Matthew Vines has spent many years making the case that Christians can and should embrace same-sex marriage — his book God and the Gay Christian helped a generation of people reconcile their faith and sexuality. So when he recently distanced himself from queer theology, first in a conversation on the Uncommon Ground podcast and then in a New York Times piece titled "I'm Gay, Not Queer. It Matters," it set off a firestorm.

Karl Hand — pastor at Crave Church (Metropolitan Community Church), theologian, and longtime friend of the show — joins Will to sit inside the mess of it. This is a conversation that tries to hold two things at once: real, substantive pushback on where Matthew's argument goes wrong, and real gratitude for what his earlier work made possible. Along the way, Karl untangles what "queer" actually means across identity, activism, and theory, three things Karl argues Matthew's article quietly collapses into one.

A note before you press play: this conversation touches on trauma connected to church rejection, queerphobia, and sexual ethics. Take care of yourself, and feel entirely free to skip this one if it's not what you need right now.

The Matthew Vines NYT article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/30/opinion/queer-gay-rights.html

Books Karl references:

Butler, Judith (1990).  Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity. New York: Routledge.

Rubin, Gayle (1984). "Thinking Sex: Notes for a Radical Theory of the Politics of Sexuality." In Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality. Boston: Routledge.

Halperin, David M. (1995) Saint Foucault: Towards a gay hagiography. Oxford University Press.

Matthew Vines quoted Halperin without providing broader context. Here are those quotes in their original context:

“Queer is by definition whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant. There is nothing in particular which it necessarily refers. It is an identity without an essence. "Queer," then, demarcates not a positivity but a positionality vis-a-vis the normative—a positionality that is not restricted to lesbians and gay men but is in fact available to anyone who is or who feels marginalized because of her or his sexual practices: it could include some married couples without children, for example, or even (who knows?) some married couples with children—with, perhaps, very naughty children.” p. 62

“Perhaps I should say that I don't intend this argument to be understood as advocating the adoption of the term "queer" in preference to the term "gay" or as providing partisan support for the politics of Queer Nation. First of all, it is not for me to suggest what words the members of sexual constituencies should use to designate or identify themselves. Second, the only thing that need be said about Queer Nation in this context is that it is significantly less queer, in the sense in which I am using the term, than, say, ACT UP, whose style of direct-action politics and activist glamor Queer Nation has attempted to replicate for the purpose of creating a movement of young lesbian and gay radicals defined by no other issue than that of sexual orientation.” p. 63

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Today is a replay of one of the most listened-to Spiritual Misfits episodes of all time — not because of a spike when it dropped, but because people just keep coming back to it. Every week, someone finds this conversation and sends it to a friend, or stumbles across it scrolling back through the feed.

Becca, Caro and Will discuss the question: for those of us who grew up in evangelical Christian households, how are we raising our kids today?

Even if that's not your exact story — not everyone grew up evangelical, not everyone has kids — there's something about reflecting on inheritance: what we keep, what we leave behind, and why it matters to think carefully about both.

This episode is three years old, which means we're all in slightly different places than we were then. We're planning to revisit this topic in an upcoming episode — and before we do, we'd love to hear from you. Got a question or a story about how parenting and faith has shifted for you over time? Email [email protected].

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When people ask Jessica Morthorpe what gives her hope, she gets a little wary. Sometimes it feels like they're really asking for permission to stop worrying — to feel better so they don't have to act. And that's why hope is complicated. Offered too cheaply, it becomes a sedative.

In this episode, Will and Caro speak with Jess — founder of the Five Leaf Eco Awards — about sitting honestly in that tension. How can we nurture hope that grows through participation, community and action?

Along the way the three explore why caring for creation was never a fringe issue, how a community garden can become a place that literally saves lives, sitting with climate grief without rushing past it, and the ancient gifts the church has been carrying all along — that might be exactly what an anxious and lonely world needs now.

Connect with more of Jessica's work at:
https://fiveleafecoawards.org/  https://climatepastoralcare.thinkific.com/

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Carolyn Meers guides us through a winter reflection on the healing power of slowing down. Where ever you find yourself when you hit 'play' this is a kind and gentle invitation to move differently through whatever activities this day may hold, drawing on an ancient prayer from St Aidan of Lindisfarne, alongside some poetry by Mary Oliver.

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Pearl is a queer pastor with a PhD in history. Rev Kev is a former missionary who now sometimes identifies as an atheist pastor. Together, they are forming a new church community in Maitland — with misfits front of mind. Will is joined by Pearl and Kev in Mitch Forbes' office, where the four of them have a conversation about queering the bible, exploring negative/apophatic theology and how these approaches might translate into the formation of a new church.

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Are apologists grifters? What happened to all the New Atheists? Can progressives Christians present a more compelling vision of faith that still has some backbone?

Mitch and Will get into a free-ranging pub theology conversation that somehow ends up exactly where it needs to — thinking about what it looks like to communicate a more beautiful, more honest vision of Christianity for the times we live in.

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Is violence ever justified? Are there wars Christians should support? If so, what would the conditions need to be? If not, why not?

In this episode Will and Caro are joined by friend of the pod Becca De Souza and Micah Hurst, pastor at Ashfield Baptist Church, to explore four historic Christian frameworks for thinking about war: from crusades and preventative war through just war theory, biblical nonresistance, and Christian pacifism. Along the way they wrestle with the gap between personal conviction and national policy, what nonviolence actually looks like in practice, and whether a world of mutually assured blessing is possible, instead of the current state of play.

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What is spiritual direction — and could it be what your soul has been looking for?

In this episode, Caro sits down with three trained spiritual directors — Sally Jones, Peter Ellem, and Kym Dixon — for a warm, honest conversation about the ancient practice of spiritual accompaniment. Together they explore what spiritual direction actually is (and isn't), how it differs from therapy or pastoral care, why people seek it out, and what it can offer people navigating faith transitions, religious trauma, or simply a longing for something more. All guests share from their own experience — both as directors and as people who have been directed — and the conversation is rich with hard-won wisdom about the spiritual life.

If you've ever felt like you needed a gentle place to land, this one's for you.

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Will has a new collection of poetry out in the world — 'The Fossil of Us' — and Caro interviews him about the themes it explores. Along the way they discuss grief, masculinity, faith and what it means to be human, with Will reading a few poems as they go.

Get the book here in Australia or on Amazon for international orders.

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What do you do with your faith after crisis — when the casseroles have stopped coming, people have moved on, and you're left in a strange in-between space between who you were and who you are becoming?

Adriel Booker is an author, writer and dual Australian-American citizen whose latest book, Tethered to Hope, grew out of exactly that kind of liminal season — a succession of pregnancy losses, a move from Sydney to South Australia, leaving full-time ministry after 22 years, and a dark night of the soul she wrote through rather than out of. 

In this conversation, Caro and Will sit down with Adriel to explore what it means to be held when you can't feel it, why the shift from believing to beloving matters more than we think, and how we learn to inhabit our bodies and our faith when both feel unfamiliar.

Note: Will needed to (reluctantly!) leave part-way through this interview, in case you notice his absence towards the end. 

Tethered to Hope is available wherever you buy books. 

Find Adriel at adrielbooker.com.

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