What happens when ideology takes over church leadership? In this episode, Martha Tatarnic welcomes Mike Cosper, creator of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill and director of podcasts at Christianity Today. Mike explores the dynamics of ideology within church leadership, particularly how ideological thinking can lead to disastrous decision-making. Together, they discuss the influence of secularism and the anxiety surrounding church decline, as well as the allure of charismatic leaders like Mark Driscoll. In a thought-provoking dialogue, they consider the role of populism, the importance of resisting the cult of personality in church leadership, and the practices of worship and storytelling as acts of resistance. Mike also reflects on the reception of his work within the evangelical world and the importance of truth-telling in journalism. He emphasizes the mysterious ways God shows up in broken places, even amidst the church's failings.

Mike Cosper has been creating music, radio shows, and podcasts for more than 20 years. He produced and hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast and is director of podcasts at Christianity Today. He now cohosts a weekly podcast called The Bulletin. Cosper also leads cohorts for church leaders and is the author of four books, including Recapturing the Wonder. He and his family live in Louisville, Kentucky.

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

What happens when a pastor trades the pulpit for a tech startup? In this episode, Martha welcomes back Alexander Lang, a former PCUSA pastor turned tech entrepreneur, to share his journey from church ministry to launching a business focused on fostering meaningful relationships. Alexander dives into his latest creative projects, including the Restorative Faith Podcast and his upcoming YouTube series, Kokoro, which draws inspiration from Mr. Rogers to address universal themes like trust, anxiety, and doubt, offering adults a space to feel seen, heard, and valued. Through the lens of Kokoro, he unpacks how theology and media intersect, blending a theology of love and acceptance with practical strategies for personal growth. Martha and Alexander also discuss the potential of platforms like YouTube and TikTok to transcend traditional church boundaries, highlighting how social media can transform modern faith communication and reach new audiences in powerful ways.

Alexander Lang is a former PCUSA pastor who worked in church ministry for 20 years. He has since left the church to pursue a technology business that is designed to help people form meaningful relationships. Alex’s interests include independent film, electronic music and deep conversation with people who question, doubt and want to dig into the most complex issues we face as humans. When he’s not working on books, podcasts or the Restorative Faith Movement, Alex enjoys spending time with his wife and two sons.

Previous Episodes with Alex Lang:

21st Century Spirituality: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/spirituality-for-the-21st-century-rationalist-a-conversation-with-alexander-lang/

The Most Viral Article on Clergy Burnout: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/alex-lang/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

In this episode, co-hosts Martha Tatarnic and Loren Richmond Jr. reflect on the past season and share personal insights from their ministry journeys. Martha opens up about the challenges of transitioning back to ministry after a focused writing sabbath, touching on key themes like clergy mental health, food insecurity, and economic pressures that have shaped the season’s conversations. Loren and Martha celebrate a major milestone—200 episodes—reflecting on the podcast’s beginnings as a COVID project and its growth into a valued resource for church leaders. They highlight standout episodes, discussing topics such as the evolving landscape of church leadership, the importance of diversity and inclusion, and the benefits of team ministry in building strong faith communities. Throughout the episode, Loren and Martha stress the podcast’s mission to provide companionship and support for those navigating the complexities of ministry.

Episodes Referenced:

Pastoral Health Roundtable: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/pastoral/

Elizabeth Schrader Polczer: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/elizabeth-schrader-polczer-on-rethinking-mary-magdalene-part-1/

Yolanda Solomon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/solomon/

Chuck DeGroat: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/the-primal-wound/

Casey Tygrett: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/casey-tygrett-on-why-remembering-matters/

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/grace-ji-sun-kim-on-making-church-less-white/

Allison Milbank: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/alison-milbank-on-why-small-and-local-might-be-the-churchs-way-forward/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Walter R. Strickland II (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is associate professor of systematic and contextual theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He has coauthored or contributed to several books, including For God So Loved the World: A Blueprint for Kingdom Diversity. He is a host of the White Horse Inn podcast and founder of Cultural Engagement and Aptree Learning.

Episodes Referenced:

Pastoral Health Roundtable: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/pastoral/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

In this conversation, Reverend Jocelyn Jones shares her journey of faith, trauma, and healing, emphasizing the importance of community and therapy in overcoming personal challenges. She discusses her experiences in ministry, the barriers women face, and the significance of understanding one's value beyond societal definitions of success and failure. The conversation highlights the need for spiritual practices and wise counsel to stay centered in God's guidance while passionately sharing one's ministry. In this conversation, Rev. Jocelyn Jones discusses the importance of effectively communicating and 'selling' one's ministry, the challenges of valuing one's time and services, and the significance of setting boundaries by learning to say no. She also shares insights on guiding others in their ministry journeys, reflections on leadership, and her hopes for a future of Christianity that emphasizes healing and love over harm.

Rev. Jocelyn is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background as a journalist, executive director of a nonprofit, and community leader allows her to connect with people from all walks of life.  She received her bachelor's degree from the University of Iowa in journalism.  After receiving her B.A., she earned her master's degree in social work and her master's degree in theological studies.  Jocelyn published her first book in 2019, Breaking the Power of the Mask. Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the President of Faith on the Journey, a Christian Counseling company specializing in grief and trauma.  She is a Master Facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute and the founder of the Women in the Ministry which helps women to start, grow, and sustain transformative ministries that change the world. 

Website: jocelynjjones.com

Social: IG: @jocelynjjones

            FB: @connectwithJocelyn

            Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@MeetRevJocelyn

Free Ministry Launch Starter Kit at sisterstartyourministry.com

Episodes Referenced:

Casey Tygrett: https:/https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/casey/

Kinsie Tate: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/restore-clergy/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Episodes Referenced:

Casey Tygrett: https:/https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/casey/

Kinsie Tate: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/restore-clergy/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

In this milestone 200th episode of the Future Christian Podcast, hosts Loren Richmond Jr. and Martha Tatarnic celebrate with a roundtable discussion on clergy wellness, joined by Brian Davis, and Kinsie Tate. Together, they explore the challenges and opportunities surrounding pastoral health, sharing insights and personal experiences from their diverse backgrounds. The conversation delves into the importance of community, the performative nature of clergy life, and the challenges of burnout and mental health. The panelists share personal experiences and insights on navigating success and failure in ministry, the impact of competition among clergy, and the systemic issues facing the church today. They also discuss practical steps and resources for clergy to support their mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being, emphasizing the need for vulnerability and connection in ministry.

Rev. Kinsie Tate is the Founder and Executive Director of Restore Clergy, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to support clergy with programs that improve wellness to cultivate faithful and sustainable ministry. She is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor and has a private practice where she has facilitated growth and transformation for clients for over a decade. She completed her Master of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary and was ordained in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in 2007. She served as an associate minister for 3 years prior to returning to complete her Master of Education in Applied Behavioral Studies at Oklahoma City University in 2010. She became a Licensed Professional Counselor in Oklahoma in 2012 and a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor in California in 2021. She was certified as a Truce Coach in 2022. She lives in California with her spouse, who is United Methodist Clergy serving in a local congregation, and their 3 school age children. 

FB: https://www.facebook.com/restoreclergy/

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/restoreclergy/

website: www.restoreclergy.com

Brian Davis has been leading worship in the Denver-metro area for the last 25 years and has built relationships with dozens of churches all over the city. Authenticity and empathy have been hallmarks of Brian’s leadership, and his intention is to use these attributes to coach other worship leaders and inspire greater creativity and deeper spiritual practice in the local church. Brian has three daughters, and he and his wife, Jess, live in Lakewood, CO. He also serves part-time as the Worship Arts Director at New Denver Church.

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/greenroomleaders/

website: https://www.greenroomleaders.com/

Episodes Referenced:

Martha Tatarnic: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/why-gather-with-martha-tatarnic/https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-himxq-13e0aa9

Kinsie Tate: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/restore-clergy/

Brian Davis: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/the-pressure-to-perform-as-a-pastor-with-paul-romig-leavitt-and-brian-davis/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

What if the core problem in most humans these days isn't that we think too highly of ourselves, but rather that we live with an underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation, and disillusionment? In this episode, Chuck DeGroat joins the pod to talk about his book Healing What's Within and the concept of Internal Family Systems theory. Sharing from his  background as a therapist and pastor, DeGroat explains the importance of befriending our different parts and becoming aware of how they show up in different situations. DeGroat emphasizes the significance of connecting with our true selves and living from that core. Exploring the classic "fall" narrative in Genesis 3, DeGroat proposes the theological concept of a primal wound and the importance of understanding the underlying story and biography behind harmful behavior. He emphasizes the need for pastors and church leaders to have support groups and close friendships to navigate the challenges they face. 

Chuck DeGroat is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, author, retreat leader speaker, and faculty member with the Soul Care Institute. As a therapist, he specializes in navigating issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral (and leadership) health, and doubt and dark nights on the faith journey. He trains clergy in handling issues of abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and planter assessments, and facilitates church consultations and investigations of abuse. Before transitioning to training and forming pastors, Chuck served as a pastor in Orlando and San Francisco. He and his wife, Sara, have been married for 30 years and have two adult daughters.

Book Buy Link

Chuck’s Website

Chuck’s IG

Chuck’s X

Episodes Referenced:

Chuck DeGroat: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/chuck-degroat-on-when-narcissism-comes-to-church/

Yolanda Solomon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/solomon/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

What if common worship practices are elevating our anxiety rather than centering us in the peace of God? In this conversation, J. Michael Jordan joins the show to talk about the intersection of faith and mental health, particularly in relation to anxiety. He explores the historical context of the anxiety-relief repentance model in revivalist movements and its impact on worship practices. He emphasizes the need for a more holistic and sustainable approach to faith that goes beyond the cycle of anxiety, repentance, and relief. Jordan emphasizes the importance of a guiding story outside of our own experiences and the value of ritual in worship. He also discusses practical aspects of worship, such as lighting and technology, and how they can either draw us deeper into the worship experience or distract us from it.

Rev. Dr. Michael Jordan (PhD, Drew University) is professor of theology at Houghton University. From 2002-2009, he was the pastor of Exton Community Baptist Church in Exton, PA. From 2013-2024, he served as Dean of the Chapel at Houghton before moving over to teach full-time this fall.  Over the summer, he is the staff chaplain at Camp-of-the-Woods, a Christian camp in the Adirondack Mountains. Mike’s wife Jill is a mathematician who also teaches at Houghton; they live just off campus and together are raising their five children: Grace, Jack, Lucy, Gabriel, and Anne. In his spare time, Mike enjoys singing, crossword puzzles and distance running and is a rabid fan of Philadelphia professional and college sports.

Facebook @RevDrMichaelJordan

[email protected]

theothermichaeljordan.substack.com

Episodes Referenced:

Andrew Root: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-himxq-13e0aa9

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Despite the headlines, young adults are still interested in church, says Jeff Keuss. In this episode, he discusses the surprising findings that young adults view churches as vital social change agents and are not opposed to their existence. Instead, they seek meaningful, inclusive, and intellectually engaging communities that address real-world issues and offer genuine care and mentorship. He also explores the concept of "belong, believe, behave" in church life, challenging traditional membership models and advocating for a more inclusive approach that values diverse voices and experiences. He emphasizes the importance of churches as resource centers that prepare individuals for their roles in the world, rather than merely places of worship. The conversation also explores the shifting dynamics of church leadership, the role of gender diversity in fostering healthy communities, and the critical need for mentorship across generations. Dr. Keuss's research offers a hopeful vision for the future of Christianity, one that embraces diversity, open dialogue, and the transformative power of faith.

Jeff Keuss, PhD brings over 30 years of leadership and managerial experience in higher education, health care and social services administration both in the US and UK.   In his various roles as a Professor, Director of the University Scholars Honors Program as well as Associate Dean of Graduate Studies for Seattle Pacific Seminary within SPU, Jeff continues to be actively engaged in research, fundraising, curriculum coordination, working with external publics such as churches and faith communities, major donor acquisition and retention, administrative recruitment, and annual fund development.  His commitment to faith development is seen in his $2.75 million in grant acquisitions as part of a $55 million initiative from the Lilly Endowment for the development of Pivot NW, a non-profit research and support institute seeking to research innovation models for the sake of engaging young adults in innovative social ventures with faith communities. His recent publication  Paul Ricoeur and the Hope of Higher Education: The Just University  (Rowman & Littlefield, 2020), speaks to his continued to work on the future of higher education as a place of justice and hope for human flourishing alongside a global network of thought leaders in educational innovation. 

Jeff is an ordained minister of the Word and Sacrament (PCUSA) and served several congregations both in the US and in the Church of Scotland as Assistant Minister of the Glasgow Cathedral.  He is a graduate of Seattle Pacific University (BA), Fuller Theological Seminary (MDiv), Harvard University (Masters in I/O Psychology), and the University of Glasgow, Scotland (PhD in Literature, Theology, and the Arts).

Episodes Referenced:

Scott Thumma: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/understanding-the-impact-of-societal-changes-on-congregational-dynamics-insights-from-dr-scott-thumma/

https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/ryan-burge-on-myths-about-religion-and-politics-in-america/

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant