ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What does it actually take to run a purpose-driven business? Not talk about it — actually do it? Abdullah Ramay, CEO of Pablo & Rusty's Coffee Roasters, has a clear answer: start with great coffee. Purpose is an AND statement, not an OR statement. And if the product isn't excellent first, purpose can't carry it.

WHAT WE COVER

ABOUT ABDULLAH RAMAY

Abdullah Ramay is the CEO of Pablo & Rusty's Coffee Roasters, a B Corp certified, Carbon Neutral Organisation and 1% for the Planet member based in Sydney. He is a recognised industry leader and advocate for the specialty coffee industry, particularly around sustainable cafe economics and the coffee value gap. Beyond his executive role, Abdullah serves as a non-executive director of the Westmead Hospital Foundation and as a board member of ARCA (Australian Restaurant and Cafe Association). He advises early-stage startups and mentors emerging leaders across business, technology, and purpose-driven leadership.

RESOURCES & LINKS MENTIONED

WORK WITH CAROLYN

Carolyn Butler-Madden works with leaders and organisations on how purpose becomes a powerful driver of trust, performance, and resilience. She speaks at leadership conferences and company events about how purpose shows up where it matters most — in leadership, culture, and strategy — helping organisations grow with clarity and confidence in a changing world.

Keynote speaking: Carolyn Butler-Madden

Consulting: The Cause Effect

What if the biggest obstacle to creating change in your organisation isn't a lack of resources, effort, or intention — but the questions you're asking? That's the central challenge Hildy Gottlieb has spent 30 years answering, and it cuts right to the heart of what purpose-driven leadership actually requires.

Hildy Gottlieb is a futurist, social scientist, and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a question-based framework for systems change published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review and used by nonprofit leaders, social entrepreneurs, and purpose-driven businesses around the world. Over three decades working with community organisations, Hildy and her partner Dimitri Petropolis made a confronting discovery: the tools most organisations rely on to pursue change — strategic planning, resource development, board governance — were never designed to create the world we want. They were designed to maintain the world we have.

In this conversation, Hildy unpacks the deceptively simple maths behind why most change efforts stall, walks us through the seven questions of Catalytic Thinking, and makes a compelling case for why the most important thing a purpose-driven leader can do right now — in business, nonprofit, or social enterprise — is dream bigger, not smaller.

Listeners can expect actionable ideas for leaders in nonprofit, social enterprise and business who want to move from reactive fixes to ambitious, inclusive change — starting with one simple shift: change the questions, change the world.

This episode is for you if you're a CEO, nonprofit leader, social entrepreneur, sustainability or ESG leader, or anyone responsible for organisational strategy and culture who:

Hildy Gottlieb is the co-founder of Creating the Future and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a framework for social change rooted in neuroscience, mathematics, and economics. Her work has been published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, and her SSIR article on Movements vs. Organizations was selected to open their ebook Essentials of Social Innovation: Transforming Leadership — and directly inspired the design of the Community Centric Fundraising movement.

Hildy is a TEDx speaker and the author of multiple books used as texts in undergraduate and graduate programs around the world. With her partner Dimitri Petropolis, she co-founded the world's first Diaper Bank, sparking a movement across North America and earning a Points of Light Citation from President Bill Clinton. She helped develop the Masters degree program in Community Leadership at Duquesne University (pron. Dew-cáyne), where she and Dimitri taught as professors, and has lectured at institutions including UC Berkeley and the University of Waikato in New Zealand. Her forthcoming book, How to Create the Future, distils 30 years of research and demonstration projects on what actually creates lasting change.

Less bad is not the same as good — and the maths proves it

Hildy uses a simple number line — minus one to plus one, with zero in the middle — to expose a structural flaw in how most organisations pursue change. When success is defined as eliminating a problem, we're aiming at zero: a world without poverty, without homelessness, without illness. But zero isn't good. It's stasis. The question that unlocks genuine systems change isn't 'how do we end this bad thing?' It's 'what does a healthy, equitable, joyful community actually look like — and what will it take to create that?' Purpose-driven leaders who make this shift stop playing defence and start building something worth aiming at.

The questions leaders ask determine the results organisations get

Every thought is the answer to a question — including the questions we don't know we're asking. Conventional strategic planning asks 'what can we accomplish in the next two years?' or 'what can we get funded?' Those questions produce reactive, incremental plans. Catalytic Thinking asks 'what would our community look like if we were 100% successful?' — and that question produces a fundamentally different strategy. For purpose-driven leaders, the implication is significant: the questions you bring into your planning process are already shaping what's possible before anyone picks up a pen.

Radical Inclusion: start by asking who isn't in the room

The first question of Catalytic Thinking is: who will be affected by whatever we're considering, and what would it take for them to be part of the decision — or even to lead the direction we take? A 30-person strategic planning group making decisions that affect a million people isn't just inefficient — it's structurally designed to miss the most important knowledge available. Radical Inclusion is the opposite of target marketing: instead of narrowing your focus to who you think matters, you expand it to everyone who will be touched by your work. That shift, Hildy argues, is where love enters leadership.

Money is not a resource — and reframing this unlocks abundance

Money is a means of exchange for the things organisations actually need: information, expertise, relationships, space, vehicles, cooking facilities. When leaders jump straight to 'we need more funding,' they skip past the question of what they truly need — and miss the abundance that already exists in their community. Hildy calls this Collective Enoughness: together, we already have everything we need. It's only when organisations go it alone, in a scarcity mindset, that they experience lack. For nonprofit leaders and social entrepreneurs especially, this reframe changes how you approach partnerships, resource-sharing, and community engagement.

Hope is a leadership practice, not a feeling

In a world that feels like it's moving backwards, Hildy's challenge to purpose-driven leaders is direct: resist and react, yes — but simultaneously plan for the world you want. If all we do is play defence, we'll be playing defence forever. The current moment is part of a longer pendulum swing, and the organisations that will matter in 10 years are the ones building toward what's possible right now — not just protecting against what's wrong. Hope isn't wishful thinking. It's a practice rooted in concrete planning, causality-driven strategy, and the brain science that says creativity requires quieting the reactive, fear-driven part of the brain.

Carolyn Butler-Madden works with leaders and organisations on how purpose becomes a powerful driver of trust, performance, and resilience. She speaks at leadership conferences and company events about how purpose shows up where it matters most — in leadership, culture, and strategy — helping organisations grow with clarity and confidence in a changing world.

Episode 100 is a milestone celebration — and a role reversal. This time, Carolyn Butler-Madden is in the guest seat, interviewed by purpose champion and trusted colleague Peter ter Weeme. Together they reflect on 100 episodes of For Love & Money: the insights that have surprised, some of the stories that guests have shared, and the ideas that have grown more powerful with every conversation.

What began as a 12-episode companion to Carolyn’s book became something far bigger — a growing archive of proof that purpose-led business is not a trade-off but a compounding advantage. This episode draws threads across all 100 conversations: love as the unexpected connective tissue, purpose as the engine of genuine innovation, and identity as the foundation everything else is built on.

Peter ter Weeme is one of Canada’s most respected purpose champions — a leader whose commitment to purpose in challenging industries has earned him recognition that goes well beyond titles. The Canadian Purpose Economy Project named its Purpose Champions Award in his honour: the Peter ter Weeme Purpose Champions Award. He and Carolyn collaborate through Purpose Ignition, and his decision to turn the tables and interview Carolyn for this milestone episode is a tribute to the relationship they’ve built through shared belief in what business can be.

Book Carolyn as a keynote speaker: carolynbutlermadden.com

Purpose consulting and advisory: thecauseeffect.com.au

Connect with Carolyn on Linkedin

Get in touch: [email protected]

EPISODE OVERVIEW

What does it look like when purpose isn't a department, a report, or a communications device — but the operating system of an entire business?

Sara King is General Manager of Purpose at Intrepid Travel, one of the world's most recognised purpose-led businesses. She's responsible for delivering Intrepid's environmental, social and governance commitments across a remarkable scope: climate action, gender equality, modern slavery, reconciliation, animal welfare and the Intrepid Foundation.

This is Carolyn's fourth Intrepid episode — and there's something poetic about it landing at Episode 99. The very first guest on this podcast, back at Episode 2, was Geoff Manchester, co-founder of Intrepid. Some organisations just keep giving you things worth talking about.

In this conversation, Sara and Carolyn explore what it truly means to embed purpose into business strategy — not as an add-on, but as the guide for every significant decision the business makes. Including some very difficult ones.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

ABOUT SARA KING

Sara King is Intrepid's General Manager of Purpose, responsible for delivering the company's environmental, social and governance commitments, including as a signatory to the UN Global Compact and a certified B Corp. Her remit includes Reconciliation, Modern Slavery, climate change, gender equality, animal welfare and the Intrepid Foundation.

Prior to joining Intrepid, Sara held a number of roles at the International Finance Corporation, a member of the World Bank Group, including a posting to Vanuatu where she delivered a national investment incentive scheme for tourism. Sara holds a Master's in International Relations and Affairs from Macquarie University and a Graduate Certificate of Management from the UNSW Business School.

ABOUT INTREPID TRAVEL

Intrepid Travel has been a world leader in responsible travel for more than 35 years. The company's mission is to create positive change through the joy of travel, which comes to life on more than 900 trips designed to truly experience local culture. With its own network of country offices in 33 countries, Intrepid has unique local expertise and perspectives. B Corp certified since 2018, their not-for-profit, The Intrepid Foundation, has disbursed more than $20 million to more than 160 partners.

RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED

WORK WITH CAROLYN

Looking for a keynote speaker who will challenge your thinking on purpose-led leadership? Visit carolynbutlermadden.com

Ready to embed purpose into the heart of your business strategy? Visit thecauseeffect.com.au

EPISODE OVERVIEW

What does it really take to do your best work as a leader? Cherie Mylordis has spent her career at the leading edge of that question — from the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games to boardrooms across the globe. Her research with 200 leaders revealed a confronting truth: only one in three felt they were doing their best work. And when she dug deeper, even those who said yes were constrained in almost exactly the same ways as everyone else.

In this conversation, Cherie shares the experiences that shaped her thinking — growing up as the first in her family to go to university, finding herself at the forefront of change management before anyone knew what to call it, and what the Olympics taught her about what people are truly capable of when purpose ignites them.

She introduces her Work in 3D framework — Dare, Ditch, Dial — and explains why the middle D is the one most organisations keep missing. And she makes a compelling case for why, in an age of AI and uncertainty, the most urgent work leaders can do is create the conditions for their people to thrive.

WHAT WE COVER

ABOUT CHERIE MYLORDIS

Cherie Mylordis is a leadership, innovation and future of work expert passionate about helping people do their best work and make a meaningful difference.

With decades of experience across diverse sectors, including leadership roles for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, Cherie has seen what’s possible when people are united by purpose and given the right conditions to thrive.

As the founder of nextgenify and nextgenify Academy, she works with leaders at all levels to challenge outdated ways of working and create environments where purpose, leadership and change come together for a better future.

Recognised as a LinkedIn Top Voice, Cherie’s work is featured in podcasts and publications including CEO Magazine, Dynamic Business and HR Leader, where she shares practical insights and fresh perspectives to help leaders navigate change and shape the future of work.

CONNECT WITH CHERIE MYLORDIS

RESOURCES MENTIONED

WORK WITH CAROLYN

Seventy percent. That's the share of Australia's emissions associated with the infrastructure we build and operate — roads, railways, airports, tunnels. And the profession best placed to move that number? Civil engineering. Which also happens to be one of the most conservative industries on the planet.

Robin Power is the Chief Executive of Insitutek and the founding Chair of Ground Level Alliance — a volunteer-powered non-profit with a single ambition: to make sustainability a daily practice for the people who design and build our world.

He's not a civil engineer by training. He's a manufacturing engineer — which means he sees the industry through a people-and-process lens that most in the sector don't have. And it was that outsider's perspective, combined with a painful experience of losing everything in a failed property venture, that set him on the path to purpose.

In this conversation, Robin and Carolyn explore what it really means to use business as a force for good — and what it costs to choose to be a change agent in an industry that doesn't always want to change.

Chief Executive, Insitutek, and Chair, Ground Level Alliance

Robin Power has spent his career pushing boundaries – and encouraging others to do the same. A strategist, educator, and advocate, he brings fresh thinking to civil construction challenges, combining practical experience, theoretical knowledge, and business acumen blended with his manufacturing engineer background.

For over 15 years, Robin has partnered with consultants, asset owners, government agencies, contractors, and researchers across Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific to implement modern in situ testing and ground improvement methods that boost construction productivity, reduce costs, improve quality, minimise risk, and lower environmental impact.

Robin also champions sustainability as founding chair of Ground Level Alliance.

Click the 'Get Involved' tab to explore how to contribute — from sharing case studies to joining the community.

Robin Power on LinkedIn

For Love & Money is the podcast for leaders who believe that profit and purpose belong together. Each episode, host Carolyn Butler-Madden explores the intersection of business performance, human-centred leadership, and meaningful change — through stories of the people who are doing it.

Hosted by Carolyn Butler-Madden, founder of The Cause Effect.

Subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

If this conversation sparked something for you, Carolyn works with leaders and organisations who want to put purpose at the centre of their business.

Keynote speaking — carolynbutlermadden.com

Purpose-led consulting — thecauseeffect.com.au

Episode Overview

What does a performing arts institution have to teach the business world? As it turns out — everything.

In this episode, Carolyn speaks with Terri Martin, Head of Corporate at NIDA — the National Institute of Dramatic Art — about why communication is the most underinvested leadership skill in organisations today, and what happens when leaders finally get it right.

Terri's journey to this work is anything but conventional. From a mortifying early experience presenting to a major client, to building and leading businesses across marketing, not-for-profit and education, she arrived at NIDA with a uniquely personal understanding of why so many leaders struggle to communicate with clarity and confidence — and what it costs them when they do.

Together, Carolyn and Terri explore why communication is far more than the words we choose, how performers' techniques can transform business leaders, and why the ability to inspire, influence and connect is absolutely vital for anyone who wants to lead a movement of change.

In This Episode

Terri and Carolyn cover a lot of ground, including the three components of communication — words, voice and body — and why most leaders only focus on one. They discuss what actors understand about presence that many leaders don't, why the pause is one of the most powerful tools a communicator has, and how communication misaligned with purpose creates distrust rather than followership. Terri also draws a sharp distinction between performing leadership and truly embodying it, and shares her vision for a future where communication skills are taught in schools.

About Terri Martin

Terri Martin is a commercial business leader passionate about helping individuals, teams and organisations communicate with clarity, confidence and impact. Terri leads NIDA Corporate Training, the National Institute of Dramatic Art's executive education business. The division works with leading organisations across Australia to develop communication, presentation and leadership capability using NIDA's world-renowned performer-training techniques. Each year, thousands of professionals participate in programs designed to strengthen presence, influence and authentic leadership in the workplace.

Before joining NIDA, Terri built and led consultancy businesses, marketing agencies and not-for-profit organisations, and began her career working in marketing and media including at Nickelodeon in London. This mix of commercial and creative experience underpins her strong belief in the power of communication to transform careers, teams and organisations.

Terri is an alumna of The Marketing Academy Leadership Program, a mentor for Future Women and previously served as Vice Chair and Non-Executive Director of ADHD Australia.

Connect with Terri:

On Linkedin

Nida corporate website

In this International Women’s Day 2026 special, Carolyn Butler-Madden speaks with negotiation expert Sam Trattles about women in leadership, pay equity, professional development budgets, and the power of self-advocacy. Together they explore how conviction, craft and courage help leaders confidently ask for what they want — without damaging relationships — and why valuing yourself is a leadership responsibility, not an indulgence.

What if balancing the scales doesn’t begin with policy — but with permission?

In this International Women’s Day special, I’m joined by Sam Trattles — strategic negotiator, Founder and CEO of Other Side, and author of I Love Negotiating and Negotiate Your Worth.

With experience across more than $575 million in negotiations, Sam has built a uniquely Australian methodology called The Power To Ask — helping leaders bridge the gap between knowing and asking.

But this conversation isn’t about becoming aggressive or combative.

It’s about the long shadow of the “good girl” conditioning.

Together, we explore:

Sam unpacks her 3Cs framework:

Conviction — Do I truly believe what I’m asking for is fair and reasonable?

As Sam reminds us:

“We know what we want to ask. We just don’t know how to do it so that we don’t blow up the relationship.”

And perhaps most powerfully:

“What’s the cost of not asking? That’s got to be greater than asking.”

This episode is an invitation — not just to ask for more — but to model what self-advocacy looks like in leadership.

Because if we want to balance the scales, perhaps it begins with valuing ourselves — not as an act of ego, but as an act of leadership.

Sam Trattles CEO-Founder | Strategic Negotiator | Author | Speaker

Fear stops people from asking for what they want. Sam Trattles is changing that. She helps leaders overcome the hurdle between knowing and asking.

With experience from over $575M in negotiations, Sam created a uniquely Australian methodology, The Power to Ask, taking insights from high-stakes negotiations into practical frameworks for everyday leadership challenges.

Author of bestselling books, I Love Negotiating and Negotiate Your Worth, Sam helps leaders find their voice in the moments that matter. It’s not about becoming an aggressive ‘gun-slinger instead, Sam teaches people how to negotiate their way, getting results whilst strengthening relationships.

As Founder and CEO of Other Side, Sam transforms powerless moments into acts of conviction, inviting you to confidently embrace the power to ask.

Learn more at: thepowertoask.com

Sam on Linkedin

The Power To Ask Website

Take the Assessment

If this conversation resonated with you, I’d be so grateful if you left a rating — and, if you have a moment, a short review on your favourite podcast platform.

It genuinely makes a difference. Ratings and reviews help more purpose-driven leaders discover these conversations — and grow a community of people who believe business can be a force for good.

And if you haven’t already, make sure you’re following or subscribing to the podcast so you don’t miss future episodes. There’s so much more to explore at the intersection of love and money.

What if the leadership talent businesses need most is hiding in plain sight?

EPISODE OVERVIEW

What happens when someone reaches the centre of corporate power — and decides the traditional leadership path no longer makes sense?

Athena is a strategist, advisor and entrepreneur whose career spans senior leadership roles across ASX-listed companies, Fortune 500 organisations and high-growth businesses. Just as she was being positioned for a CEO role, Athena paused to question the model itself — researching the personal, organisational and societal cost of how leadership is typically structured.

What she uncovered led her to create The Flexible CEO: a model designed to connect highly experienced, underutilised executives with mid-sized organisations that need senior capability but can’t always access it through traditional pathways.

At the heart of this work is a bridge — between boards of mid-sized organisations facing complex growth and transformation challenges, and what Athena calls “hidden superstars”: seasoned leaders whose talent is too often sidelined by outdated assumptions about age, career paths and leadership fit.

Athena shares the personal purpose driving this work — improving financial wellbeing and mental health — shaped by her own lived experience and what she witnessed growing up. We also explore the broader social impact of this model, including its potential to address ageism, unlock economic value and create healthier, more sustainable leadership outcomes.

In this conversation, Athena reflects on recent milestones — including speaking at Harvard and the United Nations, and the upcoming release of her book The Flexible CEO — and offers practical insights for leaders, boards and organisations curious about how this model could work for them.

This is a thoughtful, future-focused conversation about leadership — and what becomes possible when we design work around life, not sacrifice.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

ABOUT ATHENA MANLEY

Athena Manley is a seasoned executive and owner of 3 companies. Across her 20+ year banking & insurance career, Athena has successfully led corporate strategy, distribution, IT, digital, people and culture, and business development in Fortune 500, ASX Top 10 and not-for-profit organisations. 

Athena completed her MBA at UQ, being awarded the Excellence in Leadership Award, she is also a Harvard Alumnus and member of the AICD. Through her firm The Flexible CEO, Athena empowers businesses to navigate CEO transitions and CEO's and NEDs to transition to flexible portfolio careers. Her mission is to lead and inspire exceptional businesses that improve financial empowerment and mental health in society.

LINKS & RESOURCES

Athena on Linkedin

The Flexible CEO Website

Join the next ONLINE MASTERCLASS: Grow and succeed in a portfolio career- for CEOs, NEDs and Executives . Use code VIPCEO for free registration. 

Episode Overview

What does it look like when a global brand doesn’t just talk about values — but organises around them?

In this episode of For Love & Money, I’m joined by Hilary McAllister, Activism Manager at Ben & Jerry’s Australia.

Hilary’s path into activism has been anything but linear. Beginning her career in events, she followed a growing concern for climate and environmental justice into grassroots campaigning, co-founding the not-for-profit For Wild Places before stepping into one of the most unusual roles in Australian business — leading activism from inside a global brand.

In our conversation, Hilary shares what drew her into purpose-led work, why serendipity and shared values matter more than rigid career plans, and how Ben & Jerry’s approaches climate justice as an always-on commitment rather than a one-off campaign.

We explore how activism operates inside the business, what it takes to earn the right to speak on social issues, and why progress is rarely linear — especially when you’re working for long-term systemic change.

Hilary also takes us behind the scenes of a major Australian climate campaign, unpacks Ben & Jerry’s mission-lock structure, and reflects on the balance between urgency, hope and personal sustainability when working at the frontlines of climate action.

At its heart, this episode is about purpose in action — and what becomes possible when business chooses courage over convenience.

In this episode, we explore

About Hilary McAllister

Hilary is based in Gadigal, Sydney, and is the Activism Manager at Ben & Jerry’s Australia. In her role, Hilary leads the strategic development and execution of climate justice campaigns, supporting grassroots campaigners across the country. A dedicated environmentalist, Hilary is also the CEO and co-founder of For Wild Places, a not-for-profit dedicated to protecting wild places under threat. Hilary’s path to activism has been anything but ordinary - shaped by curiosity, conviction, and a deep desire to contribute to lasting, planet-saving change.

Links & Resources

Hilary McAllister on Linkedin

Ben & Jerry's Australia website

For Wild Places website

Hilary's personal website

Ben & Jerry's Double Dip book - how to run a values-led business and make money too

Connect with Carolyn/Learn more about her work

Speaking website

Consulting, Leadership Development & Coaching

Linkedin