Choi 32:10

yeah, it's been really hard for most everybody. Almost everyone. Yeah,

Kim 32:16

yeah. Especially the kids. I mean, fortunately, I mean, she was able to be in school, the majority of the time, but yeah, it's still still hard. Or tough two years.

Hannah Choi 32:32

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think that. I think that. I think that, yes, it's taken a long time for Skyla to make a lot of make change. But, but I don't think it's, that's like not, it's not unusual. And it's not It doesn't surprise me, what is the best thing about it is that you have been able to allow her to take her time to do it in in the time that that she needed. And that, you know that you know that she was you that you were in a situation that allowed her to, you know, to just take her time and be herself and find that for herself. And, and I really feel like because it was because we had the patients with her. And because we allowed her to learn that in her own way at her own speed. We met her where she was always right to me, we know that about her, you cannot force anything on her. You know, we just continually had to meet her where she was. But through that process, she's learned so much about herself, and she's learned what will work and we've learned what will work and what won't work. And so now, like, that's all really solid for her now. So like all of these things that she's learned about herself and strategies and tools and what's going to work and what's not going to work and what you've learned about her now. It's so solid in her it's so it's like become part of her because it was allowed to develop naturally. And it was allowed to develop in its own time. And so I think it'll, that that will, like serve her so well over the course of her life. Because it's she's learning them now in this, like formative years, you know, and that she wasn't forced to be anyone but herself. And and as hard as it was. We trusted her and we trusted the process that eventually she would figure it out. Yeah.

Kim 34:33

Yeah, it's been great. I mean, what a story. I Yeah. I was looking at our notes from like, the earlier sessions. And and sort of like after a year after two years after three years and just the different focus areas and the progress and you know, the good days the bad days, but Overall, she's she's just come so far.

Hannah Choi 35:03

I know, it's amazing. That's our story for today. Before I go, I wanted to share that just last week I took Skyla, her sister and my daughter out to lunch, I found myself just mesmerized by the beauty and the intelligence and sense of humor of these three girls. I'm so excited for their futures. And I don't know if I'll ever know how to put into words how lucky I feel to have met Skyla and been given the chance to become someone she trusts. So thank you, Kim, for trusting me. And thank you all for joining me today and taking time out of your day to listen. I really hope that you found something meaningful or inspiring in today's episode. I know for me, it was a really moving and special experience and I feel very fortunate to have been able to share it all with you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to this podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Changing habits is at the core of all personal transformations. However, as we all know, it can be really difficult to stay consistent and disciplined when trying to build new habits. Why is it so hard and how can you actually follow through on new habit goals?

Habit tracking is the practice of choosing habits that you’d like to add to or remove from your life and keeping track of whether you do them or not. Listen to this week’s episode to learn about how tracking habits can help you. You’ll hear some ideas for how to build habit tracking into your life and will hopefully find inspiration to track some habits of your own!

Bullet Journals

www.bulletjournal.com The original, by Ryder Carroll

River Fox BuJo on Pinterest This is my daughter’s bullet journal Pinterest account.

Little Coffee Fox Bullet Journal - Getting fancy with your bullet journal

Little Coffee Fox Minimalist Bullet Journal - Keeping it simple

Habit Tracking Articles for Further Reading

The Ultimate Habit Tracker Guide: Why and How to Track Your Habits by James Clear

Habit Tracker Ideas List - A very long list of things you can track

Why You Should Be Tracking Your Habits and How To Do It from lifehacker.com

How long does it take to form a habit? The explanation of the data of the habit formation study I mention in the episode

Habit Tracking Apps

These were all recommended to me by people who like using them. I have only used Habit Loop myself (which I love).

Habit List - for iPhones

Streaks - for iPhones

Habit Loop - for Android

Habitica - for Android

Books

Atomic Habits by James Clear

Habit Stacking by SJ Scott

Readings on Habit Building Strategies

18 Tricks to Make New Habits Stick - A good list from Life Hack

How to Build New Habits that Stick from Developing Good Habits website by SJ Scott

How to Build a New Habit: This is Your Strategy Guide - from James Clear’s website

And, last but not least, here’s my Chocolate Banana Peanut Butter Smoothie Recipe!

Contact us!

Reach out to us at [email protected]

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

Today I'm diving into the topic of habit tracking. In my episode about managing our emotions around failure, I talked a little bit about thinking like a scientist. Well, habit tracking is an excellent way to put this idea into action. By the way, this episode is packed full of habit tracking ideas and suggestions, so you might want to pause me and grab a pen and paper to write down anything that inspires you. I'll wait. Okay, so what is habit tracking? You may have heard of it already. But just in case you haven't yet, habit tracking is a practice of choosing the habits that you'd like to add to or remove from your life and then keeping track of whether you do them or not. In today's episode, I'll share five ways that habit tracking can be beneficial, and then I'll explain five different methods of tracking your habits.

Before I get started, I want to mention that habit tracking is just one way to support yourself while you're trying to build or break habits. In a future episode, I'll cover some more ideas for making habit building a little easier. If you're too excited to wait for that episode, check out the show notes for this episode. I've listed some useful resources in there for you.

Okay, so let's talk about habit tracking and why we might want to do it. So you can use habit tracking to see your progress. Collecting data over a period of time, even a week can be helpful. But hopefully you can do it for longer. And then over time, you might start to see change happening. And this can be super helpful. And along with seeing progress, you might also notice trends in your data, you can then adjust how you approach that habit. For example, a few years ago, I wanted to reduce my sugar intake because of some health stuff I was dealing with. So I used a habit tracker. I noticed that I always seem to eat sweets on Saturdays, no matter how hard I tried not to I just always ended up eating them on Saturdays. So instead of beating myself up about it, I just said, "Okay, let's just eat a little sugar on Saturdays and see about eliminating it on the other days". And this really made a huge difference for me. I stopped feeling bad about eating sweets on Saturdays. And interestingly, looking forward to eating sweets on that day actually helped me eat less during the week. I think an overlooked but really important part of habit tracking is figuring out what habits aren't actually all that important to you in whatever season of life you're in. And I often talk with my clients about the power of the shoulds you know, the things that we feel like we should do. So sometimes, we might decide to track a habit that is something that we feel like we should do. I recently read an article about how great green smoothies are for you, right? You know what, they are tons of leafy greens and some kind of citrus or a banana all blended up. And I thought all right, okay, I should add a green smoothie to my morning routine. Yeah, I just couldn't make it stick. It's cool, whatever. So I don't start my day with a green smoothie. I do start it with a chocolate banana peanut butter one though.

So anyway, if we repeatedly do not do the new habit, perhaps it's not the right time to introduce it into our lives. Again, this idea of failure being informative comes up. Failing to do these habits gives us a lot of info. So ask yourself, why aren't you doing them? Are they truly important to you? Okay, next up motivation. Habit trackers can be highly motivating for some people. Personally, I only find them really useful for the data that they provide. In fact, this data is what motivates me to actually remember to track them in the first place. But my teenage daughter loves doing the thing. So she can fill out the box in her pretty hand-drawn habit tracker that she has in her bullet journal. If you're like Hannah, what's a bullet journal? Just hold on a sec, and I'll explain them in a bit. Okay, next up, sometimes we need to build in a new habit because of a health reason, a change in diet like maybe we need to cut out morning coffee. Or maybe we've started taking new meds or doing exercises for physical therapy, we might want to use a habit tracker to reinforce the addition of these new things into our lives. We may even be feeling a little stressed about these new required habits. So a tracker might help us to remember to do them, which in turn will ease some of that stress.

Okay, so hopefully I've convinced you of all the great reasons to track some habits. And now we have to figure out the best way to do it. Keep in mind that everything I recommend today can be modified to, you know, fit your own needs. I always encourage my coaching clients to take the tools that I teach them, and then tweak them until they work for their situation. If you're not sure which one to use, just try the one that kind of resonates with the most with you, and then approach it like an experiment. They might not work well for you at first, and that's totally okay. Right? Just see what part of it is working for you and what part isn't, and then change it up to suit your needs. Alright, so tracking tools.

First up is that bullet journal that I mentioned earlier, the idea of bullet journaling was created by a guy called Ryder Carroll. And a bullet journal is simply a planner that you create to fit your own needs. And this customizable aspect of it is actually what I really love about them. Mine, it's very simple. It's just a plain notebook, I've got a few things in it, mostly just my weekly calendar and a meal planning page. My daughter, on the other hand, has a bullet journal and it's truly a work of art. She has her weekly calendar and an exercise tracker, she's got book lists and gratitude practice and a habit tracker. So you can add easily add a habit tracker to your bullet journal just like she did. If I went more into detail with how to use a bullet journal and how to track habits within one, I'd keep you here all day. And that's not what any of us wants. So be sure to check out the show notes for more bullet journal resources. And if you don't use a bullet journal already, I highly recommend checking them out. I've had a few clients that have had a lot of success using them.

Okay, next on my list is spreadsheets. My sister Julia is the queen of tracking things with a spreadsheet. I envy the data that she's collected over the years. Well, I say that I envy it. But I don't actually envy it so much that I'm actually going to start using spreadsheets. But if spreadsheets are your thing, you can build one that tracks your habits or anything you want to collect data on.

All right, Fitbits and other smartwatches. Fitbits can track your steps and other habits like exercise or how much water you drink. And there are apps that you can add to your Apple or your Android watch. You can check out the show notes for some suggestions for apps. I personally don't wear a watch. But I know that for the people that do they really love them.

There are a ton of apps out there for both iPhones and Android phones that can make habit tracking easier. Something that I really like about the apps is that they have built in Notifications, and you can modify them as needed. And I personally found the notification super helpful to get me to do the actual habit.

And if you are a parent, you might be familiar with the strategy of sticker charts. You know, grownups can use them too. I actually use this sticker chart when I'm training for a half marathon. I got this idea from my other sister, Maria. So I print out the training plan I'm going to use and then I put a sticker in each box after I complete that day's training challenge. And usually just covering the chart with stickers is rewarding enough for me. But sometimes I'll build like a small prize or reward into it for a little extra motivation. Talking about sticker charts reminds me of when my kids were little. And I always felt like I needed a sticker chart to help me remember to use my kids sticker charts. Anybody relate to that feeling?

So this actually brings up a good point. It's all well and good to have this idea of tracking habits, right? So let's track them. But how can you actually remember to track them, especially when you're first starting out. So to help yourself, you basically just have to really support yourself, you have to build a really strong scaffold. To do this, you could set reminders on your phone, you could use the notification feature in the habit tracking app, you could put sticky notes around that remind you to track the thing. For example, if you're tracking how much water you drink, you could put a note right on your water bottle. Or if you're tracking exercise, you could put a sign up in the area of your home where you exercise. Or you could stick it in, you know with your stuff that you put in your gym bag. There's a million ways to do it. So get creative and see what works for you. It might take a bit for the habit of tracking habits to stick. But with good support, hopefully you'll find success.

And like I've said before, and I'll say again, and again change takes time. And learning how to look for small wins can really help keep you motivated through this challenge of making change. And habit tracking is a great way to look for these wins. In fact, if you're just starting out with habit tracking, I encourage you to pick only one or two habits at first. Diving in and optimistically picking a whole bunch might be exciting and promising and a little bit crazy. But it's likely that it'll end up feeling like there are just too many habits to track, and you're a lot less likely to be successful with those new habits. So just pick a couple that you think are realistic, you know, realistic to add to your life right now and give it a shot. And as we know, habits can take a very long time to form or break. I think I read a study that said it takes on average 66 days. So like I said earlier, having a record of your progress over time, can help support that habit as you're building or breaking it. If you're working with a coach, you can ask them to support you as you track your progress. Maybe have them checking with you at the beginning of each session or during the week. Are you using the habit tracker that you chose? And if not, why? Maybe have a conversation with your coach to figure that out. And no worries if you don't have a coach, try and listing a friend or another trusted person, share your new habit tracking, experiment with them and ask them to hold you accountable. Maybe you guys could even track something together. My family loves creating Fitbit contests with the other people in my extended family who were Fitbits as well. You could create family sticker charts for family goals. Or you could hold yourself accountable by creating text chat groups of like minded people who are also trying to reach goals.

So that's it for today. Wow. Who knew there was so much to say about habit tracking, I'd actually taken a break from tracking my own habits. But in writing this episode, I found a renewed zest for tracking habits. So I'm back on the wagon. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in this episode.

Before I go, I wanted to share some listener feedback about my episode on failure. In that episode, I mentioned the commitments or goals that executive function coaching clients make after each session. And Neal, one of our coaches suggested that instead of saying they were commitments or goals we coaches give to our clients. Perhaps I could have said they were commitments and goals made with our clients. I love that this small change in prepositions makes such a huge difference in meaning. Thank you, Neil, for making this suggestion. And I completely agree. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode on habit tracking. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond bookstart.com/podcast. And we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening