How can we grow into our full potential?—living up to what we know is the best version of ourselves, actualizing our goals, and expressing our deepest purpose in a life of impact and love?

Grounded in cognitive science and psychology, best-selling author, podcaster, educator and researcher Scott Barry Kaufman believes that we need to redefine our understanding of greatness and excellence to include our whole selves—our emotions, dreams, failures, and gifts—all to live a life that is fully human, fully yourself.

In this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, we discuss:

• Education and formation for the whole person, not just our intellect but our bodies, emotions, and spirituality
• Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the journey that leads to self-actualization
• The difference it makes to see the world through growth rather than our deficiencies
• What it means to thrive even in the midst of mental illness
• The horizontal dimensions of transcendence
• And how to connect and align with your deepest values

Episode Highlights

1. “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
2. “Self-actualization is bringing your whole self to the table—not just one part of you.”
3. “Real transcendence is about becoming one with the world—not being more enlightened than others.”
4. “People are far more likely to demand respect than to give it.”
5. “Only you can walk the path.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• Visit scottbarrykaufman.com
• The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman
• Choose Growth Workbook by Kaufman & Feingold
• *Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization,* by Scott Barry Kaufman
• Scientific American: Spiritual Narcissism
• The Lights Triad Personality Test
• Sensitive Men Rising Documentary
• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Reimagined – Big Think
• Corey Mascara Podcast on Values

Show Notes

• Origin Story and Human Complexity
• Scott shares his journey from being labeled “ungifted” with an auditory disability to becoming a cognitive scientist.
• A pivotal teacher asked, “What are you still doing here?”—sparking self-belief and ambition.
• “I was a champion for the quirky kids from the start.”
• His work has shifted from an early obsession with greatness to a lifelong pursuit of self-actualization.
• “Greatness is tied up in power and status. Self-actualization is about bringing your whole self.”
• Reimagining Maslow & The Sailboat Metaphor
• Kaufman replaces the hierarchy of needs with a dynamic sailboat metaphor.
• The boat represents safety (security, connection, self-esteem); the sail represents growth and transcendence.
• “Unless we open our sail and become vulnerable to the wind, we can't move toward what matters.”
• Adds collective dimension: “There are other boats in the sea. Some people forget that.”
• Contrasts “horizontal transcendence” (connection) with “spiritual narcissism” (superiority).
• Mental Illness, Creativity, and Thriving
• Challenges the binary between wellness and illness: “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
• Cites research showing creative strengths in children of those with mental illness.
• “They get the goodies without the baddies—the imagination without the psychosis.”
• Dismantles false dichotomies in psychiatry: labels vs. lived experience.
• Encourages integration rather than repression of neurodivergence and emotion.
• Alignment, Identity, and Individual Growth
• Alignment—not perfection—is the goal of self-actualization.
• “Self-actualization coaching isn’t about judgment. It’s about helping people align with their values.”
• Different people prioritize different values: connection, power, freedom, meaning.
• Encourages reflection: What roles do you cherish most? What do you say yes and no to?
• “Ask: What’s my reason for being? What legacy do I want to leave?”
• Moral Psychology and Mattering
• Discusses mattering and the perils of performative self-importance.
• “Some people matter too much… they take up so much space, there’s no room for others.”
• Proposes a “mattering ecology” for shared dignity and contribution.
• On moral flexibility: “People who scream loudest often don’t like themselves.”
• Calls for emotional regulation, reflection, and collective moral grounding in a polarized world.
• Relationships, Whole Love, and Spirituality
• Introduces the concept of “whole love”—where all parts of the self are seen, accepted, and growing together.
• “It's as simple and as hard as that.”
• Critiques spiritual narcissism and “dark empaths” who use others for ego validation.
• Real empathy requires asking: “Am I helping this person for their sake—or because I need to be needed?”
• “Good character doesn’t need an excuse.”
• Practical Takeaways & Coaching Tools
• Directs listeners to Choose Growth, a practical workbook co-authored with Dr. Jordan Feingold.
• Reflection prompts: What am I proud of? What do I wish to change? What’s my legacy?
• Encourages clarity around values and meaningful roles.
• Offers self-coaching questions to foster personal development and alignment.
• Provides listeners with tools for discernment, purpose, and sustainable growth.
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• Science and spirituality work together as an integrated pursuit of truth.
• Intelligence is so much more than a thought-process.
• Self-actualization leads us well beyond the self.
• Life is like a sailboat: so let the wind fill your sails as you dance on the waves toward our most valued harbor—and may the tides rise for all of us.
• To be a whole-person means resting in a loving compassion for ourselves and others—an openness and oneness with the world.
• “Many people could carry you across the bridge, but only you can walk the path.”

About Scott Barry Kaufman

Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive scientist, author, and humanistic psychologist exploring the depths of human potential. He is the founding director of the Center for Human Potential and a the best-selling author, speaker, and podcaster. He hosts The Psychology Podcast. And he is author and/or editor of numerous books, including his celebrated *Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization, Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined*, as well as his latest books, Choose Growth: A Workbook for Transcending Trauma, Fear, and Self-Doubt and Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. If you’re interested in more from Scott, visit scottbarrykaufman.com.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.