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Mary Katharine Ham is a journalist and political commentator who’s worked for both CNN and Fox. Her book End of Discussion: How the Left’s Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters, and Makes America Less Free (and Fun) came out in 2015 but basically predicts the next decade. A “natural contrarian,” Ham came to conservatism at a time when culture (and her Durham hometown) was dominated by liberals. It’s made her a rigorous and original thinker, clear-eyed and calm amid the political circus.

She talks with Nancy and Sarah about why Trump isn’t a conservative, how her faith helped her endure the death of her first husband, and how that experience shaped her perspective on Erika Kirk’s role since her husband Charlie’s assassination, when Ham found herself playing “widow defense.” We also talk the Trump-Mamdani summit, motherhood, and the utility of political commentary.

Also discussed:

* It’s good to have a weirdo in the room.

* Unintended lessons of a ‘90s public-school education

* MKH early inspiration: Rachel Campos-Duffy from The Real World

* “Politics is just not fun,” and yet…

* What is conservatism?

* What Obama and Trump have in common

* The Russiagate delusion

* Marjorie Taylor Greene folds

* The Tetris movie: Go, capitalism!

* “Charlie himself, as an example, was a bulwark against so many bad examples.”

* Admiration for George W’s post-presidential ride into the sunset

* The radical efficiency of freaking people out

* The hunger to find hypocrisy among people of faith

* A sunnier portrait of motherhood

* “God is good no matter what.”

* The necessary solace of Jeremiah 29:11

* Enthusiasm plus delusion is a very bad combination, and yes, we’re looking at you, Candace Owens

* Mary Katherine to Nancy: “Get lifting.”

* Sarah “resisted Apple TV for a heroic amount of time.”

Plus, Kelsea Ballerini wonders what she missed, the over-selling of freezing one’s eggs, Usha Vance gives good advice, and much more!

Thanksgiving is a day to be grateful. Perfect time to become a paid subscriber!

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Nancy and Sarah discuss political writer Olivia Nuzzi, who became the main character on Twitter this week when an excerpt from her new memoir, published in Vanity Fair, coincided with a bombshell story by ex-fiancee Ryan Lizza. The scandal included cameos by broadcaster Keith Olbermann, politician Mark Sanford, and Livvy, a pop-music persona Nuzzi created at 16.

Nuzzi is a talented journalist who’s appeared on this podcast. Last year, she lost her gig at New York magazine after news hit about an entanglement with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. This sordid new chapter created a feeding frenzy among (many less talented) journalists, but Sarah and Nancy try to push past the schadenfreude to understand how we got here: the little girl drawn to the spotlight, fluent in the double-speak of politicians, and the ambitious young woman who lost both parents by 30.

Also discussed:

* That time Patty Hearst and the SLA hid out in Disneyland

* The magic of the open road

* “I like messy people.”

* A political profile vs. a celebrity profile

* Rule #1: Don’t sleep with your sources.

* Rule #2: Do not look through your significant other’s stuff

* The Keith Olbermann of it all

* Vanity Fair and glamour of the 90s

* Remember that time a governor from New Jersey was caught having sex with a dude, and it became a whole giant scandal? Yeah, us neither

* More Monmouth Musings could use a better name …

* Livvy, the “morally bankrupt” and “undeniably infectious” pop tartlet

* The dirty-girl era of Ke$ha and Lady Gaga

* The exhibitionism of the iPhone

* Sarah will lay her chips on Nuzzi’s future

Plus, Sarah can see alcoholism in people’s eyes, Nancy reconnects with a former flame, a nearly unbelievable story about a 38-year-old unopened letter from Ken Kesey and much more!

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Nancy and Sarah discuss a viral essay from British Vogue, “Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing Now?” The free-wheeling conversation touches on dating changes over the generations, the different ways women tell stories about their relationships online, and how women over the past half century have tried to balance independence and attachment.

Also discussed:

* First Kurt Rambis reference, for those who celebrate

* Sarah gets her colors done, has hair problems

* We need a producer!

* Our email, for the record: [email protected]

* Please, we beg you, no more videotaped marriage proposals

* On men traveling alone: “Who did that guy kill?”

* Influencer culture and the egg-freeze flex

* Was the world built for “men’s comfort”?

* Do men want to be protectors? Do women want them to be? A debate!

* Having a boyfriend is… Republican?

* Might we have a moratorium on quotes from content providers living in Dimes Square?

* “I just want a spinach salad…”

* The Hulu show that almost broke up your podcasters

Plus, a flashback to an early 20th century Edith Wharton banger, the glory that is Sebastian Junger, and much more!

The rich jewel box colors of fall will be yours when you become a paid subscriber

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Mike Pesca, host of the longtime daily news podcast “The Gist,” joins Nancy and Sarah to talk about sports betting scandal that threatens to destroy an entire industry. Marked cards, special contact lenses, the mafia: This is deep Scorsese territory. Sarah is so checked out on sports she didn’t know Pete Rose was dead, but she has questions about how betting went from taboo to industry goldmine. Pesca is Smoke’s resident “voice of men,” whether he likes it or not, so we also talk about his take on the Great Feminization (last week’s pod controversy) and women taking testoserone to boost their sex drive.

Don’t miss the backstage drama on Pesca’s podcast interview with former White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre. He’s done thousands of celebrity interviews, and only spiked a few. This was one of them.

Also discussed:

* A burning UTI of a question!

* Over-under and point spread, discussed

* Eight Men Out, a good movie

* When the mafia ruled porn …

* Three cheers for the red, white and corrupt

* Theo Von, Louis CK, Chris Rock, greatest sex addicts anonymous group ever?

* Longing for a “she-pee” that plays “I Will Survive” by Gloria Gaynor

* Norm MacDonald, poster child for gambling addiction

* But what is addiction?

* Mike suggests Karine Jean-Pierre should have called her book Incoherent

* Sarah’s parents were Cuomo-sexuals

* Nancy tries to explain “boofing”

* A tone-deaf article about harm reduction

* Women, sex drive, and Nancy’s testosterone levels

* Andrew Cuomo: “I’m not perverted. I’m Italian.”

* “Get me off the Lady Testosterone ride!”

* Ozempic kills the urge to gamble

* Pesca’s wife has complaints

* Sarah’s Ethnic Stereotypes Corner!

Plus, Sarah reconsiders One Battle After Another, Nancy’s erotic gym-class epiphany, Mike explains how to read marked cards, and much more!

REMINDER: First Sunday this Sunday! Come one, come all, link sent out day-out. 8pm ET/5pm PT.

Nancy’s birthday is October 30, and a girl likes presents. You know what to do …

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Nancy and Sarah talk about “The Great Feminization,” a Compact essay that’s stirred the hornet’s nest of social media. The recent story, by Helen Andrews, argues that many recent cultural shifts — cancel culture, wokeness, safetyism — can be explained by the influence of women, who tend to prioritize empathy over rationality and cohesion over competition. Is it true? Is it offensive? Let’s discuss!

Also discussed:

* Compliment sandwiches

* Twelve-year-old Nancy gets piled on by the older girls at camp

* Dreamy Argentinian boys causing trouble

* Spilling to a journalist = tattling to the teacher?

* “Math is hard”

* Male bosses versus female bosses

* Mean-girl behavior

* “I think” versus “I feel”

* Am I allowed to get an orange soda?

* Nancy equates cancel culture with communism; Sarah says, WTF?

* No adults in the room

* What is a “meta-textual performance? Is it a puppet show?

* “Misogynist howlers”

Plus, a true-crime documentary that exposes surveillance culture, Nancy on the chef whose recipes actually work — and more!

Thank you to Andrew Wimsatt, who snatched our video from the jaws of defeat. It’s one battle after another with technology around here! As penance for being later than we’d like, please accept an image of the homemade lasagna Nancy is making, more on that in the hot box

It’s a chunky lasagna of a time when you become a paid subscriber.

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Nancy and Sarah discuss a leaked Telegram group chat among Young Republicans with at least 251 slurs. Is it bad? Yes. Is it THAT bad? Let’s discuss, but let’s also ask the question: Does anyone care about privacy anymore?

A conversation about gossip, the contagious nature of bullying, when we expect people to grow up, and how foul-mouthed dirty-minded men navigate the guilt that comes with maturity and fatherhood.

Also discussed:

* Do frogs really fall from the sky? Yes, yes they do

* New boy band: The Vinces

* New York City mayoral debate: Let’s debate!

* Is “melting pot” racist?

* Sarah of Liberty: Bring us your poor, your weak … your hot?

* New Yorkers = scrappers

* Nancy apologizes to Finland

* “I’m a little horny today.”

* The dry humping of virtual connection

* The kid-ults of Brooklyn

* 1488 vs. 666

* The moral argument for leaking Jennifer Lawrence’s nude photos?

* Nancy’s possibly offensive observation about the Young Republicans

* In the UK, the word for cigarette is … ?

* “A big tamale of understanding”

* Before Nancy dated Eddie Vedder, she hung out with Laurence Fishburne?

* Yes you need to re-read Days of Rage

* POTP! Trademark it now.

Plus, JD Vance still has a lot of hillbilly in him, when Sarah started taking naughty selfies, Nancy sings Alicia Keys — and much more!

Take a bite of our big tamale of understanding. Become a paid subscriber.

Because Philip Michael Thomas’s name came up, let’s revisit a glorious TV opening:

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Nancy and Sarah talk Portland, where Nancy just returned from her forever-beat. The city of Portland is not on fire. What it is, instead, is a reminder of 2020’s worst political violence, and Nancy and Sarah talk about how it’s changed, and who wants that old feeling back.

Then we discuss One Battle After Another, one of the most talked-about movies of 2025. It’s Big Lebowski meets political thriller meets father-daughter saga, and our PTA stan (Sarah) faces off against our normie moviegoer (Nancy), but you might be surprised who loved the movie more.

P.S. Sarah is in a battle with the sun and blinds throughout this episode. We did what we could.

Also discussed:

* Trump administration wants to re-litigate 2020 so bad

* Days of Rage is Sarah’s lullaby

* But what IS antifa?

* Nancy met a Groyper!

* “Why can’t I have a goat and smoke pot?”

* Tragic moments in self-own: Palisades fire starter was a climate activist

* Charlie Kirk followers practice … civil disobedience?

* How Sarah fell in love with Magnolia

* Paul Thomas Anderson is Sarah’s guy

* “Ocean waves, Bob.”

* Sarah’s Mount Rushmore of actors: DiCaprio, Rockwell, Hoffman, Washington

* “You can’t make a life and take a life at the same time.”

* The character of Perfidia and The Power of the Pussy

* Any Pynchon readers around here? Anyone?

* Sean Penn is a caricature: good or bad thing?

* To Chase Infiniti and beyond!

* “Semen demon”

* Owen Glieberman’s OBAA review: We have notes

* Christmas Adventurers’ Club

* Santa is not a white supremacist

* Diane Keaton, style icon

* Diane Keaton never condemned Woody Allen

* This week’s hot boxes are spooky in different ways

Plus, John C. Reilly will always have a place in Sarah’s heart, Daniel Day-Lewis would be too scary to talk to, Diane Keaton wore life like a loose garment, and much more!

Your paid subscription buys Nancy more protective gear!

How it started:

How it’s going:

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Nancy and Sarah talk about a lightning-rod conversation between NYT podcaster Ezra Klein and award-winning writer Ta-Nehisi Coates. The two men spar on the political project of Charlie Kirk and the problem with / way forward for Democrats, and pretty much every side of the audience gets ticked off.

Nancy was underwhelmed with the conversation; Sarah was reminded of private arguments she’s had and sees more common ground between Coates and Kirk than either might like to believe.

Also discussed:

* Sarah is done with echo chambers

* Coates: “I think Charlie Kirk was a hatemonger” mmmmkay

* The animating fuel of hate is bipartisan

* The world could use another James Baldwin

* Cue Rodney King: Can’t we all just get along?

* Buckley-Vidal cage match!

* Behold the sound of Sarah’s Diet Pepsi

* We are caught between real life and floating in the cloud

* America, a country of spoiled children?

* The ‘80s comic novel that wins every season

* Sarah vs. her ring light

* Nancy’s mantra: “I disagree with you. Let’s have dinner.”

* Does Sarah look like Nicole Kidman? Her parents think so.

* Pro/con: Keith Urban’s hair

* Baby Girl as overcompensation

* That time Nancy met Nicole Kidman and became the first journalist to learn Kidman and Tom Cruise were getting divorced

* Farts, snores: Human embarrassment, discussed

* Is Portland a war zone? Nancy reports.

* Wet panties are not a political endorsement!

Plus, love for Neil Armstrong and his son, Nancy and her daughter crush on a portly CIA director, and why America has many many stories.

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Welcome to episode #2 of The Sociopaths Among Us. If you haven’t listened to the disclaimer at the opening, go ahead and do that.

I’ve been wanting to write about Candace Owens since 2019, when I engaged in a very short interview with her backstage at a political event. Was she charming and poised? Yes. Also, I’d never in all my years of reporting (or, heck, living) had someone suss me up so intensely and with such speed, deciding in an instant whether to trust or not trust me, and to deflect whatever might need to be deflected.

I didn’t write about Owens then, but I kept tabs on her. I wasn’t interested in the content she was promoting; I don’t believe Owens believes in anything other than whatever will advance Candace Owens. But she was the most masterful opportunist I’d encountered (such as it is), able to hone in immediately on what was hot in the culture, to shove her way into that patch of sun and consume its energy before moving on. This “get in, get what you need, get out” is a classic hallmark of the sociopath — their marriages, business partnerships, friendships do not last long — as is the lack of conscience.

It’s hard to know why Owens is so successful, and then again, it’s not. People crave conspiracy theories, and boy howdy has she been doling them out to her 5 million+ YouTube fans. I started on this series only two weeks ago, and since then, she has doubled-down on Brigitte Macron being a man, made a post-assassination claim that Charlie Kirk changed his mind on Israel, indulged the idea of a trap door in the floor where Kirk was killed and where the shooter might have taken aim, and suggested the murder of the Turning Point USA founder was an inside job. I said in the audio that by the time this posts, she will have floated another theory. Sure enough.

Do smart people wonder why she continues to do as she does?

I don’t wonder. Owens needs our attention like a fish needs water, and by water I mean tragedy or controversy or star-shine, and if she perceives a lack of these or, heck, if she’s just bored, she’ll invent some. There are many wounds in the culture right now, wounds into which Owens can insert herself, something she’s been doing since she came onto the scene: she’s been the girl boss, the anti-doxxer (by way of doxxing; details after the paywall), anti-GOP then pro-Trump, decrier of victim culture except when it serves her to play victim. She is someone who makes an eight-part series about the president of France’s wife having a penis. (What?!) This might all be seen as lunacy, easy to ignore, a flesh-and-blood version of The World Weekly News…

… but for the fact that she is feeding on real people’s tragedies: Kirk’s assassination, the slaughter in Israel on October 7. She is vampiric, and while it’s awful to see, can you imagine how tragic it is to be Owens? What must be going on inside of her that she makes these outlandish and cruel statements and, under the guise of “just asking questions,” demands people disprove them?

The charitable among us might say, “Just ignore her.” But this woman will not be ignored. She will claw her way to staying relevant, day after day, and thanks to our overheated media environment, people you consider smart sometimes lend credence to her theorizing. Have I mentioned the screenshot of the Fifth Column boys as Megyn Kelly pondered whether some of Owens’ theories might be true?

It would be a fool’s errand to predict what Owens will say next. But I can tell you some of her origin story and how she got where she did ...

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Nancy and Sarah speak with Meghan Daum, the podcaster behind The Unspeakable and author of a great new collection of essays, The Catastrophe Hour. They talk about writing, Charlie Kirk, young people casting around for meaning, and a very eye-raising report in the New York Times about a recent blockbuster memoir about MDMA-assisted recovered memories of violent sexual assault. It raises some questions!

Will this be a tipping point for the publishing industry? We discuss integrity, celebrity, Oprah Winfrey, the challenge of selling books, and how to fact-check memories in the first place.

Also discussed:

* Tylenol: Latest tool of the Resistance

* Are Reddit posts the new sad girl diaries?

* That time Meghan observed Turning Point gatherings …

* The return of Alex P. Keaton!

* Books usually don’t have fact-checkers

* Sarah’s hard lessons when editing personal essays

* Incoherence, the theme of our time

* Fabulists in the memoir genre like moths to a flame

* Toot’n Totum!

* “Nancy is Marie Antoinette.”

* The 90s are back, and if you invite us to your party, we will totally stand around the kitchen smoking clove cigarettes

* “Monchhichi, monchhichi, oh so soft and cuddly”

* The truth vs. my truth

* How is Meghan’s new book like a handgun?

* Paul Newman used French eye drops?

* NYT reader comments FTW

Plus, the John Brown Gun Club, a tragic story of literary shame, more Robert Reford love, and much more!