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Andrea Hiott has a conversation with philosopher B. Scot Rousse (“B”). B is an Oakland-based, Berkeley-affiliated Heidegger and phenomenology scholar focused on AI’s effects on our capacities to care. He is also a Topos Institute affiliate and a punk drummer. Andrea and B discuss Heidegger’s care as living in “meaningful differences,” embodied affordances, moods, and existential orientation. They explore how AI risks compulsive optimization and an overly narrow picture of the role of language in human life. B argues that technologies design ways of being human, urges users and designers to ask “for the sake of what,” articulates punk’s embodied, communal, joyful “controlled chaos” as an antidote to technological nihilism, and celebrates love and care in their visceral, pluralistic, and risky uncontrollability. Along the way, B traces a path from growing up Hare Krishna in Florida, to an encounter with a philosophy teacher who encouraged his transfer to UC Berkeley where he came under the mentorship of Hubert Dreyfus, whose teaching and critiques of symbolic AI shaped B’s work. B also shares about his work with philosopher-entrepreneur Fernando Flores (thanks to an introduction by Dreyfus), who applies philosophy to organizational “networks of conversations” that coordinate commitments and care for customer concerns, drawing on his experience in Chilean political history and ontological reinterpretation of entrepreneurship. In all of these experiences, B focuses on an abiding and urgent question: How do we protect our capacity to care in an age of optimization? How can you create, in your life, your version of the worldly joy and shared meaning of being in a punk band?

B’s substack is Without Why. 

He currently drums in the bands Realistic, Vexxyl, and Wildfire.

Here is the piece on Hubert Drefyus that Andrea mentions.

Subscribe to B’s YouTube channel here. Support the Hubert Dreyfus Audio Archive Project here.

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00:00 Welcome and Care Question
00:36 Meet B Scot Rousse
04:31 Highlights and Themes
07:08 B Introduces Himself
08:14 From Krishna Roots to Philosophy
10:27 Teacher to Berkeley and Dreyfus
12:01 Ambassadors of Possibility
13:16 Dreyfus Mentorship Years
14:52 Fernando Flores and Careful Organizations
18:40 Heideggerian Care Meets AI
23:56 Care and Agency in Analytic Ethics
30:04

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The Great Psychology Delusion: Why the Mean Misleads and Pluralism Matters

Read the book here.

This is an academic psychology-focused episode with lecturer Marek McGann, whose work spans enactive cognitive science, embodiment, politics, feminist philosophy, and STS. Andrea and Marek discuss his co-authored book The Great Psychology Delusion with Craig Speelman. McGann explains why “delusion” fits psychology’s persistence in treating long-critiqued assumptions as valid, especially the aggregation delusion: averaging group data and applying it to individuals despite human non-interchangeability and change over time, linked to the ergodic assumption and ergodic theorem conditions rarely met in human behavior. They discuss how averaging can create misleading “laws” (e.g., power law of learning), the research–practice gap in clinical work, psychology’s history and method-driven identity, and the need for disciplined, pluralistic, scale-aware science that better integrates perspectives and practitioner expertise.

00:00 Show Intro And Guest
01:23 Book Thesis And Stakes
02:24 Aggregation Delusion Explained
03:54 Research Practice Gap
04:49 More Detailed Book Summary
07:47 Averaging Artifacts And Ergodicity
09:29 Careful Critique Not Anti Psychology
11:06 Warm Reorientation Sendoff
11:51 Conversation Begins
15:17 Why Call It Delusion
20:11 How Psychology Became Method Led
31:08 Aggregation Delusion Deep Dive
33:35 Ergodic Fallacy in Humans
35:21 Scale Slippage and Delusion
37:59 Research Practice Gap Explained
41:01 Clinician Code Switching
42:46 Many Scales of Mind
43:57 MRI Averaging Pitfalls
48:32 Method Silos and Identities
52:43 Care, Careers, and Canalization
55:27 GPS Model for Pluralism
01:00:33 Pluralism Not Relativism
01:02:58 Why Marek Cares
01:06:06 Psychology’s Moment of Change
01:06:56 Closing Thanks and Wrap

Marek McGann has been a lecturer in the Department of Psychology since 2005. His principal research is theoretical work on the enactive approach to cognitive science, which examines the mind more as something we do rather than something we have. This is also related to ecological approaches to psychology, which explore how behaviour and mental life can be examined by looking at what your head is in, rather than what is in your head. He also has a related interest in critical considerations of theory and scientific practice in psychology more broadly.

Marek co-convenes the ENSO Seminars, a series of online seminars with researchers from enactive and ecological cognitive science.

The paper Andrea mentions: Facing Life

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This is an impromptu bonus episode previewing the NYC premiere of Sophie Fiennes’s documentary film Acting, which follows the celebrated theatre company Cheek by Jowl through their production of Macbeth. Andrea is speaking with her this week in NYC.

Andrea introduces the ideas of director Declan Donnellan, whose book The Actor in the Space (2024) helps us get some insight into the film. 

Subjects: the philosophy of performance to spatial cognition, presence, and what it means to be truly alive on stage — or anywhere.

Perhaps this is a good moment to revisit the themes of Macbeth.

Come Saturday April 11th at 6:45pm for the film and Q &A with Sophie Fiennes (and Andrea): ️tickets at https://quadcinema.com/film/acting/

Declan Donnellan: "Human beings are actors. It is hardwired into our DNA — from toddlers playing make-believe to old-age pensioners sharing jokes in the pub. We need to perform. It’s an essential part of being human. Acting starts early. We use it to develop our relationship with our mothers. We watch her and wonder, mirror her smiling, repeat the sounds she makes. We learn things by performing for her, and she performs for us. Does that mean we are lying to each other? Of course not. Performance is woven into the fabric of our lives. It’s as natural and important to us as breathing. Performance is not merely a habit that humans keep repeating across millennia, languages and cultures. It is more fundamental than that. Performance is what it is to be human. It is the operating system for life."

The episode previews a bonus conversation with filmmaker Sophie Fiennes ahead of a screening of her film "Acting," about the London theater company Cheek by Jowl, co-founded by director Declan Donnellan and designer Nick Ormerod. Andrea introduces Donnellan’s ideas from his books "The Actor and the Target" and "The Actor in the Space," emphasizing that performance is fundamental to being human and that acting depends on creating the conditions—especially the space and context—where a character can exist and feel alive, rather than forcing meaning or emotion. The script contrasts older, space-oriented filmmaking with faster kinetic editing, highlights the importance of giving audiences room for their own cognition, and includes clips from Macbeth rehearsal discussing dread, avoidance, and the challenge of convincing the audience. It ends with details about attending the New York screening and future posting of a longer conversation. All links to books and notes are here.

00:00 Love and Dread
00:11 Macbeth in Fragments
01:00 Creative Risk and Space
02:59 Audience Cognition and Care
03:55 Art Beyond Meaning
04:58 Bonus Episode Intro
06:39 Performing Everyday Life
08:11 Who Is Declan Donnellan
10:25 Performance as Human OS
12:12 Why Acting Is Hard
14:20 Alive in Rehearsal
16:24 Space That Supports Life
18:30 Care and Plugging In
21:43 Avoidance and Reacting
24:44 Philosophy and Presence
26:34 Macbeth Actor Dialogue

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 Holding Paradox Through Serious Play: Can serious play be a portal to wisdom? 

This is an episode about puzzles and care. Andrea has a conversation with puzzle maker Jason Robillard (StumpCraft) about how puzzles cultivate new ways of being and seeing, holding paradox by repeatedly joining opposites only to realize they were never quite opposites but mirror-like pieces of a coherent whole. Robillard describes his wooden, laser-cut puzzles built from Canadian fine art, with uniquely drawn organic pieces, symbolic elements, sensory “shock,” and sometimes multiple valid placements that challenge assumptions of a single solution. He connects puzzling to embodied experience, attention, OODA loops, cognitive biases, and navigating complexity through “alternating base camps” and Goldilocks destabilization, the metamodern idea of 'serious play', relating this to career upheavals and identity change. The conversation emphasizes care as community glue and highlights values embedded in his work—curiosity, creativity, integrity, and generosity—plus a resonance with David Whyte’s poem “Start Close In.”

00:00 Paradox Through Play
02:36 Podcast Intro Puzzles Theme
07:54 Meet Jason And His Work
09:20 Puzzles Holding Paradox
11:38 Designing Artful Wooden Puzzles
14:47 Embodied Senses And Touch
16:58 Career Shift Into Puzzles
23:24 Serious Play And Homo Ludens
25:50 Moving Childhood And Safety
31:57 Base Camps And Destabilization
34:30 Polarity Recipes Beyond Flatland
38:47 Designing Paradox Puzzles
39:48 Many Solutions Mindset
42:54 Puzzles as Conversation
47:53 Liminal Times Need Puzzles
56:00 Sensemaking and OODA Loops
01:00:22 Home Gifts and Community
01:03:17 Four Values in Design
01:11:29 Start Closer In Practice
01:13:39 Care Belonging and Vulnerability
01:18:52 Where to Find Jason
01:19:57 Closing Poem Reading

StumpCraft Amazing Instagram Photos and Videos of Games

Jasen’s writings: Releasing the Muse

Jasen on LinkedIn

Metamodern influences: Serious Play

OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, act)

Homo Ludens

Jasen Robillard was always a closet creative who long denied the creative muses, focusing instead on a “secure” engineering career until it dried up in 2017. As is often the case, necessity proved to be the mother of invention… In 2016, Jasen started designing and prototyping his whimsical puzzles which were inspired by other wooden laser-cut puzzles he had enjoyed years earlier. He noted a lack of wooden puzzle availability in Canada, as well as a severe lack of deliberate focus on Canadian fine art. After a year of playful prototyping and a clear end to his engineering-focused career, Jasen decided to launch Stu

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Facing Reality with Clear Eyes but without Desperation: Scilla Elworthy on Listening with the Heart to Transform Conflict

 Three-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee Scilla Elworthy reflects on 70 years of work with conflict and war, beginning at age 12 after seeing tanks in Budapest and being sent to help concentration camp survivors. She describes how others’ suffering “hit” her heart and led her to action in Algeria, the Congo, and South Africa, where she worked on starvation relief, shipped milk powder, and supported education, noting the central role of women in community resilience. Elworthy emphasizes “listening with the heart” to discern what people truly need beyond narratives, and explains how turning to the heart helps release harsh self-criticism. She also shares practical self-nourishment through nature and gardening, and recounts using humanizing, vulnerable moments—like discussing children—to soften high-stakes meetings, including military dialogues in China, as a way to build connection and “power with” others.

"Triple nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for her work with Oxford Research Group to develop effective dialogue between nuclear weapons policy-makers worldwide and their critics from 1983-2003. Founded Peace Direct in 2002, awarded the Niwano Peace Prize in 2003, the Luxembourg Peace Prize in 2020, the GOI Peace Award in 2023. Founded The Business Plan for Peace  based on her latest books - The Business Plan for Peace: Building a World Without War (2017), The Mighty Heart: how to transform conflict (2020), and The Mighty Heart in Action (2022)."

Find all Scilla's work here.

Kyla Scanlon's post mentioned here

00:00 Why We Still Kill
00:55 Action Over Apathy
01:07 Heart As Guide
01:39 Inner Critic Quieted
03:23 Podcast Introduction
07:03 Meet Scilla Elworthy
08:17 Tanks In Budapest
11:32 Early War Witnessing
14:33 Africa Conflict Journeys
17:47 Women Leading Change
19:52 Listening With Heart
22:29 Defining The Heart
25:31 Nature As Nourishment
29:35 Self Inspection To Embodiment
32:41 Taming The Inner Critic
34:04 Heart Led Self Compassion
35:54 Daring Diplomacy With Generals
36:49 Breaking The Ice With Humanness
42:48 Power With Vulnerability
47:24 Courage In The Moment
51:07 Love In The Garden
53:03 Closing Thanks And Future Fears
53:55 Listener Note And NYC Event

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 Janet Levin on Physicalism, Zombies, and Changing Minds

 Andrea hosts philosopher Janet Levin, newly retired after 40 years at USC and the department’s first tenure-track woman hire, to discuss a life in analytic philosophy and debates about mind and consciousness. Levin recounts stumbling into philosophy at the University of Chicago with Ted Cohen and later studying at MIT amid figures like Jerry Fodor, Noam Chomsky, and advisor Ned Block, and writing the Stanford Encyclopedia entry on functionalism. They contrast dualism and physicalism, explain metaphysics as inquiry into what exists and what is possible, and examine thought experiments such as Descartes’ arguments, Jackson’s knowledge argument, and Chalmers’ zombie case. Levin holds that our feelings and experiences are nothing over and above physical processes in the body, primarily the brain and central nervous system. The conversation closes on teaching, women in philosophy, and how openness, identity, and social forces affect willingness to change one’s mind and pursue truth.

The Road Taken APA Talk

Janet Levin

Time Stamps:
00:00 Big Questions on Mind Change
01:47 Consciousness and Zombies
02:11 Welcome and Season Setup
03:22 Meet Janet Levin
07:31 Stumbling Into Philosophy
08:25 Why Minds Change Slowly
11:10 Synthetic Hippocampus and Extended Mind
12:57 Chicago Origins With Ted Cohen
18:02 MIT Era and Cognitive Revolution
22:01 From Behaviorism to Functionalism
26:17 Defining Physicalism and Supervenience
29:23 What Is the Mind Really
34:46 Cognitive Phenomenology Debate
37:31 What Metaphysics Studies
40:02 Classic Metaphysics Puzzles
43:15 Free Will and Determinism
46:34 Descartes and the Self
51:41 Conceivability and Zombie Arguments
58:40 Dualism’s Causation Problem
01:11:40 Type B Physicalism and Phenomenal Concepts
01:22:46 Water Lightning Mind
01:24:15 Identity Theory Pushback
01:27:51 Physicalism Explained Broadly
01:30:05 Phenomenal Concepts Introspection
01:32:17 Introspection As Skill
01:34:44 Defending Armchair Philosophy
01:37:22 Armchair Near Window
01:39:10 How Minds Change
01:43:55 Bias Identity And Windows
01:45:35 Women In Philosophy Shifts
01:50:28 Grad Training Mentorship
01:54:43 Teaching Confidence Bloomers
01:57:42 Love Retirement Future Questions
02:02:12 Host Outro Waymaking

Giving Page

Longer Show Notes and PDF of APA talk

Janet Levin is Professor Emerita of Philosophy at the University of Southern California, where she was a longtime faculty member in the School of Philosophy. Her research focuses on epistemology, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of psychology. She earned her Ph.D. in philosophy from MIT and her B.A. from the University of Chicago. 

Much of her work engages with one of the hardest problems in philosophy: how to account for the subjective, felt quality of conscious expe

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Love and Philosophy Beyond Dichotomy: Way Making, Care, and a New Season

Andrea Hiott introduces Love and Philosophy Beyond Dichotomy and reflects on how a late-2023 research project became a podcast shaped by the guiding question of “way making”: how we find our way and how our way makes us. Drawing from philosophy, neuroscience, urban planning, ecology, biology, and navigability heuristics, she reframes life’s most crucial action as care, challenging fixed separations like ontology, epistemology, and axiology and emphasizing “constellation” or kaleidoscopic thinking over either/or dichotomies. She previews more rigorous work addressing questions about consciousness, representation, agency, self, mind, and technology through the lens of care, and mentions an upcoming book, Holding Paradox. A new season begins tomorrow March 17 with philosopher Janet Levine, releasing monthly episodes on the 17th, with show notes summarizing key ideas from the past two years.

Give here: https://loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page

Here is a link to the free Love & Philosophy Field Guide which comes to your email: https://making-ways.kit.com/01025445f6

or

find it here: https://lovephilosophy.substack.com/p/focusing-on-care-field-notes-and

00:00 Welcome and Project Update
00:27 Waymaking as Core Question
01:03 Care as Life’s Foundation
03:48 Beyond Either Or Thinking
04:49 Books and Rigorous Philosophy Ahead
06:38 New Season Schedule and Thanks
07:15 Support the Work
07:43 The Hard Parts and Staying in Care
08:31 Show Notes Summary and Closing Good Wishes

Field Notes at https://making-ways.kit.com/01025445f6

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From the archive.

Giving Page

Andrea introduces an archive episode of Love and Philosophy featuring Perry Zurn, provost and associate professor of philosophy at American University about the book Curious Minds, coauthored with Dani Bassett. The intro previews an upcoming season launch with Janet Levin. 

In the following conversation, Perry links curiosity to desire and love, arguing love can guide curiosity away from appropriative or objectifying inquiry. Zurn reframes curiosity not as an individual desire to fill information gaps but as a social practice and a “capacity to connect,” drawing on network science, complexity, and ecological aesthetics through the idea of “edge work.” Andrea and Perry discuss diverse styles of curiosity (busy body, hunter, dancer), curiosity’s role in shifting knowledge networks and methods, interdisciplinary resistance, and how breaking “edges” or “cracks” can be both destructive and creative, relating curiosity to hope and to more-than-human ecologies. Perry also describes the book’s artwork by Poonam Mistry and the dedication to children who ask whether things must be this way.

Perry Zurn's website

Curious Minds: Buy the book

00:00 Archive Season Preview
00:56 Why Curiosity Matters
03:19 Support And Welcome
03:53 Love And Curiosity
06:28 Origins Of Curious Minds
08:51 Curiosity As Practice
11:24 Edge Work Explained
15:18 Pioneering And Ethics
17:39 Complexity And The Brain
21:27 Styles Of Curiosity
26:08 Curiosity Across Divides
30:12 Walking As Knowing
32:31 Methods As Paths
36:34 Why New Paths Threaten
39:38 Dead Ends And Branching
40:33 Connectional Curiosity
42:48 More Than Human Curiosity
47:29 Cracks Hope And Destruction
51:35 Daring To Disturb
53:47 Art And Dedication
56:45 Closing Reflections

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 From the archive. First aired in Jan of 2025. A conversation about Hegel. Andrea talks with Karen Ng, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Vanderbilt University. The discussion delves into Hegel's ideas on contradiction, self-consciousness, life, and love, revealing how these notions are intricately intertwined in his work. Karen Ng brings forward her insights from her award-winning book 'Hegel's Concept of Life,' highlighting the radical nature of Hegel's thought and its relevance in modern contexts. Together, they explore deeply challenging philosophical concepts, making connections to contemporary issues in philosophy, environmental science, and cognitive theory. Join us as we navigate through Hegel’s complex ideas and uncover their enduring significance.

00:00 Hegel's Contradictory Philosophy
00:47 The Machine Model vs. Organic Unity
02:55 Introduction to Karen Ng and Her Work
06:40 Karen Ng's Journey with Hegel
16:17 Kant's Influence and the Copernican Turn
24:57 The Concept of Life and Internal Purposiveness
39:55 Exploring the Conditions for Intelligibility
40:27 Hegel's Radical Thought on Life and Meaning
41:44 Primitive and Sophisticated Sense-Making
42:09 Self-Conscious Forms of Life
42:37 Hegel's Connection Between Life and Meaning
43:56 The Speculative Identity Thesis
44:41 The Shock of Hegel's Absolute Idea
45:53 Thinking and Corporeality
47:51 The Radical Nature of Self-Conscious Life
48:52 Challenging Cartesian Dualism
49:38 Kant's Dualism and Moral Philosophy
50:37 The Speculative Identity Thesis and Cognition
52:42 The Radical Connection Between Life and Cognition
53:05 Contemporary Philosophers on Life and Mind
53:32 Hegel's Influence on Modern Thought
01:06:06 The Importance of Teaching Philosophy
01:07:46 Hegel's Thoughts on Love and Life
01:09:12 The Concept of Free Love
01:10:03 The Role of Love in Hegelian Philosophy
01:13:26 Concluding Thoughts on Hegel and Love

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 Love, Science, and the Dynamics of Change: From the Archive

This is a replay of an earlier conversation with Richard Watson (which was already an unpublished conversation we'd had earlier, so there's lots of nesting here). Initially focusing on Universal Darwinism and its limitations, the discussion evolves into a broader examination of alternative mechanisms like learning and mutual transformative change. Andrea and Richard delve into nuanced definitions of individuality and agency, challenging the reductionist view in favor of a more integrative approach. They explore the intersection of science and subjectivity, positing that love, characterized as 'deeply vulnerable mutual knowing,' plays a critical role in understanding relationships and evolutionary processes. This thought-provoking dialogue highlights the dynamic interplay of biological systems and the potential for a more compassionate and creative understanding of life's complexity.

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:27 Andrea's Reflections and Richard Watson's Work
00:56 Defining Individual and Body
01:14 Evolutionary Units and Mutual Transformative Change
01:41 Academic Ideas on Evolution and Cognition
03:27 Richard Watson's Background and Research
05:22 Natural Selection and Adaptation
12:02 Learning Processes vs. Natural Selection
21:08 Cooperation and Competition in Biology
28:53 Individuality and Agency in Living Systems
39:20 Bioelectricity and Gene Expression
40:51 The Bidirectional Relationship of Cells and Genes
41:34 The Limits of Natural Selection
42:55 Love as a Scientific Concept
47:06 Evolutionary Algorithms and Their Shortcomings
50:00 The Evolution of Cooperation and Individuality
54:09 The Role of Love in Evolution
59:25 The Dance of Relationships and Resonance
01:07:33 The Creative Process of Evolution
01:18:01 The Balance of Love and Fear

Richard Watson

What's Love Got To Do with It

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