Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact.

Episode Highlights

• "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy."
• "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths."
• "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else."
• "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration."
• "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative."
• "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership."

Helpful Links & Resources

• The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch
• University of Notre Dame
• Wake Forest University
• Jim Collins - Good to Great

About Nathan Hatch

Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America’s leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture.

Show Notes

• Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher
• Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago
• Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University
• Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame
• Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship
• How did the past come to change and create the world we live in?
• Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration
• Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources
• President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision
• Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh’s visionary leadership at Notre Dame
• “Organizations aren’t self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.”
• "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are."
• The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control
• Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish
• "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker."
• Nathan Hatch’s book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders
• Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building
• Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision
• Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions
• Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression
• Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities
• Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs
• Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential."
• “How do we help young people live their life?”
• Identifying and empowering exceptional talent
• Embracing unconventional hiring practices
• Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams
• Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good
• Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency
• Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities
• Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people’s potential
• Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership
• Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable
• Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others
• Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.