On this week’s episode of the Talkhouse Podcast we’ve got the leader of a killer Chicago band and the co-director of one of the biggest movie franchises in history in a fantastic conversation: It’s Alicia Gaines of Ganser and Lilly Wachowski, best known for The Matrix.

The Matrix you surely know, but Ganser perhaps you don’t. They’re a Chicago band that’s been around for the last decade or so, but really seemed to snap into focus about five years ago with a startling stew of post-punk and art-rock sounds that snarl like some of my favorite elder statesbands—Gang of Four, Siouxsie—but updated. Their third and latest album, Animal Hospital, was produced by Angus Andrew of Liars, which makes sense. Oh, and they’re fierce live: I saw them last year opening for Mclusky and was blown away. Check out  “Stripe” from Animal Hospital right here.

Lilly Wachowski cut a winding path through Hollywood; along with her sister Lana, she made the 1996 thriller Bound—it comes up in this conversation—but took the film world by surprise with 1999’s The Matrix and of course its sequels. The Wachowskis, as they’re known professionally, took their films to weirder places after that rather than trying to go mainstream, with the unfairly maligned Speed Racer—an anti-capitalist blockbuster—and Cloud Atlas, a strange, moving epic. Both Wachowskis also came out as trans in the years after The Matrix, and Lilly, as you’ll hear, has a serious interest in getting that aspect of her life onto the silver screen.

In this deep and friendly chat, Lily and Alicia talk about their shared experience at Chicago’s School of the Art Institute—aka SAIC—as well as Animal Hospital, using original music versus well-known pop songs in movies, finding yourself through art, a painting of a suicidal duck, and Lilly’s next project, which is “wall to wall trans people and trans rage.” I hope she can get it made. Enjoy.

Thanks for listening to the Talkhouse Podcast, and thanks to Alicia Gaines and Lilly Wachowski for chatting. If you liked what you heard, please follow Talkhouse on your favorite podcasting platform and check out all the great stuff in our podcast network. This episode was produced by Myron Kaplan and the Talkhouse theme is composed and performed by the Range. See you next time!

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