REAL TIME Podcast

Everyone’s path to truth and reconciliation can look different, but the first step often begins the same way: listening to the stories and experiences of others.

Stories can challenge perspectives, open doors for meaningful dialogue, and carry important teachings forward. They can also connect us through shared emotions and experiences, encourage reflection, and help us consider our own role in truth and reconciliation.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Mike Downie, Sue Heddle, and Michael Linklater each bring their own journeys and perspectives to the conversation. They share the stories that have shaped their paths as community leaders and storytellers, and why listening and learning is an important place to begin.

Helpful resources mentioned in this episode: 

• The Gord Downie & Chanie Wenjack Fund
• Hockey Cares - True North Aid | Canadian Charity Supporting Indigenous Communities
• Boys with Braids (@boyswithbraidsteachings) • Facebook
• Sohkisiwin Solutions
• No Surrender: The Land Remains Indigenous by Sheldon Krasowski and Winona Wheeler

Transcript

Michael Linklater: The reason why you have two ears and one mouth is because you should listen twice as much as you speak. That's something you listen, so exactly what you said.

Shaun Majumder: That's good.

Michael: You just listen. There's a lot you can learn.

[music]

Shaun: Do you guys realize how much story is going on in our minds at any given moment, how important storytelling is every single day? Sometimes I take it for granted, but that is what drives the human being forward in life. It's story. We're always making up stories in our head to make sense of what we see in front of us. Sometimes we're making up stories to get off of a ticket. It's like, "Officer, I didn't see the light. I thought it was a different colour. I'm colourblind. Blah." You know what I mean? We're always making up stories. Storytelling is what we're talking about today, specifically through the lens of truth and reconciliation.

Today we've got three amazing guests. We've got Sue Heddle, 2026 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award winner and founder of Hockey Cares. We have Mike Downie, documentary filmmaker, brother of Gord. He's going to be talking about his superpower, which is storytelling through documentary. He and his brother Gord made The Secret Path, which is an incredible story. Then we have Michael Linklater, founder of Boys with Braids movement. He is a powerhouse unto his own. He's not only an amazing storyteller, he's also the co-founder of Sohkisiwin Solutions. He's someone to be reckoned with. You're going to love hearing all of their stories right now here on REAL TIME.

Guys, welcome. We've got a full house today on this week's episode of REAL TIME. Listen, a big theme is community. Today we invited the entire community for a chat. I am so stoked today. We're going to be talking about all kinds of amazing themes. We're getting into some of my favourite topics like storytelling, which is-- It's funny. I was reading a book recently, guys, called The Science of Storytelling. I realized story never stops. It is constant. It's an important part of another topic that we're going to talk about today, which is reconciliation and the Canadian story.

I think we have three of the best possible guests that we could have. Michael Linklater, do people call you Mike, or is it always Michael? Because Mike Downie is always around saying, "I was here first. I get Mike first." Michael, what do people call you mostly?

Michael: Depends how close you are to me. Some people will call me by my nickname, but most people call me Michael. but either works.

Shaun: What's your nickname?

Michael: My nickname's Chooch.

Shaun: Oh, I love it.

Sue Heddle: Oh, I like that.

Shaun: [unintelligible] called Chooch?

Michael: Yes.

Shaun: Where did that come from?

Michael: Long story short, my mother was a part of the Sixties Scoop. She ended up getting taken and she was adopted to Trenton, New Jersey. I was actually born in New Jersey. After a few days after birth, I caught a choo-choo train to Thunder Bay, Ontario. When I arrived, my great-aunt is the one who raised me. Her late husband used to call me choo-choo boy because I came all the way from-

Shaun: Came on the choo-choo.

Michael: -Trenton, New Jersey from a choo-choo train. As I got older, Chooch stuck.

Shaun: I love it. Is it tatted on your neck somewhere?

Michael: No.

Shaun Majumder: That's a great name, man, Chooch. May I use Chooch in a movie if I write a movie or TV show? It's a great character name.

Michael: Absolutely. By all means, please. 

Shaun: I love it. Listen, guys. We have a lot to talk about today. First, I want to go through every one of you. Let's introduce ourselves. Tell us your story. What's your background? Professionally first, and then maybe a little bit about yourselves. Of course, I want to start with Sue Heddle. Sue, tell us who you are.

Sue: Hi. I met both you and Mike recently when I was in Ottawa because I'm a REALTOR® and I won this year's Canadian Real Estate Association Volunteer of the Year. It all started with Hockey Cares, which is-- I always get a little emotional because it's 10 years that we've been going, and also, it's 10 years since we-- We were the first to ever receive grant money from the Downie Wenjak Foundation. That is what catapulted us forward.

Michael: I love that.

Sue: I'm forever grateful. We've been doing this for 10 years. We brought a lot of youth together. Lots of youth playing hockey, getting to know each other. Real relationships have been formed, and it's been great.

Shaun: That's amazing. Hockey Cares, really, is it mostly a regional thing or is it national? Is it going international? Talk to me about the–.

Sue: Shaun, I want it national. I want Hockey Cares national. I want to pair communities across Canada. Right now, we're national because we went to Kugaaruk, Nunavut this year, the furthest we've ever traveled. We went from Ontario, 17 hours north, took two days to get there. Oh, my God, it was amazing. We are looking to do it again this year. We've got tons of friends that we've made. Kugaaruk is amazing. The kids and the communities are still talking to each other.

Shaun: Oh, I love it. Tell me what is Hockey Cares? Hockey Cares, obviously, it sounds like it's a thing where different communities come together through hockey. Tell me more about it.

Sue: Okay. Hockey Cares, we're a reconciliation project under the umbrella of True North Aid. What we do is we bring Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth together. We don't have them come in a tournament against each other. We do skills and drills. We form Team Fire and Team Ice, and then when they're on the bench together, they really get to know each other.

The community from the north will come here first to Oakville. We've done recently in St. Catharines. They come here. They learn post-secondary education opportunities, focusing on the trades. A lot of kids, about 80% drop out of high school. We're trying to think about keeping them involved in post-secondary education and also something that they can do in their own time. Return to the community and have a skill or a trade.

That's a portion when they're here. Of course, we all have a great time. We do three games, and then Team Fire or Team Ice wins. Then we go up there. It's a real mind-blower for the kids who are from the south to, all of a sudden, have to live without access to clean water, who have to live in maybe not adequate housing, and understand how everybody lives up there and how the kids are more- I don't know what to say. They're more steeped in traditional ways.

Then when the kids up north actually get to show, "This is what I do every day. I go fishing. This is what I do every day," they don't understand that what they have is something that they can share and then they're proud of it. It's been a really, really great eye-opening experience for not only myself, but all the youth over the years who've really come back to the program. They've gone through the program and they want to come back and help. It's been ongoing. It's great.

Shaun: It sounds like something like Hockey Cares, on its face, oh, it's hockey, it's communities, it's people playing hockey, Indigenous, non-Indigenous, but that's just a ruse for really digging in deep and connecting people and sharing their stories, is it not?

Sue: 100%. If we're going down the story theme, yes, 100%, because there will be youth that know story from their grandparents or from their elders that then can share it with our youth from the south. They realize that they have something that's very valuable and they can be very proud of that. When before, to them, it was just a common thing.

Shaun: I think we take it for granted. You take it for granted, what you live is what you got, especially in the day of digital portals where we look into another universe through our devices, and we're like, "Whoa, what's out there is so much more than what's right here," but in fact, what you have in front of you has great value. Do you find it harder to shine a light on that value because of the digital world now? I'm talking about remote communities, smaller communities.

Sue: Remote communities are plagued with suicide and that's why we do what we do. Youth see a world that they think exists and some of it does, but a lot of it, as we know, everyone on social media, they're always putting their best foot forward. They're not going to show the bad day that they had. Social media pressures with kids bullying each other, in the olden days, you go home, you close the door, it stops.

When they go home and they turn on their phone-- and especially when you're in a tiny community of 1,000 people, it's like you're living in a big high school. When you go home, the bullying doesn't stop. That's one of the pressures that they're faced. It's one of the things that we strive hard to let them know that we care, we're here, we're a strong backbone to support for them.

Shaun: When you put your phone down, you hit the ice and you're shoulder-to-shoulder on a bench, you connect as a human being.

Sue: I love it when we go up to communities and we're on the land and no one has their phones. They have their camera, but they don't have their phone and access to talking to their parents when we're on a mountain.

Shaun: Mother Nature has a way of connecting people pretty fast. That's great. We're going to come back to that, talk more about Hockey Cares and also Sue, your journey. Let's talk to Michael Linklater. Michael, tell me your story. It sounds like it has taken many different paths and here you are today. Tell me a bit about yourself. You've got a sport background, Indigenous, you're a community leader. Tell me more about your story.

Michael: [Cree language] I greet you as all of my relations and I shake hands with each and every one of you. It's wonderful to see all of you here. My given name is White Wolf and I'm from Thunderchild First Nations and I'm Plains Cree. In the language, I also shared that I don't speak the language fluently, but I'm doing my best to learn from our elders.

A bit of my story is my grandparents were part of the residential school system. My mother was a part of the Sixties Scoop, and I was raised by my great aunt. They really instilled the cultural values of our traditional and inherent way of life. I learned about my spirituality as a young person, and that was something that gave me the foundation to be successful in life and all of those teachings.

Something that I've carried with me throughout my entire life was, in our language, we say, "Miyo-pimâtisiwin." That means living a good life. It's very simple to live a good life. All it takes is kindness to yourself, the conversations you have with yourself, and kindness to others, kindness to your surroundings, and respect, respect for yourself, for others, and your surroundings. The last is love, having love for everything in your environment, including yourself and those around you.

Those teachings have really helped me to get to where I am today. I've been a basketball player. That was the vehicle that helped me travel around the world. I won a national championship for the University of Saskatchewan Huskie Men's Basketball team. I also won a national championship in the Canadian Elite Basketball League. I played professionally on the world tour as well. I represented Team Canada at the FIBA 3x3 World Cup, doing all of this, standing at 5'9", I'll say 5'10", with my shoes on.

Michael: Always from those teachings, being raised by my grandparents, was taught-- you'd refer to it as an old way, and that old way of those teachings before colonialism. That's something I was able to carry with me everywhere I went in life. Very fortunate to have those teachings and to always think about giving back, even when you don't have much.

You mentioned something earlier that reminded me also what my late father taught me was, each and every morning that we wake up before our feet touch the ground, we need to give thanks for the day, because each and every morning, we wake up to see something that was never promised to us. When you were saying we take for granted the things we have, that's so true. It's really important that we start our day off in a good way by giving thanks.

Shaun: When you talk about teachings from your elders, I would imagine there is a sense, in the community, in Indigenous cultures and cultures all over the world, this feeling of the elders as they leave us, that knowledge, it's going to be harder to pass down. I'm curious about that. That's such a beautiful story to hear you say that you got that. You were taught by your elders. Your father was a great teacher, obviously. How important is it to maintain that or try to pass that down, including language?

I think that's a really important part of it as well, obviously. What is your feeling internally about the importance of carrying on those pre-colonial teachings? How difficult is it to do? Are things being done to augment the ability to share those stories and to share that knowledge?

Michael: You touched on something really important, and it's the language. I use the term "elder," to make sense of it for all of you. In our language, we say, "Kêhtê-aya." Kêhtê-aya means wise ones. It has more significance to it because, like you mentioned, when we lose our kêhtê-aya or those wise ones, what is shared with us-- When I say, "By the old people," I've sat in ceremony with the oldest people in the community, and the oldest person sitting in that ceremony will refer to the old people. The old people tell us this. It's always acknowledging those who've come before us.

That language component, like I said, it has more meaning to it than just old people. In today's day and age, when we say, "Old people," it might be used as degrading rather than something that's held with high honour. Again, even in the language, there's prayers and there's a word in our language that the wise ones will pray for, and it's for the day that the hair turns white like snow, so saying, "Hopefully to live a full life." When I heard that, I made a promise to myself that I would never dye my hair because of those teachings from a very, very long time ago.

The old people say, when we lose our wise ones, our knowledge keepers, for us, the theme of this is talking about storytelling. Generations of knowledge exists within these knowledge keepers. When they pass away and they haven't passed on their knowledge, what the old people say is it's like a library burning down and taking all of that information with them. It is extremely important for us as- I'll refer to myself as a young person, but as the next generation for us to attain those stories and those teachings so that we can continue and pass it on to the generations to come.

Shaun: I love that. I think when I say, "The wise ones," there's multiple teachings, I'm sure, the practical teachings of the land and how to live with the land, in unison with the land. What I'm saying is you've got cultures who are from all over the world that can learn so much from these teachings. I feel like the world would in a much different way if those wise ones and those not-so-wise ones heard those stories and learned those teachings.

Michael: Yes, I agree. Again, in the language, it references to all-inclusive, so niwâhkômâkanitik, all of my relations, means the different cultures, the different beliefs. There's so much that we can learn from other communities, other upbringings, from their stories, from their experiences, and even the way they conduct themselves through their practices and the way they've been taught. There's something that we can all learn from one another.

Shaun: That's awesome. We're going to come back because I want to talk about Boys with Braids, and I want to talk about your active participation in the community and what you're doing. Let's go to Mike, Mikey, Mike Downie.

Mike Downie: Hey, Shaun.

Shaun: Tell me about your story. We had the pleasure of meeting at the CREA event as well, and we've met before that as a filmmaker in the community. Tell me about your journey, where you're at right now, and why story has propelled you to where you are in many ways.

Mike: Thanks for having me, Shaun. Fascinating conversation. I'm a documentary filmmaker, and I've been making documentaries for about 30 years on Canadian stories, most recently, a documentary series about The Tragically Hip called No Dress Rehearsal, which, obviously, it's about my brother Gord Downie and his band, The Tragically Hip. A very, very important subject to me.

I was so honoured to have the chance to try to tell that story and to try to understand what it was about this band, these five high school friends, and how they came to really represent something that's really hard to put your finger on, I think, for Canadians, but this idea of who we are. Then on the other side of the mirror, or reflecting that, is to try to figure out why so many Canadians really saw something of themselves in that band. That was just a great honour to be a part of that.

Before that, I've had a chance to make all sorts of documentaries, including an animated film about Chanie Wenjack that Gord Downie and I did along with the Wenjack family. That's 10 years ago now. That is part of a trilogy of three films really about that story of a little boy running away from his residential school in 1966.

Out of Secret Path, again 10 years ago, Gord Downie and the Wenjack family decided to start something that would grow out of Secret Path, which was the Gord Downie, Chanie Wenjack fund, just a reconciliation fund with the aim of bringing Indigenous and non-Indigenous people together to create a better, more equitable country. That's 10 years old as well.

That's definitely the things that have been the most important to me over the last 10 years. I feel so fortunate. I think as Canadians, we don't do a great job of telling our own story. I feel like that could be changing. Maybe it is. Today more than ever, we need to be not only telling our stories to each other, but really believing in them, investing in them, and maybe having a bit more of a quiet confidence about those stories and their merit and value today.

Sue: I just want to mention. 10 years ago when Gord was on the final tour, it was a national wave. I remember driving up to Kingston for his last concert. Unfortunately, I didn't have tickets, but we were going to be at my friend's cottage. All the way up there, every radio station was playing Tragically Hip. It was just this energy. My kids even were getting into it. I felt that again this summer. I felt it coming back. His legacy and the fact that you've been able to maintain it, it's huge. Canada is so grateful for what you've done to keep Gord's spirit alive.

Mike: Wow. Thank you, Sue. I really appreciate that. I wouldn't have it any other way. Thank you very much.

Shaun: I love that. When I think about purpose, it's funny, we don't know necessarily what our purpose is as individuals. It takes a while to figure that stuff out. There's something about all three of you guys having a focused purpose now in your lives. Mike, how much of an impact did A Silent Path have on bridging the gap, which I'm sure-- It's still a big gap. My gut tells me there's still a big gap in understanding what reconciliation is and where we're headed with that. Tell me about the impact that that had on bridging that gap of understanding.

Mike: Secret Path, Shaun, was-- the way that we looked at it at the time was that the story of Chanie Wenjack was a story known by Indigenous people from every part of this country. They have a member of their family, just like Michael, who had been a residential school, who had experienced all this firsthand. When this all started for Gord and I in 2012, we heard the story, we just felt there's got to be a lot of Canadians that don't know the story of a single child going to a residential school. They may not have even heard of residential schools as I hadn't 14 years ago in 2012.

We certainly knew, even before the Hip's final tour, that Gord had the ability to reach a lot of non-Indigenous Canadians. Our idea was just to tell the story of one child. Maybe that could help open people's minds, eyes, and hearts to so many more children who went to residential school and to their families as well. At the time when we were working on The Secret Path, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was ongoing. The final report wouldn't come out for another several years until 2015.

I think that we just felt that if we could just bring some more people into conversation just by hearing the simple story of a 12-year-old child trying to go home to where he's loved, that maybe we could bring more non-Indigenous Canadians into the conversation and maybe make them pause and think a little bit about it. That has happened for many Canadians. There's many more that I would love for them to start walking that path.

For Gord, it was really important. By the time Secret Path came out, Gord had a terminal diagnosis. He didn't know how much time he had left. When you talk about purpose, it's a great example of the purpose, I think, that he felt knowing that he had a limited amount of time left, and that he had reached a lot of people with his music, but he had this one last piece that he really wanted to deliver on, and that was to bring non-Indigenous Canadians into this conversation and to get their attention. It's been a very rewarding experience just to be a part of it, Shaun.

Shaun: That is such a powerful story on both fronts, the actual story of Chanie and also the story of you guys trying to bring it out to the world. I think that's so important. Michael, I'm curious about when you think about your purpose. Have you thought about that? Do you think through the lens of a singular purpose or multiple purposes? I don't know how old you are. You're just out of university, aren't you? 

Michael: Yes.

Shaun: No, but for real, have you thought about that?

Michael: Yes, I thought about it a lot. My purpose is to-- it comes from our teachings. When you visit a place, you need to leave it in better condition than when you arrived. My purpose here for this borrowed time that I'm living on is to make this world a better place before I get called home to the spirit world. It's not a singular. I recognize the opportunities, the privilege and the blessings that I've been gifted. It's, how can I leave those doors open for those who are following behind?

It's not a singular by any means. We operate as a collective. Some of those teachings have been lost, but it's something that has always been with me. It's like when one person wins, we all win when it comes to us as Indigenous people. It's really important that representation matters. The fact that I'm sitting here with all of you is really important because it shows that representation piece. When you take a look at your own personal lives, how many people like me do you see in the circles that you operate on a regular basis? From my experience, it isn't as much as I see others. That representation piece really matters. I think about it as a collective, not as an individual.

Shaun: You seem to have activated community and representation with Boys with Braids. Why don't you tell me about Boys with Braids?

Michael: You see pictures when you google residential school systems. Mike was speaking about it earlier where-- For me, when I grew up, I used to hear the stories because I was raised by survivors. I heard the stories every day. To me, it was just common knowledge, which is what I thought. Everybody knew about it. To me, it was almost the opposite of Mike's story. He had no idea about it, and I knew all about it growing up as a kid. I made the assumption that everybody knew about it because that's how I grew up, and you don't know what you don't know.

Understanding that at a young age, and then recognizing that a lot of people didn't have that understanding or that knowledge was something that was really eye-opening for me. Understanding the history and before the residential school systems, you see those pictures where the first thing that happened to our ancestors when they were forced into the residential school system was they had their hair cut. They were shaved.

For us, when I was talking earlier about our spirits, what I was taught is that our hair is an extension of our spirit, and it comes out in a physical form. It's a living part of our body, and it's taught to be respected.

As a kid, I was always taught to be proud of my culture, who I am and where I come from. I was always taught to respect my hair. The way it was taught to me as a kid and how you teach kids is that your hair is a sacred part of your body, or it's a private part of your body. You're taught to respect it in that manner where, as kids, you teach them about private parts. That is a private part of the body. You don't go up and touch someone's private parts including their hair, because it is something that is very sacred to us.

When I grew up as a kid, I was being teased and bullied for having long hair and just wanting to be proud of who I was. There came a moment where I wanted to cut my hair, and not because I didn't like my hair or I didn't like the teachings and I wasn't proud, but it was because I didn't like the bullying.

Fast forward, I have my own kids. You ask how old I am, I'll be 44 in September. I have four children. My oldest is 22. My next is 19. I have 18-year-old and a 15-year-old. I have two boys, two girls. Both of my boys grew up with long hair. They were coming home from school telling me the same thing that I told my mom, is that I wanted to cut my hair. My mom told me, she said, "Don't cut your hair." She goes, "When you get older, you'll thank me." I said, "Okay." I didn't cut my hair, and I just persevered through that.

When my kids came and told me that, I was like, "I can't believe this is still happening. This is over two decades later, and the same thing is happening." You were all through this process with me as well, but we saw the era of social media when Facebook came along. During that time, I seen a lot of other parents posting about the same struggles that I went through as a kid, but that their kids were currently going through. I decided that something needed to be done. I remember posting and saying, "I'm going to do something about this and not just talk about it."

What I did is taking from our teachings and the way we conduct ourselves or the way we gather, and we talk about storytelling, is when we come together, there's something significant that happens. Before we come together and we have an important gathering, we start off in a good way. In our language, we say, "Ospwâkan," and that's the pipe. We had a pipe ceremony before the first gathering of Boys with Braids.

My belief is that we called back the spirit of the hair. The way I created this gathering was nobody had ownership over it and nobody has ownership over it. Boys with Braids is really a campaign. It's a movement. It's not an organization. It's not a legal entity. Nobody has ownership over it. The first gathering I had, I did it with no money.

There wasn't a title sponsor that could be associated with what it was because the foundation of it was the teachings, to teach the community about the significance of our hair, but to also encourage and inspire these young warriors to continue on their journey- even though it's difficult and the teasing that's happening with them, to continue on their journey, and by bringing in knowledge keepers to share those teachings, but also role models who they can aspire to be like.

Since that happened in 2013, there's been gatherings as far as New Mexico, California, all the way out to Ottawa and everywhere in between. Nobody owns Boys with Braids. To me, the way I visualize it is it's a spirit, and any community can call upon that spirit. We basically have a template of what this gathering can look like, but when you go from community to nation to nation, some of those teachings vary. We give them an outline and they can make it whatever works for their community.

Typically, you see males with shorter hair and you see females with longer hair. Generally, which I know I guess I shouldn't generalize, but women typically have a stronger intuition than men do. That intuition is there innately, but for us, we believe our intuition also comes from our hair because it's an extension of our spirit so it heightens our awareness, which is why, somewhat, can be explained why women have better intuition than males.

Shaun: I love that. It's too true.

Sue: I love it too, and I totally agree. 

Shaun: It's too true. That is so cool. It's happening all over North America, the Boys with Braids?

Michael: There's a gathering in California that's coming up, and it's going to be their 10th annual that they're hosting. What happened was after my first gathering, I believe it was in 2013, there was a gentleman that reached out from Winnipeg. He's like, "I seen this event. Are we able to do it?" I was like, "Absolutely, it's all for you." He brought it online, so he created a bit of a platform for it. Then from there, it just exploded. Then there was a gentleman in California, and he reached out. He's like, "Can we do this?" I was like, "Absolutely." Just shared the template, but said, "Make it what you want, what works for you." I've been invited to various communities to also share this from my own personal experience. It's really wonderful to see.

The other thing, too, is when we go to events, especially adults and kids and parents, even when we're walking in grocery stores and the kids are playing, innately, that's what we do, and it's a part of our experience here, living on this borrowed time as human beings in this form, is to enjoy our time here. When kids are playing, we're like, "Hey, be quiet, settle down."

When we have these gatherings, we have an opportunity for kids who look like one another, that see others with long hair, and they're just allowed like, "Play," because some of them are too young to hear some of the teachings. The teachings are more there for their caregivers to understand how to care for their hair, some of those teachings, so when the time's right, they can pass that knowledge on. The kids, it's just for them to gather and play, to see one another, looking like each other. You see the pride that just glows within them. To me, that's so heartwarming.

Shaun: Mike Downie, you've got short hair. Clearly, you have-

Sue: No intuition.

Shaun: -zero intuition.

Mike: I don't know where this is going. 

Shaun: Of course you don't. Mike Downie, isn't that amazing? What are some of the things that you've learned as a non-Indigenous person by learning the stories, by hearing the stories, that have changed you in some way?

Mike: Listen, I really have a strong feeling about trying to bring non-Indigenous Canadians into conversations just like this. My whole thing is that for reconciliation, which is a really hard idea to explain, or even figure out exactly what it is, but at the Downie Wenjack Fund, we really talk about just encouraging people to start walking that path towards that, towards reconciliation, towards a fuller understanding of Indigenous lives and worldview and everything, language.

One of the things I'd like to add to that is to say, as a non-Indigenous Canadian, you do that for whatever motivates you to do it. Just know that this isn't medicine in our sense of the word. There's something waiting for you. There's something that you're going to learn. We all just did right now, just listening to Michael's story about- I have no idea about the significance of hair. The idea of getting involved in reconciliation is like, do it for yourself, almost. You are going to experience and come to understand such a bigger world around you that we have really had access to for hundreds of years and have simply chosen to ignore this opportunity.

I really do believe that bringing these two solitudes together is so beneficial. I think about some of the things that Michael said just in this conversation. With the context of the sped-up digital world that we live in, and yet so many of these teachings, not only are they relevant today, still relevant, they're probably more relevant than ever. I really feel like the idea of the average Canadian getting involved in reconciliation, it's like there's something there waiting for you. This isn't just about you trying to do the right thing. There is something there waiting for you that will help you continue to evolve as a person and see your life for something much, much more than probably what you're currently experiencing.

Shaun: Yes. I grew up in small-town Newfoundland. I'm a biracial guy. My dad was from India. My mom was from Newfoundland. Newfoundland's relationship with Labrador is a very complicated one as well. The Indigenous people in Labrador, the Inuit people, we hear a story. You hear stories on the news. You get one funnel of a story. Those stories are all perpetuated by corporate non-Indigenous people. You just go, "Oh, that's their story. Then you're like, you have these experiences.

My most powerful experience, I think, in my life to date in terms of shifting a perspective and understanding, just a little glimmer of understanding into their story was when I had the pleasure and privilege, and it was an honour to be a part of the Canada C3 during the Canada 150. It was a ship that went from Toronto all the way outside Newfoundland up through the Northwest Passage down in Victoria. We did Lake Six, and we went from Nain to Iqaluit. My bunkmate was Natan Obed, who is currently the leader of the ITK. I had no idea who he was. Everybody was all in a tizzy about this guy. He looked like-- I'll be honest, when I saw him at the airport, I was like, oh, he's like an Indigenous youth. It was terrible how I was thinking about it, but I was.

I was like, "He's going to be put with the CBC personality, and we're going to hang out." Little did I know who I was going to be bunked with was one of the most spiritually connected, most powerful, intelligent human beings. I became so little in his presence of listening and hearing his story. It shifted my whole understanding by learning the story, the actual stories of resettlement and the church coming. Similar to what you were saying that the residential schools had to cut the hair up there. They weren't allowed to practice throat singing or their traditional dance.

It was just like, "Oh my God, I didn't know any of this. Now that I know it, my brain has completely shifted." Those are my steps on that path. I didn't know I was going on that path, but the one thing I did learn, the most important thing I took from that, was it's not passive; it's an active listening. All you need to do is open up and listen and maybe ask some questions and allow yourself to enter into that by starting the conversations like we're having here.

I don't think a lot of non-Indigenous Canadians think to even make that first move towards saying, "Oh, maybe I don't know." You know what I mean? That's a big thing, I think. People who go, "Oh, wait a minute, maybe I should listen and try to ask more questions." If they talk to Michael or Sue about these stories, it would shift your brain completely.

Michael: I was going to say that you've mentioned something, and I'm sure you've all heard it, but it's something that's been taught in our communities for the longest time. The reason why you have two ears and one mouth is because you should listen twice as much as you speak. That's something you listen, so exactly what you said, right? You just listen. You just listen, and there's a lot you can learn.

Shaun: Oh, yes. Yes, that's important. That's important. Sue, what's it like when we talk about reconciliation? Let's talk about that for a minute. What does reconciliation mean to you? How do you see it-- I wouldn't say practically playing out, but what does it mean to you, reconciliation?

Sue: Reconciliation, well, I call it reconcili-action. I'm actively working towards making connections with people, Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, every day. One of the good friends of mine who's on our board is Plains Cree as well, as you, Michael. I've learned a lot from her. I've learned a lot from the youth. The most important thing is that we are actively working towards something. We are opening our eyes and our ears and listening and seeing what's going on. We cannot correct the past, but as a settler, I feel a weight on my shoulders to actually apologize, officially apologize for what went on.

I cannot change the past, but what I can do is go forward by trying to bring everybody together and understand each other. Hopefully that the stories do not get lost, but it's something that we should never forget, but it's also something that we have to work on every day.

Shaun: Yes. How about you, Mike? Mike Downie, what's your thought on reconciliation?

Mike: What does it mean? To me, I think it means, or the way I choose to be involved with it is to try to encourage as many Canadians as I can to find their own path forward. People ask sometimes through the Downie Wenjack Fund, "What can I do as a non-Indigenous?" I think typically, our response is probably best to stay in your lane. Presumably, you have a job or your children are in school, and find out what is going on where you go every day to improve the lives of Indigenous people in this country and create greater awareness of what those lives are like.

I think it's important for people to find their way forward. There's three steps, something that we talk about at the fund for people that do want to get involved, and it really is-- the three steps make a lot of sense. It's awareness, and then education, and then action. I think it can be a real settler preoccupation to try to get to the action, that you always kind of want to come in with the fix. It's really important to understand and to educate yourself and to figure out how you can be an asset, how you can help.

Typically, I really feel like moving forward, it's going to take millions of us. This is something that has gone on for centuries. There is no quick fix, but the commitment of millions of Canadians right now can make a difference, and all moving in their own singular, but moving towards this idea of a more equitable country, a place that Indigenous people can someday feel proud of.

Shaun: Yes, I think for non-Indigenous people, there's a feeling, obviously. It can be an uncomfortable conversation because, number one, there's, like myself, some of it I don't understand because you're so busy in your own lives, but then there's an uncomfortable conversation to be had. We need to be okay with that feeling of being uncomfortable because that's the way in, because it's not a pretty story when we look back, but it doesn't have to be the only feeling that we have.

Mike, what would you say to non-Indigenous people who are there and want to start those conversations, but they feel terrible? Really, they don't know if they-- I think from that place of feeling terrible, there's a feeling of a defensive mechanism right away, too. It's like, "Well, I wasn't there. I had nothing to do with it. Why should I get involved?" Or, "Yes, I feel terrible, but I don't know why I feel guilty, but I feel like I'm supposed to feel guilty when I don't know why." You know what I mean?

It's a complicated thing for a lot of non-Indigenous people, and some who have immersed themselves really understand it, and then they can speak. As Mike said, there's awareness and education there, but a lot of people, they're so busy in their lives on TikTok doing whatever they're doing, they're not really there. Mike, what would you say to that and how people can shift their perspective or what would you say?

Mike: Well, I think, for starters, guilt and shame are very useful. That's what holds them in that same place. Yes, I think that you need to be active. You need to go through those steps of making yourself more aware of what we're talking about. I guess that's definitely the truth, part of Truth and Reconciliation, that you need to have a greater awareness of what is happening in this country. Then you need to educate yourself. You need to read. You need to watch documentaries. There's more and more material coming from Indigenous producers every day that help tell this story. You need to go on your own journey.

Then the third step, as I mentioned, is then to find your way to take action, to be a part of it. That is, there isn't a prescription for that. That is, you've got your own abilities, your own special powers. You need to go through those steps and then move towards something. Like I said, I think, ideally, you stay in your lane. You find out what is going on, where you work, in your industry. Then you can maybe perhaps find a way to start to move that in a newer direction, in a direction that has more awareness of all sorts of Indigenous suppliers, all sorts of ways that you can shift a business towards something that will benefit, in the end, all of us.

It is a personal journey, Shaun. It really is a personal journey. What I like to think is that there are so many resources. The Downie Wenjack Fund does a really good job on our website and in the outreach that we do to create these resources to get people, to get them in front of non-Indigenous Canadians. They have to take that first step. As I mentioned, the great thing about it is you take that first step, and you keep walking, you are not going to walk alone, and you are walking towards something that is going to be of great benefit to you and your family. You are going to really benefit in this idea of something that is so much bigger. Not so much bigger than you as an individual, but so much bigger than the way that we interpret the world.

Shaun: Oh, great. That's amazing, Mike. Thank you, Mike Downie. Now, Mike Linklater, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the same question.

Michael: I think it's really important what Mike shared in terms of understanding that it is a personal journey. It's really sad to say, but it's the truth that it's actually more impactful when somebody who's non-Indigenous is speaking about what we're speaking about. For far too long, we've been made to feel like second-class citizens in this country. People see us, politically incorrect term, as the angry Indians that are always complaining. That's something that has been indoctrinated into us as Canadians because it's embedded in the very fabric of this country. The reason that none of you understood or were taught about the history was very intentionally because of the way this country was created.

We talk about "reconciliation," and that is a big term that's being used a lot, but the most important part is being missed in that word. You need to use the full term: truth and reconciliation. When we talk about storytelling, when we talk about understanding, when we talk about learning, it starts with truth. How reconciliation came to be was all of the residential school survivors came, and they shared their truth in what happened to them. Listening to the survivors, they said what was the most impactful thing to them is that finally they were believed because for far too long, when they told these stories before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission came about, nobody believed.

That was one of the most impactful things, and now a lot of those survivors have passed on to the spirit world, and so they're not getting a chance to see the legacy that their truth coming forward is going to have for the generations to come. We use the term so freely: reconciliation- what does that mean? I urge and encourage people to use truth and reconciliation because it starts with the truth. Shaun, you mentioned it. It is a truth that these are difficult conversations. Mike mentioned it, that it's so important that this is a personal journey, and when you stay in your lane, you don't have to answer all 94 calls to action.

It's important that you understand where is your industry, what do you do, and how can you make an impact. If you're not public or forward-facing, it's just as simple as understanding the truth and the history. When it comes to, I'll just speak to treaties briefly, is that I know that this past summer in the Mi'kma'ki territory, they just recently acknowledged the Peace and Friendship Treaty that was brought in agreement over 300 years ago. It was just a simple treaty to my understanding of a relationship. For us here in the plains, Treaty Six territory, we just commemorated the signing of Treaty, which was 150 years ago.

Now, understanding what Treaty is it's a mutual agreement. When negotiators from the Crown came to meet with the different nations, they negotiated in terms of walking alongside one another and existing mutually beneficial. Through those agreements, it was agreed that we would live alongside each other, mutually respecting one another. What happened in the signing of Treaty Six in 1876, the same time the Crown, or the federal government, was creating what was called the Indian Act, which is still in existence today.

A lot of people don't know, but up until the amendment to the Indian Act in 1951, it was still illegal for us to gather in more than groups of three. Now think about that. Think about in recent times, six years ago, how everyone was up in arms, that the government was saying you cannot gather with your family during the pandemic, how upset people were. This was law for our ancestors. Not only that, you mentioned in your experience on your trip with the gentleman that was your bunkmate, we weren't allowed to practice ceremony as well. It was illegal. It was also illegal for us to own land, for us to have legal representation.

When you see all of these settlements that are being settled now, it's because the federal government and the Crown have been in the wrong from the beginning. Now, people see Canada, and they don't realize that because of treaty, we have a country because our people were never defeated. It was an agreement that we would live together alongside one another. All of the benefits that Canadians have is because of Treaty. With that treaty, there's something in there in the written agreement that is called the surrender clause.

There's a wonderful book called No Surrender: The Land Remains Indigenous by Sheldon Krasowski. He was a researcher. What he did is he compiled all of these private notes from people who were at the signing of Treaty, from priests, from nuns, from people who are witnesses, taking their journals, their personal notes, as the kids say these days, the receipts. He compiled all of this information, and nowhere was there ever any discussion about a surrender clause.

Sue: Interesting.

Michael: That was added in there. It was talking about all the benefits of what this would be, but they never talked about any of the repercussions. That was something that was, if you will, snuck in there. Now, you know how, no shade to used car salesmen because they get a bad rap, but when you get about like, "Hey, this is going to be a great vehicle for you, all of this and all of that," but they leave out in the fine print that you're on your own as soon as you drive off the lot.

It's similar in that way where our people were taken advantage of. Today, a lot of people don't know the true history. There's a number of books out there, a lot of resources, as Mike mentioned, that Canadians can do. It's just simply understanding the truth because in the media, that is where we are, as Indigenous people, overrepresented in all of the wrong places. That's what media, in general, Canadians see, and they don't understand the history and what we went through, and why you see our relatives on the streets struggling, why you see substance abuse, why you see the incarceration rates, missing murdered Indigenous women, and the list goes on and on and on. It's because of the residential school systems and the intergenerational trauma that has been passed down.

Shaun: Yes. That's why, even talking to Natan about that, it's like for Canada to be a holistic country, a true country, a true whole nation, this piece has got to be heading in that direction. The truth part, the acknowledgement, because that's the other thing too. I don't think we can acknowledge the history sometimes because it's a hard history. It's terrible. It's hard for me to wrap my head around sometimes when I think about human beings treating human beings in that way. I'm an idealist. You know what I mean? I'm as broad-shred; the world is one, we are all human beings living on this planet, and we need each other. However, it's hard for people to wrap their heads around that sometimes.

Michael: It's uncomfortable. Three of you alluded to that earlier. Those conversations are difficult, but they are very important.

Shaun: You got to have them.

Michael: Very important to have.

Shaun: You got to have them.

Michael: Very important.

Shaun Majumder: I found humour is a way through that. On the ship, I swear, we were able to get through some of the most difficult situations by acknowledging the discomfort, but then there was a humourous way to come out of that where we were all laughing. We may not have agreed on certain things, but it was the humour that opened the doors to connection. It was wild. It was like, we need to be okay with finding humour. I don't mean making jokes. I'm talking about we as human beings, humour is very unique to us. We can connect through humour.

Michael Linklater: Laughter is medicine.

Shaun: Laughter is medicine. Sue, tell me about-- this is a podcast that's a real estate podcast. Primarily, this has been one of the best episodes, by the way. I've loved this conversation; so important. As a REALTOR® and thinking about community, give me a little bit about that in terms of your activation as a REALTOR® and how you see that that can be your superpower and being able to engage.

Sue: As a REALTOR®, community is important. Business doesn't drop on your lap. You have to be out there engaging with the community, whether it be doing sports, whether it be through your kids, whether it be through a knitting club, whatever. That's where you get to meet people. The bigger your group, then the bigger access you have to potential clients. I've never gone about real estate in that way. What I did was I founded a group, Hockey Cares, of like-minded people that wanted to do something primarily about youth suicide in the North that people don't like to talk about. It's a tough, tough topic, but it's something that I found unacceptable. I knew I had to do something, and so hockey was the catalyst.

Power of a hockey mom: get stuff done, get people rallied. We found a group of people that wanted to make this happen, and then we connected with Indigenous people. At first, it was Attawapiskat, then it was Constance Lakes First Nation. Now, we've gone to Kugaaruk, Nunavut, but people that want to use hockey to bring us together. It really is like it cuts your tension with a knife because you get kids, put them on a bench, and next thing you know, they were nervous, but now it's like, "Oh my gosh, this is my teammate. I got to support this person. Oh, look, this is a person supporting me," and they become friends, and really get to know each other because they've helped each other during a game.

Shaun: Well, let's get Hockey Cares super nationally, all over the place, every community. I love that.

Sue: Well, it would be wonderful if we could pair communities, so then people grow up together. Like Oakville paired with Attawapiskat, and then everyone from Attawapiskat knows everybody from Oakville. It just keeps growing from there. Then you get to really know someone from another community. You're not guessing how their lifestyle is. You're not guessing about what their perspective is.

Shaun: You've seen it. You've been in it.

Sue: You live it.

Shaun: Yes.

Michael: Sue, when you get a chance, google Maple Creek and Nekaneet, Saskatchewan. Very similar to what you were sharing. They have a community game. Nekaneet is the nation. Maple Creek is right there, like stone throw away. Every year, they have a hockey game, and it's the adults, and it's called Cowboys versus Indians. They dress up, and they're dressed in it. It's just a fun thing. Just what you're saying, it brings those communities together.

Shaun: Oh my God.

Sue Heddle: They're playing against each other?

Michael: They're playing against each other, but it's in fun. It's not in competition. They're dressed up as cowboys, and they're dressed up like olden days. It's just like, Shaun, you mentioned how important laughter is. It's just a time for both communities to come together and just enjoy a fun game for entertainment.

Shaun: I love that. Mike Downie, before we head out, your production company, Courage Films, what stories do you think are the next stories that you're excited about telling, whether it has to do with reconciliation or not? Tell us a bit about your work upcoming as a filmmaker, as a storyteller. What do you got going on?

Mike: I've got a couple of pretty cool projects in development. The one that I'm probably most excited about is next year is the 25th anniversary of the Canadian men's and women's hockey team winning gold in Salt Lake City. It's actually a really complex story that, of course, the men hadn't won in 52 years. The women, which was shocking, but it made sense when I thought back, were only playing in their second Olympics. It was only the second time Salt Lake City was where women were allowed to compete for gold in hockey.

It was a very, yes, great Canadian story. There was so much cross-support between the men's and the women's team. The men, all millionaire hockey players. The women, the first time that they actually had the funding to all come together in probably about four months out from the Olympics, where they were given a stipend, which was not much money, but they were all able to move to Calgary and be a team, not just be showing up from their corner of the country in time for the next game. A very interesting story. That one, I'm doing with Hockey Canada. That'll be coming out next year on the 25th anniversary. Really excited about that.

Shaun: That's sick. That's going to be great. I love it.

Sue: I love it.

Mike: It should be good.

Shaun: Then finally, Mike, tell me about your-- you also have a-- Tell me about Sôhkisiwin.

Michael: Sôhkisiwin Solutions, we are a strategy integration firm. I think it was mentioned earlier where Downie shared it's difficult for Canadians to answer calls to action or wrap their head around it. It's the same for organizations, companies, corporations to answer calls to action. We created a company that helps these companies integrate the calls to action into their corporate structure. Sôhkisiwin Solutions- my business partner and I, we go in and we create frameworks and strategic plans. I think it was mentioned earlier; we work with the organization for them to stay in their lane.

We ask them-- They are a part of the strategy, not us coming in and saying, "This is what you should do, or this is what you have to do." They say, "Okay, well, this is what we want to embody, and this is what speaks to us." Very fortunate to work with CREA, and they're very adamant about truth and reconciliation and answering calls to action.

Shaun: Awesome.

Sue: That's great.

Shaun: People can see that. Is it just sohkisiwinsolutions.com? What is the website? Give us the website.

Michael: Yes. People can check us out, sohkisiwin.com. On our website, you'll see a lot of information and a lot of the organizations that we worked with. If anyone is interested, reach out. It's more than--

Shaun: Tell us--

Michael: Sorry, go ahead.

Shaun: I was going to say, tell us the meaning of the word.

Michael: In Cree, it's a Cree word, and it means strength. We give strong solutions to a lot of these seemingly difficult questions, and we walk alongside organizations to do their part.

Shaun: I love it. Guys, this is such an amazing conversation. I am so thankful to have been a part of it and to bring us all together today. In closing, I just have to ask which hockey team are you guys all rooting for this coming hockey season? It's very important.

Sue: Well, of course, I have to go with the Leafs. I know it's very painful. It's painful.

Shaun: It is. It's a painful relationship. How about you, Mike?

Sue: It is.

Shaun: What about you, Downie?

Mike: It's Boston Bruins all the way, man. All the way.

Shaun: Okay.

Sue Heddle: Oh, no.

Shaun: Maybe you're a basketball follower, Michael, or basketball or hockey. What's your pick? Who's your team this year?

Michael: This might upset all of you, and I apologize in advance.

Sue: Not another US team.

Shaun: No, let's hear it.

Michael: I do not have any team in any sport. What I really like is watching good games. I don't care-

Sue: I like that.

Michael: -who is playing or what. I don't have a loyalty to any team in any different sport. I just love watching a game. Then when it comes down to playoffs, I decide who I want to cheer for based on the story. It's like, "Oh, this person hasn't won a Stanley Cup before, or this team hasn't won in this many years," or et cetera. I just like watching good games.

Shaun: I would say, yes, would I have ever thought that I'd be going for Cape Verde in the World Cup? You know what I mean?

Shaun: That was the story.

Sue: That was great.

Shaun: I was like, go Cape Verde, Cape Verde, all the way.

Sue: We would do the same thing.

Michael: Okay, bandwagon.

Shaun: Guys, this has been a great conversation. I know we have to go because Sue's battery is going to die.

Sue Heddle: I know.

Shaun: Thank you all. This has been amazing. Keep going, keep with the stories. Please, if there's any way, we should all support each other in this journey on this path. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It's been a great chat.

Michael: Thank you.

Sue: Thank you.

Mike: Thank you.

Shaun: That was a little bit different, and I loved it. I loved all of it. I think it's really, really important to have these conversations on all platforms, no matter what your background is. I'm just so thankful to hear their stories and to get some insight and to learn along the way. I thought Michael's point about it not just being about reconciliation, but we can't forget truth and reconciliation.

To support what all of our guests were talking about today is go out there and learn more truth, become educated, share stories with others, hear stories from others. This has been a great catalyst for me. There's a lot of calls to action happening in my mind, and this was a great conversation. I really hope you enjoyed this talk today. If you liked the episode, please tell us by giving us a like or a subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Hope you enjoyed this episode, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

It’s a phrase you may have heard hundreds of times, repeated like a mantra: “location, location, location.” REALTORS® know how much hinges on where a property is situated. It’s part of why their role in the home buying and selling journey is so valuable. They also know how to identify potential, compromise needs vs wants, and stay on budget.

The same goes for location managers in the television and film industry. Rachael Dudley, co-owner of Location Fixer, joins this episode of REAL TIME to talk about the similarities between real estate and location management. She shares a behind-the-scenes look at what makes a location stand out and how the right setting can help shape a story, on and off screen.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: Do you find that you're kind of like a real estate agent for film companies?

Rachael Dudley: Kind of, yes. There is a lot of overlap. We're the keyholders.

Shaun: Okay, so we all know the real estate motto, location, location, location. But did you know that there was a fourth location, and that's film location? Yes. The booming film and TV industry is going bananas in Canada. Have you ever wondered how do they find those locations to shoot exactly where they're shooting? Today, we're going to be talking to Rachael Dudley. She is the owner of Location Fixer, which is an agency that helps productions find these perfect locations. There's so many great stories and so many things that I didn't even know and I work in the film industry, but just like a REALTOR® who helps homeowners find the perfect home, Rachael helps productions find the perfect location. Let's get it going today on REAL TIME with Rachael Dudley. Rachael Dudley of Location Fixer, thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME.

Rachael: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.

Shaun: Right now, you're in Vancouver, British Columbia. No, you're in, where exactly are you located right as we sit here and speak?

Rachael: I'm in Squamish, British Columbia, which is an hour north of Vancouver. It's basically the halfway point between Vancouver and Whistler, the ski resort.

Shaun: Yes. I am currently on the southern tip of Labrador. I think if you were maybe in Tofino somewhere, you would be the furthest west and I could be the furthest east, humanly possible, on the land that is known as North America. Here we are.

Rachael: We should have done that this morning. I could have gone over there.

Shaun: You could have popped over. It's nothing. It's easy to get here. I am so excited to talk to you. We're in such different locations and I love using the word location because that's what you do for a living. You're a location fixer. I love this and I want to know more. I think this is the first time that I've had a conversation with somebody on this podcast where I'm also of your industry. As an actor and as now a writer and creator, I'm so stoked, but I'm very young at it in many ways in terms of the being involved in production and trying to pick locations.

There's totally a hybridization. There's totally a cross-pollination between what you do and the real estate world. It crosses up in your world probably a lot. I'm excited to talk about that and talk about how your relationship with you having to work with REALTORS® and property managers and house owners and condo owners and all that. First of all, let's talk about what exactly is it that you do?

Rachael: Okay, great question. Because the term fixer actually isn't used that widely in North America. I think it's more of a European term. Both myself and my business partner are from the UK. Although we met here in Canada on a film set, we're both originally from England. That's why the name fixer made it into the title of our production company. Essentially, we provide location management services to a whole portfolio of locations, mostly in British Columbia. We have recently expanded to Calgary, Alberta, too. That's exciting.

We're like a conduit between the film production or the TV production and the location owner. We essentially, we take the stress out of the whole process of facilitating and organizing a film shoot on location. We're the people who are available 24-7 to contact. We're the people doing the scouts, the surveys. We're also the people that are there on the day when they're prepping the location, which can be days to months depending on the location. We're there during the shoot. We're overseeing the film shoot when you have 150 to 200 people essentially invading a location. It can feel a little bit like that. Then we see it through to the last day of wrap and ensure that they return everything how they found it, if not better, is our philosophy. Leave no trace. Try and make a positive impact on a location so that the location owner welcomes filming back in the future.

Then any follow-up that's required after a production is wrapped, like any minor damage that needs to be repaired, billing, invoicing, stuff like that. We really do facilitate the whole thing from start to finish, from the initial inquiry to the very, very end when we sign off the location and say, you guys are all good. We'll see you next time.

Shaun: You're working with a director, with the creative side, but you're also working with the people who are on those locations. Now, to be clear, these locations that you specifically deal with, it's not like you're looking for a dark forest for a production like The Revenant.

Rachael: Yes. Our portfolio has just grown and grown in the 15-plus years that we've been doing this. We find gaps that the people are looking for in certain areas. Our portfolio is organized into categories. We have a residential category, industrial, commercial, outdoor spaces. I would say our emphasis is on industrial, commercial spaces. Then we also, for example, represent the Vancouver Art Gallery. They've been one of our longstanding clients almost from the beginning, from day one. We represent cultural locations as well. It's kind of full spectrum, but I would say our niche is probably industrial, commercial spaces.

Shaun: That would be factories, warehouses, office buildings, that kind of thing?

Rachael: Yes, exactly. Lobbies are really popular in commercial buildings, outside, inside. Coming out of elevators, walking through revolving doors, walking out onto the street, those kind of scenes, walk and talk scenes. Then, yes, like you mentioned, empty warehouse spaces. Super popular, super in demand because they can have full reign in a space like that. They're not restricted by availability or other groups using the spaces. It's a space that they can just use to themselves. Often, they'll build sets in spaces like that, and then they'll come back and film it time and time again.

Shaun: That's awesome. I guess there are similarities here in that with a real estate agent, with a client, there's lots of conversation about, what are you looking for? Here's what we have. Let's go have a look at the place. Do you find that you're kind of like a real estate agent for film companies?

Rachael: Kind of, yes. There is a lot of overlap. We're the key holders. We're the first point of contact. We're the people giving them access to the building to tour it initially. Then we have to really get to know the location inside and out as though we're the location owner, really, because we're the eyes and ears of the location owner. For example, YVR Airport, Vancouver Airport, is one of our clients. We've really had to get to know the airport from a completely different perspective to somebody just going to the airport and taking a flight. Now, whenever I do go to the airport and take a flight, I see it through a completely different lens.

I think that's what keeps this job really exciting and interesting to us, and why we've been doing it as long as we've been doing it, because each location in our portfolio is so different. We have an art gallery, an airport, a warehouse, an office building, and each one has its own quirks and different things to know about.

Shaun: Yes, like I would imagine at YVR, there's the airport, but an airport is massive. If you've walked through YVR, by the way, my favorite airport in North America, no question, hands down, the most beautiful one. You have, but you've got little pockets within the airport, because if you're talking about film production, there's a lens that's like this, it's framing only this, and it's specific to a scene, like you were hit it on the head. when you're saying like someone who exits the building walking through a revolving door, if someone is chasing somebody down the sidewalk and they have to run into a door or inside of a building, like that frame within that door, that door has to be very specific, right?

Within the YVR world, like I'm just seeing you walk through the airport as a traveler, you're like, "Oh my God, that's that new storefront," or "Oh my God, I didn't really notice the way that screening baggage handling area is." Are you seeing things through frames now versus broad strokes? Or just like, "Oh, it is an airport."

Rachael: Yes, I think so, for sure. Like, "Oh, look, this area has really great natural lighting," or "Oh, look, there's a really convenient electrical outlet." Yes, you do see things differently. I know it's funny because people that work in film, you often hear them say that they can't watch a film without just enjoying it anymore. Because they're constantly thinking, "Oh, look at--" they're thinking through the mind of somebody that works in film. I have to say, I don't have that issue. I can sit down and watch a TV show or a feature film and enjoy it as a regular person.

Sure, I'm spotting locations. I guess that's my lens. I'm like, "I recognize that place. I recognize that place. Oh, I wonder where that is." When I watched the latest Dune film, I was so curious about where they shot that film. Yes, it was just incredible. I think they shot it in four or five different countries. I guess I take a real interest in the location side of things when I'm watching a film, but it doesn't ruin my viewing experience at all.

Shaun: You are a specialist. I bet your brain is able to separate the two. It might be a micro moment where you see a background, and yes, they're having the most intense conversation that is pivotal to the story. You're like, "That is, I think, the back of Salt Creek. That's Salt Creek." Then you're back into it. You still know it. You're still loving it, but it's like another chamber in the brain.

Rachael: Yes. As soon as the credits start rolling, you're googling where things were filmed.

Shaun: Absolutely. I remember Severance, for example. I'm from Newfoundland. Everybody said, "Oh, Ben Stiller, they went up there to shoot in Newfoundland." I cannot tell you, when I watched that film, there was maybe one drone shot that I remember thinking like, "That's definitely Newfoundland." It was so oddly apocalyptic looking that they were able to shoot it in a way where it obviously didn't scream Newfoundland, but they were there.

Rachael: It often doesn't. This is the crazy, crazy thing about Vancouver, is it hardly ever plays as Vancouver in shows. It's New York. It's Seattle. It's San Francisco. It's LA. It's even been Tokyo and Moscow. I think it's like this chameleon architecture that can play as so many different places. I think that's partly why Vancouver is considered the Hollywood North because it just has so many different looks.

Shaun: So many. Yes.

Rachael: Yes.

Shaun: What's the process? I'm a potential home buyer. I sit with my agent and we go over what it is we're looking for. We look at our price points. We talk about what is the schools in the area. What happens in that process where, how does a production, do you go to the production? Does the production go to you? Take me through the process of the initiation and then how you come to the conclusion.

Rachael: Yes. Okay. It's a little bit of both because we have obviously our contacts in the film industry and we send updates when we get new locations in our portfolio. When things change with our portfolio, we're letting people know. We're like, "Hey, we've got this great new location." We're definitely planting seeds just as general broad strokes like, "Hey, this is our portfolio right now." They can search our website as a database for locations. When it comes to a specific project, typically the location scout will be the first person to reach out to us. In many ways, we're an extension of them. We're a continuation of the locations department. We work so closely with them. We're just not technically on their crew, but we work so closely with them.

The first person to reach out to us will be the scout. They'll usually say something along the lines of, "Hey, we need to shoot in a medical facility, but it has to be on a weekday. We cannot shoot on a weekend or an evening. Do you guys have something that will work for us?" Right off the bat, that's kind of tricky because how do you find a medical facility that you can film in during the day? That's where our work begins. We're like, "Okay, let's try and find them a location that fits this brief." We have over 50 locations in our portfolio. Nine times out of 10, we do have something that will work for them.

For example, we have a medical training facility. It's not an active hospital. That would be what we would put forward for that brief. It's like, "Hey, you can get in here during the week as long as there's not training going on. These are the pictures. Let us know if you want to come and scout." Then the next--

Shaun: Sorry, Rachael. You say brief. Tell me what a brief is.

Rachael: The location scout has talked through the treatment, the director treatment. The director has the vision, the creative vision for a project. They pass that information on to the locations team. Then the location scout goes out and finds these places. Depending on the experience of the scout, if they've been doing it a really long time, they'll probably have a whole back catalog of locations that they're sifting through. They already have pictures. They already have contact information.

Then they also use websites like ours to look for possibilities. They'll reach out to Creative BC, which is the BC Film Commission, and they have a library that location scouts can look through also. The director will have the creative vision. Then it is similar to real estate scouting, I think, because it makes me think of a couple that's going to look at a house. You've usually got one that has the creative, almost romanticized idea of what they want their location to be. Then you have the other partner in the couple that's like, "That's out of our budget. We can't afford it."

Shaun: Practical.

Rachael: "This is too far. This is not going to work for X, Y, and Z."

Shaun: "No, but it'll be great. We can put a pool in this movie. We can add a hot tub to the movie." "No, honey, slow down."

Rachael: Yes. It's exactly the same in film because you have two halves of the production. You have the creative side, the director, the location manager, potentially the scout. Then you have the logistical side, the producer, the production manager, the location manager, who are all very conscious of the budget and the practicalities of the film shoot. You hope that they align, but sometimes there's some push and pull with that process, for sure.

Shaun: I bet. Then you basically take the brief, you break down the brief, they go through their catalog, whether it's on your website or their-- are they looking at potentially other people like you guys? Are there multiple organizations and location-focused agencies or property manager-type people?

Rachael: Yes. Essentially, we are an agency. There's about five other companies in BC that do what we do. We don't really deal with each other all that often. We do when there's social networking nights and things, but we generally have a different niche. Like I was referring to earlier, we do a lot of commercial and industrial spaces and cultural spaces. There's another company that does a lot of outdoor spaces and parks. There's another company that does lots of residential, like high-end luxury residential. There's a little bit of crossover, and that's fine.

Shaun: It's probably a Venn diagram there.

Rachael: Competition is fine. We all coexist out there in the world, and we're all dealing with the same location scouts and location teams.

Shaun: What is probably, I know it's a broad question, but what is the first thing you look for in a location to really determine if it fits the vibe you're trying to achieve?

Rachael: I think the number one thing is aesthetic. Does it match the general aesthetic of the production? That's the most important thing. Then secondary is when you get into the logistics. Is it well located geographically? Is it within close enough proximity to the studio where the production's doing a lot of studio shooting? Because they'll often have this central studio hub, and then they go out to the locations to get what they need on location, and it supplements the studio work. Not always. Sometimes productions are really location-heavy, and they barely have any studio staff. It just depends on the show.

Number one, aesthetic. Number two probably is geographical location. Number three is can we make this work logistically? That's when the location manager and the production manager get talking, and it's a reality check. You might find this fabulous location that ticks all the boxes aesthetically, but they might say, "Oh, you can only film on Sundays," and they're planning to do three weeks of work there. Then it's like, "Okay, well, that's not going to work."

Shaun: Not practical.

Rachael: "We got to move on." The practical side of it is really important. Essentially, if they can't get what they want aesthetically, then they would consider building it from scratch. They would build a set.

Shaun: Do you help them find land, like a plot of land at all, or no? You don't have lots for future building. That's interesting.

Rachael: There's some go-to back lots that are used a lot. We actually have one fairly close to here in Britannia Bay that's like The Last of Us built the town or village set there. They were there every day for months filming there. It was probably like 80% of the production was filmed there. Then they would go out and do some location stuff elsewhere. There's definitely the go-to back lots that the production use over and over again. Sometimes they get developed into buildings, and they're no longer available again for productions to use, and they have to go find another one.

We don't represent any back lots. We have some similar bigger outdoor spaces that could potentially be used as back lots, or parking, or storage. A big part of our business is also parking and storage bookings, not just filming.

Shaun: Yes. Because you've got to set up what they call base camps and stuff like that, where people are going to be putting all the trailers and all the fancy things, the food and all that, for people who are off-site.

Rachael: They call it the circus, which I think is very accurate. Yes.

Shaun: Aptly named. It's aptly named.

Rachael: …come into town. Yes.

Shaun: Do you keep a list of locations that maybe don't work for this production? How do you build up your quiver, if you will? How do you build up that list? It may not have been perfect for this, but all of a sudden, because you entertained it, maybe you didn't entertain it before, and now it's like, definitely for a smaller production, could work, or a bigger production, could work.

Rachael: Yes. For us, as an agent, we have our front-facing portfolio, but we also have locations in our back pocket that maybe don't make it to the website, but we're like, "That might be good for someone. We should keep their information." Then for the scouts that have been doing it for years, their portfolio is probably even bigger than ours, and they have all the relevant photos, contact information, and then they might have some other ones that they don't have as much information for, but they have scouted it previously and thought, "That's going to be good for something one day. This has a lot of potential. I'm going to keep that on file."

Shaun: 15 years you guys have been at it, but I wonder, because you want to build this reputation, and I'm hearing back pocket, and I'm hearing, "You guys, seriously, you got to talk to Rach. Rach is-- I know-- you look on her website. Don't let the website do the talking. Talk to Rach because she's got some stuff that will blow your mind." You know what I mean? You got to build up that kind of demand because they got their fingers in some stuff. If I'm in production, I'm like, "Oh, yes, I want that." You know what I mean? Do you have that kind of vibe, or are you trying to build up that--

Rachael: We do. Yes, we do. Because some of our location clients are developers and real estate companies. They may have only reached out to us about one or two locations in their portfolio that they think would be attractive to the film industry. When we dig a little bit deeper, we can see that they have this whole portfolio of other locations. Maybe a production will approach us, and it's not something we currently represent, but we know that one of our clients has something in that wheelhouse that could be of interest. In that scenario, we would reach out to the location client and say, "Hey, would you consider bringing this location online for filming? We think there's demand for it. We've been contacted by a big show. This is what they want to do. What's the scope to bring this one online?" Then they'll either say yes or no or something in between, and we'll discuss it, and then we'll go and photograph it, hopefully, and list it. Yes.

Shaun: What has been the strangest request for a location you've ever had?

Rachael: God, that's a good question. The strangest request.

Shaun: Strangest or one where you pause just like you did now, where you're like, "Hmm. I don't know if we have a monkey cage, laser-filled monkey cage. That's a tough one to find. Let me ask around." You must have gotten some.

Rachael: I do remember a production contacting us. I forget which production it was, but they needed a space big enough to basically put in a giant fish tank for the scene. I was like, "What is this scene going to be?" I think what it was is because they needed to get the perspective of the people underwater. In a regular swimming pool, it's a little tricky to get. Maybe the scene was that they were in a tank. I actually can't remember fully. Yes. Every request is weird and wonderful in its own way.

Or we'll get a request for creepy tunnels. They want really, really creepy basement tunnel vibes. Then we dig deep into our portfolio because we might not necessarily have those front and center on the website. Again, we have it in the elusive back pocket.

Shaun: Do you read the scripts? Do you read all the scripts or do you just work with the scouts?

Rachael: Sometimes. Generally not, but it depends on the location because some of the locations have script restrictions. For example, we represent a couple of churches and there's certain things within scripts that they do not want to be filmed in the church, understandably. In that scenario, we are required by the location to read the script and vet it and let them know what the scene involves. The production is also forthcoming with that information when we ask them for it. Some locations are more sensitive that way with the script content.

From a production side of things, we're not really reading the scripts. We're looking at storyboards. They'll often provide storyboards and visual mood boards so that we can get a sense of what they're looking for.

Shaun: That's cool.

Rachael: It's really helpful.

Shaun: Yes. In real estate, you don't really have that as much. The agent doesn't really, unless they-- you probably do that with AI now, I could say to AI, "Create a script of me and my partner's lives over the last four years, and I'll tell you a quick story. Make a script, and then give it to my agents so they know everything that we hate and like about each other." You know what I mean? AI could do that in two seconds, and then boom, you have a script. Then your house hunt is going to go much better because you're going to know, this location won't work for him. I just know it, it will not. I guess that's all about building-- the way it is with REALTORS® and their clients and also the community is so much of it is about building relationships. You're probably always doing that.

Rachael: Just to go back to your previous comment, with the way technology is evolving, I think the way that production scout is potentially changing. Not necessarily with AI, although I'm sure that that will play a part. For example, I worked with a commercial production recently here in Squamish where I live. I said to the location manager, "How did you find this place?" I'm always interested. Because it wasn't a location that was in our portfolio. He said, "Well, this was a bit of a weird one. The director went on Google Maps and essentially just put it on satellite view and just zoomed in on this particular street" because there's a very famous mountain backdrop there, the Chief in Squamish, the Stawamus Chief.

He knew that he wanted a house that was right in front of the wall of the mountain. And so they literally picked it through Google Maps. I hadn't heard of anyone finding a location that way before. Usually, they're door- knocking. Essentially, they honed it down to that one house and that was the house they ended up filming at.

Shaun: No way. You had to bridge-- was this a house-- the owners, did they ever work in this film industry before? How did they receive it?

Rachael: They'd never had filming before. They were super up for it, very friendly. I'm sure that now that they've had one shoot-- this is also what happens a lot, is that once you have one shoot through the doors, then the word gets out to other people and other location managers. Then they end up becoming a more popular film location. Not always, but that often is the way it goes.

Shaun: Right. Oh, I love that. I love that. Have you ever had any favorites? Do you have favorite kinds of locations? How much of your own personal taste comes into it? How much creativity are you allowed to bring, or do you choose to bring with you and your team? Because they may not know they're coming from Morocco somewhere, or England, or another country, they want to shoot in Canada. How do they make that decision, and how much creative input do you have?

Rachael: Yes, that's a great question. I think for the out-of-town productions that don't know this area, I think we have a lot more creative input because they're literally starting from zero. Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have the productions that shoot here time and time again, or the production crew that come here time and time again. They just hop from production to production. They're so familiar with the locations market that they literally come to us and they know exactly what they don't want to do, exactly where they want to shoot.

So it really does depend on the type of production and the size of the production. Some of these productions have 10 people on their locations team. They have multiple scouts, they have two location managers, and then each location manager has their own team working under them. What they often do is they alternate episodes. There's an even episode location team and an odd episode locations team, and then they just alternate.

Shaun: That's a big production, yes.

Rachael: Because it's just too much for one locations team to cover with all the permits and the logistics and the contracts and the payments and the insurance. There's a lot of paperwork that goes into each location booking. We're only dealing with one production at our location. Then you think, "Okay, well, they're also simultaneously dealing with probably at least 10 other locations and going through the same process with them." So we're happy to be involved more creatively, and I think the location managers that know us the best are more likely to ask us for that input.

Shaun: Right. Again, building relationships. Being able to open up those channels and flow of conversation, and people get to know who knows what, who is more expert at certain vibes, certain looks, certain locations. That's amazing. You guys feel really good about where you're at, obviously. Is there a community of location agencies? Is community a big part of what you do?

Rachael: Yes. I would really describe the film industry here as the film community. It really does feel like that. It's a big industry, and at the same time, it's a small industry in terms of the people that work on these productions are the same people over and over again. They have their people that they work with, and then they move to different productions together.

I think we have maybe 200, 250-ish locations' contacts in our contact list. Those are the people that we're dealing with day in, day out. Or you might not hear from somebody for-- this is the other side of it, you might not actually hear from somebody for years because they're on a historical period TV show. We don't have any locations in that wheelhouse, so we're just not dealing with them for a long time. Then the next show they're on is like a sci-fi, and then all of a sudden they're coming to us because we have some futuristic-style buildings that could work for them.

Shaun: Tell me about when I'm a client and I'm as a home buyer, there's very specific details within a house. There's always this talk of what's trending and what isn't trending. You're not necessarily needing to have your finger on the pulse of what is trending in real estate, but are there similar trends in shows that people are making, films that people are making? All of a sudden, it goes, like you said, it goes from, oh, single-family homes that are 80s-style homes are in, or mid-century, or there's so many different styles that are happening. How has it changed over the last 10 years, let's say?

Rachael: We definitely have to keep our finger on the pulse with the changing trends. For example, when I first started out in this industry here in BC, it was all sci-fi. It was Battlestar Galactica and shows like that. They were looking for futuristic-style buildings, clean lines, high ceilings, things where they could build their control centers and that kind of thing. Then we moved into the superhero era. I would say five years ago, we had Arrow, we had Batwoman, Supergirl, all the superhero shows. They were looking for completely different things like high-rises and downtown city vibe locations.

Then more recently, we've moved into the gaming-turned-film era. We have The Last of Us. There's another one that's just gone into production, which I can't name, but it's along the same vein. What they're looking for, again, is completely different. They basically want these kind of desolate, decaying, potentially, not always, but kind of, yes, desolate, remote landscapes, and also they want to make the city locations look decaying and overgrown. It's like apocalyptic-style shows now. Everyone loves the apocalyptic shows right now.

Shaun: Love it. Love it.

Rachael: And so then we're going to our high-end commercial property management clients and saying, "Hey, they want to shoot your location, but they want to cover it in ivy and decaying--"

Shaun: Mold. Black mold.

Rachael: Yes, that's cool, right? They're like, "Oh, man." They're like, "We won't be identified. You're not going to identify our building in this, are you?" We're like, "No, not by name. But by look, probably." It's inevitable if people are local. To answer your question, the trends are always changing, and we really have to stand up to that.

Shaun: You do have to be on it.

Rachael: You do. Not all of our locations have to be shiny and nice. It's good to have the grungy ones. It really is because you just don't know when someone's going to need that.

Shaun: What are those owners like?

Rachael: Often, it's developers. It's a location that's set for demolition at some point, but it's this great interim use and revenue generator for the location. It's a real win-win for everybody involved. The productions are like, "Yes, we got to use it before it got torn down," and it probably feels good.

Shaun: Talk to me about budget. Budgets are interesting. With you, you obviously want to bring options that fit the budget, but what are some tips that you might use to try to keep people within budget, productions who are looking for properties? Are their eyes just too big for their stomach? What do you do with those people? How do you keep them reined in to make sure that they sign the deal with you guys versus going somewhere else?

Rachael: The other thing to consider is that the locations' budget is one tiny drop in the ocean of the total budget that the production has on crew, equipment, rentals. The line producer is really like the financial architect for the whole production. There's all these hidden costs that you don't even-- we don't have hidden costs, but just general hidden costs that they have to keep in consideration. Sometimes when they come back to us and they say, "Oh, this isn't going to work because of budget," it's not always because the location fee is too high for them. That's not necessarily what they mean.

It's just all the other things. Oh, it means they have to get the crew too far away from the studio that day, and they just can't justify everyone's travel time, or the actor isn't available that day. There's just so many different variables.

Shaun: So many moving pieces, yes.

Rachael: So many moving pieces. For us, quite commonly with our locations in our portfolios, we have a sliding scale system. So it's not one-size-fits-all for every production budget. We know that the bigger productions, usually the feature films and the really large TV shows, have bigger budgets than the TV commercials and the photo shoots. It's not really fair to charge the small photo shoot productions the same as the giant feature film productions. We don't have that system at all of our locations, but it's something that we've tried to introduce with as many of them as we can just to appeal to as many different budgets as possible.

Then you're not ruling out the smaller shows just because they don't have the budget for it, which is really not our intention. We want to try and encourage all different scopes and sizes of film productions to come.

Shaun: See, that's good to know because I always wondered about, it's like, "No, no, don't talk to Rachel. She's way out of your league, bro. She's way out. You can't work. Her location's too much, too much. You can't even deal with it."

Rachael: Some of them probably, some of the locations might be out of budget for some productions.

Shaun: Sure. Yes.

Rachael: It's a range. It's a big range. Yes, a big scale.

Shaun: Now, I'm sure there's tons of different opinions when it comes down to the final decision. How do you manage all of the different stakeholders? Is that something that you feel you have to be involved in? You're selling, obviously. You're like, "No, trust me, this would be-- I've worked with these people before. The location is way better for X, Y, and Z. They have an outlet. They have an electrical outlet. One in the corner. Trust me, you want to do that." How do you deal with all these different opinions?

Rachael: I would say we're out of the loop on that process for the most part. It's like, "Okay, we've done our piece. It's back to you. Have some discussions internally and let us know if you want to move forward with this location." However, when they're coming to do scouts and surveys, it's all the heads of departments that are coming to the site and we're interacting with them. If we are doing our best to accommodate their needs and requirements and just generally be flexible, kind, friendly humans, I think they're more likely to consider that location.

It becomes a film-friendly location in their mind. They're like, "Okay, we're dealing with good people here. The process is somewhat seamless, and also these people are going to help us figure a lot of this stuff out."

Shaun: Yes, that's good, though. It's not on you. You don't have to insert--

Rachael: It's not on us.

Shaun: Yes. You do yield some power. You have some power because you can make a house super famous. I'm sure you've done that or you've been working on productions where they keep shooting that one location as the central house, like in Home Alone, there was the Home Alone house. Do you have any properties like that you've, unknowingly, when you agreed to that location or worked in that location, that it became iconic? What are the most iconic places you've had to work with?

Rachael: Yes, I used to work out at Riverview Hospital, which is a former mental health facility that's mostly closed down now. Within one of the main buildings, they have an apartment set. It's a fairly basic apartment set, nothing too fancy about it.

Shaun: What does it look like? What's an apartment set?

Rachael: It doesn't even have the furniture. It's just the bare bones. It has a faux brick wall. It has some windows. It has the dividing walls to separate the rooms. It has a kitchen, a living area, a bedroom, a bathroom, but it doesn't have the furniture. The productions would always bring that in themselves. It was originally built by the film ALF in, what was that, the '80s or the '90s?

Shaun: '90s.

Rachael: Long, long time ago. It's still standing. It still exists within this building just outside of Vancouver. I kid you not, so many productions film that apartment. It's been in so many productions. The way they make it different is they'll do a different window treatment. They'll use curtains instead of blinds, or they'll use blinds instead of curtains, and they'll have a different aesthetic couch, and they'll have a different lamp. They'll paint the walls a different color, or they'll add wallpaper. They'll just make these changes that are really not that significant. It's still the same bones.

Shaun: There's a trivia right there. That'd be such a cool trivia question. Which apartment in the movie blah, blah, blah was the same apartment in the movie ALF? What movies had that same apartment? What TV shows?

Rachael: I think there was a remake of-- there was another Exorcist film that came out a few years ago. I'm pretty sure they filmed in there. Yes, I wish I had a list. Did you find your lighthouse the other day?

Shaun: Yes. I'm now waiting for the military to get back to us because we found out it's an active radar station. It's one of those things where-- we were like, "This is it, 100%, lock and load." My producer is currently waiting to hear back from DND and also the Canadian Coast Guard to see about using it. I'm also like, as a director, the scenes, it totally works if we can't get into the lighthouse. It's like, we could shoot around the lighthouse and shoot on that area. There's actually these weird burnt-out bunkers that are next to it. Anyway, yes, I found it, but now we're waiting to hear. We'll see.

Rachael: That's exactly what we were talking about earlier, where you might find that exact location that ticks all the boxes, but then there's other challenges, the reality check.

Shaun: Exactly. And so you can't get married to something until it's going to happen. I know you've got to keep an open mind up until it's finally done.

Rachael: I guess it's exactly the same in real estate too. Until that sale is complete, nothing is certain. Anything can fall through.

Shaun: Exactly. How many heartbreaks have happened because you fall in love with a place and then something happened, the inspection goes bad, or the price jumps. That almost happened to us once. We sold our house. Oh, no, we bought a house and sold the house at the same time. The purchase of the new house was contingent on the sale of the house that I was selling. Then we bought the house. Everything went through. Then the inspection happened. They found some water damage. They were like, "Nope, we won't do it unless you--" then everything went upside down for a second. It all worked out in the end, but keep an open mind until the very end.

Rachael: Sometimes we get productions that come to us because a location has fallen through at the last minute, and suddenly they're needing a replacement for two days later or the next day. They're like, "Please help us. Our location has fallen through, and we need a new location. Can you turn this around for us in time? We'll do everything we can to make it happen for them." We're a team of people, so we can be really on top of that stuff.

Shaun: Is that common where a production is dialed in, then all of a sudden a production location drops out, and then they have to find a new place like yesterday? Does that happen a lot?

Rachael: I wouldn't say it happens a lot, thankfully, but it does happen. When it does happen, it's really challenging. They have all their ducks in a row. Sometimes they've even printed, they've finalized the call sheet, 8.30 tomorrow, this is where everyone's going to be. Then all of a sudden, that's not where everyone's going to be. It really does throw a spanner in the works, but these location teams are very, very pro. Then we're like an extension of that team. And so we'll partner with them to do whatever we can to make something else work for them within--

Shaun: Yes, and they have to be understanding of, now we're shopping at a different store all of a sudden, inventory--

Rachael: They're usually very, very thankful if we can pull it off. We'll try our best.

Shaun: Yes. It sounds like you guys are dialed in and pros across the board. It's so good. I'm so happy you chose Canada. Isn't it true that a lot of these productions, too, not only are they choosing locations, but going way back at the $100,000 level perspective, they're also, well before that, they're choosing a country, right? They're not just "What city--" but how does that whole process work?

Rachael: Some of these big productions, the film productions in particular, they will consider multiple countries, and then they'll hone in on one. They'll just send a couple of key personnel. They'll fly them out to each country. They usually meet with the BC Film Commission, somebody from their team, and they'll tour some of the landmark locations in and around Vancouver. They would have read the script or at least read the director treatment, so they know the kind of locations that they're looking for, and then they can put forward the best picks.

Sometimes they'll involve us in those scouts if it's at our locations, and we just get to showcase the best bits of what BC can offer. Yes, you definitely have your saleswoman or salesman hat on when you're doing that bit. "Come and film here. Everyone's really great."

Shaun: Thank you so much for sharing all these incredible stories and perspective.

Rachael: My pleasure.

Shaun: I do see the hybrid between REALTORS®, home buying, the commercial real estate, all the real estate that you can imagine. You're in it in many ways. More mentally, I think, than actually financially, but it is interesting to see the hybrid, and it was a great chat. Thank you so much, Rachel, for hanging out with us today.

Rachael: My pleasure. Thanks so much for chatting with me this morning. I can talk about this forever.

Shaun: Yes, I know, and I love it. Me too, especially on the storytelling stuff. I'm stoked about the future of Canadian storytelling. I am.

Rachael: Yes, me too. Yes.

Shaun: Awesome, Rachael. Thank you so much.

Rachael: Thank you.

Shaun: What a great conversation with Rachael. Look, even me, working in the film industry, I learned a whole lot today, and that was so insightful. That ALF thing. I'm going to be watching every movie now going, "Was that the same apartment in ALF?" How many people are going to be doing that? I bet you will be. It would make for great trivia. Anyway, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Please go out there, like and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA Production, brought to you by Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

With more than 600 million visits and roughly 120 million unique visitors each year, REALTOR.ca is Canada’s No.1 real estate platform*. It’s a trusted, professionally-backed marketplace where Canadians can search for homes with confidence. For REALTORS®, it’s one of the most powerful tools available to support their businesses, connecting them with motivated home buyers, sellers and renters, and generating valuable leads. Now that REALTOR.ca has transitioned to a separate for-profit entity, still wholly-owned by CREA, what does the future hold for the platform, REALTORS®, and the home buying journey?

In his very first podcast appearance as REALTOR.ca CEO, Scott Neil joins this episode of REAL TIME to talk about the importance of putting the consumer first, why it’s crucial to keep innovating in the proptech space, and why REALTOR.ca is well-positioned to stay ahead of the game.

*Based on market share. ComScore, 2025

Transcript

Scott Neil: We're the only professionally backed real estate marketplace in Canada. Our mission is to help Canadians make confident housing decisions.

Shaun Majumder: I just learned a new term, PropTech. As an actor on film and TV, sometimes I would assume that that means a little robot is going to come and bring you your props, your wallet, your pen and paper, the money. No, that's not the case. "Property tech," it's this new hype word, and it's everywhere right now. People are looking for the latest technology to research, to manage, to buy and sell properties.

Of course, for most Canadians, their go-to PropTech platform is REALTOR.ca. Did you know that REALTOR.ca is now a for-profit company? They need a new CEO. Today, we're talking to that CEO, Mr. Scott Neil. He is a dog-loving cyclist who is bringing vision and experience. He's going to tell his entire story today. It's a great conversation, so buckle up. Here we go. Scott Neil, how are you, buddy?

Scott: I'm good, Shaun. How are you doing?

Shaun: I'm doing great. I understand you have a golden retriever, and I don't see any golden retriever hair on your dog. Do you love your dog?

Scott: I love my dog, but yes, it's surprising. I'm wearing a black T-shirt, and I don't think there's a speck of fur. Didn't even use a lint brush. Here you go.

Shaun: Oh, nice. Now, I've been using a lint brush here in Nova Scotia for all the wrong reasons. That's to find ticks. I've been finding ticks. Just a little tip for--

Scott: It is.

Shaun: -everybody out there, hot tip. You can use a lint brush to find ticks on your body and your dog. A little side thing, but we're not here to talk about ticks. We're here to talk about REALTOR.ca. We're here to talk about all kinds of stuff. I know nothing about you, man. You got to tell me about yourself. We're going to get into some more personal stuff later about who you are, what do you like to eat, all that. Right now, tell me about your journey, how you got here to be the CEO of REALTOR.ca.

Scott: Yes. I think like most people, when you're young, you have a certain vision of what you want to do. In reality, it never goes that way. When I was going into post-secondary education, one thing I was really interested in was advertising. I thought, "Oh, man, I want to work at an advertising agency, do something really cool and creative." This was a long time ago.

What did I do? I ended up going to university and studying political science. Then I also got a marketing diploma to go along with it. How those two things are connected, God only knows. I have no idea. I started my career in more of a traditional marketing capacity, working for a large retailer, Sears Canada at the time-

Shaun: Ooh.

Scott: -who no longer exists.

Shaun: The Sears catalog, classic.

Scott: Yes, classic stuff. That's actually where I started my journey in terms of the internet. This is, we're talking, I would say, late '90s. I was super interested in technology. I just kept putting papers about e-commerce on the national manager's desk. "Hey, this stuff is cool. We should sell stuff online." Then I became an internet marketing specialist as part of that. One of the first in that organization. That was cool. I got to combine a passion with the skill that I had, which was awesome.

Then from there, a former girlfriend of mine at the time showed me an ad in The Globe and Mail for Mercedes-Benz Canada, who was looking for somebody to lead internet, as they called it. I was with Mercedes-Benz Canada for five years. I started there in '99. This is pre-bubble, internet bubble, all that kind of stuff, which was pretty cool.

Had the opportunity to build out the Mercedes-Benz Canada website, dealer websites. A lot of the tools that are commonplace today when you're buying a car, like car configurator, comparison, all those things. Very cool opportunity. I think in a German car environment, which tends to be very conservative, I had a lot of autonomy because nobody else knew what was going on. They were afraid of the internet. I had an amazing opportunity at a young age to do some really cool stuff.

Shaun: Did you have to learn code? Did you have to learn how to build websites? I know that wasn't necessarily you. You had a team. Were you having to fill your brain with that knowledge as well, or did you just go say, "Hey, I'm going to use my 300-baud modem and send a message to somebody on BBM, BBS, whatever," and post it and say, "I need you to come and use your coding skills?" Did you have to fill yourself up with all that knowledge as well?

Scott: I had some tech chops. I could do HTML and I could understand the concepts and everything. I had enough technical skills and abilities to be dangerous, but not to build anything. I had a team who did that. I think one of the highlights of that role, and to be honest, my career, was the tech that we built at Mercedes-Benz Canada was very unique. We had the opportunity to sell that tech back to the head office in Stuttgart, Germany, and then that tech was implemented in 19 smaller markets across the world. I traveled to Singapore, where we launched it first. Young guy, huge impact, big opportunity. It was very cool at that time to do something like that.

Shaun: Coming out of this amazing journey where you're leading the charge, you're launching in all these markets all over the world, why would you ever leave?

Scott: It's a funny story, and it's a personal story because I met my wife at Mercedes-Benz. My wife worked for me. We decided that it would be best if one of us left if we wanted to be together, just to do the right thing from a corporate point of view. She had only been there, I think, two years, so I decided to leave and do something else.

Shaun: So thoughtful.

Scott: It's a love story, really.

Shaun: It's so thoughtful and selfless of you.

Scott: I know. I know. That's why I left Mercedes-Benz after five years.

Shaun: Wow.

Scott: It was a tough decision because I loved the job. It was a very cool brand to work for. I had a car and all that kind of good stuff, so it was good. On to different things and experiences. Complete 180, I went to Microsoft. I don't know if you remember. Remember back in the days when portals were big, like MSN and Yahoo and stuff like that? MSN was Microsoft. I worked for MSN, and I was a product manager. This is back into the heavy tech, defining what the experience is that you're going to build. My responsibilities in the big MSN were automotive and games. How fun is that?

Shaun: Interesting.

Scott: You have basically two channels, which are people are passionate about gaming, people are passionate about cars.

Shaun: Wait, that sounds like two very different buckets to have to manage. Were you developing product for the automotive sector that would be integrated within the cars?

Scott: No. It was more so if you think about the experience of going to MSN. If you go to MSN Autos, what you would do there is read and research articles and stuff like that.

Shaun: I see.

Scott: There'd be tools to help you decide what car to get.

Shaun: Got you.

Scott: There'd be fun lifestyle type of stuff. I had journalists and editors reporting to me, which was very cool to understand a little bit of that side of the business, which I had no exposure to. Then working on defining what the product experience would be on MSN Games and MSN Autos. What was, I think, culturally super different about that experience-- This time that I really enjoyed at Mercedes-Benz where you're suit and tie every day. Casual Fridays is a suit-without-a-tie kind of thing. Going to MSN and dudes are wearing flip-flops, backward ball caps, shorts.

Shaun: Stop, man.

Scott: Also, from a cultural point of view, it's not about hierarchy or anything. It's about the idea and your opinion. Everybody has the opportunity to contribute, and everybody's idea can be a good idea. It doesn't matter if you're the VP or if you're a product manager.

Shaun: Did that align with who you are as a person, or-

Scott: 100%.

Shaun: -were you feeling a little more like, "I need the hierarchy. I need that hard structure from Mercedes"?

Scott: I would say I found who I was there.

Shaun: Oh, I love that.

Scott: I think I've brought that into all of my management philosophy going forward, which is really about-- equality is one aspect of it, but it's really about providing people accountability and responsibility to own their own domain and have an impact. With that level of authority comes the need to be accountable to it as well. That's a big part of how I think about managing and operating a business.

Shaun: That's amazing because I think there has been a shift on a culture side when it comes to corporations and teams and working together. There seems to be a little bit more of a shift away from the older way of thinking to now being a little more community individuals who have ownership of their own path within an organization. Now, because it sounds like it's formulating inside of you as a value, a core value of how you operate, did you find moving through other organizations, and we'll hear about your next steps, but was it easy to implement that or did you find the friction when you move forward? That's a big shift in observing everything as a whole.

Scott: For sure. I think it's like a natural segue to the next position, which was back in automotive, working for a great brand called Autotrader. I was director of national marketing at the time, so a little bit away from product, more on a national marketing scale. Huge opportunity to implement digital across that organization in doing some really cool stuff and wind down the print piece. It was good, but it was a little bit different than what I was used to and what I enjoyed at Microsoft.

Shaun: Then from there, where did you end up?

Scott: Then I spent the next 14 years, unbelievably. I started at Kijiji in 2011,-

Shaun: Oh, cool.

Scott: -built up that business. Actually launched a real estate rentals business for Kijiji as well. That's where I got my first taste of real estate. That was in 2013, so expanded across the verticals in Kijiji, which was very cool. The roles that I had with that organization or the parent organizations over time really were an incredible opportunity.

In 2015, my wife and I moved to Berlin, Germany, to work for one of our sister classified marketplaces at the time called eBay Kleinanzeigen. Spent three years there basically building out all the monetization. There's real estate, automotive, pro services, and stuff like that. That was a really cool experience because you move to a different not just physical location but different culture. You're like, "Hey, whatever I've done that has been impactful or successful, will it work over here? Will it work in a different market?"

Shaun: What did you find out? What did you find out going across-- Germany, Canada, there's a lot of alignment there, but consumers are consumers.

Scott: I think the biggest thing was maybe two months in, I did an offsite meeting with my team, talk about strategy and all this. We're all sitting there. There's maybe, I don't know, 20 people. I'm at the front of the room presenting whatever I think is brilliant. There's no reaction. It's just stone-cold face. I think all of us, at least me, for sure, I'm always looking for those non-verbal cues to see if people are grasping it. Do you get it? Do you agree with it? Whatever. I actually paused, and I said, "Hey, I just want to do a pulse here. Am I blowing it? Is this good? Is this bad?" They're like, "No. No reaction means it is good."

Shaun: Wow.

Scott: You learn things like that. Like what to expect and how people react differently. The Berlin experience, personally and professionally, I would call it profound. We traveled everywhere in Europe, like every-weekend kind of thing. Then from a business point of view, the impact was just incredible. That business is still, it's a rocket ship. It's absolutely huge.

Shaun: You go through Kijiji, you help build that out and other partners around the world. You said that was the first experience with real estate in terms of really diving into that arm of Kijiji. How did that inform you to where you are now?

Scott: It's super interesting because I think back in the Kijiji days when we launched rentals, what was really impactful to me is you're really helping people with a very important decision and a very fundamental decision about where they live. I think there's a purpose behind that that I can really attach myself to that is, I think, bigger than the business itself and making money. I think that's really cool.

Again, another one of my philosophies is, I think, in the role I have now, I'm monetizing REALTOR.ca, but that, to me, is an outcome of all the other good things we do. I learned this over the course of my career as well. If you think about building the right product experience, helping people be successful in either renting their apartment or home or being a renter, if you can make money by making that successful, then that's a win, but if you're just trying to monetize the experience and just greedily make money without producing a good experience, that's not good for anybody. Everybody needs to win in order to make that a sustainable thing.

Shaun: Right. It sounds like there's places or organizations that may be so focused on short-term revenue, immediate, do whatever we can, profitable, profitable, profitable, versus a holistic approach of, "We need to care about the people who are really involved in this, the customer, the consumer, the operator of all of this." That sounds very Canadian. It feels very Canadian to think in those ways. Did you find that that is something that makes it uniquely Canadian?

Scott: I think so. I agree with you. That's a very Canadian philosophy or way of behaving or thinking. At the same time, eBay and their subsequent owners of Kijiji, as it's been sold a couple of times, I would say that was kind of a point of conflict is, you're a publicly traded company, you've got quarterly targets to hit come hell or high water. There comes some friction there. Like I said, Kijiji is a great business. I'm a big supporter of Kijiji. I'll always love the brand. I think over time, there was a big focus on short-term profitability, and the business was very successful that way at the cost of some of the long-term sustainability.

I think specifically, as you saw Facebook Marketplace come into Canada around 2017, 2018, as they started to build and get momentum, I don't think Kijiji was really prepared to compete on a head-to-head basis. Kijiji is still there. It's still got lots of traffic and buyers and sellers. I think had we spent more time thinking about the long-term and sustainable business and the money will come, I think it would be in a different position. That's a huge thing. Again, another lesson that informs me when I think about REALTOR.ca.

Shaun: Man, what an amazing journey to get you to where you are right now. How long have you been in this position? Not long, right? Relatively?

Scott: It'll be six months in a couple of weeks.

Shaun: Oh, brand new. Baby.

Scott: Brand new.

Shaun: Welcome.

Scott: I'm a baby.

Shaun: All these skills, all these value sets that are flowing through you now, you have great perspective, you've been to raves in Berlin, now you're here. Talk to me about, first of all, how did you get the call? Did you make the call? Were you the one who was reaching out? How did that all come to be? Then let's get into REALTOR.ca.

Scott: Luckily, I got contacted and had a couple of conversations. I was like, "Wow, this is really interesting." First of all, I use REALTOR.ca all the time. This is true stuff. The brand, the reach, amazing. What I learned was, hey, we're separating off REALTOR.ca to be a for-profit entity. The only shareholder is CREA, so we're still owned by the REALTORS®, which is amazing, but we have the opportunity to monetize the business and basically invest back in the business to improve the experience for REALTORS® and consumers. I'm like, "That's pretty cool. That's a very interesting opportunity."

The other part about the opportunity that is very rare in the Canadian tech space is to have a property, website, and so on, where you control everything. You have all the means of production. You build the product locally. All the decisions around the strategy are made here. In contrast, if you were to work for a Facebook or something like that and leading that business in Canada, you're primarily sales and marketing and PR. This opportunity is very rare, very unique with a huge brand. I got super excited about it. We had a couple of meetings, did a business case, and then I was luckily asked to join back in, I think it was end of October of last year.

Shaun: That's amazing. You took it. Where were you living at the time?

Scott: We were living in Huntsville in Muskoka. We were living where we thought we would live forever. We had built this place on the lake and living lake life and commuting into Toronto every week.

Shaun: Kids, no kids?

Scott: It was pretty nice. No kids. Just a big dog, and that's it.

Shaun: You can't leave there. What are you going to do, sell your house and move to Ottawa somewhere? What are you going to do?

Scott: Yes, well, that's exactly what I did. When we were talking about the role, it wasn't a requirement to relocate to Ottawa, but I felt really strongly about doing so for maybe two reasons. One, which is to really show my level of commitment that I was all in, and I wanted to demonstrate that. Right off the bat, I said, "If we're doing this, I'm moving to Ottawa."

The practical reason is a lot of the team is here. We're like a hybrid type of workforce, so people are in the office a couple of days a week. We're in the same building as the Canadian Real Estate Association, so there's good stuff happening there as well. I wanted to be here. Yes, that's exactly what we did. We listed our house for sale on Halloween, and we sold it Christmas Eve. We had three competing offers at 5:00 PM on Christmas Eve and sold our place in Huntsville.

Shaun: That's pretty amazing. Immediately, you're engaged at REALTOR.ca, you're listing, you know your listing is on REALTOR.ca, and then move. Tell me about that experience with selling. How close were you? Was it easy to use? What was that experience like?

Scott: We had an amazing REALTOR® who we selected. Why were they amazing? In short, they took care of everything. They did some minor staging, the way they marketed the property. Everything was just hands-free for us and completely taken care of. I remember seeing the sign on the front lawn before the house was actually on REALTOR.ca. There was a little sign on top that said, "Coming soon to REALTOR.ca." I snapped a photo of that, and I sent it to the team at REALTOR.ca. I said, "I'm not the only one coming soon to REALTOR.ca." Dad joke.

Shaun: That's a great dad joke, dude. That's great.

Scott: The market for a lakefront property at that time of year is not the best. Ice is coming, all this good stuff, if you don't like winter. We had a lot of demand, a lot of showings, and so on. When Christmas rolled around and we all of a sudden had three offers, it was pretty incredible. Our REALTOR® really guided us through that negotiation. That's something that we just wouldn't have been able to do to get the most value for our asset. Super excited about that. It made for a great Christmas, holiday, and New Year's.

Then January 5th, I'm on the ground here in Ottawa, and our house is closing, I think, January 19th. My wife is back preparing for the move and all that kind of stuff. I'm here alone in an Airbnb getting ramped up. I go back to Huntsville two days before we close to sign all the legal stuff. I'm in my kitchen looking out at the lake and the snow on the ground. I look at my septic cover because we were on a septic tank, and there's some brown residue around the cover. You can see it's contrasted with the snow. I'm like, "What could this be?" Then we figure out that we basically need a new septic a couple of days before we're going to close.

Shaun: Oh my God. That would be red flags all around. Was there a panic that set in? Were you like, "How am I going to manage this? Who's going to take care of this?"

Scott: Extreme panic. I don't know what to do. We're calling our septic guy. He's three hours away. He can't come. I sent him a video. He said he thinks it's this. We're like, "This is not going to close. The deal is going to fall apart." We called our REALTOR®. She calmed us down. She's like, "We'll deal with this. It's fine." I think that was the thing that really relieved us, is immediately she's dealing with the lawyers. She's dealing with the buyer's agent. Within 24 hours, we had this sorted out. Small abatement later, it closes. The money is in our bank account. We're off to a new adventure in Ottawa.

Shaun: Oh, wow. That was a scary turn there for a second. What I find interesting about that is the importance of-- all of the people watching this right now, they're REALTORS® and so the human element to this is so important. There's a bit of a cross-pollination here. We've got the new tech. Everything is happening. REALTOR.ca is growing. However, you cannot do it without having those individuals who are at the helm, the REALTOR®?

Scott: 100%. I think REALTOR.ca does a lot of the heavy lifting around the marketing and exposure of the property and the online experience with the virtual tools and videos and so on, which is really cool and, as a consumer, very helpful to inform you and educate you on what you're looking for. Obviously, in situations like this, what do you do without that person who has seen this before and can guide you through it and make sure that it closes? I don't know. The intersection of technology and humans is like a core theme for me. In this example, if you think about things like AI, that intersection of those two things, humans and tech, is super important.

Shaun: Amazing. You sold your house. Now, what about buying?

Scott: Funny story is we weren't sure where we wanted to land in Ottawa. I wanted to experience what a neighborhood is like. We rented at first, and then we decided, pretty early, we know where we want to be. We ended up, just a couple of weeks ago actually, working with another great REALTOR® here who really helped us understand the neighborhoods.

My wife is on REALTOR.ca all the time looking at possible houses, going back and forth with the REALTOR® saying, "What do you think about this? What do you think about the street?" The REALTOR® is taking us through all these properties. She's asking us questions that my wife and I never even had discussed in terms of what we think and how we feel. It was really helpful in helping us, my wife and I, align on what we were looking for in our next property. That was great. We ended up buying the place, and we actually move in in-- we get possession a week from today, I think.

Shaun: Oh, wow. This is amazing. We are living inside of this tornado, and you're about to be set down on hopefully an evil witch, and that will stop all the madness that's been happening in the world.

Scott: That's right.

Shaun: That's amazing. You're feeling like now you're in transition, you're getting settled. You talk about the intersection between human and tech. I've been hearing a lot about this word PropTech. Explain to me what PropTech is. Is that something to do with human and technology intersecting? Tell me about PropTech.

Scott: It's a cool term for something that is very simple. It's basically, again, I'll use "intersection" again, but it's the intersection of technology and the real estate business, basically. It's that simple. The same thing if you think about the term "fintech" is the intersection between technology and finance and banking.

Shaun: There it is. Thank you for clarifying. Some people may know, some people may not. Listen, I want to get into some personal stuff, but I think we've talked a lot about the personal. I really want to hear now about REALTOR.ca, where it's going, what your vision is for it. It's such a unique platform. Talk to me a bit about that because you're still in the midst of shaping this vision. It's not all set in stone, right?

Scott: It's very early days. It's early days, yes, for sure.

Shaun: Right. You're bringing with you all the values, all the core values, all your philosophies, your management philosophy, plus all that tech knowledge that you bring, the marketing. How does this all funnel in to REALTOR.ca, monetizing REALTOR.ca? Talk to us about that.

Scott: I think the best place to start is the mission. Our mission is to help Canadians make confident housing decisions. It's a pretty simple phrase, but it really does a lot of work. It means a lot. When I think about it, where REALTOR.ca is right now, we're great in the discovery. Hey, what do I want to live? What kind of place do I want to look at? What are the prices? What do the photos look like? Down to when you're in the buying or selling phase to really helping you select and be more educated as you work with a REALTOR®. We're great at that.

Where we have a huge opportunity is throughout the entire housing journey to really help consumers make really good choices for housing. I'll give you a couple of examples. First, if you think if you're a first-time home buyer, maybe the first time you bought a house or I bought a house, I knew nothing. The REALTOR® is definitely there to help you make some good decisions.

I think with the advancement of technology, you can leverage tools to help educate yourself. You're making the right decision. Are you going into a neighborhood that is right for you, for your lifestyle, and so on? Is it a good financial decision for you? As you start getting into real estate, that really can set the path forward in terms of a lot of impact on your finances in the future. That would be one example.

Then as you think about beyond just the moments of buying and selling, this whole aspect of moving into a property or living in the property for all that time, there's all kinds of things that REALTOR.ca can support the consumer with throughout that. This is everything from renovations to property maintenance to lawn care, landscaping, all of these kinds of services that are really beneficial to someone living in a house.

With that, we can keep the connection with that consumer over that journey and hopefully keep them connected with their REALTOR® as well so when it comes time to do the next purchase or sale, we're there, and everybody is there, and we're connected, and we know a lot about that consumer and what their habits are and what they're looking for.

Shaun: That's amazing. I think the majority of people in Canada, when you go to your REALTOR.ca, you're not spending a lot of time on REALTOR.ca unless you're in the market buying or selling. What you're saying is, in terms of the vision, the long-term vision, is that, no, as somebody who has now purchased a home, throughout my homeownership journey, there's going to be value in going to REALTOR.ca not just to see, "Oh, I want to get a check on the market in this neighborhood. Are they selling? Buying? What is the value? Is it going to happen?"

You're saying it's going to go beyond that and it's going to be a much more active-- there's great value in me going there when it comes to renovations, knowledge in general about making confident decisions about where I live and how to make my house even better.

Scott: Yes, that's exactly it. We have a sizable audience who is, to your point, coming to the site to see, "Hey, what's the neighbor's place look like that got posted," or just to monitor the market. Those folks who are living in their house, we can be so much more to them than just what is the neighbor's house selling for, what does their kitchen look like. We can provide much more for those users over the course of their journey. I think the big thing is really expanding the scope of REALTOR.ca to create more value and be the place for all of your housing needs. Buying and selling, of course, incredibly important, but also living.

Shaun: Explain to me, walk me through what some of these tools might be. I'm a consumer. I buy my house. Now I'm four years in, or I'm two years into my house, and I'm like, "Why would I need to go back to REALTOR.ca?" What are some places to go on REALTOR.ca that you envision will be tools that I can use?

Scott: One that I'll start with, which is really in the buying and selling moment, is earlier this year we announced a partnership with RBC around mortgages. You could think this is just about coming and being redirected to RBC to start a pre-qualification or to get a mortgage. It's definitely part of it. RBC is a very trusted brand.

In addition to that, again, aligning to our mission about confident decisions, there's all kinds of education and expert advice that we're co-authoring with RBC that helps inform users about what kind of mortgage and what are the implications of this that are really helpful and I think very different to other websites and how they think about connecting a user or a customer with financing their home. That's one example, very much in the journey.

If we want to think about some of the future things as you go through the cycle, one is around services around moving. You've decided, like us, you've got this property, you're going to move. Can we connect you with a great moving service? You come to REALTOR.ca, and you find that mover. Further down the road as you're living in that property, maybe you've been there for three or four years, and you're like, "I always thought we could use a deck out back and maybe a hot tub and a sauna and all these things." We could connect you with those partners who will be trusted and be able to provide those services for you.

Again, throughout that journey, everything that you need will be connected. Then I'd say one other thing that is an interesting opportunity is if you think about maybe you're considering, "Should I renovate?" or "Should I move? What are the options?" If we can provide you with expert advice around what are the implications of moving versus renovating, or should you do something to your property before you put it up for sale to get the most value for it? These are all of the things that I think the number of ideas, partnerships, and integrations are basically limitless throughout this whole process.

That's what I think is really cool about this opportunity. Aside from improving the core house-finding experience, which we're going to do, the opportunity to try different things like mortgages, for example. "Hey, does this resonate with our users? Is this cool?" Right?

Shaun: I think the demand is going to be there. You got me excited about that idea. I think that an idea people are going to want and to know if they can go to this, go to REALTOR.ca, and I can do just about everything from there, how can that not be of great value? Yes, the question of trust because we live in a world online where it's hard to trust the internet, generally speaking. Yes, you've got your work cut out for you, but I think that vision is something that I'm excited about as a homeowner in Nova Scotia now, absolutely 100%.

Scott: Very cool. Well, I think just to the point about trust, and I think I'll call it our unfair advantage, is that we're the only professionally backed real estate marketplace in Canada, meaning we're owned by the REALTORS®. That's fundamentally a very different approach than competitors in this space.

Shaun: Right. Competitors in this space, compared to us, to a REALTOR®, what would you say is the biggest difference there?

Scott: Well, I think fundamentally, we have an obligation to deliver value back to REALTORS®, which is one of our core strategic pillars, and that comes from really doing the right thing for the consumer. Doing the right thing for the consumer is going to deliver value back to REALTORS®. Our mission is very much user-centric and very much delivering value to REALTORS®, and then from that comes commercial opportunities and the opportunity to make money.

Based on my past experience working on other marketplaces, it might be the other way around, where the objective is the money, and basically, how do you monetize the user? I think that order of operations is super important philosophically.

Shaun: Prioritizing, yes, it makes a big difference. You said REALTOR.ca, it is the only professionally backed marketplace. It is the absolutely most visited website when it comes to consumers trying to find homes or sell their homes. If it is so wildly popular, it's so ahead of everybody else in terms of visits and clicks, why do more? You're already there. You're in the pocket. Why innovate?

Scott: Consumers' expectations are constantly changing and evolving and expecting more. If you think about just yourself in the last 10 years and the technology that's available to you now versus 10 years ago, just look in your pocket, look at your phone and what it's capable of now versus what it could do 10 years ago, and subsequently, every new iPhone that comes out seems maybe even somewhat disappointing because you're so used to this massive evolution of technology.

The big thing is customers have different expectations and demands, and we need to keep up with that. Then the second thing is the competition doesn't sleep either. They're looking for new ways to acquire users and build new experiences. We can't just rely on the fact that we have this great market share now. We have to earn it every day, and that's something that is very important for us. Then last thing about technology, if you think obviously we couldn't have this conversation without talking about AI and the opportunity that we have to leverage AI in a number of ways in a [sound cut]

Shaun: How will you incorporate or how will it incorporate itself? Without our permission, it's just going to take over. I'd be like, "No, no we got this, Scott. We got it. I'm AI. I got you. Don't you worry about it."

Scott: That is a key, key, key point when I mentioned about responsibly integrate AI into what we do. That's key. That comes back to trust, one of our core values. I think about AI in three ways. First, internally here at REALTOR.ca, how we can use AI to work better. How can we be more productive? How can it help us and do that responsibly? That's pillar 1. The second one is how can we use it to improve the user experience, reduce friction, help them find what they're looking for, personalize the experience. That's on-site, which you would experience from REALTOR.ca.

Then ultimately, that will deliver better insights and value and higher quality leads to REALTORS®. Then all of this is underpinned by governance and responsibility of AI and customer data privacy; all of these kinds of things are paramount when you think about AI. Those are the three ways that I think about AI. We can get into maybe the experience side or how we work with it a little bit. That's the way that I think about how we're going to leverage AI.

Shaun: Do you see there being an interface with AI through REALTOR.ca? If so, how are you going to counter that instinct for me to be like, "I want a person"?

Scott: Yes. There's definitely going to be people involved from a REALTOR® point of view. This is, again, that intersection of technology and people where I think we're very uniquely positioned. I think your latter description of the experience that you would like is very much aligned to how I think about it. How can it be helpful? How can it personalize the experience? When I think about chatbots, I'm totally going to age myself. If you remember working with Microsoft Word back in the '90s, they had Clippy, the paperclip that would come up, "Hey, it looks like you're trying to write a memo." They were just so annoying.

Some of the chatbots are the modern version of that. I think why they're annoying is they're interfering and interjecting themselves into the experience on their own as opposed to having it being user-initiated. I think having the user in control of how they want to leverage the AI tools that we offer, I think, is one thing that really reduces friction. Then two, the more that we can customize and tailor the experience based on the individual user will be helpful as well.

We can leverage AI to use that to do that. Then maybe the last example that I would give is people like to search and discover properties in different ways. Some people are more visual. Some people are more data-oriented. If you think about all the photos that come into REALTOR.ca, if we're able to determine, say, the interior design or the exterior design, you say, "Hey, I want to search for properties that have a mid-century modern exterior from the 1970s."

If we can use AI to identify all those properties that have that and do that through a visual search, just flipping through photos, that's a really cool way for someone who's visual and very specific about the look and feel of what they want to buy in terms of a property.

Shaun: Yes, I think that's amazing. AI has such incredible potential in this space, in my mind. I think about if I'm worried about crime in an area, or if I'm worried about schools, or if I'm worried about-- AI can paint a really compelling picture that is not just the data. It actually can tell you a story about the place too, about a region, about an area, about some interesting-- It's very exciting. I really hope you lean into the AI. I just would hope that it's going to be used in a way that-- It sounds like it is, but it's such a great opportunity. I'm stoked to hear about that.

Scott: Yes, again, back to the responsible implementation and use of it is core. It's fundamental. REALTOR.ca is such a well-known brand with such a reputation for quality and neutrality, and that's something that we really need to protect as we continue to evolve and innovate the experience. It's fundamental.

Shaun: Talk to me about that. How do you see it expanding? Because there is a slow and steady approach to all of this as well as that quick "Wow, we're sitting on something amazing." Talk to me about that in terms of how you see it expanding. What are the pillars? What are the approaches?

Scott: The thing with it is it's not AI for the sake of AI. It's thinking about what AI can do to help us achieve our goals and strategy. If we talk about expanding across the entire homeownership journey, how can we use AI to look at how people are traveling across that journey and maybe suggest the appropriate services that can help them make those decisions, those confident decisions that they want to make.

It's really not about just, "Hey, how can we throw in AI to do something specific?" It's really about how does it meet our goals? How does it help us achieve our objectives? That's the fundamental thing. The other aspect of it is when we think about anything that we're going to develop, everything is really a test and learn. We have hypotheses and theories about what's going to work. You try something. You do a small experiment. You leverage. You test it with audience. You get the data to see how it worked.

Then maybe it's not working, so you make a change to see if it can work, or it just won't work, so you throw it away and do something else. That's really how we have to think about it. Everything gets aligned back to our strategy and the mission that we talked about. Then the other piece that's not so much consumer-facing is how we think about using AI to do our work better at REALTOR.ca. That's a core thing. I'll give you a really good practical example from yesterday when I was speaking with our lawyer.

We'd done a contract with a partner, and typically what happens is, after the contract is signed, we have to execute it. There's product folks, marketing folks involved in this. Very often, they're going back to the lawyer to help interpret the contract. They'll ask you a question about this and this logo here and so on and so forth. What the lawyer did that was really cool is he wrote a custom GPT and uploaded all of the context around the contract and everything, our obligations and so on, shared that with marketing and said, "Let's test this. Start asking questions to the GPT about our implementation of what our obligations are and what we should do."

If you think about, if that's successful, the opportunity that has is the lawyer doesn't have to be the person who goes back and rereads the contract and interprets it to the business. The business can do that through the GPT with all the context. That's not super sexy, but what that is is really about productivity. That can be replicated everywhere across the organization.

Shaun: Totally. That's cost savings. There's a lot there that is mind-blowing. Now, again, going back to the human side of things, a lot of REALTORS® are watching this right now. I'm sure there's some thought about, "Hey, maybe AI within REALTOR.ca can help me with some of the leads." I'm not a REALTOR®, but I've heard some rumors that people talk about, well, sometimes you go on there, you get a lead, but it's a dead end. How can REALTOR.ca evolve and shift to maybe help where there's more warm leads that are a little more sustainable?

Scott: Incredibly important, and I think it's an objective of ours to deliver more value to REALTORS®. Last year, 2025, we delivered 6 million leads to REALTORS® from REALTOR.ca.

Shaun: Cool.

Scott: Big number.

Shaun: Good number.

Scott: Yes. That question about the quality of those leads is incredibly important. Last year, if we were thinking about that, we didn't really have a good way to understand the quality of those leads. You could do it by surveying and saying, "Hey, was this a good lead?" That's pretty cumbersome, and how do you do that on the scale of 6 million leads? Very difficult to do. If we think about AI, there's two pieces. One, from a consumer point of view, having a better prepared consumer, so they're more educated when they're working with a REALTOR®, I think makes the REALTOR®’s job easier and more effective and more successful.

Then the second thing, specifically about leads, is we should have the opportunity to provide more insight when we provide a lead to a REALTOR®. An example of that would be back to mortgage. As we start offering different services and partnerships and tools across the site, maybe we can indicate in that lead that, "You know what, this user's checked out the mortgage calculator. They've read three articles on how to finance their home." These kind of things will add more context to the lead. Maybe you could score the lead to say out of 10, how good is this lead, and how likely is it to turn into something.

Shaun: Right. That's amazing. I think a lot of REALTORS® are going to be excited to hear about that as well. REALTOR.ca is now a revenue generator. Let's talk about how that revenue generation is going to work moving forward. Also, how does that affect dues? I know that there's some conversation about dues, raising, lowering. Talk to me about that.

Scott: Yes. When we think about revenue, currently we have three main buckets of revenue. One, which is very visible on the site, which are advertising. Display advertising that you see on the site. It's very good, high-margin revenue, but I don't view that as really a strategic lever going forward. That's really about funding the journey so we can do other things. With advertising, you really want to make sure that it's not intrusive of the experience.

The second thing, which is where I see a really big opportunity going forward, are through partnerships with legitimate, trusted brands. RBC is a great example of that. We've got more in the pipe to help us with that homeowner journey. When I think about this revenue stream, it's highly strategic because what it does is it delivers value for the user, it delivers value for the consumer, and it makes money for REALTOR.ca and the partner. You've got a win-win-win. That's the best way to generate revenue because it's a sustainable revenue stream.

Then the last one is really around data. We currently have a product called DDF where we syndicate listings that are sent to the platform to other websites to provide more exposure for the REALTOR®. Different websites, competing websites, so that the REALTOR®’s listing gets to more places. We charge a fee for that. In addition to that, there's other opportunities to leverage the data on our site to empower other partners and sell that data.

Again, trust is paramount. Not about exposing any user data or anything like that, but if you think about things like insights around behaviors or likes and dislikes on aggregate in certain areas, can help other companies market their products, decide what they want to do. This doesn't create friction for the user, doesn't expose anything in terms of privacy. That's another stream that I see as being a revenue stream for REALTOR.ca.

Shaun: Right. Amazing. Then now, from what I understand, the long-term goal is to be fully self-funded. Is that correct?

Scott: That is a huge priority for me because when you talk about member dues, part of the dues that a REALTOR® pays to the Canadian Real Estate Association have historically been to operate this incredible platform. It really is a bargain, considering we have 61% market share and just such a massive reach. It really is a bargain. Fundamentally, we want to be able to be a self-sustaining business. Over time, the money that we make will reduce membership dues.

Then, as we make money, we invest that money always back into the platform. It's not going to some private equity or another external shareholder or anything like that. That's a really cool proposition that's very unique. Yes, we want to reduce member dues, and we want to continue to invest in the platform.

Shaun: I love it. Now, we've had an amazing journey today. I love hearing this. We could talk for hours, but we're coming down to that point where here you are, you've got a lot of work to do, you're still going to unpack boxes, move into your new house, and then get right down and dirty. I want to hear, what does the future of REALTOR.ca look like to you? What excites you the most? In a sea of muddied online environments, REALTOR.ca, talk to me about building that trust, again, that's so important.

Scott: The starting point to that is probably when I was going through the process of being interviewed for this job. When I was talking to my wife about it at the time, when I had the offer, she's like, "REALTOR.ca people are going to freak out at this brand and that you're going there. It's just such a crazy opportunity." She said, "One thing that you'll need to do is," she said, "the site's great, it works, but it doesn't look like it's really been evolved in the last seven years or something like that.

I think that's really the exciting part is to take something that's impactful to Canadians' lives, they use, they love, they're familiar with the experience, but it's a pretty practical experience. The opportunity to evolve that, leveraging the technology that we have, leveraging the great people who work in this building for REALTOR.ca, getting the input from REALTORS®, that opportunity to take this icon of a website and really evolve it to its next stage while monetizing it, while reducing membership dues, that's a really cool mission, and that's what really excites me.

We're going to impact millions of Canadians in a positive way from doing that. That's why I say this is like a dream, dream opportunity. It's very cool. Then I think we talked about a lot of the specifics around the experience and personalization and more educated consumers who are better prepared, who produce better outcomes to REALTORS®. There's a lot there that can happen. The key thing is this is going to be a journey.

We have a mission and a vision and a strategy. We're just at the very beginning of defining what that looks like. Even, for example, tomorrow, I'm meeting with a group of my team offsite to define some of this, like brainstorm, working session. What does the future of this actually look like in practical terms over the next three years? We're in the heart of that right now.

Shaun: Oh my God. It's so exciting. I'm sorry. I just love that. When we're at a precipice like this, whether it's REALTOR.ca or any other organization, when you're in that like, "Okay, we're going to take this, which is already great, and we're going to make it even better." I'm just curious. I know you're busy, and I know you've just signed on to do this job. Would you consider going in and stealing the coaching job for the Toronto Maple Leafs? It just sounds like your vision for REALTOR.ca, that approach to values and evolution, as a Toronto fan, I just would say, I think you could make a great coach.

Scott: Thank you.

Shaun: I don't know this new coach, but I know he's around, but I think we need you.

Scott: I think you've just subtly given your opinion of the new GM and coach, without saying it.

Shaun: It's still early days. It could be brilliant. It could all be stroke of genius. I don't know. I just love hearing your vision. Every Toronto Maple Leaf fan is like, "We need somebody with vision." Maybe this guy is. I don't know.

Scott: I'll tell you something. I'm unique in that-- I'm going to make a lot of enemies with this.

Shaun: I know you, yes. Know where you are. Know where your house is.

Scott: I'm a Habs fan. That doesn't work in Ottawa. It doesn't work in Toronto, but it have been for my entire life. However, I'm not the kind of Habs fan that if the Habs were out of the playoffs and Toronto was in it or Ottawa was in it, I'd be going for them because they're Canadian teams. I support them. It doesn't have to be a binary love-hate thing.

Shaun: Sure. That was very diplomatic.

Shaun: Scott, this has been an incredible conversation. I am so thankful to have spent time with you today. I know that REALTORS® who are watching and just regular people who are watching this, consumers, Canadians, and international, I think it's been incredibly insightful. I am so excited about REALTOR.ca in the future. Good luck, man. Good luck. I hope you're here for 14, 20 year, whatever it is. I'm sure your wife is, too. She's just like, "Okay, we just need to settle. We had to give up our hospital house. Now we're here in Ottawa." I wish you all the best, man. I'm so stoked you're part of REALTOR.ca. It's going to be great.

Scott: I appreciate it. This conversation is awesome. As you know, I'm a big fan of you as well. This has been such a cool experience. Like I said, dream job. Dream job. Just amazing.

Shaun: Awesome. Well, good luck. Thank you, Scotty.

Scott: All right. Thanks a lot, Shaun.

Shaun: All right. Cheers.

Scott: Cheers.

Shaun: Thank you, Scott. I'm bummed you're not going to be the new coach for the Toronto Maple Leafs. It doesn't matter because you're in the right position to be the new CEO of REALTOR.ca. I think REALTOR.ca is in pretty good hands with Scott. Did you feel it? You can just tell. You can tell. I'm excited to hear where REALTOR.ca is going to hear his conversation, how the consumer and the REALTOR® are front and center when it comes to everything that is going to happen with REALTOR.ca.

Thanks so much, Scott, and congratulations on your new position. Of course, if you liked today's episode, tell us by giving us a rating wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and ingest your favorite podcasts. Today's episode of REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association Production, courtesy of Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. We'll see you next time, on REAL TIME.

The housing market is always changing, but today’s frequent shifts are by forces beyond real estate. Oil prices, inflation and broader economic uncertainty are impacting Canadian housing markets and buyer sentiment in real time, with real-world effects for buyers, sellers and communities across the country. In response to these everchanging conditions, CREA adjusted its 2026-2027 forecast earlier this year.

On this episode of REAL TIME, CREA’s Senior Economist Shaun Cathcart joins host Shaun Majumder to discuss what’s been happening in Canadian housing markets over the last year, what we’re seeing right now, and what could be coming down the pike.

Transcript

Shaun Cathcart: Buyers and sellers are seeing more eye-to-eye these days. Those trends are really encouraging, and homes are moving faster.

Shaun Majumder: I think biking is the way to go, man. Biking, walking. I could walk with my kids from Nova Scotia to B.C. We could do it.

Shaun M: With the ever-changing housing market, man, it's important to have a voice who knows what's up, what's going on under the hood. There's so many factors that affect the market. I want to dig deep with our guide today, Mr. Shaun Cathcart. He is the chief economist of CREA. He's going to talk about trends and numbers, expectations. Let's not waste any more time, and let's get into it.

Oh my God, Shaun Cathcart, I've missed you. I've missed you, man, because you're the only, other than Shaun Cassidy, the only other person I know with the name spelled the same as me. I miss you. How are you, Shaun Cathcart?

Shaun C: Pretty good, Shaun Majumder. I know that we discussed last time. It's odd to have an easy, common first name that you still have to spell for people every time.

Shaun M: I know, right? I know. It makes me feel a little bit unique and original in that most of it is S-E-A-N, S-H-A-W-N, but not as rare as, I met a lady from, I think it was Welsh spelling, it was S-I-A-N, Sian.

Shaun C: Oh, that's cool.

Shaun M: Yes, super cool, but not as cool as you. Not as cool as you.

Shaun C: I made my peace with my name many years ago.

Shaun M: Well, listen, man, thanks for coming back on. We got a lot to talk about. The world is very stable and uneventful right now. What a good time to chime in. As the senior economist for CREA, dude, I got to say, last time we spoke, there was a lot of bright lights shining in terms of the forecast. What the heck? Sometimes I feel like economic forecasters are similar to weather forecasters in Newfoundland. You say it's going to be sunny, and then all of a sudden it's freezing sleet and snow. What's going on?

Shaun C: Yes, I chalk it up to what our friend David Coletto from Abacus Data calls a perma-crisis. Starting from the beginning of the 2020s, it's just been one thing after another. It's a pandemic. The lowest mortgage rates ever, and then it's an inflation crisis. The first time the Bank of Canada has ever had to break glass in emergency on their inflation-targeting mandate in 30 years. Then it's a crazy tariff war. Now it's an oil crisis. It's one thing after another. I think our forecast was good. It's just the events continue to come and pull the rug out from under it.

Shaun M: Yes, that must be frustrating. It's frustrating for all humans who live in this country, I'll tell you that. It's obviously not on you at all, but you must get that sometimes. As the voice of the forecast, how does that feel? Just on a personal level, before we get into the data, tell me about that because you are the guy. You're doing interviews on CBC, you're doing interviews with all these podcasters. How does that feel, and how do you manage it?

Shaun C: I'll tell you this, it's a lot easier to get your forecast wrong when you have a good excuse. It'd be a lot worse if nothing had changed and we somehow got it completely wrong. The bigger the change in the forecast, the more you get criticized for it. Oftentimes, that's the result of these external factors that, in one interview, I said, "Well, let's just cross our fingers this is the last one for a while, once this one gets resolved." We can have one normal year in the 2020s.

Shaun M: Don't shoot the messenger. It's not necessarily the messenger's issue. It is. We're living in crazy times, I will say that, and things are changing so fast. Talk to me a bit about that. CREA has recently downgraded the resale housing market forecast. What factors played into that decision?

Shaun C: Sure. The big one is the oil price spike that the world is going through right now, and the global inflation that it is already causing and will cause more of. What happens is, the way that mortgage rates are set is that bond markets and futures markets see inflation coming for sure. It's up a full percent in the last two months just on gas prices. It's going to be worse when diesel surcharges start coming through. Then, if farmers can't fertilize their crops, oil really feeds into everything. What futures markets think is, "Well, the Bank of Canada is going to have to raise interest rates."

Bond yields go up, and fixed mortgage rates are based on that. It was a Monday night on, I believe, the fourth week of March, right in advance of the spring market that we thought was going to start to gain some momentum, that all the big lenders raised their five-year fixed mortgage rates by 40 basis points. That's a big deal when affordability is already tough. A big part of the downgrade in our forecast was, we think people are going to go back to the sidelines this spring and cross their fingers, as everyone else is, that this oil crisis is quickly resolved and those rates go maybe back to more normal levels in the second half of the year.

Shaun M: Yes. With these global events that are happening, the oil, the tariffs, who could have predicted all that a year and a half ago?

Shaun C: Oh, yes. The truth is much stranger than anyone could have predicted. There are events that happen weekly that if you told me last week, I would never believe possible. I feel like we're like the old analogy of the frog slowly boiling in the water. It's just that the crazy just gets turned up one notch every day, and you don't realize how wild things have become just from a year ago.

Shaun M: Yes. There's the oil situation. Obviously, the flow of oil, the Strait of Hormuz is closed. Currently, as we do this, what are people saying about the effect of tariffs? That was something I remember when we were discussing the last time we talked; there was the looming tariffs. The tariffs have now come, and I wouldn't say are gone, but did that have as much of an impact as we thought it would?

Shaun C: No. The last time we talked, I believe, was just in advance of the announcement of the tariffs. The original announcement was 25% blanket on everything we export to the United States. That would have been a total disaster. There were conservative economists that were predicting a million job losses. That really shut down the housing market in the spring of last year.

In the fullness of time, for one thing, when Liberation Day came, and they announced the tariffs on every other country in the world, that was like the eye of Sauron turning away from Canada and Mexico a little bit. Then, in the fullness of time, CUSMA came along to protect us from a lot of those. We have the sectoral tariffs. If you're in a place that has a big steel plant or you're in a part of the country that produces cars, it's going to have a major impact.

From a macro standpoint, it's not nearly as bad as it could have been. That's what brought a lot of buyers back into the market in the fall of last year. The question mark is, is that going to happen again this year? The situation that's causing the weakness now has yet to be resolved. Best-case scenario is we get something like last year with the tariffs, where, in the fullness of time, this oil shock ends up being not as bad as it could be if things start to settle down over the summer.

Shaun M: Right. That's the key. It's got to settle down within the next three to five months. Is that safe to say before Bank of Canada starts doing more rate hikes? What's your prediction about that in terms of Bank of Canada? As you read the tea leaves, how is the Bank of Canada reacting to all this turmoil?

Shaun C: Sure. I always read what the Bank of Canada says very carefully and try to distill what their message is. Two announcements ago, when this was all getting going, they said, "This is a really bad situation. It's going to cause inflation. What matters is the breadth and duration." At the time, what they meant by breadth was, is Iran going to keep blowing up all the infrastructure in the Gulf? Because then I don't know how you even load up the boats if you can't even create oil and fertilizer and all that stuff, if the industrial plant's blown up. That was short-lived.

Now it's the duration of the closure of the strait that's the issue. Duration. In their last announcement, I distilled from that that they were saying, "Hey, time's a ticking here." Initially, we were saying, "Oh, it's only been this many weeks." Then we said, "Oh, it's only been a month." Then, "It's only two months." It's like there's only so long you can say that before that inflation starts to really become not just temporary, but entrenched in a way that they have to react to. I'm not exactly sure what the timeline is on that, but it's before the leaves term in the fall, that's for sure.

Shaun M: Yes. It's all wait and see. There's a lot of it that's out of whether it's the Bank of Canada, whether it's our government. Canada, obviously, is where we're focused. Is it safe to say, from my perspective, it feels like there's a lot of it that is out of our control?

Shaun C: Yes, exactly. The Bank of Canada can't control global oil prices, but their mandate is to attack inflation and also inflation expectations. If Canadians start to think, "Oh, this inflation's coming again," and they start to behave as if it is, then it's a self-reinforcing thing that really the central bank's job is to get on top of. It doesn't help us that our GDP numbers, in terms of balancing out inflation with a weak economy, the bank noted, aren't going to look as bad because we're selling a ton of expensive oil, which was not the case back in the '70s when we had an oil crisis.

The Bank of Canada showed, in 2022, that they're going to be aggressive in attacking inflation. That was the lesson of the 1970s, was inflation targeting. I think that they're going to do it again if they have to.

Shaun M: Right. How do they do that? By raising rates?

Shaun C: By raising rates. If you look at where they are now on their policy rate, they have a ban that they call the neutral. It's like the neutral zone in Star Trek. They're at the bottom of that. If they need to put their foot on the brake pedal, that's not one or two hikes away. That's at least four or five until they're actually putting their foot on the brake pedal again. Right now, markets are edgy, and they're saying maybe they'll do one or two this year. I think it's either going to play out as they don't have to do any, or they're going to have to do more than that. Markets are in the middle, just waiting to see how things play out at the moment.

Shaun M: Right. Now, last time we spoke, there was this conversation around-- Your prediction was that buyers are going to be waiting on the sidelines, waiting for that rate to go to the bottom. Talk to me about what that bottom seems to be, what it is. I know we're a little more concerned about rate hikes at this point. Talk about what that bottom looks like, and does that change over time, and where are we headed with that?

Shaun C: Sure. That's a great question. That's a tricky one because Canadians famously love their five-year fixed rates. Most Canadian borrowers take that, classic conservative Canadian. For the last year, or up until a little while ago when rates started to go up, the bottom was about 3.99 on a discounted five-year fixed mortgage rate. I know from talking to some brokers that they were having a tough time. That was the bottom. It was there for a year.

I know that a lot of lenders and brokers were having a tough time convincing their clients, and saying, "This is about as good as you're going to do." The clients were saying, "Well, no. For more than a decade leading up to COVID, a five-year fixed rate was like 2.8, 3, 3.1. I'm not locking it at a 4." They were waiting for rates to continue to go down, even as markets, we're starting to say, "Hey, we think they're going to go up."

For all those borrowers that said, "No, 4 can't be the bottom," I think it's pretty clear now that it was, and it's now gone. Hopefully, it comes back in the fullness of time. Do we return to a pre-COVID era where rates are really low again, or is around in the 4s going to be the norm going forward as opposed to in the 3s? I don't know. I guess that's a medium-term thing for the Bank of Canada to figure out.

Shaun M: Yes. What are you seeing in the short-term?

Shaun C: Oh, in the short-term, mortgage rates have already gone up. I suspect that they may go up more. Every day that ticks by with the Strait of Hormuz closed, the odds of a rate hike or more rate hikes and sooner go up. Bond markets price that in now. Clock's ticking.

Shaun M: When we say short-term, what kind of frame are we talking about?

Shaun C: Inflation just came out. Inflation's way up, but the core measures that they prefer to look at are still edging down. We got the initial shock of the oil and the gas pump is driving the overall headline number up, but all that other stuff that was gradually easing off—food and that sort of thing, travel—is still sort of moving in that direction. The problem is the longer the oil price stays high, it's going to start to raise those other things up again.

When I say near-term, I'd say six months to a year. That's really their time horizon for oil to get itself under control is by this time next year, because, otherwise, your year-over-year then builds another year on top of the inflation we already have now.

Shaun M: There's been a lot of talk in Canada about us becoming more independent of any of our major trading partners. Do you think that will help ease some of the stress of that upward pressure on inflation? We're making big moves. We're trying to disconnect a little. Do you see any upside in that?

Shaun C: I don't know how it could affect-- Well, if there's a lot of money swirling around, that can be inflationary, but it's also a transformation that we have to make, I think. It's a smart one, very big and bold. I just read a thing this morning saying that we are now the number one destination for foreign capital coming into making big investments because we're reliable. That's good in the medium to longer term, but I don't know how it could affect inflation in the near term because there's so many factors pulling in so many different directions.

Another thing with the economy is consumer spending. We've got these big mortgage renewals that have been going on for the last two years. Some of the biggest ones are happening now. People that had the lowest mortgage rates of all time are right now having to renew at much higher rates. There's worry that that can affect the housing market in terms of people feeling like they have to sell their house. I don't think it's going to go that far for most people. Canadians are pretty good at holding onto their homes, but it is going to affect consumer spending if a lot more of your monthly income is going in interest to the bank.

Maybe that's dinner out once every two months instead of once a week. Maybe it's a used car instead of a new car. Maybe it's a road trip instead of a trip on an airplane. That's going to slow the economy as well.

Shaun M: That's going to be a tough one, road trip versus airplane. They're both going to be jacked, but I still think driving anywhere is still going to be so expensive now because of the gas, if you add it all up. Are you a road tripper or are you a plane tripper?

Shaun C: I've been more of a road tripper. My granny gave me a piece of advice many years ago. She said, "See Canada before you start going and seeing the rest of the world."

Shaun M: Good advice.

Shaun C: We've seen Canada with our kids. I had road tripped, not this year, but in the past, way down into the southern United States, which was fun. That's as far as you want to go in a car. Then, occasionally, we've been over to the West Coast on a plane and to Europe, and that sort of thing. Interesting thing about-- I just read this this morning. The price of the gas pump is incorporated into CPI inflation right now. The price for the increase in jet fuel that's causing airplane tickets to go up is barely being incorporated into CPI at all because it only makes its way into the CPI when the plane takes off, not when people buy the tickets.

That's another one that's coming where people are already spending more money on that now, but it's not even in the inflation numbers just yet.

Shaun M: I see. They're booking flights that are three months down the road, six months down the road. That's when those will start to play into the CPI. Is that right?

Shaun C: Exactly. Maybe we should just take a bike trip.

Shaun M: I think biking is the way to go, man. Biking, walking. I could walk with my kids from Nova Scotia to B.C. We could do it.

Shaun C: I might just stay in the backyard this summer.

Shaun M: No, too many ticks here in Nova Scotia. It's crazy. They're going to try to eat us. Let's talk about trends. We talk about two or three major trends we saw in the first half of 2026. What are the numbers telling us, and what do these trends mean for REALTORS® and their clients?

Shaun C: Sure. At the overall Canada national level, it was a weak start to the year for sales in January, February, March. The thing is, over the last decade, as supply has become more and more and more constrained, the market has become more seasonal because you don't have that big float of listings just hanging around to be able to buy at any given time. You have to wait until they come blasting out in the second week of April, and then people attack them.

I wasn't surprised that it was a weak start to the year. I thought it was really going to get going this spring. Then, of course, now with mortgage rates going up. The April numbers were up a little bit. One of the really neat trends that's under the surface in the daily data that we track, but we don't publish, is the sale-to-list price ratio. You list a house for, say, $700,000, which is the average home price in Canada, and then you negotiate, and maybe you land on $685,000. That ratio is that sale-to-list price ratio.

Now, if you go back a couple of years, you had a lot of sellers still thinking, "I have a million-dollar home." I always said, "Yes, you did for one week in February of 2022. That's long gone." Then you had buyers saying, "At these mortgage rates, I can only qualify for this." They're really far apart. What we're seeing this year is it's getting really close together. Maybe you're negotiating, and it's only a difference of maybe $10,000. The seller's like, "Oh, well, whatever, that's okay." The buyer's a little bit more eager. That means that the number of days on market is falling.

Buyers and sellers are seeing more eye-to-eye these days. Under the surface of some quiet numbers, those trends are really encouraging, and homes are moving faster. I think that part of our forecast of things are going to get going is true. It's just, at this point, it's going to be very muted by other external factors. It's happening under the surface. I think that's the most important trend to watch. The other one is prices are stabilizing. We had a pretty big price decline in January. It got smaller in February. It got smaller in March. Basically, it was flat in April. Those are all positive trends.

Shaun M: That's positive for buyers, for sure. That might activate more activity, I assume.

Shaun C: 100%. If I'm a buyer and I'm buying an asset and I'm putting my down payment down, I don't want to buy one that's going down by $5,000 and $10,000 a month. Price stabilization has always been a super important milestone that I think could really flip a switch and say, "Okay, well, this is the bottom, let's jump in now."

Shaun M: Yes. Talk about any of the major trends that were pretty close to what CREA predicted, and are there any that really surprised you?

Shaun C: Oh, yes. One that is playing out is the idea that some of these places-- In the last number of years, Ontario has been really chilly market; B.C, a little bit less so, but chilly, really dragging the numbers down. In the Prairies, Quebec, and the East Coast were hotter. The prices kept going up. We had multiple offers because they're relatively more affordable. They were able to keep doing that in an era of high interest rates and massive population growth, by the way, too.

Part of our forecast was that B.C and Ontario were going to start to pick up, which has happened, and that some of these hot markets are going to start to cool off because obviously that record population growth that many of these markets had never seen before, that sort of spigot has now been turned off by the government. That element is no longer there, despite rates being a little bit better.

Where that is already playing out is definitely in Alberta. They were the first market to start to roll over and sales went down and prices stopped rising. No surprise because, of all of those other markets, they're the most expensive. Now, we're starting to see a little bit of that, too, in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Maritimes. The surprising one, which you'll like, is Newfoundland and Labrador. Hottest province in Canada right now, double-digit price growth. It's the only a province with double-digit price growth right now, multiple offers.

There's two other cities that are doing that right now. It's Quebec City and Sudbury. The only province that's doing that is Newfoundland and Labrador. I spoke to a reporter in St. John's, maybe a month or two ago, and she asked me the question, "What's the challenge for young buyers right now in a market like this?" I said, "Well, it's easy because we've seen it happen in every other place in the country. You're just doing it now. You're going to show up and say, 'Well, I think we can afford that as our first starter home, and we're going to actually do it.' What you find is there's six other young households, young couples or whatever, that are exactly like you that show up, and they want it too, and there's only one house."

That's how you end up with 12% price growth when people are bidding against each other for scarce listings. The listings in the province currently are at a 20-year low.

Shaun M: Yes, explain that now because we're talking about supply and demand, we're talking about a market that goes hot. Is that because the inventory is low, but there's a demand for Newfoundland and Labrador? Look, what brings people to Newfoundland? There's all these other factors, but why are people flocking to Newfoundland to buy homes if they know, before they go, that there's not that many homes? Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Is that why the market is hot? Is the market hot because people are outbidding each other's multiple offers on low inventory, or is the market hot because there's a lot of new homes that are being built there, people want to go there, all the factors, everything is firing on all cylinders? What is it that makes a market hot like that?

Shaun C: Typically, when you've got strong price growth like that, it's just demand outstripping supply every time. Prices may be going up, but one experience of some of your neighbour maritime provinces is if you got people showing up, then they just sold a place in Toronto, they don't think your market's very expensive. That's a bit of a double-edged sword in a hot market is who's outbidding who.

The way that inventory gets drawn down like that is when you have a lot of first-time buyers because they absorb inventory, but they don't have another one to put on to sell. There's two kinds of first-time buyers. There's typically young people who get older, and finally they come into the market on their own as opposed to living with roommates or their parents or whatever. There's people that come from other countries or other provinces that leave a house maybe there, but they don't put one on in your market. There's a lot of absorption, and it draws that down.

Then what you end up with, the only way that you get price growth in the double digits is if you've got many instances of listings that have multiple offers, that have multiple buyers that want it, and they're going to compete against each other, and they're going to eventually land on the winning price. We've seen it everywhere else, and saw it start in Toronto in 2010. It's just played out across the entire country, and now it's playing out as far east as you can go. It's not surprising at all.

Shaun M: Now, have you looked at a micro of Newfoundland and Labrador? Is it mainly in the urban centers like St. John's and Corner Brook, or is that also around in Labrador or rural? Do you look at that?

Shaun C: The MLS® Home Price Index can break it out into-- In cities, it's neighbourhoods, it's very detailed. Bigger areas in the more rural areas, because you need a minimum data threshold. For Newfoundland and Labrador, there's about 100 regions we can look at in the HPI, and the gains that we're seeing are very, very broad base and generally very, very consistent.

I think there's one resort, or it's one of the really nice neighbourhoods north of St. John's that's got price growth like 20%, but most of them are in that 10% range. It's very consistent. It is very broad-based across the province.

Shaun M: Got you. Let's talk about-- You were saying young, first-time buyers. One of our discussions we were talking about are the sentiment of buyers right now. We interviewed someone from Abacus Data recently, and they were talking about 90% of Canadians under 30, they want to own a home. Talk to me a bit about that. What is the buyer sentiment right now? Are people giving up? Are they throwing their hands up and going, "I can never afford a house, this is too crazy"? Are they still active in the search? What are you seeing out there when it comes to numbers?

Shaun C: Right. That's a tough one. Some people are saying, "I give up," unfortunately. A big part of our advocacy work here at CREA could be distilled down into, we want to restore that pathway to homeownership. What we sometimes hear, when you look at the frustrations of people, say, in their 30s, and their homeownership rate is falling off a cliff, we're not going to know. It's a census data, so it only comes out every five years. I don't know if you got your census. I just did mine.

That data is going to come out next year, and we'll see how much worse it's gotten since 2021. What we sometimes hear is, "Well, young people's expectations for their first home are too high. You're not going to get a four-bedroom, 2,500-square-foot house as your first house." The other one is, "Well, maybe they don't want to own homes anymore." That's some of the work that we did with Abacus Data, was to go out and ask those questions, because we didn't believe that.

It turns out that, as you said, the propensity to want to own a home has not gone anywhere. It hasn't changed, despite the homeownership rate falling off a cliff. That creates a lot of pent-up demand of people that still are out there, piling up. That's what pent-up demand means, piling up, still wanting to get into this market at some point, but haven't been able to. The other thing that we asked them was, "What are your expectations?"

You know what they say? There's a whole list of different stuff that they say, and it breaks out differently, but mostly they say, "I don't need something fancy, and I don't need something big, but it does need to be big enough for me to start a family in, and I want to be a homeowner." A one-bedroom apartment that's a rental is not going to cut it, even though that's what's 40% of our completions right now, is purpose-built rental apartments. It doesn't tick either of those boxes.

A big thing that we've been pushing is, "Hey, if we're going to build more housing, and that's the commitment of the government, let's make sure we do the right stuff." The right stuff is family-sized, medium-density, not low-density like we've built in the past because land's gotten too expensive, but medium-density, family-friendly, and there needs to be a lot of good ownership options because people still want to be homeowners. They want to pay themselves instead of a landlord, and at some point, they want to pay it off. That's where we're speaking with the government, and that's our messaging.

Shaun M: Explain to me medium-density versus low-density for somebody who doesn't understand density. It's too dense. I'm too dense to get it.

Shaun C: Density, it's a measure of basically housing units per acre. A great example of low density would be the houses we built immediately after World War II, big, big, big lot, little tiny house. There's different measures of density about how much of the footprint takes up of the lot, and then how many floors you have, but that's very low density. In the neighbourhood that my grandfather built his house in the 1940s, he got a CMHC plan. He was a carpenter. He built it himself, but he got on a half-acre that's in Ottawa, and one of those half-acres--

They all were smart. They put their houses on one side, right up the front, so they could sell off the rest later. One of those original lots still has the little strawberry box house at the front, and they built 10 full townhomes in the back in what used to be just a backyard. The townhomes now are an example of medium-density use, and these are bigger than the original house on that lot, and there's 10 of them. I don't think people are too squished in like sardines. You're not going to have as big of a front and a backyard, but when that front and the backyard is now costing $600,000 and $700,000, part of the solution of getting young people into a first home is it's not going to have that much land under it.

The thing is, we've really stopped building that low-density stuff starting about 20, 25 years ago. We built a lot of high-rise apartments and really nothing in the middle. It's why they call it the missing middle. That term was coined 16 years ago, and everyone at these conferences--

Shaun M: Missing middle.

Shaun C: Missing middle, to talk about medium-density home types. Everyone at these conferences you go to for years, "Missing middle, missing middle," everyone nods their head. We didn't really build any of it. I see it as an opportunity. I think that we need to take the lessons of the post-World War II period. People say we need to build like post-war. Definitely not the home types we did back then, but the urgency. We can take inspiration from the urgency because we have that now.

I think we could look to before World War II, when cities were much more walkable because, guess what? People were walking. The mass adoption of personal automobiles was not really until after the war. It's why we spread out so quickly and so low density. It's really the fault of the car, quite frankly. Well, you can also look to the '70s and '80s when interest rates were very high. We did build a lot of really affordable type, medium density, small, simple townhomes and big apartments. I think that that's really the kind of home type that if we could get back to, I think it makes the most sense. The problem is it doesn't make the most money for developers, clearly, because it's never been done. I think that's where there's a role for policy to start to steer the building industry in that direction.

Shaun M: Can you remind us again what the rates were back in the 70s and 80s that everybody talks about?

Shaun C: Oh, boy. Here's the thing about that. I think we're close to the same age. Here's the thing. If you're a younger Gen Xer like I am or an older millennial, you learn the lesson at some point to never talk to your baby boomer parents about mortgage rates because you'll have to hear that old story again about what they paid in 1981. It's like, I know, Mom, 17%. Double digits.

Honestly, when I talk about the Bank of Canada aggressively attacking inflation from this oil shock, that is the lesson from the 1970s when they didn't do that and they let inflation go up and up and up and chased it and chased it and chased it, but they never got on top of it for a decade. That's how you ended up with that. That's what the Bank of Canada is trying to avoid by doing what they might have to do later this year. Yes, they were high, but home prices were a lot lower. I think I'd rather have a higher asset price and pay less interest to the bank personally. It's why a lot of baby boomers have made such a huge capital gain on their home, because the value has gone through the roof as rates have come down over the last 40 years.

Shaun M: Yes, compared to what it was, man. It's one of those things where I feel like as I talk to my kid now, my little child who is six and four years old, about a phone that used to be plugged into the wall that you were tethered to your house. You couldn't make a phone call unless you came back to your house. That concept is so far removed from their minds that I feel like interest rates at 17%, 18% are similar to some people like, wait, what? That never was real, but yes, it was.

Shaun C: It was.

Shaun M: Let's talk about supply for a minute. I want to talk about supply. What's the national story on inventory looking like across the board?

Shaun C: Sure. When you add everything together and say this is the Canada number. Number of months of inventory is five, which is exactly in line with the long-term average. You couldn't be more Goldilocks if you tried. The problem is there's virtually not a single market in the country where that's the case. It just sort of happens that when you aggregate it together, it looks that way.

That's why we always say there's no Canadian housing market. What you have really is lots of inventory in Ontario, although still less than they had in the '90s, quite a bit in B.C., that's why those markets are cooler and still pretty low on the Prairies and in Quebec and the East Coast. Including some places like I think Quebec, and also like I said, Newfoundland and Labrador, that are at two-decade lows still, which some of those other places were previously. That's where that story of some of these hot markets are starting to turn, they're starting to build up a little bit. I always say that's a good thing. That's where you don't want to be a hot market. If you have 10 young buyers looking for that first home, you want to have 10 homes to sell them, not to have a battle royale for one.

We're starting to move in that direction, but the overall supply is a stock variable. Monthly variables, like how many sales sell inside a month or how many listings come out from the start to the end of the month, is a flow variable and that can jump around a lot. The overall, the big stock variable moves very, very slowly. To get into this hot market that we've been in that was really starting at the beginning of COVID, it took 60 months from about 2015 down to about 2020 to go from a buyer's market to a seller's market, and where we were reporting every month this slow-moving, you could draw it with a ruler, and now it's slowly moving back up, but it's going to take time.

Shaun M: It takes time, and also, I would imagine government programs help with that. We've got a new government now. Talk to me about these government programs. Is it actually happening? Is it all hot air? What's your feeling about that?

Shaun C: If you go back in the advocacy space on this issue, there's a long time where the government was trying to just restrict mortgage lending and do demand side stuff to reign the market in. At some point, we started saying that some other people going back almost a decade, like maybe you just need to build more houses because you've got all these millennials. It's a huge cohort of people, and our immigration targets are going up every year. We really do need to be building more. That's what the issue is. You can't just continue to make it harder for people to borrow money because they still want to be homeowners.

That took a while to catch on. It was a political issue for a while. Some political parties were like, "Yes, maybe it is." For a while, everyone said, "No, it's not," and then some people started to say that it was. It was the fall election in 2021, where all the political parties said like, "Yes, it's the supply price crisis. We need to build more." That was where it became common knowledge.

Then the next step was you had CMHC, and the parliamentary budget officer started making predictions about how many more houses we needed and there were tehse really high numbers and millions and millions and more with no way to actually get it done, which is kind of depressing. What's interesting about the last year and Build Canada Homes say, and some of the goals of this government, they're saying not only do we have to double construction, they're saying we are going to double construction through these programs. The one I really like is the promotion of offsite building, factory building, modular, panelized, mass timber.

We have this thing in Canada that really affects productivity in the housing sector. It's called winter. If you're building outside, it's really hard to do for half the year. You know that Sweden now has 85% of its new home construction is in factories, it's modular.

Shaun M: No way.

Shaun C: It can be done. There's resistance to it. I know there's been many advances, obviously, but the idea that there's a guy standing outside in January, whacking away with a hammer the way my grandfather did in 1946, I feel like there's a lot of opportunity for-- Where we are now--

Shaun M: Yes, but it's character building. It makes Canada Canada. I know it doesn't solve the housing crisis, but it builds grit.

Shaun C: You don't have the most productive workday when you have to spend the first three hours shoveling off the materials because there's a blizzard. Yes, with some of the programs that's been announced, the money that's going out there, and some of the enthusiasm about some of these opportunities, especially having a revolution in building technology, I'm optimistic.

Shaun M: Are there investments in that? Has that been activated? Are people taking advantage of these programs? Canadian builders, are they responding well to these programs? What are you seeing on that front, or can you see below the surface?

Shaun C: I think when we talk about near-term versus medium and long, I always say that the housing market is like an ocean liner. It takes a long time to get going. It's slow. If you want to steer it, it's a long process. Housing tends to be a medium to long-term thing. This has all been announced last year.

We've had meetings with some of the people in the new agencies. They're definitely scaling up very quickly with the staff that they need to do the research. The studies that they need to figure out how they're going to get this stuff done, where they're going to put it. A lot of that work is being done. I don't know how many shovels are in the ground necessarily, but you can't expect something like that to happen overnight. It was always going to be something where it's like turning the Queen Mary, but at least we're doing it. It's going to take a while to get pointed in that direction and get going in that direction.

Shaun M: Right. It does. Long-term, it's the right way to go. We just got to figure out this whole short-term stuff. How do you see trends in terms of people's reactions to when everybody gets afraid, it's like, uh-oh, do people rush to the market or do people hold back? What are you seeing the behavior like for Canadians right now?

Shaun C: Right. Let's say you're buying your first home, that's a scary thing. Then you're also committing to be able to pay a monthly payment for the next 25 years. When there's uncertainty around, especially with your employment, when the economy's shaky, people definitely go to the sidelines. The irony is that during periods of high uncertainty and fear, what people want the most is a stable home base like your own home. In terms of the market activity that we measure, people moving around and coming into the market for the first time, it definitely keeps people away. Uncertainty. Uncertainty is not a friend of the housing market, that's for sure.

Shaun M: Yes. We talk a lot about consumers, we talk a lot about government, but let's talk about REALTORS®, agents who are out there watching this right now. What if your local market doesn't match national headlines? How does this emphasize the importance of the REALTORS®' local knowledge?

Shaun C: Oh, it's all about local. Even when we drill down to the city, look at Toronto, for example. There's no Toronto housing market either. There's what's going on in the condo market right now in Toronto versus what's going on in the detached side of things. In the last 30 years, no matter whether the Toronto market was up or down, if you got one of those detached homes in Midtown on one of those leafy streets, it's getting 10 and 20 offers. Every single time.

Then you could look at the condo market and say, how's the condo market in Toronto doing? Well, you know what? In the 1970s and '80s, the condos that were built in the city of Toronto, the median size of them was 1,100 square feet, which means that half of them were bigger than that. My parents had an apartment like that. Often told the story, their sectional couch was so huge that when they moved into a detached home, they had to split it between the living room and the basement. Their conversation fondue area or whatever in the '70s.

Are you talking about a 500 square foot thing that was designed to be an Airbnb or are you talking about a 1,300 square foot apartment that you could raise a family in? It's really all about-- it is just so hyper-local that you always have to go to the level of the local expertise of those agents. We just-- our job is to have the view from 10,000 feet that sometimes helps, but to your point, sometimes hurts when people want to ascribe it to what's going on in a particular micro neighbourhood and property type situation.

Shaun M: Within those micro climates, if you will, it's almost like an economic climate within a certain block, are there some regions within a city, for example, that could be hot on this corner and not on this corner?

Shaun C: Oh, yes. It depends on walkable places with great-- Like there's a neighbourhood here in Ottawa where one side of it is a super walkable street with all kinds of shops and restaurants and stuff, and the other side is like-- on the other side of the neighbourhood you cross the big road and it's like a sketchy neighbourhood, but they're right next door to each other. Yes, it really can-- the neighbourhoods are basically defined by those boundary lines that were established years ago where there was a difference in who the builder was or who the people that lived there were.

Then some of the hottest places are the places that used to be-- There's a neighbourhood here in Ottawa called Mechanicsville, these tiny little streets and these skinny little clapboard houses, where all of the workers that used to work down on LeBreton Flats in the train yards and the manufacturing units and the breweries, they all lived in these little tiny things, but now it's being redeveloped. Now, it's like super hot, because it's centrally located. Yes, it's always changing, and I think that's going to accelerate going forward.

One of the things we don't talk about a lot, we talk a lot about development. We don't talk a lot about redevelopment. Canada is a fairly young country. A lot of our homes were built after World War II and most of them are still where they are. They're mostly greenfield development, so they've never been torn down and rebuilt like land everywhere else in the world, but that's coming at some point. An interesting thing is going to be, I think, in my own neighbourhood, which was one of the first track-built neighbourhoods, where one builder built 500 homes. They're all going to age and be deemed tear-downs all at the same time, and so there could be a lot of-- There's not a lot of redevelopment activity yet, but that's--

Shaun M: It's coming.

Shaun C: It's coming. At some point, it has to.

Shaun M: Yes. Well, yes, I just love talking about that. I love talking about the future. I am personally hopeful of the future for Canada. Obviously, I moved back here. I feel comfortable raising my kids here, but-- As you said earlier about how Canada is the number one place for foreign investment because we're a stable, safe country, but when it comes to the real estate market, the short term feels a little bit hairy. What should REALTORS® do to navigate the market on the back half of 2026?

Shaun C: Sure. Well, I guess, if you're representing sellers, it's good news that-- I think one of the difficulties can be trying to convince a seller that their price expectations are out of line with the market. What I'm seeing the data, and that's coming out of the situation that we were in, where prices went so high briefly, and then buyers had so little borrowing power, that's been, in my career, the biggest gap between buyer ability to pay and seller expectations I've ever seen. I think that we're coming close to closing that now.

If you're representing a seller, it should be a little bit easier to convince them when you look around the neighbourhood and start to see, okay, we're starting to have a consensus on that sort of thing. It's the same thing for buyers when they look around and they say, maybe that isn't too much for that house. Maybe that's what they're going for these days. Then they start to move faster, and you see a house that you might want to think of, and then someone snaps it up. That's how markets get going again, especially these cooler ones in Ontario and B.C.

I would just say, I'm not giving advice here, but just to know that trend is playing out under the surface, even though the overall numbers that are published by us are still looking weak at this point, because a lot of people are staying on the sidelines. It's not that those trends are reversing. That's playing out up until like-- we have daily data up until yesterday.

Shaun M: Right. We started this conversation talking about the doom and gloom forecast part of things, but let's talk about the hopeful things. How are you feeling about

everything hinges on global activity and chaos or stability, but what are you seeing within Canada as something that we can focus on the positives, the hopefulness?

Shaun C: Sure. Definitely, what's happened over the last-- I wouldn't just say in the last year. It's been a process to say, okay, we need more homes. How many we need? How are we going to do it? We're at that point now. I think the next phase for us has been, okay, now it's not just, we need 100,000 more units of whatever you can build and wherever you can stick it. It's, let's think about typology or built form. Let's think about ownership tenure. Let's think about where these things go. Let's do what makes sense, not what just makes the most money or makes the most units.

That's where the role for policy is to maybe steer the ship and tilt the luck plane in the favour of builders saying, ah, maybe it does make sense to build that affordable townhome if I get a bigger break on my development charges, or if there's a CMHC program that was getting a lot of this thing built over here, rental apartments, rents are down, vacancies are up. Maybe that program can now build something over here that we need. Stuff that we've never tried.

A huge opportunity in my view. Last time we talked was 16 months ago, and I was still really big on the factory-built stuff. I thought that was the big idea. Then the new government said, like, "Yes, good. What else you got?" From an advocacy standpoint, you can't just keep talking about that one. I think the next big one that I'm really excited about, there's people talking about it, but I think it's bigger opportunity than what people are talking about is downsizing options for people like my parents' age and a little bit younger. We're not building a lot of new family homes, but there's a ton of family homes out there in the existing stock that are great in great neighbourhoods. The further in and the older the neighbourhood, the more likely they'd be like mine. I don't know how it breaks out between young families and older empty-nesters, but I can tell you they're closing schools down and consolidating schools because there's not a lot of kids. Meanwhile, where my wife teaches out in the suburbs, the schools are overflow. They got 20 portables. They can't build them fast enough.

I got to always be careful with this one. The first really big group of population Canada has ever seen is the younger baby boomers, so people that are in their 60s right now. They're probably not in that age where they're looking to downsize yet, but the problem for that is there are a lot of people that do want to downsize. They say, "There's nothing for me because I don't want to go live in a downtown condo and I'm not going to buy another big house on the ground like a bungalow, but I need the single floor." The main thing they say is, "I want to stay in the community I've just lived in for the last 40 years. I don't want to leave my community."

I think there's a huge opportunity to not just build family-friendly homes for the young set, but to build great downsize options in communities for people that are looking to downsize, that want to take that money out of their home for their retirement, that want single floor living, that don't want to be shoveling snow and doing maintenance, but still want to be able to go out and walk to their same grocery store and pharmacist and all that.

I think big apartments, that's low hanging fruit. That's a low density area. It's the way we built buildings back in the '60s and '70s. We dotted them here, there, and everywhere. They weren't all downtown. You could do that again in every neighbourhood. Nice big apartments, whether it's for someone who's downsizing, or when they do that, then you start to free up some of that existing stock.

I always make the point, my bedroom that I grew up in has been gathering dust since 1998. No one's using that. My parents are the type of people that are like, "We're emotionally attached to this house. This is where we're staying until the bitter end." I think a lot of people feel that way, but there's also a lot of people who say, "I want to downsize, and I want to take this $500,000 tax-free and put it in my pocket for my retirement."

The thing is, big apartments in existing neighbourhoods would also be a great entry point for young families that can't afford something on the ground in some of these more expensive places and start to get more kids back into these existing neighbourhoods where, like I said, the schools, they had no enrollment and everyone's getting pushed out to the suburbs. I think that's a huge opportunity. It's not just building family-friendly stuff for the exurbs, for the young people. It could just be something that precipitates a reallocation of the existing stock sooner than it would happen naturally if people just stayed in their house until they were 85 because there was nowhere else for them to go even though they wanted to. That trend will happen in 15 years from now. If you start building some of that options now, you could get some of that going now. That's a huge opportunity.

Shaun M: You could accelerate it. Let me ask you this. Have you looked at any of the data showing that these empty nesters are looking for that very specific kind of home? Is there a lot of downgrade momentum happening?

Shaun C: I think there has to be. I think that a lot of people are millionaires and it's all locked up in their house. It's a house that is getting harder and harder to maintain, that they don't use all of. It's got to be there on some level. I say it's always tricky because I'm not saying to anyone that you should downsize. I'm saying if you want to. It's just like we never say that anyone should be a homeowner or want to be one versus a renter, but we're saying if you do want to be one, we want to help facilitate that. This is the same sort of thing.

The biggest thing you hear is, "I want to stay in my community." Those options aren't dotted around in those communities. We've never had this giant cohort of people that are in that life stage. The baby boomers are the first big group to do everything. In the '60s, it was [unintelligible] Woodstock. In the '70s, it was, I guess, Disco. In the 80s, it was Yuppies. Then they started to have kids. Then they were middle-aged. They're the first big group to do all of those things. Now they're the first big group to hit that stage of life where you're in your 70s, moving towards your 80s.

The number of people we have in their 80s right now are very small compared to the boomers that are coming because they're members of what's known as the silent generation. They were born from the start of the Great Depression to the end of World War II. It wasn't a huge boom time for having kids, obviously. Then the big boom came later. There's this tidal wave of population that's coming towards that age range. It will be a big turnover of the existing housing stock, which I think will solve a lot of the problems we have because it'll turn that stock back over and become available in much larger numbers for the people who need it. I think that there could be a way to make that happen faster as part of this what we're going to build and where we're going to build it conversation that we're in right now.

Shaun M: I would like to see the trend of young, fresh out of university partiers meet up in a shared accommodation with the empty nesters who want to get back to those old days of partying. I mean, that would be one cool house. Would you support that if I could get it going?

Shaun C: Oh, I feel like this new generation is a little bit different than we were. We were on a camping trip last year with some of our friends sitting around the campfire, and there was some young, they must have been close to 20 years old, crew on the campsite next to us. It was only about 9 o'clock, and we were like, oh, it's really quiet over there. They already went to bed. Our friend, it wasn't my thought. Our friend said, "Yes, these young people are different. They don't sit out, drink a beer around the campfire. They just take a gummy and go to bed." I don't know if it would be the same sort of thing, but maybe.

Shaun M: Well, that sounds cohesive, like with the empty nesters and then just take a gummy, go to bed. They could enjoy their lives together and share the cost.

Shaun C: They don't get driver's licenses either.

Shaun M: Maybe I'll work on that. Shaun, man, what a great catch-up, bud. This has been good. I'm so happy to catch up with you. I know that the world is in a bit of a tipsy-turvy place, but hearing the data and hearing the numbers really helps clarify our path forward. No matter which way it goes, thank you for all of your knowledge and sharing it. No matter how many comments you get in the comment section saying, "You said it was going to be good, and that was bad." We still love you. We just want you to know we love you.

Shaun C: Oh, thanks, Shaun. Yes, it's been great catching up. I have a lot of fun talking about the policy stuff and the advocacy stuff that's a little bit further out because that is the optimistic part. As far as what's going to come in the next year, that's really out of our control. It's just my job to measure the numbers and say what's going on and roll my eyes and say, maybe this'll be the last crisis for a little while.

Shaun M: Yes, but I do think it's cool, no matter which way you swing on the political scale, our new prime minister, I like what he says about we can only control what we can control. You know what I mean? Focusing on that, taking care of that, and that helps us forward. Again, thank you so much, Shaun Cathcart, Chief Economist for CREA. We look forward to our next chat. Let's make it sooner than 16 months, bud.

Shaun C: Sure thing.

Shaun M: By then, your puppy will be grown up a little more. I know you have a new puppy.

Shaun C: My puppy will be, hopefully, grown up a little. I have a new puppy, yes. Very new. The waking up in the middle of the night, I haven't had to do that with kids for 15 years. I thought it wouldn't be that bad, but it's a lot harder when you're closing in on 50 than when you're 30.

Shaun M: Yes, it is. It is. Well, I started late with my kids, so I'm going through puppy and baby stuff all at the same time.

Shaun C: Rough.

Shaun M: Yes, woof. All right, man. Thanks so much.

Shaun C: Sure. Until next time.

Shaun M: Mr. Shaun C, thank you so much. What a great conversation, a great catch-up. Always, his insights help me and I hope you navigate this wild world of the housing market in Canada. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you did, please let us know by giving us a rating and a review on wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, production brought to you by Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder, and I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME. Peace.

REALTORS® are deeply connected to the communities they serve, which makes them especially valuable in helping others feel at home in a new community. Their deep local knowledge can help meet the needs of buyers with unique circumstances such as, professional athletes, military relocations, or those looking for short-term properties.

In this episode, Dame Linda Pinizzotto, Jesse Robertson, and Ali Worsfold share how they support niche clienteles with intricate considerations ranging from privacy, to timing, to international exchange rates. Learn how these REALTORS® navigate challenges, build trust, and help their clients feel at home, even if it’s just for a short while. 

Transcript

Jesse Robertson: From flash to bang, five to seven days to land on the ground and leave with an accepted offer, inspections done, all of that. 

Shaun Majumder: What? Yes, of course-- 

Ali Worsfold: Small towns, you know? I had my wild 20 years-- 

Shaun: Welcome to Rossland. Have you met the queen of Rossland? 

Ali: All hail-- 

Dame Linda Pinizzotto: Okay. 

Shaun: You know, being a host of REAL TIME, I've learned so much about all aspects of real estate, but today, we're going to talk about something very specific: niche markets in real estate. With those niche markets come very specific niche REALTORS®. Today on the show, we're going to be talking with Jesse Robertson, who deals specifically in the military world, and our amazing military having to relocate, how do they find houses? How do they find accommodations, and what kind of time frame do they have to deal with? Then we're going to be talking to Ali Worsfold, who works in the vacation rental/purchasing market out west in beautiful British Columbia. Then we're going to be talking to Dame Linda Pinizzotto. She is-- Yes, she is a dame. She has been knighted, and she works with athletes, and sometimes movie stars. 

You guys all represent very specific groups in the game of real estate. You guys are all dealing with and working with niche clients, and I want to talk about that today, because that's something that gets really down into the details, and I love it. Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don't we start by going around the table, if you will, and telling us what your niche is and how you got into it. Why don't we start by-- Well, first of all, I think we have to give the lead to Dame Linda, who actually, I found out, you have been knighted. I mean, I ain't going to mess with you. I ain't going to mess with you. 

Ali: She gets to go first all the time. 

Jesse: That's right. 

Shaun: Yes, everything-- 

Ali: All hail-- 

Shaun: Dame Linda. First of all, tell me about that. How did you get knighted? Like, that's amazing. 

Linda: In March of 2010, I felt that the Condominium Act, the provincial legislation was wrong, and it hadn't been updated since 1998. I made the decision to create the Condo Owners Association of Ontario, and I challenged the provincial government, the McGuinty government. It took two years for them to open up a review, I sat in all the stages of the review-- It is a nonprofit, I funded it from day one. By 2015/2016, I ended up finally getting our wish-- property management companies had to be licensed. I decided at three o'clock in the morning, I woke up, and my husband said to me, "What are you doing?" 

I said, "I'm going to start a nonprofit." 

He's like, "Go back to sleep." 

I said, "You know what? This is really important." 

I was government relations chair for eight years for the Real Estate Board, and vice president, and I got to go to Parliament Hill, Queen's Park, and so on. Anyway, as a result of all those initiatives, the military came along, the Order of St. George, and I was knighted as a Dame of the Order. 

Shaun: We are honored to have you at our table, Dame Linda. Tell me about your niche. You've done amazing things. You are now a part of the Jedi Council as well. Tell me about your niche and what you focus on right now in the Toronto market, and probably beyond, but let's start there. 

Linda: Well, my niche is pretty much diversified. I have actually entered every market you can imagine. I'm flexible, honestly. All of my business is referrals and people that I've met and worked with over the years. 

Shaun: You also are very specific with athletes, right? Working with athletes, bringing them into town, helping them find new places, and I'm sure you work with entertainment people as well. Tell me a bit about that market. 

Linda: Okay. This is a really weird, crazy story, how it came about. I used to be with Eleanor Fulchers when I was a teenager. I was into modeling, and then I added real estate into the picture when I was 19. Interestingly enough, in 2000, what happened was Eleanor Fulcher called me and asked me to go to IMTA, International Model, in order to perform, which was in Hollywood, and it was amazing. I actually won three out of six competitions, and when I came back, I got invited everywhere under the sun. And so this whole new life of the Downtown Core started to be coming into play, because I was-- You know, Kelvim Escobar, I met him at his birthday party, for instance. 

From there, it went to the different teams, and different developers, and whatnot, and then I was buying the condos. So, the market kind of switched from being this mom who had all her kids in hockey here in Mississauga, and of course AAA, high-level hockey and junior hockey, into being Linda-- Not Linda Pinizzotto, Linda the REALTOR®, you know? I had these multiple hats, and it was-- Yes, it's word of mouth, so once you get into the sports world, it pretty much continues. I got into the media world, they started knowing more about me, the COA pushed things even further. With the athletes, it's pretty exciting. A very close friend of mine, actually, Susan Stewart, she ended up-- she was in the Olympics. So, yes, it's kind of like you get a snowball, and it's a tiny little snowball. All of a sudden, it starts rolling and growing and growing. Next thing you know, you look back and you think, "Wow, how did that happen?" 

Shaun: Which teams do you work with now? 

Linda: That's the interesting part, because with the teams, we're locally. Most of the time, it's the Jays and the Leafs and the Raptors, but local, because they're looking for local accommodations. Believe it or not, I was involved with Wisconsin way back when, helping one of the-- because I know a lot of the scouts as well. But the level of things have changed. Like, they switch all around, if you know what I mean. Because in the sports world, you get your first round picks, and your second rounds, and thirds, and fourths. Like I said, there's a whole internal story on sports that a lot of people don't totally understand in the way it all manifests itself as far as the income levels, so depending on the income levels is the key. That's why the diversity of where they're going to stay and whether or not they have family-- do you see what I mean? Some athletes, believe it or not, get married very young. Other ones don't. 

But that opened another door, because what happened is when athletes left their system and came back home, they're not actively playing anymore, but they are in the world. Until they can get organized with permanent housing, they need short-term housing. 

Shaun: Right. That sounds amazing. You're dealing with multi-level, different incomes, different locations, all these different demographics. It sounds wild and complex, and I love that. We'll come back to that. Let's go on to Ali. Ali, you are not yet knighted, but you will one day. I'm very confident about this. 

Ali: I can't believe I have to follow that. 

Shaun: I know, right? 

Ali: I'm eight months in, okay? 

Shaun: So, you're fresh-- Like, you're fresh into the market. 

Ali: I just started, yes. 

Shaun: Amazing. Welcome. 

Ali: Thank you. 

Shaun: I'm not even a part of-- this is the only thing-- I bought houses, but I'm also now a podcast guy with you. So, tell me more. You're now in that market, but what is your specific niche in terms of the clients you deal with and the market you deal with? 

Ali: We're based out of a small brokerage in Rossland, British Columbia, so it's kind of in the southern interior of BC. We're right on the USA border, we're right on the border with Washington State, so for us, because we're also home to the fourth largest ski resort in Canada, as you can imagine, it's just-- businesses bustling up there right now, it's crazy. For me, the niche that I've fallen into is selling these vacation properties. Also, another thing that fell onto my plate when I started real estate is short-term rental property management. That was something that fell onto my plate basically as soon as I joined this brokerage. It was an opportunity that I couldn't pass up because, as you know, as a new REALTOR®, you're not really making money for a while. Like, it's a grind, and I have a son, and I have bills to pay, too. Also, not only just that, but it's just such good experience. 

Honestly, throughout this last winter, all I was doing was basically short-term rental property management. It is so busy up here in the winters, and as I mentioned, it's just so good for my real estate career as well. So, meeting new people, learning the ins and outs of these homes, learning so much because, to be honest, going into real estate, I really didn't know that much. 

Shaun: Right. Well, what came first? The management, or the actual buying and selling, the real estate side? 

Ali: The real estate. I took my course, so I became licensed in BC. That's through UBC Sauder School of Business. I did all of that. I worked in local government before for about 13 years. I worked for the City of Rossland for seven years, I worked for the City of New Westminster for two and a half years, very fresh out of high school, like 19, till I was 32. Having that experience also helps in real estate, for sure. But then it was always in the back of my mind to get into something different, because I'm not a 9:00 to 5:00 office kind of gal, especially living where I live. I want to go biking, I want to go skiing, I want to go hiking. I don't want to sit in an office 9:00 to 5:00, Monday to Friday. Now I just work seven days a week, so-- 

Shaun: That's amazing. 

Ali: Now it's just all the time. 

Shaun: Yes, and I love that. What a better way to learn the ins and outs by immersing in every individual property. I mean, you've got to manage these properties, it just makes you-- on the foundation level, you know everything. 

Ali: Totally. 

Shaun: That's amazing. 

Ali: I was born and raised here too, so I know everyone-- 

Shaun: Oh, come on. 

Ali: Yes. Rossland's a small town of about 4,000 people, so I basically know everyone, which can be good and bad. 

Shaun: Yes, of course. 

Ali: Small towns, you know? I had my wild 20 years, but-- 

Shaun: Welcome to Rossland. Have you met the queen of Rossland? 

Ali: All hail-- 

Ali: So, good and bad. You know, we all have our moments in our 20s and whatever else- 

Shaun: Yes, of course. That's hilarious. 

Ali: -but mostly, it's been really good. The community support has been unreal, so yes, I'm just grateful. Like I said, I'm very grateful to have had the short-term rental property management opportunity fall on my lap because it's made me busy and it's given me a lot of learning opportunities, so-- Yes, it's been good. 

Shaun: That's great. We're going to dig down deeper and talk about community and all that kind of stuff, but let's move on to Jesse. Jesse, what's your niche, and are we going to go to the moon together, you and I? 

Jesse: Shaun, I would love to. Yes, I would totally be up for whatever, but-- Yes, I'm a military veteran, so my previous life before I got into real estate was in the Canadian Armed Forces. 

Shaun: Thank you for your service. Yay-- 

Jesse: My pleasure, Shaun. It was a cool job. I was very honored to wear the flag on my sleeve. I deployed three times, went to Afghanistan once, went to Iraq twice, and in a lot of different capabilities. Amazing experience, no regrets. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It definitely helped form who I am now, and gave you a frame of reference on what actually a bad day looks like. 

Shaun: What was your specialty? What was your job, if you don't mind me asking? 

Jesse: Yes. I was posted to Petawawa my first five or six years I was in the military, so in the Ottawa Valley. Paratrooper, so I jumped out of planes, did recce, reconnaissance stuff. Definitely challenged myself and put my hand up for all the courses, and wasn't too scared of a challenge, so-- Loved it, met a ton of awesome people, then deployed to Afghanistan in 2010. Came back from that and bought my first house up in Petawawa, and that was kind of what started. I was 30 years old when I bought my first one, and then I just kept going on to courses and doing more training and more qualifications in the military. 

I ended up trying out for human intelligence, which was a plain clothes, behind-the-scenes type unit in Kingston, Ontario. That got me posted down to Kingston, and I loved it. I did two tours in that capability to the Middle East. Amazing experiences as well, just very different, and my back-- just from wear and tear over the years, my back was not the best. I was popping 16 Advils a day just to get through the day, and so-- 

Shaun: Oh, my goodness. 

Jesse: You know, at 37, 38 years old-- not old, but then you're just kind of like, "At what cost? What am I doing this for?" I was already flipping houses between tours to supplement some income, and also, it just was a passion of mine already, and-- 

Shaun: That's awesome. 

Jesse: Yes. I had my retirement party on the Friday from the military, and everybody sent me off, which ended up being a pretty wild night. Then on the Monday, battling a bit of a hangover from that weekend on Monday morning, suit and tie, day one at RE/MAX Finest Realty in Kingston, Ontario. 

Shaun: And here you are. 

Jesse: And here I am. Super steep learning curve right away, but definitely, just the network you build up in the military of people that you trust and work alongside and cheer for-- the veteran community across the country is quite supportive, and everybody wants to see veterans who venture out after their service succeed. I would say that just leaning on that network initially helped a huge amount. Just so grateful for everybody in the military who reached out, now that I was into real estate, to trust that I had their best interests in mind. It's been awesome. 

Shaun: Working directly with veterans, working directly with military to help find housing for them? Is that-- 

Jesse: That's what I kind of-- I broke into that market, and just being that veteran has helped with that. Yes, so now my specialty, I would say probably 75% to 80% of my business a year are government relocations for military members who are posted into or out of Kingston, because promotions and different jobs all kind of come with, "Hey, if you want to be a colonel, you have to go to Ottawa for two years," or "If you want to be a commander, you have to do this job." That requires sometimes families to relocate across the country, or even outside into the States or Europe, so I help a lot of people come from-- they call them OUTCANs all over Europe, if they're coming to, or vice versa. That, I would say, is my specialty, and I love every second of it. It definitely comes with a ton of challenges, but it's been excellent. 

Shaun: That's amazing, man. What a great story, but you're not a knight. 

Jesse: No, not at all. 

Shaun: I'm just saying-- I'm going to let Linda have that flex. 

Jesse: Linda's a legend. 

Shaun: A legend, yes. 

Jesse: No, nowhere close. Yes. 

Linda: Thank you. 

Shaun: Linda, let's come back to you now. I want to talk a bit about just this idea of the challenges of short-term, knowing that these people are coming in short-term. What challenges does that pose for you as you're looking and thinking about beginning to the end game? Let's talk a bit about that. 

Linda: To be honest with you, after all this time, it's really easy-peasy. It's kind of like, right at the beginning, you've got to know exactly what their needs are. They don't want to be traveling across the city to go get anywhere. Even some of the players that are coming in to be drafted, by the way, I've actually looked after them as well, and their families, their parents that are coming in because they are going to be drafted. 

Shaun: Yes. Tell me about that. I want to hear more about that. I want to hear more about that example of somebody-- Is there a real-world story of somebody who came in, and-- Because you're not just dealing with one prospective player, but you're dealing with their family-- 

Linda: Right. Exactly. 

Shaun: That's amazing to me. Talk to me about that. 

Linda: I'll pinpoint one, the Nylanders. I was introduced to the Nylanders because, of course, all three of my sons got into pro hockey. They just moved up the ladder, so that opened another door again. What happened was I was introduced to the parents, and they needed accommodations because, of course, their son is going to get drafted. Now, the key thing is, their daughter is into tennis. Now, a former Olympian tennis player is a client of mine, and she actually rented one of my properties, and she was going to now be the tennis instructor for his daughter. It's so crazy how things work out. 

The other key thing was to stay safe and close by to where the exhibition grounds are, because of practices, and this and that, and so on. Because, of course, he's still playing at that level. He hadn't been drafted, and as you know his name and so on, he's done extremely well, had a phenomenal career today. What happens is that you don't always have that. It really depends on how that door opens up within an organization, regardless of which sport it is. It can move around from whether or not-- In baseball, it's the base coaches, it can be the manager. Do you know what I mean? It can be the coaching staff, or it can be the actual player, so it's not always necessarily the player. Again, it goes with their needs, and their needs are extremely important, because they're only actually going to be in these properties a very limited time because they're off traveling quite consistently. 

Shaun: Right. So, do they come back-- If they're going to come back for the next season, for example, what kind of time frame are we talking about? Are they in for six months? Is it an eight-month contract? Is it a year, and then they just kind of say, "Oh, well, I'll keep that place till I come back next season"? How does that work? 

Linda: They don't really keep their place. When O-Dog got his, it was funny, it was actually a listing that I had-- 

Shaun: Who's O-Dog? 

Linda: Orlando Hudson.  

Jesse: Orlando Hudson, yes. 

Linda: Orlando Hudson, yes. He's a character. Oh my God.. 

Shaun: I love that. 

Jesse: He was a good ball player too. 

Linda: Oh, heck of a starting baseman. Amazing, yes. He was ideal, because honestly, he would set me up for tickets anywhere. Before you know it, I was getting tickets to go to this thing, and that thing, and here, and there, and whatever else. It was awesome. 

Shaun: I love it. 

Ali: That's amazing. 

Linda: Yes, he was pretty cool, and his wife and kids, wonderful. I got to meet the entire family. It really depends on how private the athlete is, because everybody has a different temperament. Some of them love to be out there, and they'll sign the minute they come out all the time, no problem. Where is everybody? Where are the kids? Let me sign for them immediately. 

Shaun: It's not like location-- You know, you hear about location, location, location. Obviously, I'm thinking, if you're going to be Downtown Core, most of the athletes or staff, do they want to be close to the venues of their work? Or do they want to be a little bit outside, to understand that they don't want to be in the cluster? What's the general approach? 

Linda: It depends on the buildings. The buildings are extremely important, because you can have a cluster of buildings in the main core, which would put you, say, from Spadina over to Blue Jay's Way. Then you have what's called the CityPlace, which is just south of there. There's no comparison between that when you're talking about, for instance, the Element, or the Icon, or those buildings, you see? That tends to be really important. They seem to want to be more in a more of an upscale, quieter kind of a surrounding, versus the club district type of a momentum, yes. 

Shaun: Even the younger cats, the new recruits? They all want to be-- 

Linda: Well, years ago, they used to like to hang out at System Soundbar and shmooze. 

Shaun: Oh, I loved System-- 

Linda: I'm throwing these out because you probably know Easy & the Fifth-- 

Shaun: I do. Ali talked about, "Oh, yes, you know, in the 20s, whatever, we had some things like that." Those were my experiences at System Soundbar. Anyway, I digress  

Ali: Sounds like a fun time. 

Shaun: Oh, it was amazing. Ali, talk a bit about the challenges of the short-term, or is that a blessing for you? I mean, it's almost like you know you're going to turn them over, the short-term rentals, but then you also have the vacation purchasers. Talk a bit about that, and the challenges of that. 

Ali: When it comes to short-term vacation rentals, people are checking out our website. We have a plethora of photos for every single unit that we're renting out, we have all the descriptions updated, all the information in those listings, so people are able to make an informed decision when they're making their bookings. I guess the one difficult thing is with our area, because we are pretty much in the middle of nowhere. The closest international airport to us is Spokane, which is two and a half hours away in Washington, so we're not super close to an international airport. 

We are a bit in the middle of nowhere, and so when it comes to transportation, that's definitely something that we want to communicate with people. Especially if they're coming from Europe or somewhere far away, and they've never been to RED before, just to kind of give them a heads up. Like, "Hey, transportation here isn't great. You're probably going to shuttle in from the airport in Spokane, and then you're going to have to typically be able to find your way around." There is a ski shuttle now in the winter, thankfully, that we have from RED Resort into the town of Rossland. But if you're coming in the summer months to bike-- By the way, we just opened up a new bike park last summer, which is amazing, but to date, we still don't have a shuttle from RED ito town in the summer. It's just one of those typical small-town area things, where it's like you can't just usually call up a cab even. Like, we have a cab, but sometimes it doesn't show up. 

Shaun: Sometimes Frank is busy. Sometimes Frank is busy. 

Ali: It's small here, right. 

Shaun: Sometimes Frank is busy. 

Ali: Totally. 

Shaun: Okay, so those are rentals, but who owns those rentals? Let's talk about that. The purchaser of that, and you finding the right people that-- Is it high demand, and what are the numbers like? What's the inventory like? 

Ali: Right now, we're actually in the beginning phases of huge development at RED Resort. A building was just constructed, it has 102 units. That was completed in 2024, and they are studio, loft, and one-bedroom units. I actually own one of them. It is right at the base of RED Resort, and most of the buyers are American. Like I mentioned, we are two hours from Spokane, Washington, so with the strong US dollar on our side, we are just flooded with people from Washington, from Idaho, from California, even out East. It's beneficial for both the real estate market for us as REALTORS®, and also for the short-term vacation rental market, because people are coming up and vacationing, and it's at a discount to them. Same with purchasing. You're buying a $350,000 studio suite Canadian, and that's $250,000 US. 

Shaun: Getting back to the people that you deal with, the clients, 80% of your clients are military-- 

Jesse: Yes. 

Shaun: Talk to me about that. Give me some scenarios of where you might have somebody who is overseas, they're returning, or they get transferred. Talk to me a bit about that, and some of the challenges you see with short-term. Because a lot of people don't know how long they're going to be in Kingston, or Petawawa, or anywhere, so talk about that. What are those challenges, and how do you manage those challenges? 

Jesse: Yes, great question. I would say-- An example, I got a call on the weekend from a family over in Europe, and they just got kind of an emergency-- Well, not an emergency, but it just got known to them that they are now posted back to Kingston this posting season, and so very little time to react. I would say right off the bat, that would be their first hurdle, is you're doing an international move on a very, very short timeline, and you have to report for duty here in July. That's a lot, especially when you're talking about kids, schools, moving. All your goods and effects are going to be in a sea can coming across on a boat for six weeks, so you're not even going to have any goods and effects. You'll be in a hotel for a month and a half until your stuff actually arrives. 

Buying vehicles is going to be a thing, getting the kids set up for school, camps, any of that in the summer will be a thing. Budget-- A lot of the times when people go in the States or Europe, they're there renting. They're not there to buy, so they have saved up some money. So it's a little bit better situation for them when they come back on a house hunting trip to actually purchase. However, sometimes if somebody's coming from Petawawa, which is a very small market, the average price may be $350,000 to $400,000 for a house there. They come to Kingston, or worse, Toronto or Ottawa, where the mean is a little bit higher, that can absolutely affect, A, what their expectations are, what they can afford. What they have in their mind of, "Oh, I want the white picket fence house." 

If you're getting posted from Petawawa to Toronto, it's going to be a very, very different market that you're entering, and you're going the wrong direction. If you're selling in Ottawa, Kingston, or Toronto, and you're going to Petawawa as an example, you're in a really good position, because you're going from a big market to a small. I would say budget, timeline, expectations, all of those things are hurdles that-- You know, just the extra stuff to navigate, but I would say the tight timeline is probably the biggest. 

Shaun: What kind of timeline are you talking? You said July, for example, these families in Europe, they've got to make that transition. Are there any limits that is given to you by the military, for example, to say, "Okay, when they're here, they have to find a house," and how many days are they given? Is that dictated, or is that just a consequence of the fact that they have to be posted and ready to go by X date? 

Jesse: Yes. What will happen is either/or. Like, say I have a client here in Kingston that I brought them in a couple of years ago, and they've just got a call from their career manager saying that they're going to be promoted and posted. Then they call me up and say, "Hey, Jess, I just had a call. Oh, my gosh, I think we have to sell this spring." I would go give them a quick evaluation, tell them everything to do to prep their house to maximize a quick sale for top-dollar. Make a plan with them, a very detailed plan on when everything is going to happen. 

The biggest thing there is, they can't go on their house hunting trip, which lasts about five to seven days for them to go-- The government pays for them to fly to the different city, have from flash to bang, five to seven days to land on the ground and leave with an accepted offer, inspection done, all of that. 

Shaun: What? 

Jesse: That's the gold standard, so it is a pretty tight timeline, and the planning and the preparation is critical to make that a successful operation. If you don't do that, then you're going into day four and five chasing your tail, still trying to look at more houses, and it's not a fun position to be in. That happened to me a couple of times early in my career where I didn't have as many house hunting trips or relocations under my belt, where one spouse-- maybe it's a military couple, and one wants to live in the country, and the other wants to live in a condo downtown, and they love the pedestrian lifestyle. You say, "Okay, I'll play this game for 48 hours." You show them a bunch of rural beautiful properties, and then you show them some awesome condos down by the lake where they're all close to the restaurants, pubs, and beautiful downtown Kingston. By day three, they're still butting heads, and you're like, "Guys, we only have 48 hours to do something here." 

I would say that timeline-- You're trying to get everybody on the same page as quickly as possible. You work for them, so at the end of the day, they are ultimately the client. They have to make the decisions, and they have to be able to live with them. Resale is a big thing, where if they're emotionally getting a little bit exploited because somebody has staged their house so beautifully, but you know it's going to be a nightmare to sell in three years when they get posted again. It's always something just to have that sober second opinion and be like, "Guys, I know that wallpaper is awesome, and those quartz countertops are stunning, but it's on a main street here. There's no backyard, and the layout is not super awesome, so just keep that in mind. That's why it's been on for 112 days. They've had a nightmare selling it, you guys might be facing the same sort of obstacle in three years if you get posted again." So just that resale factor is critical. Just a lot to take in-- 

Shaun: That is pressure. That is insane. There should be a TV show about it, like a reality show about that. 

Jesse: Oh, I've had some good ones, Shaun. It would be fun, yes. 

Shaun: Dude-- Like, you come in that hot, and I have to make that decision. I know whenever I buy a house or-- I've only bought two-- I've been in the process of buying three houses. My first house in LA, and then I moved up to a different house in LA, and then I bought a house in Nova Scotia, but each time-- Dude, the first house was like, we were a year looking. You know what I mean? We wanted to take our time, make sure it was the right place, but your clients don't have that luxury. I imagine they also calculate-- They know, "Okay, this is a unique situation. We know we may not get-- This isn't our retirement home, this is our transitional home," so there might be some settling involved in that, right? 

Jesse: Yes, and that's a great point. I always say that, and that would be one of my first questions: "Guys, what is the intent here? Where are you in your stage of your career right now?" If this is kind of like that last posting, and your intent is to stay here in Kingston, okay, well, then that widens the arc a little bit where it's a little more forgiving. If they want to spend a little bit more, or they want to risk a little bit more, or they want to live 25 minutes north of town and have a little more acreage, got it, because you're not necessarily-- You're still looking at resale, but it's not going to be as critical. If they're in the middle of their career, and they're a sergeant, and they're going to get promoted in two years and be gone, that's where I'd be like, "Guys, I know you don't want to be in town, but there's a couple of neighborhoods sort of close to base and downtown and schools and amenities." 

That is going to be a really-- not an easy sell, but it's just going to be a lot easier way for you to make some money, offload it, because you need that to happen fairly efficiently to be able to book your house hunting trip. If you want to buy something that sits, sits, sits, you can't go and book your house hunting trip and go and buy something else until we firm this up. That's just the other consideration. Because now you're going out to the new city, going and looking at seven houses in the first day, and you have to have a tight-- you know, to line up with a July 15th closing type thing. There's a lot of dominos that have to fall, which-- like you said, some pressure, but the more you do it, you get it down to a well-oiled machine. I have a ton of support here at the brokerage, I also have the best assistant ever. If I didn't have some of that support behind the scenes, I'd barely be able to tread water, to be honest. 

Shaun: I would also imagine that that kind of pressure and that time restraint also lights a bit of a fire and makes people make decisions quickly because they're forced to, but sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes they're just not overthinking, and it's just like, "Okay, no, this is--" I bet you haven't had many clients who've gone back later and been like, "Oh, we got rushed, and now I regret everything," right? My flag would be, I would bet that you do not see a lot of that. 

Jesse: No, I definitely-- Like, I don't do a ton of benches and buses and stuff like that where I'm paying for a ton of advertising. I would say the majority of my business does come from word of mouth and referrals. Just like Linda's world-- a totally different situation, but if she hits a home run for O-Dog or for one of these awesome players, they are going to tell the next person. They don't know what they don't know when they come to town, and it is going to be Linda's name that gets referred. 

The military community is similar in that, where somebody coming in, they don't want to have to worry about interviewing, and screening, and going on all the chat groups and starting from scratch. They're just going to go after somebody that-- Hey, this person had an amazing experience. This person felt really taken care of, they felt like they were at home when they hit the ground. It's already overwhelming and stressful enough, so how do we mitigate that a little bit and make it as stress-free and seamless as possible? I take a lot of pride in that, and I get a lot of referrals for that. 

Shaun: Jesse, you're dealing with sometimes high-stress situations too. So, not only do you have to be, A, time-efficient, get it done right now, but you also have to be that bit of a therapist as well, right? Tell me about that. Then I actually want to get into a little bit of not only being human to human, but then being there after they're settled, and what kind of network you guys can bring to help them beyond that day. Like, anybody who purchases a home, and then all of a sudden you need to know contractors, people want to do renos, plumbers, electricians, you also bring that kind of network as well, right? Jesse, talk a bit about that high-stress situation and how you make it more human. 

Jesse: Definitely, I would say on a day-to-day, I do wear a lot of hats. You've mentioned the therapist thing, well, I would just off the top of my head right now say in the last 18 months, every other listing I was doing, unfortunately, was a relationship going in separate directions, and so-- 

Shaun: Oh, wow. 

Jesse: Right, so it's very difficult, and some are more amicable than others. Some, it's just a mutual thing, and it's like, "Yes, it is what it is. We are going to go our separate directions." I find those ones, they don't really leave money on the table. It's when there's court orders that this person's not allowed to communicate-- You try to book showings or try to deal with a contract together and get everyone on the same page, but people are doing things out of spite. They leave a lot of money on the table, and it's just delay, delay, delay, and it is a lot. And that, especially for somebody like myself, I care. I actually genuinely care about my clients' well-being, and I wear a lot of that, and I do actually want things to go really smooth for them. I know there's going to be good and bad days in our jobs, but as long as my clients are happy, then I'm happy that I've represented them to my highest ability. 

I would say the therapist thing is a real thing. People's expectations, just managing that on a day-to-day is always fun. When the market has been changing as much as it has in the few past years-- COVID was insane, people's expectations there. I find sometimes when you go and do a listing appointment now, people's expectations are sometimes a little bit historic, that they did a few renos when they bout, when it was high, and they still feel it's this, and those are the houses sitting right now for a year on the market market increasing. Expectation management is also very difficult in today's market, but to go with-- As soon as they land, they get situated, it's been a great experience, they still don't know what they don't know, so me, I take a lot of pride in being that initial point of contact. Not to sway anybody in any sort of agenda, but more so just information. 

A lot of military people are used to briefing, and used to commanding and leading, and they want information allowing them to make an informed decision. I've been in that world, I've been part of those briefings, and orders, and all of that stuff, and I know what their expectations are, and even further into the weeds-- even to the point where I'll be like, "Okay, so what's your trade? What do you do in the military?" If somebody is like, "Oh, I'm a colonel in this respective trade or whatever," or "I'm a medic," or "I'm this," I already know the type of person they are. Again, that's a bit of a broad brush, but I have a pretty good understanding of how they operate, just from that world, and so I'll be like, "Okay, I need to bring this, because their expectations are going to be here." 

If you're dealing with a colonel or a general, or somebody who's in charge of a RMC, or a whole unit, or a battle group, that's going to be a lot different than if you're dealing with a master corporal who's in charge of four people in a section. And again, just where they are in their career, how many houses they've bought, their budget, their salary. All of that, it all goes into it, but being that first point of contact and setting them up for success when they hit the ground here, I take a lot of pride in that. Again, just to set them up for success. 

Shaun: Yes. Reading the room, that's a big one. 

Jesse: 100%. That was my job in the military, was reading the room and sizing people up as quick as I could, and communication. 

Shaun: Yes. Linda, with you, you've got skillsets that are vast, but when you think about Jesse's skillset and the kind of things that he is dealing with versus Ali's skillset-- You know, Mountain Town, where it's recreational, it's fun, it's vacation rentals, it's so beautiful there. Which skills-- Are you more of a military, or are you more of a vacation rental, like relaxed, sit by the lake? 

Linda: No, I would love to-- I haven't seen my country home for five months, so it's vacant. You know what? The key thing, I think, with us as REALTORS®, we hold all these hats. The more successful you are in the business, the more hats you hold, because you're the accountant, you're the mortgage, you're the counselor, you're the director, you are in the midst of people that are going their separate ways. There's so many hats that you're wearing with everybody that you deal with, so the ideal is-- Personally, for me, I don't even bring houses into the question yet until I have to sit down with them and find out why are they selling, what is the plan here, what we're trying to do? I need to get into their mind, and then I need to figure out like a Rubik's Cube and say, "Okay, fine, which way is this whole thing going to go, and how's it going to be?" 

When you take all these avenues, the more exposure you have to the market in all categories of pricing, in a variety of different locations, the more you learn. Because you could pick up a house today down the street from me and land, bang, over there in Florida. Okay, price is different, house is different, land is different, country is different, but at the end of the day, we're dealing with a house. 

Shaun: Now, Ali, when you think about people coming through town, you have that benefit, I guess, of people coming through, they rent for a bit, you want them to fall in love with this town, right? You're not just talking about a property, you're talking about a place. It's where you were born, it's where you were raised, now you're facilitating the welcoming of these people, making sure they have a great time. That's a lot of plates you have to spin, and then you have to take care of them while they're there. Talk a bit about that. You have a personal connection with the place, plus you know contractors, plus you know all the-- You know, everybody, all the tradespeople. How important is that to you, and does it change your kind of target of time where you want them to close? Or do you just realize like, "Hey, I want them to fall in love with the place first, then thinking long-term?" Talk a bit about your experience that way. 

Ali: I think, like Linda mentioned, it's just-- First and foremost, the most important thing is to actually get to know these people, and just not make it salesy. Like, I want you to settle in, I want you to enjoy your short-term rental. If you're staying here for two or three months, I want you to enjoy it, let's get to know each other. If they're starting to talk about potentially wanting to buy a place, then cool, we can eventually start talking about that, but I'm not one to put this pressure on anyone. Most of the people that we have coming to visit us, they're just coming for a few days, up to a few weeks, and they just want to have fun. 

That being said, right now, because there is so much going on at the base of RED development-wise, a lot of people are starting to become more curious about it, and our pricing tends to be a bit better than some of the other resorts. So, yes, it's just getting to know these people, understanding their needs. If they want more information about what's going on at RED or anything that's on the MLS, obviously, I'm more than happy to discuss that with them and provide them with all the information that I can, take them on a tour, set up a virtual tour if they've already left, just stuff like that, and then, yes, just let them know-- I'm always telling all of my clients and customers and guests that I am local, I was born and raised here, and so, love taking you around, show you all the secret spots, giving all the recommendations. 

Shaun: Does that make them lean in a little more too, when they hear that? 

Ali: Totally, yes. 

Shaun: Now, they're like, "Oh, I need to know everything about the place." 

Ali: Yes, for sure. When I tell people that I was actually born and raised here, that definitely is a game-changer. You know, my dad was here forever, my mom was born here-- Like, all my family's been around forever, so being in a small community, I feel like that is definitely beneficial for me, so that's been really great. Yes, just knowing all the contractors, knowing cleaners, knowing people that can come and clean gutters out for my clients, come do lawn work, do whatever my clients need, that's been very helpful, too. Just having all of those connections already, I can tell that a lot of people very much value that. 

Shaun: Linda, do you have the same kind of thing with your network, or are there people on your team that deal with that, and it's not so much a you personal thing? Because-- I mean, Toronto, we're going from a small town to one of the biggest markets in North America, so how do you manage that when you deal with, "Oh, this broke down, that broke down"? Is it all within the buildings, or is that something that you feel you have a responsibility for? 

Linda: Yes, like goodwill returns. For me, I've coached basketball teams, baseball teams, and so I find that when you're talking about community, you want people that you're working with, you want-- A lot of times, they come and they have children, or maybe themselves, they want to play pickleball, because it's like the in-game. So, as a REALTOR®, you need to stay involved with community, without a doubt. There's just so much more that REALTORS® can commit to and help to create a better situation in all communities because they're involved. I think that that's a really important mentality to have in our industry, but it's not common. I'll tell you, it is not common. The industry has changed a lot, talking about social media, and AI, and this and that, and here and there, and California with the shows and whatever. The basis of our industry is helping people, helping them, helping their families, helping their lives, helping them get settled, open up a door for their future with financial investment, is where-- and I'm so pleased to be on this panel today with all of you, to be able to express that, but to support it, initiate it, and act with it. Those are so important. 

Shaun: Ali, are you listening? 

Ali: Yes-- 

Shaun: This is good. You're green, like you're eight months in. You're taking notes from Linda? 

Linda: Ali, you're amazing, because your job is hell. It's hard work-- 

Ali: Oh, yes.  

Linda: I know. Listen, I know it's hard work. 

Ali: I'm a single mom too. 

Linda: Oh, no-- Listen, I got to give you credit- 

Ali: Thank you. 

Linda: -because that world is hard work, especially if you may not have the best person that has just left or checked out. So, I get it, believe me. 

Ali: Well, my colleague-- It's me and my colleague who do it together, and she is the best human ever. I'm a single mom, so she very much works around my schedule, which has just been amazing. But to what you've said about these connections and finding short-term rentals or occupancies, or longer-term rentals for all the people that you do, it's kind of the same thing for me too. It's just like a way to put yourself out there, market in a sense. I've met a few clients through my short-term rental property management. 

We have somebody coming to stay with us-- He wants to get out of Calgary, move his family to Rossland for the lifestyle and how amazing it is here, so they're coming here doing an occupancy for-- I think it's three months, but we've been chatting a lot, and he's going to use me as his REALTOR® when they decide to buy. So, yes, exactly like what you said previously. It's just making those connections, getting people to trust you because they can see how hard you work in this career, which is short-term rental property management, and then trust you enough to choose you as their REALTOR®. That's the ultimate hope at the end of the day, so-- Yes. 

Shaun: It's all about relationships, yes, and being a good person, and being helpful, being all those. Because sometimes we get wrapped up in all the details of all the bylaws and so on and so forth, but at the end of the day, we're talking about a human who wants a positive human experience, so that first point of contact, I think, is really important as well. One thing, when we talk about community and creating community, a big part of that is when they're arriving, wanting them to feel welcome, wanting them to feel included right away. What are some things that you guys can do to provide that sense of comfort and welcome? Go ahead. We'll start with, of course, Dame Linda. 

Linda: Thank you. Yes, I think it's always nice-- especially if they're coming on a flight or something, I tend to have a case of water, believe it or not, even though they're heavy, because it's really important, which-- I don't know, it's just a habit, I've done it for years. Aside from all of that, what's really important is to outline-- I have a package, it's kind of a guide. There's one for Toronto, there's one for Mississauga, and what it does is it shows all the necessary things that they may need. That would be, for instance, utility companies, all the contact names, the local schools around, the Board of Education, the city amenities, and so on. Because they don't know all these, and it's kind of difficult if you've got to sit down and start going through Google to learn them all. A big thing is the schools, without a doubt. I think trying to look at all that, obviously, the typical-- I have customized notepads with pens and so on, and I put those on the table. One big one, which is a big plus, honestly, they love it, is a fruit basket. They love it, and I'm really a health-crazy person, so-- 

Shaun: Awesome. That's great. What about you, Ali? 

Ali: From a short-term rental perspective, when guests arrive, we make sure that we have welcome books available at all of our units, so all of our Alpine homes up at RED. A book full of activities, suggested restaurants, 911 numbers to call if you're in trouble, anything like that. We're also constantly glued to our 24/7 emerg phone, so we're just having constant communication with the guests that are staying at our units. Lots of questions always roll in, and just making sure to keep the communication open-ended, and advise them, and give them input for just local recommendations and all of that. That's with respect to the short-term rental side of things. 

Then, of course, when people are actually purchasing vacation properties, I am letting them know, like I said previously, that I'm local. I know where all the secret spots are, I know the good restaurants. I know basically everything behind the scenes in Rossland, I know all the rumors and gossip, so-- 

Shaun: Very important. 

Ali: Yes. Basically, just communication with people that are buying here, buying vacation properties here is so important, and making it personable and actually taking them out. Not just texting, being there in person and having that personal touch. 

Shaun: So good. How about you, Jess? 

Jesse: Yes, biggest thing is kind of giving a bit of a map brief. When they hit the ground here, same thing with some water, coffee, sit them down, do a nice formal introduction, because a lot of times, it's just been over phone or email. If they're overseas, we're dealing with a time change. They get in, I have a buyer's guide for them. Obviously, they're coming in to buy, so I give them a buyer's guide with all that info, lawyers, lenders. At that point, they've already been pre-approved, but lawyers, lenders, inspectors, school zones, amenities, support networks, stuff on the base, unit-specific, as well as resource centers for their family. Amenities for kiddos, arenas, pools, all of that, because a lot of the families' kids are into all sorts of sports, so I find those questions, I get a lot. 

Then just color-coded maps with all the neighborhoods and all of that, because again, they don't know what they don't know. Just give them all of those guides-- We've formulated those over the last few years, and tweak them as things change, and always improve. Again, it's just information. I always just say, it is relationship-building, but if you can be that point of contact that they always call or that they depend on, you're just looking at that mid and long-term case development, and that's where not everybody understands it, where they want instant results today. I would just say, if you want to be successful at real estate, it's all planting that seed today, germinating, and just that second and third-order effect for what I do today will pay off for both myself and my clients. But a lot of people who want instant results today, I would say, find a new job. 

Ali: Right on. 

Shaun: Yes. It's all about the long game. 

Jesse: Yes. 

Dame Linda: It's a grind. 

Ali: It's a grind, yes. 

Shaun: Well, listen, guys, this has been an incredible conversation. I cannot thank you enough. We've learned so much. We get these amazing perspectives from all corners of our country, almost-- It's a big country, but you know what I'm saying, coast to coast, but not to Newfoundland. Newfoundland is-- By the way, for anybody who's talking about coast to coast, it doesn't stop at Halifax, okay? 

Jesse: Yes--  

Shaun: Make sure you include Newfoundland when you're doing that. You know any weather people, they always go, "Coast to coast from Vancouver, Victoria, to Halifax." I'm like, "Ah--" Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on REAL TIME. 

Ali: Thank you. 

Linda: Thank you. 

Ali: That was awesome. 

Jesse: Thank you, guys. It's been a pleasure. Nice to meet everybody. 

Linda: Yes, absolutely. Thank you. 

Shaun: Are you kidding me? What an amazing conversation. So many perspectives, things that I didn't even know about. I mean, with Jesse talking about that short window of having to purchase in such a short time under all that pressure. You know, someone like Ali who's out there, she's such an amazing-- born and bred in the town. Who better to welcome you into that market and to help you find your vacation home? And of course, Dame Linda Pinizzotto, she had some stories to tell, whether it be movie stars, or athletes. Toronto Blue Jays, Toronto Raptors, the Toronto Maple Leafs, she's worked with them all. What a great conversation. I hope you guys enjoyed that. If you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or review our preferred podcast platform. And as always, we appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and the production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. Thank you so much. My name is Shaun Majumder, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME. 

Conscious leadership isn’t a one-size-fits-all skill. It’s a series of conscious decisions to address the needs of your team, build strategies rooted in empathy, and understanding the value of conflict management.

Dale Allen, an executive leadership coach who uses a unique empathetic brain-based approach, sat down with Shaun Majumder at CREA’s 2026 Leadership Summit to discuss the importance of creativity and flexibility in leadership. She also shared insights into the value of emotional intelligence, checking in with yourself as a leader, and “noticing your grip.”

Transcript

Dale Allen: You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning, so it's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire, oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice.

Shaun: I love it. Welcome. This is so exciting, guys. Are you guys stoked to see a live podcast now? No fights are going to break out. This is going to be like-- We're just going to have a great conversation. I've so enjoyed doing this podcast over the last year and a half now. We're so excited to have Dale Allen. Dale, first of all, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your company is, what your passion is, and let's talk about leadership. I'm stoked to talk about leadership.

Dale: Sounds good. I am Dale Allen. I've been called many things, but Dale is my name. My company is called ConsciousLead, and I have a real ache for being around people, working with people, connecting with people who want to do things with people, like understand how people work. I just think that it's a bit of a tragedy, in many organizations, that we can do this stuff, where we're leading people, we have to make decisions with people yet we might not take the time and create the space to really understand how people work.

Sometimes, just because we have a leadership title, we can assume that we understand how people work, and I think that that can be a myth. I love, and I am telling you, I'm committed to, and have an ache for when people understand that that part's important.

Shaun: Yes, I think it is. I feel like, in the world, if you're an ambitious person at all, and you want to achieve great things, a lot of people spend a lot of time in their own head, right? We're spending lots of time, as creative people, thinking about, "Okay, I want to do this. I want to achieve this, but I'm really thinking about I, I, I," and we're not focusing on the people around you and what you need to get out of them, I guess, in order to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve, right?

Dale: Yes.

Shaun: I want to ask you a bit about that because I'm pretty stoked now. I've gone from being-- I'm an actor and a comedian. I do all this creative stuff, but I've now taking a much more entrepreneurial role, and I've created my own company now. It's called Lafboy Films. I want to be the leader of this company, but I know I need to get better at being a leader. Why don't we talk a bit about that?

You have an interesting approach. I hear you have something called a brain-based [chuckles] approach to leadership. Thank God, because when I think about AI has taken over the world, I'm like, "Thank God, this is going to be an organic, wet brain approach to leadership." Explain a bit about that. What do you mean by that?

Dale: Yes. Some years ago, we had-- I've been coaching for 21 years, so my partner and I have had this business. Some years ago, we started to really study neuroscience and understand the impact of what it means to be together, the impact that we are having on each other right now. I was thinking about whether you have clients or you're looking at your own team or your team at home, the fact that we are actually always in response to people's brains.

If their brain is in a threat state, then it closes. It can't open to the ideas that we have, to what we want to share with them. I've got two kids, so I know that for sure.

Shaun: I've got two kids.

Dale: You know what it's like, right?

Shaun: How old are your kids now?

Dale: 16 and 18.

Shaun: Oh, wow. Mine are 4 and 6.

Dale: Oh, it's so yummy.

Shaun: Yes, so yummy.

Dale: That's also where it started for us, too. Our children are young, and we were really understanding how the brain works so that we could be really great parents for them. It makes me think that if all of us here, of course, we've got brains, right? Yes, you're with me on that one, so we do. It's that anytime we walk into a room, anytime we walk into a conversation, as we wake, our brain is always scanning our environment for a threat or a reward.

Just in knowing that, to me, I think it's so important for us to know how do we actually help ourselves when our brain is in a threat state in a given moment. It can happen. We can go into a threat state like that.

Shaun: It's a blink.

Dale: Oh, yes, and we don't even know it. To me, it's like if we understood that principle, and then we looked at, then, how do I know when my colleague or a client or another board member or whichever is in that threat state, even for a blink? What would I do differently then to invite them into a state where they could be more open, they could hear what I have to offer? In particular, when things are challenging. I always say leadership shows up when things are challenging. When life's easy--

Shaun: Oh, when life's easy, man, it's like I am-- I've always joked around about this. I feel like I can be full enlightened Buddha when I am by myself, and there's not another input around me. I have no influence. Then you put me on the highway, and someone cuts me off when I'm merging, or they don't merge, all of a sudden, I'm getting triggered, or my partner, she says something that affected me 15 years ago. Then all of a sudden, this thing comes up.

I'm here preaching to her about being calm and don't lead with fear, and here I am freaking out inside about being fearful. It's so hard to be a human, to have a brain. It's really hard. When you apply that to your team, and when you're thinking about that, I heard you say something just now, which I find interesting. A lot of it that I've worked on as a parent has been about my own awareness of my own reactions to things. When you talk about how can I get a client or a team member in that same headspace, what are the tools that you use to get them there so that they are open to hearing your leadership style? Talk to me about that.

Dale: I'm glad you asked because I've got my toolbox. I don't [crosstalk] I was actually thinking about this because I got to meet with some people before from CREA, and I was sharing with them. I do have a process. I absolutely do. One of the things I'll say is I'm going to name some steps because we like steps, don't we? Everyone's like, step 1, you do this, you be aware.

I suppose it is that, though. I think it is about being aware. I think before that, even if I was to give you the steps, I think that we need a desire. We've gone through this life, for example, without knowing about the brain, let's just say. We've gone through our businesses, and we've parented and we've been partners to our spouses or whatever. We've gone through life just fine. I think it starts with desire. What I notice is it's just like when I used to personal train as well. I would give people their program. Then I was like, "Oh, that's not it. If you can Google it, then you don't need me." That way To me, you need to have a desire to want to lead in a way that has people's brains open. It really does start there.

Shaun: Wait, back up. You're saying you want to have a desire to lead in a way that opens people's brain?

Dale: Which is really like opening their hearts, right?

Shaun: Right, right. Having the desire. You have to start from that place?

Dale: You do. The reason why I was saying that is because sometimes people will say, brain-based leadership or even coaching or doing leadership development, some people don't want to do it. If you've ever worked with anyone where you're like, they're just not going to do it. That's so normal. It's just like in school, right? There's a certain percent of the population who is going to do the work, right? We have to honor that that's true for us. The desire becomes important because, in an organization, there'll be about 20%. It's the Pareto principle, just like in anything else.

Shaun: What is that? Can you explain that?

Dale: The Pareto principle, it's the 80-20 rule. It applies in everything. When you look at behavior, for example, or anything that you see in our life where you go, 80% of the people will do the general way, and the 20% will be the ones who will do something different. That's what I find here, too. There'll be 20% when I work with a team, 20% of the folks will do the work. It's just how it goes. You'll see that, even if you look at your teams now-- I don't mean that other people aren't working. I just mean you'll see the difference in terms of who is like, "Yes, let's go, let's do it," because it's work.

Again, if I was to give you all a fitness program, which I could, we could do squats right now. That's what I usually do. It totally is my thing. A little jump with that, too. You see? Next level, you see?

Shaun: I love it. I love it. I feel good already. Yes, keep going. I love that idea. When it gets back to desire, it gets 80-20. Then you lead by example, but how do you bring that out of your team?

Dale: Right. Here's what I've noticed in looking at the stats, though, is then those 20% are the ones that you want to feed because everyone's having an impact, right? If I keep developing them, then the way that they interact with folks who might be, like, later adopters or might not be interested at all in doing what it takes maybe to move the organization forward. It just means that everyone's got a role. What happens with that 20%, I find, is that if I keep nurturing them, then how everyone else interacts with them, their interactions shift.

Change is still happening anyway. It's so beautiful. If they're not fed, then what happens is people, the 80% say how they are, and the 20% are trying to figure it out. There, if we develop them, then when they're interacting with others, you'll just watch. They're already shifting the dynamic. That's another thing I discovered over 21 years and over, I don't know, 10,000 people that I've been coaching. You just start to see that that's the way to cause a change. Not everyone has to jump on.

Shaun: Desire is important. Easier said than done.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: I think that's a big thing. Then, if I am a part of, let's say, the 20% of that group, I want to affect change with my team. What if the team just isn't coming this way? How do you manage that? I understand you have something called cognitive flexibility. I want to talk a little bit about that. I find that to be really an important piece.

Dale: Yes. Desire is one. We talked there. I just want to go to that, and I'll lead you to-- I want to weave in what you were saying about cognitive flexibility. Desire is needed because if we want to change something, we have to see who has the desire for the change. Then we want to see who has the desire to do the work for the change. We can have the ache for it, we have the desire for it to change, but we don't want to do the work. Then that's really natural. That happens. All the time.

I want to focus on the folks who want to do the work. What happens with that is, it's just like, again, if you can just imagine at home, all of us are someone's children. They're someone's child. If we look at when your sibling, actually, you were doing all the work and your other sibling wasn't, does that happen? Were you the one who wasn't doing the work? I don't know. I'm not calling anyone out. When you see those kinds of imbalances, what you notice is that that can create tension.

That's why us understanding the brain becomes important, because how do I then support folks when they're meeting resistance from other people? Our ability as leaders to understand how do I coach you, how do I still support you, and how do I still support the rest of my team, becomes so important because you're actually really balancing resistance and resistance, actually, right?

Shaun: Yes.

Dale: Cognitive flexibility to me is that, in coaching, in learning, how to understand how people react to things, how to understand what are their drivers, their motivations. When you understand that, then you can look at, "Oh, how do I then coach? Is there any Johns?" I always use John and Janes. If you're a John and a Jane, I love you because you've made my life really, really simple.

How do I coach John over here? Really, I'm just coaching John because John's dealing with resistance. I'm helping him work through resistance. Over here, I've got people who are seeming like resistors, but that's okay. That's also part of it, too. They might not understand what it's going to take or see that as the way. Look at what is the way to understand their motivations as well as the motivations over here. That becomes our skill. That helps us, our brain, our mind, be more flexible. That's why cognitive flexibility is not my word. I wish I made it up. I didn't.

Shaun: Is that a cultural thing? Is there something cultural about that in terms of the way we're brought up? I imagine, in some societies, there's a certain way of being. It's like, "This is strict. If you do not do it this way, then we don't want you." Then people fall away. You're taking a much more empathetic approach to managing a team. Have you seen that in your studies and seen some cultures, they do it a certain way, but then it might create a certain vibe within a team?

I'm very positive and very optimistic. I want everybody to be on the same page. I want to lift everybody up. However, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, does it mean, are we getting the best results as well?

Dale: Totally. I think that the desire, again, going back to desire and then our awareness. Now we've got the ache to support people with the change. Then we build the awareness for folks. We help people be aware of what it is that they need to do. I think we need to help people be aware of how they work through resistance, how they work through people's fear. When we do that, then we're like, "Okay, now we've got something."

When you're talking about cultural, the one thing that I'd say, and this is what I love about the brain, is it doesn't matter where you're from, how long you've been on the planet. Your brain still is either going through threat or reward in a moment. Our motivations are what's consistent between us, the same with the way our brain responds. That's why I think it's so foundational to know.

Shaun: It's so universal.

Dale: Oh, yes. Absolutely, it is. Really, we're looking at what are the motivators. If this 20% is so, so, so keen to support the change, it's like they have internal motivators. The people who aren't, they also have internal motivators. How do we have the motivations talk as opposed to it's my way or the highway, right? If we talk about the motivations, it's like, "You've got a need for efficiency?"

"Cool. So do I."

"Oh, you think that's the only way to do it? What about this one?"

It's just like we usually argue or where the conflict happens is because our strategies to meet our needs, our motivations are different. Just the strategy, but the reason, the motivations are the same. We both want to do this effectively.

Shaun: Yes, end goal, same journey, maybe a little different based on personality, upbringing, whether you ate that morning. You could be tired, you didn't sleep, your kid would have kept you up all night.

Dale: Exactly. If you sift through all of that, that becomes a distraction to what the goal is. That's what often happens in leadership is we're like, "I really love what Shaun said. Oh, but I loved what Dale said. Ooh, how do I--" We're getting caught and distracted by that, where it's like--

Shaun: Right, details.

Dale: Yes, totally. In leadership, it's like we can't afford that distraction. It'll take us away from us moving forward.

Shaun: Is this resonating with you guys in terms of your teams? I really don't know necessarily what the inner workings of everybody's teams would be, but I think it's applicable across the board, no matter what kind of team or what kind of business you're in. What are the positive effects on the entire team when leadership is conscious, creative, and flexible? What would you say? Talk a bit about that. About how that impacts the entire--

Dale: About being conscious?

Shaun: Conscious, flexible, and creative. Creativity is something you may not think of immediately when you think of business, but talk about creativity when it comes to leadership, how important it is to be creative.

Dale: The other day, I was with a team, and the leader was explaining that they're super stuck because they just had people. Right now, in this particular place, they're downsizing, and they're having a really hard time. You can imagine, and I just would love to hear from you all, but when you're downsizing, if you can just imagine it, if it's not been your reality, but what do you think shows up in the team, amongst team members, when you're about to announce that you're downsizing or right-sizing. Let's say if you're splitting an organization or some people are going to lose their footing because they might not be doing what they were doing before? I would love to hear from you.

Shaun: Yes, yell it out. What do you think, what comes up?

Dale: Yes, fear.

Speaker 3: Anxiety.

Dale: Anxiety. What do you think happens between people?

Speaker 3: Jealousy, conflict.

Speaker 6: Competitive.

Dale: Competitive, jealousy, conflict. What did you say over here?

Speaker 7: Tension.

Dale: Tension. Remember, I was saying earlier that leadership shows up when there's a challenge? Because really, then it's how am I going to be during tension, fear, anxiety, challenge? How do I lead in that moment? That's where creativity comes in. How can I create with what is happening? That can be challenging.

My parents are Jamaican, and when I wanted to give me a recipe for soup or something, my mom will say, "Oh, Dale, you just need a little bit of salt and a little bit of--" I'm like, there is no measuring cup that says a little bit. In fancy places like maybe at Lee Valley or something, there is, but there isn't actually one. I always think of creativity and leadership means what's the ingredient that is needed right now? What do I need a little bit more of when there's fear and anxiety and challenge?

This is where I find if we don't have that consciousness, if we don't have that practice of understanding internal motivators, understanding the messages that people say in between, it's like how do I read between the lines? If I get too caught in details, then I end up being more of a mediator instead of actually someone helps people lead through what's going on and make decisions that are supportive of themselves.

People can have agency to figure out what they need to do. It's more about can I inspire them to make the move that is the healthiest for them and for their client, their colleague, or whomever. When there's fear, and it's really high, the brain shuts down.

Shaun: Oh, shuts down.

Dale: Big time, big time, big time. It's like, how do I get this thought in that this person might see it as something that they could do to move? Consciousness, I need to be aware of how people are in fear. Their brain is closing. They can't take the information. What would it compel us to do then to have people open where their brain's like, "Yes, give it to me. Tell me. Tell me what you got for me, Dale. How do I do that?" How we ask questions in those moments really matter.

Shaun: If we can talk about fear for a second, because fear is one of those things, like you say, closes up, shuts down. My biggest criticism of myself is, and I think this is in relationships too, and with my kids, I'm sure it applies in leadership. If someone comes to me with a stressful situation, I'm a problem solver, so I want to say right away, "Well, this is what you need to do," or "This is how to get it done."

Sometimes they don't want a solution. They just want to be heard. Does that also apply in business and in leadership with teams? Acknowledging their fear and allowing them to be inside of the fear as opposed to saying, "No, no, no, don't be fearful. Don't worry. It's all going to be good. You got nothing to worry about." The person is freaking out inside. How do you manage that?

That's an emotional thing that you're obviously not going to get inside that fear clump by trying to solve the problem right away. It sounds like you want some time where they can finally be open. How do you get through that moment, and what do you do, especially if you're on a time crunch?

Dale: Someone said this to me the other day. I loved their feedback when I was sharing this, but they just said, "You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning." It's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire. Oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, "Don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice."

I think what happens is when you have a client or a colleague who's in high fear where you experience that challenge or the anxiety, you've had that before, right? What do you think your best way to be with them is? You're feeling their tension, their anxiety, their fear. What's your way?

Shaun: Yell it out.

Speaker 4: Acknowledge, calm.

Dale: Acknowledge, calm, empathetic, supportive. How easy is it to do that when someone's in front of you, they're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't just believe this. This is really happening. I can't believe it. Oh my gosh, and you told me that this is what I'm supposed to do"? What usually naturally happens to you?

Dale: Yes, you elevate. You see why this is a you thing, right? I always say if there's someone spicy or they've got fire and I had fire, what do we have more of? We got double the fire. I need to dose my own. This is what conscious leadership is about. It's how can I regulate when someone's going like, "No, no, come with me up here. It's really fun." You're like, "No, no, no, I really don't want to. I just did the session with you all and Shaun. Shaun was reminding me about zenning myself, and all I want to do is throw some bombs."

The practice matters. We learn to regulate even when someone else is going high. If we don't, then we are outside of what's called our window of tolerance, actually. This is where my capacity is, and I am above capacity. I need a way back.

Shaun: Where are places that we can practice this?

Dale: You could come hang out with me for one. Really, coaching is helpful. I'm not saying that you need to do that with me. You might want to do it with Shaun because he's going to be more-- I'm fun too, and I can do the splits. I don't know if Shaun can, but--

Shaun: I can do splits.

Dale: You can do the splits, then come with me then. You're going to have more fun.

Shaun: Yes, for sure. Splits, wins, every time.

Dale: You practicing your own awareness and one of the things that you can do is when you are with someone who is highly charged, even if you do this afterwards, if you write down, if you just look at, what was it? Can I pinpoint what was the exact thing that was charging them? What was it that triggered them? What was it that activated them? That's where I find it's really difficult for many people.

People say to me, John's always like that. Sorry, John. Any John's in your story. John's always like that. He always does that. I watch for language like that. Imagine what happens when we say that about John? John's always like this. A little louder.

Speaker 5: John believes it.

Dale: John believes it. Exactly. How does John treat that person? This is what I'm saying about consciousness. We'll treat them exactly how we believe them to be. There's no room for anything else. We're not conscious of what else is possible with this person. It's our own bias in essence. Again, if we understand motivations, we would go, "I can sift through all of what John was saying and go, 'Okay, John has a need for support. That's interesting.'" Went about it a little funky.

He was yelling, and he was wanting support. I don't want to support him. That's what we want to do is we want to see, "Do we understand internal motivations and what it creates?" Really, just how our thinking then creates what we say, which creates our behaviors out in the world.

Shaun: I think we always are comparing, contrasting, and then drawing from our own lives all the experiences that we've had as individuals. We see John, he's having a little bit of a freak out for whatever reason. Then we want to try to understand where they're coming from. As a parent, as a new dad, honestly, one of these things, this idea, I've read this book called Good Inside, but this idea that you assume that the other person's intentions, they're not coming from a bad place. It's actually calling out for something that they need.

What is the need that they need right now? Acknowledging that and saying, "Listen, you're not a bad person because you threw that binder across and you broke that plant." It's not proper behavior, and probably would be let go. You know what I mean? Assuming that where they're coming from, finding the good place that they're coming from, and how can I help with that issue? We are highly charged individuals.

How do you manage somebody? It's also a workplace scenario. It's not simply in your human relationships, which all applies, but in a workplace scenario where you have a certain level of standards, practices, behavioral expectations at the office within the team. If someone goes far outside that, how would you advise leaders to manage that?

Dale: It still is the same to me, though, because it still is a human response. That is a question I get often. People say, "So-and-so was so unprofessional." I was like, "What did they do?" They're so human that they got angry. Even if the way that they got angry, they threw the binder and broke the plant. It still is anger, and it still needs the same response. To me, it's not about condoning behavior at all. It's actually more that I need to understand what the need is.

What's the internal motivator that created the anger? Actually, I want them to understand it. I want to coach in a way that you tell me what you were really looking for there.

Shaun: That's interesting. Using questions is a good thing. "John, you're always like this. John, tell me more." Take me through actually script. What would you say to somebody in that situation?

Dale: I don't actually have a script, but I can do it. Can someone tell me a challenge that they've had? You could, too, if you want.

Shaun: Let me see, what's a good challenge I've had? You gave Steve the promotion, but I feel like I've been working as hard, if not harder. Why am I not getting the due that I'm owed?

Dale: What is it that you-- I'd love for you to just share with me, what are all of the things when you think about this job, if you were to get the promotion?

Shaun: Look at the numbers. Yes, it's all numbers. I've got numbers. I've seen his numbers. Plus, he's obsessed with his car all the time. He's outside doing his car, and he smokes. I'm not doing that. I'm even putting in the hours.

Dale: Let's stay with you, though.

Shaun: Yes. I'm just saying, though, because compared to him, it's all--

Dale: I don't want you to compare yourself to him. I want you to tell me--

Shaun: I can't help it because he's the one who got the thing.

Dale: He's not even here.

Shaun: I got another baby on the way, and I didn't even know about it. This person showed up from Scarborough and told me about this 10 years ago thing that happened.

Dale: This is what happens when you're clubbing. I'm not going to diss you for clubbing because I like a good clubbing.

Shaun: Yes, I liked clubbing, too, back in the day.

Dale: I want you to stay with me here for a second.

Shaun: Okay, I'm just really high right now.

Dale: This is what I noticed. Your clubbing got you another gift of a baby, which is beautiful.

Shaun: You call it a gift. I call it a debt.

Dale: I guess this is really about how you actually figure out what you want to do next. You're looking at this promotion, and you're wondering why you didn't get it.

Shaun: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Dale: I just want you to track with me for just a moment, just so that I can really be here with you. I want you to share with me what are all of the things, all of the reasons why you know that you deserve it.

Shaun: I look at my numbers. I put so much energy in getting these numbers up. I look at the stats, and I've always been there. You know that I'm here at 5:00 in the morning every day. I don't understand why.

Dale: What's the part? What do you think is missing? What do you think?

Shaun: I don't know. Maybe it's true. At home, I've been feeling really stressed out, too. I've been very anxious. The cost of living is going up. There's wars all over the world. I don't even know what to do.

Dale: I know. I just want you to take a breath for just a moment. I get the war thing, but let's just stay here because it is--

Shaun: Maybe I'm catastrophizing.

Dale: I'm listening to you, and I'm hearing about wars and all of that, and Steve getting the promotion.

Shaun: Don't say his name.

Dale: I know. We won't. We'll call him John because I find that's just really-- John's a safe word.

Shaun: Call him John, I like to call him jerk.

Dale: Stay with me. John, yes, breathe. Good. I'm hearing you talk about cost of living.

Shaun: Cost of living, pressures at home, new kid on the way that it was like she's actually 15. I have no idea. She showed up.

Dale: You've got some catch-up to do?

Shaun: I got some catch-up to do.

Dale: What you're really concerned about isn't the promotion. It's that you-- What? Tell me.

Shaun: That's right. It is. It's probably more about just all the outside stuff. I see when jerk gets--

Dale: We're not even focused. He's not even here. We're not even going to say his name, even. How about that? If he does, I'm out. If you really want your help, then…

Shaun: I'm sorry and all. I just want to be seen. I feel like I want to get the due that I deserved. I was third-line goalie, too. That was frustrating. I didn't even start. This goes back further. Oh, this is deeper than what I thought.

Dale: Do you see? Do you think maybe if we focused on you just being so present to what's happened, and it sounds like with your 15-year-old showing up, saying she wants to be in your life, and this other person.

Shaun: No, you know what? You know what you've helped me do right now? You're helping me work through the true core issue. It isn't about the person who got the promo. It's about--

Dale: You did so well. Can we just take a moment of silence for you being able to do that? It's really good.

Shaun: Thank you so much. Oh, my God. I'm recognizing this isn't even about the promotion.

Dale: It's not about the promotion.

Shaun: Well, listen, I'm still going to keep working as hard as I can here at the library, being an organizer.

Dale: I'm so glad.

Shaun: Thank you so much for helping me through this.

Dale: Earlier, when you were mentioning the goalie thing, maybe this year's your year. I don't know.

Shaun: Oh, I like that.

Dale: It doesn't matter that you're--

Shaun: I'm going to do peyote for the first time.

Dale: Why don't we slow down a little bit?

Shaun: I like this. This is great role play. I feel good. Did you guys learn something there? I did. I learned that I have a kid that I didn't even know about.

Dale: We just want to see you do right by your kid.

Shaun: I'm going to. She deserves a good dad, a half-dad. I'm not even sure yet. I got to go to Maury Povich and get a test on him. We're going to see. Listen, I love that, and I love that process. I think that's--

Dale: Can we name it? What did you notice?

Shaun: Well, I noticed it all comes back to me. It all goes inward. It all goes into fears. What are my fears? There's a genuine frustration there sometimes. I think when people are trying so hard to get ahead and be their own leader in their own right, I guess recognition, acknowledgement, that is what everybody wants. If someone else gets it unfair, there's all this blame game. You're saying, though, that in those situations, if people are focusing on others, the energy, you kept bringing me back to myself.

Dale: Totally. Do you know why? Because anytime you talk about Steve, the power is all-- He's not even here, and there's nothing I can do, and there's nothing you can do. I understand it, but if I allow you to keep comparing yourself to him, you'll never measure up anyway. I don't have the magic wand for that, nor do you. When I was listening to you, I was like, "Is it the promotion? Is it really that?" I'm hearing that it is about being seen or heard, but I also think there's something about a sense of security. The promotion seemed like it represented some kind of security.

Shaun: Of insecurity to me, which really has nothing to do with me.

Dale: That's right. Nor with Steve. If I sense that if I had this promotion, then I would have the financial security to pay for my 15-year-old kid and to get back on that hockey game because I'm going to need, after being out for 20 years, I'm going to need--

Shaun: No more third line, bud. No more third line.

Dale: You're going to need new knees, all of that. To be able to pay for all of that to get that security, I could hear a sense of security that was needed. This is what I find. The more that we coach and understand, we can go, "Oh, right, my role isn't to then go, okay, I'm going to listen, and then, shoot, now, how am I going to give him the promotion? There's only one job. I like Steve a lot. I like Steve."

Shaun: I like Steve, too.

Dale: You didn't sound like it, but yes.

Shaun: No, we're fine. We play darts on Thursday. He's good.

Dale: Nice. I just don't want you to make him the target. This is the thing.

Shaun: I won't. Exactly. It's about helping your-

Dale: Darting his butt just is not going to look good.

Shaun: -client focus on them.

Dale: Totally, and what you can do. There's nothing that I could tell you that will satisfy you. When you were naming earlier, because sometimes we do this as leaders, where we go, oh, we listen, and we definitely want to listen to hear, but I'm listening for, what is his deeper motivation? What's his need? Why I could hear it was some sense of security. If I become the Oprah, you get a TV, and you get a TV, that doesn't help you figure out what it is for you. I create another job for you. Then you're there, and you're like, "That dang Steve, though." I'm doing the same thing and-

Shaun: It never ends.

Dale: It never ends. I don't want to get caught in there. I find that happens often, is that we get caught. We get caught in the story, and it's so addictive.

Shaun: We don't want to get caught in the story. Speaking of getting caught, I love this idea of noticing your grip as a leader. Explain that. We have about five minutes left before we have to move through it, but explain a bit about that, and then I want to wrap up with your final thoughts and tools that maybe everybody here can use.

Dale: Absolutely. When you were mentioning earlier, it's like you were asking if some things are cultural, right? I love the definition of culture as a people enacting a story.

Shaun: Love that.

Dale: We're just acting out a story that we believe, and it could be for whatever reason, our cultural background, it could be our age, it could be our birth order, it could be any reason, but it's our story that we enact. It really is our belief system. Sometimes, what I find, much like as we were doing that real play, is that the grip is like, you are holding on to, Steve is this, and Steve is that, and then I've got this 15-year-old, and I don't even know if Maury is going to want me on that show. Does Maurice even exist? I don't even know it. We grip onto something, actually believing that it's like we're actually moving, but actually, in ways, it's just keeping us stuck.

I was sharing that there's an image that I have when I think of this is I saw this meme, it was just the words, anyway. I had this image with it. The words are, "Let go, or you'll be dragged." I pictured a pickup truck with one of those thick ropes attached to it, and someone holding on. When you just need to let go, and you're not, so you're dragged all through the streets here, and you're all dusty and dirty, and you're like, "I don't know what's going on," and it's because we're holding on.

I often find that we grip onto things, thinking that it's the thing, it's going to help us, but we need to release, we need to let go. I often find that, in leadership, we will, we are like, "I believe it's supposed to be this way. My dad did it this way. My dad owned this organization and this is how we're going to do it," or, "I've learned those ways and I don't have the," as you were mentioning earlier, "the cognitive flexibility to go, 'Oh, look at me gripping.'" It's not the way, it's a way.

Shaun: That reminds me of my daughter on her T-bar for the first time. You know the T-bar? The little-- it's got this thing. She did that. She was, the first time on T-bar, she got on her skis, she held on to this thing here, and then it got away from her, and she would not let go. Then she was dreading, and I'm screaming, "Let go.-

Dale: Let go, oh.

Shaun: -let go." Then, when she let go, she was done with the T-bar-

Dale: I can imagine.

Shaun: -forever.

Dale: I imagine.

Shaun: I get it. It's the same idea. I think that's a great, easily thought of mechanism for moving forward.

Dale: Absolutely.

Shaun: As we close out, it's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that, first of all, there's not one single way, and it's really all about being flexible, being creative in your leadership style, listening is a big thing, but it's not something-- I have a note here saying how leadership isn't something you necessarily achieve, but it's something you nourish and develop. Talk about that.

Dale: That's a similar thing. Again, leadership only shows up, it's really needed, when there's a challenge. I need to nourish my capacity to be with challenges in ways that doesn't create harm. Really, it's like leadership is really about how do I use my power? Am I exercising my power? Am I developing myself in a way that how I use my power, in particular when it's challenging?

Does it actually create an environment where people open? If we are in a 911 situation, an emergency situation, it really is about how am I using my power in that moment that allows people to move? That's what we need to do. We're taking care of people. I really think that if I was just to give steps, I think it would be that first we look at, do we have the desire to help create the change? One. Many people do.

Two, who are the ones who are willing to build the awareness needed so that I could be in this conversation with the clients, the John's of the world, especially when it's challenging. It doesn't matter what the challenge is. You don't have to read the book and create, "When they are talking about they have a 15-year-old, what do I do? It's on page 172." It's not like that. It's just that there is a tension. It's tension, anxiety, challenge, doubt, fear, worry.

When I see that, how do I want to be? I look at, am I listening for the need, or am I listening for their story? Listen for the need in their story. Then ask questions. Ask them. This is where it just takes time.

Shaun: Dude, that's a big one. Asking questions versus making statements. I find that with my kids. I'm too busy making statements. No, you don't want to do that. Versus, why do you want to do that?

Dale: Yes, or what will that give you?

Shaun: Oh, my God.

Dale: The one thing I would share just something for all of you, is when you ask a why question, like when you say, "Why did you do that?" Can you feel the energy of that? Why do you make that suggestion?

Shaun: It's a little judgy.

Dale: Totally. If you ask a what question, if you turn your why's into a what, like, "What did you get out of that?" or "What did you notice as a result of doing that?" You'll completely change people's reaction because the brain shuts down. A why is like, "Okay, I got to defend. Dukes up." That's what you can do.

Shaun: That's a good tool. That's a great tool. I'm also thinking about it with my kids, too. It's everything goes through my kids now because I want to be a good leader for my kids.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: Well, this is amazing. We talk about pride. This is our big theme here today. Building pride in your organization. I think just by being great leaders, by being an empathetic leader, by being creative. This has been very insightful, Dale. I can't thank you enough. This has been a good-- I hope I didn't freak you out with my little role play.

Dale: You did great.

Shaun: I did party back in the day. That is true. I may or may not have made a baby with someone at Starbro in the '90s. I may find that out later. Also, I just want to leave with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to see how far down I can get. I can't get.

Dale: That's good.

Shaun: No, it's not good. That's not good.

Dale: You didn't split your pants. That's good.

Shaun: That's terrible. I am like, "That's amazing."

Shaun: Guys, let's hear it for Dale Allen on REAL TIME.

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Dale, oh my God, this is 

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Thank you so much, Dale. What a pleasure. She'll be around. Please hire her.

Dale: I'm with him. I like that. Thank you so much.

Shaun: All right. Be well. Be well.

Whether facing mobility, visual, or auditory barriers, many clients require accommodations to make the real estate journey more accessible. This is something every REALTOR® can help with—it doesn’t have to be up to just a few who specialize in accessibility.

Jeffrey Kerr, a REALTOR® and author of Barrier Free Real Estate: Achieving Freedom at Home has spent more than 20 years advocating for more accessibility in real estate and helping clients with disabilities navigate the process. Jeffrey joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to look at common accessibility setbacks in real estate and how all REALTORS® can help their clients overcome these barriers.

Transcript

Jeffrey Kerr: Designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you're eight or 88, that, to me, is the goal.

Shaun Majumder: Hey, guys. Today on REAL TIME, I speak with a gentleman named Jeffrey Kerr. He's a real estate agent who has been working with people with disabilities as his clients for many years, all the way back to 2004. He's got a great story to tell, and we're going to go deep on what exactly accessibility means in the world of real estate. We're going to talk about the features in homes, we're going to talk about what's working, what's not, and I think you're going to really enjoy it.

Let's dig in. Buckle down. Here we go, my conversation with real estate agent Jeffrey Kerr. Oh, this is exciting. This is exciting, ladies and gentlemen of the world, whether you're in real estate or not. We have an incredible guest today. Somebody who's going to provide some deep insight, some long historical knowledge. Of course, today, joining us on REAL TIME is the one and only Jeffrey Kerr. He is going to tell us why he is such an amazing Blue Jay fan. That is why we're here today to talk about.

We're here to talk about the Jays. Of course, I'm kidding. We're both being Jays. Let's see it, baby. Yes, Jeffrey Kerr, Blue Jay fan, which we have to touch on a little bit, but really, that's not what you do. Of course, you are a REALTOR® who has lots of experience in making real estate more accessible, the journey more accessible. Accessibility is what we're talking about today.

Something that I know, Jeffrey, I've taken for granted in my mind, when I'm thinking about real estate, and I was thinking about topics, and then when I saw your name come across, and I saw what we're going to talk about today, lights went off. I'm like, "Of course. Oh, my gosh." Thinking about all the people who need to have access. First of all, tell us a bit about your background and why you, in this discussion, and what accessibility in real estate means to you, but also to the world?

Jeffrey: Thank you, Shaun. It's great to be here. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to come on the podcast and talk about accessible real estate. It's something that I've been doing for a lot of years. I grew up in a family. My aunt had MS. My mom is an occupational therapist/physiotherapist who worked at Toronto Rehab. It was just a fact of life for me growing up in that environment. When it came to real estate, it was just a natural fit for me to work with people with disabilities and help them find a home that works for them.

For many years, I've written articles for the Canadian Paraplegic Association, which is now the Spinal Cord Injury Ontario. I've written articles for them. I've took those articles, and I've actually put them all together in a book, which I call Barrier Free Real Estate - Achieving Freedom at Home. I wrote this book basically as a resource for people who are suddenly in need of an accessible home, and they don't know where to start.

Shaun: What percentage of your clients are those with disabilities?

Jeffrey: It varies from year to year, but on average, it's probably about 65% to 70% of the buyers and sellers that I work with are people with disabilities or are looking for a home to accommodate someone.

Shaun: Right, because these are things that maybe, obviously, if you don't have disabilities, it's not top of mind, but, man, you are a very important specialist when it comes to this in terms of going through the checklist of what is needed to make a house more accessible. Why is it that accessibility in real estate matters, broadly speaking? Then I'd like to get down into some details about what exactly are those things per room that we need to think about when we're thinking about accessibility?

Jeffrey: I think it's important for everyone because everyone, regardless of their age, whether you're eight or 88, you can appreciate an accessible home. It could be a parent pushing a stroller, it could be someone looking to age in place, it could be a family member that you want to welcome into your home. Regardless of the reason, accessibility is so important in our homes for everybody. Whether you realize it or not, there are people in your life that will benefit from an accessible home and being able to enjoy your home as much as you do when they come to visit.

It could be you have an injury, you sprain your ankle, and suddenly climbing the stairs are a challenge. It could be anything. You're welcoming an older parent to come and visit, so having access to a washroom is important so that they can stay. There's an entrance solution so that you can welcome people into your home. There's just so many factors into it, and accessibility, I feel, is just important for everyone.

Shaun: When you first started thinking about this as a business model, in a way, what were the things, the barriers that you were seeing? Is the system already being conscious and doing their best to accommodate, or are you seeing that in the beginning it was really lacking, now there's a little more awareness, so it's becoming more prevalent in the discussions, or are you saying it's right where it needs to be right now? Where would you say, on the scale, the overall buying and selling experience is like for people who need accessibility?

Jeffrey: To circle back, I've been a REALTOR® since 1999, so for quite a few years. Back when I started focusing on accessibility around 2004, there was one other real estate agent in Ontario that was focusing on working with people with disabilities. There really was no model to follow there. There really wasn't a lot of information out there to help find homes that are accessible or could be made accessible. Slowly, over the years, that's improving.

What I found early on, it was a question of understanding what people's needs are and then going through the listings and identifying homes that could meet those needs. Fast forward to today, the real estate boards are getting a little better in gathering information on the homes and the accessibility features within those homes. It's a little easier to find properties, but it's still, in my opinion, it's not where it needs to be.

Shaun: What was it that inspired you to say, "Oh, these are the people that are not being looked at. We need to take care of that. In my newfound, I got my license. Here we go. I know I can specialize." Was there one specific incident that made you say, "Oh, this is what I want to do and focus on," or was that the reason you got into real estate to begin with? Tell me about that story, about what made you say, "Oh, this has got to be for me."

Jeffrey: I think the aha moment was in 2004 when my aunt needed to sell a pre-construction condo that she purchased in the mid-'90s. It was supposed to be wheelchair accessible. My aunt and uncle went into the sales office, bought what they were told was a wheelchair accessible condo. Through construction delays, my uncle had passed on before that condo was ready for occupancy. I was with Aunt Jean when she rolled through the front door, and she knew very quickly that she couldn't live there independently.

She handed me the keys and said, "Jeff, I need you to sell this condo for me." The condo had a really good bathroom, large bathroom with a roll-in shower, but the kitchen itself was a joke. It was so poorly designed, there was no way that she could live there independently and look after meals. I actually started researching selling accessible condominiums and there was no resources out there.

I met with, gentleman who name is Kevin Rogers at, at the time, it was called the Canadian Paraplegic Association. I was asking him what his advice was to market this condominium. He provided some advice for me. We had a great chat. At the end of the chat, he said, "Jeff, our community really needs someone with your background and your willingness to learn to help find accessible homes." That was the moment where things became clear in my mind that this is something that is a natural fit for me. Again, it was a good business opportunity as well. It was a perfect fit.

Shaun: That's amazing. I love that. Did you feel like, "Oh, this is almost a newfound purpose?" It sounds like to do what you did when you jumped in, the things that motivated you to get there, it wasn't as simple as, "I'm going to get my real estate license, and I'm just going to--" You were motivated by a passion and a vision for what was missing.

Jeffrey: Yes. Going even further back, I was building houses before I got my real estate license. I got my license to help sell the homes that I was building. That in itself gave me a really good understanding of homes, how they're built, and how to identify homes that could be modified for accessibility. Then accompany that with the accessibility side of things. Again, it was just a really good fit. It's also very rewarding. I get an opportunity to work with some fantastic people who have challenges that they need solutions for. I'm able to help them find solutions. Again, it's a very rewarding part of my business.

Shaun: I think we take for granted some of these challenges. Take me through some of those things, but first, actually, I want to ask you, what are some of the shortfalls that you've noticed making it harder for those with mobility issues or those with visual or auditory limitations when it comes to searching for a home?

Jeffrey: The information that's shared out there is not immediately evident as to what the accessibility features are or how these homes can be modified. It starts with disseminating information and finding properties that can work, are already accessible, or can be modified to meet my client's challenges. It always starts with a conversation with a person as to what are their needs. There's the traditional real estate questions, location, budget, but when it comes to barrier-free accessible real estate, then it's a question of what are the individual's specific needs that need to be accommodated within their home, and then helping them find that perfect fit.

Shaun: It's not one size fits all?

Jeffrey: It definitely is not one size fits all. Every individual is unique, and the solutions that work for them have to be unique and tailored to them as well.

Shaun: You had mentioned earlier that it's not clear when you're doing a search which houses are accessible or have accessibility features. If I'm just a person who is looking for a home and I want to do a broad search, I don't even have an agent yet, I would love to be able to go and see what houses do have accessibility features and which ones don't.

Jeffrey: Buyers love searching on REALTOR.ca. People are addicted to it.

Shaun: Love it.

Jeffrey: It's great. They do their research, and then they reach out and say, "Hey, I want to look at this house. If that resource was able to provide additional information about accessibility features, then that would be a definite bonus.

Shaun: Let's talk about some of those features. For example, can we go through what some of these features might be? In the dream world, where we can say, "This is what's going to be in the listing," what are some of those features that most of your clients are looking for?

Jeffrey: The two main features are definitely an entrance solution and a bathroom solution. You've got to be able to get in and out of the home or condominium safely, and the bathroom is necessary, obviously, to be able to stay. Those are probably the two primary features that buyers would be looking for. How do I get in and out of the home? What does the bathroom look like?

Shaun: I think if I were just to take that for granted, stairs are obviously not for everybody. The solution would be, would you look for a home that would have the ability to create a ramp, or it comes with a ramp? Am I right in assuming that that would be a solution to stairs?

Jeffrey: Yes. The entrance solution can take many different possibilities, a ramp, a landscape ramp, a wood ramp, a metal ramp, or it could even be a platform lift on the outside of a house. It depends on the height difference from the outside grade to the front door threshold. What's that height? Can it be reached by a ramp, or would a ramp be too steep? We've got to look at doing a platform lift.

Shaun: Talk to me about the bathroom.

Jeffrey: We always have to talk about the bathroom. Generally, when I'm talking with a buyer for the first time, the conversation quickly goes to the bathroom, because it's, what are their specific needs within a bathroom? Is it a zero-threshold roll-in shower? Is it a bathtub where they could work with a bath bench and then transfer into the bathtub? It is one of the first conversations, and it's one of the more important ones.

Shaun: It's very important. Getting on and off the toilet, entering the bathroom, the shower space is really important, the bathtub space is really important. When you're looking for a house, how much of it are you looking for that is already built in versus the ability to modify?

Jeffrey: The majority of the clients that I work with, we look for a house that can be modified for their needs, and there's a couple reasons for that. Finding an accessible home that's ready to go and available is pretty rare, and a lot of those homes were modified for a specific individual. Once they have a home that meets their needs, they stay for as long as they can in that property. They don't come up for sale very often.

If they do, is there a buyer out there who can make use of the accessibility features in that home? If it was modified for a specific individual, or was it modified more for universal design, which can accommodate anybody regardless of age or mobility? To go back to your question, the majority of my buyers end up buying a house or a condo that they can modify for their needs so they can make it exactly what they need it to be.

Shaun: What about kitchen?

Jeffrey: For the most part, I found people can make do with traditional kitchens as long as there's room enough to maneuver a wheelchair, particularly if you're cooking in a seated position. If an individual is living by themselves, then maybe they need to be looking at a modified kitchen. Kitchens can vary quite a bit. There's a lot of modifications you can make in a kitchen to make it accessible, like a roll-under sink, lower countertops, ovens, or a cooktop that have the controls on the front so that individuals don't have to reach over a hot element in order to change the temperature. There's a lot of safety features that have to be considered.

Shaun: Then I also heard there's a way to sometimes-- Some of it is pretty inventive and creative. I heard about you can push a button and things lower to you. You can get these built into your home?

Jeffrey: Yes. There's a company that will modify your kitchen cabinets so that the inside of the cabinets actually will lower down to the counter height. Then you can place your items on the shelves, and then hit a button or click a remote, and then the shelves rise back up. There's also shelving that was on a handle so that you can pull them down to a lower level. There's a lot of technology and innovation out there to make the kitchen accessible.

Shaun: Then as I'm walking through the home, I guess there's the entrance issue with stairs that can be resolved. What about within a home, going up and down the stairs if there are stairs or multi-leveled homes?

Jeffrey: A lot of homes are too small. The footprint is too small to add a mechanical lift between two floors. A big part of looking for an accessible home is finding a space that could accommodate an elevator. An elevator being an elevator in an enclosed shaft that goes between three or more floors. There's also a product called a telecab, which is essentially like a London telephone booth that goes between two floors. That gets mounted on a load-bearing wall, runs on a track, and that's sometimes a little easier to fit into a home.

Two-story homes, I think, are good in that they often have a lot more square footage. With the cost of real estate, the majority of the cost of a home is land value. It's not always possible to find a large ranch bungalow that's all in one level. A lot of people have to consider a two-story home and then find a solution to get up to the second floor.

Shaun: What about when we think about people with auditory or visibility challenges, what are some of those features that are considered in the buying and selling of homes?

Jeffrey: In condominiums now, for those who are hard of hearing or deaf, you'll notice with the smoke detectors now, they have strobe lights. It's not just a siren or an alarm that goes off. It's actually a strobe light that is very, very powerful. There's also, for lack of a better word, like a thumper that you can put in your bed so that if the smoke alarm or the CO detector goes off in the night, it actually wakes you up-

Shaun: Wow.

Jeffrey: -in your bed. There's definitely technology out there that can help in the home-buying, home-selling process.

Shaun: I love that. Now, with the advancement of technology in terms of lighting and switches and air conditioning, heat, HVAC, what are some of those advances that you're seeing that are not only convenient for people with accessibility needs, but just generally speaking?

Jeffrey: The whole home can be automated from opening doors to turning on lights to turning on motion sensor faucets. Pretty much everything in a home can be automated so that if someone's not able to physically do the tasks themselves, they can use something like Google Home and just say, "Hey, Google, turn on the light," or "Hey, Google, open the door." There's so many options right now in home automation, and it really provides a lot of flexibility and freedom for people to live independently at home.

Shaun: Yes. Jeff, I know that there are some organizations, there are some places in Canada that are starting on the good foot there. They're leading the charge. I'm actually here in Nova Scotia now where I've recently repatriated to, and as it turns out, the Nova Scotia Association of REALTORS® are really working hard to include more of those details in listings, really trying to shine a light on those features that are needed in the accessibility space.

Jeffrey: Absolutely. I think it's a great pilot project. I can speak to what's happening in Ontario. Over the last few years, there's more and more data that's being collected for homes and the accessibility features. I think it's so important to have that data and make it available. It's not just in Nova Scotia and Ontario, but all across Canada, this needs to be done so that everybody across the country has as easy access to the data and searching for homes.

I can't stress the importance of having floor plans for people to understand the flow of the home and being able to look at options for increasing a bathroom size. I think floor plans are crucial. They're definitely a valuable tool in the listing, along with all of the room data and the features data.

Shaun: Right. Now, is there something to be said about the definition of what makes something an accessibility feature? If I'm selling and I want to brand it as, "This is an accessible home," because we said it's not the same for everyone, is there some kind of criteria that makes something specifically thumbs up, it gives us the accessibility approval?

Jeffrey: The short answer is no. I think it's somewhat subjective to the individual who's inputting the listing as to what features, if they consider them accessible. Now, some of the criteria in terms of door widths, is there a roll-in shower? Is there an elevator? Those features are very specific. I find that there's a lot of listings out there that say they're accessible, but when you drill down, they're just talking about being accessible to the bus stop or accessible to the grocery store. It doesn't always line up with accessible from a mobility accessibility point of view. Accessible doesn't really have, I guess, a set definition when it comes to listing.

Shaun: I think of even your Aunt Jean, was it? Jean, she thought it was going to be, and then she gets in and is like, "No, this is not going to work."

Jeffrey: Yes, exactly. Had she had some more information about the kitchen layout, then yes, she probably would have known it more in advance that that wasn't going to work for her. That's a great example. You've got to have more information.

Shaun: Now, that was in 2004, and you have been working with clients for so many years. I'm sure a lot of agents who are watching this, REALTORS® watching this now, are like, "Yes, I want to be more involved and work with those clients more." What is a respectful way to approach accessibility in real estate with clients?

Jeffrey: I think it starts with a conversation. Every client is going to have a unique set of needs. It's just a question of talking to them, asking them what an accessible home means to them, and what are their needs, and just helping to understand how language is so important. How would you like me to speak to you? I always default to person-first language. People with disabilities, you're a person with a disability.

I have a client who said, "No, Jeff, I'm a disabled person. That's how I want to be referred to." That's their choice, but that's just a conversation that we had so that I can speak to them in a way that they're comfortable with. I don't think people need to be intimidated by it. Just simply ask the individual the questions. There's a saying that I love. It's nothing about me without me.

Shaun: Oh, I love that.

Jeffrey: Nothing about me without me. Don't make decisions on behalf of a person without asking them first. I think that's just so important. People love to be heard and listened to. People will always be happy to tell you their story. You'll learn information, and you'll learn how to speak to them effectively and respectfully, and then just take it from there.

Shaun: I think it's just like any personal one-on-one relationship. When you're developing a relationship, a bond, a shorthand, this relationship is going to last for a while because you really want to get to know, whether they are a person with disabilities or not, you always want to know what are their needs, what are their wants. In this case, it sounds like you don't need to tiptoe around anything. Just having a direct conversation asking, how do you like to be referred? How do you see yourself? What can I do to accommodate that? I think that just is, it's almost common sense, but maybe in the world we live in where people, they're not sure. I think it's good hearing that from you.

Jeffrey: It's not a quick and easy transaction. There's always some extra layers. There's always extra time. Working with people with disabilities is not for a person who likes to do a quick sale, a quick buy. That's not going to happen. It takes time to understand the client and to find them the right home. There's a lot of extra layers in terms of bringing in accessibility consultants to make sure that the home can be modified properly. There's a lot of extra considerations. That's why you need to be willing to spend that extra time with a client to make sure that It's done properly.

Shaun: I love that. When I think about some of these features and these elements, some of them, they actually sound beneficial to able-bodied and persons with disabilities. Talk to me about universal design. Talk to me about, are there-- We know it's not one size fits all, but clients are obviously thinking about resale value as well. A young person coming up, they know they need certain features in the house, but then they know that what if they want to move on? What if they get a job somewhere else in a different city? They want to sell their house. How are people with disabilities thinking about the resale value, or are they? Are most people, when they find their house, they stay? Talk to me a bit about that.

Jeffrey: I think for the most part, if someone buys a home and has it modified for their needs, they'll stay there for as long as they can. There's certain modifications that can be made that are very-- They make the home more saleable. For instance, a zero-threshold shower. I also call it a roll-in shower. That's probably one of the features that is most in demand with the clients that I work with. That feature, an elegant roll-in shower, is beneficial for everyone regardless of age or mobility. A lot of homes now are being built with these elegant zero-threshold showers. It's just a nice feature to have, and that definitely adds to the resale value.

On the other side of the coin is features that may be right for the individual, but not necessarily great on the resale value. I actually find, as an example, would be a walk-in tub. Those are fantastic for individuals who need them or like to use them. They're great tools. I always tell my clients, if that's something that you want, and that helps you live independently and comfortably in your home, then absolutely put one in, but when it comes to resale, don't expect to get your money back out of it because finding the buyer who wants that feature is pretty rare.

Shaun: Because people love bathtubs, people love taking baths, are there ults to that?

Jeffrey: There's not a lot of options when it comes to bathtubs. I agree with you. There's a lot of people who are bathtub people. They absolutely want a bathtub. If that's what's necessary, then go for it. There's also a chair that you can put in the bathtub that will then lower you into the tub. That's an option too. Again, it comes down to the individual and what works for them.

Another example are chair glides where you have a staircase where you have a mechanical chair that glides up the stairs. They're very helpful for people who are able to walk but maybe not navigate stairs, but when it comes to the resale value, I find that people aren't willing to pay a premium for a chair glide. They're more of a temporary fix for the individual. Again, a walk-in tub, it's difficult to get the money back out of those when it comes to resale.

Shaun: What are the other considerations? When you're talking to real estate agents who are out there, what are some other things to consider when you're engaging with clients?

Jeffrey: The accessibility consultants, we touched upon it earlier. I think it's really important that when an individual is looking at a home that you bring in the experts to confirm that the specific modifications can be done. Again, what the cost is. It's one thing to be able to do the renovation, but what's it going to cost? Then there's the safety component of it. Is there a second means of getting out of the home in an emergency?

A lot of people are concerned with high-rise buildings. They want to be on the ground floor of a condominium because they want to be able to get out in an emergency. The solution for that is called an evacuation chair. These are fold-up portable chairs that you can have either in the stairwell or in your unit that in a case of an emergency, you can transfer into the chair, and then someone can push you down the stairs because they have tracks on them that are designed to be pushed down a staircase.

Shaun: Wow.

Jeffrey: That's a solution for people who are concerned about living in a high-rise. Fire department ladders will only go up to the seventh floor, and that's only if the fire truck can get right beside the building. When you look at most downtown cores, there's buildings popping up everywhere, and they're multi-story. How do you get out in an emergency? In a evacuation chair.

Shaun: This has been such an important conversation. I think REALTORS® and real estate agents, they need to get caught up on all of this information. I think it's important to be able to connect with many people of all kinds. In closing, what are your things that, number one, you feel like the system needs to really catch up on, whether it be in the listings or what have you? What are other ways? Are there builders that need to consider more things? What would you do if you could be in control of everything? What would you change? What do you think is working? What do you think, Jeff?

Jeffrey: I think there's a lot of things that are working and that just needs to be improved on in terms of getting that data, getting that information out there to the public and helping everybody find homes that are accessible because when an accessible home comes on the market, it's really important to find the right buyer for that home, a buyer who appreciates all the accessibility features. That's certainly one thing.

Builders. There's a builder in Toronto, the Daniels Group, that is ahead of the curve in terms of offering pre-construction condos that are fully accessible. There's another group that's called the Accelerating Accessibility Coalition, which is a group of builders and professionals that are involved in the building industry. This group has got together to advocate accessibility and to promote accessibility.

These are all things that are happening that are very positive and important. I certainly want to see these initiatives to continue. Again, it's just having a conversation and just willingness to learn. That's how I got started way, way back. I just had a willingness to learn. You talk to the right people and you talk to your clients and just be open-minded.

Shaun: It's amazing because from what I understand, if I'm thinking about people who may come as clients, they're all going to be from all kinds of backgrounds and even with different disabilities. Talk to me a bit about that, some of the people that you've worked with.

Jeffrey: Aging in place is very popular now. There are people wanting to stay in the homes and in the communities that they're comfortable in. Can their homes be modified over time to accommodate their deteriorating mobility? That's something to consider as well. Again, going back to designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you're eight or 88, being able to live independently in that home for as long as you want, that, to me, is the goal.

Shaun: Thank you so much for doing what you do. This has been an incredibly insightful conversation.

Jeffrey: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it and I appreciate you bringing me on the pod.

Shaun: You got it. See you, Jeff. Go Jays go. Thanks so much, Jeffrey. What a great conversation, shining a light on accessibility issues in real estate. I learned a lot. I hope you guys did too. Of course, if you liked today's episode, be sure to like and subscribe wherever you digest your favorite podcast. Of course, today's episode is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), production brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining us on REAL TIME. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME. What a time. What a time.

Social media is a strong tool in the world of real estate. A REALTOR®’s online presence and personality can directly impact their professional success.

Katie Hession, also known as YOWCityStyle on Instagram, recently expanded her career to real estate. YOWCitySold is where she now leverages her experience as a professional social media influencer to build her business in real estate. She joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to share her journey from influencer to REALTOR®, why authentic content is always going to rise above, and how fellow REALTORS® can leverage social media to form stronger connections with their community and grow their business.

Transcript

Katie Hession: You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall.

Shaun Majumder: Amazing. Shaun is a wizard. You know, these days personal brand can lead to professional success, but what exactly does that mean? Personal brand, what is my personal brand? You know what? Social media plays a huge role in everything we do in life. As REALTORS®, how can, in this day and age in 2026, how can we leverage social media to help with our professional success and grow our brand, both professionally and personally, and how they come together?

Today we're talking to Katie Hession. She's an influencer. She's been through the social media game for the last 10 years and is now officially jumping into the real estate game. You can follow her on YOWCityStyle or most recently at YOWCitySold. When I say YOW, I do mean Y-O-W, Ottawa peeps. You know what I'm talking about. This is really exciting because, for somebody who has taken a personal brand and also been able to help other people build their personal brands, and now turning that into a professional brand and is about to grow, it's going to be exciting to hear our conversation with Katie Hession.

Katie Hession, I'm so stoked that you're here. I'm so stoked that we're going to have this conversation today. We're going to talk about personal brand. We're going to talk about your business brand, how they come together, something that, you know, a lot about and have been building over the years, which is so cool. In this world we live in now, man, so much lives online and who you are personally, but when we're talking to our REALTORS®, how important is the personal brand right now in everything that we're doing in business, especially in the real estate space? How important is that, or will this just be a fad and it'll be gone in a few years, and we can all just get back to the old school of putting up flyers?

Katie: I mean, you can choose to do it or not to do it, but I think one of the things that's always top of mind for a REALTOR® is looking at their sphere of influence and having a personal brand online is really just a way of taking that on turbo speed or magnifying it like crazy. My online community obviously is filled with people who I actually do know in real life, but then there's a lot of people in there that I've never met and hope to meet one day.

Shaun: Right. Give us some of your background. Tell us where you were raised, but then also, how did you get into this space? Why did you get into this space, and how has it evolved over time?

Katie: It's a long story, but I'm an Ottawa girl born and raised. I mean, if we want to go as far back, my resume is pretty colourful. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall.

Shaun: Amazing.

Katie: I know. Always on the good list. I studied sociology and business at Bishop's University. My first job was working in the audience research department at the CBC.

Shaun: Oh, interesting.

Katie: Then I went on to get my teaching degree in Australia, came back, taught special ed in Toronto for just over 10 years, moved back to Ottawa, and worked in the nonprofit space for a nonprofit called Mealshare helping to feed kids by working with local restaurants. Now I'm here. I think one of the main things as a common thread throughout my whole life is that I enjoy being a connector. I always remember what people do, what they need, and I love bringing people together to make some magic and make their lives better.

Shaun: That's built into your DNA. Some people I know, if you think back now in high school, you think about those people back in the day. They were always at the rallies. They were always face-first in all the fundraising stuff. Were you one of those people? Where do you think you get that from?

Katie: You're right. I was definitely on student council and worked at summer camps. I've always been just very outgoing. I think I'm a lot like my dad and also like my grandmother, who was also a REALTOR®.

Shaun: Oh, no way.

Katie: Yes, I think I definitely, my whole life, people would tell me that I was so much like her. Then again, for years now, everyone's like, "You're so much like her. You've got this personality that just would be really great for real estate." I've thought about her a lot during this journey.

Shaun: Oh, that's amazing. I love that personal connection that helps you make decisions later in life of like, oh, no, wait a minute. I thought I was here. Maybe I'm more here, and the spirit of grandma or nana, Nan. What would you call her?

Katie: Her name was actually Bonga.

Shaun: Bonga.

Katie: Bonga.

Katie: Not her real name, but that was her grandma name. I think it was one of my cousins.

Shaun: That's amazing.

Katie: She couldn't say grandma. Yes.

Shaun: Because she was a REALTOR®, you were around it. You saw her. You saw her connecting with people. You saw her involvement in the community. You obviously aligned with that. This real estate idea has been probably brewing for a while now because I know you do a lot of social media. Tell us, you're YOWCitySold, but you're also YOWCityStyle on Instagram. Tell us how you took that social media side of things, and now, it's blended with the real estate side of things. You're obviously just a people connector.

Katie: Yes. Not just online, in-person as well. It really has been a long time coming. I did start my real estate license back in 2005, 20 years ago. That was when I had my teaching degree, but there weren't really any teaching jobs. It's like, okay, everybody's always told me that I'd make a good REALTOR®, so I started it. Then, of course, ended up getting offered a job, so I shelved it.

Then I picked it up again right before the pandemic. I was supposed to write my first exam March 2020 and had to shelf it again. Then, about two years ago, I started the program again. It just felt like the right time. At this point, I've bought and sold two of my own homes. My kids are a little bit older, and I've got this great network online that I think is going to be very helpful.

Shaun: Right. Wow, the real estate thing has been brewing for a while, but then, where did the social media side start? Why did you jump into social media? What was social media like when you started versus what it's like now? Where do you see it going in the future?

Katie: It's actually been about 10 years now that I've been online. I lived in Toronto for most of my 20s, moved back to Ottawa when I was a mom. While I was on maternity leave, that was when we moved back. I was just trying to figure out the city. Again, I grew up here, so I do know the city quite well, but I needed to get reacquainted with it. Again, like we had said, the people say it's a bit of a boring city. I was like, "You know what? I don't believe that." I remember somebody saying to me, "There's actually a lot going on, but you just need to know the right people and where it's happening."

I saw that there was this lack for a resource. I wasn't going to start a magazine or a newspaper or anything like that, but starting a page on Instagram seemed like an easy thing to do. I started it, actually, by featuring other people. I would find somebody who I figured was a tastemaker in the city, and I would ask them, what's the hidden gem in Ottawa that a lot of people don't know about? I wanted to always make sure that it was something local-specific. You couldn't say a big-name restaurant that you like going to. It needed to be a local business here in Ottawa because, really, I really believe that local businesses are a huge part of what gives a city its unique identity.

Shaun: Not a chain that came in from the States, and now everybody loves going to that particular one on so-and-so street. You're saying, "No, this is an Ottawa staple. This is very specific to Ottawa," right?

Katie: Yes, something you couldn't find anywhere else.

Shaun: Right.

Katie: Then I landed two writing jobs for two different magazines and realized things are getting going here. Then I was also asked to be the stylist and spokesperson for one of our local shopping malls. That got me going on morning television, doing presentations about fashion, and that's when the brand deals really started to come in. I was really starting to get recognized.

Shaun: Which is more powerful right now, would you say, social media or television?

Katie: I believe social media.

Shaun: Yes.

Katie: It's just an easier way to connect to people. If you've got a link to buy something, it's right there. Even here in Ottawa, a local business that I worked with, he went on TV, and he also worked with me. The difference was quite big. I brought him a lot more customers.

Shaun: Right. There's something really direct to either your—in my case, if I want people to come out and see me do standup, or if I have a new thing going on, to talk directly to them is different than putting on a face of like, hey, I'm here to promote something to the massive public. When you're talking directly to somebody, they feel it, and they probably respond in a stronger way. What do you think is the most important thing when, whether it's REALTORS® or just people who are trying to expand their personal brand? What are those things that are most important when putting themselves out there?

Katie: I think that a strategy that I've had the whole time that hasn't really been a strategy is just showing up as myself. Most of my audience is here in Ottawa, so I will meet people online, meet them in person, and often people comment that I am the same person, whether I'm digital or in real life. Really showing up consistently as the same person over time.

Shaun: Are there some people who, online they're one thing, and then you've met people in person, you're like, wait a minute, that's not the same?

Katie: For sure. Even how people look sometimes, if they're using filters to change the way that they look online, and then you meet them in person. I'm a filter-free page. I did use them a long time ago, but I haven't used a filter in years.

Shaun: Do you think that people respond more, I wouldn't say positively or negatively, but I think in the changing face of a digital landscape, the more real, the better, I would think?

Katie: For sure. I think the introduction of AI recently is pretty important for that. Mosseri from Instagram said that they are even having a hard time distinguishing between what is AI content and what is real content because the AI is getting so good. What we're seeing now as a trend is that content that's going to perform better, it's things that are a little bit more raw, a little bit less perfect. You don't want things to look too polished, otherwise, the audience is going to think it's AI.

Shaun: Is that going to be counterintuitive, though, for the real estate game? I personally get that, and I think that's important. My dog, the other day, I took a video, and I put her online on my social media, and she spoke English, and then she flew away, which is not real. That does not happen in my household. That was completely generated by AI, but people are probably going to be like, "Shaun is a wizard." In terms of being counterintuitive in the real estate game, because if you go too unpolished, is there a risk, then, of being like, this person is not very professional? You know what I mean?

Katie: Yes, we obviously want to be polished to a professional level, but I'm trying to think of an example. I did a video recently for a furniture company, and in my filming, I stumbled over my words. When we edited the video, we actually started it with a little blooper and then got into the real video. Just showing she's a human, she doesn't speak perfectly all the time. There is a way to show that rawness and that realness without coming across as unprofessional.

Shaun: I know you have a few different pages, a few different accounts. What's the difference between Katie Hession, YOWCityStyle, and YOWCitySold?

Katie: I like to think of them as different lanes, but all with the same driver. Katie Hession, that's me. That's the foundation. That's where my values, my personality, my voice come from. Like I said before, I really, truly make sure that who I am showing up online is who you get in real life. I'm very active in the Ottawa community. I'm a spin instructor. I host charity rides all the time.

Actually, I'm at almost every charity event in the city. That's me. That can't be replicated. Then you've got YOWCityStyle, and that's where I show up online expressing more my playful, creative lifestyle side of myself. That's still rooted in community and storytelling about Ottawa, and just my life enjoying it. I like to be a resource for my audience there. In fact, on a Friday night, I can get a DM from somebody like, we're a group of 40-year-old girls. Where do we go for a cocktail at 10 PM? I'm a lifeline here. People DM me these questions constantly.

Shaun: You respond.

Katie: I respond.

Shaun: Right? That's important.

Katie: Really, YOWCityStyle is an extension of this community that I've built in real life, but then there's all these people who I hope to meet one day. Sometimes I see them on the street and get to meet them, which is wonderful. Then when we get into YOWCitySold, which is newer, I'm still focusing on living in Ottawa, but it's just a different level of service and guidance and trust and obviously talking about real estate because trust and professionalism in real estate is so important. I really focus on that when I've got my YOWCitySold hat on. I want that because people are making their biggest life decision here and trusting me with it.

Shaun: That's awesome. You've got three hats essentially, your personal, it's almost like you're in service to the city, but it all comes back to your personal brand, but YOWCityStyle is a little broader, more social, more fun, and then getting down to business with YOWCitySold, real estate focus. Is that difficult? I would think not with you because you are so authentic through all of them.

Katie: It's not difficult, but it's also strategic because a lot of people are like, "Oh, wow, you've got this great following on YOWCityStyle." If I were to start talking about real estate to a much higher level and using that as my main platform to sell, I would imagine I would probably lose some of my community there. I wanted to start a separate page where I could put a lot more content about that there. Then, obviously, using the two channels to cross-pollinate a little bit. You'll see more of me as a real estate agent on YOWCitySold, and then YOWCityStyle is more my day-to-day life.

Shaun: You really, even though you started the journey back in 2005, and now you just got your license two years ago, is that correct?

Katie: Officially? No, in December. I'm fresh. 

Shaun: Oh, dog. That's amazing. I love that. For you to get to this level now, but it has been since 2005 you started that process, you envisioned yourself in that space because you have an amazing grandmother who led the way. Now you're on the cusp. You're starting from zero, in a way. Not, but sort of.

Katie: I wouldn't say I'm starting from zero. Again, I've been pretty intentional with the types of partnerships that I've taken on over the last five-plus years, knowing that this was my end goal. Again, I wouldn't want anything on YOWCityStyle to impact any of my trust or credibility for real estate. It's been a long time coming. I have been able to help with social media in the real estate world over the last five or so years. I've always been just tiptoeing into it. Now it's official.

Shaun: Do you have specific tips? You've been in the game for 10 years. Give me your top three or four, whatever you would like to share with the world. For REALTORS®, in the next year or so, what would be some specific Katie Hession tips for social media?

Katie: I'd like to go back to our conversation about AI. With the rise of AI, it's really important that we stand out from AI. Embrace that imperfection to stay human. Being completely perfect online is not going to be your edge. I think that we need to think about those things that only you uniquely can do, like your personality, your opinions, your real-life experiences. How can you bring that into your content to show that you're a real person and not a robot? Again, like I said, one of my biggest strategies this whole time was just being myself. Obviously, you want to be open without really exposing yourself. I think about, would you walk into the lunchroom at work and talk about these things?

Shaun: That's a good bar.

Katie: I remember when I was going through the grueling licensing program here in Ontario, I was taking my audience along for the ride. Anytime I went in to write an exam, I told them I was going in to write it, and then I'd have to come out and tell them how I did. I was on a good roll, getting high 80s. Then one of my friends was like, "Katie, what if you don't pass one of your exams?" I was like, "That's the reality of what happens." It did happen. You need 75% to pass. I got 73%. I was pretty gutted, and I showed up online in my stories, and I told everyone. The amount of supporting messages that rolled in was incredible.

At this point, I'd done a few exams, and my people were really cheering for me. Obviously, to share in my misery was wonderful, but then there was a lot of comments also that came in that just said, "It's so amazing that you are being so vulnerable and actually sharing not being perfect, because that's what makes us human.” That's what makes you relatable. Just shed the idea of being completely perfect online. Find that rawness or realness that is a professional level to share at the right times.

Shaun: That, to me, sounds like, in the future, that's going to be a premium. Really cutting through the noise because there's so much noise online. So much noise, and some is nice and perfect, and some is broken. Even the broken stuff feels like you don't know anymore what's real and what isn't. Finding that personal voice, making sure you let that personality come through genuine.

I think the thing about AI, it has always been a thing where AI is doing its absolute best to mimic. That's all it's doing is mimicking. If it's trying to "sell something," it will mimic what you think that you need to hear. But when someone trips up, or they show a little frustration, or they show a little real moment of authenticity, no AI can really mimic the messiness of being a human.

Katie: I agree.

Shaun: Cool. AI, staying real, staying raw. What else do you have?

Katie: I think one of the biggest questions that people have when they have a platform or an account that they're trying to grow it. How do they grow it? It's one thing to master taking the perfect photo, making a great video. It's not just about posting it online. You hope that the algorithm picks it up. You hope that your audience engages with it so that it does get picked up more by the algorithm. I would say that community is probably your biggest growth hack. What I mean by that is that, look for ways to collaborate online. In a sense, what you're networking online with the goal of hoping to cross-pollinate your audience.

You could do this by teaming up with another agent, featuring local businesses, anybody who works in the sphere of what you do that would make sense to collaborate with. With Instagram specifically, they do have the collaboration tool. I can post something and then invite somebody to be a collaborator, which then means that same piece of content goes out to both of our audiences. Either you can do it that way, or you're hoping to create something that's going to be shared by others, that then you're tapping into everybody else's audiences.

Shaun: Collaboration sounds like a really good one, especially in real estate.

Katie: For sure. Again, it's just another way to network. I would say, as a client of a REALTOR®, too, it shows that you're plugged into your city, you're a part of the community. That just feels a little bit more real-life too.

Shaun: I feel like it's in everyone's best interest. It's a competitive game sometimes. Any business can be competitive, but more so in real estate, it feels like community is so important. If I'm a potential client looking for a REALTOR® and I see that happening, I'm just like, "They care about not just their own self-interest, but the community at large." That's very attractive to me.

Katie: Agreed. It's the whole idea of collaboration over competition.

Shaun: Right. That's great. Collaborating, finding your community. You also mentioned keeping it local. That's something that's really important. You're saying that will help you grow your number.

Katie: Because really, it's just growing by making sure that other eyeballs get on that piece of content that you've created. If it resonates with another person that doesn't follow you already, then hopefully it does translate into a new follower. One thing I find that is often forgotten is the social side of social media. Obviously, people are posting, hoping with this end goal of making a sale, but we need to remember to be social.

It's okay to drop the occasional salesy post, but make sure that you're also starting conversations with your community and joining them in. There's a lot of tools on Instagram too to get people to engage. You can have a poll, you can have a question box. Encourage people to DM you with a question just so that it's not just one-sided, you speaking at people all the time, and to respect it as a social space.

Shaun: That's awesome. What else? Anything else?

Katie: My third one is to treat your online presence or whatever content you're putting out as if it's a room full of people. Let's say you are invited to a dinner party. You're not going to walk in there and tell people immediately, what house you have for sale, or are you looking to buy a house, or here are all the stats, the data on the market right now. That's boring. It's not really how you start a conversation. Instead, look for ways to start a conversation that would build trust.

Maybe you can still educate your audience on things that have to do with real estate, but just keeping in mind that you're not always selling. You can position yourself as an expert. Build rapport. Let your personality come through. Because that lets your audience get a sense of you before you're even starting to talk about business.

Shaun: I love that. Even when I first started out, I remember somebody told me, he said, "When you're talking directly to camera, pretend like you're talking to someone you know, and you really are trying to connect with that person." In my world, it was a person. You're really sharing a story with that person instead of thinking about X number of people across, where you don't know a bunch of strangers. That's a little bit of a different feeling. The nerves are different when it comes to that. If I'm feeling like I'm connecting with one person, that really helps. I love that idea because the rules are different when you walk into a room full of people.

Katie: For sure. I think what you're saying, it's that idea of the marketing avatar. In my mind, with my YOWCityStyle page, my marketing avatar, so the person that I'm speaking to, is Jennifer, who works for the government. She wants to know how to have a good time in Ottawa. Maybe wants some elephant inspiration, wants to know what the newest restaurant is to go to, where to get some skincare, that sort of thing. Again, knowing who your ideal customer is.

Although I guess your customer base can be a lot broader when you're a REALTOR®. I think that it's going to help you be more human. I would actually recommend also that REALTORS® who have an existing page to look at what's in their feed right now and think, what is this conversation that's here? Just make sure it's not just a lot of data or just sold or listings that are coming up. You're allowed to sprinkle those in. Make sure that there's also a part that's showing you as a person and your personality.

Shaun: That's actually interesting. We haven't really talked about that or put much of a focus on that, which is the actual page itself, the actual presence online. Everybody's probably going, "Wait, I've been doing this for a while." Maybe somebody out there has been frustrated it's not getting as much traction as they want. Perhaps it's something in their posts that they've already put out there.

Maybe speak to that a little. Like you just said, when you're looking back at your post, you're going, "Maybe I'm doing this a little, like everything is a number or everything is just sold." What would you say are a way to, is it too late for people? Are they already like, oh, this is what I've already got. Now nobody's going to like me.

Katie: They're not screwed. There's hope. There is hope.

Shaun: Tell us how to realign.

Katie: Again, I would do that audit of your page and look what's there because, sure, you might have some existing followers already, but to bring in a new follower, and again, I'm talking about Instagram specifically here, when you find a new page—let's say you were to collaborate with another agent and then you're like, "Oh, okay, this is cool. Let's see who they are. I'll click on them and look at their page. What is there?" That's another big first impression that you're giving. For me, I have my YOWCityStyle page that's established, and a lot of people know who I am over there.

I've just launched my YOWCitySold page. I know that, with it being new, for me to attract followers over there, it was important for me to have some content that was there when I started talking about it. I haven't been too pushy about it just yet, but what I did was I went over to my YOWCityStyle page and looked at any past content that I'd created anytime I teamed up with a REALTOR®, anytime that I helped a property management company with a rental building, even furniture store. Anything that had to do with homes and real estate here in Ottawa, I went back and invited myself as a collaborator.

That content then also showed up in my YOWCitySold page. When I launched it was like, oh, okay, we'll check this out. She's got all this content, and it's basically like a big history or resume of things that I've done so far.

Shaun: That's great. That whole collaboration thing is really powerful, that tool.

Katie: It is. Yes, it's quite cool.

Shaun: When you're talking about real estate, what are the skills that you've taken from focusing on your personal brand, and how is that any different, or what are you bringing over to now that you're in the real estate side of things?

Katie: There's a huge overlap. If you think of both industries, the idea of trust and relationships and reputation are so important. We're selling trust. We're not just selling a product. Again, think of that. Anything that I've been doing online with YOWCityStyle is I've been storytelling about Ottawa for years. Marketing homes in Ottawa really feels like a natural extension of everything that I've been doing so far. I've always kept a deeply local focus, so I know the neighborhood vibes, not just the stats on what's happening in the market. I'm pretty comfortable on camera. Again, I think my teaching experience has come into play quite a bit. I love explaining things clearly.

I think when you become a REALTOR®, any entrepreneur-type skills are really important. I've been able to show up consistently on my own, a lot of self-discipline, any of those entrepreneurial skills that also a REALTOR® would need. Really, at the end of the day, both jobs are relationship businesses. You've got to think about how you can maintain that trust over time.

Shaun: You obviously are comfortable in front of the camera. I feel very comfortable in front of the camera, but there's people out there who just don't like the camera. They just don't like putting themselves out there and talking to something that is not a friend or family member or a pet. What about those people? They still have to put themselves out there. I'm talking specifically real estate agents. What do you say to those people who maybe aren't as driven to, and in fact, maybe fearful of it all? How do you help them along?

Katie: If it makes anybody feel better, I did not feel comfortable at first. When Instagram first started, it was photo-based. Taking a photo, that's fine. It's just one little split second in time. When video was introduced, I definitely stumbled over my words, and I felt really awkward. It came with practice. Really, I think a quote that's been really resonating with me lately with starting a new career is that you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great.

If you're feeling paralyzed that you just can't do it, just try. Video is obviously a lot more, I guess, harder on the nerves than taking a photo. You could look at maybe taking photos that at least shows your face, and then using some script on the screen to get your message communicated. If you're worried about choking up over your words, there are apps to be able to hit like a—what is it called when you're looking at the script?

Shaun: Oh, your teleprompter app.

Katie: There's a teleprompter app. That might make--

Shaun: You just read.

Katie: Yes, you just read, and it might make you feel better. I would say finding another agent or somebody who has the skills, or maybe just makes you feel comfortable, and get some practice. Again, it's not something you have to do. Again, it is very helpful.

Shaun: I would say, too, I know in my experience, stand-up comedy was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I look back now at myself, anything I've ever done back in the day, and I was terrible. Still, I can't watch myself. Like you said, the more you do it, the practice that you give it, you feel vulnerable and insecure about it at first. I think it was because of the expectation that we put upon ourselves. If I'm somebody starting out in the social media game, I might say it's like you have this perceived idea as to what you're supposed to be.

In truth, I think the more honest and real you are with who you are and what your feeling is about something, and you're not trying to pretend to be something that you think you're supposed to be, and I'm talking to the people who feel the most closed off to it all, I think it's the opening, that little tiny break of being closed off. Who you are is probably what people are going to respond most to, as opposed to somebody who thinks they know what it is, and they're putting themselves out there in a way where it's like, no, I want somebody who is so real and so honest, even when the imperfections are coming through.

I think that's really important. I love your piece of advice. That saying makes a lot of sense. You got to start to be great.

Katie: It will come with time. Again, I think we are inundated with these, like there's so many real estate TV shows right now, and these people are really good on camera. Is it that relatable? Is that relatable to the clients that you're looking after or seeking?

Shaun: Exactly. It's an ever-changing game. There's so much evolution happening in this space, and I want to encourage everybody to make sure you go follow Katie. Tell us all your socials, Katie, before we wrap this up.

Katie: YOWCitySold, the Ottawa airport code, Y-O-W, is my real estate page, and then YOWCityStyle is more my lifestyle, living in Ottawa. I recently did a trip to Prince Edward Island, which was really fun. 

Shaun: I saw that on your social media. It looked awesome.

Katie: I ate a lot of seafood. Both channels are there, and sometimes you'll see the same content on both pages, if it relates to both. That's where you can find me.

Shaun: That's great. Listen, Katie Hession, follow her on all of her socials. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME. I hope it was enjoyable for you as it was for me.

Katie: It was an absolute honour. Thank you so much for having me.

Shaun: Thanks. There you have it, guys. Leaning into social media is a great way to connect with potential clients and grow our personal brands, but also our professional brands. I feel like, after my chat with Katie, it's obvious there's a connection between all of them, whether you have your own individual brand, you have a social brand that's focused on lifestyle, but then that professional brand, you're still utilizing the same skills, you're utilizing the same philosophy. From what I'm taking, from what Katie's talking about, authenticity seems to be the number one most important thing. I took a lot from that, from her, and I'm very thankful for Katie Hession for joining us.

Again, you can follow Katie Hession on YOWCityStyle and also now, YOWCitySold. Please follow her. If you liked this episode, make sure you like or subscribe to wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks so much for joining us today on REAL TIME. We'll see you again. Peace.

Did you know that nearly 90% of Canadians under 30 want to own a home? Or that 61% of Canadians believe the homes being built today don’t meet the needs of Canadian households? While homeownership remains an important milestone, what it looks like and how Canadians think about it is changing.

David Coletto, CEO and founder of Abacus Data, joins this episode of REAL TIME to discuss recent findings in research conducted with the Canadian Real Estate Association, focusing on how Canadians view homeownership, and how “good data drives good decisions” when it comes to fair housing policy in Canada.

Transcript

David Coletto: First-time home buyers are saying, "Look, I've adjusted my expectations. I'm planning for a smaller home. I'm open to a different property." The demand, again, that the market is asking for, isn't aligning with what the supply is.

Shaun Majumder: What does homeownership mean to Canadians? Man, there's been a lot of talk about this over the last few years. It's an ongoing issue. Obviously, homeownership, affordable housing is top of mind on every single Canadian, all the governments, top to bottom. How do you break through all the talk? You're hearing all these rumors, you're hearing all these misconceptions, or are they real? We don't know.

Today, we're going to find out what the data says, which is great. Today, on the show, we're being joined by David Coletto. He is the founder and CEO of Abacus Data. He goes deep. Along with CREA, Canadian Real Estate Association, they have just published a report, which he's going to tell us all about right now. Here's my conversation with David Coletto.

This is exciting. Today, I'm being joined by influencer David Coletto. Now, hold on. I know when we hear the word influencer, we might be thinking social media. No, but David Coletto is recognized as one of the top 100 most influential people in Canadian politics in 2024, founder and CEO of Abacus Data. It's a great name, by the way. It's a great brand. At what age did you say to yourself, "When I grow up, I am going to be so immersed in data that I am going to be considered a pseudo Jedi in Canadian politics?" What age did you have that dream?

David: Yes, it's a weird one. I get that asked all the time, Shaun. Nice to see you. Look, I don't know when the light bulb went off because I don't think anyone really dreams to be a pollster. I do recall always loving numbers and using numbers to embed myself or become obsessed with things. I was the kid growing up in Toronto whose parents got the Toronto Star, and I'd come into the house when people still got newspapers. At the back of the sports section, there was the box scores for the baseball games. I would just sit there for an hour and consume it all.

You'd ask me what the batting average of some player was on some obscure team, and I would know. I think when I became interested in politics, that interest in seeing numbers as a way to describe politics became followed. It's a cool way to see the world, right? I think I get to ask questions to lots of people across the country all the time on everything.

When you pull it all together, you start to make sense of why things are happening, why people behave the way they do. I've always been interested in that, regardless of whether it's politics or housing or what bubblegum people prefer. It's a really interesting line of work.

Shaun: As a pollster, when you think about there's so many left-wing pollsters, there's right-wing pollsters, there's all this twisting of information these days. How do you guys manage that in terms of wanting to make sure that you're just basing everything on data and not opinion? How do you find that balance, especially in today's world, where we don't know half of what we're looking at is real or not real or biased or unbiased? How do you guys deal with that?

David: The first step is to recognize that we have bias. You can't completely eliminate it. Can you check that? Can you challenge your assumptions and your conclusions? I'm doing that all the time. Knowing who I am, where I grew up, what my background is, does put a perspective on everything. I've also made the decision—I've founded this company and been doing this work for over a decade and a half—that I would not do political work.

Abacus Data does not do any partisan political polling for any political party in Canada at the federal or provincial level. That allows me, I think, the ability to really look at things, when it comes to politics, as objectively as I can. Then I really work hard at it. I think it's never perfect. As I said, I do have a bias that I bring, but it's not a partisan one. I know a good week in my world is when both liberals and conservatives point at me and say, "He is the worst thing since--" because that tells me, when you like my polls, you think I'm on your side. When you hate them, you think I'm biased. That changes as the polls change.

Shaun: In terms of data, how do you respond to numbers don't lie?

David: I think, in my world, where the numbers we generate are from questions we ask people, that they can lie. You can ask a question in a way that gets an answer that you want. You can take a number and spin it in a way that's not really, I think, a good way of interpreting it. Interpretation of numbers is where you get disagreement. You can get different perspectives saying that number means different things to different people. I do think the numbers, depending on your perspective, can lie.

What I try to do is, again, ask fair questions, ask them in a way that thinks about the best practice around survey design, questionnaire development, all the boring stuff that nobody wanted to take in university, comes to bear when I do my work and my team does my work on a regular basis. I think anyone consuming the poll we're going to talk about today, or any poll, just needs to keep in mind who did it and what is the reputation of the person and the company that does it, because it does matter.

Shaun: Here we are on REAL TIME. Our focus, obviously, is in the world of real estate. You recently put out this report around home ownership. This is really, really interesting right now because, if you listen to all the noise, if you're on social media, you're hearing pundits talk about X, Y, and Z. We're in a housing crisis. The excitement for young people envisioning themselves owning a home one day is way down, depending on which side you're talking to.

That one there seems to be the one that has been breaking through the most, I think, at least, what I've been seeing. This report addresses some of that stuff. First of all, tell us about what this report is and what its focus has been.

David: Last fall, in September of 2025, we partnered with the Canadian Real Estate Association and did a large national survey. Almost 4,000 Canadian adults were interviewed to explore a number of questions, one of them being, what does home ownership mean to people? Why do they want to still have it? How are, particularly younger Canadians', expectations changing?

I think what we learned, from a big-picture perspective, is that I think that question of home ownership is in contest. There are people who are questioning whether they'll be able to do it, but overwhelmingly, younger non-owners still want to own a home. It's a desire that they hold deeply. That was the intent, was just to really test that narrative as you described, that is this something that people are losing interest in?

Is skepticism, maybe even pessimism, rising? What can we do to solve for that? What can government particularly do to help make the dream, the desire, or the hope for owning a home one day for more Canadians real?

Shaun: I remember when I first started thinking about wanting to buy a home, I had a guy who was my mentor in business back in the day. He did that old-school thing, save up, 20% down payment, take everything you make for a full year, blah, blah, blah. Boom, you put your down payment on your house, and you're in, and you go. It was much more achievable, I think, back then. What was the sentiment you found, especially in that younger demo? There's the report, but also what are you hearing generally about what would be the alternative for some of these young people?

David: Well, the first thing to say is it shows up when you either ask them in surveys, or I talk to them. I used to be a prof at Carleton. My class of 20-somethings really thought about housing all the time. I think it's come to define so much of the experience of younger Canadians. Either they're just trying to pay the rent or, to your point, figure out how to get ownership, become a homeowner. If they are a homeowner, how do I hold onto it? Because it feels difficult given all the things you described around employment security and rising and falling interest rates and the market's up or down, what is happening, and the global context that that's all happening.

What we know from this survey is this: close to nine in 10 younger Canadians say, "I want to own a home." There is some, to your point, skepticism around whether that desire is going to be achievable. We've tracked this with CREA over the years that shows that, yes, the dream, that desire still exists, but there is increased friction in it.

People are looking around and saying, "Look, I've been waiting for years. I've been doing the things you told me to do. I've been saving as much money as I can, but every time I save, the price goes up, or it becomes harder to get, or the rules change on how much I need to save in order to get a mortgage to then buy a home. Or look, the housing's not sufficient to what I need. I don't want a 500-square-foot condo. I want somewhere where maybe I have a partner, or I want to have a family."

All of these variables point to, one, a very clear North Star that still exists, that is still part of, I think, the Canadian dream, let's say, but a lot of doubt about whether the system all around people is going to make it harder for them to make that possible.

Shaun: Of those factors, what was top of mind for young people in terms of the friction part? Was it interest rates? Was it, was there enough inventory? Was it the size of house, the kind of house that they envisioned they wanted to put themselves in? What were those factors?

David: Well, I think they really point to some of those variables that have existed for a while, their ability to save, the down payment, the interest rates, the cost of building homes, but what this study really identified, particularly those that really were focused on wanting to achieve this goal, was, "Look, I don't think we're building, one, enough homes, and two, I don't think we're building enough of the kind of homes we need."

The so-called missing middle of the housing market. The small condos don't fit, and the detached homes are too big and out of reach, but we're not building enough in between. The stuff that is in the kinds of neighborhoods I want to live in might be slightly larger, might have certain amenities or features that I need for the lifestyle that I want, whether it be, again, having a partner in the home, having something that I can afford, and having enough space to maybe have a child or to have a dog or whatever it is you want in your life.

It's that missing middle that really stood out, that we're building housing. People understand it. They see the governments are engaged in this, but not enough homes that people can actually live in long term, is how I think a lot of younger people and Canadians generally are feeling about the kinds of housing we're building.

Shaun: The kinds of housing, that's interesting. In the activation of building these new homes, I would assume obviously the governments plays a big role, but there are many barriers to that happening. What are the barriers that you see in terms of actually activating this idea of like, "We're going to build 6 billion new homes in Saskatchewan alone?"

David: I think from the public's perspective, they would say that, one, it's all three levels of government, by the way, and in some ways, developers who don't have the incentives to build the right kinds of homes. I think half of Canadians, for example, say that municipal zoning rules are holding back that missing middle, that there are--

Shaun: In what way? How so?

David: Think of a municipality, a city, a small town, whatever, basically having rules on the books that says, "You cannot build a triplex in this neighborhood, in part because people don't like it or they want to keep the 'character' of the neighborhoods the same. This is only for detached homes." We're seeing changes. We're seeing a lot of pressure put on municipalities to change those zoning rules, but people recognize that this so-called NIMBYism, Not In My Backyard. The idea that people who live in certain neighborhoods, maybe with a certain type of home, don't want to see mid-rise buildings built, don't want to see more density.

It's density that often leads to these missing middle type housing, whether it's being like a townhouse or a triplex or a low-rise multiplex kind of home. I think we have seen over the last number of years that more and more attention has been put right down to the local level in government to change these rules and allow for more of this to happen? What we've seen at every level of government, provincial, federal, moving up, is how do you create the incentives for those municipalities to change the rules and to make it more affordable to build those kinds of homes for the developers that we talked about earlier to do it?

Obviously, these are businesses. They're not going to build a home they can't make money on. Right now, because of the cost of land and the cost of labor and the cost of getting loans for many projects, it's just really expensive to build an actual home. Those  are the things that I think public policy advocates like CREA are trying to solve for.

Shaun: Right. When we think of homeownership and the dream of homeownership, I'm sure, for my idea-- I grew up in a tiny trailer in small-town Newfoundland, with my mom and my wiener dog and my sister, Ronnie. It was actually how I got introduced to CREA because I talked at their conference. It was really fun to go through every single place that I had lived ever since I was a baby, and go back and look at all these spaces and look at all that.

The idea of what it is that makes me, "comfortable," or what I would imagine I would like to have in a house, has changed so much over the years. What are you seeing in terms of the desire from young people, what they thought they wanted, and then when they realize, oh, maybe I need to adjust this a little bit. Are they giving up on the home that they wanted, or is there some adaptability happening?

David: I think there's two things happening. One is the meaning of ownership is evolving, and expectations about what I can or should or need to buy are being reset in real time. Let me explain the first one. When it comes to the meaning of ownership, I think the simple way to think about it, it's less about the so-called dream home now and more about just having a home. For a younger Canadian who's starting this journey and they're looking at the idea, "I do want to own a home," it's not so much as a must-have life achievement as opposed to, "You know what, it'd be really nice to have that stability in my life."

When that mindset shifts, and I think it's fair to think about this, not as this entitlement among young people who-- I always hear it all the time when slightly older Canadians tell me, "I had to do all these things before I could buy a home." Well, guess what? Young people are also doing all those things, but it is actually harder today in order to achieve it. The realism in young people is actually not unrealistic. It's actually, they're saying, "Look, I'm actively adapting."

First-time home buyers are saying, "Look, I've adjusted my expectations. I'm planning for a smaller home. I'm open to a different property. I'm willing to move to a less desirable community than maybe I want to live in because I see the market, I see the world." Owning a home is still that important that those expectations are changing. The demand, again, that the market is asking for isn't aligning with what the supply is, and that's where this mismatch between that missing middle and this demographic, I think, really exists.

Shaun: When you think about a young person, think about, "Do I even need to purchase a home?" Are people saying, "Well, maybe I can save a lot of money and travel by renting for the rest of my life?" Is that an actual thing that I've heard people talk about?

David: It is a thing, but it's not the majority or anywhere near the majority view. There have always been people, by the way. Not everybody owns a home. Not everyone has always owned a home. I do think that, at some point, there may be some people who realize, I'm not going to be able to own a home, or it's not that big of a priority, but that's not most people. Most people say, "I'd like to own a home. I'm doing the things I think I need to do to get that home. I think it's important."

We know this, by the way. We did research, and CREA has done quite a bit of research to show the social benefit of homeownership itself. The things like you're much more likely to engage with your community when you own your home. You're more likely to have a family, which, by the way, Shaun, we need more people to have kids, not less, because our fertility rate's very low and we're not growing our population.

People feel more secure and safe. They're willing to take more risks when they have that anchor in their lives. The social benefit of homeownership is pretty well known. Some people believe the economic benefit is particularly true. We see data that suggests those younger Canadians, say, think of millennials, those now in their 30s and 40s, those who own their home are substantially better off financially in terms of their wealth, in terms of a whole bunch of variables, than those who don't.

It's actually encouraging more inequality. There's this gap between those who can buy and those who don't. What I think COVID did, like so many other things, is it reset, in some ways, where we could live. If you were able to work from home, it meant you could live farther away, maybe entirely from where you work. I know lots of folks that have moved from central Canada to where you are, Shaun, in the East Coast because it was more affordable. Better lifestyle in their minds, and they could do it. They could work.

That's shifting back now as more and more employers are asking or forcing their employees back into the office. Again, at one point, people could drive as far as they could to afford something; that pressure's back on now. I think we are seeing, again, that demand for this appropriate housing is going to continue to increase and put pressure on policymakers to adjust how the incentives exist and will create the space, I think, for this kind of housing to be built because this is a large generation still who are asking for these kinds of changes.

Shaun: We're going to talk more about the missing middle in a bit, but I am curious, as you're talking about people having to come to the realization, "Maybe I have to move outward from where I work," when I think about downtown Toronto, I know everybody's all about Toronto, but Toronto is a place that I can relate to because I moved from Newfoundland to Mississauga. I was on the outskirts of Toronto, and I would always come downtown.

This is way back in the '90s. I always remember being like, I rented an apartment downtown Toronto because that's where I had to be. It was amazing. I lived downtown. My career launched downtown. I didn't have to buy a car. I didn't own a car. I could get around downtown. It was great. Since I left, that has changed dramatically, I think. Is there still that hot desire by young people to be like, "I want my own pad downtown, condo, cool, hip, in the mix, urban lifestyle?" Is that getting hotter, or is it getting less, and more people are thinking, Brampton, Oshawa, out, out, out?

David: Look, I don't think there's a simple, clear answer. I think there's still demand for living in the center of large cities for all the reasons you just described, particularly if you don't have a family, or you're deeply committed to your career, or you love the energy that living in a downtown space provides and the amenities that it provides. Yes, there's still going to be demand for it. What we see is that the moment that your life stage or cycle or preference shifts, downtown doesn't provide the kinds of space.

Most of the new condos that were built in Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Halifax, Ottawa, where I live, downtown are not three bedrooms with 1,200 square feet. They're studios or one bedrooms of 500 to 600 square feet. At some point in your life, that will not be sufficient. There's not enough space. That is what I think is happening. Because affordability around many of these markets has been so difficult, you actually are finding that people are willing to drive, let's say, use the GTA, the Greater Toronto Area, as an example, you said Mississauga.

For now, if you are a 32-year-old ready to move out of that, maybe if you were lucky to own that first condo and move to a larger place, you can afford Mississauga. Maybe if you know geography, you can afford Burlington. You're going all the way, maybe to Milton, which is maybe an hour outside of the downtown core, because that's the place you can actually afford to buy a home, whether that be a houndhouse, detached, or a semi. That drive to afford has become a choice that a lot of people have had to make.

Shaun: David, I would love to get into some more specifics about this report. There's a lot of misconceptions out there about the desire for homeownership. Can you tell us a little bit, the numbers? What do the numbers say? Can you get down into the details a little more about what some of these numbers tell us about the desire for homeownership?

David: Let's just level set. When you look at all Canadians who don't currently own a home, and you ask them, "Would you like to own a home someday?" 65% say yes. Among those under 30, it rises to 86%, which is close to almost everybody. It's not everybody, but it's close to it. Among families with young kids who don't currently own their home, that's 84% would like to own a home someday. Again, there are some people later in life who don't own a home who've said, "Look, I don't want to. It's not important."

It's still something that's a desire for most. Overall, just over half of Canadians say that owning a home is important to them. It's the difference between I want to and it's important. I think only 11% say it's not. The aspiration is still very much there. As we discussed earlier, that pathway, though, to achieving it just feels narrower and narrower. The longer we talk about this, the longer it seems that we can't make progress, the more skepticism, I think, that people have.

Shaun: If you were to carve it up, what are you seeing more of, optimism or cynicism/pessimism?

David: I think, unfortunately, it's more pessimism right now. I think there is still about a one in three non-owners who want to own who say, "Look, I'm still optimistic. It's going to happen for me. I think all the things that I need to do and need to come together are going to come together." There's a whole bunch more people who look around and say, "Look, I don't know. There's so many variables. There's so much change happening that this just may not happen." They're losing some hope in it. I think that is clear.

What's really important is that emotional state has an effect on a whole bunch of other things. It's something we've been monitoring, and I know CREA and REALTORS® generally have been really focused on because they're in the business of homeownership, and they want to ensure that our policymakers, who have spent a lot of time, by the way, over the last number of months, focused on what some describe as non-market housing.

Think of purpose-built rentals, more deeply affordable social housing, all important. We are losing sight of the true, I think, desire for almost everybody, which is still to own that home, and how do we ensure that that desire can be achieved? That, I think, is a big part of the conversation.

Shaun: It sounds like the formula is there. There is a desire, but there's a problem. There's a missing piece. I know when we talk about the missing middle, we'll get to that. What I'm hearing you say, too, is that it's in our society's best interest, it seems, that people achieve that goal, not just for individual financial success. Can you tell me a little bit more about that in terms of what the benefits of homeownership—you touched on it earlier—are you able to just deduce based on what you see, the importance, not just financial?

David: Yes. I think, over the decade that I've been doing this work with CREA and other housing advocates and organizations involved in housing, it's become very clear to me. I use a term stats guys like me use, "correlation," which basically means what's the relationship between X and Y? You're basically asking what's the relationship between solving the housing crisis, solving the homeownership dilemma that we face, and a bunch of other things.

What's clear to me is there's four or five variables in which housing is at the center of. We have seen, for example, in other research we've done, a rise in the number of Canadians who think our immigration levels are too high, that we need to turn off all immigration to Canada. One of the big factors that drives that view is that people think there's not enough housing.

Two, we have a productivity problem in Canada, an economic productivity problem. That is not a sense of, by the way, that we don't work hard enough. It's that the input we put into our work doesn't produce enough. How do you solve for that? Well, make it easier for people to get to work. You don't solve the productivity problem unless you solve the housing problem. You don't improve quality of life, people's sense of value, sense of purpose, unless you solve the housing crisis.

Then lastly, as we've already talked about, I don't think we solve our population problem. Canada's aging rapidly. We won't, I don't think, overcome that problem, at least partially solve it, unless we make owning a home and having appropriate housing easier because we know that there's a direct link between having that proper home and maybe having more than one child or a child at all.

I think, yes, housing is very much at the center of almost everything in the country. If we don't solve it, I'm not sure we solve some of the other big things that are facing, domestically, the country right now.

Shaun: Where would you place homeownership in the list of to-dos? If you were the king of Canada,and you could simply say,-

David: God help us.

Shaun: -"This is what my priority is right now, and this is what I'm going to do," where would housing fall into the priority?

David: It needs to be near the top. That's where Canadians put it, by the way, when you ask them. When you ask them, "What are the top three issues facing the country? What do you want the government to do?" All governments, housing is always at the top of the list. It's particularly true among younger people, but it's true among older ones too, who recognize that we are not going to solve these problems. We're not going to make Canada the place that attracts the best and brightest, that keeps the best and brightest, that achieves our full potential as a country, unless we solve it.

I get the sense, by the way, that I think most of our political leaders understand that. The question, though, is, are they doing the right things? I'm not a policy expert on housing, but a lot of the things the public thinks we should do, build more smaller attainable homes, put policies in place that make homeownership more realistic, ensure that the incentives are there for home builders to build in the right neighborhoods and build the right kinds of homes are common sense to most people, and they don't understand why we aren't doing them.

I think we are seeing progress, in my view, but there's still far more to do. I think it requires advocacy on the part of REALTORS® and anyone who wants to see housing at the center of every government's policy agenda.

Shaun: I hear the term affordable housing a lot. What does that mean in your mind?

David: I think it means different things depending on who you are, but generally, it means I can get a home, I can own, I can rent, I can live in a place that I can afford, that it doesn't stretch my budget to the point where I'm making choices, like whether to feed my family, whether to make other difficult choices because I've got to pay the rent or the mortgage or whatever it might be. I think most Canadians, regardless of their age, say that housing in their neighborhoods is unaffordable.

There hasn't been any hope that it's getting more affordable, and so that notion of affordable housing is simply, "Do I feel that at the end of every month that not too much of my income is going to pay for putting a roof over my head?" That I think is fundamentally what affordability is. It's a relative measure because if you make more money, you can afford more, but it is simply that idea that my housing isn't completely making everything else impossible to achieve.

Shaun: I left America almost a year ago to move back to Canada, and the difference in that feeling of community and Canada as a whole, regardless of the divide politically, it feels much more united. That's the one thing I'm hearing a lot about in terms of the housing crisis, is that there is a true desire on all levels of government, society, and so on, they want this to get better. What, in your mind, that you're seeing, at least in the data, is the solution to this?

David: I think it's twofold. I think one is we have to solve the supply side of this equation. What homes are we building? Are we building enough of them? Are we building the right ones? I think, over the last five or six years, the public broadly has moved from thinking the problem was fundamentally about their inability to pay or afford the home, to recognizing that it's much more about supply, that we're just not building enough.

Our population grew really rapidly between 2022 and 2024. The planning around that increase in our population was really bad. That meant that we put an extra amount of pressure on all parts of the housing market, and that is a lasting experience in people's minds. I think we are seeing indicators of that NIMBYism I talked about earlier, that "Not in my backyard, I don't want to see that house there," starting to weaken because no one can justify that position anymore.

That it just doesn't make sense to be able to say, "We shouldn't build that here because I don't like the way that looks," when we know that so many people don't even have a house and are having a hard time finding an affordable one. I think the second piece, though, is coordination across levels of government. If Canada's a great country, despite the fact we're a really hard place to govern, where you have three levels of government, very different policy instruments in all levels, and so how do we get each one to work together regardless of your political orientation?

Everybody agrees on the urgency of this. This is something we need to do. We might disagree on some of the causes, but fundamentally, different diagnoses, same prescription. That is clear in the research. That's the optimistic piece is that we are all rowing in that direction. This isn't a divisive political issue, which sometimes is a problem for politics, because politicians like division sometimes because they can win on it.

This is one where I think we are very much aligned. The optimistic take on all of this is we can do this. As much as the world is forcing us to explore our relationships with other countries, to question our relationship with the United States, the fact is, we have all the wood we need to build homes. We have a lot of the labor. We have lots of land. There's no reason we can't achieve this. I think the public believes that as well.

I think we are now aligning federal, provincial governments. The federal government's doing a lot. I think there are advocates who work at CREA. A lot of the REALTORS® watching this wish they would do more. I think the optimistic take is that this is possible. I think the country is now ready to see it. The public license is there. I always say that, when I look at polling and policy making, the public's view, three things have to happen. One, the public has to recognize there's a problem. Two, they have to believe there are viable solutions to the problem. Three, there's got to be political will. They've got to be willing to vote for it, be willing to force their politicians to act.

It's undoubtedly all three are now in place. For a long time, the public's recognized it's a problem. For a long time, they've agreed there are solutions that just aren't being done. I think we're seeing in election after election, at all levels of government, there is a sizable, sizable number of voters who say, "I'm going to pick who I support based on where they land on housing." That's the optimism that these three things have come together, and they're very much aligned on acting. I think it just requires continued push by REALTORS®, by all the advocates out there who want to see housing at front and center on government's agendas.

Shaun: It feels like, within Canada, a lot of it, it's like it's earnest. It feels grounded. It feels real.

David: It doesn't matter whether you're a liberal supporter, a conservative, whether you're younger or older, whether you live in Newfoundland and Labrador or in British Columbia; everybody agrees housing is expensive, and we need to do something to solve it. There aren't a lot of issues in which you can bring as diverse a country together as Canada and have them all point in the same direction.

Shaun: Right. This report has gone a long way in identifying the fact that there's still a desire there, and with working with CREA and going to government, they need to not only acknowledge that there's a problem, but there needs to be action now. Does a report like this help activate that? It's not biased, it's very clear, it's all in the numbers. Is that something that you see being a very valuable thing to activate change?

David: Yes, look, I think good data helps make good decisions. I think what we learned from the research we did over the last few months is that, one, Canadians are adapting faster than the housing market is. They're not asking for perfection; they're just asking for something attainable. That the missing middle of housing, those smaller, in between the condo and the single detached home, is the clearest pressure point, because it's where this affordability we talked about, Shaun, meets livability.

We only sometimes talk affordability, affordability, affordability, but people still need a place that fits with the life that they want, and they're changing those expectations. I think ownership becomes realistic again for a lot of families and first-time buyers when we make those kinds of changes. Those changes, those expectations are changing. Now they just simply want governments and the market to change what gets built. Then they believe they'll be able to achieve that goal, that dream of owning a home, which, again, almost everybody under 30 still believes is possible.

Shaun: What can agents do when they're talking to clients to try to, I don't know what exactly it is that they would do, but this information is very valuable. That must give them some clear insight into the kind of guidance that they can give their clients.

David: Yes, to their clients, in terms of thinking about the demand that's there and how to better serve your clients, I also think there's a lesson here. One is don't be afraid to advocate for homeownership because the public's behind you. The public wants it. Two, you've got to engage with those policymakers. As much as the polling lays this out, and politicians love polls, they also knock on people's doors, and they need to hear from people that housing's top of mind.

That's another place that REALTORS® can continue to focus the public and make sure the politicians hear that from the people who live in their communities. Apart from the politicians, I always say the REALTORS® are probably some of the best-known people in a community because their faces are all over bus stops and all over on signs and stuff. They have a role to play and are the strong advocates for a good housing market. I think this data just gives them the proof points that the public's behind them, and they've got the social license to push this issue forward.

Shaun: Where can people read the reports?

David: We've got a bunch of reports that we've put on our website, abacusdata.ca. You can also find more information on CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association's website easy. Search Google, Abacus Housing CREA, and you'll find all the details of the polls that we talked about here, Shaun.

Shaun: Awesome. David, thank you so much, man. This has been so insightful. Even though the winds are cold, and they're a little bit in your face, and there's a bit of sleet, and it's uncomfortable pressing forward, I think there's a warm wind at our back. I think the future is brighter than it may appear right now, especially with the public sentiment being as it is in terms of the dream and desire for homeownership. It's still there, and the numbers bear it out.

David: It does. I think as long as the public puts that pressure on policymakers, on the demand is there for developers, I think markets usually respond. That's what keeps me hopeful that we're going to solve this. I'm going to keep working on trying to understand how people move, and how to move them, and what they want, because I think that's the best way to do it.

Shaun: Awesome. Thank you, David Coletto. I appreciate you, and happy, happy 2026. It's going to be a good one.

David: Thanks, Shaun. Great to see you. Take care. Cheers.

Shaun: Thanks so much, David, for those amazing insights. Look, the data says there is still a great desire by the majority of Canadians to own a home in this country, regardless of the headwinds, but there is that glimmer of optimism that is there. I'm heartened to hear that. It's not just an opinion. The data shows that is there. There's still work to be done, people, so get out there, advocate for these changes that need to happen on all levels of government and your policymakers.

Get out there, bang on the doors, and tell them, "Let's get this thing going," because the desire is there. Again, thank you to David Coletto from Abacus Data for sharing his insights. If you liked today's episode, please go and subscribe wherever you digest your favorite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, production brought to you by Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining us on REAL TIME, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Being able to identify upcoming trends is an important skill in any business. It allows you to plan, strategize, and position yourself at the front of the pack. Sébastien Fauteux, Creative Director at Urban Barn, has spent nearly 30 years anticipating and capitalizing on design trends inside Canadians’ homes—and now he’s here to share those insights with Canadian REALTORS®.

On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, Sébastien gives us his perspective on identifying trends, when to take risks, and some practical takeaways on how to make a lasting first impression.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: It is important to see how people interact with their space, but also how they choose to present themselves. Do I look old in this old-school sweater?

Shaun: Today, we're diving in to how to identify emerging trends. Trends, yes. What is trending? What isn't? I'll tell you who knows about that is a man by the name of Sébastien Fauteux, and he is from Urban Barn. He's the creative director for Urban Barn, Canadian-owned, Canadian-operated. This guy has been forecasting trends for over 30 years, which, if you think about trend years, that's over 1,000 years, really. The guy's been at it forever. Think of him as a trend meteorologist, but with better lighting. He knows how to predict the weather, but with better lighting. The guy's great.

We dive into everything. We figure out how to identify emerging trends, how to stay ahead of the curve, how to read your audience, and why forecasting in real estate does actually matter. Not only in the marketplace, but you as REALTORS®, how important it is to understand shifting buyer attitudes, what actually attracts and keeps clients coming back for more. Also, we have a great little section on, when staging a house, the things. He's got some great tips about that. Let's waste no more time talking to me. Let's get into it with my guest today, Mr. Sébastien Fauteux from Urban Barn.

Look at this. Sébastien, what do you think of my sweater? This sweater is something my wife has been shopping for me. She goes to a lot of secondhand stores. She has brought back, probably a box a day of some great finds of old-school sweaters. Do I look old in this old-school sweater?

Sébastien Fauteux: No, not to me. Not at all. Not to me. It's funny that you say that because I think that you have vintage shopping and things like this, and the new with the old as well, and things like this, it is something that we see. Listen to your wife. That's what they say.

Shaun: Now listen, you're an expert at seeing these things that we're seeing over periods of time. Trends, something that you are-- You have to be dialed into trends, don't you, Sébastien?

Sébastien: This isn't something that we look at as well. Here at Urban Barn, I look at, certainly, home decor and furniture trends, but you look at trends overall as well to see what influences people. As much as you look at food trends and fashion trends and also lifestyle activities as well, and the patterns that have changed over the years as well, it is important to see how people interact with their space, but also how they choose to present themselves, how they choose to do the choices that they make as well, and how can we connect those dots as well? It's not as unconnected as we think it is. When we talk about home decor and lifestyle and the way we present our home, the way we present ourselves, all this is connected.

Shaun: It's all connected. Now, tell me how you first connected with Urban Barn. Tell me about your story. How did you become involved with Urban Barn? What's your background?

Sébastien: It was 28 years ago that I joined Urban Barn. Urban Barn is 35 years in the making. A proudly Canadian company, still to this day, own and operated in Vancouver. I was a young university student in Montreal, and came here on vacation and fell in love with the West Coast. I decided to move here to do my graduate degree, my master's degree. Then one thing led to another. I met these two founders who started Urban Barn 35 years ago. Then I joined them when they had two stores, and the company grew to what it is today at 55 locations across the country. That's my journey.

It became truly like a passion for me, like the idea of being creative and having a business and a merchant idea, and the idea of being analytical at the same time. Then that's how it happened. Often, we think of retailers in Canada starting in the East Coast, often in Montreal or Toronto, and making their way across the country. At that time, looking back, there were Little Lemon, Aritzia, Arc'teryx, Urban Barn. We all started around the same time in Vancouver. They're all now success stories in Canada. Looking back on this, we're proud to what we're doing and proud to be now across the country as well.

Shaun: That's amazing.

Sébastien: We opened a store in Nova Scotia, and we're so happy with that.

Shaun: When you first met the two founders, did you know you wanted to get into retail? Did you know you wanted to get into design? What were the things that drew you to working with them, and how did that relationship start?

Sébastien: My story is a little different because I studied Canadian literature in French, moved here to pursue it in English. I got a job in the book industry as a book buyer. I realized that maybe the business aspect of it I really liked. That business was what really spoke to me. Old and behold, I figured out that maybe there was not a lot of profit and business in the book industry back then was a bit struggling. Back then, it was Amazon starting selling books at the beginning, and then there was a real competitor.

I joined Urban Barn, but I always knew I was creative. I always knew that. I really developed the business aspect of it when I joined Urban Barn, and they welcomed me with open arms. These two guys that says, "Yes, you want to do this, this, this. Go for it, and let's move forward." Then this is when we start expanding to Edmonton and Calgary, Winnipeg, to start with focusing on the West Coast, and then later on to Ontario, Quebec.

Shaun: Naturally, your skillset, no matter what it was, you came from books, but yet you had this hunger, and that seemed to align with their early development, because you said they only had two stores, is that correct?

Sébastien: That is exactly what happened. Also, it's a path of a lot of people, maybe of my generation, and even today when I talk to my colleagues here that are younger, it's like we're supposed to decide, and I can speak to a lot of people, very early on, what are you going to do for the rest of your life, but you're supposed to be 17 when you decide that. You know yourself, you know what you don't like, you don't really know necessarily what you can develop to become better at as well.

Your journey sometimes, and you hear that a lot, where the journey goes in a different direction than you might not have planned, but looking back, it was the right direction that your life took. This is how I came to do what I do, but I think it's a journey that is not too unfamiliar to a lot of people as well.

Shaun: Yes, because you started early with them, and you've been loyal, and you've been with them ever since. That is an uncommon path for a lot of people. Usually, I'd be speaking to you, and you're like, "Yes, I went to business school. I started my own company. We failed three or four times, so I got a job as a therapist. Then I became a figure skater. Now I'm jumping back into the retail world, and all the skills that I learned doing the other things that I wasn't supposed to do, I now do."

For you, what were those things early on that you felt most aligned with, not only generally retail, but also Urban Barn-specific vision?

Sébastien: I think you're right. I think looking back and see, you've been here for 28 years, it's a long journey, but I haven't done the same thing for 28 years. The company has grew over the years, and I had the chance to grow alongside in the same journey as the company. It's not always the case. Often, there's a crossroad, you need to choose different directions to grow and develop, and widen their scope and their expertise as well.

For me, the company grew at the same time as I did as a person, both in leadership and business and acquired skills and things like this. I was really open about adapting to change as well. That's a big thing. The market has changed over the years, the access to product, the customer's journey has changed over the years, the social media aspect has changed over the years as well.

When I started, print magazine was the thing for home decor and furniture. We did participate in that. Then TV shows, segments in TV shows, so the Marilyn Denis of the world, and the CityLine of the world, and then HGTV. You participate, and you're embracing that as well. Then it became social media, website. The presence of the website took a very different part of the journey of an omnichannel retailer.

As a business and as a person, whatever role you have, I think you need to decide if you're ready to accept change and play a part in change management yourself, and not just ask for change to happen to you, but be active in change, but also learn to develop and grow your skills. That's been my approach as well. That's the approach that the company had as well. Over the years, any kind of company, any kind of business, you're always going to have some roadblock, or what we call sometimes walls into a journey of a company. They're part of a process of a business. They're part of an illusion of a business.

The goal is to work through those walls. As you get better, I did see them coming in forecasting, the walls are going to happen. Then the choice that you have is then to be an active participant in change. Then in the future, be able to look back on those hurdles or roadblocks that you had or big change in the company and say, "This was a milestone." You work through it, it was a milestone. It's anybody's personal journey or business journey, I think that's the way I see it, and it's the way we ended up moving forward as well.

For me, yes, I've been here for a long time, but one can argue that I've been in four different Urban Barns through the journey because changes happened along the way. I was open to change and open to grow and develop as well.

Shaun: That's amazing.

Sébastien: You also have to be open to having new people coming that are from the outside into the organization. They have a different journey, different experience. I think you have to be open to that, coming in and say, they have a toolbox that you don't have, and they have experience that you don't have. It brings you something, and you can learn from them because what you can bring is the experience of the legacy of Urban Barn. That's the way I see it.

Shaun: That's amazing. I remember I was working once on a New Year's Eve special in Newfoundland, and the clock for the countdown in Newfoundland was off by 10 seconds. It was the turn of the new millennium, the Y2K thing, when the world was supposed to end. The clock was off by 10 seconds in Newfoundland, go figure. It made us laugh. The producer I was working with, he said something that has stuck with me forever. He was like, "Shaun, excellence through flexibility."

That was his little grab of that moment. It's like excellence through flexibility. Exactly what you're saying in terms of going with the flow, moving, following the ebb and flow of the company, but also things that are happening with the customer and marketplace, all of that. You develop those skills. What is your position and title, if we can say that, for Urban Barn?

Sébastien: I've got two titles. One is a bit more creative, and one is a bit more business-driven, but I'm the creative director for the company.

Shaun: Creative director. Big role.

Sébastien: I lead the purchasing team, the planning team into product assortment, creative directions, colours, and feels, and theme for seasons and directions that we're taking short-term, medium-term, and long-term as well for the product. That's my title. Then, when we look at the business title, it's general merchandise manager. I manage all the product categories because it's beyond just the purchasing and the design.

It's also managing distribution, allocation, product planning, assortment planning, budget. That becomes part of the mix as well. It's like you become good at budgeting and you didn't think you would want to do that, but you say, "Oh, this is a skill that I have that maybe I don't like, but I'm not that bad." That's what happens.

Shaun: Jack of all trades. Now, what are the categories in Urban Barn? What are the product categories? Take me through some.

Sébastien: I would say we have two big buckets. I think the big buckets are furniture and home decor. These are two big buckets that we have. We have outdoor furniture in the summer. We have holiday decor at Christmas. This is the exciting part. Decor is the exciting part, also where you can be a bit more playful, a bit more whimsical, and maybe take a bit more chances in colours and textures, and styles, and so on and so forth.

Shaun: You really have to be dialed into what's trending and what isn't.

Sébastien: You have to dial into what's trending, and both in a trend, per se, but also you have to read and understand your customers. Often the best way to do this is to analyze product performance and see what did well, what did not do well, what colours did well, what scale did well. If it did, why? If it did not, why? Was it the price point? Was it the scale? Was it the colour? Was it because it was sometimes ahead of the trend? It happened before. Sometimes, did you push it too far, too early? Then, or is it just maybe the trend has tapered down as well, which happens as well.

Shaun: Where do you spend more time thinking about? Are you forecasting? Are you reading the tea leaves? Are you looking into your crystal ball and you're going, "Ah, I think this is happening. It's big in Australia. It's happening in the States. Maybe we can get ahead of it here." Are you taking your cues from the customer who's saying, "We don't like this," or "We really want this," and then, therefore, you're playing catch-up? That's a real challenge. How do you make those forecasts, and what are you looking for for inspiration?

Sébastien: It's funny you're referring to the crystal ball because it's a running gag at the office right now when we talk about buyers. What's in your crystal ball for 2027, for example, as we work 12 to 18 and up to 24 months in advance? In your head and in your office, physically, it's a big clipboard of information because we do travel around the world. We spend time in Germany. I travel personally. This is where business and hobby and lifestyle blends in a little bit. My friends and family, they go like, "On your vacation, are we going to go at furniture stores again?" I'm like, "Yes, you bet we will. This is what we do in Amsterdam. This is what we do in Valencia. Why not?"

Shaun: Yes. "You're going to haggle. You're going to experience the local markets."

Sébastien: "This is fun."

Shaun: I love that.

Sébastien: "We're going to go do drifting in Paris. Yes, we will. That's fun. Yes, we will. Maybe I can find a print that would be inspiring. Is there a real thing about tapestry coming back or needlepoint as an accent for textiles?" Yes, there's a big clipboard of information, and trying to make sense of it. You want a rounded assortment in each of the subcategories that you do to make sure that you have a balanced look and a balance. You want to push it to be exciting and fresh and new, but not push it too far that it's unrelatable for people. You want to make sure that there's a relationship with the product. I think it's a very fine balance there.

Shaun: I would imagine when you have a market like Montreal, very progressive, very forward-thinking, and then you may have somewhere that maybe isn't quite as bold in choices, does that affect what trends are happening regionally, or is it Urban Barn across the board, this is what we stand for, this is where we're going?

Sébastien: This is a very good question. I think that looking back on this, when social media and even television, for that matter, was not as prevalent in the way people connected with trend and style, I think there was a bit more of a difference geographically within the country. We don't see it as much anymore. A best seller and a customer's favourite article or item or collection is a favorite across the country. That's no denying. I think we see that as well. Is there a certain demand for other product in certain areas? Sometimes it's more due to scale of where the store is located within a trading area.

For example, if you have a store that is an urban store in Toronto versus a suburban store in Toronto, possibly, not always, but the larger-scale furniture might be doing better in the suburban area where the homes could be larger, as opposed to an urban area, where space is at a premium, where people chose to live in an urban space, the amount of space they have to live there. Sometimes, smaller-scale do better in areas. Sometimes we see that as well.

For example, maybe when people live in condominiums, large extension dining table, maybe don't do as well in urban areas. Certainly, they do really well in suburban areas, for example. We also know that everybody needs counter stool, for example. The other thing that we realize is that condo dwellers or urban dwellers, we call them, they might have a smaller space, but they're always going to have a counter or kitchen island or a peninsula to have counter stools. So is the people in the suburbs as well, and people in rural areas.

For example, for us, our counter stool categories is wide and varied and very popular. We do really well, and we are a destination for counter stools because they appeal to all demographic and all type of living as well, for example.

Shaun: Do they all have backs?

Sébastien: Every season, we try to bring some without backs because, visually, there's a look there. They're never as popular as the ones with the backs. People want back support, and they want comfort as well, because I think they use it a lot more than we think. A lot of people are using counter stools to eat, most likely Monday to Friday, because of the lifestyle and everything, and feeding the kids or being single and multitasking at a kitchen island, and things like this. We try to bring some without backs, but they're not always successful.

Shaun: Again, that's the balance that you have to weigh with regards to what our customers want versus what you think looks the best or is best. Let me ask you on that kind of prediction model. What are the top three things that you look for when determining, of all those categories, how something may be trending? What are the top three things you look for?

Sébastien: The first thing is that we look around and we get inspired. That's the first thing we do. Sometimes I go to fabric shows just to look at upholstery fabric. You look at what's trending and things like that. Then you see, how does that relate? How does that fit within, for example, whether it's furniture, decor material, like fabric or wood or wood finishes, or even-- How does that fit within the assortment, and how does that fit within the Urban Barn design aesthetics that we've established or design styles that we have established for ourselves? How does that fit in? How does that relate to the Canadian consumer as well? Is it something that we see them connecting with?

Now with experience, we understand more and more what maybe the Urban Barn customers or the Canadian consumer are looking for and what they connect with as well. We know they like comfort. We know they like texture. We know they like something that is aesthetically pleasing, but they don't want to forfeit the comfort for style.

Shaun: When you talk about you have the three of you, essentially, you have the two founders, you have yourself, and then you have to make some decisions in the upcoming season, and you said you could be looking, what did you say, up to 28 months in advance? You're trending for 27, you're working on early 2026, and so on, all the way down the line. Is that fair to say?

Sébastien: Yes, that's fair to say. Also, to clarify this is that the two founders, one of them totally left the business since. The other one is still a shareholder, but no longer works at Urban Barn. I'm the only one who's still physically active in the business today.

Shaun: Oh, wow.

Sébastien: I'm the only one who's still here active. That being said, I was quite a bit younger than them as well. I'm the only one from the original crew who's still working here at Urban Barn as the--

Shaun: You have a team. You must have a team.

Sébastien: Oh, we have a great team. Yes, we have a great team as well. Yes, of course. My goal is to make sure that everybody's aligned and we're working together in the same direction, and we achieve our deadlines and our goals, and we have enough inventory to support the demand.

Shaun: When you're making these decisions as a team, do you find that there are opportunities to take a bigger risk? Do you find that risk is something that you try to avoid? If you do make a big risk, what are the factors that come into play when you're trying to take a big creative risk?

Sébastien: Well, I like to say that we're going to have to make calculated risk. I know it's always the right answer to say that's the goal. You try to analyze what your decision is, and you try to understand the reason why you would be making such decision as well. We can take more risk. If you think about product purchasing, for example, we can take more risk. We know what category we can take more risk.

For example, we know that accent furniture, people are more inclined to be a bit more playful, whimsical, add more colours, and be a bit more on the edge. The larger core pieces that are more expensive or more of an investment, you want to calculate your risk there as well. This is the kind of decision you make as well. Even when you decide to onboard a new vendor, for example, is this a risk? How do you calculate that risk? You don't, for example, put all your eggs in the new vendor's basket. You give them a chance to prove themselves before you give them a larger piece of the pie within your assortment. That's an example, for example. There's a strategy involved and calculation involved with the risk that you take, whether it's a business decision or it's an assortment or a purchasing decision as well.

Shaun: Right. As you step into your time machine and you go back 20, 30 years, and you think about the risks that people were taking back then, there has to have been some swings and maybe misses, or maybe they were hits then, but now we look back, and we go, "Oh, that was probably a miss. It'd be a miss today." You know what I mean?

Sébastien: Yes, I know. That's true.

Shaun: I'm guilty. I bought rugby pants, and I had frosted tips at one point. Those were swings, but I was hot back then, but now I would never do that.

Sébastien: Yes, exactly. Then, also, as a business, we grew with our customers. We grew with the Canadians that supported us. Certainly, at the beginning, we were looking at where do we fit within the Canadian landscape? Where do we fit as a brand? What is our aesthetic? This was all part of the equation. We did buy things, looking back on this, that I would never buy again at the end of the day.

Shaun: Like what?

Sébastien: For example, we talk about different design aesthetics, and we were buying things that are a bit more glam, I would say, or Hollywood classic, I would say, or Vegas classic. Table lamps and floor lamp with crystals and a bit blingy and things like this. Looking back, it was my Liberace period, I call it.

Shaun: Yes. [laughs]

Sébastien: It was hard to let them go at the beginning because, looking back, we made a lot of money. They were successful. Looking back, it was really outside of what we should have done. It's not because there's only so much you can buy. It's not because you can sell it that it does justice to your brand and to the other product around it as well. The crystal chandelier was good then, but it's not something you would do again. Even looking back, I've got files of all creative directions that I did even 10, 15 years ago, where the colours for summer were really bold, bright teals and bright oranges and bright yellows, and it sold. It did really well. We were really successful. It's not something that people are attracted to today.

Today, the direction is so different. The colours are very soft and organic, nature-inspired. There are suiting palettes. Nothing is bold and everything. We do the same thing with fashion. I think we look back, as you said, like, oh, the fashion choice that we made or people made 15 years ago, and then 20 years ago, you're like, "I think I was hot back then. I'm not sure this is something that I would do today." Don't show this to your kids because they're going to be like, "Aye yai yai yai yai."

Shaun: It does feel like, yes, more earthy, generally speaking, wood, getting back to nature. That feels like that is really trending right now, and it feels good. There's a feeling associated with trends. How do you draw from your own personal emotional connection to things, or how much of it is data-driven?

Sébastien: I think it is data-driven, but also, I think you have to read the times as well. Certainly, without looking back, but a few years ago, there was a big change that forced people to stay at home a lot more. The work remotely, for some people, was very intense for a period of time. It became more of an hybrid situation for some. They rediscovered their homes, and I think that was a big change as well. The way they used their space became very different as well. I think they're starting to own their home in a different way and use their space in a different way.

You can see the difference as well. You can see the shift in the behaviour of what people were looking for, as well, the colours that people were looking for. People were looking for sanctuary. That was clear. People are looking for something that is comforting, and that change very quickly. Also, inflation. We saw this inflation going up very quickly as well, where maybe going out for dinner, a group of six friends, are you better off having people at home for a tenth of the price, really, and as much fun, if not more, because it's a bit more of a relaxed atmosphere? I think that changed a lot.

The emphasis on your home and how you create a space, and now, do you make this inviting not only for yourself, not only for your family, or your spouse, or yourself, if you're single, for me, but how do you make it inviting for others as well and make them feel welcome? I think that changed very quickly as well, and we've seen that as well. Often, even the bedroom that was often the forgotten room in a space, because people felt like the bedroom, nobody goes in the bedroom, there's no guests in the bedroom, there's no family members in the bedroom. The bedroom became even more of a sanctuary over the years as well, and we've seen a drastic change as well.

Not only in colours and trends and feel, but the purpose of the space, and how we can reappropriate the space as well, became very apparent as well. We've seen this in trend of also home decor, but also in cooking and baking and gardening. Everything is home-related. I think we've seen this as well.

Shaun: When we talk about Canadian, I think about Canada. I've recently repatriated back to Canada. I'm a self-deported, repatriated, born-again, new Canadian. So proud to be back. How does Urban Barn tap into that Canadian mentality and express what it is to be Canadian versus, let's say, a US market, or is there any differentiation there?

Sébastien: I think the first is, really, for us, we realized that even more so today than ever before, acknowledging and sharing with everybody that we are a Canadian brand. For us, on the business aspect of it, for Urban Barn, since day one, we partner with Canadian manufacturers for our upholstery categories. A lot of the product we have in our store, not all of it, clearly, but a lot of it, is made in Canada, and we have it on hand, available to ship right now. We also have them made to order as well, so you can change the fabric and you reconfigure the product. That's a huge part of our business.

It gives a chance, also, to people who come to our stores and go online for us to really customize a piece of furniture that truly maximizes their space, and they can really make it their home as well by saying, like, "No, I'm looking for this color, this texture, this fabric. I've got kids, I've got pets. Oh, I don't have kids, I don't have pets, and things like this. My room is a little funky, so I need to have a sectional, but that kind of shape of sectional." Then she says, "My husband is 6'6", but I'm 5'2", so we need to make sure both bodies are fitting." That's also when we go to--

[laughter]

Shaun: That's so interesting.

Sébastien: It happens all the time. We have to, "How do we make this work for everybody so everybody's happy?" We do made-to-order product as well, and we also have a lot of stock upholstery made in Canada as well. We love these puzzles. We love this idea of, yes, it's great for us.

Shaun: You travel around the world, you see all these different countries that are leading the way. I can think of a few countries when we see furniture design and so on and so forth that seem to be the lead influencers around the world. What do you see as being the lead influencers around the world within Urban Barn? Then also, in a magical world where you can say, "I'm going to lead the Canadian trend around the world." What are the countries that are leading the way? If you could be hired by the Canadian government and say, "Listen, I need you to spread Canada and its design all over the world," what would be the things that you would like to spread all over the world that says, "We are Canada"?

Sébastien: I think the first thing is, where in the world do I get inspired? Do we think that I can get some-- Certainly, I think that the Netherlands and Belgium and France and Germany, I think there's something there as well in the colours and the textile and the material and the wood that I use. Often, I get cues there as well to say, "How can I make this practical for people? How can I make this work for people?"

They might use a lot of linen textiles, for example, for upholstery. Well, a linen sofa is not necessarily the most practical, so I can achieve a look like this by having something that's more practical, because Canadians are more practical, for example. These are the things that I look at. A market, for example, another fun information is that a market that's very similar to Canada in aesthetics is Australia.

It makes sense when you think about it, although it's halfway around the world. Australians are of very similar aesthetics as well, and things like this. What's fun is that their seasons are often than ours. They need their outdoor furniture when we don't, and things like this, but at the same time, they need Christmas product and outdoor furniture at the same time, which is always funny as well.

Shaun: Can you speak to what you would do to-- You're the lead ambassador for Canadian design around the world. Go.

Sébastien: I think I would say, for Urban Barn, our core is contemporary furniture with rustic materials, and where we don't sacrifice style for comfort. I think this is what we do. We offer a suiting color palette. We don't sacrifice comfort. We also want, for people to have a chance, we want to inspire them to create a space that reflects who they are. Then I want them to feel right at home. Our tagline is, right at home. That's our thing.

Shaun: Sébastien, this is amazing. I love all these insights. We've talked a lot about design trends. We've talked about Canadian pride. We've talked about Urban Barn and how they are such an amazing company in Canada, Canadian-owned, Canadian-operated. We're a podcast about REALTORS®. We are the podcast for REALTORS®. There's a lot of parallels here when we talk about trends, when we talk about how to really see what's happening out there. I think someone like you can give some insight into what are the things that even REALTORS® have to look for when considering broad trends, whether it be in specific housing, design within the housing, when you're staging a home.

Talk a little bit about that, like how REALTORS® should think about approaching trends to follow, but also finding the balance between that and staying true to themselves and their customers as a business philosophy.

Sébastien: Well, this is very apropos that you're asking me this question because one of the things that we do here, we do look at listings, property listings in markets. Number one, if we want to go to a new market, we want to say, "What's for sale? What properties are for sale in that market? What's happening in that market?" Scale, size, and everything. We look at that. We also look at resale properties in current markets as well to see what people are needing and what kind of floor plan our people are doing, maybe it's going to give us some insight to what we have to bring into your assortment and things like this.

Also, for me, I think because I'm in the industry of home decor and furniture, I've been really successful in real estate myself. I think it's my sixth or seventh property that I've bought and renovated and resold, and four out of those were sold with the furniture. Not that I was asking, but people did ask, "Can I buy all the furniture and everything?" My agent said, "Well, actually, he's in the furniture industry." This is why maybe it looks like that. It looks so put together, and that a floor plan is done to that matter.

We all know the basic of real estate listings and things like this to make sure that you declutter, you remove all personal belongings, personal pictures, and things like this. That goes without saying. These are the basic points. I think really, be a bit more, especially when business is not always as rosy as it once was, and things like this, and there's some highs and some lows, really working with the client to make sure that the space is really ready, really picture-ready. Sometimes, some minor adjustments would go a long way. I often see furniture placement and space planning on a listing not done to the way it's supposed to be.

Shaun: Talk to me about that. I love that idea of the little things go a long way, but I think some clients, they're not sure. They're like, "I've got to change the entire home because I've lived in it for so long and it needs a full refresh."

Sébastien: It depends where you are, but it depends, also, with the listing, who is this property listed for, and who is it going to attract. For example, I have a friend, and he lives in a condo. Now, he's got two babies. It's too much for two babies. I'm like, "Clearly, if it's too small for you for two babies, you don't want to have any of the baby stuff in that property when you list it because you don't want to sell it to somebody with two babies. You bought this, you were a bachelor, and it was perfect. I think you need to make it look like a bachelor apartment, a bachelor condo, like a stylish place, such a stylish bed, because if you make it look too small for a family, I'm not sure who you're going to sell it to."

Sometimes, even like a larger home, I think sometimes you look at maybe the sofa and the two accent chairs are placed in a certain way because it suits your lifestyle, which is great, and nobody's judging that, but it's not doing the space justice. It's blocking the windows. It's blocking the light. It's blocking the view as you walk in the pathway. Moving the furniture around, replacing the furniture, often adding an area rug to define a space in an open-floor plan makes a huge difference as well because it creates a living room area, a dining area, and a kitchen area, so adding a rug, not buying too small of a rug, this is a big mistake.

Go big, an 8 by 10, follow the rules, 8 by 10, 9 by 12. Don't go with a 5 by 8 because you want to save money; it's not worth it. Then there's rules in place, where should the furniture be on and things like this. I think investing on things like this, like rugs and space planning, goes a long way, even if it's only for photography, for example, because first impression, we know this is it. If you don't get a good first impression online, you're not going to get a viewing. I think these things are important.

In the bedroom, I don't say change the entire bedroom furniture, but you know what goes a very long way? It's cleaning up the bedding, updating the bedding, having something that is lighter, brighter. It goes a long way. Updating the bedding. A rug and bedding are the easiest thing to do to update a space, and there's no elbow grease involved.

Shaun: What is the rule about window treatments?

Sébastien: Often, the home will have roll blinds or shutters and things like this that are already in place. I think often those are sufficient. What I often see people for privacy or for sleeping or for sometimes because of their work schedule, they need to have an extra layer of drapes on top of it. Sometimes, in a smaller room, maybe not in a smaller home, but in a smaller room, it makes a space look very small sometimes. You might need it. You might need it because of your schedule, because you have to go to bed at 7:00 PM throughout the year, and so you need to have blackout drapes, or you need to sleep in, or something like this. You might need them. Is it giving the room the best? That's the question.

The opposite is if you have a larger home, having drapes in a larger space could cozy up the space and add a layer of privacy. I think it's very room-dependent and space-dependent. I see in small rooms and small bedrooms, if you don't really need an extra layer for the listing, I would say remove it. At the same time, if you have a larger space and if you want to make it more cozy because it looks too stark and uninviting, it's going to cozy up the space for sure. That's purely for listing purposes as well.

Shaun: That's what I mean. One of the things that we debated was, we had some cool furniture that did look amazing in pictures. However, it was bold, and our fear was, if I'm a buyer and I'm coming into this space and I'm seeing all this amazing, cool furniture, it's not really my taste, even though they know that the furniture is going to be gone. It's like, how do you balance that out? How flat and neutral do you want everything to be so that they can imagine their own selves in that space, and do the things that they would do, versus making it attractive and cool and hip to trick the brain into thinking, "Dude, I got to have this space, even though this isn't going to be my furniture"?

Sébastien: It is a fine line as well, but sometimes you might have to remove a few pieces, although that might be dear to you, to remove a few pieces to make it more palatable for people, and either replace it with something else or just leave it empty. That's one way to do this. Sometimes you might have to add something. I know it's counterintuitive because I want to sell my home. I'm not going to buy two accent chairs, but you have a space in a home that you could show a purpose for. It might be a good investment for the money you could really make at the end to invest in buying two accent chairs and a side table to give a purpose to that space.

It sounds, and it looks counterintuitive as well, but at the same time, if you look at what the money is at stake, spending, I'm saying, like $1,000, whatever it is, might go a long way as well. It's not like this front chair is thrown away, either. You're going to be able to repurpose it somewhere else when you move. I think sometimes certain things like this, investing money, could sound counterintuitive, but I think it turns out to be often a good investment from my experience and from the experience that I've seen in the marketplace as well.

Shaun: What would you say, then, are the top home decor trends right now?

Sébastien: Right now, people are really focusing on texture. I think we often thought of space planning, of scale of furniture, of aesthetics of furniture, but I think people are putting a lot of emphasis on texture, textures of woods, of fabrics, of leathers, of metals. I think texture is a big thing. I think nature-inspired colour palettes are very on trend right now. They're very suiting, so a lot of beige, a lot of creams, and so on and so forth. Even cognac for leather are really popular as well right now.

In accent colours, also nature-inspired. The greens and the blues are still doing well. They've been doing well for quite a few seasons. It's pretty much nature, the ocean, and the sky.

It's really easy, actually, with a green accent chair or a green accent, and you pop a plant in the corner, and you have a focal point very easily. Then a new colour that's it's been awakened for a few season now, it's more like the oranges and the burnt orange and terracotta colours also are doing well as well. Again, this is all nature and very earthy and very nature-inspired as well. It's a big thing for us.

Then, in wood tones, I think right now in 2026, we're seeing a shift in the wood tones a little bit as well. A lot of the wood tones, for the past few years, were really light, so very light wood tones, a bit almost like a gray wash or white wash to it, or sun bleach. Now it's a bit warmer. It's more like through wood tones are warming up as well, and things like this.

Shaun: The temperature it's warming up generally.

Sébastien: It's warming up.

Shaun: There was that repurposed wood, the barn door, the barn wood furniture, that whole thing. That may be softening a little bit now, is what you're saying?

Sébastien: Yes, we're seeing that. As far as aesthetics, we're seeing a bit of a revival in something called-- we call it new classics. Furniture that is in what we call case goods in the industry, which is hardwood furniture. In bedroom, dining, and living room, which new classics, a bit more-- we saw it with the bobbin design on the legs and the cone legs, and things like this. We've seen a bit more ornate, but still contemporary modern. We've seen this new classic being revived over the past two seasons-

Shaun: That's cool.

Sébastien: -and it's still going forward as well.

Shaun: Are designers now designing in that trend, or are there a lot of repurposed older pieces that are coming to the fore again, or both?

Sébastien: This is exactly how it started. It started with people doing thrifting or using their grandparents' furniture and things like this, and incorporating this into our heirloom pieces, incorporating this to their space. That's how it started. Now, new furniture is being designed following that aesthetic and that trend as well. It was inspired by vintage pieces being introduced to homes, or being kept as well, just old secretaries and things like that.

Shaun: All on that tip, there's homeowners, there's designers, but then when you're talking directly to REALTORS®, what do you think-- You've dealt with a lot of REALTORS® in your life. From a design perspective and bringing your expertise, what is the biggest and most important piece of advice that you could give to REALTORS® when dealing with clients, new listings, et cetera?

Sébastien: I think they really need to focus on first impression. We know it's a delicate conversation between the client and the REALTORS® to make sure that the place is picture-ready and viewing-ready. It's very delicate. It's less delicate if you have a long-lasting relationship with a client, certainly, but certainly with new clients, it's delicate because you don't want to offend people, and you want to make them understand that you're not judging their space. You're trying to make it look as picture-ready as possible to maximize the sales potential because there's nothing better. First impressions are most important now, especially now with social media and listings and the way it's done because people want to travel.

I think this is a really big thing as well, and making them understand that they might have to invest a bit of time and money, and by adding pieces in order to really maximize their sales potential and their opportunity as well. I think this is always a fine line, and it's always a delicate conversation, but I think you're doing everybody justice, and I think at the end of the day, they will thank you for the way it's going to be presented and the way it's going to be ideally shown as well.

Shaun: Amazing. I cannot think of a better way to end this conversation with that wonderful piece of advice for our REALTORS® who are watching this today. You know so much on so many fronts, from a design perspective, from a purchasing perspective, from a homeowner and flipper and buyer and seller yourself. This has been an amazing, fascinating conversation, Sébastien. Thank you so much for joining us today on REAL TIME. I hope the conversation was enjoyable for you as well.

Sébastien: It was great talking to you. It was perfect. It was a lot of fun, so I appreciate it so much.

Shaun: Awesome. Go Urban Barn. Shop Canadian.

Sébastien: Awesome. Thank you very much.

Shaun: Thank you, Sébastien.

Sébastien: Thank you.

Shaun: Big thank you to Sébastien Fauteux today for hanging out with us, Creative Director for the Urban Barn, Canadian-owned, Canadian-operated. I love hearing stories about that. The guy is a master trend forecaster, which is wild when most of us spend most of the time thinking about how do we just keep up. I learned a lot today. When it comes to REALTORS®, I find it very interesting to think about things, not only to react to trends that are happening in the marketplace, but also to analyze, to anticipate, to interpret, and then guide your clients through all of these ever-changing waters.

Thank you to Sébastien for our great conversation. Of course, if you like today's episode, go subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. Today's episode of REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. We'll see you all next time on REAL TIME. My name is Shaun Majumder. Peace.