I’m excited to introduce Joe Jessop. He’s the LDS grandson of polygamist leader Rulon Allred. Joe will talk about growing up in the Apostolic United Brethren (that’s Kody Brown’s group for those of you who watch Sister Wives), and we’ll learn more about how the group is organized. Do they have a prophet or a council that leads? How did they split from the FLDS? What do we know about John Taylor’s 1886 revelation about polygamy? Who is Lorin Woolley, and can he be believed about the roots of Mormon fundamentalism? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/KrhO62lNAGU

 

 

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Intro to Apostolic United Brethren

Interview

GT  00:51  All right. Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I am really excited to have another expert on polygamy. We don't talk about polygamy enough here on Gospel Tangents, apparently. So anyway, we've got the grandson of a famous Allred. Can you tell us who you are and who your grandfather was?

 

Joe  01:09  Yeah, absolutely. My name is Joe Jessop. My full name is Joseph Lyman Jessop. And I have two polygamous grandfathers on both sides, on my father's side and my mother's side.  On my mother's side--well, let's start with the father's side because the mother's side is a little bit more famous. On the father's side is Joseph Lyman Jessop. And on the mother's side is Rulon Clark Allred. And as some people know, or probably most people know, he was polygamous leader of the AUB group or, "The Allred Group" during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, and then he was shot and killed in 1977, in his office in, I think it was Murray, right off of State Street. So that was my grandfather. I don't have any memories of him, well, very few memories of him. He died when I was five. I remember going to his funeral. That's really about it.

 

GT  02:08 I hate to do this, but that was 1978, if I remember right?

 

Joe  02:13  Sorry.

 

GT  02:13  When he was shot.

 

Joe  02:14  Yeah. So he was shot in, oh, my gosh, I thought it was 77.

 

GT  02:20  Well, it might have been.

 

Joe  02:20  I was five years old. Yeah, it was 77.[1]

 

GT  02:23  Okay.

 

Joe  02:25  Now that you ring my bell a little bit, the way I remember is because he was killed a year before the 1978 “black revelation.”

 

GT  02:35  Okay. Now I've always wanted to get an expert on and it's really [hard.] I tried to get Kody Brown first. I'm shooting for the big leagues. And his contract wouldn't let him do it yet. So, "Come on! Hurry up and get off that stupid show."

 

Joe  02:53  So, you went for the minor leagues?

 

GT  02:54  (Chuckling) And, yeah, it's been really hard to find somebody [that’s] an AUB expert. So, I'm excited to have the grandson of Rulon Allred. That's really exciting. So, do you know how many grandchildren had?

 

Joe  03:09  Oh, I don't have a calculator handy. But it's, I mean, to give you an idea...

 

GT  03:16  How many how many wives did he have?

 

Joe  03:17  Oh, he had at least seven, and possibly a few more. But to give you an idea, my dad had 35 kids. And when we did a little reunion just before my dad passed away, seven, eight years ago, we had a reunion and just our dad had 195 offspring.

As we continue our conversation with Dr. Todd Compton, we'll discuss some of the more controversial marriages of Joseph Smith. Fanny Alger was just 16 years old in 1833. Was her marriage to Joseph that early, or as late as 1836 as some claim? We'll also discuss Sylvia Sessions Lyon. Was she having sexual relations with both Joseph Smith and Windsor Lyon when Josephine Lyon was conceived? Todd seems to think so. Check out our conversation...

Full Video Interview: Todd Compton

https://youtu.be/fRx3-A4SAl8

Copyright © 2022, Gospel Tangents. All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

 

Counting Joseph Smith's Wives

GT  00:38  I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of the important things that In Sacred Loneliness brought out was the number of wives that Joseph had, which I know is still kind of disputed. How many did you have in In Sacred Loneliness? How many did you document?

 

Todd  01:01  Well, I found another list of Joseph Smith's wives. It wasn't like a modern footnoted list, like the one that was in Fawn Brodie's biography, but it was a good list. It came out —. When did it come out? It was the Andrew Jenson list.

 

GT  01:27  Right.

 

Todd  01:28  [It came out in] what? 1880's, was it? I should know the year. [1887]

 

GT  01:31  Somewhere around there.

 

Todd  01:33  So, he had [27] in his list. So, this was really helpful when I found that. A lot of Nauvoo veterans were alive [in the 1880s]. A lot of the plural wives of Joseph Smith, were still alive. He could consult with them. William Clayton, who had been in Joseph Smith's private polygamy circle, was alive. So, Andrew Jenson had good sources available for this list, and I think there were [27]. So, I accepted all [27] of his wives. I felt that he was a good source. Obviously, he wasn't in Nauvoo, but he had a lot of sources there who were in Nauvoo, and who were Joseph Smith's plural wives and someone like William Clayton [to corroborate the information.] In fact, Andrew Jenson's idea was, he was going to have little biographies of each of the plural wives.

 

GT  02:47  Just like you did.

 

Todd  02:48  Yeah, and, in fact, some of the places where he set in type, [he put in] the name of one of the plural wives, and then nothing [no biography]. Some of the wives he did have biographies, but some he didn't.  I suspect it was because of the wives who were married to other husbands, who I call polyandrous wives.

 

GT  03:18  Right.

 

Todd  03:19  In other words, Zina Diantha Huntington was married to Henry Jacobs, and had a couple of kids with Henry Jacobs. And at the same time she was married, she had a marriage ceremony with Joseph Smith. So, she was married to Joseph Smith at the same time she was married with William Henry Jacobs. By the way, this is one thing [line of research] that was started at the Huntington Library, as I said, as I tried to find the documents behind these polyandrous marriages and [was] trying to document what was going on. One of my big questions was, did they leave the first husbands when they married Joseph Smith? So, diaries were very helpful. In fact, Zina Diantha kept a diary through Nauvoo, which was very helpful. What I came to find was that these plural wives, who were married to other men, they did not leave these other men. They continued to live with these other men, and sometimes had children with these other men.

 

Todd  04:31  So,

Dr. Todd Compton is the author of a couple of books, both of them called In Sacred Loneliness, but the new one is subtitled, The Documents. So we're going to talk a lot about both of his books, In Sacred Loneliness and In Sacred Loneliness: The Documents. These are two fantastic books. We're going to talk a lot about polygamy, some of the early days, and get his opinions. There were some really surprising ones in this episode, dealing with people like Helen Mar Kimball and Sylvia Sessions Lyon and some things like that. I talked to Todd last month at the John Whitmer Historical Association, the 50th anniversary of that organization, so it was back in Independence. You'll notice he's wearing this shirt and I thought I would show it to your full view, so that you can see what he was wearing. Anyway, check out our conversation with Dr. Todd Compton.

https://youtu.be/-hAuP_n_iPQ

 

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Accidental Mormon Historian

Todd Compton

Interview

GT  01:11  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of the icons of Mormon history here today. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are?

 

Todd  01:21  I'm Dr. Todd M. Compton, and this is Gospel Tangents.

 

GT  01:27  All right. So, one of the things I always like to do is get my guests' background, where you went to school. I believe you went to BYU and UCLA. Is that right? Can you tell us more about that?

 

Todd  01:43  Yeah, I started out, of course, high school at Provo High.

 

GT  01:45  Oh, you're a Bulldog.

 

Todd  01:47  Yeah, and then I went to Snow College for two years. I majored in music. Then I went to BYU and majored in English. Then I started doing graduate work in classics, which is ancient Greek and Latin. Then I did...

 

GT  02:07  Was that so you could learn the Bible?

 

Todd  02:10  Well, I was a Nibley fan.

 

GT  02:13  Okay.

 

Todd  02:14  Me and a couple of my friends, we took all the Nibley classes we could. So, I got interested in in the ancient world. I got interested, actually, when I was living in South America, in Peru.

 

GT  02:32  Was that where you went on a mission or something?

 

Todd  02:34  No, my dad taught Spanish at BYU, and he was on sabbatical for a year. So, we went and lived in Peru. So, I visited all the great museums dealing with the ancient world, the Incas and the people before them.

 

GT  03:01  Some people think the Book of Mormon took place there in Peru.

 

Todd  03:04  Yeah.

 

GT  03:05  Were you aware of that at the time?

 

Todd  03:06  That's one geography, yeah. I think people back then were more interested in Mesoamerican geography, like the John Sorenson geography, at that time. I wasn't interested for that reason. It just got really exciting going to these sites and thinking about these really ancient time periods. So, anyway, back at BYU, I eventually decided to do Greek and Latin. I pick up languages fairly well. So, I was able to work on that. Then I went to UCLA, doing ancient Greek and Latin. At UCLA--oh, we're segueing into how I wrote In Sacred Loneliness.

 

This is a re-release of our interview from 2017 with BYU professtor Dr. Richard E Bennett, my name twin.  We're going to talk about temples, especially how LDS Temple worship evolution over the past 2 centuries in the LDS Church. How much did the Kirtland Temple cost? How is Masonry involved? What changes have been made to temple work? What is the law of adoption? Why don't we dance and speak in tongues in the temple anymore? How did work for the dead evolve? Dr. Bennett will answer these and many other questions. You won't want to miss this conversation.  Check it out!

https://youtu.be/zzPNOmY4p2c

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

2 Richard Bennett's Talking

GT  01:09  Welcome to Gospel Tangents podcast. My name is Rick Bennett. I'm here with my name twin, Richard E. Bennett.

 

Dick  01:16  You're counterpart.

 

GT  01:17  Yeah, I'm Richard C Bennett. My dad is also Richard C Bennett. So, there's at least three Richard Bennett’s that I know. So, this will be a little confusing. I go by Rick, what would you like me to call you?

 

Dick  01:28  I go by Dick.

 

GT  01:29  Okay.

 

Dick  01:29  Or Richard, more formally. Mine's Richard E Bennett.

 

GT  01:34  Yeah, so I'm Richard C. So, I usually go by Rick.

 

Dick  01:38  Where do you your Bennett’s come from?

 

GT  01:40  So, my Bennett’s come out of Philadelphia.

 

Dick  01:44  But before the United States?

 

GT  01:46  I don't know. I'm stuck in Philadelphia. I can get out of there. 1765. We need to talk after and see if we can figure out how to get me out of Philadelphia.

 

Dick  01:54  No relation there.

 

GT  01:55  I found a bankruptcy notice that Abel Bennett filed bankruptcy. That's all I know.

 

Dick  02:02  In Philadelphia?

 

GT  02:03  In Philadelphia. So, he was born in 1765 I think. Actually, I did find out that he [served in Revolutionary War.]  I found a pension record for the Revolutionary War. So, I go back to the revolution.

 

Dick  02:19  Mine come from Devonshire, England.

 

GT  02:21  Okay.

 

Dick  02:22  They came over about 1840.

 

GT  02:25  Do you have anybody in Philadelphia?

 

Dick  02:28  No, they are all Canadian.

 

GT  02:29  All Canadian, so yours are all Canadian. All right. Well, anyway, so I'd like to introduce you. I checked out your Wikipedia page. So, you'll have to correct me if any of this information is wrong. But I understand you got a Ph. D. at Wayne State University. I think was in history.

 

Dick  02:47  American Intellectual History, they called it.

 

GT  02:49  Okay.

 

Dick  02:50  Also in Public History, archival management.

 

GT  02:54  Okay. And then, where did you get your undergraduate?

 

Dick  02:58  I got my master's degree here...

 

GT  03:00  at BYU.

 

Dick  03:02  ...in American history. Marvin Hill was my chair,

I'm excited to have Newell Bringhurst back on the show. Newell's latest book is the short biography of Harold B Lee. Lee had one of the shortest tenures as LDS Church president, but that belies his lasting influence on the Church. Lee is the one who really implemented correlation in the Church. We'll talk about Lee's early life growing up, his political ambitions, his amazing work on Church welfare, and his time as a general authority in the LDS Church. Check out our conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAs2zzF-9XY

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Early Life of Harold B Lee

GT  00:34  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a returning guest. I think this is his fourth time. You're coming up there with Matt Harris. I've had him on four times. So, tell us who you are first.

 

Newell  00:47  Well, I'm Newell Bringhurst, and as Rick has pointed out, I've been on Gospel Tangents three previous times. I'm an independent scholar, a retired professor of history and political science from College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California. I guess I'd say I've had a lifelong passion and interest in Latter-day Saint history and studies.

 

GT  01:14  Yes. So, [you're] one of my favorite historians, Newell I don't know if you knew that. That's true. So, we're here to talk about-- I think this is your latest book, isn't it?

 

Newell  01:23  Yes, it is.

 

GT  01:24  So, why don't you show this to the camera, this book that we're going to be talking about today?

 

Newell  01:29  Harold B Lee: Life and Thought. It was an unintended biography. I had no intention, whatsoever, of doing this biography, unlike other major works that I've done in the past. I usually say, "I want to look at that topic or that individual more carefully." And Harold B Lee was one of those that came out of left field, so to speak. It was actually Gary Bergera, who coerced me with a $5,000 honorarium, if I would do a biography, a short biography, for this series that they're putting together, which is akin to the various short biography series that have been done on American historical figures, on world historical figures. They wanted a short, succinct biography. I couldn't resist the temptation to do it, because I'd previously done a similarly short biography on Brigham Young, for the library of American biography series, which was edited by the prestigious Harvard historian, Oscar Handlin. I guess, Gary was in kind of the role of being the local Oscar Handlin and being the overall supervisorial, editor of this series.  Mine was the first in a series of short biographies on major Mormon figures. The second one that just recently came out is one done by Gary Topping on Michael Quinn.

 

GT  03:15  Oh, yes, yes, that's another one. I've read this one. I haven't read that one yet. I'm excited to talk about Harold B Lee, because I know you told me off camera one time, that he was not your favorite character.

 

Newell  03:29  Far from it. I always looked at him as a little bit of a counter figure, because I guess a lot of it was his very orthodox conservative views, particularly on the issue of race. Because he stood out to me as a major figure who stood in the way of lifting the black priesthood ban, when Hugh B Brown was pushing for it to be lifted back in 1969<...

We're continuing our conversation with Nauvoo Crime expert Mary Ann Clements. Up to now, we've been discussing counterfeiting, but now Nauvoo's crime families are getting involved in murder, and several of the criminal gangs are turning on each other as well as citizens. I was surprised to learn that the state government used these charges to spur the Mormons to leave Nauvoo for good, which they did on that cold winter day in February of 1846. Find out more about the Mississippi Mob Murders. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/974VYpVfC6s

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Mississippi Mob Murders

Mary Ann  00:36  So we've established that there was counterfeiting going on. We've established that there were criminal gangs.

 

GT  00:42  So, three gangs, the Joseph Jackson, Edward Bonney, and who was the third one?

 

Mary Ann  00:47  We know Peter Haws did some counterfeiting, and he was a member of the church. But we do know, based on some statements that happened later on in Winter Quarters, someone said that he had admitted he'd been involved in counterfeiting in Nauvoo. So, that's why my belief is there were probably at least three different counterfeiting operations that had occurred in Nauvoo. Then, in the summer of 1845. After Joseph Smith dies, there is this whole idea of counterfeiting. If people know about the governor's troops coming in, that's one reason the governor's troops were going to go into Nauvoo is they--Joseph H. Jackson had told the governor that he could tell him, he could show him where the counterfeiting presses were in Nauvoo.

 

Mary Ann  01:38  So, when the governor brings in the troops, that's what the Mormons are, like, "Ostensibly, they were coming in looking for counterfeiting presses." Well, yeah, because there were counterfeiting presses in Nauvoo. But that is an element that people tend to overlook a little bit. It wasn't just a random excuse. There was evidence of counterfeiting. In fact, we get something that happens later, some people talking about how they actually hid Bonney's two presses. At this time, they had to get him out of his house and hide him somewhere else so that the governor's troops wouldn't find them.

 

Mary Ann  02:16  So, in the fall, after Joseph Smith is killed, there are these questions of were the Mormons counterfeiting in Nauvoo? So, the grand jury in Hancock County actually hears testimony and they bring in this Dr. Abiathar Buck Williams. They asked him, "Was there counterfeiting going on in Nauvoo?"

 

Mary Ann  02:45  And he's like, "Well, yes. Joseph Smith asked me to keep a press in my house, but it was the Mormons. And I was afraid, because they would kill me if I didn't do it. But it was all Joseph Smith." Of course, Joseph was dead by this point. So, Dr. Williams, he would not name anyone else. He refused to name anyone else. He would only name Joseph Smith, who was already dead. So, Hancock County couldn't prosecute anyone. They couldn't come out with any indictments against anyone. Because this Dr. Williams wouldn't implicate anyone else in it.

 

Mary Ann  03:22  So, then we get into the summer of 1845. There's a lot of criminal gang activity that gets exposed in Nauvoo in the summer of 1845. The first problem is, we get what's called the Miller-Leiza murders over in Lee County, Iowa. Lee County is directly across the river from Nauvoo. You have three guys from Nauvoo, who are all Mormon, go over and they're robbing people at night. They're coming in. They're scaring people. They're trying to rob them. There are all these robberies happening.

Sometimes I feel like I discover an amazing talent in Mormon history. You probably haven't heard of Mary Ann Clements. She calls herself a stay-at-home mom, but she has training in anthropology, history, genealogy, and is an amazing writer. We're going to talk about her detective work in Nauvoo crime. Were Nauvoo leaders counterfeiters? It turns out the Nauvoo Charter which prevented Joseph Smith's extradition to Missouri was very attractive to criminals, who befriended the prophet while they continued to commit counterfeiting crimes and even murder. Mary Ann plays the role of detective and will give us the results of her amazing research, and we'll cover a few other myths regarding a wooden leg and Nauvoo polygamy that she has uncovered. You don't want to miss this. Check out our conversation:

Full Video Interview with Mary Ann Clements

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncaVElUfBA

Copyright © 2022, Gospel Tangents, All Rights Reserved. Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Mary Ann Clements

Introduction

Sometimes I feel like I discover a hidden talent. Mary Ann Clements is probably somebody you've never heard of. But she's an amazing researcher, genealogist, anthropologist, historian, and writer. She calls herself a stay-at-home mom, which I think undersells her amazing abilities. Anyway, she's working on a book about Nauvoo crime. It's going to be very interesting. We're going to talk about counterfeiting and murder. Were church leaders involved? Were they aware of some of these things? We'll answer those questions with Mary Ann Clements. We'll also talk about a couple of other myths that she's uncovered. Did a guy with a wooden leg walk from Alpine, Utah to the Salt Lake Temple every day on a wooden leg? That's a 30–40-mile journey, I would say, so it seems pretty unlikely. Anyway, we'll talk about that, as well as she's going to correct the record on some polygamy. So, you won't want to miss this conversation. Check it out.

Interview

GT  01:11 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have an amazing amateur anthropologist/historian/just all-around amazing person. Can you go ahead and tell us who you are?

 

Mary Ann  01:24 My name is Mary Ann Clements. And like you said, I'm an amateur historian and, hopefully, going to be a professional genealogist soon.

 

GT  01:35  Yeah, and she does good work. I have to tell you. I had a big question about something, and she sent me this 20-page memo to fix everything. So, she does good work.  Mary Ann, this is funny, because we've known each other for a long time. It feels like six years or something.

 

Mary Ann  01:56  Yes.

 

GT  01:57  You're a blogger at Wheat & Tares.

 

Mary Ann  01:59  I am.

 

GT  01:59  Except for you don't blog very much anymore.

 

Mary Ann  02:01  Yes, I've been delinquent for the last couple years.

 

GT  02:05  But we love Mary Ann at Wheat & Tares, because she's such an amazing [writer.] I remember when you started commenting. I was like, "We need to get her to blog." She's amazing. She does amazing research. You'll get these stories about this, and then Mary Ann will be like, "Well, I'm going to find out what really happened." And she does! So, a couple things that we want to talk about--I'm trying to decide--do you have a preference where we go first?

Did a man with a wooden leg walk to the Salt Lake Temple every day?

Mary Ann  02:36  We can probably cover the wooden leg story first.

 

GT  02:40  Okay.

We're continuing our conversation with Shannon Caldwell Montez, the author of The Secret Meetings of 1922. We'll learn more about people who attended these secret 1922 meetings, including apostle Richard Lyman. He was the last apostle to be excommunicated for adultery, or was it polygamy? [Did BH Roberts lost his testimony?]  We'll get into those details. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/QIBSWlbc4oY

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Richard Lyman Affair - new details from Shannon Caldwell Montez

GT  00:32  One of the things that I found pretty interesting that's a little bit off topic, but I really want to cover anyway, was the Richard Lyman affair.

Shannon Caldwell Montez  00:45  Yes.

GT  00:48  For two reasons. Number one, he was in these 1922 meetings. Right?

Shannon Caldwell Montez 00:53  [Yes.] And I have to credit him to being one of the people that gave me the list.

GT  00:59  Oh!

Shannon Caldwell Montez 00:59  It was his journal that listed who was at one of the meetings, and Janne Sjodahl's journal that made another list of people. So, thanks Richard Lyman.

GT  01:11  I was wondering how you said that because that's a horrible name to spell. And I can see why.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 01:15  I think it's Sjodahl. I don't know if I ever say it right.

GT  01:19  SJO, right?

Shannon Caldwell Montez 01:19 Yeah, and actually, so, Richard Lyman, in his journal, it says Shurrdall. And so, I couldn't figure out who this was until later. I saw an article about Book of Mormon historicity basically written by a man named Janne Sjodahl, SJODAHL.

GT  01:40  Right. He's Norweigan.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 01:41  Right. And so, SJ. Yeah, all of that. And I was like, “Oh my gosh. That's probably the guy that [was in the meetings.] Lyman just misspelled his name.” And when I went to that man's journals, Sjodahl's journals, that's when I found the other list.

GT  01:58  Oh.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 01:58  So I know it was the guy because he also mentions this meeting in his journal, and then also then makes a list. So, it is the guy. But I think that may be why these meetings weren't necessarily discovered. I think people had seen stuff in Lyman's journals. I don't know. I don't know why I was the first one to put all this together.

GT  02:22  So, let me back up just a little bit then. So, there were three meetings with the General Authorities basically. And then there were three other meetings at Moyle’s house and some of the General Authorities like Ivins and Lyman were there as well.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 02:38  I think they're the only two that were there, and Roberts.

GT  02:41  And Moyle. Wasn't Moyle a general authority?

Shannon Caldwell Montez 02:43  Moyle was not a general authority. He was big into the Democratic Party, as was B.H. Roberts. But he was not a general authority of the Church. He was very close with many of them. And I think that's why he was able to attend.

GT  02:59  Because Henry Moyle was in the First Presidency later, but this was a different Moyle.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 03:02  That was his son.

GT  03:03  That was his son. So, his son was in the First Presidency.

Shannon Caldwell Montez 03:05  Yeah.

GT  03:09  And Sjodahl or however you say his name, we'll talk about him. But first I want to talk about Lyman’s because that is such an interesting [story], and especially you gave more details than I had seen.

Shannon Caldwell Montez has written an amazing thesis on the Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922. BH Roberts was an influential Seventy at the turn of the 20th century. He seems to be the first leader who recognized problems with the Book of Mormon. He presented his findings to church leaders, and eventually spoke to Mormon scholars to find answers to archaeological problems with the Book of Mormon. This led to the first limited geography theory, and other attempts to explain anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Shannon details who attended the meetings, and how their beliefs were affected by this information. Check out our conversation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApMZ0A3An8

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Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

 

 

Intro to Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Interview

GT  01:12 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I have an amazing historian here with us today. Could you tell us who you are and why we're here today talking?

 

Shannon  01:24  My name is Shannon Caldwell Montez. I got a master's degree in history a couple of years ago, and I did my thesis called, “The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922.” In this, I talk about B. H. Roberts, and it's a bunch of series of meetings. I just had a lot of fun, exploring Mormon history, and that's what we'll talk about today.

 

GT  01:46  Nice. Nice. So, I would like to get people's background. I know you went to Nevada, Reno. Where did you get your bachelor's degree?

 

Shannon  01:52  University of Utah.

 

GT  01:54  Oh, a Utah man, you are!

 

Shannon  01:56  Yeah. That’s right.

 

GT  01:58  Well, good. I went to Utah. Go Red! Choose The Red. That’s what people need to know. So, that's awesome. And you get your Bachelor's in history as well?

 

Shannon  02:08  History.

 

GT  02:09  So, you're just history through and through.

 

Shannon  02:10  It's just, I was raised Mormon. I was like, "I'm not going to really need this. I'll just do it. I'll have some fun going to college." And that's what I've done. I've just kind of gone to college to follow my interest, more than pursue money and career.

 

GT  02:29  Well, I went for math and statistics, and this is my hobby.

 

Shannon  02:34  It's probably better as a hobby.

 

GT  02:38  Well, cool. I never majored in history. So, what gave you this idea to talk about the secret 1922 meetings?

 

Shannon  02:48  Well, it was a process. I was originally going to be talking about--my proposal for my thesis was, "What happens when someone's foundational beliefs get challenged?" I had the Protestant Reformation. I had all of these ideas where basic beliefs get challenged, and then the religious views can change based on that. So, my idea, originally, was to--I knew these meetings had happened with B. H. Roberts and the General Authorities. I was hoping to look in their journals and see if I could see a before and after. I think I was a little naive, and I didn't anticipate the fact that these journals would be very hard to obtain. After looking for a while and trying all of the avenues I could, I did find a couple of entries that were interesting to me, that indicated that there were more than just general authorities at some of these meetings.

 

Shannon  03:53  I was able to then find,

Here's another classic from the archives. This is the first time we've released the entire interview of Dr. Paul Reeve. The interview occurred back in January 2017. Paul discusses his amazing book, "Religion of a Different Color." We'll discuss the race ban for blacks excluded from the temple & priesthood, Paul's role with the Gospel Topics essay on race, and his future books he is working on. It's a must-listen! Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/QqHpCox0Q9g

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(Note this conversation was recorded on January 18, 2017, in Salt Lake City, Utah.)

How Mormons Became a Racial Category

GT:  Welcome to Gospel Tangents Podcast.  I’m here with historian and author Paul Reeve here at the University of Utah.  I appreciate you allowing us to come and let us talk to you today here Paul. Thanks.

Paul:  Thank you, thanks for the opportunity.

GT:  Paul is the author of the book Religion of a Different Color.  I wanted to talk a little bit about the book.  Before I do that, do you have any other books in the works right now?

Paul:  I’m working on a documentary history of the 1852 Utah Territorial Legislature.

GT:  Oh!

Paul:  It’s the territorial legislature that Brigham Young speaks to, and it’s the first known articulation of the prophet/president of the LDS Church of a race-based priesthood restriction and it’s within that context of the legislative debates taking place.  [I’m] working with LaJean Carruth who has transcribed the speeches from that legislative session from their original Pitman shorthand.  Some of them have never been transcribed since 1852 and Christopher Rich who is a legal scholar, the three of us are working on a documentary history of that legislative session.

GT:  That’s exciting, because I actually wanted to talk to you about that today as well.  We’ll go into a little bit more history there.  I did not know that.  That’s exciting.  Paul, you are a—well, as I recall you had a recent promotion.

Paul:  That’s right.

GT:  Can you tell us about that?

Paul:  I was promoted from associate professor to full professor this academic year, July 2016.  [There are] three levels of professors.  Most people aren’t aware, but three levels of professors in academia:  assistant professor, associate professor, and full professor.  I was promoted to full professor.

GT:  You’re also the director of graduate studies I understand.

Paul:  That’s correct.

GT:  That’s a pretty time-consuming thing I guess right now?

Paul:  It is time-consuming.  We’re in the middle of the admissions process and so we get to decide who gets admitted and who doesn’t, as well as financial aid and so it’s just generally keeping track of graduate students.

GT:  Yeah, well I understand.  I really appreciate you taking some time out to talk to us.

Paul:  It’s my pleasure.

GT:  Well let’s talk a little bit about your book, Religion of a Different Color.  It’s kind of an interesting take on that.  Kind of the premise of the book, although correct me if I am wrong, is that Mormons were once too white, and now we’re not white enough, so I’d kind of like to talk a little bit about the evolution of that.  Can you talk about that a little bit?

Paul:  Sure, so just to be clear, the exact opposite of what you said:  not white enough in the 19th century,