We’re continuing our discussion about the Phoenicia Ship. Heartlanders think Lehi's ship was built similarly. Mike & Betty LaFontaine were instrumental in purchasing the ship and shipping it back to Iowa for re-construction. We’ll learn more about how they did that, what they did when the ship sank, and more! Mike & Betty are both Native Americans, and Betty will share her experience in the Indian Placement Program as a young girl. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/q9cjqGc_l0I

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transcript to follow

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Gospel Tangents

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Yuri & Vera Sanada are experienced sailors. Hailing from Brazil, they contacted Philip Beale to join his journey aboard a 600 BC Phoenician ship to both circumnavigate Africa and sail to America! Yuri is a documentarian, and chronicled the journey via film. Rick Bennett spoke with them about their journey through pirate infested waters of Somalia, big storms near Cape Town, South Africa, and their experience building a better rat trap while on the ocean, so that the rat quit eating their food! Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/0JhCRQllDsQ

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Brazilian/Portuguese Explorers

Interview

GT  00:39  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a real filmmaker on, unlike me. (Chuckling) Could you go ahead and tell us who you are, and where you come from?

 

Yuri  00:52  My name is Yuri Sanada. I'm from Brazil. I was aboard Phoenician [ship,] the two expeditions, documenting everything. I mean, everything.

 

GT  01:01  Yes. So, you're a sailor and a filmmaker?

 

Yuri  01:03  Yes, I'm a sailor as well. Here is my wife, Vera. And before the expedition we lived for 12 years, aboard sailboats.

 

GT  01:09  Oh, really? Oh, so you are a seasoned sailor.

 

Yuri  01:12  Yeah, well, yes.

 

GT  01:15  And how about you Vera? Can you tell us a little bit about your seamanship?

 

Vera  01:19  Okay, I'm Vera Sanada from Brazil, as well. And we are sailors. We live how he said, twelve years in a sailboat. We have a wonderful time because we travel a lot and have many friends, all the ports we stop, and we love it. And we've been in Phoenicia sailboat too.

 

GT  01:44  All right. And so, what part of Brazil?

 

Vera  01:47  Well, I'm from South Brazil, from Rio Grande do Sul and Yuri is from Parana is the middle between Sao Paulo, but now we live in Sao Paulo. After many years in the sailboat, we changed for a house. Yes, for a sustainable house.

 

GT  02:09  All right. So, you've got your land legs back, then.

 

Yuri  02:13  Yes, yes. We still sail. We still go out.

 

GT  02:15  So, you've been married for how long?

 

Vera  02:18  Almost 34 years.

 

GT  02:20  And 12 of those years you were married, living on a boat?

 

Vera  02:23  Yes.

 

GT  02:25  Does that include the Phoenicia, or is that [extra]?

 

Yuri  02:27  No, that's before Phoenicia.

 

GT  02:28  Before Phoenicia.

 

Yuri  02:29  Oh yes. We finished another two and a half or three years. But before Phoenicia, we sailed for 12 years, yeah.

 

GT  02:34  Wow. What was your biggest, longest sailboat ride or whatever, before the Phoenicia?

 

Yuri  02:43  We did a very nice project similar to Phoenicia, which was when Brazil [celebrated] 500 years of discovery. Brazil was discovered in 1500, by Pedro Álvares Cabral. So, in the year 2000, there was this big boat, ceremony of the seas. So, 39 boats sailed from Lisbon, Portugal all the way to Brazil. And we coordinated that project, made a documentary and I got to sail a replica of Caravel which is from 1500, down the Tejo River in Portugal,

Philip Beale is a former sailor in Her Majesty’s Navy. Hailing from the U.K., Philip always had the desire to re-create the voyages of ancient sailorsm but didn't know he was creating Lehi's voyage. He has sailed ancient Indonesian ships, and when he discovered the ancient Greek historian Herodotus claimed Phoenicians sailed around the African continent, he was bound to re-create the voyage. After finding ruins of an ancient Phoenician ship dating from 600 BC in France, Philip built a replica of the ship with the intent to sail around Africa. When he decided to leave in 2009, he had to dodge Somali pirates who were active off the western coast of Africa.

After he passed Cape Town, South Africa, the winds blew him almost to Florida. He had unintentionally followed what Heartlanders believe is Lehi’s journey to America. Lehi repeated the journey through the Mediterranean Sea, to see if he would indeed make it to America. He intentionally was trying to follow Columbus journey, but this time he unintentionally followed Mulek’s possible journey to America. It wasn’t until after the two journeys were over that LDS members informed Philip what he had done matched possible Book of Mormon journeys. Philip is surprisingly open to the idea that ancient Jews could have traveled to America. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/E2e1JAAA8Lc

Transcript to follow.  We'll cover these topics.

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Philip's Navy Background

Interview

GT  01:07  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a modern Christopher Columbus (chuckling) on the show. Could you tell us your name and where you're from?

 

Philip  01:21  Hi. My name is Philip Beale. I'm captain of the Phoenician ship or I was the captain of the Phoenician ship. And I'm from the United Kingdom.

 

GT  01:29  All right, right outside London?

 

Philip  01:32  Yeah, I live down on the south coast in Dorset, near Lulworth Cove and port.

 

GT  01:38  Okay. I've been there one time. We went to Wimbledon and Guernsey Island, I remember. So that's really cool. So, you have a background in the Royal Navy. Is that right? Can you tell us more about that?

 

Philip  01:55  Yeah. Well, as a school kid, I was interested in sailing and the history of the Age of Discovery and sailing ships, and there was a strong appeal of joining the Navy as a seamanship officer. So, I went through the Dartmouth, or Britannia Royal Naval College as a junior officer. And then I served on a couple of ships in, at the time, Her Majesty's Navy. But then I saw that the expeditions and voyages I wanted to do, which was in the mold of Kon-Tiki, that Thor Heyerdahl did, that I needed to leave the Navy and pursue a career that enabled me to undertake these historic voyages.

 

GT  02:50  Okay. How long were you in the—do we call it the Royal Navy?

 

Philip  02:55  Yeah, in the Royal Navy. I was only there for three years.

 

GT  02:57  Oh, okay. It wasn't...

 

Philip  02:58  I'm not a long-serving the officer of the Royal Navy.

 

GT  03:02  You weren't, like, a submarine commander or anything like that.

 

Philip  03:04  I can't claim that I was a submarine commander. I was on a couple of ships, a destroyer and a fishery protection vessel. But then, as I say, I realized, well, I asked my superiors, "When can I do my own expeditions?"

I discovered that Dr Lefgren is the president of the Heartland Research Group. The group has recently purchased a replica of an ancient Phoenician ship that non-Mormon Captain Philip Beale sailed around Africa, likely the same route that Lehi sailed to come to America. We’ll discuss more about John’s involvement with the Heartland Research group. Check out our conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98-01JAZc9U

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Starting Heartland Research Group

Interview

GT  02:15  Well, let's move on to another topic. Now both you and I are wearing dark blue shirts that says Phoenicia on it. And you're the president of the Heartland Research Foundation, right?

 

John  02:28  The Heartland Research Group.

 

GT  02:30  Research Group, okay. So, tell us how you got involved with that and then why you're not just the same organization as, say, Rod Meldrum.

 

John  02:41  Well, I was the Sunbeam teacher in primary.[1]

 

GT  02:46  Okay.

 

John  02:47  A great calling. I had wonderful students. I enjoyed it. My wife and I taught that class for a year and a half, which meant I did not go to the high priest group meeting. And I was happy with my Sunbeam experience in terms of the faith of the children and their willingness to learn. It was all good. So, one Sunday, the primary had a different program, and I found myself going back to the high priest group. And we were reading the Book of Mormon.

 

GT  03:29  This is back in Pennsylvania, right?

 

John  03:30  In Pennsylvania, a typical group.

 

GT  03:34  Are you far from Susquehanna, I should ask?

 

John  03:37  Maybe two and a half hours.

 

GT  03:39  Okay.

 

John  03:40  Susquehanna is an important place for the youth to go and see. I've been I've been there many times. It was a funny experience for me, because we were reading the Book of Mormon account of the destruction of the Nephites. This is the account where General Mormon is listing all of his losses. You add them up, it's 240,000 or something. It's a big number. And I said, "I think this happened in Palmyra. I think this is a really wonderful thing that we are able to know where this happened." There were some other members of the quorum, who are university professors and Ph.D. candidates in American history. And they jumped on me and said, "Boy, you got that wrong."

John  04:39  I says, "How is that possible? It's right here. I read it and I know where Palmyra is. I've been there." And that's where it started for me.

 

GT  04:48  What year was this, approximately?

 

John  04:50  That would have been about 10 years ago. I wasn't any Book of Mormon scholar. I had done a lot of work on calendars. But it seemed really strange to me that we have a lot of confirmation concerning Palmyra, Moroni, and the destruction of the Nephites. And so, in my typical fashion, I sort of started. I said, "I'm going to look at this." And that's where it started.

 

GT  05:25  So, were you familiar with Rod Meldrum's work?

 

John  05:28  Not too much. I knew that there was something--I had no particular contact there. I think if I had any origin,

When did the First Vision take place? Dr John Lefgren and Dr John Pratt worked together to come up with a date: March 26, 1820. Dr Lefgren discusses how he used weather records and understanding of maple syrup making to confirm Dr Pratt’s proposed date. We’ll talk more with John Lefgren to discover how he came up with those weather records. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/2TE_UHUpq_g

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Who is John Lefgren?

Interview

GT  00:40  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have an amazing mathematician on the show. We don't get very many of those. Can you go ahead and tell us who you are?

 

John  00:48  I'm Dr. John Lefgren, and I'm excited to be here with Gospel Tangents.

 

GT  00:54  Awesome. Okay. So, you're an economist, I believe.

 

John  00:57  Yes.

 

GT  00:58  Can you give us a little bit about your academic background?

 

John  01:00  I grew up in Ogden, Utah. I went to Weber State.

 

GT  01:05  Weber College back then.

 

John  01:07  Well, in those days it was Weber State.

 

GT  01:09  Oh, it was? Okay.

 

John  01:10  Yeah, in those days it was. I, then, went on a mission to Finland and I was in Finland for two and a half years. Then, I came home, continued at Weber State and then went to the University of Utah.

 

GT  01:23  Nice! A Utah man you are.

 

John  01:25  I'm a Utah man. I was married at the time I was at Utah. My time was occupied with studies and family, not much else on my schedule.

 

GT  01:35  You know, I grew up in Ogden. What part of Ogden did you grow up in?

 

John  01:38  I grew up on Fifth Street on the hill. I went to Ben Lomond High School.

 

GT  01:42  I was going to say, I was an Ogden Tiger, so we were rivals.

 

John  01:45  We were. We were.

 

GT  01:47  Ben Lomond High School was a great school. It was a good place for me. I had the best friends. [I have] nothing but good things to say about my growing up years. [I had a] wonderful family, a lot of excitement, a lot of give and take in conversation and it was fun. I had wonderful teenage years. I was very active in the Boy Scouts.

 

GT  02:11  So, you got your Bachelor's in...

 

John  02:14  Economics.

 

GT  02:14  Economics. Was out from Weber or Utah?

 

John  02:16  From Weber. Then I went to the University of Utah on a National Science Foundation Fellowship for three years. That was adequate to feed me and my family. And after that, I got a Fulbright stipend to the University of Helsinki.

 

GT  02:38  Oh, wow.

 

John  02:39  I was at the University of Helsinki, wrote a dissertation on banking in the early industrialization of Finland.

 

GT  02:46  Oh, interesting.

 

John  02:47  It was very interesting, very fun.

 

GT  02:49  Wow. So, you got a master’s at Utah?

 

John  02:51  No, I got a doctorate at Utah.

 

GT  02:56  Oh, okay.

We've just reviewed the Mesoamerican model for the Book of Mormon with Brant Gardner. Now I'm going to ask Brant to review other geography theories, including Baja, Malay, Africa, & Heartland. We'll also discuss faith and science. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/D5muVPVohwc

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M2C Citation Cartel

Interview

GT  00:30  Let's shift gears a little bit. I know I was talking to Jonathan Neville lately, or a few months ago, and he was complaining about what he called the M2C citation cartel, that you guys won't pay any attention to the Heartland and refuse to even acknowledge they exist. What do you have to say about that?

 

Brant  00:56  Certainly not that we refuse to believe that they exist. That's awfully harsh.

 

GT  01:03  I may have exaggerated there.

 

Brant  01:06  What I would say is Mesoamerican-ists don't look at the Book of Mormon against Mesoamerica and try to justify it against somebody else's theory. We're not trying to say, "This is good, because it's better than that. They had a problem here. But we don't have that problem here." That's not what we're concerned with. What we're concerned with is saying, "Yeah, here's a geography.  Once we have the geography, what else does that teach us?" And so, we're very focused on learning that. They have a different purpose in mind. They have different interests. The few times that we have sort of interacted and said, "Well, here are some of the things that we see as issues and problems with the geography you're putting forth." They're not very interested in them and tend to dismiss them. So, if they're not interested in discussions on that level, they can go build their models, and try to do what we're doing here. So, it isn't so much that we don't acknowledge them. We have tried. We do see some problems with the geography. But the focus isn't to try to diminish anything else in the Book of Mormon. If somebody else comes up with a good argument, yeah, that's wonderful. I haven't seen any that fit the detail and complexity that I see in Mesoamerica. So, I'd much rather spend my time on that than arguing with somebody else over geography. I'm not interested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strengths/Weaknesses Heartland

GT  02:55  Even though you're not interested, do you see any strengths and or weaknesses that you'd like to share with the Heartland theory?

 

Brant  03:11  The strengths and weaknesses of the Heartland theory?

 

GT  03:13  Yes, of the Heartland theory.

 

Brant  03:15  I think it has two strengths. One is it allows people the culturally historical ties to the New York Hill as the Hill Cumorah. Without question, that was a theme in the early Church. People believed that. And the fact that they make a geography that fits, that allows them to keep that, that's a strength. It's a strength that it fits the most common reading of certain prophecies about Promised Land. I probably read those very differently, but they're very much in line with the way they have been traditionally read. And I think that also is a strength. I think the weakness is everything else. Let me give you an example. The last time I remember looking at the [Heartland] geographic mode...

I'm excited to have a Mesoamerican expert on the show. Brant Gardner is an antropologist, and he tells why he thinks the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. We'll talk about anachronisms, and Brant will give his take on the other theories, from Africa to Baja to Heartland. Can a faithful person believe in evolution and an old earth? Brant will answer. Check out our conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1ZyixiZ3H8

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Intro to Meso Theory

Interview

GT  00:29  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a wonderful guest. Tell us your name and where you're calling from.

 

Brant  00:37  I'm Brant Gardner in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

 

GT  00:41  Nice. So, I'm excited. One of my favorite topics to cover--a lot of people don't like it, but I do, and it's my podcast, so, I get to talk about what I want to talk about: Book of Mormon geography theories. I don’t know if you've followed along, Brant. I've already covered Baja. I've covered Heartland. I've covered Malay, which was one of my favorites. But I have not covered Mesoamerica. I don't know how good of friends you are with John Sorensen or--let's see. What’s the other guy's name? [He] lives in American Fork, Garth Norman.

 

Brant  01:24  Oh, Garth. I have known them both.

 

GT  01:27  They both passed away, recently. I know they have slightly different variations on Mesoamerica. But I'm finally excited to have an expert on Mesoamerica. I've been doing this for six years, and it's the first time I've gotten a Mesoamerica expert on.

 

Brant  01:46  Well, it's about time.

 

GT  01:48  It is way past time. It's way past time. I'm still looking for South America. I'll get a South America [expert] here, soon. So, anyway, tell us why we should believe the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. And give us some background there.

 

Brant  02:09  Okay, let that let me start with the first question, which is why should you believe that it's in Mesoamerica? And the answer is, if you're just looking for a religious reason to believe in the Book of Mormon, that's not it. So, Mesoamerica is there and a reason to believe in it, only because it will help enhance and enrich the way we understand the Book of Mormon. So, if you go to the New Testament, you go to the Old Testament, we know where those took place. And because we know where those took place, we can learn about the people. We can learn about the customs. We can learn about the reasons why they did certain things that they did. And if Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, then that Mesoamerican culture that surrounded the Nephite people should inform us something about the way they did the things, and we should be able to enrich our understanding. So, to answer your question, why would you do it? You do it because you want to learn something more and enrich it. Now, what are some of the evidences for it? If I start with geography, I can tell you that just about everybody who ever does any geography finds arguments to say their geography works. So, I think geography is a toss-up. Now you have to be able to say that the geography matches the text. And you've got all of the verses that you have to put together to be able to do that. But everybody finds some way to make that work. So, geography alone,

This is a re-release of our interview from 2017 with Dr. Mark Staker. We're going to talk about Kirtland history. While I knew there was an early convert named Black Pete who likely held the priesthood, I was surprised to learn that Black Pete may have introduced speaking in tongues and polygamy to the Church! We'll discuss the Fanny Alger incident, and Mark's unique belief that Peter, James, & John restored the sealing power before Elijah did in 1836. We'll also cover some interesting, and lesser known factors about the Kirtland Banking failure. Check out our conversation...

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Kirtland History: First Black Mormon was Black Pete!

Interview

GT  01:58  All right, welcome to Gospel Tangents Podcast. I'm Rick Bennett. I'm here with Dr. Mark Staker of the Church History Library. I appreciate you taking some time to talk to us today here.

 

Mark  02:09  Well, thank you for including me.

 

GT  02:10  All right. I believe you have a Ph.D. in anthropology. Is that correct?

 

Mark  02:16  It is. I got a Ph.D. in cultural anthropology from the University of Florida.

 

GT  02:21  University of Florida. So Go Gators.

 

Mark  02:23  Yes.

 

GT  02:25  You were happy with Urban Meyer, the former Ute and now and then Florida Gator [head football coach.]

 

Mark  02:31  Yes. He's done well, for them.

 

GT  02:35  Well, great. So, I want to talk a little bit about your book, The Ohio Revelations. You probably know the name of it better than I am saying it.

 

Mark  02:46  "Hearken, O Ye People: The Historical Setting of Joseph Smith's Ohio Revelations."

 

GT  02:51  Okay. It's a great book. I started it. I didn't finish it. But one of the things, especially with February being Black History Month, that I was personally really surprised at was, as you started out the book, you started talking about a former slave by the name of Black Pete. So, I thought that'd be a great, great place to start here, especially with Black History Month. So, can you tell us a little bit about Black Pete? What do we know about his earliest life?

 

Mark  03:18  Yes. The reason I selected Black Pete to start out with was because he's been ignored as an early member of the Church. And I thought it'd be a good way to build some of those early events around his life since he played a major role, actually, in some of the early events in Kirtland, and has not been covered before. And so, I focused on his childhood. Black Pete was born a slave in Virginia, but there is a northern section of Virginia, that it becomes part of Pennsylvania as boundaries are adjusted. And so, he ends up in Fallowfield, Pennsylvania as a young child. The reason we know about his mother and his birth is because as they became part of Pennsylvania, they needed to register because Pennsylvania had already established a law manumitting the slaves there over a period of time. And he was just too old by four years to receive manumission as a slave. So, he was bound to be a slave his whole life, but it was registered with a mother. Keno was her name.

 

Mark  04:38  Her name suggests that she had come from West Africa in what was called at that time, the Slave Coast. She was probably of Muslim background.

Patrick McKay is an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB.) He’ll discuss breaking away from the RLDS Church, and his attempts to unify the Restoration Movement. We’ll talk about how he uses the Book of Mormon to do that. I’ll also ask him about archaeological, DNA, and other problems with the Book of Mormon, and whether he thinks he could unify with polygamist groups.  Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/librXKqTRl0

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Who is Patrick McKay?

Interview

GT  00:48  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have apostle from the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. Is that right?

 

Patrick  00:57  That's correct.

 

GT  00:57  All right. So, tell us your name. And we want to learn a little bit more about the JCRB.

 

Patrick  01:02  Okay, my name is Patrick McKay. And I am an apostle in the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. You know, there's apostles in all the restoration groups and people worry, there's 12, 24, 48. I'm not concerned. It's more about function, than it is form. And every branch the restoration has some divine inspiration, or at least belief in a divine inspiration of what God's planned for them. And we come out of the Reorganization. We're trying to remain faithful to what we originally embraced as a church, and we do a lot of missionary work. And we have Seventies. Seventies, according to latter day revelation, are to labor under at the direction of the apostles. So that's why we have them.

 

GT  01:47  Okay, so do you have 12 apostles?

 

Patrick  01:49  We have eight.

 

GT  01:50  Eight, okay. I've always wondered, it sounds like the JCRB, did they start in about 1984, after the revelation on women in the priesthood in--well, now Community of Christ? It used to be the RLDS Church.

 

Patrick  02:06  No, in 1984, there was one independent branch that was formed. It was called the Independence Branch, and I happened to be one of the charter members. We had studied for a couple of years. We had had our licenses removed in the church, what they call a silencing.

 

GT  02:23  Oh.

 

Patrick  02:24  Because we had met in some alternative settings on non-scripted Sundays, or whatever. And as a result of that, the church silenced people who met in these alternative settings. So, for a couple of years, we had nowhere to go to church. So, we simply met and studied and looked at the early history of the reorganization and felt that we could form branches that work continue through that avenue. If there was an elder, then a branch could be raised up. And we did that. So, a lot of years went by before we believed that we could create a conference. And that happened in 2005. There was initial effort to gather people to talk about a conference. We met in the historic Stone Church. Then later that year, we held our first conference, and we invited as many people in the restoration branch movement as we could possibly contact. We had 76 branches attend the first conference.

 

GT  03:20  Wow.

 

Patrick  03:21  That was national and international. So, it was it was a Branch conference, the way we designed it, was a branch would have one delegate vote. And every 25 members would get another delegate vote. That way, people that didn't live in [the] Independence area could have representation at the conference. So, in 2005, in 2008,

We're continuing our conversation with Joe Jessop, LDS grandson of AUB leader Rulon Allred. This time we're going to get into sticky Mormon Fundamentalists topics. How many wives do you need to get into the Celestial Kingdom? Do they still believe in the race ban in the AUB? We'll get into more history & doctrine for the Apostlic United Brethren. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/2rIYqzRjlFM

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Adam-God as Preparation for Godhood

Interview

GT  00:43  I feel like we need to talk about Adam-God.

 

Joe  00:48  I told you I'm an open book. Don't ask me questions you don't want me to spew forth on.

 

GT  00:55  Well, I had, and I don't know how familiar you are with Christ’s Church, the Peterson group, essentially. I was like, "I don't understand Adam-God at all. And they actually, I thought, give me a really good explanation. I feel like I have a much better handle on it. But is that one of those things where the AUB kind of views the LDS as like, oh you...

 

Joe  01:19  They don't understand the doctrine. They're not living the fullness of a doctrine.

 

GT  01:23  Right.

 

Joe  01:23  Yeah, absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, it wouldn't, it certainly wouldn't negate their priesthood. But it's just something that the Church just doesn't understand. It's one of the many things that the Church has given up, the precious truths of the gospel that the Church has given up over the years. And there's a handful of them that the AUB group feels that the Church has given up, for sure.

 

GT  01:52  Okay.

 

Joe  01:52  The Adam-God doctrine being one of them.

 

GT  01:55  Because two things that I want to talk about with that. Lindsay Hansen Park, I don't know if you know her. She has a podcast.

 

Joe  02:01  It sounds familiar. I recognize the name, but I don't know.

 

GT  02:04  She has a podcast called Year of Polygamy, and she's also the Sunstone Director.

 

Joe  02:08  Okay.

 

GT  02:10  But one of the things that she said on my podcast was the reason why the LDS church de-emphasizes Adam-God is because if you believe Adam-God, you have to believe polygamy. Now, I mentioned that to David Patrick, who's the President of the Quorum of the Twelve in Christ's Church, as well as Benjamin Shaffer, who's a Seventy. And they said, "You can believe in Adam-God, but you don't have to be a polygamist."

 

Joe  02:41  Yeah, so what I personally think and what I understand of the Adam-God doctrine are two different things. Because I have my own personal philosophy on what I think it is. But, as far as what the fundamentalists believe, and again, everything will go back to Brigham Young on this one. You'll find little slivers of it in Joseph Smith. But if you're going on a mining expedition for Adam-God doctrine, the nuggets are in Brigham Young. You might find a flake or two with Joseph Smith, but, really...