Lindsey Freeman is a sociologist, writer, and lifelong runner whose book Running offers a feminist and queer reading of the sport. In this conversation, Zoë and Brendan talk with Lindsey about what it means to treat running as a practice, becoming yourself through repetition, staying soft, and trusting that showing up matters even when outcomes don't.

The conversation moves through ideas like the magic circle that makes it acceptable to try really hard in public, the growth of queer run clubs, and the strange emotional math of caring deeply about things that often disappoint you. There's also a delightful tangent about Stuart Murdoch of Belle and Sebastian being a serious runner. Lindsey's advice for writer's block and bonking alike? Have a snack and come back tomorrow.

Get her amazing book here.

This episode is brought to you by Fast Pickle—grab-and-go pickle juice shots at fastpickle.com—and Tantrums, makers of the Crest 6 hydration pack at tantrums.run. Plus: Ultra Trail Drakensberg in South Africa is now open for registration at ultrasignup.com.