I Hate It Here

Featured Guest: Jocelyn Hays (Director of Hogan Applications, Hogan Assessments)

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You know that coworker who was perfectly lovely until they got promoted and suddenly became a completely different person? 

Yeahhhh….I think we’ve all been there. There’s a reason for that, though! 

I’m joined by Jocelyn Hays to unpack the dark side of leadership, the 11 derailers hiding inside basically all of us, why so many orgs get this wrong, and how the exact traits that help you succeed can become the ones ruining everyone’s day when you stop managing them. 

00:00:00 — Intro

00:01:27 — What Does the “Dark Side” of Personality Actually Mean?

00:03:51 — The 11 Patterns That Can Derail a Leader

00:06:48 — How Do You React When You’re Under Pressure?

00:15:52 — Why Do Derailers Stay Hidden During Hiring?

00:22:05 — When Does a Strength Become a Derailer?

00:25:51 — Why Does Stress Bring Out Our Worst Leadership Behaviors?

00:34:08 — How Can HR Spot Derailers Before They Wreck the Culture?

00:44:14 — How Do You Tell a Leader They’re Ruining the Vibes?

00:49:22 — What Are Orgs Getting Wrong About Choosing Leaders?

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Hogan Assessments is the international leader in personality insights.

With the world’s largest database of personality research and decades’ worth of experience in psychometrics, Hogan produces valid, reliable personality assessments that measure everyday strengths, potential shortcomings, and values and motivators.

Hogan’s solutions empower organizations to hire the right people without bias, boost productivity, reduce turnover, promote diversity and inclusion, identify high-potential talent, develop leaders, and inspire employees to do their best. 

To learn more, check them out at ⁠http://hogan.to/ihateithere⁠

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And if you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration.⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Jocelyn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynhays/

Follow Hebba: 

YouTube:⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠

LinkedIn:⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠

Twitter:⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠

I feel like every AI conversation somehow ends up in one of two places: either "AI is taking all our jobs!" or "Just use ChatGPT for everything!" 

Honestly... I hate both of those convos. 

So instead, I wanted to ask some much more interesting questions! Who's actually making the decisions about how AI gets used at work?  Who decided AI should be ranking candidates, or helping determine headcount? 

And more importantly... should it be?

I invited Aubrey Blanche to help me unpack all of it! 

We talked AI ethics, human-centered design, why productivity might be the worst goal for AI adoption, and somehow ended up on Harry Potter fanfiction and Google Maps conspiracy theories. 

It all connects, I promise!!

00:00:00 — Intro

00:04:08 — What's Changed Most About How You Work?

00:06:00 — Why Go Back to School for AI Ethics?

00:17:48 — Why Has Productivity Become AI's Main Goal?

00:23:29 — What Should HR Ask Before Chasing AI Efficiency?

00:25:17 — How Do You Actually Influence Executives?

00:29:01 — Is "Human in the Loop" Enough?

00:34:14 — Should AI Be Ranking Job Candidates?

00:37:54 — What's the AI Ethics Skill HR Is Missing?

00:43:41 — How Can HR Start Thinking Like an Ethicist?

00:47:14 — What's the First AI Change HR Leaders Should Make Tomorrow?

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With Shapes, people management looks completely different.

Think AI agents handling the routine, a secure HR core, and the ability to build any people tool your org needs, just by describing it in plain english in their built in Shapes Vibe studio.

If your systems feel stuck in 2015, go check out Shapes at https://shapes.co/

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Aubrey

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adblanche/

Read: Ethical By Design: Good Technology Principles for AI

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

Come join Hebba at Safe Space Summit 2026 in Huntington Beach, CA! To learn more, check out: https://www.safespacesummit.com/

Featured Guest: Allison Howell, CEO of Hogan Assessments

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This is The Leadership Divide, a special series with Hogan Assessments in partnership with I Hate It Here! 

Across four episodes, we're saying the thing out loud: leadership often fails because companies pick and develop leaders based solely on vibes and tenure, then act SHOCKED when everyone's miserable. 

Today, I Hate It Here's Hebba Youssef is joined by Allison Howell, CEO of Hogan Assessments, and they are not holding back!

Hebba and Allison get into why trust in leadership is in the gutter, why your favorite "visionary" CEO might actually just be loud, why wanting a manager with basic communication skills is somehow considered a big ask, and more.

00:00:00 — Intro

00:04:56 – What's Shifted in Leadership Since 5 Years Ago?

00:07:27 – How the Erosion of Trust in Institutions Shows Up on a Regular Day at Work

00:11:39 – What Employees Are Asking for From a Leader, and Whether It's Reasonable

00:14:26 – Why People End Up in Management Because They Were Good at a Job, Not Because They're Good at Managing

00:18:21 – The "Dark Side": What It Costs to Misread This Leadership Moment

00:21:54 – How AI Is Reshaping Trust, Judgment, and Decision-Making at Work

00:24:08 – The Less Catastrophic (but Still Bad) Version of Getting This Moment Wrong

00:28:33 – What Orgs Consistently Get Wrong About Selecting and Developing Leaders

00:30:20 – What It Would Look Like to Get Leadership Selection Right

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Hogan Assessments is the international leader in personality insights.

With the world’s largest database of personality research and decades’ worth of experience in psychometrics, Hogan produces valid, reliable personality assessments that measure everyday strengths, potential shortcomings, and values and motivators.

Hogan’s solutions empower organizations to hire the right people without bias, boost productivity, reduce turnover, promote diversity and inclusion, identify high-potential talent, develop leaders, and inspire employees to do their best. 

To learn more, check them out at http://hogan.to/ihateithere

---

And if you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration.

https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out  https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here for even more exclusive insider content!

Follow Allison:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonhowell2/

Follow Hebba: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef

Twitter: https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef

Apparently, we can’t simply leave our trauma at the door and transform into perfectly functioning corporate robots every morning. 

Who would’ve thought?!

Stephanie Lemek joins me to unpack what a trauma-informed workplace actually looks like, why HR needs some damn boundaries, and how something as simple as giving people more choice can completely change the way we work.

Here’s what we got into: 

00:00:00 - Intro

00:01:21 - What Would've Surprised Stephanie About How She Works Now, Five Years Ago?

00:08:26 — Trauma-Aware vs. Trauma-Informed

00:13:30 — The 3 Types Of Safety Every Workplace Needs

00:19:36 — Which HR Processes Are Accidentally Re-Traumatizing People?

00:26:50 — "Don't Trust HR" and Unpacking Where That Distrust Actually Comes From

00:33:07 — Hebba's Story: Grief, Anniversaries, And "The Body Do Be Keeping Score"

00:40:18 — Secondary Trauma And Compassion Fatigue In HR

00:46:16 — The One Thing To Do Differently Starting Tomorrow

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Stephanie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanielemek/

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

Come join Hebba at Safe Space Summit 2026 in Huntington Beach, CA! To learn more, check out: https://www.safespacesummit.com/

Guess what? The Cackle Queens are back! 

My unofficial co-host and forever hype woman Jess Winder joined me to kick off this season, and we did something new. 

We hit record and just let the convo happen with no notes, because who needs prep when you’ve been doing this job for way too long?

We're diving into where HR has been, where it's headed, and why "defund HR" isn't as controversial a take as you'd think if you've worked in old-school HR. 

We also get into three totally different futures HR could have, and what to tell yourself when you're so burnt out you can't imagine one more evolution of this job. 

It’s a little bit unhinged, but what else would you expect?!

00:00:00 - Intro

00: 05:17 - The Biggest Shift in HR Since 2020

00:08:48 - Old HR Morals vs. New HR Morals

00:24:12 - Would You Outsource HR to a $50/Month "HR in a Box" Service?

00:26:49 - Jess's Wildest HR Era: Touring Actual Crime Scenes

00:30:44 - Hebba's 3 Possible Futures for HR: Performance, Full-Cycle, or Architect

00:40:15 - What to Do When Your Company Just Wants "Yes People"

00:42:53 - Advice for HR Folks Who Are Burnt Out and Ready to Quit

If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Jess:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicadwinder/

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

Come join Hebba at Safe Space Summit 2026 in Huntington Beach, CA! To learn more, check out: https://www.safespacesummit.com/

Okay, so as we wrap up this podcast season, we’re gonna make this final episode a little different…featuring Hebba and her thoughts, and apparently zero filter!

This season of I Hate It Here was all about firsts and for the season finale, Hebba makes personal! 

Listen as she walks you through three of her own HR firsts, performance reviews, terminations, and picking the right system, followed by what she wishes she'd done, and what she would tell herself if she had a time machine. 

And then, because Hebba couldn't let the season end without a little chaos, she rounds this episode out with some HR horror stories that were sent in by members of the IHIH community.

Whether you're deep in your HR career or just getting started, this one's a reminder that none of us really know what we're doing the first time, and that's kinda the whole point. 🫶

00:00 - Intro

02:45 - The First Time Hebba Ever Did Performance Reviews

09:08 - Navigating Your First Termination With Empathy

16:59 - Choosing the Right HR Tech Stack

20:30 - A collection of HR Horror Stories
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The Predictive Index behavioral assessment reveals how people work, think, and thrive—so teams can understand each other better and perform at their best.

Because when you truly understand your people, work just works.

Learn more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠trypi.com/ihateithere⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

Come join Hebba at Safe Space Summit 2026 in Huntington Beach, CA! To learn more, check out: https://www.safespacesummit.com/

Madison Montgomery is back, and in this episode, we did what Paul Downs and Meg Stalter inspired us to do…turned our 1:1 into a podcast episode.

The result is a session of unfiltered chaos covering our first ATS implementation together (which is going exactly as well as you'd imagine when two non-detail-oriented people configure a system while actively recruiting on it), Summer House drama through an HR lens, my newly discovered cowboy era, and why neither of us will ever truly get to enjoy the company retreats we plan. 

If you've ever been the person behind the process who never gets to just experience the process, you’ll probably relate to this discussion!

00:00 - Intro

04:55 - Implementing an ATS For the First Time

14:48 - What to Expect in Austin in August

21:23 - Hebba's Favorite Recent Story About Her Mom

28:14 - Other Firsts for Madison This Year

42:04 - Supporting Employees When They're Dealing With Grief

44:35 - Who Would Play Hebba and Madison in a Movie?

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The Predictive Index behavioral assessment reveals how people work, think, and thrive—so teams can understand each other better and perform at their best.

Because when you truly understand your people, work just works.

Learn more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠trypi.com/ihateithere⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Madison

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-montgomery14/

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

55% of orgs expect AI tool experience to be their most in-demand skill within two years! 

Honestly, most of us are still figuring out what to have for lunch, so the timeline feels…a little aggressive. 

In this final episode of the four-part AI Readiness Gap series, presented in partnership with TriNet, DeAnn Alcantar, Learning and Development Manager at TriNet, and Kelly Pacatte, Lead HR Compliance Consultant at TriNet, give us a north star for AI readiness so that we know what to focus on in that timeframe!

We're getting into what it takes to close the gap: the technical stuff, the deeply human skills that matter more than ever, and the mindset shift that's going to define which HR leaders are ready for what's coming and which ones are not.

00:00:00 - Intro

00:02:12 - The Urgency of AI Proficiency

00:05:07 - Is Two Years Enough to Be Efficient With AI as an Org?

00:10:32 - The Human Skills That Are Going to Matter More Than Ever

00:14:44 - The Evolution of How HR Will Function at Orgs

00:22:58 - The One Mindset Shift HR Leaders Need

00:26:31 - What Every HR Leader Feeling Behind on AI Right Now Needs to Know

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Running a small business is hard, and HR should not get in the way. TriNet helps small businesses by outsourcing HR to professionals. This lets business owners get back to the real work: building a company, and leaving a legacy. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Learn more about TriNet⁠⁠⁠⁠.

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

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Follow Our Guests

DeAnn Alcantar: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deannealcantar

Kelly Pacatte: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellypacatte

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠

LinkedIn:⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠

Twitter:⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠

Geography shouldn't be the reason you can't hire your next best person. 

And yet, that’s the reality for hundreds of orgs at the moment!

I sat down with Sagar Khatri, co-founder and CEO of Multiplier, who literally built a company because opening a bank account in Japan took him 12 months. 

We got into all of it: why compliance is a zero-or-one problem (and why so many companies are getting it very wrong), what actually happens to your business when your team spans 50 countries and 70+ nationalities, and why the future of talent is all about finally being able to find them wherever they are instead of hoping they come to you.

00:01:45 - Something Sagar Had to Unlearn Early in His Career

00:03:48 - Why Sagar Started a Company

00:10:43 - How the Pain of Global Hiring is Happening on a Massive Scale

00:20:03 - What the International Structure at Multiply Looks Like

00:31:09 - The Biggest Mistake Companies Make When They Hire Globally for the First Time

00:37:33 - The Relationship Between Diverse and Distributed Teams and Business Performance

00:43:07 - AI’s Impact on International Talent Acquisition

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The Predictive Index behavioral assessment reveals how people work, think, and thrive—so teams can understand each other better and perform at their best.

Because when you truly understand your people, work just works.

Learn more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠trypi.com/ihateithere⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

---

Follow Sagar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sagar-khatri-53529359/

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠

There is a lot to say about joining a startup, and I’m saying that as somebody who has been a part of four of them.

Nothing prepares you for the first time, because you truly have no idea what you’re walking into!

Not even the offer letter or the job description paints the full picture, so Christine Song, founder of the 5 to 9 Society and former CPO at Knix, is here to give you her expertise.

We're talking about walking into a company with no HR infrastructure, a CEO whose behavior made her want to run back to corporate, working 100 hours a week until her hair (literally) started falling out, and somehow still coming out the other side with more love for startups than ever. 

00:00:00 - Intro

00:02:01 - Something Christine Believed About Work That She Had to Unlearn

00:08:26 - What Stepping Into a Startup Role Felt like Vs The Expectation of It

00:21:01 - The Important Role of HR in Startups

00:35:18 - Picking Up on Signs of Burnout

00:40:40 - Startup Culture and Its Demands

00:49:10 - Creating a Life and Identity Outside of Work

00:55:11 - Christine’s Advice For Someone New to The Startup World

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The Predictive Index behavioral assessment reveals how people work, think, and thrive—so teams can understand each other better and perform at their best.

Because when you truly understand your people, work just works.

Learn more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠trypi.com/ihateithere⁠⁠⁠⁠

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If you love I Hate It Here, sign up to Hebba’s newsletter! It’s for jaded, overworked, and emotionally burnt-out HR/People Operations professionals needing a little inspiration. ⁠⁠https://workweek.com/discover-newsletters/i-hate-it-here-newsletter/⁠⁠

And if you love the podcast, be sure to check out⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here⁠⁠ for even more exclusive insider content!

---

Follow Christine

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/songchristine1/

Follow Hebba

YouTube:⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@ihateit-here/videos⁠⁠

LinkedIn:⁠⁠ https://linkedin.com/in/hebba-youssef⁠⁠

Twitter:⁠⁠ https://twitter.com/hebbamyoussef⁠⁠