Ep. 68 Talking Prison and Street Gangs with returning guest and gang culture expert retired Lt. Brian “BC” Sanders. In his 20+ years with a large agency in the southeastern U.S., Brian served on various proactive units including Gang Suppression, homicide, drug unit, aggravated assault and more. He is known for developing sources, actionable gang intelligence, motivating others to learn and work gangs and pushing disruption initiatives to reduce violence.

In this episode, we explore the origins, evolution, and power dynamics of prison gangs – why they form, how they recruit, what their initiations or jump-ins look like, how they tend to self-segregate along racial lines. We compare them to how street gangs operate within the prison including how and why street gang members can still call the shots on the street even while behind bars. And we look at how prison and street gangs coexist.  

We delve into the well-known case of Sex Money Murder (SMM) leader “Pistol Pete” Rollack, one of the most notorious gang leaders who famously ordered the murder of two fellow gang members while he was serving a life sentence, a crime that sent him to solitary confinement.

If you haven’t already, check out my first conversation with Brian in Ep. 44 in which we talked about types of street gangs, how they recruit, the people who join them and how gangs have evolved over time. We discuss their hand signs, graffiti and bandanas known as flags, and initiations called jump-ins.

Brian teaches virtual and in-person classes on gang culture for law enforcement and citizens and how if you know what to look for and what steps to take, you can disrupt the spread and violence of gangs. You can find out more on his website (link below). Also check out Brian’s podcasts “The Disruptors with Brian Sanders” and “Nightshift,” the true crime podcast he co-hosts with the lovely Andrea Up Late on YouTube and all podcast platforms.

His website has links to the podcasts, his social media handles and info on his classes. You can contact him directly through the site.

https://thedisruptorswithbriansanders.com/

The Disruptors on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/5QiNmgm8Z5MgQDAzHa6FeI?si=765b5cb1b9674adf&nd=1&dlsi=33e625c9e3984a0f

The Disruptors on Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/the_disruptors_podcast/#

Night Shift Andrea Up Late YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/@andrea_up_late

 Brian’s email:

[email protected]

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 67 – In Part Two of my interview with NYPD Det. Tom Smith (Ret.) we discuss 9/11 and how the day unfolded for him; what it was like working rescue and recovery at Ground Zero and later at the landfill to identify belongings and remains and the unique emotional toll of trying to identify those we lost.

After 9/11, Tom was assigned to the elite FBI/NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) for which he held a Top Secret/SCI clearance. As he says in the interview, “The responsibility was enormous…You have to prevent 9/11 from ever happening again. You are now responsible not only for New York, but the world.”

While with JTTF, Tom was deployed in 2009 to the war zone in Afghanistan to coordinate the rescue of a New York Times journalist who had been kidnapped by an Al-Qaeda affiliated group. Tom and the JTTF team were able to create and execute a plan to bring this American hostage home. 

Then in 2018, Tom’s JTTF partner alerted him to a school shooter threat at the high school in upstate NY where Tom was living and working. The high school was the very one his son and daughter were attending. Tom and his partner investigated and built a case that led to the arrest of the would-be shooter finding, among other evidence, the list of students he planned to kill on the last day of school, all of whom were friends of Tom’s kids.

We close by reflecting on his 30-year career, the inspiration he drew from his NYPD Detective father, the support of his wife and family. And just how much a thank you means.

We of course talk about their true crime podcast the Gold Shields Show which Tom co-hosts with his good buddy retired NYPD Sgt. Dan Murphy. They reached their 100th episode in 2024 and launched Season Three in January 2025 with some incredible guests. You can find them on all podcast platforms. Links below.

If you haven’t already, be sure to check out Part One of my conversation with Tom. We cover the early days of his career with NYPD starting in 1990 on patrol in Harlem. Within a few years he joined the anti-crime team and later Narcotics where he became a detective. He then moved into Gang Investigations in 1998 and then the Robbery Unit in the Bronx in 1999.

I want to add that Tom was recently inducted into the National Law Enforcement Officers Hall of Fame and presented with the Lifetime Achievement Award. Quite an honor – a deserved one. Congratulations, Tom.

Website

www.thegoldshieldshow.com

Instagram:

@thegoldshieldsshow

Facebook

LinkedIn

YouTube

Tom also is involved with:

Impact Solutions

Wheelchairs For Warriors

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 66 - Rescuing an American journalist kidnapped in Afghanistan, thwarting a school shooter, responding to Ground Zero on 9/11 - NYPD Det. Tom Smith (Ret.) did all of it in his 30 years with NYPD. Following in his NYPD Detective father’s footsteps, Tom joined NYPD in 1990 and started in patrol in Harlem. Within a few years he joined the anti-crime team and later Narcotics where he became a detective. He then moved into Gang Investigations in 1998 and then the Robbery unit in the Bronx in 1999.

It was during his time there that 9/11 happened. We will talk about how the day, weeks and months unfolded for him. After 9/11, Tom was assigned to the elite FBI/NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) for the remaining 17 years of his career. He held a Top Secret/SCI clearance, conducted briefings for representatives of the highest levels of government and traveled to 18 countries to handle complex terrorism investigations. In 2009, Tom was deployed to the war zone in Afghanistan to coordinate the rescue of a New York Times journalist who had been kidnapped by an Al-Qaeda affiliated group. Tom and the JTTF team were able to create and execute a plan to bring this American hostage home. 

We also cover the recent shooting death in December 2024 of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in midtown Manhattan. In his time as detective with NYPD, Tom investigated homicides. I wanted to get his take on how this played out from an investigation point of view.

Tom is co-host of the podcast Gold Shields with his buddy retired NYPD Sgt. Dan Murphy. They draw on their considerable law enforcement experience and knowledge to bring listeners the inside story on large scale often well-known investigations and missions by detectives and military operators, as well as criminal behavior, personal stories of survival and more. They reached their 100th episode in 2024 and are launching Season Three in January 2025. Here's where you can find them:

Website www.thegoldshieldshow.com

Instagram: @thegoldshieldsshow

Facebook

LinkedIn

YouTube

Tom also is involved with:

Impact Solutions

Wheelchairs For Warriors

Thanks for listening to On Being a Police Officer. YOU are what keeps me going.

Find me on my social or email me your thoughts:

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www.onbeingapoliceofficer.com

©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 65 To mark the four-year anniversary of the podcast, I’m revisiting earlier episodes with content and issues that remain relevant today. This episode is about the impact of a deadly force encounter on the officer, something that is rarely discussed. I review the powerful documentary “Officer Involved” with the filmmaker Patrick Shaver, a former police officer. Over several years Patrick interviewed law enforcement from around the country about their incident and emotional toll it took on them. He also interviewed mental health experts who have researched and written about the subject. We are all sensitive to the tragedy surrounding deadly use of force on those lost and their loved ones. This film and Patrick’s interview are important elements to understanding the whole story. As Patrick says in the interview, there are two sides to the gun and both people are forever changed. My goal is to help us all better understand what the job really is and show the complexity of what it means to be a police officer.

Also in this interview, Patrick and I talk about his film DINKHELLER. It’s about Deputy Kyle Dinkheller who was tragically killed in GA in 1998 during a traffic stop gone horribly wrong. Many of you know of his incident.

Patrick Shaver has done multiple documentaries showing the human side of law enforcement. You can find out more about him and his work at his website. Patrick funds his work through the proceeds of DVD and streaming sales of his films: http://www.officerinvolvedproject.com/films

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 64 Imagine policing without a gun or not being approved to drive lights and sirens until three years on the job. I’m talking policing in the UK with Constable Ross who is a response officer with the Hertfordshire Police Department which is about an hour outside of London. Ross has three years on and serves in a patrol capacity.  We are using only his first name for his privacy. He tells me: “The vast majority of officers are unarmed. In fact, the basic package when you're out of training school is a baton, incapacitate spray, handcuffs, leg restraints and a stab vest. And then your wits. That's what you've got.”  

To drive lights and sirens requires extra training that officers have to be put forward for and pass. “You can drive a marked vehicle on your own after your 15 weeks with a training officer, but you can't drive above the speed limit. It does feel ridiculous when someone's needing help, and you have to stop at a red light.”

The other unique aspects to policing on the UK is the challenge of investigating a criminal practice called “county lines,” a method of moving drugs throughout the UK. It’s a way for individual high-level dealers to obfuscate themselves away from the street and therefore away from the evidence. They groom young people with no criminal record to transport the drugs on the trains using burner phones which is what he means by “lines.” 

Also of interest are two high-profile homicide incidents that were occurring in the UK at the time of this interview, one of which caused weeks of rioting. And one of which involved a cross bow as the murder weapon!

We talk about the shared negative narrative on law enforcement, staffing issues, what 2020 was like in the UK, the tough calls and the rewards as well as Ross’ family history of serving in law enforcement. I appreciate Ross’ reaching out to me from across the pond and getting perspective on what it’s like for a new officer these days.

 Thanks for listening to On Being a Police Officer. YOU are what keeps me going.

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 63 National Law Enforcement Suicide Awareness Day 9/26 – revisiting my interview from Sept. 2021 with Inspector Steve Hough co-creator of Blue H.E.L.P.

To mark the four-year anniversary of my podcast I’m taking a look back and reposting a few episodes from the early days with content and issues that remain relevant today. This is about the tragedy of officer suicide, not just the loss of life, but how that loss of life is regarded. We are all keenly aware of the devastating frequency with which we see reports of yet another officer who has taken his or her own life. For many of you, these losses are not news reports – they are personal and painful. As I said when I aired this interview in 2021, I want to draw attention to this issue and the support that does exist to prevent suicide and do what small part I can to honor those we have lost.  So, for National Law Enforcement Suicide Awareness Day on Sept. 26, I’m reposting this interview with Inspector Steve Hough who along with Karen Solomon and Dr. Jeffrey McGill founded Blue H.E.L.P., a non-profit organization committed to honoring the service and sacrifice of law enforcement officers who have been lost to suicide and to supporting their families and loved ones. It is the only organization in the country that collects LE suicide data. Blue H.E.L.P. also works to de-stigmatize mental health and job stress issues and connects officers to wellness and treatment programs. Blue H.E.L.P. is the organization that in 2020 designated Sept. 26 as National Law Enforcement Suicide Awareness Day.  

At Blue H.E.L.P.’s website https://bluehelp.org/ you can find important information on services; stories of family members who have lost their LEO to suicide; the Honor Wall recognizing the service of those officers; and information on what you can do for National Law Enforcement Suicide Awareness Day.

Blue Help is part of First Help which extends the same honor and services to all first responders and military veterans lost to suicide. This month, First Help unveiled Heroes Memorial Park in Rockwall, Texas which features the monument they are creating on which the names of all first responders and military veterans lost to suicide will be etched. Here is a link with more information:

https://1sthelp.org/memorial-park/

And one programming note, this originally aired as I said in 2021 when we were in the midst of the pandemic; Covid for that period was taking more lives than we were losing to suicide. 

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Why I do this podcast – Four Year Anniversary! It was September 2020 – the height of the riots and civil unrest.  I had to find a way to stand up for all of you in law enforcement. The attacks – physical and emotional – and the toll they took were too much. I could not sit idly by. I could not be silent.  And so "On Being a Police Officer" began.

By then, I had already been working with law enforcement in my area for ten years after the tragic loss of five officers to ambush murders in late 2009, all in less than a month's time. Through the work I started in honor of them, I developed an understanding of and deep respect for those of you who put on that badge and go out there every day risking your own lives to protect ours. By 2020, I had to spread my message of support to a wider audience. I am grateful that through this podcast, I have been able to interview law enforcement from around the country and to tell your stories, your message to a national (even international) audience. 

“On Being a Police Officer” started as and still is a podcast with a mission, and that is to give law enforcement a voice so we can see the person in the uniform, the person behind the badge. Every story is unique, and yet every story shows the commitment, service and sacrifice you make.

By sharing these stories with a civilian perspective, my goal is to help law enforcement feel supported and appreciated, and to bring my fellow civilians along with me on this journey of understanding.

You can help me spread this message by continuing to listen and by sharing it with others. If you’re on Apple podcasts, please leave me a five-star review: scroll down the list of episodes until you see Ratings & Reviews. Tap the five stars and then scroll down again to where it says Write a Review. If you are on Spotify, hit Follow and then tap the gear icon to give me a five-star rating there. All of this helps push the podcast up in the algorithm and makes it discoverable to a wider audience. Thank you!! 

I also want to thank those of you who were with me from the start and who helped make this real. Sean, Linda, Nick, Britt to name a few. I also want to thank my husband and sister for always being my first listeners before each episode goes live. Your support means everything.

Thanks for listening to On Being a Police Officer. YOU are what keeps me going.

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 62 Justified or not? The Airman and the Deputy – Fatal Officer Involved Shooting – Breakdown with Daniel Carr of Police Law News. Once again, I am turning to Daniel Carr of Police Law News to break down a controversial, tragic incident. This is the incident involving an Okaloosa County Sheriff's Deputy and his response to a domestic disturbance that led to the use of deadly force that took the life of US Air Force Airman Roger Fortson on May 3, 2024. Mr. Fortson answered the door after the deputy announced himself. Mr. Fortson was holding his gun pointed down at the ground. The deputy perceived this as a deadly threat and used deadly force. The deputy was later fired and in August was arrested and charged with one count of manslaughter.

As Daniel and I say, this one is tough. There is much to be sad about. There are many opinions. There is much criticism. The media’s coverage at times is inflammatory and inaccurate. We wanted to discuss it in as fair a manner as possible.

You can find Daniel at Police Law News on all social media. Here is his IG handle: @Police.Law.News

And here is a link to Daniel's Substack article in which he breaks down the incident and which includes links to the body cam:

https://substack.com/@policelawnews/p-144492920

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 61  Lawful but awful? Unjustified? The Deputy Sean Grayson – Sonya Massey incident: a breakdown with Drew Breasy, host of The Comm Center and Daniel Carr of Police Law News. We are covering this together because this is a tough one and it requires thoughtful and thorough analysis. Both Drew and Daniel are returning guests. As many of you know, Drew retired as a lieutenant after serving 29 years with the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office and Daniel recently retired from the Albuquerque Police Department where he served for 20 years. He also holds a law degree. You’ll see where Daniel, Drew and I land on this one. 

To recap: On July 6, 2024, two deputies with the Sangamon County, IL Sheriff’s Office were dispatched to Sonya Massey’s home based on her 911 call of a possible prowler on her property. Deputy Sean Grayson and another responding deputy searched her property as well as nearby properties and found no prowler. They then contacted Sonya Massey to let her know their findings. It became clear to them that she was potentially experiencing mental health issues. They also had questions about a car with broken windows that was on her property. Both deputies entered the home. During their conversation, they asked her to turn off the pot of boiling water that was on her stove. As she moved toward the stove, she picked up the pot and said to Grayson, “I rebuke you in the name of Jesus.” Body cam shows her throw the pot at Grayson who sees this as a deadly threat or the threat of great bodily harm and uses deadly force.

There are many elements to this case that have caused great debate. Did she actually throw the water? Was deadly force justified? Much of this is exacerbated by other factors: Grayson had not turned on his body cam until after the shooting. His manner in issuing commands to drop the pot and his post-shooting behavior are questionable including delaying the rendering of aid.

As I say at the top of the episode, this one is tough. But before making my own decision as a civilian, I wanted to walk through it with Drew and Daniel, both of whom have covered this extensively. I encourage you to check out this episode of The Comm Center with Drew Breasy and Jonathan Bates during which they cover the 911 calls by Sonya Massey’s mother on July 5th and then the Grayson/Massey July 6th incident including body cam footage. Drew also has covered it on his own social media. And I encourage you to check out Daniel Carr’s coverage on his Police Law News content on social media and especially this Substack article.  You can find Drew and Daniel on all social media. Here are their IG handles:

@whatsaydrew

@policelawnews

Check out my prior interviews with both Drew and Daniel!!

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org

Ep. 60 In Part Two with Pete Forcelli, we discuss his promotion in 2007 to ATF Deputy Assistant Director of the Phoenix Division and the series of events that led him to turn whistleblower on the scandal known as Operation Fast and Furious. Pete documents it all in his new book “The Deadly Path: How Operation Fast and Furious and Bad lawyers Armed Mexican Cartels.”

It’s a page turning account of his shocking discovery that ATF agents were being ordered by federal prosecutors to let illegally purchased guns cross the border into Mexico so they could be tracked. Unfortunately, the ATF lost track of more than 1400 guns that were allowed to walk, two of them used in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in 2010 and later were feared to have been used in the assassination attempt on Gabby Giffords.

When prosecutors responsible for the gun walking attempted to indict special agent turned whistleblower John Dodson, Pete stepped forward to testify before Congress. He did so at great peril to himself and his career.  It took four years for him to clear his name. This is not just an ATF story, this is not just a government story. It’s the story of a man who stepped forward to do the right thing, the cost of which took its toll. 

We also cover the Jean Baptiste Kingery grenade walking scandal. Pete and his team were able to get Kingery to confess to transporting inert grenades into Mexico to convert them into explosives. But the very same prosecutor behind Fast and Furious refused to approve Kingery’s arrest. Kingery was released and returned to Mexico to continue working with the cartels.

After testifying, Pete went on to hold a number of roles with ATF including as special agent in charge of the Miami Field Division during which he oversaw ATF's response to some of our country's worst mass shootings: at Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport and at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland. And he led the investigation into the acquisition of the firearms that were used in the Pulse Nightclub Shooting. 

If you missed In Part One of my conversation with Pete in Ep. 59, we covered his time with NYPD walking a foot beat in the Bronx and later becoming a homicide detective.  He left NYPD after 15 years to join ATF in New York in June 2001. He was one of many who responded to Ground Zero on 9/11 and one of many diagnosed with lung cancer for which Pete has been successfully treated.

We pick up in Episode Two with Pete’s move to Phoenix.

You can find Pete’s book "The Deadly Path" on all major book retailers including Amazon. You can find Pete and get a signed copy of the book at his website. And you can find Pete on LinkedIn.  Here is info on his co-author Keelin McGregor in case you're looking for someone to help you write that book.

I would like to honor the work and sacrifice of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. End of Watch Wednesday, December 15, 2010

https://www.odmp.org/officer/20596-border-patrol-agent-brian-a-terry

Agent Terry was a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and had served with the United States Border Patrol for 3 1/2 years. He had previously served as a police officer with the Lincoln Park, Michigan, Police Department. He is survived by his parents, brother, two sisters, five nieces, and one nephew.

Thanks for listening to On Being a Police Officer. YOU are what keeps me going.

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©Abby Ellsworth. All booking, interviews, editing, and production by Abby Ellsworth. Music courtesy of freesound.org