Kimberly is joined by luminary thinker Dr. Betty Martin as they discuss the evolution and impact of the Wheel of Consent, a vanguard model for enthusiastic consent, asking for what you want, and living out embodied intimacy. Dr. Martin, who developed the model, shares her journey from creating the wheel through her hands-on workshops to writing a book so the wheel may reach an even larger audience, with Kimberly noting just how deep of an impact Betty's work has had on Kimberly's teaching and offerings. They explore the challenges of enthusiastic consent, the importance of feeling with one's hands, and the universal nature, as well as the cultural nuances, of touch and sex. Betty emphasizes the need for accurate teaching and the development of the wheel of consent in various fields, including therapy, businesses and social justice. The conversation highlights the significance of embodiment and the incomparable emotional impact of present and thoughtful touch.

Bio

Dr. Betty Martin spent her childhood in a large family and her youth in experimental communities, learning about people in more groups than she can count. Founding a co-housing community with countless hours of meetings taught her the value of excellent facilitation. Now she enjoys helping others learn the skills she picked up along the way.

She graduated Chiropractic College in 1976 and practiced for almost 30 years, including several body-mind integration modalities. She has taught Peer Counseling for teens and adults, Educational Kinesiology and other bodywork for professionals, sexuality workshops for women, gender liberation, and boundary and communication workshops of many flavors, including Cuddle Party.

After retiring from her Chiropractic practice on Vashon Island, she moved into Seattle and opened a private practice as a relationship and intimacy coach, where she guided people through somatic experiences, sometimes erotic and sometimes not, so they could learn how to be comfortable in their own skin and experience pleasure in ways that supported their development.

It was during those years of working with hundreds of people that she noticed and developed the Wheel of Consent, a practice and a model of taking apart receiving and giving. She started sharing her experience with other practitioners and developed the 5-day training, Like a Pro, focusing on the Wheel, communication and professional standards.

In 2018 she co-founded the School of Consent, where she has trained numerous facilitators of Wheel of Consent workshops, and a handful of faculty to teach Like a Pro. She is happily handing over teaching to those she has trained, and these days contributes to other organizations' trainings and presents to various professional groups. She also enjoys offering supervision and mentoring to practitioners.

She once again lives in community and is the proud mom of 3 and grandma of 2.

What You'll Hear

• Dr. Martin's background in chiropractic, body-mind integration modalities, and her development of the wheel of consent

• Betty's 13 year writing process and how her clients led her to constantly evolve her concepts for the book

• The development of the Three-Minute Game the value of taking turns and asking for what you want

• Why receiving can often be harder than giving.

• The importance of touch and attention to intimacy

• Why training new teachers is so important to Dr. Martin

• They discuss cultural differences as it relates to touch and sex

• The emergence of the term enthusiastic consent

• The reach of The Wheel of Consent from relationships to communities to businesses to social movements

• The exercise of waking up the hands to improve ability to feel with them

Resources

Website: https://www.wheelofconsent.org/

Ig: @drbettymartin

Book: https://www.wheelofconsent.org/thebook

Activate Your Inner Jaguar: Sexuality and the Nervous System sign up link is here

In this episode, Kimberly and Elena discuss and reflect on their life experiences through nearly two decades of knowing one another. They discuss radical forgiveness for our families of origin, the importance of stillness and meditation, children leaving the home, and menopause. They also discuss what led Elena to write her upcoming book "Hold Nothing," which offers stories and prompts as an artful contemplative guide towards personal, daily practice for self-discovery and self-wisdom. Kimberly reads powerful excerpts aloud, and you can preorder the book in the link below.

Bio

Elena Brower is a mother, mentor, poet, artist, volunteer, bestselling author, and podcast host. She is a celebrated international yoga and meditation teacher on Glo, guiding transformative practices since 1999. Her books include the "Art of Attention: A Yoga Practice Workbook for Movement as Meditation," bestselling journal "Practice You and Being You" her collection of poetry entitled "Softening Time," along with her courses, classes, and talks, explore stages of studentship, practice, life, and listening. Her latest book "Hold Nothing" investigates what it means to let go of narratives and return to the spacious emptiness within. She also has a column on Substack and podcast Practice You. She offers weekly classes and is a candidate in Upaya's Chaplaincy Training. She volunteers in hospice and penitentiary settings, bringing yoga, meditation, and compassionate presence to her local and broader communities.

What She Shares:

–Forgiveness, repair and acceptance

–Practice of daily stillness and stability

–Powerful excerpts from new book

–Excerpts read from new book "Hold Nothing"

What You'll Hear:

–What sticks with Kimberly from Elena's teachings

–Elena forgiving mother

–Mercy and forgiveness for family of origen

–Holding onto grudges instead of real repair

–Impacting our actual spheres

–Incentivizing holding grudges long-term in culture

–Having direct contact with the present

–In contact with body as medicine

–Everyone doing their best at all times

–Making our consciousness transparent to ourselves

–Why Elena wanted to write a new book

–Meditations and personal writings

–Universal permission slip to be tender with ourselves

–How stories, prompts, and artwork came about

–Impact of writing in present tense

–Getting reader in scene that unfolds as if happening presently

–Reading excerpt from book on uncertainty

–Daily sitting in stillness to allow thoughts to emerge

–Importance of humility in work

–Addressing accusations, controversies, and publicness

–Importance of relationships, close inner-circle, close proximity

–Bringing down women taking initiatives to serve

–Evolving definition of family

–Staying present and listening during hard conversations

–Children leaving home for college

–Mothering young adults

–Conflicting emotions with children leaving home

–Advice for mothers in new paradigm shifts

–Kimberly's fresh experience taking Cece to college

–Opening to stability

–Stabilizing principle at center of every circumstance

–Turning chaos to stability

–Working in a vacuum to focus on own work

–Addressing issues of AI as writers and teachers

–Focus, devotion, returning to what matters

–Menopausal transitions with weights, HRT, supplements, sleep, friends

–Regulating nervous system through menopause

–Elena's Matter of Menopause podcast for menopause education

–Kimberly's underworld experience of menopause

–Hormones are gods

–Preorder upcoming book "Hold Nothing"

Resources

Website: https://elenabrower.com/ and https://elenabrower.com/menopause/

IG: @elenabrower

Jaguar Sex Edition Sign Up Here

Bio

Michel Odent, MD, is a French obstetrician trained as a general surgeon known for his tireless research on how environmental factors present during pregnancy and birth affect babies, children, and our communities. He is the founder of the Primal Health Research Centre and authored the first articles on the initiation of lactation and the use of birthing pools. He has authored 15 books and passed on August 19, 2025.

What He Shares:

• Why birth is an important subject not only for birth workers, but for all people interested in the future of our species.
• Why the period of birth is a critical period in a person's life
• The inability to study the long-term, non-specific affect of modern pregnancy and birth practices
• Exploring the changes in Homo sapiens resulting from birthing practices

What You'll Hear:

• How birthing hormones affect our biological programing
• Understanding the needs of a laboring person
• Why the microbiome of a newborn baby affects a their lifelong health
• How the future of our species is being modified based on birth environments
• Discovering the correlation between birth choices and children's behavior
• Developing appropriate questions around new pregnancy and birth practices
• Improving research ability to answer unknowns
• The difficulty of understanding the long term risk factors of birthing choices
• Prioritizing the development of new research questions
• Why pregnancy is not the best time to educate yourself on these issues
• Expanding our view beyond the individual choices to the medical establishment
• Becoming bilingual in the languages of intuitive knowledge and scientific research
• Exploring how making birth a social event altered the fetal ejection reflex
• How technological advancements have altered birth

Links

Youtube of the Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPKd9TmyMB0

In this episode, Kimberly and Sarah Wildeman dive into the importance of community and relational support and the experiences that led each of them to prioritize community building so centrally in each of their lives. Sarah shares her journey from a communal Christian upbringing to building her own "space of welcome" as an adult. Both Kimberly and Sarah emphasize the need for practical community-building practices, balancing personal needs with community support, and the challenges of maintaining a village in today's world. Sarah's "Our Common Life" program offers a four-month course to help individuals build meaningful community experiences, addressing topics like belonging, conflict resolution, and relational practices as mothers.

About Sarah

My 'work' in the world is to be a guide and companion, a seer and seeker of beauty, a soul reviver, activator, and community builder. At my core I am driven by deep and meaningful relationships and find my greatest joy in building intentional relational containers to facilitate learning and growth. I am known for my ability to get beyond what presents on the surface to the underlying beliefs or patterns that keep you stuck. I speak honestly and directly with gentleness and clarity. Whether in a group, or one-on-one, my ability to truly see people allows me to call them to their highest potential.My experience working and coaching in complex organizational dynamics has equipped me to work with people to navigate nuanced relationships with authenticity and courage, empowering individuals and teams to get creative and create lasting change. I have a unique inclination to both emotional intuition and strategic thinking, which allows me to create spaciousness while still helping you to 'get stuff done'.

With nearly a decade's worth of intentional community living, I am particularly drawn to building rich gathering spaces. I have been a long-time space holder for leaders and community builders as they carry the responsibility of serving others. I have not pursued a status-quo approach to life, and feel uniquely suited to support visionaries in living into their callings.I am also 'Mom' to two strong, beautiful, passionate, creative daughters. Mothering them has been the greatest course there ever was in leadership and personal growth. Family is one of the ways I deeply experience and tend community in my life. My business operates out of Coldstream, BC, which we humbly acknowledge is in the unceded territory of the Syilx tmix , Secwepemcúl'ecw, and Okanagan First Nations.

What they discuss:

• Sarah's upbringing and relationship to ceremony/rites of passage as a child in a non-demonitional Christian church

• What's an open door policy for a family home?

• How to find community if it's not through a formal religion?

• How to find a space of belonging that aligns with us as as adults

• How do we navigate the loss of community and loss of village?

• Living in an intentional community Christian community with a focus on environmental stewardship

• What role do faith and community play in our sense of belonging?

• How to navigate differences with a spouse in what you are seeking when it comes to communal living?

• How do you balance family and communal needs?

• The power of a web of support for families?

• How communities are insurance policies for care and support.

• How mothering and child care bring community practices to the fore.

• Challenges of building community, including the exhaustion and overwhelm that can come from new practices and habits.

• The importance of compassion and self-awareness in the process of building community, recognizing that it may start small and gradually grow.

• Strategies for building community, such as starting with small, manageable actions and gradually expanding to larger projects.

• Introduces her re-villaging program, "Our Common Life" a four-month journey that provides resources and support for building community.

Resources

On this episode, Kimberly and, author, artist, and researcher, Jamie Mustard dive deep into Jamie's childhood in Scientology and his healing and research quest to understand his complex childhood PTSI (Post-Traumatic Stress Injury). This conversation moves between Mustard's autobiographical story, which features heavily in his upcoming novel Child X and graphic novel Hybred, in addition to his previous research into trauma that stemmed from a transformative experience with Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) treatment. After benefitting so deeply from the treatment, Jamie spent years researching The Invisible Machine, the book he co-wrote with Dr. Eugen Lipov, the doctor who developed the treatment, and which features input from many leaders across the trauma field. Jamie emphasizes the importance of addressing trauma as a biological injury rather than a disorder. He goes into detail about his work across victims of trauma from soldiers to sexual assault survivors to former gang members who all benefited from SGB treatment that resets the sympathetic nervous system, significantly reducing trauma symptoms. Jamie also discusses the role of brain health in trauma recovery and the potential of alternative therapies like ketamine and psilocybin. In the second half of the conversation, Jamie details his harrowing experiences as a baby in Scientology's notorious Sea Org's, and the effects of severe neglect, medical issues, and emotional abuse on his adulthood. Jamie highlights the systemic destruction of empathy and the mind-body connection within Scientology. He emphasizes the importance of his book in raising awareness about the lost children of Scientology, as well as the intersection of race and his family's history, framing his story as a quest for humanism and resilience. You can best support Jamie's work by pre-ordering the Child X and Hybred at the links below!

Bio

Jamie Mustard was born into one of the most influential fringe movements in the 1970s: Scientology. Raised on a mythos of spaceships and made to believe that it was his life's purpose to help save the world, he was determined to survive — not only unsurvivable neglect but also the impossible physical and psychological gauntlet of extreme poverty and illiteracy. Child X (BenBella Books) is a dark existential journey into a deepest hole of human existence and the road back. The unbelievable story of a lost generation of children, Child X takes readers through Mustard's childhood and adolescence in "the movement," his daring escape, and his rise into self-possession. With wit and vulnerability, Mustard sheds light on one of the untold, but not uncommon, accounts of a powerful Black family that rose from the ashes of slavery to prominence and wealth, and how the counterculture of the 1960s and 70s caused that rise to crumble. This deeply personal true story gives a child's-eye view of one of the most notorious American religious movements in history. Despite his family's success, Jamie would be born a slave and then reborn an artist. Through extraordinary encounters with celebrity, icons, and historical figures, it also powerfully places Black American history in the larger context of world events. A universal story of resilience in the face of overwhelming odds, Child X celebrates yet transcends race — and is ultimately an uplifting, impossible-to-believe story of rising out of adversity and building a life full of meaning and connection. With this book, Mustard continues working to restore his family's legacy and provides a salient saga of the road to humanity and self-possession.

What You'll Hear:

• Why Jamie hesitates to call himself a survivor

• Why Jamie doesn't refer to Scientology as a cult

• How an artist and art director dove headlong into trauma research

• The ins and outs of Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) treatment for PTSD/PTSI

• Jamie's extensive research on PTSD/PTSI treatment modalities

• Jamie's encounters with Stephen Porges, Gabor Maté, Peter Lavine, and Daniel Amen, and military psychologists on Fort Bragg.

• How Scientology's Mission translates to severe childhood neglect

• The consequences of Medical neglect for infants

• The justifications savior-complex-driven parents use to emotionally separate from their child

• The way that Scientology's ideology treats feelings and ailments

• The impact of hiding health issues

• The power of self-blame

• How Child X focuses more on the emotional effects than the sensationalist events

• What are the retaliation tactics of Scientology for speaking out?

• Jamie's African-American family history including the Tuskegee Airmen and generations of doctors

Links

Website: iconist.ltd

IG: @jamie_mustard (Jamie encourages you to direct any questions to him over DM)

Pre-Order Child X here

Pre-Order Hybred here

In this episode, Kimberly and Bethany discuss their reflections and experiences of attachment and mothering their adult children. Bethany describes changes in how she viewed herself and parenting while her daughter became an adult herself while Kimberly shares her experiences mothering her daughter who is about to move out of their home for the first time. They share challenges, frustrations, and confusing moments around their attachment and parenting, particularly as they age themselves. As most parenting content focuses on the early years, this conversation reveals the nuances of what attachment parenting actually is and how they are navigating its challenges while parenting their grown daughters.

Bio

Bethany Saltman is a literary agent, mother, wife, zen practitioner, and author of "Strange Situation: A Mother's Journey Into the Science of Attachment." She has an extensive background in writing, teaching, publishing, and devotes her time as a literary agent helping people put their stories into the world. She is a long-time friend of Kimberly's and a repeat podcast guest.

What She Shares:

–Different kinds of attachment and the adult attachment test

–Mothering through seasons

–Generational differences of parenting

–Navigating challenges of mothering adult children

What You'll Hear:

–Different types of attachment

–Securely attached is independent

–Develop through creativity and exploration with secure base

–Flexibility and response with parenting

–Behavior versus attachment

–Parameters for boundaries when discussing children publicly

–Posting children on social media

–Attachment research with adults

–Generational leaps around attachment and development

–Mothering through perimenopause

–Hormonal changes through mothering and phases

–Similarities between toddler and teenage years

–Experiencing the second half of life while mothering

–Values shifting through mothering phases

–Cultural differences around parenting young adults

–Leaving versus staying the nest

–Generational differences of survival wiring

–Frustrations of parenting adults

–Self-actualization leaving parents' house

–Adult attachment interview protocol

–Mixed feelings shows secure attachment in adulthood

–Importance of rupture and repair instead of only positive

–Spirituality, religion, and parenting

Resources

Website: https://www.bethanysaltman.com/

IG: @bethany_saltman

Class

Sign up for Jagamama Summer School here: https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/jagamama/

Summary

In this episode, Kimberly interviews her favorite podcast guest–her daughter Cece! Cece's last podcast episode was four years ago, so she shares her reflections around graduating highschool, her college application process, and her experiences as being Kimberly's daughter. She also turns the mic back to Kimberly to ask Kimberly her own reflections on life's various stages, single parenting, and what she wants her work to look like after Cece flies the nest.

Bio

Cece, Kimberly's daughter, is a 17 year old high school graduate and vocalist.

What She Shares:

–Cece's college application process

–Reflections on being Kimberly's daughter

–Decisions around college and major

–Cece interviews Kimberly

What You'll Hear:

–Graduating highschool

–How Cece feels being apart of Kimberly's "brand"

–Why Cece wants to go to college

–Highly academic highschool

–Where Cece will attend college

–Applying to various colleges

–Ranking safety schools, match schools, and reach schools

–Writing college application essays

–Cultural neuroses of applying to colleges

–Kimberly's experience of college applications

–Reflections on being an only child

–Wanting a sibling

–Being the focus as an only child

–Thoughts on being Kimberly's daughter

–How Cece feels leaving home

–Excited about moving to Scotland

–Navigating the current political climate

–Kimberly's reflections about being a maiden

–What Kimberly finds hard about single parenting

–What Kimberly would do differently as a parent

–Kimberly's favorite part of being Cece's mom

–How being Cece's mom informs Kimberly's work

–Parenting phases that Kimberly misses

–Kimberly's work as fringe and niche

–How Kimberly views her future work

–What it's like to be a teenager right now

–How Cece handles having a phone

–Cece's advice for other parents

–Cece's music update

–Cece's offers support for college application process

Resources

Email: [email protected]

IG: @ceciliajvieira

In this episode, Kimberly switches roles to be in the interviewee seat herself while Elisa asks and reflects about Kimberly's Mothering the Bones retreats. They just finished one retreat in Wales and reflect on how moving and transformative it was for the gathering to be holding one another. They also discuss the origins of Mothering the Bones–how Kimberly came to this work and why she feels it is the apex of all of her expertise, knowledge, and purpose.

Bio

Elisa Mary Haggarty is an Executive and Conscious Leadership Coach, host of The Soul Podcast, and fellow jaguar. She coaches leaders to become more aware of how they are operating and the impact of how they relate to those around them through Conscious Leadership. She also has a diverse background in somatics and holistics and nutritional wellness. She is based in NYC but serves globally.

What She Shares:

–Mothering the Bones origins

–Nuances of session work in community

–Non-traditional approaches to gathering

–Making space for spontaneous emergence

What You'll Hear:

–One week out from Mothering the Bones retreat

–Level of intimacy and vulnerability in Kimberly's work

–Why Kimberly does Mothering the Bones

–Kimberly's background in body work and nervous systems

–Session work in group

–Elise's experience at Ghost Ranch

–Lay practitioner defined

–Taking care of people, people of place, and the land

–Range of grief and joy

–Meta-level analysis not needed when sessions occur

–Tactile practice has emerged

–Next step beyond ROLFing and body-work

–Holding the pelvis and witnessing

–Decentralizing role of practitioner

–Importance of witness space as recipient

–Conscientiousness about care and support

–Not all trauma work is intense

–Allow the body to be in blue

–Distributing weight of session with multiple people

–Pairing experts with novices

–Witnessing a freeze

–Repairing with other women's presence

–Resourced to receive, give, and listen

–Burnout and unsustainability in community work

–Impossibility of birth work and community care in these times

–Value of midwives and second-generation births

–Upcoming book for Mothering the Bones work

–Touch, touching the pelvis non-sexually, sitting, consent

–Bringing whole self to bodywork

–Radical touch

–Listening, presence, story

–Value of artistry in trauma-work

–Non-traditional ways of learning

–Giving space for emerging creativity to come out

–Sexuality and birth require emergence and spontaneity

–Being responsive to group's needs

–Loosening control in community gatherings

–Art of embodiment

–Opportunities to be spontaneous and surprised

–Tending to place and land of retreats

–Depth and saturation of place

–Different approaches to in-person versus online

–Bodies that need held the most

–Bone holding practice for presence and healing

Resources

Website: https://www.elisamaryhaggarty.com/

IG: @elisamaryhaggarty

In this episode, Kimberly and Alex discuss his extensive background in working with children on the Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). He spent much of those years taking a non-traditional approach from just behavioral to prioritizing fun and community. This work led him to keenly understanding the importance of local agriculture, nutrition, and the gut-brain connection, and eventually he began working as an animal butcher and supporting his wife's work, The Wild Nutritionist. Aspects of their discussion are connected through the thread of the importance of holistic care for ASD individuals as well as local farming, nutrition, and the gut-brain connection.

Bio

Alex Johnson is a father, butcher, former autism specialist, husband of Kate Pope, The Wild Nutritionist, and long-term friend of Kimberly's. His background in theater studies, and then psychology, led him to working with children on the Autism Spectrum Disorder for over a decade. Understanding the needs of this population then helped him transition to regenerative agriculture and animal butchery.

What He Shares:

–Working with children on the Autism Spectrum Disorder

–How and why ASD has changed in recent years

–Harms and limitations of diagnoses and labels

–Transitioning to regenerative agriculture and butchery

–Prioritizing community through local farming

What You'll Hear:

–How Alex began working with kids

–Studied theater and psychology

–Role play and autism in 2010

–How insurance changed autism

–In home and in community teaching to kids with ASD

–Bringing families together with potlucks

–DSM-5 refining definition of ASD

–Disproportionately diagnosed in boys versus girls

–Severity ratings (1, 2, 3) of ASD

–Issues with self-diagnoses

–Performative vulnerability

–Challenges in diagnosing ASD

–Social, Communication, and Behavior

–Familial approaches to ASD and community

–Neurodivergence and ASD labels

–Limitations of checklists of diagnoses

–Gut issues and ASD

–Behavioral versus holistic and community care

–Regenerative agriculture, nutrition, and ASD

–Transitioning to animal butchery

–Small-scale, mobile harvest operation

–Mobile Harvest Truck

–Art of animal butchery and carrying traditions

–Politics and farming

–Community care in farming and rural areas

–Nutritional needs for families

–Getting kids involved in family nutrition

–Importance of local farmers markets

–Talking to local farmers

–Buying seasonal produce

–Harms of individual priorities versus community

–Returning to community care

Resources

Website: https://regenerativecookingschool.com/

IG: @wildnutrionist

In this episode, Kimberly and Kathryn discuss Kathryn's work in Jungian psychology, psychotherapy, embodiment, and body image. Kathryn walks us through her workbook which is designed to help women understand how much body image issues are distractions from feelings of anxiety and ambivalence about their lives. Instead, she describes how to create the capacity to unearth more deeply rooted thoughts, feelings, and sensations in our psyches and our bodies.

Bio

Kathryn Holt, PhD, LCSW, is a depth psychologist and writer. She completed her PhD in Jungian/Archetypal Studies at Pacifica Graduate Institute and has an extensive background in long-term psychotherapy, feminist psychoanalytic group therapy, community ritual, dance and movement practices, intentional psychedelic work, and more. Her latest workbook "Overcoming Body Hatred: A Woman's Guide to Healing Negative Body Image & Nurturing Self-Worth Using CBT & Depth Psychology" helps women identify their purpose, manage stress, change cultural messaging, and cultivate embodied presence.

What She Shares:

–Body preoccupation as a defense

–Cultural obsession with young and beauty

–Building capacity for ambivalence

–Fostering emotional intelligence for ourselves and others

–Approaches to our childrens' body image issues

What You'll Hear:

–Writing dissertation a baby during pandemic

–Publishing workbook from dissertation

–Why Kimberly avoided body image discussions

–Body preoccupation functioning as a defense

–Issue of projection onto women's bodies and suffering

–Locating conditioning as inherited

–Self-sensing our own bodies

–Self-objectification and projection

–What is under the fantasy of our ideal body image?

–Body image work puts us into reality

–Culture's obsession with youth

–Preparing for bodies changing and age

–Fantasy that bodies are fixed means problems are fixed

–Living with body dissatisfaction and preoccupation

–Parenting girls and young women around body image

–Listening, inhabiting, and growing with body changes

–Defensiveness of body image decreasing intimacy with self

–Distinguishing between thought versus physical sensation

–Foundational psychological work with body image

–Dialectical behavioral therapy and psycho-spiritual therapy

–Jungian and spiritual psychology

–Internal versus cultural

–Ending our delusions to be our full selves

–Increasing tolerance for anxiety to get underneath it

–Body ambivalence as inevitable

–Accepting ambivalence in all areas of life

–Inundated with images

–Defenses keep us from the solutions

–Fostering emotional intelligence for us and our children

Resources

Website: https://www.kathryncholt.com/

IG: @dr.kathryncholt