Respecting Religion

Get an inside look at the U.S. House of Representatives and the challenges of Christian nationalism in this week's episode. Amanda Tyler and Holly Hollman take you behind-the-scenes of Amanda's testimony to Congress, held on the same day lawmakers elected Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., to be Speaker of the House. They share key moments from the hearing on religious freedom around the world, including a powerful moment with Rep. Maxwell Frost, D-Fla. Plus, they discuss troubling statements from Speaker Johnson, his embrace of Christian nationalism, and how he might navigate his new role.

Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): Returning to testify before Congress

Read Amanda's written testimony at this link.

Watch a portion of Amanda's opening statement at this link, and watch the entire hearing on the YouTube channel of the U.S. House Oversight's Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs.

Learn more about the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom here. It is also known by its initials USCIRF, pronounced "You-Surf" in conversation.

The United Nations has a website page devoted to the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which will be Dec 10, 2023.

Read more about BJC's advocacy fighting the travel ban here.

Segment 2 (starting at 17:34): Questions from Congress and an exchange with Rep. Maxwell Frost

You can watch the exchange with Amanda and Rep. Frost at this link.

Segment 3 (starting at 30:08): Speaker Mike Johnson and Christian nationalism

Amanda is quoted in this article by Nick Mordowanec for Newsweek: Mike Johnson Uses Bible to Justify 'Aggression,' Urges Christians to Fight

Amanda is quoted in this article by Peter Smith for the Associated Press: Christian conservatives cheer one of their own as Mike Johnson assumes Congress' most powerful seat

Brian Kaylor and Jeremy Fuzy of Word&Way wrote this piece on Speaker Mike Johnson for the "A Public Witness" newsletter: Christian nationalism in the Speaker's chair

Dr. Kristin Du Mez did a Q&A with Politico's Katelyn Fossett about Speaker Johnson: 'He Seems to Be Saying His Commitment Is to Minority Rule'

Dr. Andrew Whitehead and Dr. Samuel Perry wrote this piece for TIME magazine: The Christian Nationalism of Speaker Mike Johnson

Amanda mentioned Dr. Walter B. "Buddy" Shurden's writings on Baptist history. Click here to read a copy of his "How We Got That Way" presentation on Baptists and religious liberty.

Holly mentioned this piece in The New Yorker by David Kirpatrick on ADF: The next targets for the group that overturned Roe

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Has the Supreme Court abandoned the Establishment Clause test for some sort of "history" test when applying the law? Today, we're looking at a 2014 Supreme Court case that continues to have major implications on Supreme Court decisions: Greece v. Galloway. Amanda and Holly review this sharply divided decision on legislative prayer, explore the differences in the prayer practice of Congress and the practice in local town meetings, and look at the ongoing impact of this decision, including how it was used in the Kennedy v. Bremerton ruling in 2022.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:51): What's the difference between legislative prayer and prayer at local town meetings?

Amanda and Holly discuss the decision in Kennedy v. Bremerton on episode 21 of season 3.

Learn more about Greece v. Galloway on our page dedicated to the case, available at this link. It includes a link to our friend-of-the-court brief and other resources.

BJC's Nan Futrell Liles wrote about the constitutional anomaly in the 1983 case of Marsh v. Chambers in this column from 2013: A legal look at local government prayer

Segment 2 (starting at 20:56): The decision and the dissent in Greece v. Galloway

Read Justice Anthony Kennedy's decision in Greece v. Galloway and Justice Elena Kagan's dissent at this link.

Segment 3 (starting at 30:41): The problems with this new 'history' test

Read the Kennedy v. Bremerton opinion and dissent at this link.

Amanda and Holly mentioned two recent disputes about prayer in local government meetings. Here are news articles covering them:

• Alabama: Anti-LGBTQ comments in Mobile raise questions about prayer before public meetings by John Sharp for AL.com
• Connecticut: Enfield school board meetings no longer begin with prayer following complaint by Susan Danseyar and Eric Bedner for CT Insider.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

What happens when you talk about Christian nationalism with the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, a historian who wrote a book on white evangelical racism, and the lead organizer of Christians Against Christian Nationalism? Find out as we bring you portions of a panel conversation recorded in September during the Texas Tribune Festival. The Rev. Dr. Bart Barber, Dr. Anthea Butler, and Amanda Tyler talk about Christian nationalism's connection to the January 6 attack, Baptist history, American history, Christian citizenship, and much more. You might hear surprising areas of agreement in this honest, in-depth, and animated conversation.

Segment 1 (starting at 02:35): Introduction to today's show

We are playing excerpts from a conversation from the Texas Tribune Festival, recorded on September 22, 2023.

The participants are:

• Amanda Tyler, executive director of BJC, lead organizer of Christians Against Christian Nationalism, and co-host of Respecting Religion
• Rev. Dr. Bart Barber, president of the Southern Baptist Convention and pastor of First Baptist Church of Farmersville, Texas
• Dr. Anthea Butler, the Geraldine R. Segal Professor in American Social Thought and chair of the Religious Studies Department at the University of Pennsylvania. She is the author of White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America
• Moderator Robert Downen, Texas Tribune reporter covering democracy and threats to it; previously, he covered religion at the Houston Chronicle

Amanda shared a video clip of the conversation on her X account, which you can view here.

The Bloudy Tenet of Persecution was written by Roger Williams in 1644.

Segment 2 (starting at 11:59): The overlaps of Christian nationalism

Read more about the push in Texas to install public school "chaplains" at this link: BJConline.org/publicschoolchaplains

Segment 3 (starting at 19:24): The draw of Christian nationalism and Christian involvement in politics

Dr. Butler's book is White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America.

You can read the Southern Baptist Convention's statement of faith at this link. Article XVII is about religious liberty.

Segment 4 (starting at 31:23): Christian nationalism in churches and in politics

Read the Christians Against Christian Nationalism statement and learn more about the campaign at this link.

Segment 5 (starting at 37:21): Christian nationalism and the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol

Read the report on Christian Nationalism and the January 6, 2021, Insurrection at this link. It was produced by BJC and the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and features contributions from Amanda Tyler and Dr. Anthea Butler, along with many others.

Read the letter submitted to the January 6 Select Committee from Christian leaders at this link.

Watch Rep. Jared Huffman's floor speech about Christian nationalism here.

Watch Amanda Tyler's testimony to Congress on Christian nationalism here. She discusses it in episode 9 of season 4 of Respecting Religion.

Segment 6 (starting at 43:51): Differences in Christian nationalism and faith-based advocacy

Read the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" at this link.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Is the Supreme Court immune from public pressure? What is the role of the government when it comes to nondiscrimination laws, gender identity, and posting Scripture? As we begin season 5 of Respecting Religion, Amanda Tyler and Holly Hollman take live questions from an audience on these topics and more. Hear their updates from the summer as they share what we can expect from this new Supreme Court term, as well as how decisions are impacting our country at all levels.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 1:18): Welcome back for season 5

Amanda spoke about the role of religious nationalism in the Israel-Gaza War this week at a church in Pennsylvania during a previously-scheduled talk on Christian nationalism. "I believe God weeps at the sight of God's children killing one another, and God yearns for peace," she said. You can watch her remarks here.

Amanda and Holly discussed the decisions in Groff v. DeJoy and 303 Creative v. Elenis in our season 4 finale.

Read Holly's column on Groff: The Supreme Court got something right on religion

Read more reactions to the Supreme Court's decision striking down race-conscious college admissions in this article from BJC's fall magazine, including the statement from the BJC Center for Faith, Justice and Reconciliation.

Holly talked about the new Supreme Court term in this article by Pamela Manson for UPI: Religious liberty cases could land on Supreme Court docket this term

Amanda mentioned this op-ed she wrote for CNN: New Texas law deprives families of religious liberty rights

Read more about Amanda's move to Texas in her recent column: Faith freedom across the country

Segment 2 (starting at 12:00): Questions from our audience

The first question referred to remarks Justice Samuel Alito made about supposed hostility to religion in a 2022 speech, which you can watch here.

This episode was recorded during Banned Books Week, which took place from October 1-7. Learn more on the website of the American Library Association.

Learn more about the troubling law in Texas requiring school boards to vote on creating a "chaplain" program and how you can take action on our website at BJConline.org/publicschoolchaplains

Amanda mentioned this statement from the current and former leaders of Texas Baptists denouncing "School Choice Sunday." Read more in this article by Ken Camp for the Baptist Standard: BGCT leaders call Gov. Abbott's appeal 'out of bounds'

Amanda and Holly had an in-depth discussion on the Respect for Marriage Act in episode 7 of season 4.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Season 5 of the Respecting Religion podcast launches in October 2023! Tune in as BJC's Amanda Tyler and Holly Hollman discuss the Supreme Court, the continued rise of Christian nationalism, and a multitude of current issues impacting faith freedom for all.

Here's a look at a few of the topics covered in season 4, including the ReAwaken America tour, federal regulations about religious expression in school, the National Prayer Breakfast, and various ways the two religion clauses of the First Amendment impact our life and protect the institutional separation of church and state. You can watch this trailer on YouTube at this link: https://youtu.be/MwnSSS6rGfs?feature=shared

You can find all episodes of Respecting Religion -- including transcripts -- at RespectingReligion.org or BJConline.org/respectingreligion.

The Supreme Court waited until the last two days of its term to release two decisions with religious liberty implications. On this season 4 finale of the Respecting Religion podcast, Amanda and Holly look at the unanimous clarifying decision in Groff v. DeJoy and the deeply regressive decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis. They discuss the implications of both of these decisions, noting the conspicuous lack of snark in Justice Samuel Alito's Groff decision and Justice Neil Gorsuch's defensive attempt to make his big decision seem not all that remarkable.

SHOW NOTES:

Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): The clarifying decision in Groff v. DeJoy

This season, Amanda and Holly previewed the Groff v. DeJoy case in episode 17 and reviewed the oral arguments in episode 19.

Holly released this statement after the decision on June 29, which was mentioned in this article from SCOTUSblog: Justices rule in favor of evangelical postal worker.

Read the decision by Justice Samuel Alito and concurrence by Justice Sonia Sotomayor at this link.

For more resources, visit BJC's page on the case: BJConline.org/Groff.

Segment 2 (starting at 13:08): The problems with the 303 Creative v. Elenis decision

Amanda and Holly discussed the oral arguments for 303 Creative v. Elenis in episode 8 – an episode we titled "hypotheticals, reeducation, and a preemptive claim."

Read the opinion by Justice Neil Gorsuch and the dissent by Justice Sonia Sotomayor at this link.

Segment 3 (starting at 38:55): Saying farewell to season four

Thank you to our listeners and to everyone who contributes to this program. Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Visit our website for transcripts of episodes throughout season four: https://bjconline.org/respectingreligion/

It happens in pretty much every administration, but what do you know about federal guidelines on religion in public schools? Holly and Amanda discuss the new release from the Biden administration outlining the different rights of students and teachers, and they share how some are misinterpreting the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision to open the door to more government-sponsored religious exercises. They also look at what we saw happen at the end of the Texas Legislature's session in relation to bills that would impact religious freedom, and they review this week's alarming news that an Oklahoma board voted to fund a religious public charter school.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:47): What should we pay attention to in the new guidance on religion in public schools?

Amanda and Holly discussed the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision in our season finale last year (season 3, ep. 21). You can read BJC's brief and see additional resources at BJConline.org/Bremerton.

You can read Holly's column on the new federal guidelines in our summer magazine: Good news on the religious freedom frontlines

Read the new guidelines on prayer and religious expression in public schools on the Department of Education's website. You can watch remarks from Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona on YouTube.

Amanda and Holly discussed this piece by Linda Wertheimer published by The New Republic: Inside the Christian legal campaign to return prayer to public schools. You can also read it online via The Hechinger Report.

Segment 2 (starting at 20:43): Texas update

Amanda and Holly discussed the proposed Ten Commandments legislation in Texas on episode 20 and episode 21 of this season.

Holly and Amanda mentioned this piece by Robert Downen for TheTexas Tribune: Unlicensed religious chaplains may counsel students in Texas' public schools after lawmakers OK proposal

They also mentioned this piece by Jack Jenkins for Religion News Service: Meet the activists who spearheaded the Texas chaplains bill

Segment 3 (starting at 26:53): New news out of Oklahoma

Amanda Tweeted her response – and the response of Oklahoma's attorney general – after the approval of the first-ever religious charter school.

Holly mentioned this piece by Sarah Mervosh for The New York Times: Oklahoma Approves First Religious Charter School in the U.S.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

What does the myth of American "chosenness" mean for different communities and the rise of Christian nationalism? Episcopal Bishop and Cherokee nation member Carol Gallagher, Baptist minister Rev. Darrell Hamilton, and Dr. Michael Hober­man, a scholar of early American Jewish literature and culture, engage in a conversation moderated by the Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley, a minister and professor of gender studies and ethnic studies. Dr. Catherine Brekus of Harvard Divinity School joins them, too, as they react to her lecture about how the myth of "chosenness" leads to much of the religious nationalism in our country today, including how scriptures were used to justify colonialism.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:40): Context for this panel

Hear Dr. Catherine Brekus' presentation in episode 23, or watch it online.

Meet our panelists:

The Rt. Rev. Carol Gallagher, Ph.D. serves as the assistant bishop in the Episcopal Church's Diocese of Massachusetts. An enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation, Bishop Gallagher previously served the diocese as a regional canon. Before that, starting in 2014, she served as assistant bishop in the Diocese of Montana, developing relationships with Native leaders and congregations there; educating and training clergy and lay leaders on issues of race, gender and inclusion; and leading the Task Force on Native Issues.

Dr. Michael Hober­man teach­es Amer­i­can lit­er­a­ture at Fitch­burg State Uni­ver­si­ty. He is a grad­u­ate of Reed Col­lege and earned his Ph.D. from the Uni­ver­si­ty of Mass­a­chu­setts Amherst. His pre­vi­ous books include A Hundred Acres of America: The Geography of Jewish American Literary History and New Israel/New England: Jews and Puritans in Early America.

The Rev. Darrell Hamilton is an ordained Baptist minister and graduate from Wake Forest School of Divinity, where he earned his Master of Divinity in 2017. He earned his degree in Political Science from the University of Central Oklahoma in 2012. Currently, the Rev. Hamilton serves at the First Baptist Church in Jamaica Plain as Administrative Pastor and as Protestant Chaplain at Babson College. The Rev. Hamilton was a BJC intern in spring 2016.

The Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley (moderator) is an Assistant Professor of Gender Studies and Ethnic Studies at the University of Utah. During the 2022-2023 academic year, she is the Research Fellow at Old North Illuminated in Boston. Old North Illuminated is the secular 501(c)(3) that preserves the Old North Church and interprets its history. Her research, teaching, and writing consider the themes of historical memory, race, religion, gender, and abolition. Jaimie is an ordained minister whose ordination is recognized by the American Baptist Churches USA. The Rev. Dr. Crumley is a member of the BJC Board of Directors and of the 2016 class of BJC Fellows.

This presentation was the 2023 Walter B. and Kay W. Shurden Lecture on Religious Liberty and Separation of Church and State, an annual lecture series sponsored by BJC. It took place at Old North Church in Boston.

Segment 2 (starting at 1:39): The panel conversation

You can also watch the panel at this link.

During the conversation, Dr. Crumley mentioned this piece by Dr. Brekus on American "chosenness."

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

How does the myth of America being a "chosen" nation lead to the religious nationalism we see today? Harvard Divinity School's Dr. Catherine Brekus talks about how the myth is a complicated mixture of arrogance, exploitation, reform, racism and violence. She looks at the roots of this myth, how it has played out through our country's history, and the ways that the recent surge of white Christian nationalism reflects a deep uneasiness about the loss of Christian privilege in this country.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:47): Meet Dr. Catherine Brekus

Dr. Catherine Brekus is Charles Warren Professor of the History of Religion in America at Harvard Divinity School, Chair of the Committee on the Study of Religion in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, and an associate member of the Program in American Studies and the Department of History. Her research focuses on the relationship between religion and American culture, with particular emphasis on the history of women, gender, Christianity, and the evangelical movement. Currently, she is writing a book about the relationship between American nationalism and Christianity and co-authoring a biography of Sarah Edwards (1710-1758) with Harry Stout and Ken Minkema.

Read more about her on Harvard Divinity School's website.

This presentation was the 2023 Walter B. and Kay W. Shurden Lecture on Religious Liberty and Separation of Church and State, an annual lecture series sponsored by BJC. Dr. Brekus gave this presentation at Old North Church in Boston.

Segment 2 (starting at 2:30): The myth of American 'chosenness'

You can watch the presentation online at this link.

Dr. Brekus' presentation was followed by a panel discussion that included Dr. Brekus; The Rt. Rev. Carol Gallagher, PhD; the Rev. Darrell Hamilton; and Dr. Michael Hober­man. It was moderated by the Rev. Dr. Jaimie Crumley. Our next episode will bring you their conversation.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Christian nationalism is on full display at stops of the ReAwaken America tour – conferences that fuse Christian language and symbols with conspiracy theories and election denials. Amanda went inside the most recent one at a Trump property in Miami, and she shares her experiences in this podcast – from assembly-line baptisms to the reaction of the crowd as speakers moved seamlessly from religious worship songs to calls for political violence.

SHOW NOTES Segment 1 (starting at 00:48): The Christian nationalism of the ReAwaken America tour

Amanda and Holly discussed the ReAwaken America tour in episode 5 of season 4: Christian nationalism and the midterm elections

Amanda and Holly mention this article about the ReAwaken Tour in The New York Times by Michelle Goldberg: Whose Version of Christian Nationalism Will Win in 2024?

Amanda wrote a response to Michael Flynn's call for "one religion" in 2021, published by Baptist News Global: If you're paying attention to Christian nationalism, you won't be shocked by Michael Flynn's call for 'one religion under God'

Segment 2 (starting at 05:29): The Pastors for Trump event

Amanda and Holly mentioned this article on the Pastors for Trump group by Peter Stone for The Guardian: Pro-Trump pastors rebuked for 'overt embrace of white Christian nationalism'

During this segment, we played a clip of Pastor John Bennett speaking during the Pastors for Trump event in Miami.

Segment 3 (starting at 15:34): ReAwaken America, baptisms, and our counter-witness

Amanda and Holly mentioned Brian Kaylor's reporting on the ReAwaken America tour. You can see his twitter thread with clips from Miami and read his latest piece in the A Public Witness newsletter, which is part of the Word&Way network: Michael Flynn's Soup for the Soulless

For more about Baptism and different ways Christian denominations approach it, check out this story from 2001 by the PBS program Religion and Ethics Newsweekly.

BJC and Faithful America created electronic billboards that were on trucks and a boat in Miami. See the video of the billboards in this post on the @EndChristianNationailsm Instagram account.

Visit ChristiansAgainstChristianNationalism.org to explore the resources provided by the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, including a statement anyone who identifies as a Christian can sign.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC's generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.