Season 5 of the Respecting Religion podcast launches in October 2023! Tune in as BJC's Amanda Tyler and Holly Hollman discuss the Supreme Court, the continued rise of Christian nationalism, and a multitude of current issues impacting faith freedom for all.

Here's a look at a few of the topics covered in season 4, including the ReAwaken America tour, federal regulations about religious expression in school, the National Prayer Breakfast, and various ways the two religion clauses of the First Amendment impact our life and protect the institutional separation of church and state. You can watch this trailer on YouTube at this link: https://youtu.be/MwnSSS6rGfs?feature=shared

You can find all episodes of Respecting Religion -- including transcripts -- at RespectingReligion.org or BJConline.org/respectingreligion.

The Supreme Court waited until the last two days of its term to release two decisions with religious liberty implications. On this season 4 finale of the Respecting Religion podcast, Amanda and Holly look at the unanimous clarifying decision in Groff v. DeJoy and the deeply regressive decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis. They discuss the implications of both of these decisions, noting the conspicuous lack of snark in Justice Samuel Alito’s Groff decision and Justice Neil Gorsuch’s defensive attempt to make his big decision seem not all that remarkable.

SHOW NOTES:

Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): The clarifying decision in Groff v. DeJoy

This season, Amanda and Holly previewed the Groff v. DeJoy case in episode 17 and reviewed the oral arguments in episode 19. 

Holly released this statement after the decision on June 29, which was mentioned in this article from SCOTUSblog: Justices rule in favor of evangelical postal worker.

Read the decision by Justice Samuel Alito and concurrence by Justice Sonia Sotomayor at this link.

For more resources, visit BJC’s page on the case: BJConline.org/Groff.

Segment 2 (starting at 13:08): The problems with the 303 Creative v. Elenis decision

Amanda and Holly discussed the oral arguments for 303 Creative v. Elenis in episode 8 – an episode we titled “hypotheticals, reeducation, and a preemptive claim.”

Read the opinion by Justice Neil Gorsuch and the dissent by Justice Sonia Sotomayor at this link.

Segment 3 (starting at 38:55): Saying farewell to season four

Thank you to our listeners and to everyone who contributes to this program. Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

Visit our website for transcripts of episodes throughout season four: https://bjconline.org/respectingreligion/

It happens in pretty much every administration, but what do you know about federal guidelines on religion in public schools? Holly and Amanda discuss the new release from the Biden administration outlining the different rights of students and teachers, and they share how some are misinterpreting the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision to open the door to more government-sponsored religious exercises. They also look at what we saw happen at the end of the Texas Legislature’s session in relation to bills that would impact religious freedom, and they review this week’s alarming news that an Oklahoma board voted to fund a religious public charter school. 

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:47): What should we pay attention to in the new guidance on religion in public schools?

Amanda and Holly discussed the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision in our season finale last year (season 3, ep. 21). You can read BJC’s brief and see additional resources at BJConline.org/Bremerton.

You can read Holly’s column on the new federal guidelines in our summer magazine: Good news on the religious freedom frontlines

Read the new guidelines on prayer and religious expression in public schools on the Department of Education’s website. You can watch remarks from Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona on YouTube.

Amanda and Holly discussed this piece by Linda Wertheimer published by The New Republic: Inside the Christian legal campaign to return prayer to public schools. You can also read it online via The Hechinger Report.

Segment 2 (starting at 20:43): Texas update

Amanda and Holly discussed the proposed Ten Commandments legislation in Texas on episode 20 and episode 21 of this season.

Holly and Amanda mentioned this piece by Robert Downen for TheTexas Tribune: Unlicensed religious chaplains may counsel students in Texas’ public schools after lawmakers OK proposal

They also mentioned this piece by Jack Jenkins for Religion News Service: Meet the activists who spearheaded the Texas chaplains bill

Segment 3 (starting at 26:53): New news out of Oklahoma

Amanda Tweeted her response – and the response of Oklahoma’s attorney general – after the approval of the first-ever religious charter school.

Holly mentioned this piece by Sarah Mervosh for The New York Times: Oklahoma Approves First Religious Charter School in the U.S.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

What does the myth of American “chosenness” mean for different communities and the rise of Christian nationalism? Episcopal Bishop and Cherokee nation member Carol Gallagher, Baptist minister Rev. Darrell Hamilton, and Dr. Michael Hober­man, a scholar of early American Jewish literature and culture, engage in a conversation moderated by the Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley, a minister and professor of gender studies and ethnic studies. Dr. Catherine Brekus of Harvard Divinity School joins them, too, as they react to her lecture about how the myth of “chosenness” leads to much of the religious nationalism in our country today, including how scriptures were used to justify colonialism.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:40): Context for this panel

Hear Dr. Catherine Brekus’ presentation in episode 23, or watch it online.

Meet our panelists:

The Rt. Rev. Carol Gallagher, Ph.D. serves as the assistant bishop in the Episcopal Church’s Diocese of Massachusetts. An enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation, Bishop Gallagher previously served the diocese as a regional canon. Before that, starting in 2014, she served as assistant bishop in the Diocese of Montana, developing relationships with Native leaders and congregations there; educating and training clergy and lay leaders on issues of race, gender and inclusion; and leading the Task Force on Native Issues.

Dr. Michael Hober­man teach­es Amer­i­can lit­er­a­ture at Fitch­burg State Uni­ver­si­ty. He is a grad­u­ate of Reed Col­lege and earned his Ph.D. from the Uni­ver­si­ty of Mass­a­chu­setts Amherst. His pre­vi­ous books include A Hundred Acres of America: The Geography of Jewish American Literary History and New Israel/New England: Jews and Puritans in Early America.

The Rev. Darrell Hamilton is an ordained Baptist minister and graduate from Wake Forest School of Divinity, where he earned his Master of Divinity in 2017. He earned his degree in Political Science from the University of Central Oklahoma in 2012. Currently, the Rev. Hamilton serves at the First Baptist Church in Jamaica Plain as Administrative Pastor and as Protestant Chaplain at Babson College. The Rev. Hamilton was a BJC intern in spring 2016.

The Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley (moderator) is an Assistant Professor of Gender Studies and Ethnic Studies at the University of Utah. During the 2022-2023 academic year, she is the Research Fellow at Old North Illuminated in Boston. Old North Illuminated is the secular 501(c)(3) that preserves the Old North Church and interprets its history. Her research, teaching, and writing consider the themes of historical memory, race, religion, gender, and abolition. Jaimie is an ordained minister whose ordination is recognized by the American Baptist Churches USA. The Rev. Dr. Crumley is a member of the BJC Board of Directors and of the 2016 class of BJC Fellows.

This presentation was the 2023 Walter B. and Kay W. Shurden Lecture on Religious Liberty and Separation of Church and State, an annual lecture series sponsored by BJC. It took place at Old North Church in Boston. 

Segment 2 (starting at 1:39): The panel conversation

You can also watch the panel at this link.

During the conversation, Dr. Crumley mentioned this piece by Dr. Brekus on American “chosenness.”

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

How does the myth of America being a “chosen” nation lead to the religious nationalism we see today? Harvard Divinity School’s Dr. Catherine Brekus talks about how the myth is a complicated mixture of arrogance, exploitation, reform, racism and violence. She looks at the roots of this myth, how it has played out through our country’s history, and the ways that the recent surge of white Christian nationalism reflects a deep uneasiness about the loss of Christian privilege in this country.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:47): Meet Dr. Catherine Brekus

Dr. Catherine Brekus is Charles Warren Professor of the History of Religion in America at Harvard Divinity School, Chair of the Committee on the Study of Religion in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, and an associate member of the Program in American Studies and the Department of History. Her research focuses on the relationship between religion and American culture, with particular emphasis on the history of women, gender, Christianity, and the evangelical movement. Currently, she is writing a book about the relationship between American nationalism and Christianity and co-authoring a biography of Sarah Edwards (1710-1758) with Harry Stout and Ken Minkema.

Read more about her on Harvard Divinity School’s website. 

This presentation was the 2023 Walter B. and Kay W. Shurden Lecture on Religious Liberty and Separation of Church and State, an annual lecture series sponsored by BJC. Dr. Brekus gave this presentation at Old North Church in Boston. 

Segment 2 (starting at 2:30): The myth of American ‘chosenness’ 

You can watch the presentation online at this link.

Dr. Brekus’ presentation was followed by a panel discussion that included Dr. Brekus; The Rt. Rev. Carol Gallagher, PhD; the Rev. Darrell Hamilton; and Dr. Michael Hober­man. It was moderated by the Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley. Our next episode will bring you their conversation.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

Christian nationalism is on full display at stops of the ReAwaken America tour – conferences that fuse Christian language and symbols with conspiracy theories and election denials. Amanda went inside the most recent one at a Trump property in Miami, and she shares her experiences in this podcast – from assembly-line baptisms to the reaction of the crowd as speakers moved seamlessly from religious worship songs to calls for political violence. 

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:48): The Christian nationalism of the ReAwaken America tour

Amanda and Holly discussed the ReAwaken America tour in episode 5 of season 4: Christian nationalism and the midterm elections

Amanda and Holly mention this article about the ReAwaken Tour in The New York Times by Michelle Goldberg: Whose Version of Christian Nationalism Will Win in 2024?

Amanda wrote a response to Michael Flynn’s call for “one religion” in 2021, published by Baptist News Global: If you’re paying attention to Christian nationalism, you won’t be shocked by Michael Flynn’s call for ‘one religion under God’

Segment 2 (starting at 05:29): The Pastors for Trump event

Amanda and Holly mentioned this article on the Pastors for Trump group by Peter Stone for The Guardian: Pro-Trump pastors rebuked for ‘overt embrace of white Christian nationalism’

During this segment, we played a clip of Pastor John Bennett speaking during the Pastors for Trump event in Miami.

Segment 3 (starting at 15:34): ReAwaken America, baptisms, and our counter-witness

Amanda and Holly mentioned Brian Kaylor’s reporting on the ReAwaken America tour. You can see his twitter thread with clips from Miami and read his latest piece in the A Public Witness newsletter, which is part of the Word&Way network: Michael Flynn’s Soup for the Soulless

For more about Baptism and different ways Christian denominations approach it, check out this story from 2001 by the PBS program Religion and Ethics Newsweekly.

BJC and Faithful America created electronic billboards that were on trucks and a boat in Miami. See the video of the billboards in this post on the @EndChristianNationailsm Instagram account.

Visit ChristiansAgainstChristianNationalism.org to explore the resources provided by the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, including a statement anyone who identifies as a Christian can sign.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

The Texas legislature meets once every two years, and they are spending a great deal of this session on bills that would advance religion. We return to our conversation on the Ten Commandments bill in Texas, as we saw a groundswell of opposition to the bill when it headed to the state House. Amanda and Holly take a look at some viral moments, and we share an exclusive conversation with Texas state Rep. James Talarico, who spoke in opposition to this bill as a lawmaker, a former schoolteacher, and a Christian. 

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): Why are we still talking about this?

Last week’s program on the Ten Commandments bill in Texas (Senate Bill 1515) is episode 20 of season 4. You can listen to it on our website.

We played the viral video of state Rep. James Talarico questioning the author of the bill. You can watch it on Twitter.

An advocate in Waco put together this petition opposing SB 1515, available for Texans who oppose the bill as people of faith to sign.

Segment 2 (starting at 12:39): A conversation with Texas state Rep. James Talarico

You can see video clips of the interview with Amanda and Texas state Rep. James Talarico in a Twitter thread she posted. It is also available on YouTube and on a reel posted by the @endchristiannationalism Instagram account.

Segment 3 (starting at 27:32): Putting this discussion into focus

For additional resources on the various ways religions interpret and list the commandments, a chart from New World Encyclopedia shows how different traditions order them. You can see a list of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) here. Visit this website for a side-by-side comparison of the Ten Commandments as listed in Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20.

We played a clip of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg questioning Paul Clement in 2005 during oral arguments in the Van Orden v. Perry case. You can listen to the full argument here, and the clip we played is from 51:24 in the audio recording of the argument.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

Texas is taking matters into its own hands, going full-on cowboy as it leads the nation in abandoning long-held religious liberty protections. Amanda and Holly review a troubling bill in Texas that would mandate the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms, and they share how some are trying to use the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision – and removal of the Lemon test – to justify this effort. They also review some surprising moments during a Texas Senate hearing on the bill, including when Baptists discover they have different understandings of their own theology. In the final segment, Amanda and Holly review the religious freedom problem with legislation like this and share ideas for engaging in conversation that can help reframe the issue.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 00:41): Dueling over the Ten Commandments

Amanda and Holly discuss last year’s Supreme Court decision in Kennedy v. Bremerton on episode 21 of season 3. 

Amanda and Holly talk about the Lemon test, from the 1971 decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman. They also mention the 1980 Stone v. Graham decision.

The proposal in Texas is Senate Bill 1515, and the text is available online.

Amanda and Holly mentioned this piece by Britt Luby for Baptist News Global: ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife’ and other posters I do not want in a first grade classroom.

Read Amanda’s Tweet about this proposal in Texas.

Segment 2 (starting at 13:28): The Texas Senate hearing on this bill 

You can listen to the Texas state Senate hearing on Senate Bill 1515 at this link. We played a clip of Tara Beulah, which appears at 27:13 in that video. 

Former BJC Executive Director Brent Walker wrote this piece in 2005 debunking some of David Barton’s claims. 

You can find resources on Christian nationalism on the website of our Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign.

Segment 3 (starting at 30:01): Engaging in conversation about the Ten Commandments

In 2005, the two Supreme Court cases dealing with the posting of the Ten Commandments in government settings were McCreary County v. ACLU and Van Orden v. Perry.

Read Holly’s preview column, which included ways to engage in conversation about the issue, on page 6 of this magazine: Supreme Court’s review of Ten Commandments cases an opportunity for education on religious liberty

After the cases concluded in 2005, Holly wrote this column: Making sense of the Ten Commandments cases

For more resources from BJC on religious displays, visit BJConline.org/religious-displays.

The Respecting Religion podcast was honored with two DeRose-Hinkhouse Awards from the Religion Communicators Council: Best in category for an individual episode, recognizing our episode on the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision, and an award of merit for season 4 of the podcast.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

The Supreme Court seemed less divided by ideological lines during the Groff v. DeJoy oral arguments, as justices searched for common ground to clarify a standard from a 1977 decision that no advocate seems to be fully supporting. Amanda and Holly share their thoughts from the day, playing key moments from the courtroom in their breakdown of the legal issues and sticking points in the case. What, exactly, constitutes “undue hardship” when looking at the practical realities of the modern workplace and the strain that one worker’s need – religious or not – can cause on others? 

Segment 1: Statutory stare decisis (starting at 00:47)

Learn more about Groff v. DeJoy on our website: BJConline.org/Groff, which includes a link to the brief BJC joined and Holly’s preview column.

Listen to our preview of the case in episode 17: Is ‘de minimis’ enough?

Holly mentioned this story from Nina Totenberg on NPR: Who bears the burden, and how much, when religious employees refuse Sabbath work?

Visit the Supreme Court’s website to listen to oral arguments in Groff v. DeJoy and read a transcript. 

At the Supreme Court, Aaron Streett argued on behalf of the petitioner, Gerald Groff, and Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar argued on behalf of the United States Postal Service. 

We played one clip from the oral arguments during this segment:

• Justice Elena Kagan and Aaron Streett (this exchange takes place at 12:29 in the oral arguments)

Segment 2: A Court looking for common ground to clarify the law  (starting at 14:14)

We played five clips from the oral arguments in this segment:

• Justice Neil Gorsuch and Elizabeth Prelogar (this exchange takes place at 57:58 in the oral arguments)
• Justice Elena Kagan and Aaron Street (from 31:26 in the arguments)
• Justice Brett Kavanaugh and Aaron Street (from at 34:26 in the arguments)
• Aaron Street responding to Justice Amy Coney Barrett (from 40:29 in the arguments)
• Justice Brett Kavanaugh and Elizabeth Prelogar (from 1:35:11 in the arguments)

Segment 3: How will the Court fix this problem?  (starting at 25:43)

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC. 

Media reports about Christian nationalism are often tied to topline takeaways from research on the political ideology. Amanda and Holly review various definitions of the term “Christian nationalism,” look at its connection to – and distinctiveness from – the Christian faith, and talk about why sociological research on this topic matters.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1: Definitions of Christian nationalism (starting at 00:48)

The Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign defines Christian nationalism in the statement of principles.

Dr. Andrew Whitehead and Dr. Samuel Perry defined Christian nationalism in their 2020 book Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States. You can also see their definition on a 1-page handout available on the Christians Against Christian Nationalism website.  

Dr. Jemar Tisby shared his definition in a recent Substack post: A Virtual Roundtable on the Threat of Christian Nationalism, Part 2 of 4

Dr. Anthea Butler defined white Christian nationalism in her contribution to Christian Nationalism and the January 6, 2021, Insurrection. Her section is on pages 4-6.

Russell Moore defined Christian nationalism in this piece for Christianity Today: Christian Nationalism Cannot Save the World

Dr. Paul Miller defined Christian nationalism in this piece for Christianity Today: What is Christian nationalism? 

Segment 2: What’s “Christian” about Christian nationalism? (starting at 16:08)

Amanda and Holly discussed this piece from The New Yorker by Kelefa Sanneh: Under God: How Christian is Christian nationalism?

Segment 3: Why do polling results matter? (starting at 24:12)

The PRRI/Brookings survey discussed is called A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.