Did you know there are over 500 Mormon Denominations?! Rick Bennett won't cover them all but will give a guided tour of some of the groups that date to the time of Joseph Smith, as well as some of the newest groups out there! I'll introduce you to several Mormon schisms. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/3ejZjVQkq28

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Intro to Mormon Schisms

GT  00:01  Welcome to Gospel Tangents, the best source for Mormon history, science and theology. I'm Rick Bennett. Back in May, I gave a presentation on several different schismatic groups, some that date to the time of Joseph Smith, and some that are very current, so brand new. This is a presentation I gave, and I hope you enjoy it. Thanks a lot.

 

GT  00:21  All right. Well, let's see if I can share my screen here. Can you guys see this here?

Figure 1 - John Hamer, historian & Community of Christ Seventy

Audience  00:27  Yes.

Figure 2 - Dr Newell Bringhurst, co-author "Scattering of the Saints"

GT  00:29  All right. We're going to go on a tour of the Restoration. It's been fun. For the past six years, I've been talking to people from a lot of different groups. Here we go. Some of my favorite people to talk to are pictured here, John Hamer, Newell Bringhurst and Steve Shields. They've written some great books on the topic of the Restoration. John Hamer and Newell Bringhurst, on the left, put together Scattering of the Saints: Schism within Mormonism, which is a fantastic book. We're going to talk a little bit more about that cover in just a moment. Because it's not just a bunch of cool little circles, it has some pretty cool explanations. It's not comprehensive, though. If you want a comprehensive history, or an encyclopedia of Mormonism, you've got to get the book, Divergent Paths of the Restoration.

 

Figure 3 - Steve Shields, author of "Divergent Paths of the Restoration"

GT  01:32  Steve Shields, he's a member of the Community of Christ, as most of you probably already know, and it's available there. It's actually electronic version only. The book is so large, they couldn't actually get it into a book.[1] So, it's kind of nice to have it in electronic form, because you can search and there's over 500--he doesn't like to use the word schisms. I'm going to use it, but he refers to them as expressions of Mormonism. So, two fantastic books. All three of these guys are probably smarter than me. So, I'm just relying on their expertise as well as some of my own interviews. I want to talk a little bit about John Hamer's book there. John is an amazing graphic artist. He's actually color coded these groups. If you look at the top, I don't know if you can see my mouse at the top there. Can you see my mouse?

 

 Audience  02:36  Yes, we can.

 

GT  02:36  Okay. So you've got Joseph Smith, Jr., and you'll notice that's a blue circle in New York. Then, just below it, you've got Joseph Smith, Jr. as a green circle in Kirtland. The idea between the color changes is these represent theological differences. So, you can see that any of these blue circles like Warren Parrish, Wycam Clark and John Whitmer have tried to return back to the original New York style theology. You can see here as Joseph moves down here to come down the main trunk of this--well, it's not really a tree, but whatever octopus thing here-- that it turns to a ...

This is a re-broadcast from my very first podcast from January of 2022.  I’m excited to interview Margaret Young. She’s a professor of English and Literature at BYU and has written eight books, three of which are on black Mormon pioneers, so she’s kind of an expert on the topic.  She has also produced a play, "I Am Jane" about the life of Jane Manning James.

https://youtu.be/W1OHe8h_ab8

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Margaret Young - Writing About Early Black Mormons

GT  01:11  Welcome. This is my first Gospel Tangents podcast. I've got Margaret Young here today, Margaret is wonderful. I know you teach English, but I call you a historian, especially with black history.

 

Margaret Young  01:26  The last thing I wrote for the Church History Department, their series, Women of Faith, I told them that I had a particular document in it's original. And they said, "So, you have the holograph?"

 

"No, it's the original."

 

And they said, "Well, that's what we call it."

 

And I said, "Okay. You've just found me out. I'm actually not a historian." I don't know the terms. But I have been, since 1998, deeply involved in history of blacks in the West.

Jane Manning James

 

GT  01:55  That's wonderful. So, with February coming up, February is Black History Month. I thought it would be wonderful to talk to you a little bit about Mormon black pioneers. The one thing that, I think, gets a lot of short shrift is Jane Manning James. One of my big interests has always been the priesthood ban. We talk about the men and how it affected the men. But I think Jane Manning James, I know she wrote a letter, which we will talk about.

 

Margaret Young  02:27  She wrote multiple letters asking for temple blessings to every church leader who she knew.

 

GT  02:32  And was denied. So, we'll talk a little bit more about that as we go here. But, I think, that really one of the big blind spots in Black history is the women. What happened to women? So, that's what I'd like to talk to you a little bit about today.

 

Margaret Young  02:51  We can do Jane  [Manning James] and she's not the only one. There are other women. Jane is predominant, in many ways, because she remained in Salt Lake City. She remained LDS. But there are black women who came on the Pioneer trek, who had significance in United States history, not in Utah.

 

GT  03:12  Yes. There's Biddy...

 

Margaret  03:13  Biddy Smith Mason.

 

GT  03:15  We will save another episode for her. I know she's very interesting.

 

Margaret  03:18  Right. So, we can just focus on Jane now.

 

GT  03:21  Yes. Anyway, I just wanted to give a brief introduction of Margaret. I know Margaret teaches at BYU in creative writing, as I recall?

 

Margaret  03:28  That's generally what I teach. I teach literature too.

 

GT  03:30  Okay. And you've made films and are currently making a film.

 

Margaret  03:36  I've made documentaries. I'm making a feature film right now, which is a totally different ballgame. I've just delayed it a little bit, because it's set in the Congo and major things are happening in the Congo right now. And I need to be sure that we're telling the right story. And that we present it at the right time.

 

Patrick Mason holds the Leonard Arrington Chair in Mormon Studies at Utah State University.  He’s written a couple of books on Mormon violence & peace. We’ll touch on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, whether the Book of Mormon promotes peace, violence, or both, and we’ll touch on the recent kerfuffle between him and John Dehlin over a fireside Patrick gave last year. Does Patrick accept the label of apologist or neo-apologist?  Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/s9tNYLwwxhU

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Patrick Mason Talks Mormon/Catholic Studies

Introduction

I'm excited to have Dr. Patrick Mason on the show. He's the head of Mormon Studies at Utah State University and is a graduate of Notre Dame University. So, we'll start out talking about Catholic and Mormon studies, how those are similar or different. It's going to be a lot of fun. Then, we're going to get into a couple of his books: Proclaim Peace and Mormonism and Violence. This might make right. It seems like a lot of times, might wins. But Patrick says that peace is actually more effective. So, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about Martin Luther King, and we'll even compare Brigham Young to Malcolm X. It's going to be a fun conversation. You won't want to miss it. Check it out.

 

Interview

GT  00:52  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have, now it's funny because I called you the dean of Mormon Studies, and you told me that's not correct.

 

Patrick  01:00 It is not true.

 

GT  01:02  Okay. Go ahead and give us your name and your title and where we are.

 

Patrick  01:06  I'm Patrick Mason, and I hold the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University.

 

GT  01:12  Okay.

 

Patrick  01:12  So, I'm not a dean. I used to be a dean at Claremont Graduate University, the Dean of the School of Arts and Humanities, but not anymore.

 

GT  01:18  So, you don't like being a dean?

 

Patrick  01:21  It came with lots of great opportunities, and way too many emails and stress. At this point in my life, I'm very happy just being a professor.

 

GT  01:31  Okay. So, a chair, isn't that more than just a professor, though?

 

Patrick  01:35  Well, yeah, I mean, this is the problem with the academy. I mean, there are all these terms. There are department chairs, oftentimes, which are in charge of a whole department. That's not this kind of chair. This is an endowed chair. Basically, it's an endowed professorship where funds have been raised in order to have a professorship dedicated to a particular topic, in perpetuity. So, you've got all kinds of chairs around different universities that are oftentimes named after people or benefactors or something like this. This is the Leonard Arrington Chair, obviously named after the great church historian, where lots of people donated to make this possible.

 

GT  02:14  Okay.

 

Patrick  02:14  So, I'm not in charge of anybody. I just do my thing.

 

GT  02:20  Now, do you have a staff of Religious Studies professors? Because you told me you're both in the history department and Religious Studies.

 

Patrick  02:26  Right. So, here at Utah State, I am the director of the Religious Studies progra...

We're continuing our conversation with Craig Foster & Dr Newell Bringhurst. We're going to dive deeper into modern-day polygamists beliefs, including their continued ban on black members. What are their justifications? We'll dive into some other groups like Centennial Park, Apostolic United Brethren, and more scholarship on these modern polygamists. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/FT_sWarG-tk

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Modern Polygamists Still Ban Blacks from Priesthood

Interview

GT  00:30 Let's move on to volume three, then, and this is 1890 to the present. This is great because we get into the Mussers and the Allreds and those sorts of people.

 

Craig  00:43  Right.

 

GT  00:44  So give us an introduction.

 

Craig  00:47  Well, we have some really fun essays in there. [It's] no wonder the book is so large, because...

 

Newell  00:57  The total number of essays, why don't you give them that?

 

Craig  00:59  The total number of essays are 17 essays. It starts with the Barbara Jones Brown, "Manifestos, Mixed marriages in Mexico: The Demise of Mainstream Mormon Polygamy." Then, we go into John Taylor's 1886 revelation. Another one that is a fun one is Christopher Blythe talked about "The One Mighty and Strong" or it should be The Ones Mighty and Strong. He had the "One Mighty and Strong: Messianism and the Rise of Mormon Fundamentalism." Then, we have, by Marianne Watson, who is a fundamentalist and my co-author on another book that she and I did, American Polygamy. She wrote, "From 19th Century, Mormon Polygamy to 20th Century Mormon Fundamentalism: Three Contemporary Perspectives on John W. And Lorin C. Woolley." Then we have an essay by Ken Driggs, another one that's on "Rulon Allred and The Search for Refuge" by Eric Paul Rogers and Carrie Roush. Then, an essay that Newell and I did together, "Rulon and Warren Jeffs: The Making of Two FLDS Prophets and the Changing Face of Fundamentalist Mormonism." Then, we have a fun one, "The Changing and Unchanging Nature of Fundamentalist Mormon Clothing Styles" by Shannon Spafford.

 

Craig  02:47  Another one that Newell and I worked on together is "The 1980s Schism Within Fundamentalist Mormonism: the Emergence of Centennial Park." Newell Bringhurst did a good one here, "The 2008 Texas Raid on the FLDS Yearning for Zion Ranch: Its Impact on the FLDS Church and on other Fundamentalist Mormons." What a lot of people forget is that this not only affected the FLDS, but the raid had a ripple effect. It affected all of the fundamentalists in one way or another. Newell wrote another one, "The Fundamentalist Mormon beliefs on Race and African Americans." Then Joseph Lyman Jessop, who was raised in the Apostolic United Brethren, he had a reminiscence, "A Personal Perspective: Growing Up and Out of the Polygamous Community of Pinesdale, Montana."

 

Craig  04:01  Marianne Watson had, what I think, and I think you would agree, it's one of the most interesting essays in the book, "Polygamous Ancestry of Contemporary Fundamentalist Mormons." She did a survey among all of these different fundamentalists. Obviously, a lot of them didn't answer, but a number of them did.  [In the survey, she was] asking if they had ancestors in the church, if that they were polygamous or who they were in the LDS Church. It's just a fun one.

 

Craig  04:41  Then [we have] my essay, "Plural Wives of the Mormon Fundamentalist Leaders." Anne Wilde wrote,

I'm excited to have a newcomer and an old-comer on the show.  This is Newell Bringhurst's 3rd time on the show and Craig Foster's first!  They've co-written 4 books: 3 on polygamy and one on Mormon Presidential candidates. It wasn't just Joseph Smith! We'll dive into candidates like George Romney, Bo Gritz, Sonia Johnson, and Eldridge Cleaver! Plus we'll take a deep dive into polygamy. I'll even ask if D&C 132 could be de-canonized as some critics ask, and I think their answer will surprise you!  Check out our conversation.....

https://youtu.be/KMHYCSNXbIk

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Mormon Quest for the Presidency

Interview

GT  00:46  All right, well, welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm here with two amazing historians. We're at the home of Craig Foster. You're a first time guest here on Gospel Tangents. Could you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, where you went to school and that sort of thing?

 

Craig  01:02

Well, I graduated from BYU. I did all of my degrees at BYU, which usually is, what do they call that? Academic suicide? That's what happened. I have a bachelor's and two masters from BYU. One was in history, and the other one was in Library and Information Sciences. I worked for over 30 years at the family history library in Salt Lake City.

 

GT  01:34 So I believe Dr. Richard Bennett, my name twin, he was a library science guy as well, right?

 

Craig  01:40  I think he was yes. I think along with his history degrees, he also was library [science.]

 

GT  01:47  Fantastic. Do you work-- where do you work now?

 

Craig  01:51  I'm retired.

 

GT  01:52  Oh, you're retired.

 

Craig  01:53  I just recently retired.

 

GT  01:55  You're too young to retire.

 

Craig  01:56  I know, but I spent over 30 years at the Family History Library and then retired.

 

GT  02:06  So we can ask you all about family history or history, and you got everything covered, right?

 

Craig  02:11  Yeah, and if I don't know it, I'll make it up.

 

GT  02:13  (Chuckling) Well, great. Newell, you're a three-time guest, now, I believe, here on Gospel Tangents.

 

Newell  02:20  Right.

 

GT  02:21  So, remind people where you used to work and sort of thing.

 

Newell  02:27  I'm a retired professor of history and political science from the College of the Sequoias, which is located in Visalia, California, where I taught for 25 years.

 

GT  02:38  Well, fantastic. Well, great. Well, you guys have teamed up on a couple of books.

 

Newell  02:44  Well, four books.

 

GT  02:45  Four books. We're here to talk about polygamy. But let's talk about, especially, since you mentioned political science, because you have a political book that you guys worked on together.

 

Newell  02:55  Well, we worked on a book entitled, The Mormon Quest for the Presidency. It went through two editions. It was obviously stimulated by the emergence of Mitt Romney as a presidential candidate in 2008. We started work on it in 2006-2007. What it, basically,

Dr Jesse James discusses the Fowler Stages of Faith, and whether the spirit can be manipulated. We also discuss a good definition of evangelicals, and how different denominations came about. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/aOuy5KWeX1g

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Fowler Stages of Faith

Jesse  00:25  What's going on here can be understood in this [way.] There's this theory. Max Weber. [pronounced Vay-ber]

 

GT  00:37  Spelled Weber, right? [pronounced Wee-burr)]

Jesse  00:38  Yeah, Weber State University.

 

GT  00:41  People mispronounce that all the time.

 

Jesse  00:45  So, good old Weber, German philosopher and sociologist who proposed this church sect theory. And also, James Fowler developed this theory of stages of faith development.

 

GT  01:03  We should really talk about Fowler's stages of faith. I feel bad we haven't talked about that on Gospel Tangents.

 

Jesse  01:05  Okay. Let's do it. So, this church-sect theory proposes that every denomination starts by breaking off of some established Church. So, the most classic example is the Catholic Church. We say that because churches are institutions, that are oftentimes sanctioned by the state, wrapped up in the state. They're very widely approved. Being a member does not put your life in suspicion. It's completely socially acceptable to be part of a church. So, every denomination starts as a church. Then, eventually, when things get too regularized, too institutionalized, too controlled, then people start looking at the church and saying, "This isn't doing what I need for my life. I need extraordinary spiritual experiences. I need ways of connecting with God that can't be regularized, that can't be controlled." So, they break away and they start this new movement, and the new movement starts, usually, as a sect. A sect is a little body of followers, usually after a charismatic leader who has spiritual gifts and also a likeable personality.

 

GT  01:09  So, Mauricio Berger, a Denver Snuffer, somebody like that.

 

Jesse  01:32  Yes. Within the Mormon movement, you see this happen quite a few times where people can break off and they're this charismatic personality. Most charismatic movements like that, most sects will die out after a comparatively short period of time, a generation two, once the founder, once that leader dies, then the movement usually dissipates. But, if they...

 

GT  01:35  David Koresh.

 

Jesse  01:36  Okay, I'm not familiar with that one.

 

GT  01:47  He's the Branch-Davidian leader, big shoot out at Waco.

 

Jesse  02:52  Oh, okay. Yeah.

 

GT  03:00  I don't know, maybe that movement is still around.

 

Jesse  03:01  But it mostly dies out after the founder dies. So, usually in order to survive past the initial founder, you have to overcome the succession crisis. This harkens back to the Joseph and Brigham thing. If the initial founder of your sect dies, usually your organization will dissipate. But, if you find a way to institutionalize the charisma, the spiritual gifts into a position of president rather than a person like Joseph Smith, then you end up being able to pass on that charisma that po...

Dr Jesse James is a research psychologist and assistant professor at Graceland University in Lamoni, Iowa. He gives a scientific explanation for spiritual experiences. We’ll get into artificial intelligence, free will, whether chimpanzees can communicate with humans, and lots of other topics! Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/CLB69EPPfGI

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Can Chimps Speak Sign Language?

GT  00:35  All right, welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have the outlaw Dr. Jesse James. (Chuckling) Anyway, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and where are we?

 

Jesse  00:51  Yeah, so we are right now in Lamoni, Iowa. This is my home, now, for the first time. We have moved away from the west where Mormonism is pretty strong, the Brighamite branch of Mormonism is pretty strong. We've just come out here to Lamoni so I could teach at Graceland University, which is the university that is sponsored by the Community of Christ.

 

GT  01:13  So it's a Community of Christ version of BYU.

 

Jesse  01:16  Yes, exactly.

 

GT  01:17  Now, is it just as conservative as BYU?

 

Jesse  01:19  It's not even close to as conservative. It's incredibly liberal. There were some comparisons that I expected to be a lot more parallel than they have been. Like, for instance, here at Graceland University, hardly any of our students are Community of Christ members, maybe like I think an estimated 20% are members of the Community of Christ. Whereas like 99% of students at BYU or Latter-day Saints.

 

GT  01:47  Except for on the football team.

 

Jesse  01:48  (Chuckling) Right. Yeah, so because Graceland is so focused on their athletics program, kind of like how BYU's football program is more interdenominational, Graceland University has all kinds of athletics and we pull in students to play those sports who are, many of them are not members of Community of Christ. Lots of the faculty are not members of Community of Christ. Because we live here in this town, that a hundred years [ago] was the headquarters of the Community of Christ Church, a lot of people here are Community of Christ.  But, also, a lot of people here are kind of ex-Community of Christ or no longer really participating.

 

Jesse  02:25  So we've got a lot of people on campus, a lot more professors, I think, are Community of Christ than students are. But, still, maybe 50% to 60% of faculty are not members of the Church.

 

GT  02:36  Oh, so more than a half?

 

Jesse  02:38  I would estimate that.

 

GT  02:39  Because you're LDS. (I would say Mormon, but I’m not supposed to say that.)

 

Jesse  02:44  Yes, I'm LDS. My boss at the institution is Catholic. Even our president, President Draves, right now, is not a member of the Community of Christ. She's the first president of the university that has not been a member of the church.

 

GT  03:04  Wow.

 

Jesse  03:06  I mean, they still put a lot of emphasis on their faith statement, and their value statements and things like that. But it's not been so focused on denominational membership anymore. It's a lot more about, are you willing to live up to the standards? [It’s] kind of their version of the Honor Code.

 

GT  03:31  I was going to ask about the honor code. In the Community of Christ,

We're continuing our conversation with Bill Russell, a former professor at Graceland University. We'll talk about RLDS views of apostasy as well as the breakup of the RLDS Church following the 1984 revelation on women & priesthood. We'll also discuss Jeff Lundgren, a man who committed mass murder in Kirtland, Ohio based on the story of Laban in the Book of Mormon. Bill will also tell about his interactions with bomber Mark Hofmann. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/x99Od9-qANQ

RLDS Views of Apostasy-Restoration Branches

Bill  54:08  They also disagreed with so many other things, the theological things that had  happened in the church. So, it was very understandable that they would be opposed, not just the women in the priesthood, but just opposed to-- they'd say, "Well, the church leaders don't seem to value the Book of Mormon like they used to. They just don't value the ideas of restoration."

 

Bill:  This whole history of there was an apostasy about 750 [AD.] That's a crazy date to use for the apostasy. Why not, if you're going to say there was an apostasy, why not Constantine in 320-338 [AD,] or whatever that was. So, the reason that we get come down with 570 is that we had two prominent leaders in the church back in the 1920s, who said that there was, around 520, there were things happening in the Catholic Church that were signs of apostasy. I can never really remember them, because they don't make any sense. So, then that's why, in 570, apostasy begins. The apostasy ends in 1820, amazing.

 

GT  56:04  When Joseph...

 

Bill  56:05  They're very good. They may not have very good historical arguments, but they're real good at subtraction, subtracting one number from another and they come up with the number they're looking for. So, yeah, they've never been able to give, these two guys have never given any kind of real, rational argument for why 750. Roy Cheville was the first guy with a PhD in religion, and in the church. He taught at Graceland from the 1920s to 1958, when he became the presiding patriarch. I was in his classes. I was in those last classes that he taught. So, I kind of knew the late Cheville. But, anyway, he published this book around 1962, or so, after he'd been presiding patriarch for three or four or five years. He said, "Well, some people say that that 570, something happened, but, no," he said. "There was always vibrance," or some word like that. "There was always vibrance in the church. There was never a time when God would have just disowned the church, because there were great theologians and popes and bishops, and people of great character. There were people of great character in every generation," just as there are some--I think if you read Ladderettes Christianity, you just see that it just kind of goes up and down kind of like in the Old Testament. There are good judges, and then there's bad judges, and then there's good judges. Then, the Book of Mormon is kind of on that theme, of that character, too.

 

Bill:  So, anyway, Cheville decided that it was time to try to get people to think in other terms. In 580, there was this big apostasy. So, the result is, as I see it, the problem with our traditional teachings is you've got this apostasy whenever you want it to start, 320 or whenever. There's these 15 generations or 15 centuries or so, when we don't even study those centuries. That's a great part of Christian history. So, now, in the Community of Christ, we've got our theologian in residence is Tony Chvala-Smith. You might meet him because he comes up and teaches a couple of courses every semester. Well, he's got his PhD in Biblical Studies at Milwaukee, I mean, at the University in Milwaukee. What is it called? I can think of it right now. He's got a Master of Divinity as well. So,

Bill Russell is one of my favorite Community of Christ historians. He taught at Graceland University, and told Bruce Jenner to train hard for the 1600 meters in the Olympic Decathlon. We'll learn about RLDS history, and his unorthodox beliefs. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/NGjRr_5-c8g

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Coaching Bruce Jenner at Graceland?

Introduction

I'm excited to have one of my favorite RLDS historians, Bill Russell from the Community of Christ. We're going to talk about some of his days at Graceland University and find out that he actually coached Bruce Jenner, the Olympic decathlete, now known as Caitlyn Jenner. So, that'll be a lot of fun. Check out our conversation….

Interview

GT  01:07  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm so excited to have, can I call you one of the premier historians in the Community of Christ?

 

Bill  01:16  You might be lying, but, no. I think that would be okay.

 

GT  01:22  All right. Well, tell us who you are.

 

Bill  01:23  I'm Bill Russell and I have sort of specialized in Latter-day Saint history since about 1970.

 

GT  01:35  Okay, so tell us a little bit about your academic background. I understand you're a JD. You're a lawyer, I guess. But I know you taught at Graceland.

 

Bill  01:44  Yeah.

 

GT  01:45  Tell us about all your degrees, bachelor's, stuff like that.

 

Bill  01:48  I took a religion major at Graceland, undergraduate. Then I got my Master of Divinity. That's a three-year degree from the Methodist Seminary in Kansas City. I loved it. I mean, it's just some of the best professors I've ever had. Lindsey Farrago in New Testament, I've often thought of him as the best professor I've ever had.

 

GT  02:14  What was the name of that seminary?

 

Bill  02:16  St. Paul School of Theology, a Methodist Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. I just loved it there. So, I graduated there. Then Graceland said, 'Well, we really need somebody to teach Bible and history of Christianity. And that's kind of your strength from seminary. Come on, up to Graceland and teach." So, I said, "Sure." I had always been kind of a goal of mine to eventually teach at Graceland, although early on I thought, I would love to teach something and coach at Graceland. But that now had long, left my objectives by this time. I did coach cross country three times during my career, three times each, for a total of nine years. But that's just because I had a record running cross country and had been pretty successful at it. So, they roped me and the first time that I coached cross country, this is off above the subject.

 

GT  03:23  We're all into tangents on Gospel Tangents. So that's okay.

 

Bill  03:25  So, the first time I coached cross country was I came to Graceland as a freshman. The coach and athletic director said, "Russell, I understand you were successful running cross country at Flint Northern High School in Michigan. I would like you to start the cross-country program at Graceland. So, I did, as a freshman. I went around the men's dormitories and got about five or--we got about six or seven guys.

 

GT  03:51  Because you need at least five.

 

Bill  03:53  At least five. Some meets I only had five, but I think I had a maximum of like a six or seven. I did that for three years and then my senior year,

Lachlan MacKay is one of the historians who helped authenticate the Joseph Smith daguerreotype that appears to be the prophet Joseph Smith. Lach is not only a descendant of Joseph Smith, but he is also an apostle for the Community of Christ. We’ll talk about how he authenticated the photo, whether it could be Hyrum, and what it would take to forge a photo. We’ll also discuss the Jeff Lundgren case. Back in 1987, Lundren justified the murder of a family of 5 in Kirtland, Ohio based on the story of Nephi killing Laban. What does Bill think of that story? Bill also tried to save Lundgren from capital punishment. Check out our conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9kWG5urjZY

Forensic Analysis of Joseph Smith Photo

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(Note this conversation was recorded on Aug 10, 2022.  The interview has been lightly edited for clarity.)

GT  00:59 Welcome to Gospel Tangents, everyone. I am really excited that I've got a Community of Christ apostle back on the show. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are?

 

Lachlan  01:10  My name is Lachlan Mackay, and I oversee the USA, Northeast Field, for Community of Christ, which is Michigan to Maine to Virginia. I also have functional assignments, which include Community of Christ historic sites, and our church history team.

 

GT  01:26  Well, that's awesome. And so where are you currently?

 

Lachlan  01:28  I am at home in Nauvoo, Illinois.

 

GT  01:32  And you've been there for a while?

 

Lachlan  01:34  Yeah, I moved here in 2007. So, I've been here for 15 years, and that followed 15 years in Kirtland, Ohio. I was born and raised in eastern Jackson County, Missouri.

 

GT  01:44  Oh, wow. You’ve hit all the three main history sites, right?

 

Lachlan  01:48  Yep.

 

GT  01:50  Well, that's exciting. I know, me and Steve Pynnaker, we came out there this summer with Paul DeBarthe and his archeological dig on the Times and Seasons building. We got a personalized tour of the Joseph Smith house, which was just fantastic.

 

Lachlan  02:06  It's a lot of fun.

 

GT  02:07  So, I really appreciate that. For those of you who are LDS and you didn't see my first interview with Lach and John Hamer, go back and watch that. It's one of my top, I think, top five interviews still. We talked about the difference between RLDS and LDS temple worship, so, you're kind of a celebrity here.

 

Lachlan  02:36  Scary.

 

GT  02:37  I know I've got a lot of new users or new subscribers here. So, we're here to talk about this cool issue here with the John Whitmer Historical Journal. You were one of the people who helped identify that this really is Joseph Smith, or at least--I guess we can't be 100% sure. But I heard an interview where you said you weren't so sure when you first saw this. Tell us about the discovery of this and why you weren't quite so sure if that was Joseph Smith.

 

Lachlan  03:07  My uncle, Dan Larsen, found this object among items given to him by his mother, my grandmother in 1992. He was also given a watch at the time, Joseph III's pocket watch with his monograph. He thought this object was also a watch that he couldn't open. So,