The REALTORS Care® moniker helps highlight the charitable efforts of REALTORS® across Canada. Since 2007, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) has celebrated the remarkable contributions REALTORS® all across the country have made to a variety of causes close to their hearts..

On this episode of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Cindi Loforti Lepp and Ken Hammer, two REALTORS® nominated for the Canadian REALTORS Care® Award 2024 for their own incredible community impact. This is a feel-good conversation - listen in and be prepared to be inspired!

Transcript

Erin Davis: REALTORS Care®. You care about your clients, your business, and most importantly, your community. Since 2007, the Canadian Real Estate Association has been growing the national REALTORS Care® program to celebrate charitable achievements, advocacy, fundraising, and inspirational stories of REALTORS® using their collective impact to improve the world around them. I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: Today, we are joined by two nominees for the 2024 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award who have been beacons of hope in their communities, Ken Hammer and Cindi Loforti Lepp. They're here with us to share their inspiring journeys. Welcome to both of you and we're going to let you both tell us more about yourselves. We're going to start with you, Ken.

Ken Hammer: Well, thanks Erin and hi, Cindi. First of all-

Cindi Loforti Lepp: Hi, good to see you again, Ken.

Ken: -it's great to be a part of this. I think it's really important. I'll give you a brief background. I've been an academic for 33 years. I've also been a practitioner or an entrepreneur for the same amount of time, so I've always practiced as well as teaching. Became a REALTOR® in about eight and a half years ago. Proud to be a REALTOR® with the Scott Parker team and with RE/MAX in Nanaimo. Happy to be a part of this conversation.

Erin: We're glad to have you here, Ken. Tell us, what did you teach? Because if it's grammar, we're going to be really, really careful.

Ken: Not grammar. That was probably one of my weaker areas, although it did improve. My field of expertise was called Recreation Administration and Tourism Management. Within that, a lot of my areas of interest were in the entrepreneurial realm. I taught an entrepreneurship course. I taught marketing. I taught leadership. It had a business kind of sense to it. It really fit with my entrepreneurial needs as well as my teaching needs.

Erin: Wonderful. Okay, Cindi, what about you?

Cindi: I've been a REALTOR® for a little over two and a half years. I've come late to the game compared to somebody like Ken. I've been involved with various not-for-profit organizations in our community for decades and very much enjoy it. I have been involved with Habitat for Humanity, the YWCA, Pathstone Children's Mental Health, and Youth Without Secure Housing. I've had a lot of experience with being on boards and just dealing with those organizations and have enjoyed it immensely.

Erin: Good. What did it mean to you to be nominated for the 2024 REALTORS Care® Award? We'll start with you, Cindi.

Cindi: Well, first and foremost, I was very surprised. I just say, shout out to CREA for even coming up with this concept. I think it's so incredibly important that we highlight REALTORS® that are giving back to their community. I think it's one occupation where you see that constantly, where REALTORS®, they have big hearts and are continually giving back to their community, being involved in various organizations and charities. I was very honored, really was, like I said, very surprised, but felt very privileged to be included in the Care Award.

Erin: How'd you find out about it?

Cindi: I got a phone call, and I think it was Allison. Allison called me and said, "This is what's going on. You've been nominated and you've become one of the finalists." It was absolutely thrilling. We had an amazing conversation. It was YWCA who actually nominated me and put a lot of time and effort into writing the review on what I had done in the community. Very thankful to them. Then excited to be involved in the filming and highlighting the charities and the organizations I've been involved with over the years. It was a wonderful experience.

Erin: Oh, that's great. Good to hear. How about you, Ken? What did it mean for you to be nominated for the REALTORS Care® Award for 2024?

Ken: Again, like Cindi, it's pretty exciting and honorable. I give my team a lot of credit for that, though. It started with our local brokerage nomination for-- we have in our VIREB, Vancouver Island Real Estate Board, REALTORS Care® Award. I was shocked to get a message from my managing broker that they had nominated me. They didn't tell me, so quite a surprise, which was neat.

Then the CREA Care Award, I hadn't known that they'd put my name forward to that as well. A bit of a surprise, but just like Cindi, I think it's an honor for not only my team in brokerage, but also the organizations we work with. To me, I saw that as a great opportunity. Now I can share some of the great work the community organizations are doing with a broader audience. That was the most exciting part for me.

Erin: How did you first get involved with the causes that you support today? You've both mentioned so many of them already. Why were they so important? We'll start with you, Cindi.

Cindi: I come from a family where they've always given back in the community. I think I just followed their lead and went about finding organizations that would be the best fit for myself and started with Youth Without Secure Housing, that's basically homeless youth, and worked with them. That snowballed into so many other organizations because once you get involved in that venue, you start to meet so many people, have great stories, and you hear about other causes. You're invited. You're invited to serve on boards. You're invited to help-out with various projects.

I got involved with a regional group that was hand-pointed, that was for homeless youth and ended up serving alongside of wonderful people like Elizabeth Zimmerman, who is the executive director of the YWCA locally, and ended up serving on the board after getting to know her, and then got involved with the YW. I'm sure Ken would agree with me. When you get involved in those venues in our community, it just opens-up the door to you for so many other experiences that are so rewarding, and you get to know so many fabulous people.

Ken: I grew up in it. I had parents who were involved in the community since I can remember. My dad was a Lion for all his life, honored by being a Lion. That's a service organization. My mother, the same thing. I come from a small community, so they were extremely involved. I didn't know how it unfolded for me, but as the years went by through my early years as an academic, of course, I was involved in professional organizations and giving back to them and being engaged in them.

Again, throughout my life and career, as I started a new business, I went to one of the few people I know in my community I'm in now, Nanaimo, British Columbia. He was my REALTOR®, who happened to be my sister-in-law's cousin. I asked him, I said, "Hey, Dave, I'm having some challenges getting connected in my community. I've got this new business and leadership and management development. What do you recommend? There's so many organizations out there. It could have been BNI. It could have been the Executive Association, can be Toastmasters."

He said, "Ken, if I was you, I'd get involved in Rotary." He said, "Rotary is where the movers and shakers are in the community, and that's where you're going to meet people and doors will open for you." Sure enough, it was true. I wear this little lapel pin here, which is a Rotarian pin. As I started wearing that pin and meeting some of the executives in the community, it gave me instant credibility. They just said, "Oh, Ken, you're a Rotarian. That's great. You're in your community. Got to like that."

I started with Rotary. As Cindi said, once you start with one organization, it just snowballs. That snowball effect through Rotary led me to many, many other organizations that we work with and serve in many different ways. Sometimes it's just taking that first step, getting involved in a little way, and opportunities will just open-up. It's unbelievable.

Cindi: I'm going to jump on that one because I've just been asked to join our local Rotary. Ken and I did it the other way around because I've been involved with many different organizations. Now, that has been a springboard to be involved now with Rotary. Ken, you're saying that you actually got involved with Rotary, which became the springboard to getting involved with so many other organizations.

Ken: Congratulations, Cindi. That's great news. Rotary will provide many more opportunities to serve, and I think that's partly what it's about for us, is just to serve our communities. This year it's actually an interesting theme that Rotary has. Every year they have a different theme. This year the theme of Rotary is called The Magic of Rotary. I've been a Rotarian for pretty much 25 years, and I think the magic of Rotary has worked for me in many, many, different ways. Cindi, I'm excited for you just to see where it takes you because opportunities will present themselves like you can't even imagine. I'd love to tell you about some of those but we're on a different topic.

Cindi: I'm really excited about it so I'm glad you brought it up because just going to several of the meetings I see where their care is for their fellow man and the great things that they've done in the community so I'm really looking forward to jumping in.

Ken: It's a little bit intimidating to jump in and we don't know where to start. I think I would say one of the first steps in engaging in your community and giving back is just to start. When I got into Rotary, I jumped in not too fast but trying to learn about it because still, after 25 years, I'm learning what Rotary is and what they do but jumping in I would say is one of the number one things we can do in terms of serving our communities. Take a step.

Erin: That is absolutely true. We're talking service groups, service clubs. There are myriad service clubs wherever anyone listening or watching lives but we're also talking connection here which is so important. I love how everything weaves together here because, Cindi, here you are a REALTOR® and you've gotten involved in homes, homelessness and Habitat for Humanity. That's been so important in your story as well. Tell us about that.

Cindi: It dovetails, doesn't it, really with being a REALTOR®. I can't say enough good things about Habitat for Humanity, what they do. I just want to say just to be perfectly clear about it, we do not give homes away. The individuals actually have to pay for their homes. They have to do 500 hours of sweat equity so that we are assured that they're going to be able to have the energy and put the effort into taking care of their home whether that's the landscaping or the maintenance of the home itself and then we hold the mortgage for them, and it is based basically on their household income.

What I love about Habitat is that, that household income includes any teenagers that are working so everybody has a part to play. What we see is that families become closer together. We see children's marks go up, self-esteem go up. Habitat for Humanity, I think, has made such a difference in so many people's lives. Here we're so supported by the community. I'm just going to tell a little story if I may.

We had Centennial Homes come to us, local builder Dominic Delilah, and he said, "Listen, I want to build four homes for Habitat and just give you the keys." It was really difficult to wrap our head around because that's never happened before. We said, "Well, what do we have to do? How much do we have to give? Do we have to supply manpower?" He said, "No, I want to build these homes, and I just want to give you the keys."

Of course, we were absolutely thrilled. What Dominic did, and I really hope that this serves as an example and that other people take what he has done and copy it, he went to his employees, and he said, "Look, I want to do this for Habitat. Can you donate your hours when you work on the Habitat homes?" He also went to suppliers and said, "This is what I want to do. How can you assist us?" By doing that he involved so many other people in the community and then at the end he gave us the keys for four homes to serve four families. Just a wonderful example of what one individual can do with serving our community by serving an organization and really sacrificing.

Erin: Tell me what that looked like when those families got those keys, Cindi. Can you picture or describe what it was like for those lives to change before your eyes?

Cindi: When you have the presenting of the keys ceremony at Habitat there is not a dry eye in the entire place because these families speak. You really hear what it means to them and how much it changes their life before they even move into the house. Just to see the ripple effect that happens because you have to understand, some of those individuals who are children have become doctors, dentists, it's just amazing to see how their self-esteem changes, their confidence. They become so much more confident in who they are and what they can accomplish in life. Carl Ryan, who has been so instrumental in Habitat for Humanity in Niagara, he says, "If you don't shed a tear at a key ceremony for Habitat, you'll have to check to make sure you got a pulse."

Erin: Exactly. I'm sure, Ken, you've been part of moments like that as well. It's so incredible to be such a small part of a big change. That's part of what REALTORS Care® is all about as well.

Ken: Yes, I have to agree with you, Erin. Personally, it's very emotional and rewarding, but I think it's beyond that. It's not just for me. It's for the families, as Cindi is talking about. It's for her community. I want to make a connection with what Cindi's saying, because if a REALTOR®'s out there listening and wanting to find a reason to get engaged in their community, I think Cindi has number one, and that she's learning about her community. She's involved with a developer. She's involved with building homes. Hey, we're in real estate. Here Cindi's doing it just out of a love of service and gaining all this professional knowledge. That's a win-win for me.

Erin: Absolutely. It's all about the connections to the community, connections with each other, and connections of the heart. It's really, really heartwarming to hear both of your stories.

Okay. Ken, you've talked about Rotary, you've talked about myriad other things that you support. What drew you to these causes? You've talked also about the snowball effect. Let's expand on that a little bit, because it doesn't just happen all at once, does it? You don't just magically don the pin and all the doors open.

Ken: No.

Erin: Tell us a little bit more about that, would you?

Ken: Well, again, I think it is a snowball effect. I get introduced to different organizations in the community. I hear about their various needs. I try to move towards what interests me and where I'm moving towards, for example, children, youth, very, very important for all of us. That's something within me that I want to support. A good example of that is an organization called Nanaimo Youth Services Association. What they do is provide educational job readiness training, jobs, and housing for youth that are struggling. Youth homelessness is a big issue in our community.

Again, if anybody's interested in getting involved, you don't have to join an organization, you don't have to be a board member, you can simply participate in one of their events. A good example is, for a couple of years, myself and my team have gotten involved in their Roughing It event, which is basically going out and staying and sleeping on cardboard, on concrete, experience what it means to be homeless.

Anybody can do one little thing, just participate in one fundraising event. That is very, very useful. Again, my interest, as well, is just I see my community needs and I connect them, and all of a sudden, I'm engaged or involved in some way.

Erin: I think it's important, too, what you're saying, Ken, and Cindi, I'm sure you'll be able to echo this, that you can try on different organizations.

Cindi: That's right.

Erin: One size doesn't fit all. The meeting time may not really be for your schedule or for your life. If you just go and volunteer and show up at one of these events and say, "Yes, I really like these people, I like what they're doing," it becomes so much more fun. Honestly, volunteering should be something that feels easy to do that it doesn't feel like something that's an obligation. It's a joy. I hear you agreeing with this, Cindi.

Cindi: Yes, absolutely. I want to just, too, focus on REALTORS® and how they help. I look at our own brokerage, McGarr and Revel. I just think of all of the activities that these REALTORS® do to benefit the community, whether it's community care or Humane Society. The Revel Gala raises a lot of money each year and they donated it this year to the Ronald McDonald House. REALTORS® seem to be a group that just really understand the need to give back to our community. The homeless component, like I said earlier, just seems to dovetail so well. It's encouraging to be in Ontario and hear Ken, who's in BC, share very similar stories to mine or experiences that really mirror my experience when it comes to REALTORS® giving back and being involved in the community. That, for me, is incredibly encouraging.

Ken: I agree with what Cindi's saying in terms of, "It's just not me." I think a lot of the public don't know how REALTORS® are caring in their community. I think this award is a way to let the public know. When I received my award, of course, it was publicized in the local paper and I had people reaching out to me saying, "Hey, congratulations, Ken, that's neat." I'm not the only REALTOR®. There's many opportunities for those REALTORS® that are looking to get involved in the community.

As Erin, you said earlier on, it's not one size fits all, you just try it out, see what sticks with you. I've mentioned that you can just participate in a fundraising event, you can go to one of their annual general meetings, you can have a coffee with the CEO of the organization and just learn about them. Of course, you can always give money, don't get me wrong, everybody needs a check. There's many other ways to get engaged as we're talking about here today.

Cindi: I'm just going to jump in here. I always say, we've got all kinds of qualities that we can give. I always say either you can give your time, your treasures, or your talent. All of them mean something. There's some people who can give money because they don't have time. They probably have a lot of talents, but they'd rather give money. Then there's other individuals who really just want to give their time and that works for them.

I'm just going to say, to all of the board members who serve and volunteer on boards, who give their time, and I'm sure talents are in there too. You have to find out what works best for you. What is it that you want to give, and that you feel you're most fulfilled in giving? Ken, you said when we talked earlier, that you get fulfilled by giving. Scientifically, it's been shown to take your stress levels down, make you a happier person. Those of us who give to the community, we're winning across the board.

Ken: Nicely said, Cindi, because if you go into some of the theories, and you can look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you can look at a lot of the other models of happiness, guess what's at the top? It's service. Providing service is one of those higher level expressions of happiness, higher level expressions of being human. I get more than I give, there's no question. By giving a little bit, I gain big time. If you're wondering about getting involved, you'll benefit in terms of quality of life, your community benefits. It's a win-win.

Erin: It is. As a matter of fact, in our previous episode to this, on our podcast, on REAL TIME, Melissa Leung talked about this, that there was an experiment at UBC, where they gave everybody something like $10,000. The ones who gave it actually felt more happiness, more joy, and it sustained them longer too. It all ties in just so beautifully.

Now, you've both been involved in different ways in youth, Ken, you through Rotary, you as well, Cindi, finding homes, especially for the homeless, and for women, for shelters, and that sort of thing. You call it multiplying leaders. Let's expand on that a bit and looking toward tomorrow's community leaders to, one day, if not fill your shoes and walk alongside you, Cindi.

Cindi: I think one of the best acts any of us can do is to mentor others to care and have compassion for our fellow man. It's like, that should be the school, the school of love and care and compassion. You can encourage other people to do their part and to give of themself. It doesn't have to be big. It can be very small. If all of us did that in our community, just imagine the community and societies we would live in. It would be extraordinary. There's so many individuals that do mentor people and lead as examples, and we just need to pay attention and be willing to give of ourselves so that we can be a reflection of them and perhaps then be a mentor and an example for other people in our community or people in our circles.

Erin: How about you, Ken? Are you seeing more youth getting involved in service clubs and that sort of thing? Are you planting the seeds for a tree under which whose shade you never hope to sit, but that one day they too will be the tree?

Ken: It's so important and I do see it happening maybe not as much as it can or should. I'm involved in a couple of organizations that are planting seeds. One's the Child Development Center here in Nanaimo. I've been working with them in a variety of capacities for a number of years and they provide opportunities for youth that are struggling with some disability of some kind, and helping level the playing field for them and their families.

In Rotary, of course, there's many youth programs. We have one where we train youth leaders in age 12 to 17. Those are the kids that are going to come up and lead others. In Rotary, we have Rotaract, which is a university age Rotary club. They're developing themselves and serving their communities in many different ways. We do need to be building the future here today, and it's through youth. There's no question.

Another way I would say is quite a few years ago, we built a community leadership program. Right now it's called Leadership Vancouver Island. That's a nine-month program where you apply to be part of this program, you're learning to be a leader within your community, whether it's your business or local organization. The idea is that you will take your leadership then and multiply your organization by being more effective.

When we first started the program, we were saying, "Well, what's better? Write a check to the organization for maybe buying some equipment or training one of their staff members to be able to go out and get 10 checks for 10 pieces of equipment?" That idea of building for the future is so important here.

Cindi: I love that answer, Ken. I'm going to talk a little bit about changing lives because you did refer to that. I look at organizations like the YWCA where they take women and children and they mentor them, they give them life skills programs where their lives are changed. Personally, and I know, Ken, you said the same thing, I'm more about organizations where you give a hand-up, not so much a handout, although I feel that organizations that give a handout are very, very important in our community and needed and definitely serve a very real and necessary purpose.

The YWCA, because they have so many life skill programs and because they end up changing lives of women and children, I get so excited about what they do. It's about multiplying what you're doing, but it's about changing the lives of other people in your community where they end up being on their own, they don't need as much assistance as they were getting and feeling just great about themselves. Of course, children reflect mothers. I always say healthy mothers raise healthy children. If we want healthy children, let's help our mothers be healthy.

Erin: Agreed. To both of you, what value do you see in bringing one of your charitable initiatives under the REALTORS Care® umbrella to help bring in resources from your board association and CREA? We'll start with you, Ken.

Ken: Well, that's a great question because I think it's the most important thing we're doing here with that award, is being able to recognize some of these organizations that I'm a small part of, but they're a big part of the community. Even just the awareness that they get through the award is very important. In some cases, I think I haven't maximized that awareness that they've received through this award, and I'd like to find ways to be able to do it. My local award, I did receive a small amount of funds that I could give to one of my charities, which is a great thing to do. I think they get awareness, and I think REALTORS® get more awareness, and we win by this because what the public sees is REALTORS® that do care about their community. It isn't about just selling a home. We care about our community. I think that, Erin, is maybe the most important thing about the award, is that community organizations are recognized for the work they do.

Let me just finish up by saying, when I ask around, sometimes it feels overwhelming, we see homelessness. We feel families that are struggling. We see an addiction problem. We just put our hands up in the air and go, "Oh my goodness, what can I do?" I asked that question, one of the fellows I met through, again, my connection with the Nanaimo Youth Services Association, well, actually it was through Rotary. He was a keynote speaker. I hate to bring Rotary up all the time.

His name was Joe Roberts, and he goes by the moniker Skid Row CEO. He's got a very compelling story about his growing up and not having that love and care and not having a community that supported him. He ended up on East Vancouver. He's from Ontario. He had a growing up story that was like all of us, and that's, things are going well, and then one little thing changed. His father passed away. From that, he got involved in some abusive situations with his mother's boyfriend or something like that.

I asked him, "Joe, what can we do? What can I do? I'm just overwhelmed with these issues, social issues." He said, "Ken, the one thing we can do is get involved in the organizations that are doing the work." That has stayed with me. I think, Cindi, you're doing it.

If we'd encourage more REALTORS® to think that way, you don't have to solve homelessness, but take part in an event every year. February, it's called Coldest Night of the Year. Locally, it's run by our central Vancouver Island Crisis Care Society. They run this every year. My team goes out now every year. It's just participating in that, raising a little bit of funds, but raising awareness amongst the community that, "Hey, there's some challenges in our community. If we could just all come out, spend $100 or whatever you can raise, you're going to make a difference." Again, one little step.

Cindi: Well said. Well said, Ken. For REALTORS®, I really believe that they get involved in the community because they care about people. To choose the career of a REALTOR® is usually because you care about others, and then it reflects to helping in the community. That was one of, certainly, the points of getting this award, was that we were able to film Habitat for Humanity and the YWCA, talk about Pathstones and highlight those wonderful organizations in my personal community where people are making a difference and are just giving of themselves and changing the lives of others. Out of the cold, very active here in our community too. What a great suggestion, Ken.

Erin: So many good ideas, so many great suggestions, but there's got to be somebody who's listening or watching right now who says, "How do I fit this into my crazy busy life? I don't have time to commit hours and hours a week." I always remember a sign in a gym I saw that said, "You always have time for the things you put first." What is your example? What's your suggestion to anybody who's sitting on the fence going, "Oh, I don't know if I'm ready to commit to all of this"? What do you say, Ken?

Ken: I say, Erin, you had a good answer. If anybody's listening, and they say, "Well, I don't have the time, I'm too busy," I get a little irritated when people tell me that because you nailed it in terms of, you can fit whatever you need to fit in, in your world.

By giving a little bit, it's not extra. It is not extra. In my own life, I am engaged, involved in the community. I'm an active REALTOR®. It's just part of who I am, and it could be part of who you are. It's not a big step. It is really just maybe an hour a month, for goodness sakes, or participate in one event. Not only is it just good for your own soul, but it's good for business. We haven't even really talked about that.

Cindi has so many neat contacts in her community just by her volunteer work. I think half of my business comes from my community connections. If you're out there saying, "Well, I can't do it, I can't do it, because I'm so busy with my clients," well, you're missing out. You're missing out big time. This whole notion of caring about your community is important for you personally, but it's important for your business, and most importantly, it's important for the community, because if we don't have a healthy community, who's going to want to live here? Who's going to want to buy the houses?

Erin: Okay. Cindi, what about you? What do you say?

Cindi: I say that busy people get things done. We need you. If you're busy, we really need you because you'll probably make such an impact. Just start out with baby steps. Once you find out how absolutely fulfilling it is, I'm sure that you will end up jumping in with both feet. It's that whole beginning stage. Just, start out slowly, and you'll get sucked into the vortex, just like Ken and I did.

Erin: It's a good vortex. It's a great vortex.

Cindi: It's a great vortex.

Erin: Wonderful. I can think of no better way, no better note on which to wrap this up today than with that message of joy and hope, giving and volunteering and just, baby steps. That's all it takes.

Cindi: Baby steps.

Erin: Absolutely. Thank you both so much for being part of this conversation. Congratulations to you both. May the next year bring even greater things for you, for us all. Thank you.

Cindi: Thank you, Erin. Ken, what a pleasure to get to know you.

Ken: You too, Cindi. Thanks, Erin.

Cindi: When I'm in Vancouver Island, I'm looking you up just so you know.

Ken: Sounds good.

Cindi: We're going to have lunch.

Ken: Okay. Sounds good. We can compare notes.

Erin: He's in Nanaimo. I'm in Victoria. You've got lunch either place, Cindi.

Cindi: I'll look you up, too, Erin.

Erin: Okay, hon.

Cindi: I'm in Niagara Lake, so listen.

Erin: Oh, man.

Cindi: Come see me.

Erin: Yes, right after the Shaw Festival. Promise.

Cindi: Okay, good. Sounds good. A pleasure. Thank you so much.

Ken: Thanks, Erin.

Erin: Thank you. Wow, it's hard not to be motivated after a conversation like that. If you're looking to get involved, just ask somebody like Cindi or Ken in your community or reach out to your local board or association to find out if they're organizing a REALTORS Care® Day near you. With that, we are wrapping up REAL TIME for 2024.

REAL TIME is a production of Alphabet® Creative with technical support from Rob Whitehead, from me, Erin Davis, and from the bottom of my heart, from all of us, thank you for another great year full of incredible guests and fascinating discussions. There is so much more to come in 2025, so we hope you'll stay tuned for what's next. In the meantime, if you're just discovering our show, yay, take a listen to some of our past episodes.

Finally, to you, our listener and viewer, our deepest gratitude and wishes for all the best in the new year.

When was the last time you talked in depth about your money? Research shows talking about finances can build financial confidence, and lead to better financial outcomes. But you need to know where to start.

On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast we’re joined by Melissa Leong, best-selling author and resident money expert on the daytime talk show, The Social, to dive deeper into the connection between money and happiness, how we use emotion over logic when it comes to financial decision making, some of the most common mistakes made by self-employed individuals, and how being more financially aware can help REALTORS® in their businesses.

Transcript

Erin Davis: What if I told you money can buy happiness, but maybe not in the way you expect? Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: Today we're joined by Melissa Leong, bestselling author and resident money expert on the daytime talk show, The Social, to talk about how financial awareness can be the key to a happy life. Melissa, welcome. It's so good to have you here today. Thank you for joining us.

Melissa Leong: Thank you so much for having me.

Erin: I think it's probably safe to say that money is a taboo topic to a lot of people, and we don't talk about it enough. There is a financial awareness that seems somehow to be missing. Can you walk us through financial awareness and how that relates to financial literacy?

Melissa: Most people focus on financial literacy as this, "Oh, we need to have our children learn more about it in school, and we need to make sure that more people are empowered with the knowledge of how to manage their money and make better decisions because they'll have the facts." I think that's important. I am a financial literacy champion, so absolutely I think that's important. I love that you talked about financial awareness because just because you know something, it doesn't mean you always do what you know.

Why I love to also talk about financial awareness as a sister to financial literacy is yes, we can know everything there is to know about personal finance. That doesn't mean we're going to always make the right decisions when it comes to, financial empowerment and structuring our money in a way that best gives us the opportunities and the life that we want to live. It's two things to keep in your back pocket.

Erin: Okay, so let's dig into that a little bit. Why don't we do things like save, for example, even when we know that it's right? We have so much cognitive dissonance in our lives and so many other places that could be 17 podcasts. Let's talk about this in this episode and why don't we do what's right, like save?

Melissa: This topic could fill volumes. There are many incredible, incredibly smart individuals who are devoting their lives to neuroeconomics or behavioral economics, which is just the study of why we do what we do when it comes to money. I would love just to highlight maybe quickly three of them. One of the three things, some things that what causes us to behave strangely when it comes to money because we're not always rational. We're human beings and there are wonderful quirks to us.

One of the things is that we do not operate well under stress. There's a part of our brain that regulates the long-term repercussions of our actions, which you need when figuring out money decisions. That goes offline when you are stressed, which is fascinating because as you know, money is a stressful topic for many, many people. It's the top thing that we stress about. It's what causes people to lose sleep at night, according to many surveys year after year. It's the top predictor of strife and conflict and separation in relationships.

You add a stressful topic, you have a situation where your brain is focusing on the present versus the future, which is called present bias. You are having your willpower affected and your impulse control affected. Then you're making some interesting money decisions that may be out of character for you when it comes to your wallet, your portfolio, your investment choices, your real estate choices, whatever it is, which just leads to more stress.

You can see, Erin, how you're in this vortex. You're trapped in this cycle. We use money to alleviate pain because it's just a tool. Many people use money to alleviate stress and boredom and anxiety and insecurity and inadequacy. You get this dopamine release when you use money, when you spend money, and that temporarily does improve your mood, but it is temporary. You have this chasing of this feeling with money, which can lead to a lot of stress. That's one thing.

We often say, "Okay, well, you need more knowledge there. You need a budget." You need all these things. Actually, sometimes what you need is a stress reliever. You need a moment or an outlet. If you know that on the way home, you're going to be making some big decisions when it comes to some sort of financial deal, you go for a walk first so that you are dealing with the cortisol component, the regulation component, as well as the money component. That's just one. Very quickly, another one is we're very optimistic. We're very optimistic. People think, no, I know Debbie Downers.

Human beings, the majority of, us think that we're above average drivers. My mother-in-law thinks she's the best driver in the world. She thinks that everyone's waving at her with just one finger. We have a hard time imagining scenarios where things are not going to work out for us. That can make it really hard to plan for the future or have plan Bs or choose the right investment or home or something because you are disconnected from your future self because you're thinking positively. That's the third.

We have a disconnect when it comes to our future selves. There's this fabulous, I say fabulous. It's actually gross, this fabulous experiment that involves people drinking a cup of soy sauce and ketchup. People think, "Ew, right? I'm not drinking that. That's so gross."

Erin: No.

Melissa: My future self will drink it. A stranger and my future self will drink it because you are disconnected from that future self. Imagine that you're making some long-term plans. Studies show that you can actually get people to save more money if they see an age rendering of themselves.

Erin: Okay. Yes. I need to delve into that. Let's say there's an app and we know there are probably a hundred of them out there that will show you what you're going to look like in 20 years, although why anybody would-- Anyway.

Melissa: To save more money, according to research.

Erin: Okay. Explain that to me. Explain that to us all.

Melissa: According to neuroscience, your prefrontal cortex has less activity when you think of your future self versus your present self, which makes it very difficult to make long-term plans and to project out into 10, 20 years from now what your life is going to be like, what you want your goals to be even five years from now. It doesn't have to be looking at a photo of yourself through some sort of app, Erin, if you prefer not to, but it can also just be, say you're working with a client, and you want them to think about the future or make an investment for the future. You might talk to them about, okay, well, what do you envision your day-to-day or your life or what do you envision for yourself say five years from now and really spend time, just connecting with that part of yourself, that helps you make decisions in service of future you as well as balancing the needs of the immediate.

Erin: Okay. Going back to the point about optimism, which I find fascinating, if the current situation is unstable, whether in your life or your country or the world or whatever, whether it's small picture, big picture, how does that affect our decision-making and that optimism? Are you able to delve into that just a bit? I'm really curious about that, Melissa.

Melissa: I think sometimes when hard things befall us, we do get stuck in this, "Okay, well, it's always going to be like this," because right now is what you can imagine. It's a leap to try to imagine an alternate reality for yourself. Yes, absolutely. If you are in a difficult financial situation, the longer you stay in that situation, studies have shown that it is harder to get back onto stable ground. That being said, the research supports that as a whole, human beings tend to be more optimistic.

They'll find a way to justify something. They will find a way to tell themselves a good story. For example, you use the example of something difficult has happened or something tough has happened in the world. Your brain will reach for the good. For example, say you make a purchase and you regret it, your brain will actually--

Erin: We've all been there.

Melissa: Your brain will start to tell yourself things like, "Oh, well, I really needed it." Or, "That thing, it wasn't so bad." There are lots of great studies like this. This is a really fascinating report talking about, say, the Beetle who didn't make it into the band and how he says that was the best thing that ever happened to him. Someone dealt with something difficult, and we do, we find a way, we find the bright side.

As someone who works with the public when it comes to making big financial decisions, life decisions, I think a lot of wealth professionals have this wonderful and big responsibility to walk a tightrope when it comes to understanding and honoring someone's optimism, but being that voice where you are saying, yes, but on the other side of this coin, you also need a healthy dose of fear and paranoia because you have to understand that while optimism is the driver of moneymaking, you think I'm going to buy this house, it's going to be great. Everything's going to work out.

On the flip side, you also understand some of those decisions, some of that luck that you've had, some of that money that you've made is due to life circumstances and good luck, and you never know when that might change. To also make decisions and have a plan for the future that protects your future happiness.

Erin: I'm feeling better just listening to you already, Melissa. Of course, we can read Melissa's work as well, because you wrote a book about the connection between money and happiness. I would just love to explore that a little bit more with you now. What is the connection there? How can better financial awareness lead to a happier life?

Melissa: Oh, my goodness. I have a secret for you. Actually, it's not a secret, because I wrote a book about it. You can buy happiness, but there's nuance. You have to spend it and manage it in a certain way, which is why I ended up with this entire book about it. Because you asked me at the top, what is the connection? There are thousands upon thousands of pages of research that try to explore this. The most fascinating one that I really like from 2020 is a mystery experiment. Researchers, including two at the University of British Columbia, asked individuals around the world to sign up for this mystery experiment. Would you do that? Just, you have no idea what's going to happen?

Erin: I think I would because of my optimistic streak.

Melissa: That's right. That's right.

Erin: Yes. Okay. I'm in.

Melissa: I would too. You know what, Erin, we would be rewarded because turns out those 200 people got $10,000 to spend. There was a catch.

Erin: Oh. Let's go shopping. Let's do it.

Melissa: There was a catch. Wait, wait. There was a catch.

Erin: I knew there would be.

Melissa: You could spend it shopping on anything you wanted. You could just spend it, but you had to spend all of it in three months, every last cent.

Erin: No problem. Go on.

Melissa: The question was, would these people be happier than a control group who did not get $10,000 to spend in three months? What do you think?

Erin: Oh, I don't know. I'd get so much written about it. The stories would be wonderful.

Melissa: Absolutely. They were happier. They were happier after three months.

Erin: Good. I hope so.

Melissa: What's fascinating is there's all this nuance. Some of it is, for example, if they already had, the more money they had to begin with, the less happy that money made them.

Erin: That makes sense.

Melissa: Also interesting is how they spent that money determined what made them most happy, which we can also talk about later. I wanted to emphasize that this study did not follow these individuals beyond, say, a few months after this spending spree. There is some suspicion. There's some thought that the happiness maybe wouldn't last because of this thing called hedonic adaptation, which means that you just return to a baseline of happiness no matter what happens. There's a study of lottery winners versus paraplegic and quadriplegic individuals who had become that way after some sort of accident.

They found that their levels of happiness returned to a baseline after this, whatever incident they endured. As well as the people who were survivors, they enjoyed the little things in life more than the lottery winners. Things like hearing a joke, spending time with friends, reading a magazine. There is a lot of discussion that needs to happen. We always say, well, how much money do you think that I need to be optimally happy? Researchers have tried to give you this answer.

A 2018 Purdue University study found that the optimal number for life satisfaction is $95,000 US pre-tax per single-family household. Once you make that, you should be satisfied with life. If you make between 60 and $75,000, that on average is the sweet spot for just feeling happy day to day. Hopefully, you guys are all happy. Everyone's happy right now because we're all together and listening to this great information. What was interesting, Erin, is that more money above these thresholds, once your basic needs are met, is actually associated with a decrease in happiness.

Erin: Is it more money, more problems?

Melissa:

Erin: What is it?

Melissa: There are a lot of hypotheses about why that would be, and it all makes sense. Maybe you are working more. Maybe you've taken on a huge client load. Maybe you are spending less time with family and friends, less time in the nature. You are acquiring more material goods, or you are competing more with other people, say, I don't know, online perhaps. That all leads to a decrease in happiness.

Erin: That $10,000 that you talked about from the UBC study, I'm going to take a guess that charity, or those who didn't just run out and run up a card and then pay it off with the $10,000, that they felt more. There's got to be an element of altruism in there somewhere, Melissa.

Melissa: Yes, actually. Of the $10,000 that they received, people spent an average of $6,400 on other people. Of that $6,400, $2,000 was earmarked for strangers, for donations, which is lovely. That is, according to science, one of the things that will boost your happiness, giving money to other people.

Erin: That is just so inspiring. You absolutely make science sing, Melissa. It's wonderful. Your areas of expertise are behavioral finance and neuroeconomics. Can you share some examples with us of how humans use emotion and intuition over logic when we're making financial decisions?

Melissa: Absolutely. We think that when you are making a financial decision, it's about numbers or projections or profit. Experts will say that the vast majority of your money decisions are not based on logic at all, which is why I'm so happy that we started this conversation with talking about, yes, it's important to know things, but it's also important to understand that you're not going to always do what you know. You are going to be under duress sometimes. For example, I know that after school, when I pick up the boys, they're going to be screaming. They're going to be hungry. I'm going to be stressed out from a long day of work, and I'm not going to be making the best financial decisions.

I'm going to be ordering food on my phone, or I'm just going to say we're going to go out and eat. To outsmart yourself, to know that your brain is not going to always be logical when it comes to your finances, you have to make another plan. You don't need to hack the system. You understand that you can't be trusted sometimes. This is where things like having a strategy, making larger goals, sitting down with wealth professionals, having an automatic deduction of money that goes to your priorities, your emergency fund, your vacation fund, your retirement fund.

Then when you're in a tough position and everybody's yelling and screaming and crying and whining, you say, "Fine, I am going to order all of the food we want right now," and then not stress more about it, creating, again, that pool of stress that just makes everything worse.

Erin: Yes. Instead of just digging into your wallet and throwing out the money, you've got that side pocket in the wallet where you had put away money, a couple of 20s or whatever for the emergency trip to the drive-thru, metaphorically speaking, of course, because we all use cards and stuff, but that makes total sense. They used to call it like a slush fund. Is there a terminology now for that place where the money is that you know you can go to it when you're going to make a rash decision or you won't be your best, Melissa, at that moment. You're being screamed at mom.

Melissa: Absolutely. When we talk about money, we have to understand that language is powerful. You call it a slush fund, but if you want to call that something else, something more empowering, something more fun, I call mine a spending account. When I sit down and go over my budget and calculate my net worth with my husband, which we do quarterly, just to make sure that we're on track financially, that we are growing wealth, and that we are paying down debts, we work out, these are our priorities. These are our goals. This is the money that's going to be siphoned off from our account that will go to those goals.

We are also going to earmark this amount of money per week to spend on whatever we want. The spending account means that, Erin, if I have money in there and you and I want to go for dinner, it is my treat. I'm happy to spend it on other people because I have it.

Erin: Sounds good. Paint a picture of what that looks like, sitting across a desk with your laptops open, or are you at the kitchen table with glasses of wine or coffee or how do you do that in a couple where you're both entrepreneurs?

Melissa: Erin, can we do our budgets together? That sounds lovely with a glass of wine. You know what? You did bring up an excellent topic, which is if you're going to talk about money with anyone, you want to make sure that the timing is right because, again, when your brain is not in an optimal place, you're not going to have the resources to be able to be in that moment. My husband and I, we usually do it after a period of connecting.

Maybe we've gone for a walk or maybe we've done some-- I call it a dream sandwich. You put something nice, you do something nice, you talk about something nice, you sandwich in the hard work and the talk of the sacrifices that need to possibly be made, and then you finish it off with something nice. Maybe like you said, a glass of wine, a toast to, "Hey, we're on track. This is great. We've made some shared goals. This is fantastic."

I think that wealth professionals, REALTORS®, they have this tremendous capacity to use that Bluetooth connection with people. You can help someone co-regulate. If they're making a tough decision, if they're looking at something and they're not sure, "Okay, what are the consequences of me buying this home versus this home?" Rather than continuing to talk, which is what some wealth professionals have done. Sometimes my husband does that to me. What I would prefer is that you are empathetic. Empathy is your superpower.

If you can lead with compassionate curiosity, if you can connect before you correct, if you can signal safety by instead of continuing to talk, take a moment and understand that right now, maybe you don't notice that I am experiencing this flush of hormonal secretions and there's cortisol in my body now. All you notice maybe is a slight fidgeting or a tapping of my foot because my body is trying to self-soothe in that moment or self-regulate or a furrow in my brow. You could pause and connect with me or pause and connect with yourself, which means take a breath.

There are lots of studies that show that when you are working with someone, when you're speaking with someone, if they can regulate themselves and calm themselves, that actually signals to my brain that I can lower my own arousal. Those are the people that I want to work with. Those are the people that I want in my life. There are a lot of surveys, there's research that shows that the people in your life that you work with when it comes to building, having milestones, like buying a home or planning your retirement, these people, the more empathetic they are, the bigger their client base, the more that they have client satisfaction on their side, the more that they have referrals.

I just think that we could all lean more on the humanity when talking about money and when working with people when they are making money decisions.

Erin: Is there a language of empathy that perhaps we don't know, Melissa? I know that when my husband tells me to calm down--

Melissa: Oh my alarm bells.

Erin: Yes, we're going to be on Dateline in a few weeks. You know what I mean. You're sitting across from someone and that Melissa is fidgeting or she's getting a little red or self-soothing and all of these things. What is the right thing to say at that moment that doesn't sound condescending, that doesn't come off as calm down? You know what I mean?

Melissa: Absolutely. I think it's leaning back on what I was talking about, which is you don't always have to say the right thing. Sometimes it's to make sure that you yourself are staying steady in that moment. You're the steady pilot. There's a lot of turbulence around you, but you're going to try to stay calm and stay positive and make sure that your energy is not going to shift the room. You can let this person experience whatever they're experiencing and validate their experience.

If you see that they're having trouble, you can say that. I see that you're struggling with this decision. How best can I help you? How best can I serve you? I am a safe space for you. I've heard of excellent sales research that talks about just even opening up about your own vulnerabilities and talking about your own values. If I were in your shoes, I would also feel stressed. In the past, I've done this, just to create more of that connection. Again, empathy is your superpower, your connection with this person. When you are speaking about money, even your own family members and trying not to judge and trying not to do anything but be, again, a compassionate listener will go a very long way.

Erin: I love that. That's really good. Thank you, Melissa, so much. Listening. Okay. How can we see or hear through the noise? How can we find somebody to trust when everybody on, say, TikTok, for example, is pretending or saying they're a money expert?

Melissa: There is a lot of noise out there. There was a lot of noise even before social media. I will say I personally love that everyone is talking about money. I know, social media, there's a lot of strange information, misinformation, fraudulent information out there. We have our phones constantly. People can reach us at all hours of the day, even when I'm not in the right state of mind to be making a big financial decision. What I always say is when you are looking for information, even though the internet has democratized financial information, even though the internet has given so much diversity to the conversation, I think sometimes personal finance advice was not necessarily geared towards women or people of color.

You have social media to fill in those gaps so that you recognize your experience in someone else's story. That being said, I would use it as a little morsel at a buffet. You don't get all the information from TikTok. You whet your appetite a little and you think, "Huh, I find that really fascinating. I'm going to find out more about, first time homebuyers," or whatever it is you heard about on TikTok. Then to seek professionals who can, be a sounding board who can give you very personalized advice, because it's called personal finance for a reason. your experience is different than other people's experience, and you want tailored advice.

Obviously getting recommendations from family and friends and looking up the reviews of this person and making sure that they have all the designations that they say they do. If they are a certified financial planner, that's a great designation. You should look up whether they do and have that designation. If they say they can get you insurance, they need to have a license to sell you insurance. These are the types of things you need to do when it comes to due diligence and finding someone and making sure that you interview at least three. I always try to talk to as many people as possible until I find the right people that I want on my team.

Erin: Excellent. That's great insight with all of the noise around us. Now research is out there that shows talking about money is a great way to build confidence, but sometimes it is hard to know where to start. Nobody wants to look like they're asking dumb questions or anything like that. We all have that bit of ego. Can you share, Melissa, some good examples about how talking about money can build confidence?

Melissa: I love dumb questions. I'm the queen of dumb questions.

Erin: Oh, good. You're with the right person. No, I'm kidding.

Melissa: No, you know what it is? I have built a career on asking questions, I'm sure as you have. It is a gateway. If you don't know something, the incredible confidence that you build by going on a journey to finding out that information is so special. I would encourage anyone, if you feel like, "Oh, I'm just not the best in blank." First of all, watch your language. You're just learning. You're on your way. You don't have to say that you're not the best at, say, I don't know enough about the stock market. Great. Okay.

That's an opportunity for you to find out more. There's so many fantastic tools out there that will support your journey. It is a journey. A little bit at a time. You don't eat the whole elephant at once. I don't know why I use that analogy. There's a book, a great financial book that talks about that idea. You sort of, little bit, tidbits. You jump over the small waves. You don't surf the giant one right away.

Erin: Okay. Talking about money in a way that's human too, I think many of us are intimidated when we go in to have the big discussions because we think that as you use the example of the stock market, it's going to be over our heads.

Melissa: If you encounter a wealth professional who uses a lot of jargon and who speaks over your head, they are not the right person for you. I have had, and I have worked with wealth professionals who even with me, with the knowledge that I have, try to use some words, I'm not sure what's happening there, if it's for their ego or they're just so eager for me to understand that they're just not doing the empathy piece where they see that my eyes are starting to glaze over, they're starting to lose me, then money is, as you said before, we were talking about how money is such a sensitive topic. People would rather talk about sex than talk about money.

If you're going to get a wealth professional on your side to talk about your life, your milestones, your life goals, you should be comfortable, and this person should want to check in with you. Sometimes we get advisors, we get a planner, and you don't see them or talk to them. No, they need to be keeping in touch with you, checking in to make sure that your goals are the same and you can ask them lots of questions.

Ask them things like, "Am I properly diversified in order to meet my goals?" Or let them know, "Hey, we've had some life changes, and that has changed what I want. My values have changed, so I want to spend money in a different way now, and I want to structure my money in a different way or talk about your fears. I'm really afraid of what will happen if I get sick, if I can't work anymore. Talk to them. These people are there to help you build the life that you want, and they get paid to do that. You want to make sure that you are maximizing their services.

Erin: Oh, and I have found that the best REALTORS®, those who have helped us through our toughest decisions have been de facto therapists, and it's just that empathy. Now that you mention it, I see that that's what that was.

Melissa: Yes. It's who you feel safe with to help you build this vision, right?

Erin: Yes. Now, I'm curious, Melissa, what are some of the common financial mistakes or misconceptions that you've seen from entrepreneurs and self-employed individuals?

Melissa: I am going to lean, Erin, on my own experience for this because my husband is self-employed, I'm self-employed, I'm from a family of entrepreneurs. My family ran, three generations of my family ran one of the oldest Chinese restaurants in Winnipeg, Manitoba, for 70 years.

Erin: What's the name in case anyone here grew up in Winnipeg?

Melissa: It was the Shanghai Restaurant in Chinatown. It was this beautiful place that helps all of us build a foundation on which we grew. However, one of the lessons that I saw there was my family members worked there tirelessly every weekend, every holiday they were there, and they were focused on a goal. They were focused on building generational wealth. Beautiful, beautiful mission. They were not taking care of themselves. They weren't paying themselves, for example. They'll say things like, "I'll pay myself someday," or they weren't paying into any retirement plan. They thought this is for the kids or the restaurant is what we'll retire on, but that was not the case.

When the restaurant finally closed down, you had staff and owners who perhaps didn't think about what their lives would look like after retirement. That piece is important. That connecting with your future self is important because I understand you wear every hat. You're the marketing director, you're the event planner for your business, and you're constantly running your business and so many else's lives as well as your own life. It's just family and friends.

Sometimes you do need to pause and make sure that you're taking care of yourself first. Sometimes you need to pause. Part of that taking care of yourself is the future and in the present. That means looking at the numbers. I have met many business owners who they run their business, they get involved in growth, but they don't take a pause to audit. They don't take a pause to think, "Okay, my confusing revenue with profit here, what's happening? What are the actual numbers here? Am I overestimating income? Am I underestimating expenses?" It's important for all of us personally and professionally to take stock every once in a while to see if we are spending in line with our values as well as our professional values.

Erin: You've talked about focusing on the work and the money and not what the money affords you. That's what one of the mistakes of your forebears was. I find that fascinating because there is in so many of us just a disconnect that if we spend on a vacation, if we take the family away now, well, what happens when the kids are grown and need to go to university and we want to pay the tuition? I guess coming around again, it comes back to having a financial advisor or somebody in your life who can give you the advice and say, "Look, this is this money, have that spending money," that spending account that you mentioned, Melissa.

Melissa: Everyone will have a different idea of how they want their money spent because everyone puts a value on different things. Money is just a tool. It doesn't mean anything. You use it. You allocate it accordingly. It's called value-based spending. If you name the top five values that you have in your life, and don't just say family and freedom, be very specific. Freedom means, retiring at 55, maybe for you. Family means having the freedom of time to spend with my husband, my kids, whatever, my wife or my partner, whatever it is that you decide.

Then looking, okay, you know what? I'm going to open my bank app, which I should have on the front page of my phone so that you can be mindful of spending and saving and investing and whatnot. You open that up and you look, you say, "Okay, let me look over the last month or two, all these purchases here, my surplus, did I spend it in any of these value categories? If not, can I make different choices?"

Erin: What about that money can't buy happiness, Melissa?

Melissa: Money, as I said in the beginning, I think money can buy happiness. It has a limit. It has a limit. I love this question because people often say, "Oh, you can't tell me what to buy because I like shoes." If that makes me happy, who are you to say? I think, sure, if that makes you happy, don't let anyone tell you that that doesn't make you happy. You decide, but that also means that your resources are finite. If you decide that shoes make you happy, that money has to come from somewhere else. You have to determine that is a valuable or worthwhile trade-off because it's always about trade-offs.

That's probably one of the very first things I'm teaching my children when it comes to personal finance. Everything involves a trade-off. When you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else. Science has given us many things that we can buy that will give us a maximum boost of joy. We don't have forever to talk about it, but I do want to make sure that I talk about three for your listeners. The first is experiences. When people spend on experiences, it bonds you to other people versus material goods, which are usually enjoyed alone. You've got the greater bang for your buck because you're talking about the experiences later.

You have memories, you have goodwill, you maybe have learned a skill, which basically expands the way you experience happiness. In a study of happy people, when they received a windfall of cash, they spent 40% of it on experiences. The second is the thing that we talked about earlier, which is other people. Worldwide surveys show that when you spend on other people, when you donate to charity, not only do you feel more satisfied with life, but you actually feel wealthier. It has a tremendous opportunity to give you purpose, but you have to be purposeful.

Sometimes we have, okay, well, this charity drive's coming to my door, or there's this Facebook drive going on, or a GoFundMe, and that's less intentional. Maybe saying, what, I have this amount of money to spend a year on charity. 50% of it is going to go to my charity of choice, which I believe is very, very in line with my passions and my values. 30% is going to go to my community. I'm going to save 20% for unplanned giving. That is going to be more empowering than this, "I'll give when I can, and maybe at the end of the year, I'll see over the holidays when I'm in the spirit." It's being intentional with it, and also combining experiences with giving to others.

One of my favorite things that we did in the last few years is during the pandemic, my son and some of our friends, everything was shut down. We were just outside and we filmed a dinosaur movie and held a virtual screening of this dinosaur movie. We charged everyone tickets and had an interview with the stars, the director afterwards, and all the money that we raised, we donated to a family in need. It was such a beautiful event for my family and friends, my community. I encourage everyone to think more about that. Number three is time savers. People who value time over money, they are happier, according to research. You can make yourself happier if you start to value time over money.

Yes, that may mean you don't take on an extra client this month, but you understand that there's a trade-off there. That might make you happier. You could also try to buy time back. For example, with all of the unpaid housework that a lot of women are saddled with, say, I think it was a per capita stats can said in 2019, it was, 820 unpaid hours of work. Maybe you want to, pay somebody, the kid down the street to mow the lawn or something to help you save some time. It can take a lot of forms.

Erin: I love that idea. Those three are just so salient, Melissa. This discussion has been amazing, so insightful, and we appreciate you spending time with us today. If you had to give our listeners and viewers one place to start on their financial awareness journey, what would it be?

Melissa: The first thing I would say is to look, maybe on a more macro level inward. To look at yourself, how are you spending money? What do you care about? What was it like for you growing up when it came to money? How does that affect how you think about it and how you operate with money today? Often money mainly grows on family trees. A lot of the things that your parents say, this is somehow becoming ingrained in you when it comes to finances. That's number one. Give your money some deeper thought. Why do I do the things that I do? Forget about what Melissa Leong said about the science, but what is it about my own story that drives my financial behavior?

Then second, this is more tangible. The first thing you can do when you want to look into money in general is to look into your own money. That is printing out your bank statements for the last three months. That's opening the app and looking and starting to categorize things. A lot of bank apps these days do the categories for you and actually look at where your money is going. Then you can decide if you want to cut here. Then you could decide, "Oh, I need to spend more money on the things that I really value."

Erin: We really value your time, your insight, and your wonderful presence here today. Thank you so much, Melissa, for joining us on REAL TIME.

Melissa: Thank you, Erin. It was a gift.

Erin: Oh, thanks. Money doesn't have to be a taboo topic. Melissa shared some great stories and insights about how we spend and why we spend. Hopefully, you now have some more tools in your toolkit to start your own path to financial confidence. As always, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always, always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for watching and for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll talk to you next time on REAL TIME.

From a trailer park in Newfoundland to buying properties and land across Canada, to even buying and selling homes in the United States, Canadian actor and comedian Shaun Majumder has lived all over North America—in many types of homes. His life journey can be mapped through real estates, with emotional memories attached to every move.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Shaun joins us from CREA PAC Days 2024 to share his first memory of home, how his different moves helped shape his journey and experiences, and how finding the right REALTOR® was more about than just who was the most knowledgeable—it was about who was the best fit.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Fill in the blank. Home is? If you thought, "Where the heart is," you're not alone, but what does that really mean? It can change as we go through life. It's your family home where your childhood memories were made. It's a college dorm room where you felt like an adult for the first time in your life. It's the home in a new city halfway across the country where you decided you wanted to start fresh.

If you think about it, many of our life stories can really be told through real estate in some form or another. We're going to have ups and downs, but there's always something to learn along the way. Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Today we're joined by Shaun Majumder, an actor and comedian who's been through his fair share of moves and who's joining us to share his own life's journey through real estate. Shaun, after all of these years of welcoming you into our homes, it seems redundant to welcome you here, but it's so good to have you talking with us today on REAL TIME. Thank you for making the time for us.

Shaun Majumder: It is my pleasure. It is so good to be here, and I'm currently in Ottawa, and I believe you are where currently right now as we sit here?

Erin: Southern Vancouver Island. Isn't technology grand?

Shaun: Very exciting.

Erin: Yes.

Shaun: I know. I'm still on Los Angeles time because I flew in from LA yesterday to be here, so we are on the exact same timeframe. We're all unified.

Erin: Wonderful.

Shaun: It's beautiful.

Erin: Yes, and I know we'll be on the same wavelength today as well as we talk about home and what it's meant to you and your whole realty and real estate experience through the years, but let's go back to what is your first memory of home? You're so good with words. Paint a picture for us.

Shaun: Growing up in rural Newfoundland, I was raised in a tiny town, 350 people with no money. The thing that I was focused on, I think as a little child, was my mom who took great care of us. It was me, my mom, my sister and my wiener dog. It was about shelter. It was about survival. We were literally, we needed to live somewhere.

When I think about the stories that come from the places that you live, as adults, we focus on things like square footage, and we think about the markets and mortgage rates. I had no exposure to this ever growing up and even up until only a short while ago, my real estate education was so bad. I didn't even understand like buying a house. How do you do that? Can you afford it? What does it mean for your future? Is that an investment or is it just a place to live? All of these things have come to me as I've gotten older.

My very first place that I ever remember being inside of and calling it a home, my mom, I think, she basically moved us into this tiny little trailer. It was like a tin box. It was the safe space for me. It held off crazy Newfoundland winter storms. It was a place of love and warmth and safety and security. At least that was from my perspective growing up. Now if you look at it now, dude, it was a health hazard. There were electrical wires that were exposed. There were rats running around. When I think about now, it was like we had nothing. I remember the floors had that roll on plastic canvas. The technology has come a long way now. The smell of mold and mildew.

Oh, God, the memories are taking me back. This was my first home. It was so funny. I was actually sitting down, and I was writing some things out. I actually was like, "Well, what would that place, if we were doing an MLS® listing--" Remember, now, this is a tiny little shack, sort of near the ocean in small town, Newfoundland. Questionable running water at times. Hot? Forget about it. This is how I would try to put this listing up. "Ocean front hideaway with vintage charm."

Erin: Oh. I love it.

Shaun: "750 square foot, two beds, one bath, ocean views. Step into this exclusive aluminum clad retreat boasting an expansive 750 square foot of rustic charm from the earthy aroma of the authentic moldy vinyl floors to the exposed electrical wiring that gives a peek into the home's inner workings. Every detail is a testament to this timeless character with cozy six-foot ceilings," honestly, it was a hobbit home, "creating an intimate atmosphere. You'll love the vintage appeal of the cupboards, some delightfully loose on their hinges to provide open shelving." They were falling apart, basically.

"Enjoy the added peace of mind with walls lightly packed with asbestos. A natural fireproofing solution ensuring that no flame will threaten your trailer. Except of course, the occasional whiff of mesothelioma. For nature lovers, the kitchen comes complete with furry residents." We had rats. Yes, we did. "Under the sink connecting you with the wildlife outside."

It's pretty amazing how you can frame something. Again, when we talk about the importance of a home and how it informs you as a human being, these were my earliest memories for me. They were some of the most positive memories for me because it was about the people that were in that home and the creatures that were there, not the rats, but my wiener dog, I'll never forget. When I started this journey on this planet, that was the bar that was set for me. At a very early age, the concept going from that to anywhere where I am now, that's the frame of reference. Everything beyond that was a bonus. You know what I mean?

Erin: Yes, I totally do.

Shaun: When I think about housing and I think about where we lived, and it has its pros and cons because now my understanding of what real estate is and how much is too much and what is the value, I've never been able to really wrap my head around it, to get a really good compass, unless you sit down and you really, really educate on the academic level exactly what market means and what value means. What is value? I think that's an important thing, yes.

Erin: Right. Value is what your heart sets and not just what the market says. By the way, that listing you read me, I think it sounds charming. Do you have a price?

Shaun: I think, no. No, it is no longer there. I've been back to Burlington many times. Someone bought it, but I think they might've bought it for $500 or something like that.

Erin: Yet your memories are priceless. I'm picturing you just riding around the area with other kids on your bikes, making those childhood dreams. Okay, the rodents weren't your pets, but they could have been. In a Stephen King novel, they would have been. It's just, that's the picture of home. I have to fast forward to now with two children of your own, and I know we're jumping ahead. We'll go back to the middle, I promise you. If your children ever say, "Daddy, I need a bigger room." Do you ever go back to that trailer and go, "Okay, wait a minute." Does it sort of form your entire perspective for what your children have now? Does it give you that foundation?

Shaun: It's interesting because I'm not attached to my early days of where I lived as a way of saying, "Hey, listen, we don't need more space." Because I lived in a place that had no space. I think what it did, it gave me a perspective of being grateful and being thankful and being conscious of what really matters. I think that's what it taught me early on. Coming from not much, and I say that, graded on a curve because I had everything. That's how I looked at it. I think what it did is instilled in me, coming from that place, I think, my journey is different than someone, let's say, who was raised in a seven-bedroom house in a really nice area. Once you start your life there, then everything is about comparative, everything is comparisons and comps at that point.

For my kids now, it's interesting because my kids, one was born in Los Angeles, one was born in Petoskey, Michigan. We have a nice house in Los Angeles. She only knows the nice house in Los Angeles, the house that I now live in currently. Both of them, both girls, one is two, one is five. It's interesting because now I think, "Okay, well, wherever we go next, and what the future will be for them, that's their baseline." However, we go back to Newfoundland a lot. We spend time in one of the houses that I did buy, which is another property that blows me away.

Now I'd be curious to hear what the listeners think of this. My journey in real estate, again, it goes from small town, Newfoundland, to probably Ontario, then to Los Angeles. That's a combination of renting. That's a combination of owning some things. Owning came later, and I'll get to that. By bringing my daughters back to the same place where I was raised, I think is a very grounding thing.

We have a small house there. Very small. It's a little box that's maybe, man, it's maybe 50 by 50. It was an old saltbox house, that when my dad, before he passed away, he wanted to go back to Newfoundland. He's from India. His story is an amazing story, too, which would be a different podcast. I remember my dad was about ready to retire in Mississauga. He was living in Mississauga at the time. He was done working for Petro-Canada. He was like, "Shaun, I think I want to go back to by the ocean. I want to retire there. I want to have a nice life there."

I was home one year, and I asked around, I'm like, "Is there any houses available? What's going on?" There was one house that was on the ocean. Beautiful spot, beautiful little piece of land. I asked, I go, "Can I get that? Is it available?" "Yes, they might sell to you." By now I'd been on TV for a little while. They were going to take me for a ride. They were like, "Oh, Shaun Majumder, he's rich."

Erin: Yes. He can afford it.

Shaun: I ended up buying a house on the ocean for $25,000. It was a rip off. A rip off in the way that other people were like, "You paid what? That is way too much." I'm like, "Wait a minute." I live in LA now. I know that the value of this house on the ocean. $25,000. Nevermind that. Before I bought this house, I actually bought another property. This is even crazier.

The very first thing I ever bought was I went home, and I was asking around for land generally just for me. A friend said, "Oh, yes, I think the school that you went to when you were a little kid. I think the guy who owns that now is looking to get rid of it. Do you want to talk to him?" I said, "Yes, sure. How much?" I talked to him. The school that I went to in the middle of a town by the ocean $2,700. $2,700. This is before I was on TV a lot. It was just enough. He didn't try to take me for a ride. He was like, "Yes, take it 27." There's still back taxes that are owed on it. Is another $750. I got nailed on that. Still a piece of land anywhere on planet Earth for $2,700 near the ocean, and the school that I went to, it was crazy.

Erin: What did you do with that school? What did you do with it, Shaun?

Shaun: The school, it was a decrepit building. Locally, there were people who went, and they took it down and they reused some of the wood and they took the copper out and they cleaned the site. Basically, it's a land that exists there now. When I think about value, and I think about the amount of money and then I go to LA, I'm at an apartment building that I'm renting there for $1,250 a month, which actually was really good at the time. It was locked in. The life experiences I was having there were amazing. Then they were turning those condo buildings, they were going to sell them. We had to leave.

I was like, "Okay, well, what am I going to do?" I met my current wife now, we were living there as a couple. She was like, "Yes, you got to go buy a house?" I'm like, "I can't afford a house. A house in LA? Are you kidding me?" Then my business manager at the time, he applied for a loan, and I was approved for a half a million-dollar loan. Half a million. I was like, "What? Half of a million. A million, half of that I get to have and do something with for a house? Oh my gosh, I'm going to buy a mansion. This is it." I didn't know that I could do that.

Again, this all goes back to my tiny trailer in small town Newfoundland. Then also $2,700 for a piece of property, $25,000, half a million. I get this loan and I'm like, "We got to find a house." Then we started looking and there was nothing like that was livable for half a million. Again, it's all perspective. We ended up buying my first house, proper house in an area in Los Angeles, California that was a little outside the main area. It was a small two bedroom. I believe the square footage was 2,600 square feet. It wasn't a big house, but it was up on a hill facing west, beautiful sunset views, everything that we could ask for. Me and my new-found love of my life.

I literally carried her across a threshold. We bought a house, it's amazing. The area was amazing, at least up on the hill, because then we started watching a TV show called Gangland. There was an episode of Gangland that was talking about this one particular group called the Avenues Gang. There was a story about a beheading, literally a beheading that happened. I was like, "Oh, wait, that street looks familiar." It was just down the hill from where we had just bought this house.

As it turns out, the area that we were in, we drove through that street all the time. It was like a hornet's nest of gangs that still were there. We're like, "Oh my gosh, this is insane, right?" It didn't feel unsafe. It wasn't unsafe. It was unsafe. The house itself was up on the hill. Again, I'm not the same as my girlfriend at the time. Being female in Los Angeles is a different experience. I'm sorry, but it is. Meaning like, again, as a man, we don't think about the same things that perhaps she would think about it. She said this to me, she's like, "You have no idea. We think about everything differently when it comes to security and safety." I'm very, "Ah, nothing bad will ever happen." Which is not the best approach.

Erin: You've had a lot of experiences and even before, of course, your marriage about 12 years ago. Let us get you back from Newfoundland and you mentioned Ontario briefly and then on to Los Angeles. Let's carry on down this road of adventures and how you felt with each progressive move, Shaun.

Shaun: Yes, each progression really informed me of different things at different times in my life. I think that's something that, again, I was never educated about the importance of home purchasing. I never thought of real estate as real estate. I never did. All I thought about was, "Where am I going to live and where am I living now?" I didn't think about at the time, like when I moved from Newfoundland to Ontario, that was an interesting journey because my parents had split when I was a baby. That's why I was living with my mom in small town, Newfoundland, with my sister and my wiener dog named Wiener, by the way.

Erin: Creative.

Shaun: Awesome name, mom. Awesome name. When I lived there with my mom and my sister, and then I guess there were some high-level discussions between mom and dad about mom moving back in with dad, but for the sake of the family. That was the thing. It's like, "Let's all live together as a family and, mom, you can leave Newfoundland and come to Ontario." I guess this was the discussion they were having.

We picked up and we left my childhood home. I remember we were in a U-Haul and we were driving down the highway and I was leaving my town behind and I was sad and it was very hard. I knew I was going somewhere that I was a huge fan of, and that was Toronto. Toronto was everything to me because my dad lived there and I looked up to him and I was a fan of him. I was a Toronto Blue Jay fan back in the day of the Ernie Whitt days, the Alfredo Griffin days. I was a huge baseball fan. I was a huge Toronto Maple Leaf fan. I bled blue and white, and I guess a little bit of red for the Jays. It was just like, everything was Toronto and I'm going to Toronto. We got on the ferry and we were heading up and we got there.

I remember driving and seeing the CN Tower and we kept going and we kept-- I'm like, "There's Toronto. Why are we still driving? Toronto's back there. Where are we going? Dad, where are you taking us?" "Mississauga." "What? Mrs. What?" This is '80s Mississauga. Not cool, sexy, one of the greatest places to live in the world now, so they say. Mississauga with their absolute towers. By the way, the architect must've been drinking a ton of Absolute while designing those buildings, they're beautiful, but they're a little twisty. I don't know.

Erin: Yes. The Marilyn Monroe. Yes.

Shaun: Yes. We ended up at Mississauga. It wasn't Toronto and it was very different than what I imagined. He had said we're moving into a semi-detached townhouse. Is that safe? I'm like, "Wait, it's semi-detached. Is it fully attached? What are we talking about?" This description of a building, a semi-detached townhouse did not feel secure and safe for me as a kid who-- I'm just trying to want a secure place to live.

We ended up at a place 2315 Bromsgrove Road in a semi-detached townhouse, a condo, which was very strange for me, but it was like a little community because it was in one of those townhouse complexes that had their own road. It was like a campground, but it wasn't. It was very interesting. It turned me to the gang life because I was a little Brown fella that had a little mustache. I looked ambiguously ethnic. I fit right in, but they were recruiting me, the new kid, and we would do terrible things like throw crab apples at cars driving by and water balloons.

This new place that I live now with people of all these different ethnicities, which was amazing to me, it blew me away. Now I was in this multicultural, rich, diverse, Jamaican, Trinidad, India, Asian culture, everything was there mashed up, which was a far cry from where I was before, in small town, white Newfoundland. I thought I was white. I didn't know I was anything but white growing up, but then apparently no, I'm ethnic now. I was like, "Okay, I'm ethnic now. I love it."

Living in Mississauga was like, "Oh my gosh, this is such a strange and amazing place," but I loved it. I loved it. It took some getting used to, but the parents moving in with each other, not a good idea. Not a good idea. Bad. They were divorced for a reason. Now we're living in a townhouse. I'm like a young teenage tweenage fella with a mom and dad who are always fighting. Me and my sister always fought. I brought my wiener dog, and he had a Springer Spaniel and those dogs were always fighting. It was a very stress-free, relaxed, casual vibe in Mississauga where I was living.

My teenage years of thinking about what Mississauga was like, semi-detached condo, it was community, but it was definitely a stressful time. Then my mom moved out and we went into a high-rise building on Bodmin Road, which was not far, which informed me of a whole new life where now it was high-rise living.

Erin: Elevators.

Shaun: Elevators. That was huge. It was also interesting because my mom, she was working at an old folks' home. She was a nurse. She would literally, it was me and my mom, my sister stayed with my dad in the condominium down the street. Then it was me, my mom, she would work from 11:00 at night to 7:00 in the morning. Then I had an apartment to myself from 11:00 till 7:00. That led to me, like you would when you're 15 living in Mississauga, you pick up the keys to the Hyundai Stellar and you're going to go for a little drive because I still had gang ties. I use gang very loosely here, guys. I wasn't really a part of a gang.

Erin: The crab apple gang, yes.

Shaun: The crab apple gang. We would take my Hyundai Stellar and we'd go for a ride around just that street area at night. One night, I'll never forget it. This is all because of where I live now. Keep this in mind. This is all real estate related. Because I lived in this apartment, I remember we parked the Hyundai Stellar next to the Miracle Food Mart. We all went in because we were going to go get some gum. Came back out, car was gone. I was like, "What's going on?" A guy goes, "Is that your car, bud?" I looked and the car was out of park and rolling towards traffic slowly because it wasn't a steep.

I was running towards this car and luckily the grass and the curb stopped it just before it went into traffic. I was 15. What that would have done to my life if that car went out into that thing. Again, this was all because of where I was living at the time in a very low rent place. Again, speaking to the low rent side of things, I didn't understand what that meant. How hard that must have been for my mom too, who was just fighting to work long enough just to pay rent. This idea of rent and stresses around rent was something that I was unaware of until later in life. Anyway, yes, these are just little stories about where I lived and how it informed my perspective,

Erin: It's sad that the year that you signed on with This Hour Has 22 Minutes is the year that she passed away. Did she get to get even a glimpse of the success that you were about to achieve, Shaun?

Shaun: She saw some early successes. She saw me on YTV. That was huge. That was huge, working on television. She saw me doing lots of standup and stuff like that. She was an amazing mom. She passed away in 2003, and it was interesting because we went back into that apartment, the same apartment I'm talking about, after she passed away. Her sister was there, and she said something really powerful.

I remember we were going through all of mom's stuff, and my aunt, she was really upset, obviously. One thing she said was she was like, "This may not be a lot where we are right here in this place, but she was doing everything she could to make it the best place it could possibly be." Again, that goes back to the trailer, the original trailer that we lived in, where there was no moment in my life where I felt like we didn't have. There was no moment in my life where I feel like we were lacking in any way, shape, or form.

That's powerful when you think about it, when we think about real estate, and we think about purchasing things, and how it informs who we are as people. We attach our identity to a lot of things. I think that no matter the square footage, no matter the value of your house, no matter how big or fancy, coming from where I came from, and the way mom instilled that value system in me, again, it goes back to the good and the bad of that.

When I think about my education and my knowledge of real estate, it had the ups and downs. I think at the core, it definitely makes me super thankful for everything that I have moving beyond that. Then to instill those values in my daughters as well. I think that's going to be very important. It's hard. It's hard when your first thing that you have is something really nice.

Erin: Yes, it's true.

Shaun: How then do you navigate managing expectations, I think, from that point on?

Erin: So true. Let me ask you, Shaun. When you lay in bed, either in the trailer and a bed, undoubtedly that you shared with your sister and of course, Wiener, the Wiener dog.

Shaun: Exactly, and a few bed bugs.

Erin: Yes, well, we'll leave those out for the next podcast.

Shaun: Please do.

Erin: Then the next iteration in the semi-detached townhouse that you thought would be so close to the then SkyDome. When you lay in bed, what did you think of when you thought, "When I make it, here's where I'm going to live?" What was that dream or what you pictured and did it come to fruition?

Shaun: I didn't have a dream. I didn't have a dream. I didn't. Again, this goes back, this is what I'm saying. I never dreamt of the nice house. Again, I was like, "I need to make enough money to pay rent. I need to be able to have a decent place to live." I didn't think in my mind that-- it's about value. Again, I didn't have the dream. It's so interesting because the dreams only came when the wife came. When Shelby came into my life.

Now this is interesting because she is incredibly astute and knowledgeable of the things that I was not. Value, real estate. For some reason, she was obsessed with real estate from very early on. She loved markets. She loved seeing what houses were selling for what in what neighborhoods. Thank God she came into my life, because she was the one who was first to say, "Hey, look, I think you should purchase something." This is in Los Angeles, but I was like, "I can't afford it." Of course, I can afford it. I just didn't understand how the system worked.

When I saw the price of a house, I was like, "I can't buy that." You don't buy that. You get a loan, and you understand leveraging value and understanding your interest rates and monthly payments. I did not know any of this stuff. When we bought that first house, I think that was the first time where I started to see is like, "Oh my God, Shelby, you're right. Buying a house, not only is it an amazing investment, but it's also something that then moving forward gives you leverage to get you into whatever that next thing is."

That first house in Los Angeles, again, it was 665,000. We put maybe 60,000 to 100,000 into the house. We bought that house, I think it was in 2005. We were like, "Boom," we saw that value starting to go up, to go tick up. I wasn't tracking value. Again, I didn't even understand what that meant. I didn't look for that. Then 2007 rolled around, then 2008 rolled around.

Erin: Yikes.

Shaun: Shelby was freaking out. I was like, "What do you mean?" She would track it, she's looking, she's like, "Our house is now half the value that it was only a few years ago." That was a scary thing. At the same time, I was like, "Are we selling? We're not selling, so it's going to come back. I'm sure it'll come back." She was like, "No, it's never going to come back." Luckily it did come back. We were also on the backside of that, I think it was in 2000 and-- we held on to that house for a long time.

Then we were in a position where, again, Shelby was dialed into the real estate market and she found a house that was over in one of the nicest areas in Los Angeles, one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Los Angeles. She's like, "It's a screaming deal. This is a screaming deal for this house." It was north of a million dollars. Again, I'm sorry, but as a tiny town Newfoundland guy, I'm like, "Hey, a million bucks. Are you kidding me? We can't afford that." She was like, "Of course you can. What is wrong with you? We have the leverage of this house versus that house."

Then we were like, "Okay, well, we're going to sell this house and we're going to buy this other house." She found a house that she really liked. I was like, "Oh, my God, it's an amazing house," but I was nervous about it. The way that it worked was the only way we would get approved for the house over here was if it was contingent on the sale. Our house over here didn't appraise at the value. It was under what we were listing it for.

The buyers were like, "No, we're not going to take it at that price that we agreed to already. Now that it is appraised here, you got to sell it for here." It would have put us even on this house. As it turns out, we were getting a screaming deal on this house over here. It ended up working out. That's now the house that I'm in right now, which is a house that has appreciated exponentially over the last bunch of years.

Again, not something I could have imagined or foresaw because I just was never wired or taught, and I think that's important to take away now when I look at it now with the-- I'm stoked on real estate now. I'm like, "Oh my God, I want to know more. I want to do more. I want to buy more. I want to educate myself." It's a little late in the game for me, but it's never too late to really dive in.

Over the years too, not only that, I've bought buildings, I've bought buildings with partners that have been up and down. One of them, I invested in a small hotel that was in Santa Barbara that my business manager said, "Throw me 30K and we'll say that broke even." I found out later, this is a funny story, that the same company that had that hotel wanted to buy a small hotel in Newfoundland, the Battery Hotel in St. John's, Newfoundland, and they wanted to call it Hotel California. I was like, "Hmm."

Erin: No. You can check out anytime you want.

Shaun: "I think managing expectations there." Probably wouldn't call it that. Don't call it that. I'll invest in it, but I will-- I bought another building with a partner of mine, Ron Lovett, who is doing incredible work. I just got to give him a huge shout out. He has a company called Vita Living. He is reframing the affordable housing market. He's blowing it up. He's doing incredible work. Look up Vita Living, Ron Lovett.

I bought one of my first buildings, and I think one of his first buildings, we bought together just outside of Halifax, understanding the rules around the tenant laws and how incredibly hard and difficult that can be to manage. Thank God I wasn't managing that, he was. Over the years, I've done different things in the real estate market. Again, a home is a home is a home. That is what really matters to me now when I think about buying currently for my family, my little nuclear family. That's going to be really interesting moving forward.

Erin: I know you don't want to give advice. That's not what you're here for today. You've done such a wonderful job of painting pictures of the places in your life that you have lived and your adventures. Where do the basic skills and talents of the good comedian, the good improv artist, the yes and, and the listener, the person moving the conversation forward as being in kindred spirit with good REALTORS®?

Shaun: Yes, I think your relationship with your REALTOR® is one of the most important ones. Seeing a REALTOR®, meeting a REALTOR®, hearing their pitch, hearing how they manage expectations I think is a really important factor when you are partnering with a REALTOR®. I've had several different REALTORS®. I've had different agents as an actor, and I think bottom line, authenticity is one thing that I feel like is so important.

A person who is authentic, a person who is a great listener, I think a person who is a great no BS kind of a person too, because I think that you can have an agent who can tell you so many great things that you want to hear. One thing that I've learned, whether it's in the industry that I'm in as an actor, as a creative person, we can be susceptible to hearing the things that are going to get us excited about partnering because they're going to promise the world. "We're going to do this, we're going to get you this, and this is going to happen."

I find that, in both the acting agent world and the real estate agent world, the grounded, practical, but also forward-thinking strategic REALTORS®, they're the ones that I've always responded well to. We're actually talking to a REALTOR® right now. There were two REALTORS® that I spoke with over the last little while. This is really interesting. We met with a guy who came to our house. He's a star of one of these reality shows and he's a great guy. He's a super great guy, but he deals with $10 to $50 million homes in on the Sunset Strip. We met with him, come look at our house, talk to us about-- he was enthusiastic out of the gates when we sent him a note.

It was like, "We're going to come, we're going to have a conversation." His conversation is immediate reaction to the house. When we were talking about the number that we were looking at, hoping to get, or we had a general idea as to what we were hoping to get, his first reaction was, "No, you're never going to get that. You're never going to get that." Then I was like, "Okay, well, I don't mind being schooled on what the market is doing right now." He had answers before the questions and that was something that turned us off no matter what, maybe he's absolutely right. There was an initial interaction with us that really was a bit of a turnoff.

Then I met with another guy. He sat down, he was the warmest. He said, "Listen, we're not even going to think about a price right now. What we're going to do is we're going to talk about your needs, what you're looking to do. We're going to be honest about what we think is realistic. We're going to come up with a strategy, but we're not going to come up with any pricing until we get to that place. Because also the market is like the wind, who knows what's going to happen with the upcoming election? Who knows what's going to happen with interest rates? Are they going to go up? Are they going to go down? Let's see what the buyers are." This was the conversation we were having.

Immediately I was like, "I love this guy. I love his vibe. He listens, he's practical. He knows my local area incredibly well. He's got a good team." It was just that vibe immediately that made me go, "This is somebody that I can work with and that I really want to work with to make this. If we're going to put our house up, this is the personality that I would be interested in working with."

I think, any advice that I can say to REALTORS®, I guess, from a buyer or seller perspective, I know that you guys do workshops. I know that you guys have trained through the wazoo. I will say on a very simple person to person, experience. Being a great listener is one of the most important things and I'm going through it right now. I just had that experience that it made me feel really comfortable with this REALTOR® who listened to where we were at, what we wanted to get from our house. He was also very grounded and practical at the same time.

Erin: You have made better listeners of all of us today, Shaun. You really, truly have. It's been such a pleasure.

Shaun: I hope you can make sense of some of the crazy.

Erin: Are you kidding? What a life.

Shaun: Yes. I hope you can make sense of some of what I was talking about.

Erin: Absolutely.

Shaun: Yes, for me, I'm driven by story and real estate has become such a huge part of my story, not in the buying and selling perspective, but the places we live. I think we can lose sight of the importance of where we live and experience, and the value of that when we talk about real estate. It's not all about numbers and value in the market. It's about value in life. When I think about all of this, it's more about the ROI in the life experience versus dollars down.

Erin: Shaun, just before we go, we have heard where you're from and now you would like our listeners and viewers to go to from. Can you make sense of that sentence for me, please?

Shaun: I can. From, people are freaking out about this show. It's a show we started making in during COVID. It's shot in Halifax. It has a Canadian connection. It's a horror series that Stephen King loves. He thinks it's one of the scariest shows on TV. It's a really cool show about a small town where people get trapped, and they can't get out. At night monsters come out and eat you. Just like my experience growing up a small town, Newfoundland. It's a great show. I would encourage you all to go watch it from the beginning. It's the same people that did Lost. It's a puzzle show, you got to figure it out. For those of you who know, you already know, it's taken the world by storm right now. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Erin: Congratulations, Shaun, on that, on everything. Thanks again for joining us here today. We're so grateful.

Shaun: Thank you so much.

Erin: As always, if you liked this episode, and we're sure you did, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for watching and for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

There are countless ways to succeed in real estate and no two individuals take the exact same route—so, how then does a real estate professional confidently make their next move? There’s so much to learn from other REALTORS® and those who have been in the industry for a long period of time, or have taken a unique path to success.

Mentorship doesn’t just benefit the mentees—mentors also have a lot to gain—like leadership skills, a helping create a more vibrant industry, improved communication skills, insight from different perspectives, a broader network, and boosted confidence. For mentees, the guidance and knowledge transfer is invaluable, networking opportunities can help grow your business, and learning the ins and outs of the industry from someone who’s been through it already can help boost your confidence, too.

Nicole Christy, CEO at the Ottawa Real Estate Board, and Rachel Gagnon, REALTOR® and Top 35 Under 35 with Royal Lepage, join the latest episode of the REAL TIME podcast to talk about their experience with mentorship and how it’s helped their careers.

Transcript

Erin Davis: What did you do the last time you were stuck overthinking a decision you had to make at work or were uncertain what your next move should be in a sticky situation? Who do you trust to help with those tough calls? Real estate mentorship can be a mutually beneficial experience for both the mentor and the mentee and it's something that REALTORS® and real estate professionals alike can explore throughout their entire career, not just in the beginning. Learning never stops. No matter your age, your career or your journey, there's always something to be learned and someone to learn from.

Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: To get a better understanding of what exactly real estate mentorship entails and how to go about creating a successful mentor-mentee relationship, we have two incredible real estate professionals with us who are well-versed in this environment. Joining us today are Nicole Christy, CEO of Ottawa Real Estate Board, and Rachel Gagnon, a top 35 under 35 REALTOR® with Royal LePage. Hello to you both and thank you so much for joining us today to talk about mentorship within the REALTOR® association community.

Now just before we dive in, let's start by having you introduce yourselves, give us a bit of background on who you are and how real estate mentorship has been a part of your career and we're going to start with you, Nicole.

Nicole Christy: Perfect. Thank you, Erin. Yes, I have been in the real estate industry for almost 15 years. I got my start at the Canadian Real Estate Association. It was a co-op position coming out of the University of Ottawa and I've taken the experience, I've learned there, and I've worked for some of the top tier advocacy associations here in Ottawa. Returned to the real estate community back in 2021 when I joined with the London St. Thomas Association of REALTORS® to begin work at the local level. Now I'm here in Ottawa as the CEO of the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: You, Rachel, what's your story?

Rachel: Yes, so I actually started in the real estate industry in 2015. I was licensed in 2015 as a 19-year-old and I'm a real estate broker here in Ottawa with Royal LePage Performance Realty. I got my start in the industry with a very small brokerage on a very small team, and then a few years later, I transitioned to becoming a solo agent in a large brokerage, and now I'm just in the process of building my own small team.

Erin: Wow, okay. Let's get right to it. What exactly, to you, is mentorship within the real estate industry, and have your experiences followed a set pattern or structure or do you feel like you developed your own unique model? Rachel.

Rachel: To me, real estate mentorship is really, it's an always evolving, pretty much a daily task. It can be as short and sweet as answering somebody's quick and simple question or it can develop into a career spanning relationship that you build. We all know that our days don't look the same and sometimes you run into something that you never thought you would experience, and you need to turn to see who could potentially guide you into figuring out what the solution is. Sometimes that can just be having a trusted point of contact. You can have a few.

Then I would say that you end up having two or three long-term mentors along the way who you share values with and who you look to when it's maybe something a bit more fluid, a bit more gray, and that you need to see how they transition to the other side in their own career, and then figure out how you're going to implement that into your own.

Erin: As far as you know, is your path similar to those of other REALTORS® that you've spoken with, or did you just follow your own heart?

Rachel: I would say I've been pretty true to myself. I really prefer a one-on-one personal approach with my clients, and I think I've associated myself with mortgage brokers, lawyers, and other r REALTORS® who have the similar values along the way. I would say that I've pretty much followed my own path in that regard. Through the years, I've also looked at how other people have structured their own career and seen how I could implement little bits and pieces of their way of doing things into my own. I would say most REALTORS® end up having their unique path and we all end up in the same direction but take your own path to get there.

Erin: Okay, Nicole, let's hear for you what you say mentorship is within the real estate industry and your experiences.

Nicole: Absolutely. Mine is very similar to Rachel's. I find that mentorship really ebbs and flows throughout your career. Some mentorship opportunities or mentorship experiences that you seek out, they have a really short time horizon. They're issue-specific. You're maybe joining a new brokerage or you're joining a new association, and you need to learn the ropes of this new environment. It might be something short-lived like an onboarding. Then there's mentorships that I've been able to benefit from throughout my career. I've been able to turn to these folks at times where I'm struggling, whether it's professionally or personally, to get a sense of how they would manage, navigate these circumstances.

Sometimes you just need somebody who's going to be able to hold up a mirror and give you feedback that's sometimes hard to hear but it's necessary for growth. That's what I've appreciated in the people that have formed that inner circle for me. They're there when I need them. They're a text, a phone call, a Zoom call away, and they're happy to provide that feedback that I need that maybe I don't want to hear in the moment, but that will give me that growth opportunity.

Erin: Nicole, it seems too, if I'm hearing both you and Rachel correctly, that this isn't just a one-way flow of information.

Rachel: Oh, no.

Erin: It's not just you getting everything. It's you sharing what with your peers as well.

Nicole: Absolutely. This is a two-way street. As that relationship grows and it becomes often more of a friendship, it's a mentorship still, but it's a friendship. It could be a colleagueship. It could take a bunch of different forms. While you're sharing your experiences, they're learning a little bit of what's going on in the industry, what's going on at the association, what's going on with the board or the brokerage, and they're benefiting from this exchange. It's an exchange of information, ideas, opinions, and it's something that they then can use for their own benefit as well.

Often you find that your mentors or your mentees are ways to bridge into new opportunities for yourself. As you're having these conversations, they're connecting you with their networks and you're being able to benefit from the relationship that you formed.

Erin: How long does a mentorship usually last? Can you answer that for us first, Rachel?

Rachel: I like to keep it very organic. I think it's very normal that when you have a certain situation that you're trying to get through, that you realize when you've gained the information that you need in order to get to the other side. Then at that point, it just becomes a natural professional or personal relationship, and like Nicole said, typically they become friends. You look to them for professional guidance, and then at a certain point, you get to know them as people and their relationship gradually changes within your life. It's not to say you won't circle back, but I would say that sometimes it's a case-by-case basis, and then sometimes it's a longer growth process that you're looking to go through.

You'll check in with them here and there maybe on a more formal basis, and then sometimes it's in passing just when you touch base on other topics.

Erin: People understand that, right? In the mentor-mentee relationship, is that unspoken that it might turn into a hop-on, hop-off kind of experience, Rachel?

Rachel: I think so. I think everybody is willing to share their knowledge. Even just before jumping on this phone call, I had an agent call me just to pick my brain. At the same time, I'm not necessarily expecting her to call me every time that she has a situation she runs into, but she knows that door is open. Likewise, if I run into a situation, I know that door is open. I think everybody's respectful of each other's times. It's a relationship that you understand once it's established.

Erin: Is there an importance, and we've spoken about this in previous episodes, especially as it pertains to working at home, working in an office, and all of the work that REALTORS® do, is it important to set boundaries in the mentor-mentee relationship? Have you found that, Nicole?

Nicole: I think that there is a respect that you have to form for each other and each other's time. There is definitely boundar,ies and barriers to how much you want to push someone into their personal time. I do find that if you're looking to start a mentor-mentee relationship, having a conversation, a coffee, starting somewhere with just an information interview, if you will, seeing if this is a person that has the time to be a mentor. Or you're a mentor, is this someone who is the right values alignment for you as a mentee? Because you have to build rapport, and you have to make sure that you're able to support what the needs are in either situation.

It can be challenging, especially, and I'm sure Rachel can speak to it, the real estate industry is cyclical. There's ebbs and flows there too, and people might be busy. If they're busy, they do really need to focus on their career in certain instances or their clients or their families and they may not have space, the capacity to be everything you need them to be in that moment. It's probably something short-lived if you have built a relationship with this person over time, but respecting that and understanding that they can't be everything to you all the time.

Rachel: Yes, I think Nicole hit the nail on the head with what she said, and I think accountability is also a huge one. Whether it's as a mentee, you want to know what's working, and then on the flip side, I would say that as a mentor, you want to know that what you're saying, the person's taking to heart, they're implementing certain portions into their day-to-day, and that you can see that there is growth. It's one thing to talk somebody through a situation, but then when they circle back, whether it's three, six, eight months later, you want to know that progress was made because if at a certain point, it just needs to go somewhere.

Nicole: Sometimes you have to be honest with yourself too. You may not be the resource they need. As a real estate agent or as association staff, we have a limited amount of expertise and we shouldn't be bridging into some of the professional guidance or information that needs to be probably communicated. Is this legal advice you should be seeking? Is this a different professional that should be weighing in here? I may not be the person that you need in this moment.

Erin: How do when you could use a mentor? Let me ask you that, and we'll start with you, Nicole.

Nicole: I think it's if you're at a pivotal moment where you have a decision to make or that you're stepping into an area where you're not familiar. You're joining a new brokerage, you're joining a new association, you are in a different type of client relationship, or maybe it's a piece of the market that you haven't really had experience in. I think that's when you should be looking for somebody to help you navigate a little bit and act as a sounding board. I think you'll know you're ready because you're going to be hopefully self-aware and able to say, "I am maybe not completely confident here.

This is an area that I want to put my right foot forward, I want to serve my clients well, I want to serve the members well," depending on your audience, "and to do so, I'm going to need some input, I'm going to need some support." You may not be reaching out to one person, you might be reaching out to quite a few to get a sampling of what you need to do because as a mentor as well, we have to be comfortable with people taking just what they need from us. They're looking for our opinion, they can't be expected to take everything. Maybe it won't work for them, but parts will.

Erin: Rachel, because you began at such a young age, often when we start something, we don't know what we don't know. How did that you needed a mentor, and then how did you go about getting one?

Rachel: When I started, I didn't have any connections. Confidence was low and obviously, you don't have the knowledge under your belt that the more experienced agents will have. It started off with little tidbits. You grow and you grow through the motions, but then you just get to a certain point where you're ready to take on more. I think Nicole summarized it very well. You just know when you're ready to get to that next level. I think the important part as an agent that's going through those baby steps is knowing how much you're willing to put in to get to that next level. There are times where you'll seek a mentor and they'll give you fantastic information, but you're just not ready to make that jump.

I think being honest with yourself of what your capacities are, what your knowledge is, and getting the information from a few different mentors, like Nicole said, and choosing what bits and pieces you are ready to implement. Maybe you put a little asterisk to refer to some notes of the future, and maybe you circle back to that person when you're ready to dive into that idea more in-depth. You know when you're ready to grow.

Erin: Yes, and as you point out, you can definitely have more than one mentor, so that's good. When we talk about sharing values, which is something that you have both brought up so far, what does that look like? Can we give some examples of what that might mean starting with you, Rachel?

Rachel: Sharing values, honestly, in my opinion, is probably the most important part you can have in terms of looking for a mentor. It's not necessarily that you need to share all of the same values with the mentor you choose, but you need to know what your values are and what the values are for your mentor in order to know how much information you are going to retain from them. Let's say we look at an agent who's one-on-one with their clients and very personable, and they like to have a say in the entire part of the process.

You can go towards a system-based and automation and template-based agent, somebody who really likes to have a lot of structure in their system, but you might go towards them to get mentorship towards how to be more efficient. In terms of how you're going to structure your career as a whole, how you're going to grow through maybe being a solo agent to being a team agent, the people that you're going to collaborate with, how you manage your time, that's a broader subject that you may look towards having a long-term mentor who shares the same values as you.

I think if you go towards a mentor who is successful with the values that you share, in the long run, you're probably going to have a much higher return of the information that they're sharing with you and that you can carry into your own world.

Erin: Nicole, how does that look to you, the sharing the same values?

Nicole: Yes, I think there's an importance in understanding what your top values are in your career. For me, I was looking to grow. I'm a learner just by interest, by personality, and I wanted somebody who is collaborative, somebody who's very transparent. I want to know the good, the bad, the ugly when it comes to how they navigate certain situations. I need somebody who's going to be really transparent with how they manage, how they rose through the system, how they rose through their career, and be really introspective about how they communicate with me so I can learn. If I can learn from the mistakes, the lessons, those are usually where the most growth is.

That is what I'd be looking for somebody who's very transparent, who's very collaborative, who's very open, and who has the time to dedicate to it, and they're also aligned with seeing the success of the industry, seeing the success of the association. Those are key to me.

Erin: Now, there's often the perception that working in real estate can really be quite isolating. When, of course, in reality, it's a large community of professionals working toward common goals, right? We all know that choosing a REALTOR® is such a personal choice, but the same goes for choosing a friend or a mentor. Can you share your experience with this decision-making process for you? Or maybe recommend how somebody who's watching or listening may want to approach it, especially if they're a little bit apprehensive. Rachel.

Rachel: When I first started in 2015, I started with a very small company. We're talking three to five agents at most, and that feels very isolating when you're looking to try and get a different opinion or a different perspective. I went looking to see who I could find that I could resonate with and maybe just get a, again, just a different opinion on how to navigate through certain situations. I remember it was my first year and I was about to submit an offer on this big agent's property. I gave him a call. I was obviously a bit apprehensive to ask him a few questions. Being greener, you don't totally know what direction to take things.

I remember he picked up and he was just the most friendly, genuine person, and just ready to give his time and get to know me in the industry as well. I remember hanging up the phone and saying, "That's the kind of agent that I want to be a few years down the line." Then at that point, we built a relationship, and even circling back to a few years ago, he was my first call when I was looking to transition brokerages. I really valued his perspective on the challenges that I was facing, what I was trying to overcome, and even transitioning from being a team agent to a solo agent. The doubts that I had in giving me confidence and metaphorically holding my hand through the process.

Yes, I think looking outwards and trying to find somebody who shares the same values like we touched on earlier and you'll know. When you find the right person, what they're saying speaks to you and really just treat that relationship with respect.

Erin: Okay, two questions. Did that house sale go through?

Rachel: It did.

Erin: Yay, okay. Is he still somewhat of a mentor to you now or has the relationship changed?

Rachel: He is still, yes. He's still very much my mentor and actually now as I'm transitioning into the next phase of my career, which would be a bit more leadership and less sales, he is definitely my go-to and he knows it. I would say that now that I have years of experience under my belt, he also circles back to me now and it's become a more collaborative relationship like we touched on earlier where he feels like he can gain different perspectives from me and sometimes he has doubts of his own and whether we circle back in person over the phone or sit down for a quick lunch, it's definitely become a reciprocal relationship.

Erin: That sounds wonderful. Wonderful. Okay, Nicole, can you share your experience with your decision-making process or recommend how somebody who might be a little on the fence or apprehensive about getting a mentor, how that would pan out?

Nicole: It's definitely something that you can either seek out. That's looking at people within the industry or within your spheres of your network and seeing something in them, whether it's an experience or they've reached a certain pinnacle in their career and that's where you're looking to go and you can seek them out. Then some of it is just falling into it. Often if it's somebody who's perhaps in a position of authority, so my first mentors were supervisors. They were people that I reported to. They were invested in me.

They wanted to see me grow and the slow constructive criticism or slow constructive feedback that happens with the day-to-day work, I would be ingesting that and I'd be trying to seek out how to do things a little bit better, how to take the next steps. Then slowly that rapport grew where I felt comfortable going to them and saying, "I really do want to learn how to do this. I see myself going here." That's where they were able to provide more strategic advice and say, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, here's where you need to go. Here's the courses you should be taking. Here's the people you should be speaking with."

Often, they're happy to facilitate setting up those meetups, those information coffee meetings where you can leverage the network they have to build to where you want to go. If you're feeling apprehensive and you're either seeking out or you're falling into a mentorship and you just want to expand what that mentorship looks like and just maybe test the waters to see if this is something that person is also interested in entering into with you, I would say just start with just an information session. This is where you just, "Hey, I'd like to take you for coffee and just pick your brain about something. Hey, I just wanted to touch base about this project or this article I saw or this deal that I'm doing."

It's just a one-off, but you're testing the waters to see how they respond and they're getting to know you and you're revealing a little bit more about what you want and where you want to go and you'll take it from there. You'll see if the values align, if the time that they have to dedicate to you is enough for what you need, and then you can formalize it a little bit more. If you're apprehensive, just start with something really organic and something where there's no ask. It's just an information exchange.

Erin: I'm glad you brought up the ask because we all have in our phones those calls that come up or texts and it's always from someone who only gets in touch when they need something. Is there a way for a mentee to give back to the mentor, even in the early stages, so that the mentor feels that they are also getting something out of this relationship besides just the good feeling of helping someone else to succeed? Or is that not in the expectations? I don't know, qhat do you think? Rachel.

Rachel: I would say it's definitely a give and take. Like I have a few newer agents now who are doing what I did in my first year and they'll circle back to me for information, for help in certain circumstances, but if I circle back to them and say, "Hey, I need somebody to help host an open house," or, "Could you help me with this walkthrough," or, "Could you help me with X, Y, Z," whatever it could be, they're always willing. Honestly, it's been a huge part in terms of me transitioning into the mentor role where I know that it's a reciprocal relationship. I know that I'm not just giving and never seeing this person ever again. It definitely helps to keep the motivation up because you're both gaining from each other.

It's not to say that you always have to gain from somebody, but it definitely shows their willingness. It shows that they're willing to constantly give back. Oftentimes, I would say that is a preface to knowing that when they get to the next level, they'll also be willing to help the person that's below them. It's just the gift that keeps on giving. Yes, I definitely think that you don't always have to have it be reciprocal, but it definitely helps both sides when it is.

Erin: Nicole, what do you think of that?

Nicole: I absolutely think that there can be a little bit of give and take. Certainly, we have, in the industry, created these forums where there is a bit of that. We have young professional networks or YPN, sometimes they're called your professional networks. We have them, anyway, in Ottawa at the local, provincial, and national levels where there is these YPNs that connect people who are looking to grow, looking to build a career in the industry, possibly looking at leadership roles in the industry on the volunteer side and connecting them with people who are also eager to see the success of the association of the real estate community and they're coming to provide exchange information, provide information.

I think that in those formats and in those forms, you can see that give and take because those newer agents are coming from careers outside of the industry and now coming into real estate can imbue some of the information that they're providing with their expertise, whether it's demographic information or new understandings of how technology works or different techniques. There's that old adage, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you absolutely can. We see at the YPN events, a mix of agents of all experience levels, ages, backgrounds. I think it's a great way to give and take.

Erin: Now, somebody watching or listening today might be going, "Hmm, maybe I would be a good mentor." What are some of the signs that you might be a good mentor? We'll start with you, Rachel.

Rachel: I think if you feel confident in something, and it could be anything. It could be that you are very strong with Google systems or it could be that you feel very confident how to prepare a listing or how to meet with clients in certain circumstances. You could approach your brokerage, let them know that this is something that you feel comfortable talking on and let them know that anytime an agent has a question in that subject, that your door is open. They can give you a call anytime. I think they would appreciate it. It gives a collaborative energy throughout the office or just throughout the industry in general.

On the flip side, if you see agents in passing, particularly the agents that might be a bit more green or have a different expertise level in that subject, you can let them know that your door or your phone is always open if they need a helping hand. Maybe, you never know, somebody could be apprehensive and may not want to reach out, but the fact that you took that first step and opened the door for them, they may just feel that much more comfortable reaching out to you when they need to.

Erin: Nicole, what would you suggest people look at inside themselves for signs that they might make a good mentor?

Nicole: I think part of it is just looking inside and saying, "Do I have the time to dedicate to this? Am I looking to be a part of the future of the industry? Do I want to have a part in how the industry grows in its success?" If the answer is yes to these questions, I think you'd be great to be a mentor. There's ways to seek it out. Obviously, we talked a lot about falling into mentorship, but I think a lot of the things that Rachel said is just putting it out there because people are going to be apprehensive. You have something to offer, but they may not know how best to seek it from you. It could be just also establishing yourself as a subject matter expert.

Being part of social media groups, being part of committees, being part of different aspects of the industry where you can carve out that space as a subject matter expert so people know to come to you. Because you might have some great skills and if people aren't aware that you have a rich career in commercial real estate or that you've come from a background in the finance industry and if they're having questions around investment and things like that, maybe you'd be a good mentor in those fashions. Setting yourself up, putting it out there, establishing yourself as a subject matter expert, and somebody who has the time and capacity to do this, I think those are key.

Erin: Nicole, you already mentioned some of the resources that particularly young people starting out can get into or join in. For somebody who hasn't yet been able to build a professional network, what resources should they look at in a local, provincial, or national level? Do you have some suggestions for us? Then we'll ask Rachel.

Nicole: Absolutely. I think there's a lot of resources that we've built out over the years. There's obviously the YPN networks at the local and the provincial, and then with the National Association, they've been providing resources to these networks to see them grow, to see them be able to offer more to the folks seeking out, not only mentorship but opportunities to network. Certainly, YPNs provide educational events, there's panels, there's speed mentorship dating, things like that are one-off events, but there's also often a forum where you can connect and find somebody who has self-identified as wanting to be a mentor and you can self-identify as wanting to be a mentee.

You can find the right person from this pool of people who are ready and willing. I think also depending on where you feel comfortable, but at your local association, getting in touch with the board, the staff can also help facilitate finding someone that might align with where you are and where you want to go. Our boards, our committees, they're full of people who have had successful careers and are now looking at giving back and they've proven that because they've dedicated time to the board and we can help you build those connections or at least connect initially, and then you can see where it goes from there.

Rachel: I think if you're within a brokerage that's able to provide that resource, then you're already in a good spot to start. I know within my brokerage, we actually have almost daily training sessions with what Nicole described as industry specialists. Somebody who is self-identified as being very strong in a certain subject and that already starts one good connection. Again, like Nicole mentioned, your local board, they can put you in touch. They'll know that this person sat on this panel and would probably be a good resource for you for a certain question.

I definitely think tapping into, on a small scale, your brokerage, and on a larger outside scale, tapping into your local network. If you're willing to take it higher than that, definitely into the provincial and national levels, you definitely have some great resources.

Erin: This idea of working together and lifting people up, that really does come through when we talk about mentorship in real estate. Now, Nicole, you've gained a lot of experience in your career first with CREA, then the London and the St. Thomas Association of REALTORS®, and now with the Ottawa Real Estate Board. How have mentors helped you along your journey?

Nicole: I was able to find mentors early in my career that have thankfully stuck with me to today and I still lean on them. They are still references that I've used to get those new positions, seek out those new opportunities. I think that I was able to find people early who saw something in me maybe I didn't even see in myself. They were the ones that initially put the challenges and opportunities in front of me. They gave me the push where I didn't have the confidence.

They said, "Let's try it out, see where you go, just give it a chance." Those are the people that I think really lean into the mentorship role in a way that you can see expand and help serve throughout the rest of your trajectory wherever you choose to go. When you're coming back and you're not sure what the next step is for you, maybe you're looking at jumping from one broker to another to seek new opportunities or moving into a new career, they're the ones that you can circle back to and say, "Hey, do any opportunities?" They're the ones that you can start speaking to identify what the next best thing could be or what the next step could be.

I've been very lucky to have those folks in my corner and those people have been able to stay with me through each one of those new chapters in my career.

Erin: I'd say they'd be lucky to have you in their corner too. How about you, Rachel? You have an impressive list of accolades under your belt, don't blush, being in the top 2% of agents in Canada with Royal LePage three years in a row. How has having a mentor as you began your career helped you to get to where you are today? Maybe even higher than you would have already gone. Who knows?

Rachel: Yes, definitely. I have to give a lot of credit to having the mentors along the way. I would say for myself, I'm the type of person who if a situation lands on my lap that I'm uncertain of, it will escalate very quickly in terms of stress levels. Having somebody that's a phone call away or that's a conversation away and a trusted resources has just been so significant. I would say that probably the biggest thing in terms of building your confidence is having a mentor that you trust on the other end of the phone just because every day you run into a new situation. You run into things you never thought would exist, but here you are, here's a situation.

Sometimes it's time-sensitive and there's a lot of money on the line and you really want to take care of your people, but there's certain circumstances where you just don't know what you don't know. Having somebody that you trust on the other end of the phone, be it small or big, could be a day-to-day task, just like it could be a major milestone moment in your career. Having those people around you is, I would say, everybody should try and have at least one mentor in their life, if not a few.

Erin: To be a mentee at the same time too. It seems like you can be both. It just seems to make sense because we never ever stop learning. Is that right, Nicole?

Nicole: That's right. Really, no matter what career you're in, whether you're on the real estate side, the association side, learning is a part of how you grow and how you thrive. This industry is evolving just so quickly as we can all attest to, whether it's on the technology side, the market, the market conditions. To stay up to speed and competitive in these times requires you to be tapping into those networks, learning, being a self-learner, identifying what you don't know, and then seeking it out where you can. I think it's a great trait to have. I think a lot of our mentors, my mentors anyway, they have that same value system, they have that same expectation.

They're learning as I'm learning and they're able to bestow down what they're synthesizing from what they're learning. That's a benefit to me and I can also provide that service going back up.

Erin: I'm curious about both your perspectives on this one, but I'm going to start with you, Rachel. What would you say are some important tips or considerations when it comes to real estate mentorship?

Rachel: I think a good mentee definitely carries a certain sense of accountability for themselves, knowing, again, like we spoke earlier, the metric of their success levels, knowing themselves well, how much work are you willing to put in, respect for their mentor, being open to new ideas. I think a lot of us have a certain direction we want to take it, but realizing that there's not just one way to reach one end result. Just being flexible in the type of information we're willing to receive and being open to different perspectives.

Nicole: I think Rachel hit the nail on the head. It's really just being honest with yourself. What do you want to get out of this? Then putting in the time and effort, listening, being attentive. It's okay to disagree with what somebody is telling you. You get to choose, it's your career, what you want to take and what you want to cast away, but making sure that if you're asking somebody for their time and we're all busy, we all have families, that you are willing to move forward and at least take what they're saying and put it into motion in some sense so that there is that return in value.

Erin: Are there things that you've encountered during your day and thought, "Oh, I went over this with my mentor"? Does that ever come back to you like that? Is it the gift that keeps giving? What do you think, Rachel?

Rachel: I would say probably my most significant lesson that I've learned from a mentor along the way, and it was probably my first week in real estate, and it was try and keep a paper trail of almost everything. You don't know when you're going to need it and it makes for a lot of emails, but when you do need it, you are going to be very happy it's there.

Nicole: It's your insurance of happy.

Rachel: Yes.

Erin: It's a virtual paper trail, right?

Rachel: Yes, exactly. That is something I've carried in my back pocket through the years and it saved me more than once. I would definitely say that that's probably the smallest one-liner that has carried me through my career.

Erin: That's fascinating. Anything like that pop to your mind, Nicole?

Nicole: Yes, I also have a one-liner. It's funny how the one-liners stick with you, but it's sometimes you have to move out to move up. Sometimes you've outgrown the role. What you're seeking next, you're going to have to leave what's comfortable, what you know to gain the breadth or depth of experience that you need to take that next step. For me, I was working at the Canadian Real Estate Association here and I wanted to make that leap to more of a leadership role, but I needed more depth in the housing space within the leadership space.

That's where I moved up, I moved out, and I was happy to come back to the real estate community bringing what I learned from these experiences and other places that then I can take and use it to better the industry we have here, the REALTOR® community, and my board at the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: Okay, those are two great one-liners, if you will. It all comes back to one main point, it seems, after this great conversation with you both, which is having a tight-knit community. Why do you both feel this is so crucial to a striving industry? We'll go back to you, Nicole.

Nicole: I think it's having a tight-knit group that can serve as your sounding board. It can provide you with the feedback you need, whether it's constructive or whether it's supportive. You need a little bit of both probably. Then that also allows you to build out a network. It starts with a small group, and then hopefully, it organically grows to their networks, to folks that they know, to people that they trust.

Because if you trust somebody within that close circle and they have a trusted relationship with someone and you need a lawyer, a mortgage broker, you need somebody with experience in this, that, and the other, a recommendation from someone in that tight-knit group, that's going to be held with so much more esteem. You build the small group, and then you expand the network, and hopefully, between those two things, you have the building blocks, the infrastructure for a really strong and successful career.

Erin: You, Rachel, why do you think that having a tight-knit community is just so important to a thriving industry?

Rachel: I think that confident, pleasant agents just make for confident, educated clients. At the end of the day, it's a collaborative industry. We're going to cross paths at one point or another. If that can be a positive experience, we're all going to be better for it. I think that the stronger the industry is as a whole, and that can be through transfer of knowledge and mentorship, the better we're all going to be for it. I don't think there's really anything we can lose.

Erin: Okay, so what's next? You're both enjoying thriving careers so far, but obviously, there's so much more to come for you both. What are you hoping to achieve? We'll start with you, Rachel.

Rachel: I'm pretty happy with my sales career. I really can't say anything about that, but the next challenge that I've given myself is stepping into more of a leadership role. Leadership, communication. I've looked towards people within the real estate industry and outside of the real estate industry to try and help me navigate these new waters and become more confident in the information that I can pass down and different structures. Yes, definitely the leadership side.

Erin: For you, Nicole, what's the future hold for you?

Nicole: Oh, that's a great question. I'm relatively new here at the Ottawa Real Estate Board, so I am getting settled. It's been about three months, but what I'm looking to do and what I know the board is hoping is that we can establish ourselves and grow the vision we have as being all things real estate in Ottawa. Serving the members, being a voice in the community on housing, real estate, making sure that people in Ottawa, citizens have a resource when it comes to their housing needs. That's something that I look forward to building and growing here at the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: Congratulations on your new position, by the way, and good luck to you. Good luck to you as well, Rachel. Let me just end with this question. If somebody watching or listening leaves with one thing about this conversation, Rachel, what do you hope it is?

Rachel: I think once you're really ready to put in the hard work and find the people that align well with you and everything else should fall into place.

Erin: Nicole?

Nicole: I would say successful people have a lineup of people behind them that help them get there. If you're looking to be successful, start building out that network so you have the folks behind you to help propel you all the way through.

Erin: Sounds great. We thank you both for your time and your experience and wish you both all the best in the future. Can't wait to see what's next. Thank you.

Nicole: Thank you.

Rachel: Thank you.

Erin: Thank you, again, Nicole and Rachel for that insightful and inspiring conversation. The benefits of real estate mentorship are clearly long lasting, and you never know when the connections you make will circle back around to help you in the future. Now, if you're wondering where to start, reach out to your local board or association to see if they have any programs on the go or they could point you in a direction that you may not have considered. Of course, if you liked this episode and we hope you did, please tell us by giving us a rating or review us on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Erin Davis and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Exploration into turning REALTOR.ca into a for-profit subsidiary of CREA has included the most comprehensive due-diligence process undertaken in CREA history.. It’s about keeping REALTORS® at the forefront, looking at how this invaluable tool could be better leveraged to serve members, and addressing changing consumer needs. The proposed path forward is outlined in REALTOR.ca Forward: the draft business case for REALTOR.ca as a taxable entity.

Understandably, the discussion has sparked curiosity from members.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Janice Myers, CREA CEO, and James Mabey, CREA Chair, answer common questions regarding the draft business case and what the transformation could mean for REALTORS®.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Hi there. This isn't the first time that we have dedicated an episode to a discussion about REALTOR.ca and what's next for its future. Well, for today's conversation, we're doing something a little bit different. Before we look ahead, we're going to peel back the curtains a bit, and I guarantee you'll learn something about REALTOR.ca you didn't already know. I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME. For today's conversation, we're joined by CREA's CEO Janice Myers, and the chair of the 2024-25 CREA Board of Directors, James Mabey, who's also a broker owner from Edmonton, Alberta. Welcome both to REAL TIME.

James Mabey: Thanks so much for having us, Erin.

Janice Myers: Pleasure to be here.

Erin: Thank you. Now in Canada, if you're someone who has any interest in real estate, there's a very good chance that you have heard of REALTOR.ca. And we know that because of the market share. So how did REALTOR.ca come to be? And we'll start with you, James.

James: That's a great question, Erin, and something that we're very proud of at CREA. So historically, of course REALTOR.ca started as MLS.ca and that was way back in 1995 when a group of associations and boards came together to create a single source for listing information for consumers. And because it's a trusted source for Canadian consumers, it has become, of course, wildly popular and meets the needs of buyers and sellers, but also REALTOR® members across the country.

Janice: And I would add to that that, you know, the success has come from that initial collaboration of boards and associations, the community across Canada and and the strategic foresight that those people had to and REALTORS®, of course, had to create REALTOR.ca. And it is really, truly the envy of, of and a prime example of collaboration. It's the envy of the world. So we're very fortunate to have it.

Erin: You would ask a question that would kind of bring to light just what REALTOR.ca is. When you talk with new members. Janice, tell us about those sort of off the cuff but very insightful conversations.

Janice: Well, REALTOR.ca would come up in the context of talking about MLS, the MLS trademark, and what MLS systems are and when. I'd have a group of new REALTORS® just starting in the business, we'd talk about the three pillars of the MLS and what an MLS system is with respect to the data, etc. and then REALTOR.ca would come into the conversation and I'd say, well, so what is REALTOR.ca? It's not the MLS system. And then we talk through, oh yeah, it's the consumer portal. And everybody knew of REALTOR.ca. And when I would say to them that is your industry owned consumer portal. And every single board and association sends data to REALTOR.ca, which is managed by CREA. They would be very impressed.

Erin: I guess so, and it is obvious that this tool has resonated with Canadians. But did its success come as a surprise?

Janice: I guess in a way, I mean, I don't think that everybody thought that, you know, that collaboration, that initial collaboration was going to be so successful. But then the CREA team really worked hard to build it and maintain it and build it into the incredible market share that we have today. And that's really what we want to continue.

Erin: Yeah, anything but an overnight success. It is built and built and built. But what was the initial impact for REALTORS®? James.

James: Um, I think that's a really important thing because it gets at the heart of why we are re-examining REALTOR.ca. The initial impact of having a portal, a single portal for consumers to access MLS listing data was that it really helped members to make sure that their listings were front and center, and that they weren't competing for eyeballs. Even when I started in real estate 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Almost part of me. I know I look fresh faced, but it's been almost 20 years. You know, you were competing for eyeballs. You were spending a lot of money on advertising to reach consumers in newspapers and print advertising. You know, that has largely gone by the wayside because of things like the internet. And consumers demand to be able to access all of the information in one place online. And that was really the secret sauce of MLS that became REALTOR.ca, and has really put downward pressure on the costs to our members to compete for those eyeballs and make sure that their listings are getting full exposure.

Erin: Yeah. For sure. I mean, $310 seems like a steal of a deal for exposure like that.

Janice: For sure. And not all of that $310 a year goes to supporting REALTOR.ca Approximately 43% of those dues go to support REALTOR.ca. But we are in an incredibly competitive environment when it comes to technology. Consumer expectations continue to shift and change, and we want to make sure that this primary asset continues to grow and innovate for members.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. There's no resting on your laurels at all because the internet has come such a long way since 2008. And has that changed? REALTOR.ca's mission or goals?

James: You know, Erin, it really hasn't changed the mission or goals because, you know, it was created again to create value for members. And that has never changed. But what has changed is how consumers' expectations have increased and the demands on the system have increased. And so, you know, REALTOR.ca has evolved over the years. You know, we have Android and Apple apps. We have the web based experience or desktop based experience. We've moved to a mapping search tool as opposed to drop down menus. So there's been incredible innovation to try and keep up with consumers' demands of the site. And of course, that is a very expensive process to go through. And every time we have to retool REALTOR.ca, we take that very seriously. And faced with what's coming now with artificial intelligence, I mean, that's going to reshape the way that consumers search the internet. And so, you know, with a finite resource like member dues fueling REALTOR.ca, that creates a bit of a problem for the Canadian Real Estate Association to make sure that the tool stays competitive and keeps that market share. That really allows our members to save money as they transact across the country.

Erin: Yeah. And of course, it bears mentioning that this is a not for profit environment, too, when you're talking about the costs of keeping up with everything and staying ahead of everything as you have.

Janice: And we and the team have done an incredible job, there's no doubt about it. But there's so much more, as James has said, that we can do. We need to build on what consumers are expecting in the portal world, some deeper insights into properties looking to provide more consumer insights. A better educated consumer will connect with a REALTOR®. And so these are the types of things that we're looking at that we need to continue to evolve the platform.

Erin: Yes. And it's not just popularity that has grown, but the market share from 25 to 48%. That is incredible. So how has that aligned with changing REALTOR® business needs as well?

James: You know, I think that the online lead world has evolved in quite a long way. So there's a fraction of transactions compared to the number of actual leads that are generated online. And more and more, our members are demanding transaction ready consumers. They're expecting warm leads, better leads. They don't want quantity. In fact, sometimes we struggle to make sure that consumers are getting the response that they desire from our sight and from our members, because the leads aren't seen as being as warm or as good. As for, say, a handshake and a referral from a past client or somebody that you know is in your sphere of influence. And so with that changing landscape, we really just want to make sure that the website is delivering for both consumers and for the members. And that takes constant innovation. And we know we're struggling a little bit with, for instance, younger demographics, people who are new to Canada, people who are just familiar with the REALTOR® brand and with REALTOR.ca specifically. And so it's really important that we continue to keep that up. Innovation will take us a good chunk of the way, but we also just have to make sure we're listening to people, consumers and members to make sure that the site is as good as it possibly can be.

Janice: REALTOR.ca really, really does exist to connect consumers with REALTORS®, and it's all about anticipating those needs and filling that gap so that those, as James pointed out, those sort of ready consumers are there to connect with REALTORS®.

Erin: The listening that you referred to just a moment ago is so important, especially when there's so much more noise in today's online landscape. So what does make REALTOR.ca unique?

Janice: Well, you know, the collaboration between boards and associations that fuels the power of REALTOR.ca to see it be successful. That is really, as James has said a few times, the secret sauce to REALTOR.ca's success. The fact that pretty much every single listing that is put onto an MLS system in Canada feeds up to REALTOR.ca. That does not exist anywhere else in the world. And we were. We are extremely fortunate. So you have that and your and the successful sort of initiatives that the CREA team has undertaken to support REALTOR.ca has led to this incredible market share and one that we want to maintain with some very well-funded competitors coming on the scene. We need to make sure that it remains the primary business asset for our REALTORS® in Canada.

James: And I think it's important to note as well, that REALTOR.ca is a REALTOR®-centric environment. So it's an environment that's designed to bring consumers together with REALTORS®. But again, it's meant to do so in a way that is really member-centric. And that's quite different from a lot of the competitors in the portal space that, you know, really make their money on the backs of agents. So we want to make sure that we remain true to that, that that's always central to the platform. And so I think that it's really important that the portal has really moved from a search-based tool to a research-based tool. And so what I mean by that is that the consumer journey starts a lot before they're actually ready to transact. And so REALTOR.ca is a lot of people's favourite pastime. It's where they explore real estate and shop for real estate. And so, you know, we want to make sure that that's a friendly environment. And so the depth of data is really important. Consumers expect more, you know, the breadth again we're covering the entire marketplace across the country, which Janice already mentioned is super unique. And we've also had an increased focus on making sure that we maintain transparency for consumers, because that also is part of what they are expecting these days. And I think that that's part of the REALTOR® brand as well, is making sure that there is transparency to consumers and that it's not just the deepest source of data, but it's the most trusted source of data.

Erin: And it would seem to reason that a better educated consumer will connect with a REALTOR®, but that can't come without a cost, right?

Janice: There's always more money to spend on all sorts of innovations that will help with that connection.

James: Yeah. You know, members are constantly looking for ways to, of course, prospect for business. And, you know, there's nothing that REALTOR® likes more than sitting at a kitchen table with a buyer or seller, helping them to, you know, make the largest investment of their lives and trying to chart a path forward. And REALTOR.ca has become a really important part of that conversation, whether it's your buyers or sellers, that you've got a place where they can really explore the market and also see that their listing is getting that full exposure. And you know that, again, it's about meeting consumer expectations. And that's a constantly moving target.

Erin: From year to year. I could appreciate that the source of funding could be both finite and fluctuating. Is that about right?

James: That's actually exactly right. It's entirely accurate. And we actually have just seen the first ever reduction in the number of members in the country. And so when we have all of our eggs in one basket, i.e. relying on member dues to fund REALTOR.ca and the Canadian Real Estate Association. That means that you start to have to prioritize things. You can't do all things you know that would allow the site to generate the leads that members are expecting to generate, the quality of leads members are expecting, and also to meet consumer expectations in an environment where, as you pointed out, there's a finite amount of resources. And so, you know, I've served on the technology committee, I've been on this board of directors for a number of years, and it's always a situation where you're trying to make sure that it has the appropriate resources, and it's a prioritization exercise, and we can only imagine. And I think it's important we do imagine what is possible in an environment where there isn't scarcity, you know, where we can really empower the team that's running REALTOR.ca in a new enterprise to move forward and to really not just deliver but exceed expectations.

Erin: And as you examine the impact of decision making for things like new features and priorities. Can you see any areas where we're falling short? Janice.

Janice: We've certainly done an excellent job of getting to the market share that we have, and it's really about maintaining and growing that market share for the benefit of our members. And you know, we, I mean, the research has shown that we're extremely trusted by a certain demographic my age. And the younger people aren't necessarily loyal to one portal over another. And so it is a challenge to continue to get the eyeballs on REALTOR.ca. And there's just so much more that we can do if we have more resources fueling REALTOR.ca.

Erin: Well, can't CREA allocate more funds to REALTOR.ca to help address these areas? Janice.

Janice: You know, there's only a certain amount that we can do with a finite amount of resources. And also, as James has pointed out, we've experienced our first decline in membership in quite some time. And so the balancing of priorities beyond REALTOR.ca, of course, CREA was created as an advocacy organization, and the successes that we've had in that area are really important, particularly in this time of a housing crisis in Canada. The reputation of REALTORS®, professionalism, those are all the things that CREA stands for as well as REALTOR.ca. So, you know, to answer your question directly, there would need to be much more. And this is what's in the business case, is a significant increase in dues to even maintain our status quo over the next few years. So the business case goes through that carefully. What would be the effect on membership dues to maintain the status quo and then what is possible, which is really exciting. If REALTOR.ca were put into a taxable entity and allowed to grow and thrive those revenues.

James: And I think it bears saying as well that the status quo option with a large member dues increase, but that wouldn't allow for the kind of innovation that we're talking about needing in order to be competitive in the marketplace. And so there is a big distinction there to be drawn as well between these two options, where one is essentially maintaining a platform, but probably seeing market share erode versus one where we are reinvesting in that platform and able to do so at scale.

Erin: So speaking of revenue generation, this is something that we've talked about in previous episodes. The case for REALTOR.ca as a taxable entity. And you just released REALTOR.ca Forward – the draft business case. So what is the purpose of the report? Janice, you go first.

Janice: Well, there's the main purpose of the report, which is a business case that lays out two scenarios. One is staying the same and what we call the status quo, and the other is moving forward. And that's what REALTOR.ca Forward is all about. So it signals a lot of careful due diligence by a member driven REALTOR.ca task force, along with the CREA board and experts like PricewaterhouseCoopers. And this is the most comprehensive due diligence process that CREA has ever undertaken in its history to make sure that this is a viable future for REALTOR.ca. So the idea is to look at whether this is a viable opportunity, which the business case clearly points out that it is. And the goal of the report is to prepare an alternative to help reduce the pressure on those member dues and continue to have REALTOR.ca thrive and provide that value back to members.

James: I'm really proud of the work that went into producing this business case. You know, we had so many volunteers involved, and as Janice pointed out, a lot of excellent outside consultations. But, you know, the thing I want to remind our members of, the members who haven't been involved in these discussions, is that we recognize that REALTOR.ca is probably the premier asset of Canadian REALTORS®, and we take it very seriously. You know what we're doing here. It's so important that we get this right. And so, you know, we've been engaging with our boards and associations as well as the members on the street to make sure that they have a say and an opportunity to chime in before we present a final business case to the boards and associations, to the voting delegates at a special general meeting.

Erin: So paint us all a picture, would you? Why the need for a taxable entity? James, I'll hand it back to you for this one first.

James: This is a really important point. So we've had a lot of advice, obviously, from outside counsel, from tax counsel, that there is significant risk to the Canadian Real Estate Association by pursuing different types of revenue. So it's the source and type of revenue that really generates risk to our not-for-profit tax status. And so it's not about whether this new entity is profitable or not. It's actually about the revenues that are generated that create this risk. And so that's why, you know, the vehicle that's being proposed here is a taxable entity. And that's really to mitigate that risk for the Canadian Real Estate Association going forward.

Janice: Yeah. And I would just add that when people hear taxable or for profit, which has sometimes been used, people think that there's going to be money made and what's going to happen with that money? And one of the most important key principles of this is that any excess revenue in any given year is reinvested back into the platform that's actually baked into all the proposed governance documents. So the revenue reinvestment is key. And the fact that it would be a wholly owned subsidiary of CREA and REALTORS® would continue to own REALTORS.ca through their membership in CREA. So it's a wholly owned taxable subsidiary, revenue reinvestment back into the platform. And then the third thing is governance excellence, in which it would have its own board of directors. And that would be the third component. And these were all agreed to by boards and associations before we even went down the road of developing a business case.

Erin: Will CREA membership dues decrease as a result? Janice?

Janice: Well, the business case lays out in the second scenario, it lays out a transition period of about ten years where revenues would ramp up. And the business case examines five key revenue streams And during the time over that ten years, the the percentage of dues that go to support REALTOR.ca would decline from about 43% down to 25%. And so it's not that that would be a dues reduction, but that that portion of that $310 per year would come back or stay with CREA proper to grow the advocacy and the professionalism and the reputation pillars of what CREA is. It's important that CREA continue on behalf of members.

Erin: I'll let either of you answer this as you see fit, but can you walk us through the five key revenue streams? Would you do that?

James: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that members are always keen to know exactly how we would generate these revenues. And so it's important to note that we actually examined about 30 different revenue opportunities. And they were prioritized based on a set of guiding principles. But the five that were shortlisted by a subcommittee of the REALTOR.ca Task Force were advertising revenue from non listing pages, expanding the pricing and the opportunities through the Data Distribution Facility, or the DDF, which members would be familiar with. We also have an opportunity to create a tools marketplace, so we've vetted apps and vendors that our members are already buying services from, and created an environment where that would be available through REALTOR.ca so that members can access those services, which would create some margin dollars for CREA. We already have a really valuable tool called the Insights Report, that members would also be familiar with and the insights that are gathered through REALTOR.ca. And this isn't from the actual data that we use to power REALTOR.ca, but rather the way that people are actually using the tool to search through properties and the trends and patterns that evolve through that. There is an opportunity to create a product for those kinds of data insights for non-REALTOR® members. And last but certainly not least, is the opportunity for us to generate leads for third-party service providers like mortgage and insurance. So those are the five that have been identified in the business case, and there's more depth on each one of those in the business case. So I definitely recommend REALTORS® review that report, which is of course available through our member portal.

Erin: All right. Great recommendation. Thank you. And we kept track. You did all five. Thank you James. So the broader question is what's in it for REALTORS®? Janice.

Janice: You've hit the nail on the head. What is it in it for REALTORS®? Well, some of the things that we've touched on are the ability to have a better educated consumer, we could improve the leads just in terms of the quality of the leads. And we know that this is of great importance to REALTORS®, having that significant marketplace that consumers will continue to trust and go to actually elevates the brand of REALTORS® as well. So I would say there's a lot of things overall that's in it for REALTORS® to maintain REALTORS® market position and to continue to innovate the platform.

James: As a member myself, you know, I'm really looking forward to three things. One, that I continue to get absolutely amazing value for my membership dues, because of course, we'll have a diversity of revenue streams that will help to maintain the funding of REALTORS® without compromising what I'm also getting for the rest of my career products and services. We also have that ability to make sure that I've still got exposure for my listings. So, maintaining that market share so that I don't have to invest in other platforms or tools to reach consumers with the listing content that I want to push through from my MLS system, and also a better user experience for both REALTORS® and consumers and so I know that REALTORS® across this country will understand when I say this. When you receive a lead through REALTOR.ca currently and it just says, “I'd like more information about this listing”, and you know that all the person had to do was click a button to get that to pop up and come into your inbox. You don't treat the lead as valuable as it needs to be treated. And so, you know, things like the ability to customize a lead form, things that will, again, be small tweaks that require investment and retooling those things will become possible. And so even more of the feedback we receive from consumers, but also from REALTORS®, will be able to be implemented into a tool that really delivers on my expectations as a member.

Erin: With REALTOR.ca becoming its own entity, does that change how CREA will operate or what its mission will be? James.

James: No, Erin, it doesn't. So the Canadian Real Estate Association has always existed to make sure that members are well served from coast to coast to coast. And our 160,000 REALTORS® across this country really depend on us for much more than REALTOR.ca. So that's only a part of our third strategic pillar, which is REALTOR® and consumer technology, which encompasses a few other things as well. But there's also two other really important functions that CREA performs. And Janice had alluded to them earlier. One is advocating with the federal government. So CREA is in a unique position, of course, to make sure that the housing file during a housing crisis is absolutely actioned by the government in a way that is beneficial to consumers and to REALTORS® and of course, upholding the REALTOR® reputation. When I put my REALTOR® pin on every morning, you know, it's important to remember that that means something because the Canadian Real Estate Association enforces the REALTOR® code, and that we have members that are subscribing to that high level of professionalism. So there's so much more that CREA does. And I would additionally point out that just because REALTOR.ca would be spun out into this taxable entity doesn't mean that CREA still wouldn't provide that oversight of REALTOR.ca on an ongoing basis, which is still a really important function.

Janice: Absolutely. Yeah. We want to make sure that REALTOR.ca continues to meet the needs of both members and consumers. It's a balancing act, and I would say that our work in advocacy is even more important in this environment. We believe everyone deserves a place to call home and that it offers dignity and belonging. And there's a lot of work along the entire housing continuum to make sure that that happens.

Erin: I know that we've only scratched the surface here today, but if we could, let's fast forward a year from now, what would you hope to be saying to REALTORS® if we were to do a follow up episode? Janice.

Janice: Wow, that's a really great question. I would hope to be saying, look at the growth that REALTOR.ca has undertaken for your benefit and look at the increased market share. I would love to see even more market share. And I would love for us to see action on the housing file at all levels of government. We know that we can't solve the housing crisis in silos. We need to collaborate with all levels of government. So those are the main things, and I would hope that we all continue to be extremely proud. As James pointed out, about the step that we have taken to ensure that REALTORS® primary business asset remains the top of mind for consumers and that we protect it on behalf of members.

Erin: Am I missing anything here? Because to me, it seems there's just no downside for REALTORS®. Only two upsides. James.

James: I agree with you, Erin. I think that there's only upside for REALTOR® members. And, you know, one of the things that the task force and the board have been really careful about is making sure that we're really conservative with our projections. So in a year's time, I would love to be able to tell members that it has actually outperformed our conservative numbers that we've used to sort of make the business case, and that there's even a higher degree of reinvestment back into REALTOR.ca. And I'd love to just talk to members here and say, aren't you thrilled with the way that this site is now delivering for you? And what else do you want us to do with it? Because at that point, we'll have the capacity to really be able to make sure that it is as good as our members deserve.

Janice: It's a pretty exciting time. It's an exciting time, Erin. It really is. Mhm.

Erin: And if REALTORS® are listening to and watching this, only take one thing away from this conversation today, what do you hope it is? We'll start with you, Janice.

Janice: That CREA is going to innovate on your behalf and make sure that you, your primary business asset, is protected and maintained and and grows.

James: I hope we've piqued people's interest. And what I'd really like for them to do is to actually go through the business case and engage with their elected leaders at their local board or associations, so that those folks feel empowered to come to Ottawa, potentially later this year and really dig into the conversation, have a great outcome and allow us to move forward.

Erin: Thank you. Thank you to you both for making the time to join us on REAL TIME and enlightening us even more about what REALTOR.ca is, and the value that it delivers to our REALTOR®, viewers and listeners. We so appreciate it and best of luck to you both.

Janice: Thank you.

James: Thank you Erin.

Erin: See, I told you you'd learn something. This conversation with Janice and James certainly shed light on the future of REALTOR.ca, especially regarding the REALTOR.ca Forward report. Value remains at the forefront of REALTOR.ca mission, making sure REALTORS® and consumers have the best experience possible. I'm so glad we got to learn more about how that value will continue for years to come. And of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or a review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for listening and watching. I'm Erin Davis. And we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

It’s no secret that Canada is facing a housing crisis. The country is in need of programs and strategies to help build more homes that meet people where they are. It’s a national issue that requires collaboration from all leaders, politically and otherwise.

The Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, is our guest on this episode of REAL TIME, where we discuss Canada’s housing supply goals, where we can draw inspiration from, and how REALTORS® can be part of solutions.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Canada is in a housing crisis. The country is in need of programs and actions to help build more homes that meet people where they are. It's a national issue that requires collaboration from all leaders, politically and otherwise, to help ensure everyone has a home.

Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and this is REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Today, we are joined by the Honorable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, to talk about Canada's housing supply goals, the challenges we are facing to make them a reality, and how REALTORS® can be part of the solution. Minister Fraser, thank you for being here today.

Minister Sean Fraser: Thanks so much for the opportunity to connect. Looking forward to it.

Erin: The natural place to start is the state of the housing crisis in Canada. 5.8 million homes are needed to be built by 2030 to help restore affordability and address supply. What is currently in place to help with the development and affordability of housing in Canada, both now and in the shorter term?

Minister Fraser: Look, thanks very much for the question. Depending on who you ask, you're going to get a range of different estimates on exactly what it's going to take to cure the supply gap. The one thing I think everybody agrees on is we need to build more homes. The housing plan that we've put out just in April of this year seeks to do that in three keyways. The first is to reduce the cost of building homes. The second is to make it easier to build homes. The third is to adopt new strategies when it comes to the way that we actually build them. Let's dig in a little bit on what that means.

To reduce the cost, what we've tried to do is look in our own backyard to figure out what we can do as a federal government to directly reduce the cost of housing.

We have removed the GST from new apartment construction and changed capital cost allowances to reduce taxes on home builders, and we're starting to see that have an impact.

We also create low-cost financing programs, such as the Apartment Construction Loan Program, or something new that's coming up to build accessory dwelling units to get more supply into the market, which is particularly helpful during a high-interest rate environment.

We've got a big project on the go that we'll have more to say about, I think, in this conversation, including the use of public lands to build more homes.

In addition, we need to incentivize solutions at other levels of government, including zoning and permitting reforms, and, of course, embracing new technologies when it comes to building houses more quickly, such as factory-built homes. There's no silver bullet. If it were easy to solve, smarter people than me would have decades before. The reality is there's a number of levers at our disposal that can help build out that supply, which is essential if we're going to cure the supply gap and ultimately resolve a reasonable level of affordability in the housing market in Canada.

Erin: The existing programs are certainly a great step forward, but we also need to acknowledge that the reality is hitting those housing supply goals is a difficult task. We've heard some rhetoric around development cost charges. Minister, can you fill us in on how or if those are affecting our ability to not only build homes, but build affordable homes?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. I've got a particular perspective on development cost charges. For those who may not be familiar with the issue, it's a tool that municipalities use to raise revenue. In my view, it's one that does so fairly inefficiently because it raises all the revenue on new housing. When you increase the cost of something, you tend to get less of it or you get some of it with a higher price point.

From my perspective, it risks both impacting the housing output goals that we've set as a government and the housing affordability goals, because developers, despite the fact I believe most of them are in it for the right reasons, want to help provide solutions, they're also running businesses. We can't expect that businesses who incur larger costs simply to eat all of those costs. Now, to a degree, community versus community, it may happen in some and not in others. What we're trying to do is to understand, why are municipalities feeling the need to increase development cost charges? I don't believe it's because any community wants to increase the cost of housing. It's because municipalities are cash-strapped. We need to deal with the very real challenges that cities are facing in this country when it comes to now dealing with the costs of certain services that traditionally may have fallen within, particularly at the provincial level of government, including community housing, including dealing with homelessness in their communities.

When you have municipalities incur these increased costs and they have limited access to revenue tools, they go in the areas where they think they have some political space to play.

The solution is going to be to increasing, from other orders of government, the level of investment in infrastructure that currently development cost charges are being used to build out. We've put $6 billion on the table for housing-enabling infrastructure. In order to access it, we said, "You have to freeze your development cost charges."

For those who don't wish to abide by those terms, we have created a new product through the Canada Infrastructure Bank that will provide lower-cost financing to build out that infrastructure, but we want to ensure that if you're going to be using federal dollars to build out municipal infrastructure, you're not simultaneously increasing the cost to housing in your community.

Development cost charges are one of the hurdles we need to overcome. We're seeking to do that by tying access to federal infrastructure money to policies around freezing the cost of development cost charges when that policy was released in April of this year.

Erin: What are some of the frustrations that you're feeling in regards to hitting the housing supply target?

Minister Fraser: There's no shortage of things to become frustrated about, but I try to focus on the opportunities that we have to make a difference. That said, there are certain potential obstacles that we're going to need to overcome, that the impact of our policies remains to be seen. Now we're starting to see very good output when it comes to building permits, for example. We have seen some encouraging numbers when it comes to the latest data from CMHC on housing starts in the month of May of this year. If I look forward two, three years, and I ask myself what bottlenecks are we potentially going to hit if we can't resolve them today, the productive capacity of the Canadian economy is one of the very serious obstacles I think we're going to need to overcome.

We're producing homes close to the record level of production, but when I talk to builders in different markets in Canada, some are already experiencing a labor shortage that's preventing them from growing their home-building capacity. We also see an opportunity to overcome this not just by training the next generation of Canadian workers, but by incentivizing new construction methodologies that pull from a different labor pool, specifically modular housing, penalization, mass timber, potentially even 3D printing, that don't necessarily rely on the same pool of skilled tradespeople that traditional home builders may. By bringing in new solutions, we can overcome that obstacle.

The other piece that is a big question mark is the involvement of other levels of government. I think the federal government can say sincerely, "We've put our hand up and want to play a leadership role, but we need others to join the fight."

Province to province, the ambition and appetite for change varies significantly. We can't do this alone. We'll need provincial governments and municipalities pulling in the same direction.

The third and final, potentially the most important bottleneck, is capital. Making sure we're creating an opportunity for money to come into the housing sector by creating a set of circumstances that makes it more appealing to invest in Canadian home building than it does for investors who may be targeting industries in different parts of the world.

Crowding in that private capital, working with provinces, and growing the productive capacity of the Canadian home-building workforce are the three big things that I believe will pose a bottleneck if we don't sort out the policy solutions today that will reveal themselves over the next few years.

Erin: Minister, you used the term "legalize housing" last fall and it left some people curious. What did you mean by legalize housing?

Minister Fraser: This is not a concept that I've invented. This is something that becomes readily apparent to you when you start to engage in the obstacles to getting more homes built today. Thankfully, we've legalized a lot more housing than was the case even six, eight months ago.

What I meant when I used the phrase legalized housing was simply to point out that most kinds of houses are not legal to build as of right in most communities in Canada or in most neighborhoods in Canada. There's a lot of restrictions on what you can build and where you can build it. For example, a lot of suburban neighborhoods, frankly, a lot of neighborhoods altogether make it impossible to build a small apartment if you don't go and get a zoning change or a special exemption at your local council. That process can add months, sometimes years to the process of just getting an answer saying, "Yes, you are allowed to build the thing."

By the time you actually get permission to build it, when you have that lengthy process of getting an approval, the math that justified your investment in the first place may no longer take hold. We've seen this in a significant number of communities across Canada as we've dealt with a challenging interest rate environment over the past few years. A lot of projects that were approved after they got that special permission from council are now dealing with a higher rate of interest than they baked into their pro forma when they were deciding to go forward with the project or not.

When we can actually change the rules so a developer, a small builder, whoever it may be understands that they can build something without having to go through that lengthy process, that kind of housing will have been legalized in communities. When you make something illegal, guess what happens? You get a lot less of it. We should be making it easy for people to contribute solutions to the housing crisis. My own view is that if someone has land and is willing to make an investment, we should not forbid a person from advancing a solution on their own property when we're in a housing crisis. If we legalize housing by changing the rules to permit home building during a housing crisis, we're going to see more houses, and that makes sense to me.

Erin: I'm glad you mentioned land because land availability is often a key talking point when discussing housing supply, something that came up in episode 51 here when we were talking about Alberta. Can you speak to how government land could be used to address the supply crisis, Minister?

Minister Fraser: One of the things that you've got to realize, and we led off with this, it's become very expensive to build homes in this country. The cost of land, labor, material, supplies, interest, it's all gone up in the last few years and we have to look at what tools we have that can bring the cost of building down.

I'm never going to say that the home-building sector should reduce wages of workers in the home-building sector. In fact, I think if we paid people fairly, we'd see even more come into the industry in different parts of the country.

That said, land is something that we actually can potentially control the price of to some degree when we're dealing with land that the federal government owns, or the different levels of government own. If we can reduce from the input cost of construction the price of the land on which a building will sit, the cost of building is going to go down and the opportunity for developers to pass on those savings to residents when we get supply and demand balanced out will become much easier.

One of the things that we're doing that's a unique approach compared to the historical practice of previous federal governments is embracing a new strategy to make land available for housing. Rather than selling off land to the highest bidder, which will not provide a level of affordability necessarily to the homes that are built upon that land, we're going to enter into long-term leases for those who will commit to certain affordability goals when it comes to the housing that will actually be built on that land.

In exchange for those affordability outcomes, we'll be able to negotiate significantly reduced cost, potentially even for as low as a dollar, for a long-term lease on the land that will last at least the life cycle of the asset or the building that's constructed.

When we make that land available, we can remove one of the most expensive contributing factors to the overall cost of home building. If we bring that cost of building down as we grow the supply of housing in this country, we can potentially be dealing with rents or home prices that are much closer to what a middle-class worker in a given community can afford as compared to what would happen in the free market on private land or on government land that is sold at market prices.

This is an enormous opportunity. As the largest landowner in the country, the federal government has a role to play. The path that we're charting and that will be revealed over the next few months, I believe, will have an enormous impact on the housing supply crisis facing the communities in every part of Canada today.

Erin: Part of CREA's advocacy efforts, as recommended by REALTORS®, has to do with growing the skilled labor force. You talked about labor there just a moment ago to help build the supply that we're missing. What does this look like, Minister Fraser? I know you spoke about this at a CREA conference last fall, but would you refresh our memories please?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. I've identified the capacity of the Canadian home-building labor force to produce homes as one of the potential bottlenecks that we're going to hit. Even if we have a perfect municipal zoning policy in place, perfect financial policies in place, there is a limit to how many homes the Canadian economy can produce today, and we want to grow the outer boundary of that limit.

There's three key areas where I think we can do this. One is by increasing the investment in training for skilled workers. We need people who have the trade and the qualification to practice that will actually be able to increase the pace of construction for existing home builders, including traditional home builders who simply need more people to grow their business.

By investing in training, we can significantly increase the capacity of the workforce over time, including by tapping into traditionally underrepresented groups in the skilled trades. Thinking about investing in programs that will bring more women into the trades, thinking about programs that will bring more racial minorities and indigenous peoples into the Canadian home-building trades, and just generally increasing the overall pool of labor supply by investing in training more broadly.

We also need to embrace targeted immigration programs that will ensure that we both align the housing output with our overall immigration numbers, but simultaneously use those immigration programs in a targeted way to bring in more skilled trades people who have the capacity to help contribute a solution to the housing crisis.

The third thing is not necessarily about growing that same pool, it's about embracing new technologies. By creating incentives to scale up home-building factories, and by incentivizing the purchase of a piece of equipment that will allow one to build more efficiently, we can significantly increase output and build homes faster by comparison, in most instances, to traditional home-building strategies.

The other advantage, in addition to just becoming more productive through the embrace of technology and the use of equipment, is the fact that you're not necessarily competing in the same labor pool. The skill set to build homes that are built in a factory and assembled on site are not perfectly aligned with conventional home-building strategies. By tapping into a pool of labor that may not come from that same skilled background, at the same time we train more skilled tradespeople in this country, we're going to be able to build that overall capacity to produce homes, which will be key if we're going to hit those supply targets.

Erin: Where does the education begin then? Are we talking like getting students coming out of high schools and going into skilled labor? You talk about the immigration adding to that workforce. How far back do we have to go and start planning for this increase in skilled labor?

Minister Fraser: There's things that we can do in the short term, for example, by embracing some targeted immigration programs. We made a change over the course of the last few years to have a category-based selection model within the express entry system that targets five key areas, one of which is the skilled trades. We've seen a fairly significant increase in the number of skilled tradespeople who've come in as a result. That can have an impact within the first year of a policy change. Not necessarily enough to solve Canada's housing crisis in one fell swoop, but enough to make a difference.

There are other things that will take, admittedly, a little bit longer to reach maturity. When you enter into training, for example, you might have a cohort of people who starts their training tomorrow, but they may take a couple of years before they get that designation. That means we must do it, but we have to be patient for some solutions to reach maturity as compared to others.

When you ask how far back do we need to go, when I talk to a lot of my friends who work in the skilled trades, though they may have only started their formal training after they finished high school, very often they grew up on a construction site working informally alongside a family business. They've been turning wrenches in garages their whole life, growing up working on bikes. That's the kind of community that I came from. You see that implementing a culture change in addition to the formal training initiatives that incentivizes and demonstrates respect towards people who have those essential skills in the trades is something that can help shift the proportion of people in a country who work in a given sector over time.

Again, by investing in home-building factories and incentivizing changes with more productive equipment or processes, we can very quickly scale up new players in the sector. There's employers I talked to who are recruiting from a broad range of industries, but not targeting people with any particular skill set, but who are willing to put in an honest day of work. They actually find training old habits out of certain skilled trades can be more challenging than having somebody start fresh who doesn't come with a particular formal skill but has a willingness to work. There's many solutions that we have to embrace, and we do have to embrace them all simultaneously.

Erin: Housing supply issues won't be solved by one person or party alone. We're realistic. We know that. It's a national issue that requires leaders, and not just political leaders, to work towards a meaningful solution together. Minister, who needs to be involved in the housing conversation outside of political leaders? Are we talking like CREA, Cooperative Housing Federation of Canada, for example, developers? Who would you like to see at the table as we build a house around that table?

Minister Fraser: Look, it's an excellent question. One of the things I've learned that I believe more than just about anything else in nine years in politics now is that decisions are not going to be made effectively if they're made behind closed doors on Parliament Hill. They need to be made in full engagement with the people and organizations who are going to be contributing solutions and to be informed by the people who need those solutions.

When you ask who should be involved, private developers and home builders should be involved. Non-profit organizations who understand the needs of specific communities can be involved. People with lived experience should be involved. Advocacy associations who understand the perspective not just of the executive director but of an entire membership of an industry need to be involved.

Groups like CREA would provide an excellent example of the opportunity to engage an entire industry in a more effective and efficient way by sending representatives into these conversations. There are academic experts who've been studying their lives to understand the solutions to some of the challenges we're facing today. Let's borrow from all of the knowledge base that the different players in the sector have to contribute. I want to point out that it's not just for formal organizations to contribute solutions. I've had the opportunity to stream a number of different local council meetings when they were debating the measures baked into their Housing Accelerator Fund agreements with the federal government and I was blown away by the perspective, particularly of young people, who were showing up at council meetings, explaining to their local councillors what these policy changes could mean for them if it would create an opportunity for them to live in the community where they grew up.

Ordinary citizens have an opportunity to advocate to their local councils, to send letters to their MPs, to their MLAs, to raise awareness as part of the need to embrace new solutions to contribute to a better housing sector a few years from now than we have today. It's not just to be left to those who have an opportunity to build massive apartments. Individual citizens can contribute solutions in this process at a local and national level as well.

Erin: Yes. I love that you mention councils because we'd like you to talk about the importance of working with cities to help create affordable housing solutions, Minister.

Minister Fraser: This is where the rubber hits the road. In a lot of communities across Canada, the success or failure of housing initiatives will be determined by a willingness of the local level of government to embrace solutions or to sometimes bow to pressure to avoid the reforms that we know will have a positive impact. I've seen extraordinary leadership at cities across the country.

Though I've been in the news a couple of times for having a disagreement with a municipal government here or there, I found over the course of the past 11 months that I've been in this position that there's an awful lot of cities who want to be incredible partners out there. I'm yet to meet a single one who doesn't want to build more homes for members in their community who are underserved when it comes to housing. Some are willing to go the extra mile.

I think about mayors like Cam Guthrie, who is advocating for ambitious reforms. I think about Berry Vrbanovic in Kitchener or Dorothy McCabe in Waterloo who are implementing these kinds of reforms that are transitioning vast employment lands into residential lands, who are embracing new zoning practices.

The City of Kelowna, who has been ahead of the curve, not only in zoning for four units as of right, which has seen an uptick in the construction of fourplexes, but also in using AI in order to identify faster processes for issuing building permits.

There are incredible leaders and if we understand the best practices from the cities who are experiencing success, we can share those lessons with other levels of government and in fact put financial incentives on the table through a program like the Housing Accelerator Fund, which has led to what is likely the largest upzoning in Canadian history over the course of the past year.

Some of these changes are not just going to have an impact in the short term, as the money we put on the table is used to support more housing growth, but in perpetuity as the systemic reforms that make it easier and faster to build homes and get permits take hold and create a new culture of home building in the cities that have made those important changes. We have to work with cities.

Thankfully there are many good partners across the country who share the desired outcome and are willing to make some of the changes to turn that desire into a reality.

Erin: Looking outside of Canada for a minute, Minister, we've seen countries and areas that have implemented programs or policies that have helped address similar supply and affordability issues. Is there anywhere that we can draw inspiration from to help within our own borders?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. Look, there's no shortage. Some of the work that's been done around building design which is able to withstand very serious safety threats, but nevertheless embrace a single-stair egress, creates opportunities for more efficient, effective building designs that will allow you to fit more home into each building, if that makes sense.

It's not limited to any one country. I think about the work that has gone on in Finland when it comes to more or less eliminating chronic homelessness by adopting a housing-first approach. I think about zoning reform in Auckland, New Zealand, Minneapolis or Austin, Texas, that has led to an explosion of multi-unit residential growth. Factory-built homes have become more or less the norm in countries like Sweden.

I had the opportunity to spend a year studying a master's degree in the Netherlands. Though I didn't live in the biggest city in the country, I nevertheless benefited from a serious public transit system where I was able to walk or take my bike to classes every day that was just as efficient as driving through the city.

There's incredible lessons we can pull internationally from zoning reform, from investments in non-market housing, to modernizing the home-building industry, to investing to solve homelessness. There are so many examples to pull from and I think about the successes and failures that others have experienced as we sit down to develop our own policy track.

Erin: Many people think that building homes is strictly about single-family homes, which are important, too, of course, but there are many other types of housing that could address Canada's supply crisis, right?

CREA's asks in its pre-budget submission are all related to supporting the entire housing continuum, including the stimulation of prefabricated housing.

Can you talk a bit, please, about how modular and prefabricated homes could be part of the solution, like automation as well as 3D printing, all helping Canada to reach its housing supply goals?

Minister Fraser: We need every kind of housing manufacturer to be building more housing, whether that's traditional contractors doing stick-built homes, whether it's modular housing, whether it's panelization, mass timber. We did mention 3D printing. It's got a lot of ways to go before the sectors mature and can be counted on for the kind of volume that we need, but we need to embrace all of it.

I think the advantage right now, though on a cost basis, depending on the building design, you can be competitive. You don't see enormous savings when it comes to manufactured homes. Some kinds of designs could even be a little more expensive, but for multi-unit residential, depending on the scale of the building, you can be cost competitive, but you can build sometimes twice as fast. When you have an opportunity to build more quickly, time can be money based on the terms of financing or the interest rate environment you may be dealing with. You have an opportunity to create a solution much more quickly, and though the cost of building may only be on par, it can help address some imbalances between supply and demand in the market more quickly.

There's a few things we're doing to incentivize more use of manufactured homes in this country. The first is directly incentivizing the uptick of new technology or processes with a hundred million dollars in contribution through both one of our supercluster initiatives and through the regional development agencies in Canada who understand the more localized opportunities to scale those factories.

When I actually talk to those in the sector, they tell me though incentives are appreciated, what they need even more is orders. If they're going to justify a factory expansion, they needed to know there's a pipeline of projects that will justify a bigger facility, the new piece of equipment, staffing up, whatever it may be. We're trying to do that in two key ways. One is to carve out a $500 million tranche of the apartment construction loan program just for homes that are built in factories.

The second is to use our public lands initiative, and this is still under development now, to create greater opportunities for manufactured homes by figuring out how we can commit to a certain scale of factory-built homes when it comes to the public lands initiative to incentivize growth in the sector at the same time we get that housing output.

There's a number of different opportunities that I see, but these tools that we put on the table as part of the National Housing Plan, I expect, are going to have a significant impact.

Erin: We can hope, and hope is what this is all about. Why should Canadians be hopeful moving forward in regards to housing supply and affordability, Minister, when this is clearly a daunting problem to solve? Are you hopeful?

Minister Fraser: I am, and it's not out of a sense of blind optimism. I'm hopeful because I'm actually seeing solutions implemented at a local level that I believe can be scaled up and replicated at a national level.

When I see the extraordinary uptake of the Housing Accelerator Fund, for example, in six months we've reached deals with 179 partners across the country. Following it, we've seen remarkable upzoning of cities across the country. In April, the most recent month for which I've seen the data, we set a record for the issuance of building permits in this country. We didn't do that by snapping our fingers and creating a new tool altogether. We borrowed from the best practices that were already being implemented in cities right across the country, and created an incentive for everyone else to implement those practices as well, and we're seeing change. When we removed the tax from new purpose-built rentals in this country, we saw a number of provinces join forces with us, and then most of those provinces have seen a positive impact when it comes to starts this year as compared to last year.

In my own home province of Nova Scotia, where we've removed the tax on both the federal and provincial tax on new apartment construction, we've actually seen growth this year compared to last of more than 100%. It's remarkable what we're seeing in certain provinces, but this is not to say the job is done. We have a long way to go, but we are starting to see the early signs of success of some of the measures we're putting in place.

The reason that I'm optimistic that we can continue to see these measures taken up is I've never seen such alignment across party lines, across levels of government, in the desire to solve a problem like we currently see with the housing crisis.

We've seen the federal government put out what has been billed as the most ambitious plan in half a century to build homes in this country. Provinces seem more than live to the issue and are implementing a lot of measures on their own. Cities are waking up not just to the need to build more homes, but the opportunities for their communities if they can accommodate the people who want to move in and call those city homes and contribute their talents to the local economy and local community.

The political will is there across levels of government, across party lines. We're starting to see signs of success, and we're even seeing the latest rate cut from the Bank of Canada demonstrate not that we are where we need to be, but that we're trending in a positive direction.

I'm filled with a sense of hope and optimism. The scale of the task before me is not lost on me, but I do understand what can be done when you have three levels of government working together, and I think we've got that in every region of the country.

Erin: Okay. How can we use those wins to continue the momentum?

Minister Fraser: Success begets success. What has been incredible to me is, again, pointing to the experience of the Housing Accelerator Fund, though there were some challenges with some of the measures we were inviting cities to adopt in the outset, nothing created more momentum than a neighbouring city adopting those changes first.

When we were able to stand up and announce that City X was going to receive several million dollars to make certain kinds of changes, City Y next door decided they wanted to do the same. Then City Z took similar measures, and we saw that the competition actually became not just a competition for the federal money that was on the table, but making sure that they weren't to be outdone by their neighbours, knowing that that would actually potentially pull people from one community to another based on housing availability.

When we demonstrate that certain measures work and can be done within the political context of a given community, it creates a level of courage and ambition at a local level, I find, right across Canada, to say we can solve this problem.

My sense is the political temperature has reached a stage where leaders will ignore the housing crisis at their peril. There are solutions that are being made evident in communities across the country, not by the most rigorous or recent study that's been performed on them, but by the policies that are being implemented that were informed by those studies 10 and 20 years ago that are having an impact today.

We can continue to increase the level of ambition by rewarding communities who are adopting policies that are making a difference. I have full faith that when those solutions prove their merit, the momentum will continue to snowball. We're seeing that with zoning, we're seeing that with multi-unit residential construction. My hope is we can see that in the home-building industry with more factory-built homes.

There's no shortage of solutions, but once communities see that they start to work somewhere, they're willing to try them in their own backyard more often.

Erin: Can you tell us why initiatives such as the Cooperative Housing Development Program are going to help Canadians?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. If you're going to understand how we can help, you have to understand that there is a problem first. Separate and apart from the housing affordability challenges we have in the market, there's an enormous challenge when it comes to the lack of social housing, affordable housing for low-income families in this country that is subsidized by governments.

The reason that we have a shortage of non-market housing in Canada, and by the way, we have about 4% of our total share of homes in this country exist outside of the market, the average for developed economies in the world is about double that, and the number of people in Canada who live below a low-income threshold is between 10% and 11%. There are going to be people who fall through the cracks. If you have more low-income people in your country, then you have houses that are designed to support people with low incomes. The cost, by the way, of a shortage of affordable housing is not revealed just in housing costs. You see increased health costs as people run into challenges with the mental health system and emergency room more often. You see more challenges in the legal system when people have challenges with the police or the courts. You see people less often fulfill their economic potential because it's awfully hard to look for a job when you don't have a place to go to bed at night.

When we have investments like the partnership we've made with the Cooperative Housing Federation, or like the increased contributions through the Affordable Housing Fund, or a new acquisition fund to pull low-cost housing from the market into a non-profit setting, we can correct that imbalance between low-cost housing that's subsidized by governments and the number of low-income Canadians that live in this country. It's been 30 years without any serious investment by the federal government in affordable housing. Conservative governments and liberal governments have both chosen to pull back. We changed that in 2017 with the introduction of the National Housing Strategy. We've increased the ambition with the latest plan to solve the housing crisis, but these investments will help specifically target the needs of low-income Canadians and therefore benefit not just the people who live in them, but the entirety of a community's population on the basis of those costs we won't incur and the opportunities that more people who have their housing needs met can create in the communities where they live.

Erin: Nobody knows their communities better than REALTORS®. There are more than 160,000 in Canada, a collective that continues to be a strong voice for housing supply and affordability issues in Canada. Do you have any tips for them, Minister?

Minister Fraser: Look, I won't tell anybody else how to do their job. I've got enough people telling me how to do mine, but there are a few points maybe I'll make in response to your question.

First, I'm grateful to REALTORS® who put the interests of their clients first. This goes without saying, but I trust the industry to ensure that they're well informed on what policy tools may be available to their clients who are trying to save up for that down payment, who are considering whether they want to avail themselves of a 30-year amortization period. Make sure you understand what policies are on offer. You will be better than me at guiding people through the process of buying their first home in particular, given your wealth of experience. Continue to put the interests of your clients first, and continue to be aware of the tools the government has on offer to make it easier to become a participant in the housing market or a homeowner.

Finally, don't assume that governments know what your experience is. It's been extraordinary for me, before and after my time in this position, the wealth of information and experience that REALTORS® have shared about my own market in my own community, my own province of Nova Scotia, or nationally.

I should give a shout out to Susan Green, my friend, neighbor, and REALTOR® who's been involved with advocacy campaigns with CREA for a number of years.

Don't be afraid to show up at that council meeting. Advocate strongly if you believe in zoning reform, because in the absence of voices explaining how it will make a positive difference, there will be people who are afraid of change in their community.

If you can demonstrate through your experience, your knowledge, your training, that we can invite new solutions to communities who are not accustomed to them, and the world doesn't end. You can live in a community that creates a vibrant and dynamic place to live for a next generation of people who may call a community home. Don't be afraid to participate in the debates as they play out at a local level. Inform folks like me and my counterparts provincially about your industry's point of view. Make sure at an individual service level you continue to support people by making them aware of what tools are available.

I'm grateful for the work that you do to help guide people through the home buying process, and very grateful for the opportunity to connect today.

Erin: We're very grateful as well, Minister. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your insight, and your time. Thanks a lot.

Minister Fraser: A pleasure, as always. We'll look forward to our next conversation.

Erin: You bet. Thanks again to Minister Fraser for taking the time to be with us today. We all know this conversation isn't going away, and the REALTOR® community continues to roll up their sleeves and take action.

Of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

On June 5, The Bank of Canada announced its first rate cut in four years. This could be the sign many were waiting for to come off the sidelines and step into Canada’s housing markets. But, what does that look like across the country and how do other economic factors play into the decision making process?

On the latest episode of REAL TIME, we hear from Shaun Cathcart, Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis with the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), Ann-Marie Lurie, Chief Economist with the Calgary Real Estate Board (CREB), and Jason Mercer, Chief Market Analyst with the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board (TRREB), as they share insights on the current state of Canada’s housing market from a national, provincial, and local level, exploring everything from the need for more supply to interprovincial migration to pricing.

Transcript

Erin Davis: It finally happened. On June 5th, the Bank of Canada lowered the interest rate for the first time in more than four years. Could this indicate the beginning of a shift in the Canadian housing market? If so, what can we expect at a national, provincial, and local level? I'm Erin Davis. Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Now, who better to speak to the state of Canada's housing market and economy in general than our three guests today?

Joining us are, Shaun Cathcart, Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis with the Canadian Real Estate Association, Ann-Marie Lurie, Chief Economist with the Calgary Real Estate Board and formerly with the Alberta Real Estate Association, and Jason Mercer, Chief Market Analyst with the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board. Welcome to REAL TIME. What does the Bank of Canada's most recent announcement mean for current and potential Canadian home buyers? Why did this change happen now? We're going to start with you, Shaun.

Shaun Cathcart: Sure. Let me take the second part of that question first. The reason it happened now is because the Canadian economy is not doing that well. Inflations and the Bank of Canada's favorite BFFs, CPI-common, CPI-trim, CPI-median have been well-behaved, as they say, for four months and it just seemed like the right time. They were a little bit worried about the housing market doing it in the middle of the spring market, but they did it anyway.

What it means for current home buyers or current homeowners, if they've got variable rates, their payments will go down. If they've got fixed rates, that their renewal date is looking better, whatever that is out into the future now that this rate cut cycle has started. If you're a potential home buyer, if that's the signal you were waiting for to jump into the market, there you have it.

Erin: It really has a psychological element to it, doesn't it, Shaun?

Shaun: Very much so. If you think back to last year when buyers jumped into the market with both feet in March and April, basically anticipating rate cuts, and all they got was rate hikes, they weren't going to get fooled again this year. That camp has probably moved over into the, I'll believe it when I see it, and now they've seen it.

Erin: Ann-Marie, how about your perspective on this?

Ann-Marie Lurie: For our market, it's a little different. We're already in really tight conditions. Any change in rates is just going to bring even more demand into our market, especially for people who were priced out to a certain extent. What we'll be closely watching is what actually happens on the bond yield? Are we going to see this transfer into declining five-year lending rates on the qualification basis? Those are the things that we're looking at. Again, it's just going to further tighten and increase demand even more so than what we are already experiencing.

Erin: Because you've already seen pent-up demand and activity even before the rates moved, right?

Ann-Marie: That's right. Our market has been performing very differently than what you're seeing in some other major markets in the country. We've seen extremely strong demand, we have limited supply, we're in seller market conditions, and we've had strong price growth. This has been happening all the while, while we have very strong or very high interest rates.

Erin: Jason, your take on this. Do you think it's about time or what do you think?

Jason Mercer: Certainly, if you look at the GTA experience, it's been quite a bit different than what Ann-Marie was describing out West in Alberta or Calgary in the sense that, we did see a very real impact when the Bank of Canada hiked rates through 2022 and 2023. A lot of would-be homebuyers moved to the sidelines. It's not to say that most of these people don't want to purchase a home. In fact, most of them have every intention on making a purchase as we move forward.

Our public opinion polling done by Ipsos suggests that there's a lot of these homebuyers that maybe this first move on the part of the Bank of Canada may see some of them start to get back into the market. In reality, we probably need to see 100 basis points, 150 basis points before we start to see a real marked acceleration in sales activity. We'll see stronger activity in the second half of 2024, but even more so as we move into 2025.

Erin: Predicting is hard, we know that. What do you think July's interest rate announcement could bring?

Jason: Sure. I think the Bank of Canada stated that they're going to be watching all the various economic indicators. I think that's the case. I do believe that if we continue to see slower growth in the economy and moderate growth in the employment market, then I think there is, at least, a chance that they could bring on another cut as we move into July. It's probably 50-50 at best at this point.

Erin: Do you think a lot of people are holding on now? We're selling a house, so this may be a little bit personal interest here, but I've got you here, I might as well ask. I'm sure that there are people who are very interested in what's going to happen. Do you think that people are going to see the June rate drop and then go, "Okay, why don't we wait until July?" What do you think, Shaun?

Shaun: I think the first one is really the big psychological one. Rates aren't any lower. To Ann-Marie's point, this was already priced into five-year mortgage rates well before, back a month or two ago. It's really the psychological element at this point. To Jason's point, there's a lot of people that if it's the actual rate itself that you're getting that you're waiting for, a lot of them are going to be waiting for maybe 100 or 200 basis points lower than what it is now. For people that are just wanting to be sure, unlike last year where they got burned that the loosening cycle had officially started, that the Bank of Canada is going to wave the green flag on that. I do think that there's some segment of the market that will jump, and I expect to see it showing up in the first little bit of June.

Erin: What are your ideas on it, Ann-Marie? A July drop, what might happen?

Ann-Marie: Again, I think that it depends on how much this actually impacts the overall lending rates. I think it will encourage some people to reconsider getting back in that potentially couldn't. In our market, it's going to depend on if they have supply available to them. We've seen that there's been a shift towards more affordable product. It hasn't necessarily entirely curbed our demand, but we have seen that shift towards more affordable product. What we could start to see happen is a pickup in some of the higher-end product in our market as rates start to come down.

Erin: Interesting. All right. Let's put into context some of these pricing peaks and valleys. If you're looking at housing prices in a vacuum, whether it's locally, provincially, or even nationally without context, it can be hard to see a way out. Is there any context to be added to the discussion around housing affordability that could put things into perspective, Shaun?

Shaun: Sure. I think the biggest impact on housing affordability is the fact that the Bank of Canada is expected to move rates back towards much more normal levels or what would be considered neutral by them, which may be 3%-ish from the 5% that we were at for so long. That'll make a big difference for affordability. If you're expecting a lot more in the way of price declines, the biggest price declines were really in 2022 from quite frankly, a very short-lived peak.

People have bought basically, between October of 2021 and March of 2022. Other than that, a lot of markets are already stabilized near those levels that we had before and since. It depends where you are. Quite frankly, I would expect to see some moderate price growth creeping back in as all this demand comes off the sidelines.

Jason: Every market is different. If you look at the greater Toronto area, we have seen a pretty marked uptick in available listings. Initially, as people move off the sidelines and back into the market, start to take advantage of lower borrowing costs, there's still going to be quite a bit of choice out there. There will be negotiating power for buyers. Eventually, we're going to eat through, we're going to absorb some of that standing inventory.

When that starts to happen, there's going to be more competition. You're going to see more interest in a given home. That's when you start to see upward pressure stocking exerted on home prices. We will start to see that, later on, this year and I think even more so into 2025, especially if we don't see any meaningful additions of that to the housing stock. I'm sure we'll talk more about that.

Erin: We will. We'll also look across the country too, but, of course, when we've got Ann-Marie with us from Calgary, which is such a fascinating market to begin with. What's your perspective on that in terms of the prices? What's going on right now, or what you can expect, and what you've seen, Ann-Marie?

Ann-Marie: First of all, our market is obviously very different. We are relatively affordable when we look at other markets in BC or Ontario in comparison. We have gone through periods of price adjustments. We've been always known as this boom and bust market. However, I want to remind people that even though we've gone through some adjustments, our prices are rising again, and we still have a lot of catch up to do. We're still quite a significant spread compared to some other larger markets in the country, so it is a little different here.

Now, that's been one of those factors that has attracted people to our market, and it's why our demand has stayed relatively strong throughout this time frame, and it's why we've seen some really strong price growth. It wasn't so long ago that we saw prices actually, at least, say stable or somewhat slide. I think, again, a lot of that is to do with how we add supply and how much supply we can add. A little bit of a different scenario here. Like I said, prices have been rising pretty steadily for the past two years, but when you look at that spread, we're still far more affordable.

Now, people in Calgary don't necessarily feel like it's affordable after the price jumps that we've had, but, put some number of perspective to this. We still have product available like our typical apartment condos in the $350,000 range. People can still purchase detached homes in the 700,000 range. Very different market conditions here and for us, our affordable is a little bit outside of Calgary where we still have more options in all types of home options.

Erin: We'll get into the whys and wherefores of that as well, Ann-Marie, but let's talk about interprovincial migration. Alberta knows a few things about that. There's been an increase in interprovincial migration in the last few years, of course, Alberta being one of the country's hotspots and it's not just because of great hockey. What might be causing this? Let's get all your opinions on this. We'll start with you, Ann-Marie. What makes Alberta so different?

Ann-Marie: I think our relative affordability has been a draw because when we look at our interprovincial migration; the majority of people have been coming from Ontario, followed by BC. These are the two markets that we're seeing a lot of people come into the city. Again, our affordability is, we're far more affordable relative to those two markets. That's been one of the factors that have attracted people here. Further to that, especially we did have supply going into some of this. Now, obviously, supplies become a bit more of a challenge now. Other than that, we've also been creating a lot of employment. Employment has actually been improving here and really a lot of professional and technical jobs, which tend to be in a higher pay grade. This is another factor that's really contributed to it. It's not just the relative affordability, it's also the positive employment situation. Even our economy has really been outperforming some of the other provinces in the country.

Erin: Shaun, your take on the interprovincial migration?

Shaun: That's been an interesting one to track. As Ann-Marie said, a lot of Ontario to Alberta, and a lot of that is the younger set, 25 to 35, looking for employment, but also home ownership where that's become very difficult in Ontario. There is even some evidence in the demographic data that the 65-plus boomer parents are following their kids and grandkids out West because what's the point of having your big Toronto home if no one's going to visit you? Another trend is the older Gen Xers moving out East for their retirements.

I guess maybe the 60-years-old, they got called back to the office to make that Toronto commute and said, "You know what, I'm going to sell my big house and move out there where I can get a place for 300 and retire early." Lots of interesting trends. I think we have a tendency to blame COVID for a lot of these. Certainly, COVID was a turbocharger of a lot of things there were, but up and out to be able to afford a home has been going on for a very long time.

Erin: Ann-Marie, you mentioned the tech sector. Is that one of the parts of the growth of Alberta where people can move to be at home, be working from home? Has that added to the attraction in Alberta?

Ann-Marie: I think that does come into play. There's no question that sector has been growing here. Alberta has been able to attract a lot of investment into even venture capital. That's been one factor that has supported some of our growth. The majority of our industry is still in the energy sector and spin-offs from the energy sector. I think that ability to work remotely has increased the appeal, especially because of our relative affordability.

That if you're not having to go into the office and now you can, all of a sudden, purchase and get into homeownership, as Shaun was saying, we had product available in all price ranges for several years. I think that for a lot of people who really desire homeownership, Alberta is really a good option for them, especially if they're not having to go into the office. We've improved our connectivity in terms of airlines. We're seeing growth in different industries that we haven't seen. That's really speaking to some of our diversification that's happening in this province as well.

Erin: Jason, we all heard during the pandemic about people who were living the dream, going up to the cottage, staying at the cottage, working from the cottage. Is that still happening? Is that still a thing or Is that bump? Are we over that and it's back to normal thing? What are you seeing in terms of that remote working now?

Jason: It's interesting. If you think about the movement out of the GTA property to surrounding areas, it could be cottage country, it could be other smaller metropolitan areas in the greater Golden Horseshoe like the Kitcheners and Hamilton's of the world, that's a trend we were already seeing prior to COVID in the sense that people didn't want to leave Ontario to say move to Alberta, but they were looking for a place that was more affordable that they could purchase a home in Southern Ontario. We see that, we look at our members' activities. It used to be that the great, great majority of transactions reported through TRREB's MLS system were within the traditional GTA boundaries.

Now, you're looking at more than a third of those transactions are actually in other centers in Southern Ontario. People's clients have started to look further afield to purchase a home, and our membership has been helping them out. If you think about, though, whether those people are being replaced, they are. We're not seeing a hollowing out of the GTA, it's just from a different source. We're the single greatest beneficiary of immigration into the country. People want to move to the greater Toronto area to take advantage of a diverse labor market and what have you, but it impacts the housing market differently, rental versus ownership.

Erin: How does interprovincial migration, we will get to immigration, Jason, but how does interprovincial migration affect any housing market? Are there areas popping up as hot spots that might not have been considered before? You talk about the general spread, Jason, into the Golden Horseshoe or even East to Port Hope, Trenton, all of the places that used to seem so far from Toronto, but now people are finding they'd rather drive for two hours than sit in traffic for two hours. How does this migration affect the housing market? Shaun, do you want to address that first?

Shaun: Sure. I guess the biggest impact would be that it's spreading, whereas it used to be that it was Toronto and Vancouver were expensive and most other places weren't. When you've got all of those people moving out into those other places, once Toronto and Vancouver were in some sense limit to how far those prices could go up and how many people you could jam in there, it spreads across the country, including during COVID, where it was disproportionately to the East Coast, places where they were considered very affordable before. It's a double-edged sword because it's nice to have that home price growth and that activity level in places that were pretty sleepy for decades. If you're a local person in Fredericton, for example, and you're looking to buy that starter bungalow, and you're now having to compete with a retiree couple from Toronto who just sold a place for $1.7 million, that's where the double-edged sword comes in.

Erin: We've touched on this a little bit so far in terms of demographic. Shaun, you mentioned retirees from Toronto moving to Fredericton and people also wanting that particular house coming from different income brackets. When it comes to location popularity, can you see anything or tell us about anything that you've seen and the contributing factors that you've noticed?

Shaun: Sure. One of the things that's going on in demographics all around the world, quite frankly, with the hockey stick of population that popped up after World War II, is that most of those people are still around and just aging through time. In that middle-aged space, you've got now your boomers, your Gen Xers, your Millennials all in that space at the same time. We stopped building the traditional low-rise single-family home about 20 years ago.

A lot of those, not to make accusations, but a lot of the empty-nester boomers are stuck in those big homes. A lot of those bedrooms are collecting dust, whereas a lot of young people are looking to start families and can't do that in a 600-square-foot condo. As we mentioned, they're moving out further. I don't know whether that makes those other regions popular. It's mostly because they're more affordable to get a place that's suitable for, say, a family of four.

Erin: Ann-Marie, what are you seeing? Are you seeing more retirees, or you're seeing the younger end of the demographic coming in and trying to really start something?

Ann-Marie: I would say we're seeing younger demographics increase here. That's what's attracting people to our city. Again, part of that is because we do have that supply of detached homes that are larger that can house a family, as well as other product types and in affordable ranges relative to other larger markets. We traditionally find that our interprovincial migration tends to be younger people that are coming here. We continue to see that trend play out.

It's been the largest growth in terms of our demographics, and a lot of them are coming specifically into Calgary. Again, that has to do with that future opportunity as well. What does that job prospect look like? In addition to that cost of housing, we are relatively affordable, especially given our salaries here tend to be a little bit higher than some of the other locations in the country.

Erin: Also, Ann-Marie, as you well know, of course, Alberta has this spread out factor as well, where Okotoks, and Longview, and Turner Valley, and Black Diamond, and even Airdrie were places that were so far from Calgary at one time. These places are just a drive away now and not a huge one. What about the spread-ability of Calgary? Has that worked to your benefit? Is the market taking advantage of that geographically?

Ann-Marie: It does. Yes, for sure. I think one of the differences is in our market, is that we can add supply when we need to. Traditionally, throughout every cycle we've seen, whenever we run into these extreme shortage scenarios, we see the new home industry is able to really expand. Last year Calgary had a record level of housing starts in the Calgarian region area. We have to remember that we are not like Toronto where our surrounding communities, or surrounding cities, or towns are a very long commute. We have markets like Airdrie that it's actually a closer drive if you work in the North part of the city than it would be if you lived in South Calgary.

I think that that's an important distinction as well in how our market's a little different, is you're not driving that far out for affordability. It is a little different. We still have land available within the city limits that can add significant homes. We're seeing construction happen and respond to basically the supply shortage that we're currently facing. I think that's always been the difference in Alberta, is because we do have a lot of land.

In fact, I think that now we're starting to see some shifts as well, not just from Calgary, but in Edmonton, who last year recorded price declines. They're starting to see a bit of a shift as well that more people are considering Edmonton, which is relatively more affordable than Calgary. I think that there has to be a lot of perspective in the difference about how you can add supply. That's something that our province has been really good at doing, but part of that is because we have that land supply available.

Erin: In 2023, Canada's immigration numbers were much higher than we're accustomed to, putting more pressure on an already stressed Canadian housing market. This added pressure on the market, it also affects supply and affordability. How have you seen this play out in the Canadian housing markets? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: Sure. Just for anyone that doesn't know, it's a combination of immigration, which we have a target for, and non-permanent resident arrivals that add to that population growth, typically in the 300,000 to 400,000 person range, sorry, from about World War II until about 10 years ago. Last year it was 1.25 million. That's a huge jump in people. Everyone needs to live somewhere. I think what's amazing is that we're really not seeing much of an impact in the ownership market. It's all flooding into the rental market, which was already struggling beforehand. We do expect to see some flow out of the rental market, into the ownership market, even in the absence of big rate decreases just because for a lot of people, it's going to start to look a lot more just relatively favorable to buy, even at very high rates and prices, than to stay at a rental market that's increasingly expensive and maybe precarious too in terms of being able to stay in your unit.

Jason: It's interesting. We've done a lot of polling around immigration, and certainly, our last round of Ipsos polling found a couple things. There's a short-term and a long-term story to this. When we're seeing record levels of immigration into Canada and certainly, drilling down to the GTA, a lot of that initially is pointed at the rental market. We've seen very tight rental market conditions over the last number of years. At the same time, when you look at people's propensity to purchase a home, we actually find that newcomers to Canada, the period to move from renting to owning is actually shorter than for households that were born here.

If you think about that, the last couple of years, we've seen record immigration that's really impacted the rental market, but these people are actually going to be moving in fairly short order into the home ownership side of things. Putting interest rates aside, just the simple fact that we're seeing this strong population growth on the back of a population cohort that has a higher propensity to buy, that really provides a longer-term view that we're going to continue to see strong demand for ownership housing.

Erin: That's fascinating. All right. You'll remember that CREA's pre-budget submission includes recommendations on how the affordability and supply issues can be addressed, just what we've been talking about today. From your individual perspectives, what types of housing are needed to solve the housing crisis? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: Sure. When we were advocating for more supply, it was more of everything. You can choose the number you want to look at, whether we need an additional 1.4 million homes per the PBO just to catch up by 2030, or whether we need another 3 1/2 million per CMHC by 2030, which is a tall order, given the fact that we'll be lucky to make the 2.3 million baseline that that needs to be added on top of.

You really need more of everything. It's not one or the other, but it may have to be one or the other in terms of capacity constraints to build. I think our more recent submission does encourage the government to look at a modular housing of factory built penalization, mass timber, and some of those new technologies where there may be some really big opportunities going forward to do things better, more energy efficiently, faster. It does have some challenges, which is why it hasn't taken off yet.

Erin: Jason, the missing middle, tell us about that.

Jason: I think it's a really important concept. It jumps off something that Shaun said earlier about more aged households living in a home that's way too big for them. It's not that a lot of these people want to live in this large home, it's that they want to live in their current neighborhood. They don't want to move away from friends, they don't want to move away from the amenities that they're used to, and they simply don't have other housing options that would better meet their needs.

If we're able to see a greater diversity of home types, not just more housing in the aggregate, in a lot of built-up neighborhoods, but also in new subdivisions and developments that are being put up, I think you'd see an easier movement through that housing continuum over time, from renting, to owning, to buying your second home, et cetera. People would be more easily able to find a home that meets their needs. What you'd see then is more churn in the marketplace and less of these tight market conditions, some of which are due to the fact that people don't believe they'll be able to list their current home for sale and find something else that meets their needs.

Erin: That sounds brilliant. I love the idea of that, staying in your neighborhood but downsizing at the same time. What is the big obstacle there? Is it NIMBY, where there was a 4,000 square foot house if it turns into a multi-family like six or even just row houses for three families? Is it NIMBY? What is it? What do you think is the main obstacle there?

Jason: I think certainly, when we first started banging the drum on the need for more housing supply, it was thrown out by some policymakers as a bit of a red herring. I think over the better part of the last decade, there's really been that realization that housing supply has been a problem. We've got a housing supply deficit that's built-up over time. We're also not building enough homes to account for the record levels of population growth we're expecting to see over the next few years. With that in mind, I think there's been a real positive shift on the part of all levels of government that A, we need to see more housing supply in the aggregate, but we also need to see a greater diversity of home types brought online.

I think that started to permeate down to the neighborhood level. I think more and more people are seeing A, yes, we need more housing supply, and B, it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose it. I'll tell you, we did a study looking at what the art of the possible is for missing middle types of housing, both in existing built-up neighborhoods, but also in new developments. Some of the options look pretty cool. I think there's an educational component as well. If people that are initially opposed to new types of housing in their neighborhood looked at what some of the possibilities are, I think there'd be a lot less resistance.

Erin: I love the thought of that. Ann-Marie, Alberta, what's going on there?

Ann-Marie: First of all, we've only really seen a struggle to keep up with supply over the past two years, and that's just because of the sudden influx we've had of migrants. I think that's just some of the differences that, again, our market has had. Now, with regards to adding supply, there's no question. I think we need all different forms of supply. Now, our newer communities are quite diverse. They do have a really good selection of your typical detached homes to your semis, and row, and apartment properties. I think that because we have still a lot of new community development, we're seeing that good mix in all of our newer communities.

Now, when it comes to the existing communities, sometimes that's where there is some challenges. Often the challenge in our market is not that the redevelopment can't happen, it's what type of pricing are you coming in at? The biggest challenge that we're seeing in our market is development of affordable type of ownership properties. Again, affordable is always relative to each market, but for us, it's how do we get that product available in some of those lower price ranges? We traditionally saw even apartment style product, we used to have product available in the 200,000s. Now that's disappearing. Where we're finding the biggest challenge to add supply is in those lower price ranges.

That's where we're seeing supply actually decline. I think that for us, it really comes down to what are those options to increase that land supply available to develop on? That's something that is another thing that tends to influence our market, is that ability to unlock that land for development. We've seen land costs rise significantly, especially when there's been some boundaries placed on new development within the city limits and outside of our city. Those are things that we're looking at on a policy basis, but I think that the biggest challenge that we're facing today is having supply come in some of those lower price ranges where we traditionally had supply.

Erin: What impact does our REALTOR® advocacy have on the current state of the housing market? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: We've got 160,000 voice strong membership. We have a very strong presence up on Parliament Hill, a lot of connections and meetings that are happening all the time, PAC days here in Ottawa, where we basically meet with every MP in the country and with the REALTOR® representative from their area. We also have PAC at home where members meet their MP where they live. We've got a really, really, very, very strong advocacy voice here in Ottawa. I think that the things that we're advocating for are being echoed by other organizations as well. It's everything on the supply side. I think that all political parties are on side with that. It really is a front burner issue in Canada. A big part of that is been that we've been out there for the last few years saying this is what you need to be focused on.

Erin: Jason, you've been talking about supply as well, of course.

Jason: Thinking about government relations at all levels of organized real estate, whether you're thinking about the board level, the provincial associations, or CREA at the national level, there's been a great partnership there. I think that's in realization that it's all three levels of government that have a role to play in housing policy and certainly recently making things work from a supply perspective.

I think we've really seen the benefits of that cooperation over the last number of years as the feds, the provincial government, and local government, certainly in the GTA and across the country have come up with some unique new policy stances and platforms that hopefully, we'll see more housing supply come online. I think the next couple of years, we're going to tell this tale because we need to move from the policy paper to getting actual shovels in the ground.

Erin: Oh, thank you, Jason. I love that you talked about the future here because it's a perfect way to begin our wrap up to this Episode 51. What is one thing that ®S should pay attention to this year? We'll go local, and provincial, and nationally. Jason, let's start with you, again, on this one.

Jason: I think at the local level, if you look at a region like the GTA, every neighborhood can be different. Whereas in some parts of the GTA, even in this environment of higher borrowing costs, some neighborhoods have been very tight. If a listing comes on the market, you're seeing a lot of competition for it. In other areas, it's going to take some time to see market conditions pick back up. Of course, then that dictates what your strategy is going to be as a buyer or seller. A REALTOR® that really knows what's going on in a local area is, obviously, going to have a lot of value to bring to that transaction.

The other important thing I'll note is just the value that REALTORS® in general bring to the overall economy. We've estimated that every transaction that gets reported through TRREB's MLS system results in another $70,000 worth of expenditure in the local economy. There's billions of dollars of economic benefit and associated jobs and tax revenues that's associated with REALTORS®' work.

Ann-Marie: For us, I think the key thing is to understand that we are different than sometimes the national trends. Again, looking at it on what are those local factors that are driving our province and our overall economy? Are we going to continue to attract people from different parts of the country? Is our migration numbers going to stay strong? That has a significant impact on our housing market. I think that understanding some of those different trends really come down to some of the fundamentals that are driving our provincial economy versus what you might be seeing in other parts of the country. I think it's going to be very important for both buyers, and sellers, and REALTORS® to really understand some of the dynamics within our market. Again, what we're seeing is very differing trends in the lower price ranges, and different product types, and as well as by location. Our market is still a seller's market condition, and that's not really expected to change over the short-term until we see some shifts in supply.

Erin: Last word to Shaun Cathcart. Shaun, what do you say about what's coming up?

Shaun: I guess the big one would be, think about boring costs coming down. They could come down faster than people think. Think about how much pent-up demand there was beforehand, how much pent-up demand there's been the last two years when the market's been very quiet, and how much additional demand is coming through population growth. It's not a database that we can measure, but we know that there is a record number of people out there on the sidelines ready to go. You've got increasing turmoil in rental markets, pushing people towards the ownership market, and when boring costs drop, be prepared to get a lot busier maybe faster than you think.

Erin: I love that note on which to end. Thank you. Thank you all so very much for sharing your wisdom here with us all today. Best of luck to you in the second half of 2024.

Shaun: Thank you.

Jason: Thanks very much.

Ann-Marie: Thank you.

Erin: That conversation certainly gave us a lot to digest. If you want even more context or to keep up with how things play out, visit creastats.ca for the latest housing market analysis. Of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating, or you can review us on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for joining us here. I'm Erin Davis. We'll talk to you soon on REAL TIME.

From websites and ads to social media, newsletters, and podcasts, content is everywhere and has the potential to be a powerful business driver.

But how do you consistently create good, creative content?

That’s where Melanie Deziel comes in, a creativity coach and leading voice in content marketing. With clients including Google, Netflix, The New York Times, and others, Melanie joins REAL TIME to share her framework for systemizing creativity, making it easier and faster to generate content that stands out and connects with your audience.

Learn more about Melanie and her book The Content Fuel Framework at MelanieDeziel.com.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Web pages, social posts, newsletters, podcasts; content is everywhere, but do you need to be too? I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Joining us today is Melanie Deziel, a creativity coach and one of the top voices in content marketing. Hitting a wall with your content? Not sure which channels are best for your business? Let's delve into what makes a strong content strategy with our guest today.

Well, thank you for joining us today on REAL TIME, Melanie. I'm so excited about this discussion. Let's start with the basics. What is content marketing and why might it be an important tool for entrepreneurs?

Melanie Deziel: Content marketing is a really broad term and it can be used to include a lot of things. I think for our purposes, we want to think about any time we're intentionally using content to communicate with our audience. That could be the copy that's on your website or the copy of an email, it's the content you're putting on social media, it's the videos you may record. All of that is really the content that we're talking about here, things we are constructing as REALTORS® to try to really convey a specific message to our audience.

Erin: One of the phrases you use, and I love your books and I'm so glad we're going to be focusing on one of them today, is random acts of content. Now let's look into that a little bit. What do you take that to mean?

Melanie: A lot of times what happens is you have this vague understanding that I'm supposed to be on social, I'm supposed to create content, and without putting a ton of strategic thought into it, because that's not what we were trained for after all, you just do your best. You throw something out there, but you haven't put enough thought into whether that serves your business, whether that serves your goals with who you're trying to reach, whether the audience is correct. That's where we end up with the random acts of content. You're using all of your resources, your time to create these things, but they may not be serving your overall goals.

Erin: Okay. Most REALTORS® would agree it's important to have a social media presence, obviously, but what other channels are cornerstones, Melanie, of a strong content strategy?

Melanie: The content strategy specifics are going to be different depending on what your priorities are and, as we'll talk about later, I'm sure, how you like to create content, what kind of content you create. What we do know is that social media is important, so is your website. If you have a web property where you are sending people, you want to make sure that there's stuff there worth seeing. Not just your listings, not just your background professionally, but maybe some helpful blog posts, maybe some articles about common challenges they may run into, maybe other helpful content that's going to allow them to be a better client for you and allow you to better serve them. Thinking about what you can offer on your website as well as what you're offering on social media is a really good way to do that. We also want to consider the role that email plays in helping us to build that relationship, but also to sustain it over the long term.

Erin: Okay, let's talk about the frequency and cadence of emails. There's a meme going around that says, "Hey, I know I bought a toaster from you once. It doesn't mean I want to hear from you every single day." How do you measure that? How do you find not only your comfort zone, which could be every day because we've always got something to say, but what you think that the person seeing it in their inbox is going to say, "Okay, I'm going to click on this." What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie: I love the meme example that you shared. We have to put ourselves in the shoes of the toaster company for a minute here and think about, for our audience, for the relationship we already have with them, what is a frequency of hearing from us that they would expect and then tolerate, right? Because what they expect may be lower than what we ideally need to do, but what we don't want to cross is that tolerance threshold, where they're like, "Oh my goodness, get out of here. Mark as spam, delete, unsubscribe." We're trying to avoid that at all costs, so you want to think about that. It's going to be different.

For your established clients, folks you've worked with who already know, like and trust you, you have a little more leeway. You can talk to them a little more frequently. I think every day is still pretty strong. I think we're probably looking at once a week or every other week is really a great place to start to establish yourself and then to test from there more or less frequent. Anything less than every two weeks and people kind of forget who you are when you do pop up. Anything more than that and you have the possibility that, as we mentioned, you may be showing up a little bit more often than they'd like to have you.

Erin: Okay. What might a REALTOR® consider when choosing content channels and formats? Because there are so many out there, Melanie. How do we choose that?

Melanie: There are so many and it can be really stressful. There's a lot of pressure, I think, on us to be everywhere, do everything, be super active on all these different platforms. I would really encourage you to think strategically about a couple different things. The first thing you want to think about is where your audience is. Because if you're showing up every day on TikTok, getting millions of views for your amazing dance moves but none of your audience is there, that doesn't do anything for you. That's a lot of time and effort that you're spending that could be better served actually reaching your audience.

You want to think about that. Where is my audience? The answers to that you can find by looking for the basic social demographics of each of the different platforms. That information is usually pretty easy to find because they want their advertisers to know who they're reaching. As a general rule, if you're going after, high-income professionals, for example, LinkedIn is going to be the best place for you to reach that audience. If you're looking for moms, families, Facebook and Pinterest are going to be two great options for you. Instagram also has a lot of really great demographics that you can dig into based on the data they share and try to identify where are these folks. You could always, of course, pay to reach them through ads, but ideally, we'd like to make sure we're showing up in the places where we could reach them organically. That's the first thing to think of. That's the first one. It's like, where is my audience?

Erin: Right, fish where the fish are.

Melanie: Exactly. We don't want to be fishing in an empty pond or fishing in a pond full of something we're not allowed to catch.

Erin: Right.

Melanie: The other thing you want to think about, though, is like in our analogy here, what kind of fishing do you like to do? Are you a fly fisher? Are you a deep-sea fisher? Are you just a casual shore fisher for bass and trout? That's about as far as my fishing analogy can go here. You want to think about, what is your favorite way to create content? Because here again, I'm coming back to TikTok, if you decide-- you discover that your audience is on TikTok, but you are absolutely averse to being on video, you don't want to be showing your face, you don't want to be dancing, you don't want to be doing lip syncing, then that's not a good match.

What we're looking for is kind of a Venn diagram overlap of, where is your audience and what kind of content do you like to create? How do you like to communicate? Hopefully, we find something that's really in the center there that allows you to create in the way that's comfortable for you and effective, but also allows you to reach the ideal audience. If that overlap isn't as big as you'd like it to be, that's a time to think about the tools or the talent you can add to your team to try to fill that gap.

Erin: That's a great point. Don't feel like you have to do it all yourself. You, for example, are an amazing communicator. I love your speaking and everything that you do, but you don't love, say, the nuts and bolts, the cutting, the editing and that sort of thing. That's where you say, hey, somebody has to be the star of this and somebody has this other set of tools, so you go about finding who has the other set of tools, right?

Melanie: Absolutely, yes. A lot of times the folks that we look to, especially on social media or in marketing, the folks that we're looking to as examples and saying, "I want to create content like that," that person very well may be using a professional photographer. They're not shooting photos on their iPhone. That person may have a whole video crew set up to make their videos look incredible and you may not have access to that. It is important to take a look at who are we setting as our standard, and are we working with the same resources, because tools and talent can make a big difference if you are trying to fill that gap. Hopefully, you're able to find the way you like to communicate. You've got the support of tools and talent that help you do it, and you're able to bring that content into an environment where your audience is ready to consume it.

Erin: Yes, that comfort zone is so important because if it's not comfortable for you, it's not organic and it feels like a drudge, and I think that the audience can pick up on that. What do you think about that?

Melanie: Absolutely. The reality is we got so much to do. Nobody has time to be doing things that make them absolutely miserable because there's something to be said for that. When you show up in a video or in a podcast or in some other environment, you need to bring your whole self. You've got to dial your energy up a little bit. You're a little more animated, a little more movement, a little louder than you might normally be. If you're not feeling it, that's going to come through really quickly. It's going to be obvious that you're not having fun, and that's not a whole heck of a lot of fun to watch or listen to somebody really uncomfortable or really clearly doesn't want to be there.

We want to make sure we're bringing good energy, and sometimes that means we have to change the way that we create content, we might have to change how frequently, and really tapping into, when does your energy work best? Just as a personal example, I know for me, I'm not a morning person. I love coffee; still doesn't help. I'm not a morning person. If I need to show up on video, I need to be animated and wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, morning is not going to be it for me. I'm going to be looking to schedule that filming, hopefully, sometime in the afternoon where I know I've had breakfast, I'm ready to go, I've warmed up and I'm feeling a lot more alive. Those are all things that you want to consider too. When do you do your best writing, or when are you your most alive and animated? Because that might impact when you decide to create the content.

Erin: Melanie, what's the best way to truly find out where your audience is, or do you just put in the work and watch what happens? How do you find that perfect pond, to go back to the fish analogy?

Melanie: All right, we'll do fishing for a little more. The greatest thing to do is to take a look around. If you've got other fishermen, other REALTORS®, other folks in your space who are targeting the same audience you are, they're trying to catch the same fish, take a look and see where they're fishing. Where are they dropping their bait? Where are they spending time? If they're having those conversions, they're having that engagement, that's a good indication that, hey, maybe that fishing hole over there might be perfect for the fish I'm trying to catch, for the audience I'm trying to reach.

The other thing you could do is-- I don't know how far our fishing analogy goes here. Maybe the Fish and Game website has some data about what fish are in which ponds. Our equivalent being you're going to look and see what you can find about that demographic data to see who are the users of these different networks, who's present there, who can you expect to reach. There are some tools that can help you do that too.

A great tool that I love to talk about is SparkToro, Spark T-O-R-O. It's a tool that allows you to plug in some keywords or an account or two on social media that you know is reaching the right audience. Then it will show you the related accounts, the related hashtags, the related podcasts they listen to, all of those different things, to give you a sense of where do these people hang out when they're talking about these key terms that are really important to me.

Erin: Okay, how hard is it to use SparkToro and is it free?

Melanie: There's a free-- there's free search access, so you could start and test it out for free. Then you can also go ahead and upgrade if it's a tool you decide you want to use more regularly or more intensely. What I will say is it's a lot more reasonable than many of the enterprise tools that are out there. You can, of course-- I mean, there are whole agencies you can hire to do social listening and sentiment testing and all kinds of stuff. That's really too much for most of our purposes. A smaller tool like SparkToro that's going to help you identify those audience overlaps is probably just the right size for what most of us are doing.

Erin: Excellent. Okay, I'm going to give it a go. I am. You're known for coming up with creative ways for businesses to engage their audiences. This is what you get hired to speak for, large groups. Now, what would you say to someone who says, "Look, I'm not creative"?

Melanie: First of all, I'd probably take a break and have a little cry because it breaks my heart to hear folks say that. Because the reality is when we're young, when we're kids, there's no fear of not having a good idea. You see your kids-- if you've got little ones, you know they come home with the wildest drawings, the craziest ideas, the best outfit combinations that they've picked all themselves, no fear of embarrassment, no worries about whether it's a good idea. Through schooling, through socialization, we start to become more self-conscious and we start to believe that there are negative consequences for bad ideas. The reality is the stakes on what we're talking about here are very low. We should feel safe to come up with ideas, to talk things out with our team, to discuss the different options without fear of humiliation or professional downfall. We're talking about something that should be fun, communicating with our audience, which we do know how to do.

Most of the time, if we can get through the therapy phase of helping make sure that everyone feels comfortable, it's also about having the right prompt. A lot of times we just focus on-- we have a hang-up like that, "I'm not creative," or I'm just the, blank, person. You focus on just this one thing and you reinforce that idea for yourself. Instead of focusing on why you can't do something or why you're not well-suited to it or why you're not creative, let's switch up the prompt and ask yourself something like, what could I teach my audience? What have I learned that my audience would want to hear? What could I do that would make their lives easier? What kind of information is my audience trying to find or what questions are they asking? Those questions are going to get you to the same result, which is something you can create that they will value, but hopefully it's not sort of digging into those same insecurities that may come from a place of being concerned about the quality of your ideas.

Erin: That would make it a whole lot less scary just to rephrase the prompt, what does my audience want to know? Then you use the tools and stuff that you've mentioned and maybe even like chambers of commerce and the things that are so local and important to the people in that area or where your client is. That's brilliant advice. Yes.

Melanie: Thank you.

Erin: You're welcome. Now, I know as a writer, you've probably had the writer's block, but what about people who get caught up in a creativity slump? Then how do you nudge us ahead?

Melanie: If we're stuck and a new prompt isn't working, like we just talked about, then sometimes it's helpful to just switch things up entirely. I know that sounds a little scary, but there are little things you can do that data and studies have shown us actually help your creativity. Small, simple things like try taking a different route to work in the morning, driving a different road. Try brushing your teeth with your wrong hand. What we're trying to do is get our brain out of a rut and get new inputs for our world. If we're consuming the same things, seeing the same things, it can be hard to come up with new ideas because there's a lot of sameness around us. Even just little ways to expose yourself to new information; listen to some new music, watch something on Netflix that's a totally different genre than you'd normally watch. Just find a way to spice up your inputs a little bit so that you, hopefully, make some new connections between different things that are going to inspire you to create some content.

Erin: All right, how about cutting back on the frequency of it? That can feel like a vacation. If you take away the having to do it, the obligation, then something can become more of the joy that it was meant to be.

Melanie: Absolutely, yes. There's a lot of burnout and fatigue that you can encounter, especially if-- I talked about earlier that once a week or every other week is a great starting point because that's less likely to lead to overwhelm. If you, right out of the gate, commit, "I'm going to do a new episode of my podcast every single day," there's a really good chance you're going to burn yourself out quickly and it's not fun anymore when it becomes an obligation. Yes, absolutely. If what you're feeling is sort of overwhelm and burnout and it's just not fun, that's a good sign that maybe take a step back, take a break or reevaluate the way that you're doing it to see if you can make it a little more approachable and a little more enjoyable again.

Erin: All right. What I'm really getting from this message is if you're a content creator and you pick a day like, say, St. Patrick- no, Cinco de Mayo. Let's pick Cinco de Mayo, and everybody and his dog is posting something about, how do you make a margarita? What's your favorite? How hot do you like your nachos? All that kind of thing. Is there some way that you can flip around something that everybody's posting about and make it unique, make it matter to the person who is digesting or receiving that content, Melanie? What would you do?

Melanie: Absolutely. Those types of posts that you talked about, they can feel like a lot of fun because we tend to get responses, but what they're not is really differentiated. If everyone's out there posting, what's your favorite topping for a taco, or what kind of nachos or margarita are you having today, we kind of blend in in this sea of content sameness and that's not what we're looking for.

The thing to think about is, what makes my perspective different? What is it about your perspective that can change the way this is? Because only you have lived your life, only you run your business, only you live in the place that you live, only you know the people you know. What you might consider is what if you were to poll all of your clients and ask what their favorite Mexican restaurants are in the area. That would be very unique. That's something that no one else can do. They don't have your clients, they don't live in your area. Even if they do live in your area, bring your own flavor into it. What are your favorite places to go around the neighborhood? What is the best meal you've had in a particular food genre that you can speak to and speak to folks who are in your neighborhood? Because the best place to take your kids for all-you-can-eat tacos in the neighborhood is so much more relevant to your neighbors than which of these toppings can you not live without on your nachos.

Erin: That's fantastic. When you think about it, if you were at the dog park and you just sat down on a bench next to someone, you wouldn't turn to them and say, "Hey, what's your favorite margarita today for Cinco de Mayo?" You might seem a little off, to say the least. You would ask something of the person you're connecting with on social media just as you would in-person and maybe reframe it like that?

Melanie: That's right. Yes, act like a human. The example you gave is actually perfect. If someone sat down next to you at the dog park and they turned and said very robotically, "What is your favorite topping on nachos?" He could be like, "Who is this robot, and which of my neighbors have they replaced here?" It doesn't feel natural. Yes, think of it that way. What's the conversation you would have? If you did run into a client and you were talking about that holiday or that topic, what would that conversation be like, and try to have your content align more closely to that.

Because the other thing you don't want to do is have all of your content giving out a certain feeling, a certain vibe, a certain emotion that doesn't align with how you actually show up in the real world. Just because everyone else is posting about margaritas doesn't mean that you have to be the party gal posting the same thing if that's not how you are, if that's not what you're interested in. Maybe you're someone who really likes history and you want to talk about the history of the holiday, or you want to talk about maybe someone in the community who has had a huge impact because of something having to do with that holiday. There's ways for you to look at it through your own lens and not feel like you've got to show up looking like everybody else because you're not.

Erin: You've given us so much food for thought so far and actually made us hungry at the same time. Thank you very much. I'm wanting nachos. Of course, you've written a couple of excellent books that are also filled with all kinds of great information, including Prove It, and the one that we're discussing today, The Content Fuel Framework or How to Generate Unlimited Story Ideas. Now in it, along with all kinds of great insight like we're hearing today on content and creativity, you share a system for creative brainstorming. Okay, how does the system work?

Melanie: It's a really good question. What I find when I'm working with clients, when I'm working especially with folks who are doing their day job and don't have to spend as much time marketing their day job, the idea of coming up with content can be really challenging. It feels like a foreign concept. It's not our day-to-day. Most often what I find is people get stuck because they're trying to think of too much at once. They want that one strike of genius, that one lightning strike, light bulb moment, the muse and just the right amount of coffee and to have something just magically happen in full.

What a content idea really is, is it's actually two things. When we break it down to its smallest parts, it becomes a lot easier for us to tackle that challenge of coming up with an idea. That first part that we want to think of is the focus. What is this content about? What is the story, the theme, the topic, the message? Those are all synonyms you might use. What are we actually trying to communicate here? Once we have that answered, then we can ask the question, what's the best format to bring that to life?

The example I like to give here is the reason we start with focus is because we've all gotten a package in the mail that the item inside was nowhere near the appropriate size for the box that was chosen. Somebody decided how to deliver that to you before they decided the content of what was inside, and the mismatch was really obvious to us. It creates a lot of waste, a lot of filler, and we don't feel good about it at the end of the day. We can do the same thing with our content if we're not careful. If we decide, "We got to do a video. It's going to be incredible. What are we going to say? I don't know. We'll figure that out later," then the video we end up with probably has a lot of filler, it's probably not very focused because we're deciding on the package before we decide the content.

When we start with our focus, what are we going to say, then we ask what's the best package to put this in so that we're going to deliver it effectively to our audience. Whether that is a video, a podcast, whether it's an infographic or something else entirely.

Erin: I will think of you every time I open a box and there's another tiny box or it's just filled with packing peanuts or airbags. Just filler--

Melanie: I don't know if that's good.

Erin: No. No, it's not, but it's a brilliant analogy, Melanie. Thank you. The book also walks readers through 10 different ways to bring your stories to life and the formats that they could take. Okay, so let's explore that a little bit too, like the base prompt.

Melanie: That's right, so the focus being what's our angle here. There's a lot of different angles that you could take, and as you said, in the book, I walk through 10 different ones just to give you some options to start. Some that are really common and that would work really well in this space would be people-focused content. Looking around to say, not just myself, I don't want only content that focuses on myself, but who are the people around me that I could create content about that would help me communicate my values, my job, my community to my audience. It might be people on your team. It might be the mayor of the neighborhood. It might be the person who's been running every morning for 20 years and knows the nature in the area better than anyone else. You know who those people are. That's the question to be asking. Who are the people that I could tell stories about that help convey this idea?

People-focused content is some of the most relatable stuff. It's not the only way to tell stories. You could tell stories about the history of a particular topic or an area, you can give people instructions on how to achieve something. There's lots of other options, but I think if you start with people-focused content, you're going to be on your way to creating some really engaging, really interesting and relatable content.

Erin: That's amazing. Okay, and to get a little bit more black-and-white about it, how about maps? What about using maps to do this?

Melanie: Absolutely. Maps are a really cool option. I think most of us default to writing written content or video if that's where you're comfortable, but there are some other formats that are so, so valuable. Maps is one that I think is really underrated, and given our expertise here, it's a perfect vehicle for us to deliver content.

We made the example before for Cinco de Mayo that we were going to highlight some of our favorite Mexican restaurants in the area, our favorite tapas places. We're going to really spice it up. Well, most people would probably think to just deliver that as a written list, but how much more valuable would it be if it were delivered as a map? Even just a basic map that shows where these places are, it's going to be a lot more valuable for our audience when we're talking about geographic content all of the time.

The same could be true for that people-focused content. I mentioned the person who runs laps every single morning in the neighborhood. I bet you they could create something really cool. Here's a two-mile trail. Here's a five-mile trail. Here's a 10-mile trail. Describing that step-by-step would make for some really boring content, but if it were on a map, it suddenly becomes something that's really useful.

Erin: Yes, digestible in a whole different kind of way. You mentioned briefly, history. What about our own histories? What about writing blogs kind of about yourself, not going into too much minutia or self-aggrandizing, but letting people know just who you are so they feel a connection with you, Melanie?

Melanie: Absolutely. At the end of the day, this is a relationship business. We're trying to build relationships with clients that hopefully last them through even more than one home. We want to be there for those important moments. In order to do that, they have to know and like us. We've got to be able to help them understand who we are and what's important to us. Being able to talk about the things that are important to you, your hobbies, your interests, your values, help them understand not just the services that you offer, but who you are as a person.

A great example of this is the REALTOR® that we worked with in buying our first home, Lois. We were looking at REALTORS® in the area and a lot of sameness, like we were talking about, a lot of similar content about how to look for your first home or whatever the case may be, but Lois' specialty was she talked about things to do for families. She specialized in helping families find their first home. My husband and I had a little one, and so seeing her content, knowing that she's focused on what's important to her, family bonding and family time, helped us see that she was a little bit different than the other options out there and she was the right fit for us. She's out there sharing content like- not happy spring or it's the first day of spring, but a great spring activity is picking berries with your kids. Here are my favorite berry-picking orchards in the area that are great for kids under 10, that they're very walkable, for example. That is so much more valuable than just a generic happy spring graphic. What can I do with that? Nothing.

Finding a way to tap into what makes you special. If you're a dog person, find a way to work dogs and dog parks and dog-walking trails and whatever else into it. If you're a music person, talk about the history of music in the area. There's ways that you can examine the areas around you, the people around you and the work that you do through the lens of what makes you truly special. That's what's going to allow people to connect with you on a deeper level.

Erin: Wow. Elevating your personal brand, if you will, and going deeper at the same time. Just brilliant. Okay. How can we ensure, Melanie, as entrepreneurs and REALTORS®, that we're creating content strategies that connect with people and support our business goals and not just content for business sake? I think you've touched on many of them; make it personal, use a map. I think the message has to be not me, me, me, but what do you need from me? What do I think is interesting to you?

Melanie: Absolutely. Yes, the example I gave of Lois is thinking, what do my families need? What do families in our area need? That's the driving force behind a lot of the content that she creates to connect with families who may be looking for homes in the area. You can do the same thing. Really focus on, what is it that your clientele are looking for? What are the challenges that they face? What are the problems that you can help them overcome? What are the questions that they have? If you're keeping your audience's needs at the center of the work that you're creating, it's a really good chance you're not going to get too far off-track and too self-serving.

If you do need some sort of formula, if you're a rules person, the 70-30 rule is something that comes up a lot. The idea of that at least 70% of your content should be for your audience, and then you can allow 30% to be for you, more self-serving, more of a call to action for your business. What we want to do is provide enough value that it's okay that we ask for things for ourselves on occasion. If we are only doing that me, me, me, there's not a lot of reason for folks to stick around. What are they getting out of the exchange? That 70-30 balance, if you need a goal, is a good place to be.

Erin: That is so brilliant, the 70-30. Give, give, give 70%, and then the 30% can be a gentle ask. It's so smart, and it works in real life relationships too. If you only call somebody when you want something, pretty soon they're going to see your number and go, "I'm busy." That is just a great lesson. Thank you so much for that, Melanie.

Okay. Now building long-term relationships with clients is critical in real estate, obviously. You're still in touch with Lois and you bring her up. How can REALTORS® be intentional with their strategies to not just attract new leads, but to help nurture and convert those leads and then ultimately retain them as clients? How do you do that?

Melanie: I think we've mentioned a few different approaches to creating content, talking about what your audience needs. It's also really important to feel comfortable talking about things that are not directly related to what you do. Coming back to that 70-30 rule. Most of your clients, once they're done working with you, hopefully, assuming everything goes well, they may not need to work with you for a while, and so those direct, ask-focused content might not be what they're looking for, it might not be the right time. You need to be providing enough value that it's worth sticking around.

I know we talked earlier about that threshold of, like your toaster company, how much is too much to be in the inbox. If your tools give you the option to segment your audience, to separate between you've got your hot leads, maybe your active clients, and then you've got your just warm ones, the ones that are kind of in the background simmering a little bit, that tiny burner in the back, the simmering ones, we just need to keep it warm. Reaching out to them less frequently with more audience-focused content is a great way for you to stay top-of-mind without overwearing your welcome, and making sure that they don't forget who you are, but they don't get bugged by you too much either. That's one option is to treat those audiences differently. Who are you maintaining in that simmering burner in the back, and who are you actively trying to fire up to make that conversion?

Erin: How do you think content marketing can help REALTORS® to build trust and credibility? I mean, rampant consumer skepticism. It's something that we discussed actually with Nature of Things, Anthony Morgan, in Episode 47, and it is real.

Melanie: Absolutely is. The environment that we are all operating in as REALTORS® or even just as business owners, it is some of the most skeptical consumer experiences that we have ever had. The data shows time and again that year after year, unfortunately, the world gives our customers a lot more reason to be skeptical, a lot more reason to doubt what they're hearing. Just look at your latest- your email inbox or your missed calls list, maybe your text inbox these days, and you'll see the spam, you'll see the reasons that they're not trusting.

That could be upsetting, but there's a way to see it as an opportunity. That in this world that our clients are operating in and our prospects are operating in, everyone around them is giving them so many reasons to doubt, and we can use our content to show that we are who we say we are, that we do what we say we do and that we can be trusted to help them with this problem that they're trying to solve.

Content gives you a chance to communicate the truth behind your business claims, the ability to really show that they don't have to take your word for it, you've got testimonials to back it up, or they don't have to take your word for it, they can see it themselves. They don't have to take your word for it, you've got accolades to prove it. Really finding ways to use that content to say, "I'm bringing you the evidence. I'm bringing you the receipts. I know there's a lot of reasons to be distrustful, there's a lot of reasons to be skeptical, but I'm going to help ease those concerns so you know you can trust me."

Erin: Terrific wisdom. Thank you so much, Melanie. All right. What three things do you want people-- what three toppings? No. What three things, Melanie, do you want people to take away from our discussion today?

Melanie: Three important things for you to remember is at the end of the day, your story matters. People work with you because they want to hear what you have to say, they want to connect with you and they want to work with you specifically, so bring yourself into your content. It's so incredibly important.

I also want you to remember that your content should serve your audience, not just your business needs. We want to make sure that the stuff is for our audience, that it's adding value to them so that they see us as someone who adds value to their life.

The last thing I want you to remember is that have some fun. This stuff is supposed to be fun. If it's feeling like a drag, if you're dreading doing it, it's a good indication to you that maybe something isn't quite right for you strategically. Change up your process, change up your content, try recording in a new way or a new day, and really just find a way to bring that spark back. Because when you're having fun, that's going to be obvious in your content.

Erin: Oh, that is so good. It reminds me of something a trainer told me once, that when you were a kid at the playground, did you stay on one machine for 30 minutes? No, you didn't. You ran around and tried all the machines and you just had a great time. I think your message is such a great reminder to bring the fun back into it and come from a place of joy where you can.

Melanie: Absolutely. It makes it a whole lot more fun because if it feels like a drag, man, it's just, why are we doing it, right?

Erin: Exactly. What a great conversation. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie: Thanks for having me, thanks for chatting.

Erin: Oh, so much great content there from Melanie, so many messages on how to get your messages across in really unique ways, ways that resonate with you, ways that are about you.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with technical support from Rob Whitehead. For more real estate resources, tools and insights, visit us anytime at CREA.ca. If you like this conversation, our 50th, if you can believe it, why not explore the rest of our episodes, from the art of negotiation, to AI, sustainable business practices and more. We cover all things Canadian real estate with a wide array of exciting guests. Don't forget to rate or review the show. This is where the 30%, where we're asking you to do something, we always appreciate it, so thank you.

I'm your host, Erin Davis. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Everyone’s been put to the test in their career. On this episode of REAL TIME, we invite two members of the REALTOR® community, Anu Joshi-Mehendale and Dusko Sremac, to reflect on their top lessons learned in real estate as they approach a decade of experience in their respective practices.

Get advice to help you minimize mistakes, set yourself up for success, and stay motivated in your own practice – new or established.

Transcript

[music]

Erin Davis: Question: What do you wish someone would have told you when you were starting out your career? Would you have done anything differently based on their advice? I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Our guests today are Anu Joshi-Mehendale and Dusko Sremac, two very different REALTORS® from two very different backgrounds. What do they have in common? Like any entrepreneur, they've both experienced their share of trials and victories building a business in real estate. Are you ready for some lessons learned? Let's dive in.

[music]

Erin: First off, thanks to you both for joining REAL TIME. Let's do a quick round of introductions. Who are you, where you're from, and how you got your start in real estate?

Anu Joshi-Mehendale: Thank you, Erin. My name is Anu Joshi-Mehendale and I'm a real estate broker based out of Caledon, Ontario. Just finished 10 years in the industry, so very happy to be here. Got started out fairly early. I actually interned at a property management company the year after high school, and I was going to be starting university. It was a suggestion from a parent to go ahead and get my real estate license. Here we are 10 years later.

Erin: Okay. In this case, father knows best. It was your dad, right? He's the one who suggested it?

Anu: Yes, it was. That's right.

Erin: Okay. I'd love to get into a little later on why he suggested this for you, but we're going to meet our next guest now. Dusko, go ahead.

Dusko Sremac: Hey, my name is Dusko Sremac with the Real Estate Partners at Real Broker here in Calgary. I have been licensed for almost seven years. The way that I got into real estate was we started investing into real estate about eight to nine years ago. By trade, I'm a journeyman electrician. I was always around real estate and fell in love, and then I ended up quitting my job and going full-time into real estate.

Erin: Okay. Nice to meet you both. I love that you're both at just about the decade mark or thereabouts. We're going to explore not only how you got here, but where you're going. I'm really excited about this conversation today. Caledon, Calgary, it's fantastic. It's just very organic today. Let's dive into it. Anu, as you mentioned, it was your dad who suggested to you that you get into this. Why? Why did he suggest it for you? Was it something in the family or what led you there?

Anu: Yes. My dad actually got his real estate license several years ago, and that's still on his docket for an eventual retirement career. Now I'm happy to bring him into my team. He's actually working with me now. I don't think we saw all of that when he first suggested that I get my real estate license. I think there's a lot of things in the real estate industry that are attractive to a lot of people. Obviously, the promise of flexible schedules and the ability to earn, great potential for earning amongst many other things. I think there was a lot of things that led him to invite me to get my license and it's been a really, really steep learning curve since then for sure.

Erin: Dusko, you didn't come to real estate just like it was in the family, like Anu. As a matter of fact, I love the story of you being at the airport and just as you put it, blowing up the bridges. Tell us that story because that's one of what Oprah used to call an aha moment. Tell us how you got there.

Dusko: At the time I was involved in real estate for a few years, picking up rentals, looking at building infills. I had a business partner, and I remember after Christmas break 2017, it was January 7th, 4.30 AM, I'm in our terminal. My bags are checked in and I just sat there for about 15 minutes thinking, "This does not make me happy. If I'm going to do this, I have to go all in."

I remember asking security to get my bag back, got my bags, called my girlfriend, now wife, and I said, "Hey, where are you?" She said, "I'm just pulling into the driveway." I said, "Turn around, come back. I need to come home because I quit." That was the TSN turning point for me.

Erin: No kidding. Okay. That was a real moment for you. I love that it came out of the blue as you got your bag back and all of that. It's a fascinating story. We're going to be talking now about what do you wish someone had told you when you were starting out? Is there anything that you would have done differently? We're going to start with you, Dusko.

Dusko: I think just having realistic expectations of what it takes to build a steady, consistent, strong business. I think it's so easy to get caught up in social media and the way that our industry has shifted where there are models that are less sales and more recruiting. Now you get sold on this vision of success and what success means to you or what it should mean to you. It doesn't really matter what fields you're coming from and the level of experience. It does take a long time to build a strong, consistent business. I wish someone would have told me from day one because my expectation was to go from zero to 100 sales in year one. That's just not realistically how it works.

Erin: How did you get that impression? Where did you get most of the ideas of real estate that you had when you asked for your bag back?

Dusko: I think like many agents now, social media. You see all the sales, you see the upside, you see the income, the freedom, but you're not seeing the 10 years of experience and sleepless nights and working 24-hour days for years and years of building it in the background.

Erin: Okay. You were also around someone who had bought a bunch of properties too and that led you to believe, well, I can do this, right?

Dusko: Yes. I remember my first boss when I was 21, I think at the time he owned 50, 60, 70-plus units, duplexes, commercial spaces. I just saw the amount of wealth and opportunity that was built. It took him 20, 30 years to get there. I just knew that this is something that I want to do long-term and no regrets, that's for sure.

Erin: Good. Okay. Anu, what did you go in thinking when you started this? You went to school for this too, right?

Anu: I actually went to university for communications. That's what I joined in. I ended up switching my major to political science. That's led me to participate in organized real estate right now. I participate at the local, provincial, and national levels, the public policy angle of things. For real estate, at the time, we had a real estate college and every REALTOR® getting licensed in Ontario at the time went through the same program. It was six courses to get your license. I did do that while I was in my, I think, first year or second year of university.

I started pretty early. In terms of expectations and stuff, I don't remember even following agents on Instagram. It wasn't a big thing back then when I was first getting started. Instagram was, but not the REALTOR® profiles and the flashy agents and stuff. When I got into it and started doing it seriously, I realized that there's a lot more to it. Just like any other business, if you want to be successful in the real estate industry, you have to put the work in. My colleague here mentioned, the 20-hour workdays and all of that, that was not something that is readily available information.

We learn a lot on the job and a lot of that comes from experience, actually doing the deals. When I was 19 and had my real estate license, nobody was giving me their house to sell. I spent a lot of time working with mentors, with senior agents, just following around my broker of record to see what he was doing at the time. Just to learn more and more about transactions, more about the industry, and get all of that experience even before I touched my first deal. Nobody told me that it would be that much learning before I started, even in the realm of earning anything.

Erin: Yes. I think that it's almost like anything, right? Dusko, you come from an electrical background. You can read all the books that there are, all the manuals, but until you actually get in there, any career, and I come from radio, you could study radio all you want, but it's not until you swear on the air that first time that you learn that you're not supposed to do it. You know what I mean. You have to make your mistakes and learn those things.

Dusko: The one difficult part is when we're looking at even the trades, electrical, when I left, we had a 50-person crew, and it is life and death when you're working on large gear, big voltages, but you always have the support and supervision of those that have a lot more experience than you.

In real estate, you get licensed, whether you have 10 years or no experience, you can do the same amount of transactions. You have the same power to do the same deals. I think this is a very difficult industry because there is nobody looking over your shoulder to help you through a transaction. Brokers are there, of course, but no one can guide and lower the liability except for you, the agent.

Erin: If I'm hearing this correctly from both of you, it's your responsibility to find someone who is going to show you the ropes. Were you able to do that? We'll start with you, Anu.

Anu: Yes, for sure. I've actually been very lucky to have mentors in my life at various points in my career. I'm a firm believer in the saying that once a student is ready, the teacher will appear. I've been lucky. Obviously, I had to seek out those opportunities, but they did show up in accordance with my hard work and my dedication. I think that holds a lot of weight.

What you're putting into it, you will eventually get out. Maybe not right away, but eventually, yes. For me, that did come in the way of mentors, people that showed me right from wrong. Even now in my career, I have people in my life that will tell me, "Anu, that's a stupid thing to do." I'm thankful for that. It's not so great to hear it in the moment, but that professional experience that somebody else has, someone senior to me in experience and in the industry, can guide me.

I am extremely lucky to have that. Even to new REALTORS®, if you don't know what you're doing, it's all right. None of us did. We learned on the job. The capacity to learn and the capacity to adapt and the willingness to learn, I think, will make your trajectory better. It definitely did that for me.

Erin: I'm excited to tell you, we have a Working REALTOR® episode in the works right now about mentorship coming up. You're preaching to the choir here, Anu. I see that Dusko is also nodding his head there. I think you want to add to the conversation about mentorship.

Dusko: I think as a whole, as an industry, we need to come together and help one another. If I'm receiving an offer, even, and I know that there's things that are being left out, I'm still going to advise and help out that other agent and say, "Hey, maybe look at these two sections. They were left blank. Maybe consider adding A, B, C," or guiding them in the right direction as to who they should be speaking with.

Again, it's super tough. Like Anu said, you have to strive and go out of your way to find that mentorship. Thankfully, I was able to join a team where I think that I probably saved three to five years of struggling. My education was very much fast-tracked.

Erin: Anu, interestingly, and I mentioned this right off the top, how differently you've chosen to go your routes. You're not into the large team idea. You know that you're better off alone. That's a really powerful thing to realize, isn't it?

Anu: Yes, for sure. I think that came through a lot of exploration on my end. It didn't just hit me one day. I had to go through all of-- well, I started off as a solo agent. I did end up joining a team. I learned a lot from that and the team lead became one of my mentors for several years after that as well. I learned a lot there. I realized about myself, the way that I work, the level of professionalism that I expect from myself and from others, the best way sort of forward was for me to be a solo agent.

That comes from reflection. I think that the business model for a team is fantastic and it works for a lot of people. I think solo agents, that model also works for a lot of different people, but it really comes down to who you are as a person and what kind of business it is that you want to build. A lot of our personal traits show up in our businesses, whether it's positive or negative. Having that sort of self-awareness of who you are, what you bring to the table, what your weaknesses are too, what you can't do and bringing in people that can eventually serve your clients because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

We're not in a house-selling business. We're in the people service business. How can I serve my clients to the best of my ability? How can I facilitate transactions? How can I help them make comfortable decisions with often the biggest purchases of their life? A lot of it just comes down to a lot of self-reflection. Who do I want to be? How do I want to show up in my business? It's not just a business question. It's more of an existential question. Asking it early on will make the rest of your business building smooth sailing.

Erin: Dusko, what do you have to say about that?

Dusko: Very different businesses. The day I got licensed, I already knew I did not want to be a solo agent. I wanted to grow a team and that was since day one. Looking at it from a business standpoint, it's more what is scalable and I can't scale myself. I recognize that it is a people business and I do have a fiduciary duty. At the end of the day, nobody cares if I'm busy or sick or having a bad day. People need to see homes and deals need to get done.

For us, we started our team when I had less than 12 months of experience and we've gone from having two agents to over 30 agents. Obviously, six years later, we do about 500 transactions a year in our local market. A big part of that growth was just finding the right people and building a very strong culture.

Erin: Now we've talked about the first 10 years, starting out, building, as you say, Dusko, and learning and making mistakes, Anu, you referred to. A little bit of truth or dare and we're all out of dares. How about some truths? Tell us, if you don't mind, about a big mistake. This is not to embarrass you but to make sure that other people learn from it. Go ahead, Anu, I'm going to ask you to go first.

Anu: I had a near miss, it felt like it could have gone really, really negative, but luckily it didn't, so there's a happy ending to the story. I was selling a condo to a friend of mine and they were looking for two parking spots, which is sometimes very difficult to find. We ended up finding a place with two parking spots and forgive me for getting a little technical, but one of the parking spots was titled and the other was exclusive use in a condo.

What happened when it was, I believe it was the day of closing, they called me and said, "Anu, I thought we had two parking spots and our lawyer is saying we don't have the two." I was like, "What are you talking about?" "We looked at this, we looked at the status certificate together. We went through this together, you have two parking spots." They at this point were panicking because they spoke to the property manager, they spoke to the lawyer and they were like, "No, we don't have two parking spots." I said, "Okay, you know what? Give me an hour, we're going to figure this out."

I hung up the phone with my client and immediately started crying. This is not something-- I mean, I can laugh about it now, seven or eight years later, but at the time, it felt devastating because there was an ever so slight possibility that I may have missed something or we may have done something incorrectly or what have you. I spent that hour going through the status certificate, tears in my eyes and trying to find where is this exclusive use. The property manager at the time for the building that they bought was new, so they didn't necessarily know what was going on.

I did end up finding it, found the deeded spot, found the exclusive use spot. It ended up that they did have the two parking spots, everything was resolved, the client was happy, everything was taken care of. That was a very, very close call. That taught me that always, always, always be very diligent. To this day, due diligence is first and foremost the most primary thing that we have to do for our clients.

Erin: Good. I'm glad it turned out okay for you. Jeez. All right, Dusko, what about you?

Dusko: The appropriate ones, okay? Two really quick ones. One is ask for help early. I remember writing one of my first offers, someone walked me through it. Amazing. That weekend I'm writing another offer, but not on a detached home, now it's on a condo. I spent hours writing it up, trying to save it, buying titles, getting everything submitted. I end up submitting the offer and I get this phone call from the listing agent. She has about 20 years of experience, I have about 20 days of experience.

She goes, "Hey, is this your first deal?" I'm like, "Yes, it is." She's like, "Yes. You wrote this on the wrong contract." Now I've wasted four hours. Next time, definitely after that, I asked for help very early on the process.

Tthe other one is double-check with your clients if they're joking or not. I had a home inspection, the client's looking out in the backyard and goes, "Wow, a trampoline. I wish the trampoline was staying in the deal." I'm like, "Oh, mental note." I call the agent after the home inspection. We waive conditions, but I go, "I'm going to buy that trampoline for my client from the sellers." I buy it. Possession day is here. We're doing a final walkthrough.

The client goes, "The trampoline's here." I'm like, "Yes." He's like, "Why did they leave that here?" I go, "Why do you sound so disappointed? You were so excited that during the home inspection, I bought it for you. That's your trampoline." He goes, "What am I going to do with a trampoline?" It was the most uncomfortable one minute of explaining to him that he now owns a trampoline ever. Now I always double-check and I go, "You're sure you want the trampoline? This is not a joke." It's like, "No, we want it." Moving forward, I double-check with everybody. I asked for help very early in the process.

Erin: Okay. Oh, the good old saying, if you lose, don't lose the lesson, but your heart was in the right place, even if the trampoline, it turns out wasn't. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Let's flip it over to the positive. What was a big milestone for you? They ask movie stars, when did you know you'd made it, but what was a milestone and it doesn't have to be material. It could be something spiritual. It could just be like, "I'm on top of the world." How about you Anu, what was your milestone?

Anu: I'm not great at celebrating my achievements. I'll just say that right off the bat, but something that was life-changing for me in my career, as I know it is in my first year and a half or so, I was actually doing a full-time job in marketing. During that time, I was trying to do real estate part-time, but I had this epiphany and I truly believed that if I was going to give this my all, that's the only way I'd ever succeed.

That summer, I still remember when I said, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to let go of this job and I'm going to go headfirst full-time into real estate. It's just going to be swim or sink at that point. Sink or swim." I'm still swimming. It wasn't easy, but making that move really early on my career really helped. Of course, I was living at home at the time, full disclosure, I was still at home at the time. I didn't have to worry about a mortgage payment or a rent payment or anything like that, which was huge.

With that support from my parents, I was able to take that leap. If I hadn't taken it, then I probably would have been stuck debating between this part-time full-time situation, but I'm so thankful that I was able to do that and everything that came after that. I'm a very big proponent of doing real estate full-time, also any business full-time, a lot of respect for people that do side hustles. That's just my personal mentality that go all in.

Erin: Yes. Dusko, your milestone moment.

Dusko: I think it was just over two years ago, my son was born. I think that really changed perspective and priorities for me and my business. I'm extremely competitive in everything and anything. I cannot play games with anybody because I'm the worst loser as well.

I remember the first four, five years of my career, the only thing that mattered was making the top producer list and where our team would rank. That's the most important thing every single month. As soon as my son was born, it shifted towards, "Okay, how do we grow the business, but how do we also prioritize family time and our families?" At a similar time, my business partner also had his first kid.

We were going through the same transition at the same time, which is good. I can honestly say in the last two years, I don't remember the last time I looked at a top producer board. I don't care about what other people are doing. I've gone all in on just focusing in on our families and our business. You'd think that business would fall, but each year we've still had growth.

Erin: I just love the stories that you tell of taking the leap and there's the bridge for you in both very different ways, but Dusko, having a family and changing priorities does not necessarily mean changing the goals, does it?

Dusko: No, and I think you can change the schedule up. There's ways to become more efficient and prioritize the important events at work and at home. For me, for instance, we don't do lunches anymore, meaning we're not going to take random coffees or lunches with other agents because again, at the end of the day, what is top priority? Top priority is running our day-to-day business, taking out clients and family time. There's very little that we sacrifice on the family side. We just have to be extra efficient. We're still working long days, there's still 20-hour days, but we're always making time for family every single day.

Erin: It would seem to me, Anu, that that would be one of the real benefits of being part of a team of a brokerage. How do you manage that? How do you handle when something happens in your own personal life or you decide you want to do something or go away or just have some Anu time? What do you do? How do you handle that?

Anu: Absolutely, a great question. Here's where teams do come in. Full disclosure, I do work with buyer's agents. I work with my partners that will take over certain parts of my deal. I have a virtual assistant. I have a grassroots assistant that helps me with certain things. It's a very different team setup, but I agree with Dusko that the business that we built, scaling is an issue.

I ran into that much later in my business, about halfway through when I was realizing I reached my potential. I couldn't replicate myself. I couldn't show more than six clients a day or what have you. There is a cap for an individual. The natural next step is to build a system. Build out a system, have team members that participate in executing that. I know Dusko does that very well on a very mega level with his very large team. I do that on a much smaller level. It looks a little bit different for me, but yes, there is delegation involved.

There is other teammates that have that expertise that step in. At the end of the day, my job is to service my clients. How I do that, how I facilitate that is going to be up to the system that I build. I think Dusko brought up a great point as well in terms of family time.

Early on in my career, and even until very recently, I found myself working very, very long hours. That is something that I think in real estate or in any business to be successful, you have to be agreeable to that because that's what you're signing up for. I think you can be an average agent, you can be an average business owner, you can be an average anybody, but if you want to reach the top, you want to reach the heights of success, whatever that might mean for you, it might mean crazy transactions. It might mean higher gross commissions, what have you, whatever your measurement is to reach that, you need to be putting in work.

You need to be putting in the effort, the time that it takes to learn that art, I can call it an art now after 10 years, that all takes a lot of effort right off the get-go. If you're willing to put that in, I do think it's extremely rewarding. One of the things that we talked about earlier is the promise of this industry is, for example, flexible schedules. Some agents, maybe not as experienced, would say, "Oh, you get to make your own schedules and have your own time."

If you want to be doing a certain number of deals, you're earning a certain amount of money, you actually have to work a lot more than is expected, a lot more than the average agent will tell you. If you want to be productive, whatever that means to you, you have to put in the work. Eventually, there is an output. Eventually, you will have flexibility, you will have stability in your business, you will have all of these things, but it does take time to build that. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of learning, and a lot of inputs to be able to achieve that.

Erin: You both talk about starting basically in the past decade or so, and you've got all this experience now and wisdom under your belts with so much more ahead of you. Looking back, what opportunities do new REALTORS® have, new ones that might be become harder as you get more established? What do you think, Anu?

Anu: I think that new REALTORS®, the biggest thing that they have is that they're not yet committed to any one thing. I used a lot of my time up front when I was new in the industry when I was learning. All I was doing was learning. I barely transacted in my first two years. I was just learning and learning, learning different things to do. I used to shadow senior agents. I used to hold open houses for them. I used to do paperwork for them. I was literally learning everything grassroots.

My colleague and I, we talked about doing the door knocking, doing the online legion. There's so many ways to get business in our industry. Learn as much as you can and then figure something out that makes sense to you, that works for you, and that you can commit to, and then take that forward. I think a lot of agents and we meet agents all the time on the other side of the deal or at professional events and whatnot.

It happens to everyone. It's human nature. There's this stagnation, not just of themselves and their business, but also sometimes their mindset. "I've been doing this long, I know what I'm doing," that kind of thing. I am a lifelong student. If there is something new in the industry, there's constantly changes happening. It is my job as a real estate broker to learn about it, to figure out how to implement that in the best possible way to serve my clients because, at the end of the day, that's the game that we're playing.

I think that that takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of reflection and it also takes awareness that even though you know everything up until this point, technology is changing. The industry is changing. People are changing. The way we do business is changing. Marketing is changing. Online lead gen is changing. The only thing that is guaranteed is that change. If you're able to keep up, like Dusko mentioned it before, this is where the agents that are in it, full-time, full effort, get to shine because we're doing this every day. We're reading the news. We know what's happening in other countries, other regions. We are using all of that knowledge together to help us achieve our end goal of servicing our clients.

Erin: Dusko, what experience can a newer REALTOR® have that helps you as you move on that you might not have now at this point in your career?

Dusko: First off, Anu looked at my notes and she stole my answer. I have very little to add now, but I'll expand on what Anu said because I agree with her 100%. I think the luxury that a newer agent would have, there's two. One, you should not have very high overhead. You're not going to have an admin, you're not going to have the desk fees, the advertisement budget that a senior agent would have.

Second thing is time. When I'm looking at what my open schedule looks like day to day, I have very little time now. When I first started, I was three to four hours a day on Tom Ferry or on YouTube trying to learn scripting and how to be better. I was asking senior agents. I was door-knocking. I was trying to do online legion shooting videos. If I could go back or if I could advise a new agent is figure out what you like to do because everything works.

Door-knocking works, online legion works, social media works, but it's like what do you want to do and what will you stay consistent with? Because I find a lot of agents, they'll say, "Oh, well, I saw Anu door-knocking and she did 10 deals off of that. I'm going to door-knock." I would rather do no deals than door-knock. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm door-knocked out and same thing with social media. You're starting to see this huge push. We saw it for a few years on TikTok and Instagram. Now it's shifted towards long form and YouTube. What's next? Again, it's what you're going to be happy with and what you're going to be consistent with.

Anu: Those were so great. Honestly, I will tag onto that. In terms of finding out what it is that you can commit to, I think that's a great point. I think people that are new in this industry put too much weight on what's out there. Also, going after the new shiny thing. TikTok was really shiny a little while ago. Every agent was on TikTok, and before that, it was something else, and before that, it was something else, and tomorrow it'll be something new. We have to find a balance between keeping up obviously with the trends, but building your business based on you knowing where you can show up and how you can show up.

Dusko: I remember when I started, I looked at-- we had one of the top teams in the world, in our marketplace, and we still do. I saw, well, he's doing billboards and he has this type of website and this is what he's doing, so I'm just going to replicate that. Well, if you have 50 to 100 agents in that budget, you can replicate that and you'll have somewhat similar results, but not really. I get phone calls weekly of agents asking me about what websites we run, what we do for PPC, what we do for SEO.

In the back of my head, I'm like, this is a 7 to 30-year play. When we're making a business decision, we're not making it for ROI three months from now, three years from now. I'm thinking, what's the return in 5 to 10 years on all these big decisions? I feel like so many people just think three to six months, but they need to be thinking three to six years because that's what really compounds a strong business.

Anu: I agree. There are two different hats. There is the hat as the registered REALTOR®, there's the agent, and then as the business owner. As you start to scale and you start to grow, I think you have to also balance what-- I mean, you mentioned that your schedule's all booked up. A lot of it is going to be your business growth tasks, maybe not your client servicing, maybe that's where the team comes in. I think that there are those two hats. Again, lot of potential in this industry, but you do get out what you put in.

Erin: What keeps you motivated as you move into your second decades, both of you in the phase of say, a setback or challenge, and how do you make sure that you'll learn from it and set intentions to apply what you'll learn in the future? We'll start with you. Well, let's start with Dusko.

Dusko: Looking forward, the next, let's say, even five years, the way that we lay things out is financial growth of the business. We have a fiduciary duty to our clients, but we also have a duty to our agents and our staff and employees. If you include the backend staff, the admins, and our partners, we're really responsible for 50-plus people because there's other sub-industries that rely on our business as well and we take that very serious. When we're looking at growth and investing, we're at a point in our business where now we're starting to diversify into other asset classes as well because we don't want to have all of our eggs in one basket.

Erin: Okay, and Anu.

Anu: In terms of setbacks, I think as time goes on, I think we become more resilient. we're more knowledgeable, we know how to bounce back from something better. I think things do get easier. More so, we get more capable of processing them and coming back from them.

The other thing also, is your purpose for why you're in this business has to be abundantly clear, both to yourself and to all the partners that you're actually working with. There has to be this vision for what you see for your future. It may not be just a monetary goal. I actually think that money is the least motivating factor. For a lot of people, I know it's a push. When we get into really thinking about how we want to show up in our business, that purpose actually stems from something deeper inside of us, who I am, what I want the contribution to the world to be. I think asking those kind of questions.

Some criticism is, "You're just a REALTOR®. What's the big thing?" No, I'm actually interacting with people's families, with people's biggest financial decisions. Advice that I give could set them on a completely different wealth trajectory for generations to come. We do hold a lot of that responsibility, and showing up with that sort of purpose in mind, whatever it may be, and it varies from person to person, but having a purpose, I think, fuels your movement forward and it makes it easier to get past the little bumps.

For example, in my first couple of years, probably my three or four first years, I actually wanted to quit real estate. Over and over, I just wanted to quit. Every deal was too hard. Every client objection was too difficult to deal with. I couldn't do it, and I hated it, and I wanted to quit. Eventually, we got through that, I got through that, and a lot of that came from reflecting. "What kind of business do I want to build? What kind of person do I want to be?"

A lot of that has helped how I approach clients, how I approach problems because the problems keep coming. More money, more problems. As you grow, you will get to encounter different types of problems. You'll have different types of responsibilities. All that comes with growth. Having that clear purpose moving you forward I think makes it easier to deal with these setbacks.

Dusko: Just to add to that too, I mean how many agents do we know or do you encounter day-to-day that say that they're burnt out?

Anu: Oh, yes. For sure.

Dusko: I feel like a lot of that burnout comes over time. I remember my first few years, I'd lose sleep over the tiniest little thing. Over time, you get a bigger gas tank, and you learn how to manage that stress and responsibility a lot better. You're right, 100%, the money is not a factor after you become consistent. You start saving money and you're covering costs. That's not going to keep your business going. You're going to get burnt out. You need to have a greater purpose and good to keep that going. Can I just say? I very much appreciate that you snuck in "More money, more problems," into that response too. Very much. That has to get clipped.

Erin: That will be in our Best Of if not on our social media. For sure. There was something that I've heard you ask in interviews, Dusko, too, which really just underlines what Anu said there. You ask a question about money when you're interviewing somebody,

Dusko: Real estate attracts people from all different industries and walks of life and levels of experience. One of the first questions I ask is, what prompted you to interview us? Why do you want to get into this industry? What's the big factor? I would say 99% of them, if they're not willing to say it, I'll say it for them and I'll say, it's the money. It's the promise of potential income and quick income. It's good and bad because a lot of people come into this industry. Ideally, you want to have 6 to 12 months of savings saved up. Very few are going to have that.

We call it commission breath. It happens in every commission-based industry where people, maybe they start making decisions or maybe they start getting extra stressed and not making the best decisions themselves because they need a paycheck. Unfortunately, that's going to happen in every industry that's commission-based.

Erin: What is the best advice? You're giving such great advice in this episode and we can't thank you enough. The best advice that you ever got and that you actually took to heart? I'm going to start with you, Dusko.

Dusko: The best advice that I got was to partner with someone. I was fortunate enough to find a business partner that had a different level of skill sets than I did. At the time, he was not a registered REALTOR®, he just got licensed recently. His strengths are tech. SEO, PPC, or marketing, and mine were sales. That has helped us greatly. I love having now partners that I can bounce ideas off of because sometimes I come up with terrible ideas.

I feel like the reason we're able to scale and build a very strong business is because we have a very open and honest relationship with one another in our inner circle. We can bounce terrible ideas off of each other and we can call each other out because that's a relationship that we have. I feel like when you're a solo agent, or maybe when you're a solo team lead, there's nobody there at that same level to say, "Hey, you need to stop because this is a terrible idea."

Erin: Okay. Anu?

Anu: Fair enough, Dusko.

Erin: Best advice.

Anu: I do have mentors that call me out all the time. You know what? I definitely see the value of having a strong partner that's in there with you. That's definitely important. Honesty between partners is important, but also honesty with yourself; who you are, how you want to show up. We've talked about that theme a lot. One of the best pieces of advice that I have received as a REALTOR® is if you have a choice that you can make in one of those situations, you're going to lose the transaction, and the other one, you're going to lose the client, lose the transaction every single time.

To this day, it has informed the way that I deal with my clients, the way that I service them, the way that I make decisions in my business. They're always, always client-oriented, never transaction-oriented. I found myself saying this to my clients, "If you don't close on this house at this price today, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that you're happy, your family is secure in this decision because there's a lot more there that's at stake than this particular deal or this particular transaction."

That consultative approach of always, no matter what, keeping clients in front of me and just that is who I'm servicing, right? If you have a choice between losing the transaction, losing the client, give up the transaction every single time.

Dusko: To put a dollar figure there and put things into perspective as well, each deal should be actually good for eight other transactions. That includes future deals plus referrals. A lot of the agents that are like, "I just need to get this deal done," I'm 100% with you, Anu," I'd rather burn 30 deals a year than burn one client a year because the ROI in the future of having that strong relationship, rapport, and referrals is priceless.

Anu: I agree.

Erin: That was that advice. All right. You got one thing you want people to take away from this podcast and what would it be today? All right, Anu, to you.

Anu: Yes. For any new REALTORS® or anyone that's in the industry, thinking about maybe scaling up wherever you are in your business, just make sure that you're being honest with yourself, why you're in this, what your greater purpose is, and allow that to help you build a business that works for you and for whatever it is that your priorities are. It may be your family, it may be your other goals and ambitions in life.

Be all in and allow yourself to be purpose-driven because that is important and that's what's going to keep you from burnout. That's what's going to keep you from fizzling out like many agents do. It's not an easy industry, but it is an extremely rewarding one.

Erin: Dusko.

Dusko: Anu keeps looking at my notes, and I just have to call her out. Mine would probably be whether you're licensed for one month, one year, or 10 years, if you're lacking consistency in your business, it's lacking the consistency of you putting in that work. What I mean by that is even after being licensed for almost seven years, getting a lot of referrals, I still every single day am very consistent in reaching out to past clients, future clients, and trying to build my name and better rapport with people.

It's not easy, but I can promise you it does not matter how long you've been in this business. If you're lacking consistency in the amount of deals you're doing, it's just a lack of consistency of you working on your business.

Erin: Excellent. Thank you both so much for everything that you've brought to the table and the conversation today. We wish you both just great success from Caledon to Calgary and into your second decades. Best of luck to you both. Thank you so much.

Anu: Thank you so much, Erin, for having us.

Dusko: Thank you, Erin.

Erin: I just love how those two lanes are pointed in the same direction, fulfillment, balance, and a sense of purpose as REALTORS® in Canada. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, production from Alphabet® Creative, and technical support from Rob Whitehead. If you want more real estate resources, tools, and insights, you can visit us anytime at CREA.ca.

If you liked this episode, please do explore our other episodes, including more from our Working REALTOR® series. Whether it is growing your business or balancing work and life, you'll find thoughtful advice from REALTORS® across the country. Oh, and don't forget to rate or review the show because we always appreciate it. All right. I'm your host, Erin Davis. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk again soon on REAL TIME. Bye for now.

A survivor of two civil wars, Zahra Al-Harazi immigrated to Canada in 1996 with her three children and no higher education. Today, she’s one of Canada’s most successful entrepreneurs.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Zahra unpacks the turning point in her story, when she defined her sense of purpose, and how it continues to guide her and her businesses. She also shares strategies for defining your own purpose, and how to harmonize your personal and professional values, so you can stay focused, motivated, and fulfilled.

Discover Ikigai, the Japanese concept Zahra swears by for inspiring your sense of purpose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikigai

Learn more about the Enneagram personality types: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality

Transcript

Erin Davis: What stories do you owe your 80-year-old self, and how can you start writing them today? One word, purpose. That's our topic today on REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm your host, Erin Davis, and our guest is Zahra Al-Harazi, one of Canada's most successful businesswomen, a woman whose life defies expectations, consultant, author, and community builder. Zahra joins REAL TIME to talk about the power of purpose and its business potential for REALTORS®. Let's get started.

Erin: Zahra, people have different definitions of purpose. How do you define it, and why is it important for businesses to have a purpose beyond profit?

Zahra Al-Harazi: Thank you for that question. A purpose is the explanation of the company's motivations and their reason for being. It's a way to set boundaries for what an organization will and will not do as part of its growth strategy. It is really important to have purpose as an organization because it defines the reason that you are there. Especially in today's world, between the millennials and Gen Z, there is a massive trust deficit, desire for sustainability, desire to fix social inequality.

Brand control isn't as much as it used to be because there's this rise of social media and people trust more in what other people tell them about a product than the product itself. There's all these reasons why you should have a strong purpose statement. Really, the purpose statement is your reason for being.

Erin: You have said that there are two types or two ways in which your values have to align with the corporation. Can you explain that?

Zahra: Rather than two ways, I think there is a personal purpose and then there is an organizational purpose. Really, those things should align. Organizations should really understand what their target audience, meaning their stakeholders, meaning their employees, their customers, what they want, what they desire, what is important to them, and then aligning that purpose to both those things. If I, as an employee, don't feel the same sense of values and purpose with my organization, I'm going to be less interested in what that organization has to stand for.

I will go looking for somewhere else that does align with my values, my sense of purpose, the things that I want to do, what my legacy is meant to be. I think those are the two things that are really important. A lot of people write these nice things like mission statement and values and purpose and whatever, and put them up on a wall. If you ask the employees without looking at the wall what those are, most of the time they won't be able to tell you.

They're also very similar to what every other organization is doing. You can change the logo in the name and put in another name and you've got pretty much the same sense of purpose. Truly understanding your audience, what they want, your employees, what they are passionate about, what motivates them, what gets them going, what drives them, is then going to make a really powerful purpose statement. Every stakeholder should remember what your purpose is without you having to articulate it over and over again.

Erin: Zahra, I find your own story of realizing that you had a purpose, of course, but it wasn't really in line with who you are or what you really wanted. Can you tell us that story? Because it's really enlightening.

Zahra: Yes. I don't know that I had a purpose before I actually sat down and I worked on articulating it. I think for a big chunk of my life, I was pretty lost. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do and what other people told me. I never really got to true success until I defined what that purpose is. I'm both a refugee and an immigrant. I was a refugee when we left the war in Uganda and went to Yemen. I was an immigrant when I left the war in Yemen and came to Canada.

In that time, I just wasn't sure what I was meant to do, what I was supposed to do, how to go about life, and my sense of purpose. I didn't even know what having a sense of purpose honestly quite meant. Then I took the tools that we use at a really low time in my life when I was going through a lot of bad things. If you're from Calgary, you'll know that when the recession happens and it's this very cyclical sort of environment, it affects you. Between that, getting a divorce, a whole bunch of different things, I was just not at a good place. I took the tools that we use to build a brand.

For my first company, it was an ad agency. When we're helping a company design their purpose and their values and their brand and how they operate, we usually start with a creative brief. That creative brief can be pretty powerful because it fully understands what this brand is supposed to be, what it does, what are its drawbacks, who's its competition, what's its purpose, how does it work, what does it look like on a shelf, and all of that. Once we understand this brand is then when we are able to move forward and design it. I took that tool, and I built a purpose for myself.

Honestly, in the last 15 years, that purpose hasn't changed much, but it also helped propel me to what I am doing today.

Erin: You have said that the things that you adhere to in terms of your purpose, like integrity, honesty, experience, and expertise, those are non-negotiables. They're totally who you are and what you wanted yourself to present, what you wanted you to present to the world. How do you translate that into what a company should also have for brands? How does that translate? Your own, because you're a company, so how do you translate that into what others can also see and believe and be?

Zahra: Yes. Actually, those were for my company when I was building purpose for my company and we were trying-- because clients would ask us what ours was as we were building theirs. We grew by flying by the seat of our pants. We didn't actually have time to stop and do that. We realized that we had to do that as a company. As we were looking at that and trying to figure it out and we had these big post-it notes on the wall and we were writing things down like integrity and honesty and excellence and all of that and nothing, it didn't feel right. It was weird because we kept crossing it off and it was like, why does that-- That sounds like a good purpose to have.

We realized that those things are set in stone. If you don't have integrity, then get out of business. If you don't value excellence, then it's not going to work. That was the big driver is understanding like, "Okay, so those things are table stakes. They're set in stone. They're non-negotiables. If we don't have these things, we shouldn't be in business because those are the cornerstones of doing things the right way." When we started looking at our purpose and our values as an organization, we started looking at how we wanted to live our lives, what we wanted to leave behind, what we wanted to touch, how we wanted to operate, how we wanted to act, how we wanted people to view us.

That's how we ended up with the set of values that we wrote down. Interestingly enough, those values have followed me now into my third startup, and they're the same things that I wanted then I want now. I realized that your personal values, your personal purpose has to align, especially as an entrepreneur, has to align like this, completely and totally with your company and your corporate values. Otherwise, you won't be true to them.

Erin: Right. Not just a slogan or something on a coffee mug, but something that becomes part of your DNA. Obviously, if you're in your third incarnation, then it certainly is. Now, question for you here, Zahra, is should a purpose differ from a mission or a vision and how do they work together if they do differ?

Zahra: Yes, so like I said, a purpose is the explanation of your motivation. Your reason for being. A mission statement is a definition of your business. What are you in business? What do you do? Who do you serve? What are your objectives? What is your approach to achieving those objectives? Purpose is different. With a lot of companies, you find that whether it's your values, your mission, your purpose, they sort of belong in the HR department, and again, become words on a wall. They don't live and breathe throughout every silo that-- and we all know that every organization is quite siloed.

Your purpose should live and breathe through your entire organization. How you do billing, how you do legal, what you volunteer for, what organizations you give for, what you attend, what you do, and especially as an entrepreneur. You have to live and breathe it at every touch point. If this part of your company does not align, it breaks that chain.

Erin: Okay, you came up with this list of words, a long list of words. I love your circle the 20 thing. Could you explain that exercise to us? Because I get a feeling we're going to be doing this when we're done, those of us watching and listening today, Zahra. You're really putting yourself on the line with this one and that's brave and it makes you vulnerable. I think that's why it works. Go ahead and explain that for us, will you?

Zahra: Happily, however, I didn't totally put myself on the line because I made it anonymous, because I didn't really want to know what people thought of me. What I did when I was working on my creative brief and my personal values and purpose is I put together 200 words on a piece of paper, and I just circled just instinctively and they were good and bad words. things that maybe were flattering, some things that weren't as flattering.

I just circled the 20 words that I thought that applied to me. Then I gave that piece of paper to a lot of people in my world, everybody from clients to staff to friends and asked them what they thought. I made it anonymous because I wanted them to be comfortable telling me what they thought. Then I also wanted to not really know what people thought.

Erin: It's like a focus group. Nobody likes those.

Zahra: For sure. I compared everything, and it was really interesting to see how I viewed myself versus how other people viewed me. There was a lot of similarities but there were a few differences. Where I thought I was assertive, a lot of people thought I was stubborn and bossy, That's interesting. Because maybe I'm not projecting myself the right way. I had to really think about that. It's like, this is what they're seeing. Why are they seeing that? How can I change that to them seeing me as being assertive?

It was a very helpful and difficult exercise in understanding yourself and what you put out there. Because that's a huge part of, for all of us, especially entrepreneurs, again, your brand is you. What you put out there in the world for people to see how they interact with you, who they believe you are, is such a huge part of whether they believe in your work and your product or not.

That was a really big-- Before I did this exercise, before I started exploring this creative brief and this brand, that self-help, self-motivation stuff belonged in this kumbaya world that didn't really apply to me. Because as soon as I thought something was wrong with me, that meant something was wrong with me. I just wasn't going to think that anything was wrong with me.

Erin: That perception is their reality, as much as you go, no, that's not me at all. Okay, where did you get the 200 words from?

Zahra: I Googled. I sat down. I wrote descriptive words. I just tried to put together words that I knew. Good words, bad words, like it's just very easy to do that part. Maybe there was some bias too in that exercise for myself because I know what words I wanted to see on there and stuff like that. That's why I made it such a big list of words so that I covered so many different things.

Erin: Yes, well, you said anonymous, but still, I do think it was vulnerable of you to open the doors to what people thought of you because most of us, a lot of us don't want to know. It worked for you. It was an eye-opener. You have a few other tests that you really like. There's, for example, the Enneagram.

Zahra: Yes, I love the Enneagram personality test. Again, it was a moment of conflict with a business partner. We decided to do the Enneagram personality test because we did not see eye to eye, and we did not understand how the other person works. We were so polar opposites in personality. We did this Enneagram personality test as part of our, just, trying to fix the relationship. We brought in a coach, and they did the Enneagram personality test. It was fascinating because not only do we all have certain personality definitions and traits.

For me, my personality is I want to try everything and see what sticks to the wall. On the bad side, yes, I'm the one with all the big ideas, but then I'm never around to pick up the pieces because I'm not the detail-oriented person. Whereas my partner was down in the weeds in this detail stuff. She would never do anything unless it was tried, tested, true. She knew exactly how it would work. We frustrated each other to a enormous degree. It was really powerful to understand. The Enneagram not only tells you how you work with people, how people should work with you, personality things, it tells you what your wings are.

If you're in a bad place, you might lean more into this direction of being an overprotective bully, for example, or in this direction of being too accommodating because you really wanted to work. You really just understand. It's all part of this growth journey that I think a lot of us just don't take on because like you said, it's difficult. It's scary. A lot of times you don't know what you're going to find on the other side of that research. It really helps. It helps understand what you want, how you're going to do it.

It helped me understand what I wanted to do with my life. I'll tell you what my purpose statement was that I wrote 15 years ago. This just rang true to me at the time. It wasn't a goal that was money-oriented or career-oriented, but what I wrote down is I will spend the rest of my life living stories and experiences that will change perspectives, outcomes, and hearts. That was really important to me because then I was a marketer. That was my first company phase. I was a marketer. What we did was we sold things to people.

We convinced them to buy what we wanted them to buy, to go where we wanted them to go. That was part of my DNA. I wanted to have experiences. I had come off a part of my life where I didn't have the freedom to do what I wanted to do. Now all of a sudden, I did, and I wanted to do everything. I wanted to change hearts because giving back is such a huge part of who I am. I wanted people to care more.

I wanted them to see other people and take in how they can change their lives. I wanted to change people's outcomes. I wanted to help people in poverty and get them out of that situation into a different place. These were all things that were important to me that meant a lot to me. I started working on that and I started speaking, for example, I've spoken to audiences around the world, two to 5,000 people at a time. I've spoken at the UN, at Canada's Most Powerful Women Conference, at a conference in Istanbul, for example, that had 2,500 entrepreneurs from around the world.

That became a big part of what I did. I set myself up to a place where I became an influencer, and I got to sit at tables where big decisions were made. I was the Canadian ambassador for UNICEF for four years. I was on the National Canadian Board of Directors for Make-A-Wish Foundation. Those were all things that I cared about. The first trip I took with my kids after my divorce was, we went with Homes of Hope and we build homes in Tijuana for families.

All of that led into this purpose statement that I had put out. It all continues to fit because everything I do, I measure it against that. Does this feel right to me? Which has led to my third company. I started doing stuff because I wanted to have experiences. I did everything from learning how to ride a motorcycle to jumping out of a plane, I am terrified of heights, to doing big and small things that were new.

Erin: Just incredible. That clarity really did just open up everything for you. You talk about being at the table where big decisions are made, but these are things, too, that can translate so beautifully to the kitchen table, too, because you have imbued your children, not only with your brilliance and everything that you are and have proven, not only in business, but in life and the obstacles that you have surmounted. The fact that you are giving examples of giving back and charity and living that.

I think this is a message, your message, your story is one that applies not only in business, but around the kitchen table. I think you're just resonating so much with so many people today as well. Thanks for this, but we're not done. Because, Zahra, I want to ask you, how could a well-executed sense of purpose help boost your reputation or maybe even shift misconceptions about you or your business? It's fine to have these ideas of what your purpose, what your mission, what they are going to be, but you got to go get it out there, right?

Zahra: Yes, absolutely. Before you get it out there though, it has to be true. It has to be true to who you are. It has to be true to what you do. For example, if we are talking real estate, and everybody wants to sell houses to people and a lot of those mission, purpose, value statements are going to be the same, but what is your niche? What sets you apart from other people? What is it that you truly believe in and you want to do?

An example could be somebody who wants to help seniors transition into smaller homes, which is exactly where I am right now. I want a one-story forever home that I never have to move out of, hopefully. I don't want to be moving when I'm in my 70s, and trying to figure it out. If there is somebody that has decided that's going to be where they want to live, and that's the client that they want, so now they've found a niche market.

If you do a good job, if you live by your sense of purpose, if you actually do that properly, every person that you work with is going to recommend you to other people. That means what organizations do you volunteer for, like I said earlier, what organizations do you give to? What events do you go to? Who do you socialize with? All of that needs to fit, and it needs to be real, because if it's not real, if you are acting and if you've decided that this is going to be what you want to do, but it's not a part of you, then it's not going to be believable.

I really think that understanding yourself and what you want to do in life is a huge part of your success story. It really is because if you are truly hungry for that thing, if you are truly inspired by that thing, if you are truly motivated to do that thing, then it all becomes real. You work harder. You work faster. You innovate better, and it all fits.

Erin: Yes, and you stop being a boat against the current. It just flows. That authenticity allows you to flow. What do businesses or entrepreneurs need to consider when they're defining and articulating a purpose?

Zahra: There's this really, really interesting Japanese concept that I really do love. It's called ikigai. It means your reason for being, and your ikigai is at the center of what you love, what the world needs from you, what you can be paid for, and what you are good at. Meaning your passion, your mission, your vocation, and your profession. Right at the center of those four things is your ikigai. I absolutely love that. I discovered that when I was working on my own purpose because it's easy to say, "Well, I'm really passionate about this thing. I love it, but it's not what I'm good at. It's not my actual vocation." I'm really passionate about saving lives, but I'm not a doctor. How am I going to do that?

What you're passionate about is only one piece of the puzzle. What your mission is in life, is the other piece of the puzzle. What the world needs. Your vocation is what you can be paid for. Your profession is what you are good at, and you take all of those and you put them together, and at the center of that is your purpose, and so great-- Look it up. It's ikigai. It's a great way to look at yourself and your life, and what you want, and how all of those pieces fit.

Because like I said, if it's not real, if it's not believable, if you're not actually good at that thing, you're not going-- Maybe you can get better at that thing. Maybe you can educate yourself and do that, but maybe you can't because your circumstances in life are not going to allow you to go deep enough into understanding how to get good at that thing in order to do it well. At the center of all of that, I think is your sense of purpose. Not just me, ikigai is the one that coined that.

Erin: I love that. I just love it. It just sums it up so perfectly. I know you've said you don't like to give advice, but I'm going to go ahead and ask you anyway and see if we can get something out of you here. What are some authentic tactical ways to weave a sense of purpose through every facet of your business? Do you have any that you can share or some feedback, or how do you operate there?

Zahra: I'm a member of Entrepreneurs' Organization. One of the things we are told is not to give advice to our foreign members. You can share an experience or a story as opposed to giving advice. If I were to say three things that really make a difference is clarity. What I've talked about is just understanding yourself, understanding what you do, why you do it, who you are, how you operate, and all of those things. That's one.

Pride is another one. Having pride in yourself, having that confidence and that courage and that understanding and that resilience and resilience doesn't come from nothing. We are not born with or without resilience. We earn it. We gain it, and we gain it by doing difficult things, by stepping out of our comfort zone. The more we do that, the more we step out of our comfort zone, the more we do difficult things like me jumping out of a plane is the things that help you build that resilience, and that resilience is so closely tied with courage and belief in yourself and ability.

Having that sense of pride in yourself and finding that is really important, I think. As women, we are taught not-- It seems boastful to talk about yourself in a certain way or to take ownership of say, "Yes, I did that." As opposed to, "It was a team effort." Be proud of who you are, what you've done, how you've got here, and then be motivated. Motivation is not easy to come by. Find that thing that you are really passionate about and you really want is really important because if you find that, then you're more motivated to do it. Motivation only works if your environment works, like if your psychological state, the environment, the people around you, the support system that you have, and your past experiences.

Those things come together in a perfect place, and you can tap into that motivation. Find that, find that motivation, find that thing that makes you want to do something.

Erin: The challenges that you faced, Zahra, when you came to Canada were far from a perfect place from which to start. Yes, confidence and perseverance had to be in your tool belt, but how did they lead you to such a successful career in business when you were first starting out and having to navigate life in a new country?

Zahra: Great question. I'm not entirely sure I know how to answer that. Only because a lot of it happened. A lot of it happened. I knocked on a million doors, and I was a nobody immigrant from nowhere. I was knocking on doors, because like when I came, I had three children. I had a high school degree. I didn't even know what the word entrepreneur meant at the time. I was so far behind everybody else. I was 26 years old, like I said, three kids, and didn't know anything about anything.

Just growing up where I am because of poverty of the country and the war and everything else. There's these big gaps in my knowledge of even popular culture and things like that. I knocked on doors. I asked people out for coffee. I asked them to teach me things that I didn't know and nobody ever said no. People are kind. People are helpful. That is, I think, our first approach for the majority of people. The doors that I knocked on, the people that taught me things ended up becoming my friends, my clients, my motivators, my fan club, and they helped cheer me on and take me to places that I might not have got to on my own.

I know that I put myself in places where I was lucky enough to have those resources. A lot of it, I think, happens with life. You have to capitalize on it. You have to move forward. My very first award was Top 40 Under 40. A client of mine, who was also a friend, Andrea, put my name in the hat. I didn't even know about the Top 40 Under 40 award. I was busy trying to build a company. I wasn't even thinking about it. I was early, first year in business sort of thing.

I won that, and with that came a lot of accolades and a lot of new clients and it grew from there. Again, this is advice that I don't like to give, but put yourself in rooms where things are happening. Volunteer, get involved in community, join a sports team. One of my very first things that I did when I came to Calgary because girls where I come from are not allowed gym class, and I don't think I even ran as a kid. Jim Button in Calgary started this thing where you just went and played a sport every week and it was 40 girls, 40 guys and then everybody got together at the end of the night for a drink.

The first time I went every game, like every weekend, every week we would do basketball or hockey or floor hockey, portaging and every week I'd be the one who put my hand up and said, "I've never done that before." I met the best people and some of them are still-- they play such a huge part in my life, especially Jim Button. A lot of that is the things that have made a difference. I can pinpoint decisions that I made to do things that weren't success-related that led to my biggest successes.

Erin: Talking about the purpose, does that change? Our perspective at 20 is so different from our perspective at 40 and at 60 and on and on, just who we think is old for one thing. Does your perspective need to be recalibrated as you go along or what is your opinion on that?

Zahra: 1,000%, 1,000%. What I wanted 10 years ago is not what I wanted 20 years ago is not what I wanted when I was a kid is in some cases not what I want today. We change, our circumstances change. There was a point where I just really wanted to go to Hong Kong. I don't know why I was fascinated by my visit there and the culture there and the people that I met there and the best of the best of the expat community. I just wanted to live in Hong Kong, but I'm an only child. My father was not well. It didn't make sense for me to do that. That dream had to be put aside, thankfully, because what ended up happening was much better.

Things change. Like I said, your environment, things that happened to you, your circumstances, guide different things, different moments in your life. You might go down a path that you never expected and find a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. Yes, I revisit my purpose, my creative brief every year. Some things have not changed. I really haven't changed my purpose statement because I like it. It fits me, but other things have changed. Yes, absolutely. You have to revisit.

Erin: Like a tune-up every year. That's fascinating. Okay. What is or what are some stories you want to tell as an 80-year-old?

Zahra: At the risk of sounding very corny, what's important to me is doing good in this world, people who do good in this world. I'm very choosy about what I let into my life at this stage, about who I let into my life at this stage. I have kids that live all over the world, and I spend a lot of time going to see them. I have a limited amount of time outside of my business and volunteering for things that are important to me, of who I want to hang out with, what I want to do. I'm very choosy. I'm choosy about what influence I want to have, who I want to let into my life, what boards and charities I want to be involved in, what I want my business life to look like.

My new company is called Skillit, and it's an experiential company. It's where we take a family on an experience, but they learn something every single time. It's very experiential, but there are soft and hard skills that you come away with at every interaction. For example, we'll take a family out into the desert with no food, and they have to dig for water, forage for food, learn about medicinal herbs with a guide, of course, learn about medicinal herbs and how to build a lean-to.

Erin: Is there room service? No, I'm kidding. You almost had me there, Zahra.

Zahra: They're going to build a solar oven and cook their own food. Can you see how that brings together everything in my world? Because number one, it's experience-based. Number two, it's very associated with people and changing lives and influencing, making their lives better by teaching them things. For every skill we sell, we donate one to a young person in need. That's my give back, and so it just, all the pieces fit, and that's what I want to give my time to. That's the story I want to tell.

Erin: Beautiful. Thank you so, so much for sharing some of your story here today. We will definitely tell people more about that as we say goodbye to you. Zahra, we are just so grateful. As we wrap up today, are there any like three things you want people to take away from our discussion today? You've given us so much.

Zahra: I think I'm going to go back to the three things I said earlier, pride in yourself, clarity in what you have to do, and motivation to do it.

Erin: Wow. We've got all of that, especially the motivation after talking with you today, Zahra, thank you so much. We cannot wait to find out what's next for you, including Skillit. No more jumping out of perfectly operating planes, okay? Thank you.

Zahra: No, that was a one-and-done.

Erin: One-and-done. Good for you. Thank you so much.

Zahra: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.

Erin: Wasn't she amazing? You know what? We only began to skim the surface of her own personal story. If you want more inspiration from Zahra, her book is called What It Takes to Live and Lead with Purpose, Laughter, and Strength. It details her journey and how it all began. You can find details on that in our show notes. We will also link you to Ikigai so you know what it is and where to find it, and also the enneagramtest.com. It's all fascinating. If you liked this episode of REAL TIME, we invite you to explore our other episodes. Don't forget to rate or review the show. We always, always appreciate it. I'm your host Erin Davis. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA.

Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with technical support from Rob Whitehead. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll see you again next time on REAL TIME.