Keep Talking

Sherry Ning is an author and an essayist, whose Substack, "Pluripotent," has some of the best writing I've come across on human nature, purpose, and how to live. During our conversation, Shelly talks about creating one's own path, success, open-mindedness, beauty, nostalgia, spirituality, and religion.

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00:00 Intro

00:34 A purpose to write

2:35 Trait openness

6:10 Real diversity is found in human personality

8:35 Fame

10:29 WEIRD people

12:43 For happiness, ask: what will make me miserable?

15:45 Success and going your own way

26:34 Open-mindedness and particularity of taste

34:04 Wildflowers: beauty and toughness

39:50 The death of Sherry's father

43:25 Nostalgia and good times

49:47 What modern writer does Sherry enjoy?

52:24 Sherry's religious and spiritual beliefs

Stuart Whatley is a writer, a Senior Editor at Project Syndicate, and the author of "Toward a Leisure Ethic," my favorite essay that I've read of the past few months. During our conversation, Stuart talks about the historic purpose of leisure and work, our culture's obsession with busyness and praise of toil, and the reason for striving towards a life of a leisure ethic: where one has control of one's time, one's energy, and where one works on projects for their own sake.

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00:00 Intro

00:57 What has been a "leisure ethic" in history?

03:51 Isn't extolling leisure a call for laziness?

09:50 The role of work and leisure in history

15:30 The shame of having an anti-work mentality

20:30 A quote from "Toward a Leisure Ethic"

26:48 A response to people who disagree with Stuart

31:57 "Enough" and how to live a life well-lived

40:05 How much we worked as hunter-gatherers

43:22 We lack models for a "leisure ethic"

48:10 Workaholism in America

51:30 Derek Sivers, money hoarders, and insatiable desires

55:00 A story from "The Psychology of Money" and how to use money

Matt Johnson is the Susan Hill Ward Professor of Psychedelics and Consciousness and a professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Johns Hopkins University. As stated on the Hopkins' website, Matt "is one of the world’s most published scientists on the human effects of psychedelics, and has conducted seminal research in the behavioral economics of drug use, addiction, and risk behavior."

During our conversation, Matt talks about the resistance and skepticism he faced in attempting to study psychedelics for therapeutic purposes, herd mentality within academia, and the effectiveness of psychedelics in mitigating human suffering, specifically in cancer patient's end-of-life anxiety, treatment-resistant depression, nicotine addiction, and alcohol addiction. He also talks about the state of mental healthcare in America and the life and work of one of his colleagues, the late Roland Griffins.

Matt has been a pioneer in the psychedelic renaissance, and I believe that his commitment to independent-thinking and freedom of thought, determination in the face of skepticism, and openness to being wrong can be a model for any ambitious person attempting to do original, important, and potentially world-changing work and research.

Rob Henderson is an Air Force Veteran, an alumnus of Yale and Cambridge, an essayist, and the author of "Troubled: A Memoir of Foster Care, Family, and Social Class." During our conversation, Rob talks about his early life, his experience in the American foster care system, and his unlikely journey out of the unstable and chaotic environment of his youth.

Rob is one of my favorite thinkers, and it's damn near miraculous that this brilliant and prolific writer comes from the upbringing that he details in the book. Rob's memoir gives voice to a human experience that is largely invisible and unknown to the American credentialed class: abandonment by one's biological parents, an unstable home life with uncaring guardians, rampant drug abuse and early childhood violence, and a general environment of nihilism that pervades the formative years of life.

Rob's arc gives him a unique perspective into American social class, what really matters in the development of children, and what our society should prioritize for childhood and adult well-being.

Rob notes in the book that "in the U.S., 60% of boys in foster care are later incarcerated, while only 3% graduate from college." We are all fortunate that Rob is one of the lucky ones to escape the crucible of his upbringing, and to give testimony to the lived, troubled experiences of the voiceless millions who have had similar lives, right under our noses.

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(00:00) Intro

(03:00) How the book came about

(08:15) Rob's early life

(18:42) The effect of instability and two quotes from "Troubled"

(26:37) America's misguided "success" obsession with education and credentials

(34:04) How to help kids in chaotic foster care or impoverished homes

(42:29) Should parenthood be more rare?

(53:49) How Rob knew he needed to enlist to change his life trajectory

(01:02:58) Rob addressing rehab and his own trauma

(01:16:04) Shame and rage and deliberately trying to change

(01:22:10) Observations from Yale and luxury beliefs

(01:37:18) Advice for kids with a similar background to Rob

Jon Dean is a postdoc research fellow at UCSD and received his PhD in molecular and integrative physiology at the University of Michigan, where he published a landmark 2019 study on DMT. During our conversation, we talk about how and why Jon became interested in DMT, the details of his 2019 study, Rick Strassman's 2001 book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule", and what Strassman found after giving nearly 400 doses of DMT to roughly five dozen volunteers.

Jon is quick to note how little we understand about consciousness and the mind, and how our world is created in our brains. He discusses the bizarre, rather consistent details that many who take DMT report, and we speculate as to the role that this simple chemical might have in making what we call reality, along with the anecdotal stories of those who believe that its modulation can create a portal into another.

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00:00 Intro

02:04 How Jon got interested in DMT

07:36 How a death of a friend influenced Jon's journey

11:00 The influence of Rick Strassman

12:29 Rick Strassman's work, detailed in "DMT: The Spirit Molecule"

20:11 Anecdotes from what happens to people who do DMT

24:41 How Jon attempts to get funding for a controversial subject

32:51 Jon's three main discoveries about DMT from his 2019 paper

41:54 DMT is the only psychedelic known to be produced by the human body

44:51 Quotes from Rick Strassman speculating about DMT

53:45 How Jon's research on DMT has changed his view on life and death

57:36 Jon's growing acceptance of death post-psychedelic use

59:03 The future of psychedelic research

Robin Dunbar is a professor, an evolutionary psychologist, and the author of many books, including "Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships." During our conversation, Robin talks about how and why he became interested in evolutionary psychology, what evolutionary psychology is, and its explanatory power.

He also talks about human social dynamics, and our "circles of friendship." These concentric circles include the universal findings of how, on average, human numerically structure their social lives: intimate friends (1.5), close friends (5), best friends (15), good friends (50), friends (150), acquaintances (500), and known names (1,500). "Dunbar's number" of 150 is really just one of these tiers.

Finally, Robin discusses why humans have friends, the "seven pillars of friendship," how people vet others for their appropriate tier early in friendship, and the loneliness people often experience when their "inner circles" are not robust and strong. The health and endorphin benefits of real friends, Robin notes, is often better than any therapy or medicine, and is free to all. I loved talking to this fascinating, friendly, and funny scholar, and hope to have him back on the show not too far down the road.

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00:00 Intro

02:51 Why evolutionary psychology?

07:16 Rethinking evolutionary arguments to benefit genes.

15:43 Humanities are actually proper sciences applying evidence.

18:32 Evolution shapes behavior, but brain allows freedom.

26:07 Social groups crucial for primate survival.

29:47 Close friendships crucial for psychological and physical health.

37:16 Research found commonalities in social media posting.

42:27 Club membership based on beer, social interaction.

48:18 In hunter-gatherer societies, 150 descendants are common.

54:40 Friends book explores universal categories for human friendships.

58:41 Close friends can help you live longer.

01:01:39 Building friendships

James Hollis is a Jungian psychoanalyst and the author of many books, including his latest: "A Life of Meaning," which is the primary subject of our conversation. During our conversation, Jim talks about some of the major themes in his work and his book: the shadow, the numinous, psychopathology, lethargy, and fear.

Jim is one of my favorite writers and thinkers, and I reference him as much as anyone. This conversation is full of some of my favorite ideas and quotes, including this first one from his new book:

"Probably the wisest thing ever said about the shadow was uttered by the Roman African playwright Terence, who, a little over two thousand years ago, said, 'Nothing human is alien to me.'”

And the second from the writings of Carl Jung:

"The spirit of evil is negation of the life force by fear. Only boldness can deliver us from fear. If the risk is not taken, the meaning of life is violated."

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00:00 Intro

01:05 Why Jim wrote "A Life of Meaning"

05:28 The shadow

08:38 Why confront one's shadow?

10:48 The numinous and finding your calling

25:20 Lethargy is a threat to living

29:55 A modern culture of distraction

32:28 Jim's decision to become a public educator

37:02 Jim's growth beyond his family of origin

44:30 Psychopathology

48:26 Sin: missing the mark

55:15 Fear - the spirit of evil is negation of the life force by fear

58:50 Jim is a "recovering nice person"

Paul Conti is a psychiatrist, a trauma expert, the former Chief Resident at Harvard, and the author of "Trauma: The Invisible Epidemic." During our conversation, Paul talks about the precise definition of trauma: something that overwhelms one's coping mechanisms and changes the brain, his own personal experience with trauma, the state of mental healthcare in America, how we know one has experienced trauma, how trauma often leads to hidden shame that prevents healing, what trauma is not, how he has stepped outside of mainstream healthcare practices to help his patients, and suggestions for mitigating the negative effects and suffering caused by trauma.

Paul is extraordinarily open and informed about the subject of trauma. It is his view that having a holistic approach to treatment and taking the time necessary to establish rapport with patients is key in understanding and addressing the root-cause of his patients' ailments. This was one of my favorite conversations in a long time, and it ends on a note of hope: by providing some tools that are already available for those in need and noting tools that may come in the near future to help human beings become well.

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Show notes

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(00:00) Intro

02:26 Defining trauma

07:29 How do we know someone has experienced trauma?

11:06 Paul's personal experience with trauma.

17:49 Quote about addressing symptoms in medicine system.

18:13 How Paul knew he needed help addressing his own trauma.

26:32 What isn't trauma?

28:56 Scientific evidence of trauma.

30:39 What commonly causes trauma?

34:13 The relationship of trauma and shame.

40:16 Hope for addressing trauma in modernity, particularly for men.

46:56 Failing to seek help due to social conditioning.

52:00 Paul working outside the medical system and creating rapport with patients.

01:00::08 Tactics for overcoming trauma and suffering

01:06:31 Where we are in our understanding of the mind and brain

01:11:29 MDMA therapy and what Paul is hopeful about in the future

Eric Jorgenson is an investor, the CEO of Scribe Media, and the author of "The Anthology of Balaji: A Guide to Technology, Truth, and Building the Future." During our conversation, Eric talks about what drew him to Balaji Srinivasan as a subject, the overlap between Balaji and the subject of Eric's first book, Naval Ravikant, and the major themes of his new book: technology, truth, and the future.

Marc Andreessen famously remarked that Balaji has "the highest output per minute of new ideas of anybody (he's) ever met." Eric's book documents some of his best and evergreen ideas. Expect to learn Balaji's thoughts on wealth creation, what to prioritize in life, and the importance of risk-taking, independence, and building something valuable.

I think anyone who is interested in seeing the world more clearly, becoming more imaginative about our potential future, and being a better version of themselves will treasure this book.

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(00:00) Intro

(03:01) Why Balaji was chosen as a book subject

(07:25) What excited Eric about Balaji

(12:48) Balaji's biography

(18:28) Technology

(26:58) How to avert technological stasis and decline

(38:35) Truth

(47:05) Philosophy and the future

(55:05) How Eric has changed after writing this book

Peter Levine is a lecturer, a psychotherapist, and the author of various best-selling books including "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma." During our conversation, Peter talks about how our culture deals with and talks about trauma, the oneness of the mind and the body, and viewing trauma from a naturalistic perspective.

Peter has been revolutionary in reframing trauma as something physical, something within the body. His somatic experiencing techniques have been created with this outlook, and aim to help those who are suffering to have a way to release trauma and to reconnect with themselves.

Peter has written that "traumatized people are not suffering from a disease in the normal sense of the word - they have become stuck in an aroused state." His work, begun many decades ago, has improved our understanding of the nature of trauma and has helped many to live happier, healthier lives.

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Show notes

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(00:00) Intro

(02:02) How America approached trauma 50 years ago

(04:13) Nancy and somatic experiencing

(16:14) Changing our understanding of trauma

(25:38) Trauma being viewed as a moral failing

(36:42) Peter's childhood trauma

(42:57) The wounded healer

(47:52) Recommendations to work through trauma

(50:16) A quote about trauma from Peter

(57:07) Viewing trauma from a naturalist perspective

(57:49) Various tools for approaching trauma

(01:03:53) What individuals can do to improve the world