In this episode of Liminal Living, Tom Rundel welcomes theologian and author Bruce Epperly back for his third appearance to discuss his new book, Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure on Spiritual and Planetary Transformation. Their conversation flows through themes of hope, mysticism, process theology, and spiritual imagination in a world in need of healing.

They explore how Francis of Assisi, Clare, and Bonaventure embodied a spirituality of simplicity and interconnection that can inspire today’s efforts toward peace, ecological care, and compassionate living. Bruce also shares insights from Alfred North Whitehead’s process philosophy, drawing connections between divine immanence and the living presence of God within creation.

From stories of pilgrimage in Ireland to reflections on hope amid political despair, the conversation invites listeners to see each moment as sacred, each small act as part of healing the moral and spiritual fabric of the world.

Chapters

1. Pilgrimage and Peace in Ireland – Bruce recounts his trip with Gareth Higgins and Diana Butler Bass, exploring lessons from Northern Ireland’s peacemaking for today’s polarized world.
2. Hope Beyond Despair – Discussing the moral arc of history, Jeremiah’s field, and faith in uncertain times.
3. The Inspiration for Healing the World – How synchronicity, Whitehead, and Francis converged in Bruce’s creative and theological journey.
4. Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure – Mini-biographies and their radical simplicity, feminism, philosophy, and spiritual clarity.
5. Process Theology and Mysticism – The union of Whitehead’s philosophy with Franciscan spirituality; God as immanent, relational, and present in all things.
6. Reimagining Prayer and Presence – Tom shares a personal story about reframing prayer and blessing through a process-oriented, Celtic lens.
7. Healing vs. Curing the World – Bruce’s distinction between transformation and domination; hope through faithful small acts.
8. The Song That Cannot Be Taken Away – Francis’s joy on his deathbed and the spiritual defiance of singing amid darkness.

Prophetic Healing and Hope – Speaking truth with compassion, judgment as healing, and love as resistance.

Invitation to Participate – Bruce encourages listeners to join the movement of healing through group study, contemplation, and daily acts of love.

Takeaways

• Hope is active—it’s “buying a field” for a future you may never see.
• Healing begins in small acts; the world changes one moment at a time.
• Francis and Clare broke boundaries between rich and poor, male and female, human and non-human.
• God is not distant or supernatural but interwoven through all of creation.
• Prayer is not about summoning God but awakening awareness of divine presence already within the moment.
• True spirituality bridges barriers—between people, faiths, and even species.
• Prophetic healing names injustice while seeking reconciliation, not destruction.
• Music and joy are sacred resistance against fear and despair.
• Each person contributes to the ongoing creation through small faithful actions aligned with love.

Links

web: https://www.drbruceepperly.com/

Book: Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, Bonaventure

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In this engaging conversation, Tom Rundel and Kathy Khang explore the complexities of faith, deconstruction, and the journey towards reimagining spirituality in a modern context. They discuss the importance of love, community, and the challenges of navigating conversations with differing perspectives. Kathy shares her insights on embodied theology, the significance of human connection, and the need for authenticity in faith practices. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of acknowledging past mistakes, trusting one's voice, and finding magic in everyday moments, ultimately advocating for a more compassionate and human-centered approach to spirituality.

takeaways

• Kathy emphasizes the importance of love in understanding God.
• Navigating tensions between love and anger is crucial in today's world.
• Conversations with differing perspectives require discernment and good faith.
• Embodied theology connects faith with physical experiences.
• Authenticity in faith practices is a challenge for many.
• Human connection is vital in moments of grief and loss.
• Language shapes our faith and community interactions.
• Trusting our voices requires acknowledging past mistakes.
• Making peace with our past is essential for growth.
• Finding magic in everyday moments enriches our spiritual journey.

Chapters

• 00:00 Welcome Back and Coffee Conversations
• 03:03 Deconstructing Faith and Reimagining God
• 06:01 Living in Tension: Love and Anger
• 09:10 Navigating Conversations with Different Perspectives
• 11:50 Embodied Theology: Experiencing God in the Physical World
• 15:02 Reconnecting with Humanity and Faith
• 17:58 The Challenge of Authenticity in Faith
• 20:49 Human Connection in Grief and Loss
• 23:59 The Role of Language in Faith and Community
• 27:03 Trusting Our Voices in a Changing Landscape
• 30:14 Making Peace with Our Past
• 33:01The Journey of Transformation and Mistakes
• 36:01 Finding Magic in Everyday Moments
• 38:57 The Power of Presence and Community
• 41:47 Navigating the Complexity of Faith and Identity
• 45:02 Final Thoughts on Faith and Humanity

Links:

Kathy's Books {Click Here]

web: http://www.kathykhang.com/

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takeaways

• If a good God exists, why does suffering occur?
• We often attribute suffering to a greater good.
• The mystery of God's plan can be hard to understand.
• Tragedies like cancer and war challenge our beliefs.
• Supernaturalism becomes problematic when faced with evil.
• The death of children raises profound questions about faith.
• World events like the Holocaust complicate the narrative of a good God.
• Understanding suffering requires deep philosophical inquiry.
• Faith can be tested by the realities of life.
• The conversation highlights the struggle between belief and evidence.

Links:
Book: [Click Here]

Article: [Beyond the Pitchfork]

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Deconstruction is a journey many are experiencing.

The dichotomy of natural and supernatural is outdated.

Prayer should be seen as cooperation with God.

God's omnipotence is often misunderstood.

Selective miracles create distrust in God.

Enchantment in the world is often overlooked.

Philosophy and theology should work together.

Resurrection narratives can be reinterpreted.

Life after death may involve continued subjective experience.

Trust in God can be rebuilt through understanding God's nature.

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takeaways

• Philosophy begins in wonder and should cultivate it.
• The universe is not disenchanted; it is full of wonder.
• Science and spirituality can coexist and enrich each other.
• Values are perceived through our consciousness and are objective.
• Art and poetry play a crucial role in understanding reality.
• Experiences of enchantment can be reintroduced into our lives.
• The journey of understanding death can be transformative.
• The integration of science and faith requires humility.
• Objective values exist but must be understood in context.
• Practices like meditation and storytelling can enhance our sense of wonder.

Chapters

• Introduction and Context of Wonder
• The Journey of Deconstruction and Re-enchantment
• Integrating Science and Spirituality
• The Nature of Spirit and Consciousness
• The Renaissance of Panpsychism
• Reconnecting Spirit and Matter
• Indigenous Worldviews and Colonial Perspectives
• The Limitations of Language and Dogma
• Art, Poetry, and the Enchantment of Science
• Experiencing the Enchantment of Life
• The Interplay of Subjective and Objective Values
• Practices for Embracing Enchantment

Links

Course: https://www.whiteheadsuniverse.com/

Web: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/

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Chapters Navigating Change: Personal and Professional Transitions The Political Landscape: Insights from Local Governance Reimagining God: Contrasting Views in Christianity The Kingdom of God: Understanding Its True Nature Revival or Division? The Current State of Christianity The Echoes of McCarthyism Awakening from Christian Nationalism The Cruelty of Reality The Cost of Austerity Revival and Reversal of Power Grassroots Hope and Community Building

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• Being in nature and facing challenges is vital.
• Community support is essential during difficult times.
• Toxic positivity denies reality; genuine hope acknowledges pain.
• Pastors often feel powerless in a chaotic world.
• The need for pastoral care is mutual between pastor and congregation.
• Navigating political issues in ministry is complex.
• Moral choices in politics often feel inconsistent.
• Christian nationalism poses a significant challenge to faith.
• Capitalism influences our understanding of God.
• We must imagine God beyond economic systems. Self-interest governs the market, but it conflicts with the Kingdom of God.
• The Kingdom of God operates on grace, not merit.
• Christianity has been co-opted by capitalism in America.
• The Enlightenment shifted God from the material to the immaterial.
• Debt relief is a biblical principle that many Christians overlook.
• Christian nationalism often distorts the true message of the Gospel.
• Freedom and supremacy are often conflated in religious contexts.
• Naming systemic issues is crucial for spiritual growth.
• Experiments against mammon can lead to meaningful change.
• Community practices can reclaim time and challenge capitalist norms.

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• Being in nature and facing challenges is vital.
• Community support is essential during difficult times.
• Toxic positivity denies reality; genuine hope acknowledges pain.
• Pastors often feel powerless in a chaotic world.
• The need for pastoral care is mutual between pastor and congregation.
• Navigating political issues in ministry is complex.
• Moral choices in politics often feel inconsistent.
• Christian nationalism poses a significant challenge to faith.
• Capitalism influences our understanding of God.
• We must imagine God beyond economic systems. Self-interest governs the market, but it conflicts with the Kingdom of God.
• The Kingdom of God operates on grace, not merit.
• Christianity has been co-opted by capitalism in America.
• The Enlightenment shifted God from the material to the immaterial.
• Debt relief is a biblical principle that many Christians overlook.
• Christian nationalism often distorts the true message of the Gospel.
• Freedom and supremacy are often conflated in religious contexts.
• Naming systemic issues is crucial for spiritual growth.
• Experiments against mammon can lead to meaningful change.
• Community practices can reclaim time and challenge capitalist norms.

Sponsors
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Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) 

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takeaways

• Tori Owens and Jonathan Foster discuss their experiences with open and relational theology.
• The definition of love is explored as a non-violent, non-scapegoating energy.
• Personal stories play a crucial role in understanding authority within the church.
• God assumptions can shape our emotional well-being and spirituality.
• Reimagining God in modern contexts is essential for spiritual growth.
• Emotional well-being is tied to our understanding of God and how we relate to others.
• Integrating new understandings of God requires practical steps in daily life.
• Listening to our bodies can provide insights into our emotional state and spirituality.
• Acting our way into new ways of thinking is more effective than merely changing our thoughts.
• The conversation emphasizes the importance of love-centric theology over power-centric theology.

Links:

Links: Jonathans many links: https://www.jonathanfosteronline.com/ 

Tori's Substack: https://toriowens.substack.com/

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takeaways

• Ministry leadership is inherently difficult and often leads to burnout.
• Burnout can stem from vocational disappointment and unmet expectations.
• Relational injuries within ministry contexts are common and can be deeply impactful.
• Pastors often neglect their emotional health, leading to unregulated emotions.
• It's essential for pastors to have friendships outside their congregations.
• The Kineo Center provides support for pastors experiencing burnout.
• Naming and addressing emotions is crucial for mental health.
• Internalized expectations can distort a pastor's sense of self.
• Navigating change in ministry requires awareness of relational dynamics.
• Creating space for lament in church settings is important for emotional health.

Links: 
The Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/ 
The Quiz: https://www.thekineocenter.com/burnoutprevention

Sponsors
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