Sustainable Winegrowing

The three pillars of regenerative farming are soil health, animal welfare, and social wellness. This podcast brings together interviews with two farmers who are exploring regenerative agriculture practices: Caine Thompson, Managing Director at Robert Hall Winery and Sustainability Lead at O'Neill Vintners and Distillers plus Clint Nelson, Director of Vineyard Operations and Grower Relations at Bonterra Organic Estates.

Caine and Clint explore the challenges and benefits of going nearly no-till from under vine weed cultivation to using rubber skids to reduce compaction to improve soil health. They also share the many benefits of our favorite living lawnmowers, sheep. Not only do these animals aid with weed management and fertilization, but they are also critical to fire suppression.

Listen in to hear both their experienced farmer's advice on how to bring more regenerative practices into your operation.

Resources:

• REGISTER | Investigating Regenerative Practices in a Production Vineyard | June 16, 2023
• 92: Regenerative Agriculture
• 107: How Grazing Sheep Can Benefit Your Vineyard
• 114: Designing a Vineyard for Year-Round Sheep Grazing
• 163: Onsite Compost Production Using Vineyard Waste
• Bonterra
• Bonterra Estate Cabernet Sauvignon 2021
• Bonterra Estate Chardonnay 2021
• Caine Thompson's LinkedIn Profile
• Caine Thompson interviews biodynamic consultant Philippe Armenier (26-minute YouTube video)
• ROA Website
• Sustainability Initiatives at O'Neill Vintners and Distillers

References: Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

Caine Thompson 0:00

Our guest today is Clint Nelson. He's director of vineyard operations and grower relations for Bonterra organic estates. And we're gonna talk about regenerative organic agriculture today, and the certificate, the rock, the ROC. Thanks for being on the show, Clint.

Clint Nelson 0:12

Hey, Greg, happy to be here. Looking forward to talking some organics with you.

Caine Thompson 0:16

Here with me today is Caine Thompson. He is managing director Robert Hall Winery and sustainability lead. With O'Neill, vintners and distillers. Welcome to the podcast. Caine.

Thank you. Great to be here.

Let's just start with some basics. What is regenerative organic agriculture?

Clint Nelson 0:33

Great question. I would say it's very similar to our traditional CCOF certificate or the organic certificate that we we now consider our stay. But the one of the biggest differences between going from traditional organics to regenerative organics is a few changes in animal welfare. So we're looking out for the animals that were hurding and grazing on our vineyards. And that's one of the pillars in the certificate. In addition to that, there's a social equity component, where we're looking at the well being of not just our internal employees and how they're treated and making sure that they have fair compensation for the work and also a nice work life balance, but also the region as a whole or the community as a whole, I should say and how our farming operations are impacting the area that we work with. That's really the additions to this certificate program compared to CCOF from a pillar aspect like something that's new, different. When you look at the farming side of this certificate program compared to traditional organic certificates, the biggest change or one of the most drastic changes depending on your farming techniques, is going from tillage to non till and looking at soil health, and doing infield soil tests to check the porosity or the drainage or the organic matter and things like that. And so that can be a challenge for a lot of traditional farmers that are used to tilling either every row or every other row for weed management or irrigation, conservation and their ideas. But for us, it's something that we've we've taken on and we're excited about what we're seeing anecdotally increases and things like organic matter and overall soil health. And also reduction in cover cropping. You know, once you go from tilling to non till your seed can start to reseed itself. And so you have less passes and your cover crop applications and, and all kinds of neat benefits that we're happy to take advantage of.

Craig Macmillan 0:35

So no till I talked to people all the time about this is a very important topic. And when I talk to the scientists, they're like, man, do not till your setting to set the system back to zero, you're feeding microbes that are there, and then they die because there's so much oxygen, etc, you're losing your carbon, because they're consuming it, all that kind of stuff. And so then I talked to growers that are, you know, believe in this. And then like, yeah, we're no till. And then we have a conversation. And I say, how do you handle things like squirrel burrows and gopher holes and things that are uneven because it's hard on the tractors and the drivers, and they say, Oh, we do it again, every five years, we'll till it again and replant every five years, or whenever we kind of need to do it. Now for you folks, it sounds like you're making a pretty intense commitment to the long term. When you think no till are you thinking like forever and a day or are there times when you might reset the system? And if so, how are you going to do it?

Clint Nelson 3:28

Yeah, I think for looking at this strictly from our certificate perspective, there are times when you're allowed to go back in and do quote unquote, maintenance of your soils. And for me, my biggest concern from transitioning from tilling to not is compaction, you know, compaction can start to limit your ability for water infiltration. And then your roots start to suffer and find declines sets in. We haven't seen that yet and my experience in management and directing the vineyard operations. I've rarely seen compaction be an issue. And so we're not doing maintenance tilling to alleviate compaction. One of the keys to that though, is we're transitioning a lot of our wheeled tractors, to rubber skids are rubber tracks, and so we're alleviating the pressure within the vineyard. And in addition to that, we just avoid all operations when the soils are moist or wet because you can get major running and things along those lines which then necessitate a grading pass just to make it smooth for tractor operations. Once again, if it's wet and rainy, we stay out of it. One added benefit. Craig, you might find of interest. This past season, we've had a lot of flooding up here in Mendocino with the rains, we had something almost like 30 inches within six week period and the rest of the river came up and over to some of the vineyard properties which is normal in a wet year. But being that we are non till we were actually able to get tractor operations back into the vineyards much earlier than anybody else that had been tilling prior to the rain events, because we had that soil integrity and also vegetative biomass there holding the soils together. And so we were out there pruning and flailing without creating any ruts or divots much earlier than anybody else around us.

Caine Thompson 5:19

So when I talked about no till many of them say, oh, yeah, this is a no till system. And then later on, they say, well, every 5, 6, 7, 8 years, we do go in and reset it, get it nice and clean and flat. And then we resed and we go from there, that our time horizon, that you would expect that you may actually go in and till again and reset the system. Either they're sustainable, or ROA system?

There could be. And there's a number of documented studies that have shown that the occasional use of tilling is required and the framework within ROA doesn't necessarily eliminate tillage it does at the Gold level. If you're like a Gold Certified regenerative farm, you've got to be 0 0 till there is the ability to till and divine row for weed control for certain practices in the ROA guidelines, you can still till there's different percentages of areas that you can till based on bronze, silver gold areas, when we do or need to teill, again, we wouldn't in the mid row, we wouldn't do every row would likely do every other row when we need it. So we'll use it as a as a selective tool, kind of like in sustainable conventional systems where there's a patch of weeds where you're not spraying the whole vineyard, but you've targeted application of herbicide to tackle a particular patch of weeds. Same with them the regenerative system and can see the use of selective tilling as a tool to control weeds in particular areas or an area of compaction that you need to work. And so the frameworks great in regards to working with growers for what is needed for their specific vineyards, while having a plan to minimize tillage in the long term.

As with a lot of things, you have a tool and may say, Well, I could reduce the use of this tool in a knowledgeable way. But it doesn't mean I'm gonna throw it away. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say never. And it's interesting that you still have it in the toolbox. That's interesting.

Overarching, with tillage, we would love to just not till it all intelligence, time consuming, it's expensive, makes difficult for gear equipment to go back on the Vinyard. When we get them, the winds and paths are you can see that erosion happening. When you till you're like putting a plow chisel through the vineyard of these ecosystems that's just kind of destroying what's what's there. So it's, we're not wanting to use it, we're wanting to build and regenerate soil that having it as a tool, if we need it at some point, it's beneficial.

What about inro weed control using a weed knife or flame or steam or something like that?

Clint Nelson 8:03

All the above. It really depends on the weed species. You know, we have some areas where I have Bermuda grass, it is almost impossible to tame. And sometimes it necessitates a hand pass, but when it's just your traditional mares tail or thistle or what have you, we like to run under vine cutivators. So to say that we're, we're not 100% non till because we're tilling underneath that find spaces for weed management. We're about say anywhere between 80 to 90% non till and we also like to till right under the vine because of a lot of our fertilizers have transitioned away from fertigation and we're actually banding pellets out there.

Caine Thompson 8:45

Oh really?

Clint Nelson 8:46

Yeah, yeah, it's been quite effective actually. And we're getting a cost effective boost in our nitrogen phosphorus and potassium compared to organic drip fertilizers which can be somewhat costly with very low horsepower behind them you know your NPK is pretty low on this organic injectable fertilizers. But when we can go after we banned on and this is a banding application after we ban on those pellets, we can incorporate them a little bit quicker by running our under vine so we get a two for one pass. We get weed management and also quicker incorporation of fertilizer pellets.

Caine Thompson 9:22

What about weed control? You mentioned on the swings abandoned herbicides in the sustainable area. How do you manage weeds in the ROA section?

In any type of conversion, whether it's to organics biodynamics regenerative farming, it seems to be we've controls one of the largest barriers to entry and how to do that in an economical way. And so, the main way we're controlling weeds under vine and the regenerative side is under vine cultivation just within the vine row. So just under vines, in the wintertime we have what's called like mounting up so we're turning this Soil just inside the vine row on top of uer vine row. And then that starts to break down through the season. And then we use a Clemens blade just with a little sensor arm to undercut the vines.

What's your stocking density like?

Clint Nelson 10:17

It's about 20, head of sheep per acre. And we keep them in a region or zone set of blocks for about a week. And then after that, we'll we'll move them on to another region of the vineyard. And they'll stay there for about a week. And so we do this rotation through all our vineyard blocks,

Caine Thompson 10:35

Five to seven days. Okay, well, that's good. So are you doing the shepherding in house?

Clint Nelson 10:40

Unfortunately, or fortunately, we don't have the bandwidth for that. And that I'll be the first to admit I'm not a experienced sheep herder. And so there's quite a lot of work that goes into it. We have a very close relationship with a sheep herder up here that we've been working with since the dawn of us bringing sheep and they get to take care of that for us.

Caine Thompson 10:59

And you're letting them go. But like December to March, something like that?

Clint Nelson 11:02

More like mid January to just before budbreak. So like the end of March. Yeah, your timeline is pretty close.

Caine Thompson 11:09

And again, obviously, there's no incorporation of any of this. So it's getting in there on its own, which it'd be nature to lay anyway. Right?

Clint Nelson 11:15

You'd be surprised about the incorporation aspect. Yeah, the sheep are really good about incorporating all the sheep. You'll see hoofprints throughout the entire vineyard.

Caine Thompson 11:23

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's where I was gonna. Yeah, see you next, are there any other animals in the system?

Clint Nelson 11:31

We actually internally have a couple cattle, just a few. And that's more for our biodynamic reparations. So we keep them around for the compost and manure horns. But they also graze, not so much in the vineyard. We keep them adjacent in the vineyards to help with fire suppression. So they keep the weeds down for us.

Craig Macmillan 11:49

Very, very cool.

Clint Nelson 11:50

And actually, as we transition into budbreak, and we start to move the sheep out, we start to put them in the wild lands around the vineyards as well, that will fire suppression.

Caine Thompson 11:58

Oh, okay. So how long total? Are they on the property?

Clint Nelson 12:02

About six months.

Caine Thompson 12:03

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that's a long time.

Clint Nelson 12:05

Well, we we have quite a lot of acres that aren't vineyards here. So fire suppression is critical as the you know, California likes to burn. So we tried to do our part to keep it down.

Caine Thompson 12:15

Yeah, I know, a vineyard winery that everybody focuses on the fact that they have the sheep they talk about in the vineyard, and then the shepherd is part of the meeting. And he's like, Yeah, but this is probably the biggest benefit to us is the little fire suppression. They're doing that for the rest of the year. And I was like, gosh, that's really cool. That's really smart.

Clint Nelson 12:31

Exactly. I was gonna say taking this another higher level from a viewpoint. It can help with your insurance deductibles, too, if you can prove that you have sheep out there grazing and and removing the fire fuel pressures. Yeah.

Caine Thompson 12:45

You mentioned the welfare of the sheep, are there in particular things that you do, or the shepherds do that are focused on animal welfare?

Clint Nelson 12:54

Yeah, I think it comes down to auditing their practices and making sure that they're humanely treated and not overgrazed, like too many sheep in one area or anything like that. And they're, they're well fed and just taken care of properly, there's actually a whole list online of the things that we need.

Caine Thompson 13:11

Now let's transition over to animals, because animals is a big part of the ROA. And they're gaining popularity, but I'm curious about how you folks use animals for animals to use.

Yeah, so I'm originally from New Zealand. So I've a long history with sheep and using sheep within vineyards. And I just love them as a tool for incorporating into the vineyard system and they bring it just another level of energy into the property number one. Number two, they come in like these living lawnmowers that move with between your vines between your rows, they are consuming grass, that weeds, leaf falling off the vine, and they're consuming all of that and then you're gonna manures going back into the system, their hooves are also spreading their weight across across the ground as well. So there's a bit of aeration that the helping provide as well comparatively to large tractors that are giving us the compaction in the mid row as well. Really, that nutrient recycling is really valuable and the weed control it's a great way to you talked about it earlier, resetting weed control at the tail end of the season, bringing the sheep in to really chew down all of the weeds and grass within the system to back to like a base level at the start of the next season. It makes it easier to go in and start your under vine tillage program. So we're using sheep early season, our fruiting wire within the vineyard with a trial setup is set pretty, pretty high. And so the sheep can easily walk underneath the vine rows. And that allows us even even maneuverability of them through the vineyard. And so we find we get good control of weeds with them. It also allows us to extend the use of sheep within the vineyard and both ends of the season because the fruiting wire is way above the heads. So there's no risk of chewing off little young shoots in the early spring.

Craig Macmillan 15:16

So this is post budbreak?

Caine Thompson 15:18

Yeah, so we're putting them in post pruning through to post budbreak, we have noticed that if you leave them too long, and there's not enough grass, they will start trying to climb up the canopy in into the veins. And so there is a limit to how long you can leave them. And then you've got to ensure that there's not too many animals per acre grazing, otherwise, you're going to strip out the food system, and then they're going to be forced to go up into the canopy, which you don't want.

Craig Macmillan 15:50

And you said, there's two times the second one in the fall like after harvest?

Caine Thompson 15:54

Yeah, as soon as the fruits of the sheep come back in, and we really like that as a way of again, cleaning up the understory, then all these leaves from the canopy falling down into the vineayrd floor. And so the sheep are consuming them turning them into nutrients and and putting it back into the soil versus that leaf just usually blowing away somewhere else. Yeah, just running down eventually, by by itself, that's just a faster way of getting nutrient recycling happening and back into the soil. So they're a great tool, there's a local shepherd that we're using that brings in sheep for us, we haven't got our own herd at the moment.

Craig Macmillan 16:35

Is there one piece of advice that are one thing you would tell growers on this topic that you really encourage them to do or encourage them to think about?

Clint Nelson 16:43

I would say when it comes to regenerative organic farming, don't be scared of going non till it's not the boogeyman in the closet by any means. I've been doing it successfully for over six years hands on direct management, and haven't had any issues. And in fact, we're seeing great benefits and duction, one of our blocks this past year had a record setting crop being on non-till system. And then in addition to that, we're seeing these jumps in organic matter and, and the ability to get in in farm earlier than other people. I would say there's a reason where we made this jump. We're excited about it. And I hope that I can kind of spread the word for everybody out there and get more people are excited about.

Craig Macmillan 17:25

Is there one thing that you would tell grower related to this topic that might help them what message do you want to have somebody take away?

Caine Thompson 17:33

I would say just make a start on even if it's a few rows and remove herbicides, number one, and look at alternatives for your agrichemical program. Sulfur has been used for powdery mildew control for hundreds of years, it's very, very effective. And look at the tools that can replace slowly some of the products that you might not want to use around your farm and around your household data, more organic solutions and get your learnings yourself. You don't need to do your whole vineyard right out of the gate. But just start small and get the learnings and if there's a desire you, you learn pretty quick and then expand from that.

Craig Macmillan 18:17

That is a great message and one that I encourage everybody to hear. Try things out. You don't have to put everything on 17 Black, try a little bit, see how it goes. And that's a great way to control cause and the other thing is site specific. Right? That's always the thing. Well, it's all site specific. Well, yeah, it is all site specific. And therefore you need to try it on your site.

Caine Thompson 18:37

Yeah, we started trailers of 48 acre trail. And after year, two, now, we've expanded into 130 acres, but we got the learnings over a two year period to give us the confidence to expand into the rest of the estate.

Clint Nelson 18:53

One more thing I used to work in in research and outreach. And this was back in time when I help with best practices on irrigation techniques, or best practices in pruning management, things like that. And when talking with growers, I would just say ask yourself, you know why? Why why are we tilling? Or why are we doing XYZ farming practice? Is it because our predecessors or grandfathers and fathers were doing it? Or is it because there's a scientific base reason? And I think once you start to ask the why you can start to uncover a lot of information about your farming operations internally, increase efficiencies and have better deliverables just by asking why.

Nearly Perfect Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Your website is the hub for your brand's core information: location, history, shop, and more. It's where people come to learn more about what you have to offer and why they should support your business.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

The brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet is a simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

By highlighting your dedication to sustainability you create a deeper connection with your website visitors. When your visitors read about the conscious care that goes into producing your wines, they can feel good about supporting a system of winemaking that helps protect the people and the planet.

Here are two easy places to share your Sustainable Story on your website.

Dedicate a Page to Sustainability

Put your commitment to sustainability front and center by dedicating an entire page to your certification!

Here are three great examples of how brands have included sustainably no their website.

1) WaterFire has added SIP Certified right to their main navigation on their home page. This page exhibits a colorful infographic, and tells visitors what their certification means.

2) Cambria looks at sustainability not as a checklist, but as a way of being. Their Keeping it Real – 100% Certified Sustainable page offers six specific sustainable metrics so visitors know what sustainability really looks like.

3) Laetitia Vineyard & Winery goes a step further by embedding a video on their Sustainability page. During his 2-minute narration, Eric Hickey, Senior Winemaker and General Manager, tells visitors a quick story about the history of the vineyard, and gives a few examples of sustainable practices that are used today.

Blog Posts

1) Ancient Peaks has created an easy to find category for all things Sustainability on their extensive blog page. Complete with a downloadable Sustainability in Practice at Ancient Peaks Winery sheet, this post gives a sampling of six sustainability initiatives that embody their love for the land.

2) Just Enough Wines recently made a blog post highlighting how they source grapes grown through Sustainable Winegrowing Practices. When readers see Just Enough Wines on the shelf, they'll remember that sustainability is one of their core values.

3) Hope Family Wines uses their blog to help educate visitors on what sustainability means. A read through their blog post, Sustainable Wine vs Organic Wine, explains how both programs support a system of winegrowing that helps the planet.

They're coming! Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members

Ready for some Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified members? In the next Marketing Tip, learn what Shale Oak Winery does to address one of California's biggest sustainability concerns through their responsible Water Management practices.

Use the Sustainable Story worksheet to help you identify the ways your brand embodies the 7 sustainable values:

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, an example from Niner Wine Estates, to share the blog post about Vina Robles' story, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet for Electronic Filling
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Social Responsibility: Vina Robles
• Vineyard Team

The health of a grapevine starts at ground level – literally in the soil. The California Department of Food and Agriculture is helping farmers improve the quality of their soils through the Healthy Soils Initiative. Taylor Jones, Ph.D., Director of Viticulture at Star Lane and Dierberg Vineyards used his funding as an opportunity to study the effects of compost. After completing two three-year trials in six different soil types in two American Viticulture Areas, Taylor found that compost additions significantly increased organic matter, Reduced Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium usage by 35 percent, and decreased water use dramatically.

Listen in to hear the only downside to increasing the use of compost on your vineyard.

References:

• 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines
• 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health
• 163: Onsite Compost Production Using Vineyard Waste
• 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost
• 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change
• California Department of Food and Agriculture's Healthy Soils Initiative
• Compost Benefits and Quality for Viticultural Soils
• Compost use in premium vineyard development
• Dierberg Vineyard
• Taylor Jones LinkedIn
• Tyler Jones: [email protected]

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

Craig Macmillan 0:00

Here with me today is Taylor Jones. He's Director of Viticulture at Star Lane in Dierberg Vineyards. And we're gonna talk about some soil health projects that he's got going. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Taylor Jones 0:10

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

I just learned about this recently, and you talked about a little bit in the vineyard team tailgate meeting that got me interested, you have more than one thing going on? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, we do. And these projects are funded by the California Department of Food and Agriculture Healthy Soils program. Is that right?

Taylor Jones 0:25

Yes, that's correct.

Craig Macmillan 0:27

We'd love to chat about that part of it a little bit later. But right now, I really want to know what you're doing. How many projects, what are they about? What are you trying to find out?

Taylor Jones 0:33

We have two projects, we were awarded two different grants, one for each of our vineyard properties that we have. So we have one healthy soils project over in Santa Rita Hills that started in 2018. And it's a three year program. And then we have another project that's healthy soils program at our Star Lane Vineyard in Happy Canyon, AVA and over their three year project also. And that one started in 2020, I believe. So we just hit our final year, this this last year. So yeah, to two different projects. And essentially, we're the states paying us to put compost down and improve our soil health. So we're jumping on that and trying to see what actually happens in the vineyard after compost has been applied. Since we're getting all of this compost from CDFA. It's we're going to use the money that we're saving on the compost to kind of do some some studies and see what's actually being impacted in our vineyard soils.

Craig Macmillan 1:30

So talking about the Star Rita AVA, project.

Taylor Jones 1:33

Over at Santa Rita hills, we have Drum Canyon vineyard, and over there we were awarded, it was 35 acres of compost applications, we had six tons per acre. For three years, over the three year span, we had 18 tons per acre put down down over there what we did, we tried to, as best we could make an experiment, you know, it's kind of hard to make a proper randomized trial. In a field when you're doing compost applications with your normal operations, we try to apply compost in all the areas that we could in our vineyard and while leaving a few barrier rows that we could do tests. And so we had, for example, we'd have 10 rows applied with compost, and then a few rows, no compost so that we could test those rows separately see what's going on. Are there changes in organic matter? Are we seeing changes in compaction, all the good stuff that comes with soil, so testing soils for nutrition, microbial populations, and then also water, I think water is the big thing. So that's how we set everything up on the property, we have five or six different soil types that we apply conference to and in each soil type, we did our own measurements there. And we were able to have soil moisture probes in most areas so that we could utilize those to help with some data. We really saw a lot of benefits from putting the compost down. I mean, we're in you're entering our sixth year after application, the state's requiring us to send a final numbers and we have to do one more test of organic matter. So that's coming up soon for our final dataset. Overall, we saw some great really good impacts from from the healthy soil program at that site.

Craig Macmillan 3:11

Before we go farther, are we talking about banding under the vine we're talking about broadcasting?

Taylor Jones 3:14

Whenever you do your grant, you have to specify what you're going to do. And in our case, we went with banding the spreader that we have is a bander you know we'd have six foot rows and we have a ag soil works hydraulic gripper, the wings move. So we're in an area where we have a lot of compaction. Typically we like to rip every three years every other row. And so that kind of led to the decision of banding. We're getting the compost close to the vine. Since we're in a six foot row, our rippers going right down the vine row right next to the root zone. So we're trying to get everything incorporated and move down lower in the soil profile. That was our target what we did we since we had three different years, and we didn't want to rip every single year, we did well alternating rows. One year we did every other row with a compost band and rip. The following year we did the even numbered rows with the compost band and rip and then the final year, our desire was to go no till so at the final year, we banded and we just did a light disk and seed on top of that, that we didn't unnecessarily rip over again. So it was technically a combo of riping and broadcast.

Craig Macmillan 4:22

Unrelated just further conversation that I've had weed control under the vine using some kind of cold federal weed knife or using herbicides?

Taylor Jones 4:31

For the extent of this trial. We use it herbicides, trying to keep all the weeds down as much as possible so that we're not seeing any funky results coming from having weeds all over the place. So we try to keep the berms clean as possible.

Craig Macmillan 4:42

And this one has been going for a little while now. What kind of preliminary results do you think you're seeing?

Taylor Jones 4:47

We're seeing some some great preliminary results. The most impactful result that we're seeing is water. Our water usage has declined dramatically. I mean, we went from irrigating every two weeks historically, this will be my eighth vintage here at the company, we used to always pretty religiously we'd water every two weeks, if not more over on that property. And every year, we were kind of able to spread that out, we were seeing water holding capacity almost increase. So last year, we ended up waiting 79 days from basically from bloom until we harvested, we were able to not water at all. Pretty amazing, we were able to heat stress, we have totally sensors in the field that help us tailor our irrigation strategies, but that 79 days of no water being used was significant for our operation in terms of water savings, you know, propane costs, even the irrigator had more time to do other things besides troubleshoot the irrigation system. I think all of that kind of stemmed from the organic matter increase. We saw, on average over a three year timespan, the average was about point 2% increase in organic matter per year for those three years. And you know, 1% organic matter is more or less 20,000 gallons of water per acre that you can hold. That's our goal. Let's try to increase organic matter by 1% and try to achieve that extra water holding capacity. Let's see how high we can get and so we had different different soil types reacted differently in terms of how well they held water.

What kind of soils do you have out there? We're talking about the Santa Ynez River Valley, we're talking about being relatively close to Lompoc, for those of you who are interested, there is tremendous will type variability all through that area. And Drum Canyon is relatively on the west side of that area. I would describe it as that what kind of sils do you have out there?

So we have top of the hill pure sandbox, as you go down the hill, we have some nice Shaylee loans. As we continue down, we get more and more loamy but a little bit more clay and silt as you kind of go to the flats. We're getting a lot more water holding capacity there in the flat zone. And then we have another corner of the vineyard that is the lowest coldest spot and that's mostly sand like a kind of like a sandy clay. So huge variability in soils, we kind of have almost all the types on our property, which is well fun for me.

Craig Macmillan 7:12

Fun for you. Tremendous variation in water holding capacity.

Taylor Jones 7:15

Oh yeah, we had a block we tried to establish our sandy soils, and that was watering twice a week with four gallons per vine, like just trying to get those vines. I mean, it's windy there, we have a lot of struggles and sand is sands an issue trying to get vines established. And to get that taproot down, otherwise, our loams on the hillsides, they tend to have good drainage, they're maybe two feet deep before you hit a layer of sandstone. So our soils are fairly shallow. So we get good water infiltration and penetration, good ability to stress the vines out quickly, but not really holding water. Well, as you get to the flood zone, we've always been able to irrigate a little bit less often those soils kind of have more of clay particles, they're holding on to water a little bit more, until you hit the sandy zone and there are definitely watering twice as much as we do in other areas.

Craig Macmillan 8:02

But you're seeing improvement in all these areas?

Taylor Jones 8:05

Definitely every single area of all in line with each other and what what we're seeing in in our sandy soil series, we saw the higher increase in organic matter than the other soil series. And we were able to irrigate slightly less in those zones than the other ones, which then in previous years percentage wise, which was surprising, but also I'm so glad water is the same you know, in our sandy soils, we saw almost it was point eight 5% organic matter increase total over a final timespan. So that's the equivalent of 16,600 gallons per acre that of water that was used, On the lower end some of the, our loamy silty soils, we ended up getting about a point seven 2.45% increase over five years. So a little bit different there. But you know, we didn't need as much help with holding water in those soils of the sandy soils. So it kind of balanced out percentage wise in terms of how much water we were using.

Craig Macmillan 9:06

What about above ground? Did you see changes in the vines, the fruit crop load, wine quality?

Taylor Jones 9:11

Not so much crop load tons tons per acre, we're pretty spot on throughout the vineyard with seasonal variability. For better or for worse. Some areas we had too much vigor, some areas are vigor was improved overall vigor was higher than than previous years, even with reduced water and reduced and reduced fertilizer inputs as well. So yeah, above ground pruning weights increased a little bit. But that was that was kind of expected. We're having a lot more vigor. But yeah, fruit load was not impacted, which is fine. We're not like trying to pump out as much fruit as possible.

Craig Macmillan 9:43

We've made wines out of these?

Taylor Jones 9:45

Yes. So why is not really a lot of changes in wine. Our winemaking team. They make a couple different wines. A lot of its blended from different areas of our flat zones. And in our other ranch we saw some Yans increasing Other than Yans, that's about it in terms of wine quality was still on point with with every previous year, so no changes in wine quality and no changes in Brix or pH, anything like that phenologically ripening, everything seemed to be pretty, pretty standard for our ranch.

Craig Macmillan 10:18

And that's a good transition. So what about the Happy Canyon?

Taylor Jones 10:21

We're just getting some, I'm finally organizing some data for Happy Canyon. And they're we're seeing similar results. And if anything this year more so or we have had some pretty significant rains. But our cover crop took off a lot quicker than any previous year, this last November, November, December is when we put our final load of compost in from healthy soils. So we were in year three, and we're finally seeing cover crops just taking off. Unfortunately, I think the only downside of these projects has been a lot of increase in in inter row weeds, we've had a lot more weeds creeping up. And that's just I think, some of the compost we're getting this now the seed beds in there just stuck there. And you can see the Malvo just coming up right where we planted and ripped, which is frustrating, but I'll take the soil benefits and deal with the weeds later, you know. Happy Canyon, we're seeing very similar results, we're starting to be able to use less water on a per annual basis, we have a little bit less soil diversity over at Happy Canyon a lot more silty clay silty on the hillsides, clays towards the bottom and the flats. That grant there was 95 acres of compost and give that reference over over a three year timespan that ends up being it was 58 $59,000 worth of compost that we got to not to have from the state which which was phenomenal. And then at the Star Lane project, we're only doing four times an acre, not six tons an acre, the grants kind of based off of what compost you're buying and your carbon nitrogen ratio of your compost, so four tons an acre and Happy Canyon still with the goal of trying to go no till over there. And we're seeing similar increases in organic matter where we're getting that point 2.25% increase year after a year. So there were targeting hopefully, my goal is to find one block, maybe that we can get a full 1% increase in that would be amazing. But it's good to see similarity over two different ADAs two different ranches. It's nice to see the similarities kind of confirming what we're seeing at one ranch versus the other ranch.

Craig Macmillan 12:24

And I want to come back to that. But before I forget, again, we're talking about this is four tons per acre banded, you are not tilling the middle right now.

Taylor Jones 12:32

Correct.

Craig Macmillan 12:33

But you are tilling with that piece of equipment over at the Santa Rita ranch when you have to occasionally yes in terms of no tilled you for see Star Lane being able to farm with a no till system indefinitely? Or do you have plans that you'll have to reset the system every so often? And if so, how would you go about it?

Taylor Jones 12:53

That's that's a good question. I think that I would love to go no tilling indefinitely, unfortunately, with the rate of compaction all of our soils have and then the heavy equipment we're using it's it's inevitable that we're going to have to rip and till but I don't think that we'll ever have to do like every single year full plowed down kind of stuff. I'm totally fine with instead of ripping every three years, let's double that to rip every six years or even further down the road, see how far we can push it. I think with our compaction results that we're seeing in both ranches, our rate of compaction has reduced by about 80% We should be able to go for about five and a half years without ripping instead of every three years. So we can probably push that to six years and rip and then you know, maybe future copost applications will help reduce that even more. We're doing some no till trials where we planted a vineyard and started it no till and comparing it to the same block that's being tilled annually every year. And so far, we're five or six years in now and seeing no differences in yield or plant growth which is promising because I think that for our soil future we kind of need to go the the no till route and you know show that it can be done. And let's see what happens.

Craig Macmillan 14:06

Something that we didn't touch on that. I think if our listeners are not familiar, this is in Santa Barbara County, Santa Yenz Valley. Happy Canyon and the Star Rita AVAs are about as different as you could possibly get in my opinion. So fill us in a little bit about what's going on soil and climate between those two branches.

Taylor Jones 14:24

Both are similar in terms of frost. I mean we had we always have the same amount of frost days I feel like but yeah, so So Santa Rita hills a lot closer to the ocean. You've got the Santa Ynez mountain range, they're going east to west kind of funneling in all the morning fog so we get Santa Rita Hills morning fog usually burning out towards the end of the day, high winds and that that kind of leads to some nice distressed plants are really big fluxes in temperatures with daytime highs versus nighttime colds very similar toHappy Canyon Aava like stuff over there, we get a lot warmer during the day, we're seeing a lot more 90 degree plus days than what we would see in Santa Rita Hills. And with with the way the climates moving, both ranches seem to be trending towards more and more and more high heat days. And we're seeing more cold days as well. And out at Happy Canyon, we're kind of on the far edge of Happy Canyon where Star Lane is and we have morning fog kind of creeps in and it will kind of tickle the edge of our ranch almost kind of recedes a lot more back into Santa Ynez. So at Star Lane, we get a lot more a lot less foggy mornings, kind of ocean mist, and we have a lot more beautiful sunny mornings out. But over there, we also have a lot of wind as well, the significant amount of wind. So AVA wise, they are, you know, they're fairly, fairly similar, I would say only because you have some of that marine influence. High winds with soil types are completely different. And just like the amount of the day that you're getting sunlight in different areas, and wind is fairly different as well.

Craig Macmillan 16:05

Tell me a little bit about the Healthy Soils program. I think this is a really fascinating thing. I remember when it started, and how did you find out about it? How did you get led to it? What was the process like for getting into it?

Taylor Jones 16:17

Trying to think I found it, I really liked looking for grant money, I came from an academic background. And if there's free money to be had, why not apply for it, we use all the tractor replacement grants, we're trying to get electrification grants, you know, find money where we can find it to help our help our company out. Pretty sure we just stumbled upon this program being available. And we basically talked to CDFA. And we're like, Hey, we're interested in applying and said, Here's the process. And it ended up being kind of ridiculously easy. I'm surprised that more people don't apply for Healthy Soils programs, there's just an an online application that you fill out, not only while you're filling out this application, they make you use the Comet Planner tool online, which is a really fun tool, if nobody's used it before, just to estimate greenhouse gas emission reductions based on you know, that's, that's kind of the core of the program is reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing organic matter in your soils. And comet planner can kind of help you look at that. So there's some criteria you have to meet, you cannot have applied compost on these fields within I forget what it was in the last five years or something like that. If you've been applying compost, you can't get the Healthy Soils program. So we used some areas, we had put compost down so we couldn't use those zones, which is why in our Drum Canyon Ranch is 69 acres, but we could only put compost down on 35 of that. So that's one One limitation of the program. But overall, you pick your blocks that you want to do you set out a sampling protocol for them. And they'll usually accept it. And it's essentially you sample your soils every year during the program prior to compost application. And they'll reimburse you for those soil samples as well. So that you can track your organic matter. That's that's all they require. We submit our soils for more testing than just organic matter. Yeah, overall, it's a really simple end of the year, you have to send them proof of your project. And that's generally photos of the compost arriving pictures of the team implementing the compost, actually putting it into the ground, receipts, invoices that you had for just everything to prove that you've done what you do. And then yeah, it's three years. And then in year five, you have one last soil sample to send to the state. So overall, it's a simple application process. I found it one of the easier grants to actually apply for.

Craig Macmillan 18:38

You mentioned that you were doing soil analysis beyond just the soil organic matter what what variables are you looking at?

Taylor Jones 18:44

We just submitted for a full a full soil health panel looking back on it, I wish I would have added bulk density on that, because I think that would have been interesting to see how it changed. But you know, hindsight is 2020 but we looked at you know, NPK, calcium, magnesium cation exchange capacity. Any differences in pH, soil moisture, sodium, just kind of the whatever you send to us soil lab, whatever they'll give you for those tests. I think the biggest thing was we reduced our NPK usage by about 35%. At both ranches after this soil results showed you know we had some NPK increases, but not really as much. I think what we're seeing more so is our vines, roots, finding new areas where they haven't been before. And they're kind of being able to utilize resources that previously weren't available to them. So that's leading to our decrease in fertilizer usage, which is great. We're trying to go towards organic and getting away from a lot of inorganic fertilizer usages would be spectacular.

Craig Macmillan 19:47

That reminds me of something so have you been applying either synthetic organic NPK formulations on top of the compost as the compost been it for the fertility program?

Taylor Jones 19:56

We still do add a little bit, a little bit of NPK but more so calcium, we will have more calcium applications. Especially out in Happy Canyon, we have really high serpentine soils and really bad magnesium problems. So we're always trying to add in gypsum and calcium whenever we can. The Drum Canyon Ranch, not too much of a problem over there we have a problem with potassium uptake. Um, so we do increase our potassium usage they're coming into this year, I think we're really going to reduce based on what we saw last year in terms of vigor and vine health. I mean, our nitrogen applications are going to be really low. Phosphorus, we're always pretty fine on we don't need to use much will probably continue with potassium, but we'll see what petioles looked like this year.

Craig Macmillan 20:40

Well, we're running out of time. Is there one thing that you would tell a grower one piece of advice you'd give to a grower regarding what you've learned from this project?

Taylor Jones 20:49

I mean, the advice is use compost, I think we're we're seeing root zones reaching areas they haven't before where we're using significantly less water, which is just key to farming in California and really in the world going forward. You know, you're you're increasing your CEC or your cation exchange capacity so less nutrients down I mean, you're getting compost is kind of like a win win scenario. The only downside is weeds. Our soils are seem to be returned to normal. We had earthworms returned for the first time since I've been at this ranch. Five different soil pits we found earthworms in which they've never been in before. They're kind of creeping in from the edges, which is awesome. I think we're gonna maybe transition to worm farming.

Craig Macmillan 21:33

(laughs). Where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Speaker 2 21:39

you could always find out. Dierberg and Star Lane Vineyards, we have Dierbergvineyard.com. Starlanevineyard.com. Otherwise, I kind of just bounced around the Santa Barbara County. I think it always...

Craig Macmillan 21:50

Just like if you're looking if you're looking for him. Just go to Santa Barbara County and drive around a little bit. Yeah. Probably near a vineyard.

Taylor Jones 21:58

Yeah, exactly.

Craig Macmillan 22:00

He has a lot of friends.

Taylor Jones 22:02

But no, yeah, you know, I'm happy if people want to reach out to me. You know, my emails, Taylor [email protected]. Yeah, happy to help people out with applying for grants or if they want to chat or look at some data. I'm always down to see what other people are seeing and compare what we're seeing in our AVA versus another AVA or different grower strategies for compost applications. You know, I think information sharing is the way to go.

Craig Macmillan 22:28

Yeah, totally. Fantastic. Well, Taylor, I just am so happy you could be on the on the podcast, this has really been fun for me.

Taylor Jones 22:35

Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 22:36

This is a topic. It's obviously a hot topic, continuing topic. And I think that the longer that we as an industry have been doing this, because this isn't something that people were doing in the 70s for instance, you know, is this you know, we've all had to learn we've had a compost is not just compost, you need look, the analyses and this rate is not the same as that rate and on the soil does that and the fact that you guys are doing that work along with everybody else and that you're sharing information. I think it's really fantastic. So, thank you so much for your contribution.

Taylor Jones 23:03

Yeah. Thank you.

Craig Macmillan 23:04

So our guest has been Taylor Jones. He is director of viticulture at Star Lane and Dierberg Vineyards in Santa Barbara County.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

While telling your sustainable story serves a practical purpose in educating consumers about the real-world impact of your sustainable practices, it also goes deeper than that: it builds meaningful emotional connections.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

The brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet is a simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Today we share why messaging around social equity is important to your customers and you'll hear how Vina Robles embodies social responsibility.

About 70% of the decisions we make are based on emotional factors (Gallup 2022). Build emotional connections over shared values with your customers by telling your sustainable story. When you do this, you are reminding your customers that at the same time that they are appreciating a great glass of wine, they are also supporting a system of winemaking that cares for the people and the planet.

Social Responsibility at Vina Robles

Did you know that planting a tree can be as easy as enjoying a bottle of wine? It can be when you buy a bottle of Vina Robles' the Arborist!

In their partnership with One Tree Planted and the Arbor Day Foundation, Vina Robles dedicates a portion of the proceeds from every bottle of the Arborist that is sold to plant trees.

Since the program began in the year 2000, nearly 33,000 trees have been planted thanks to these organizations and every person who purchases a bottle of the Arborist.

This partnership is a natural extension of the winery's passion for trees and sustainable viticulture.

The oak tree depicted on the bottle of this red blend represents the Legacy Oak – a 300+-year-old oak tree rooted on the estate Jardine Vineyard.

The wine is dedicated to Vina Robles' founder, Hans Nef, and named for the arborist who saved the tree from its declining health in 2014.

This initiative is a tremendous display of Social Responsibility by Vina Robles. Giving back to the community and environment that they call home is just one of the ways they embody the 7 SIP Certified Values.

Tell Your Sustainable Story

Many people know that there is a higher value in products that are made sustainably, but they don't really know what sustainability means in day-to-day operations. That's why we encourage you to identify specific sustainable practices that your brand uses and create a narrative that is easy to share and incorporate into daily conversations.

Use the Sustainable Story worksheet to help you identify the ways your brand embodies the 7 sustainable values:

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, an example from Niner Wine Estates, to share the blog post about Vina Robles' story, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet for Electronic Filling
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Social Responsibility: Vina Robles
• Vineyard Team

One way that growers can farm sustainably for the future is through vineyard fleet management. Marc Di Pietra, Regional Service Maintenance Manager for Treasury Americas, a subsidiary of global wine company Treasury Wine Estates, is doing just that by exploring alternative fuel sources and automation. Electric and hybrid vehicles reduce carbon emissions and lower the cost of fuel. The use of remote-operated equipment improves safety for operators, upscales the workforce, improves efficiencies, and has the potential to passively gather valuable data. The challenge is the existing infrastructure needed to support these tools. Learn what equipment Marc and his team are trialing as they work towards a goal to use 100% renewable energy.

References:

• May 12, 2023 Integrating Mechanization Tailgate Meeting - REGISTER
• 77: Vineyard Pruning Technology
• 173: Reduce Your Carbon Footprint with Lightweight Wine Bottles
• Agtonomy
• Guss
• Monarch Tractor
• Polaris
• Robotics Plus
• Marc Di Pietra email
• Marc Di Pietra LinkedIn
• Stavros Vougioukas, Ph.D, Professor and Department Vice Chair, Biological and Agricultural Engineering, UC Davis
• Treasury Wines Estates
• Treasury Wine Estates 2022 Sustainability Report
• Treasury Wine Estates on LinkedIn

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• SIP Certified – Join to protect natural and human resource with us
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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And our guest today is Marc Di Pietra. He's Regional Service Maintenance Manager for Treasury America's part of Treasury Wine Estates. And thanks for being on the podcast.

Marc Di Pietra 0:09

Thank you, Craig, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you today, especially about some of the things we're working on. We're really excited, quick background on me. I joined Treasury wWine Estates in mid 2018, then transitioned into vineyard operations around 2019. And then since then, I've been focused on our equipment, sleep management in the vineyard with an eye on what farming of the future looks like.

Craig Macmillan 0:28

Farming of the future. That's a really interesting topic and a really big question, what that is going to look like, what kinds of things are you doing? What kinds of things do you do as part of this position as part of this project?

Marc Di Pietra 0:40

It's a great question, because every day it changes, right. But two of the biggest areas of opportunities that we see, we see alternative fuel types, fully electric, hybrid hydrogen or alternative fuel sources, and then also automation or remote operated mechanization. And so for alternative fuels, two of the major points here are obviously the rising cost of fuel, and then also how to lower our carbon emissions. So Treasury as a whole and supportive lowering emissions, we've been implemented two key goals in our journey. And that starts with a target of 100% renewable energy by 2024. That's the first step. And then the second step of that is net zero for scopes, one and two by 2030. So pretty big, lofty goals there. But that's why we're starting that path now.

Craig Macmillan 1:24

So Marc, can you kind of explain what scope one and scope two are in the world of carbon accounting?

Marc Di Pietra 1:30

Yeah, sure. So scope. One, emissions are direct greenhouse gas emissions that occur from sources controlled or owned by an organization. So an example like fuel combustion, boiler, furnace vehicles, things like that. Scope, two emissions, or indirect greenhouse gas emissions through the purchase of electricity, Steam, heat, or cooling. And then lastly, scope three, which is much bigger than that as activities from assets not owned or controlled by the organization, but indirectly affected value, like shipping supply chain, gas bottles, things like that.

Craig Macmillan 2:00

Yeah. And there's a lot of folks that are getting interested in that part of my job with Niner Wine Estates is who I work for. We're trying to figure out what's the carbon footprint of the glass we use, and many other people are looking at that same thing. Because when you stop and think about it, you go, Hey, wait a second, this came from France. And it weighs X, huh. You know, and so it's that kind of scope three stuff is really interesting to a lot of people.

Marc Di Pietra 2:23

Treasury on the background has done a lot of work on that to understand that big picture.

Craig Macmillan 2:26

And we have an episode that mentions that.

Marc Di Pietra 2:28

And the second big piece, which I hadn't hinted on was automation, also a key initiative because it allows us to help improve like our operator safety, upscale our existing workforce while improving efficiencies in the field. There's also an added bonus, that with this type of technology, we'll have the ability to gather passive data, which right now, it's still relatively new. But as we continue to grow and develop, we can process that data to make smarter decisions, you would ask some of the things that we're working on. So here in the US, we're working with GUSS remote operated spray systems, we've got Agtonomy, which is electric and remotely operated alternative to the tractor that you're familiar with. We've got two atari and Polaris electric, RTVs, Robotics Plus systems, which is both hybrid and remote operating. And we're also currently waiting for order of Monarch tractors that should be here in the next couple of weeks. Our international teams, they're also using some different equipment as well, such as vide bots or farm, Kelby, the yields and a few others.

Craig Macmillan 3:25

Talk to me about these alternate fuel things. I think this is a really interesting idea. And I haven't really followed it, tell someone who's never heard of this kind of thing, how this works?

Marc Di Pietra 3:35

Well, the easiest way to think about as you're driving up and down the road, and you see a gas station, and you see those three different price points, for 87 89, and 91. And that's all pretty basic, but then you add in the cost of diesel on top of that there are other ways to fuel equipment as well. So we have a fully electric like you're familiar with your Tesla's or your Chevy bolts, but there's also hybrid, which you're familiar with to it has been doing this for a long time. And then there's also other types of fuel, like methane and hydrogen that are out there as well. The real big challenge that we're seeing, at least on our end, is the infrastructure to support all of these different growing ideas. That's why we're currently trying both electric and the hybrid options.

Craig Macmillan 4:14

Do you think that there is a future for things like methane, hydrogen, those ideas have kind of come and gone? And I think a lot of it, like you said, is the infrastructure part?

Marc Di Pietra 4:21

You know, it's a great question, because I don't have all the answers. But I do know that different companies are trying things to capture, especially in farming, so where you have dairy farms that can collect the methane, you've got the fermentation process, which allows you to capture different chemicals across the way. So I think there is a place for it depending on where you're at. And then again, it goes back to how you can capture and store that safely.

Craig Macmillan 4:45

So let's go back to electric and hybrid. You mentioned a whole range of different vehicles that could run on electric and hybrid. Can you tell me a little bit about is it a hybrid tractors or strictly electric tractors? These are the things that need more house horsepower, and they're a little bit big You're What's that landscape looking like right now? That's very exciting for a lot of us.

Marc Di Pietra 5:04

Yeah. And it's a great question because again, that's those are all the things that we're asking ourselves. The reason we're so spread out is because we're in the early adoption phase, and Treasury has allowed us to be that. So we're trying different pieces of the puzzle to see what works best for us. The reason we've tried a fully electric tractor is because there are currently two or three options out there that we feel really comfortable with demoing in our fields, it's not going to take the place of what we're currently doing. But it allows us to step into our farming practices and see if it is truly a viable option. Hybrid is a little bit more of that in between step, it's, you know, it's one step towards that end goal of zero emissions, because it is more efficient. You know, you get the benefits of that. But also, it doesn't completely Have you dependent on the grid, the electric grid or infrastructure of what's happening around you. You talked about going into larger formats, and there is a concern about battery life there. And that we know that that technology is changing rapidly. So we are starting with a couple see how it evolves, and then we can make an informed decision based on that.

Craig Macmillan 6:06

Stay with tractors are these vehicles that are coming to you from manufacturers ready to go? Are you making modifications yourself? Are you taking with a base unit making modifications to something that's already existing? What kind of involvement does it take on your part to work with this technology at this point?

Marc Di Pietra 6:21

Depending on the program that we're using, so let's say on our for example, that comes to us more or less ready to use. So they have tools that will connect to your standard three point. So there's not much modification or or there but another company, Agtonomy that we're working with, we're on the ground level with them while they're still developing. So it gives us an opportunity to give our feedback of what we're looking for. So we're seeing a lot of rapid change quickly that will help support our needs.

Craig Macmillan 6:46

Will that tractor still be based on a three point hitch?

Marc Di Pietra 6:49

It will have a front mounted tool bar on the front? And we're talking to them about getting front and rear mounted tools?

Craig Macmillan 6:56

What kind of horsepower? Are we talking here? Are we are we comparable to a regular track layer? Are we talking to a regular four wheel drive depends on the size, but are we in the same range?

Marc Di Pietra 7:06

That's the goal, you know, obviously Electric is more efficient than your standard diesel motor. So when you get a diesel motor that says they're pushing 100 horsepower, we believe that the electric range tractor that's stating a range between 45 to 85 horsepower is comparable to that 95 to 100 horsepower tractor. Now again, there's still a lot of work going on to validate that, but we have seen improved efficiencies and we think that will be if not, they're close to it.

Craig Macmillan 7:34

And getting really technical. What is the power supply? Like for these? Are you having to bring in extra electrical service above what you already have? Because a lot of shops don't have a 480? For instance, amperage? What kind of amperage do you need? It sounds like a totally new kind of thing.

Marc Di Pietra 7:50

Yeah, so for the two that I've mentioned, for us, we are using both 60 amp circuit with a 48 amp charger capability, as well as some 100 amp circuits that will support an 80 amp charger. So we're not using anything that is above and beyond like we would see with a Tesla quick charger. And in both of those cases, though, with the 40 and 80 amp chargers, we're still looking at a charge time of overnight, four to six hours.

Craig Macmillan 8:15

So that's very practical. Really. That could work.

Marc Di Pietra 8:17

Yeah. And because Treasury has several ranches, we are looking at it holistically, excuse me, we're implementing different charging systems on different sites as well to understand the draw on the need of those to see how efficient they are affected they are on our site.

Craig Macmillan 8:32

Is there any real change for the tractor operators? Are there new things they need to learn how to do or is it kind of based on what they've been doing is,

Marc Di Pietra 8:39

There is a big change for the operator because they need to understand that it's not sit in the seat, turn on the key and hit the gas pedal. It's understanding what the screen is telling you when you turn on the tractor, where you're at power wise. So there's some nuances, but ultimately, it still runs and drives like a tractor that you're familiar with. It's just like learning a new a new cellphone, for example, Android versus iPhone.

Craig Macmillan 9:02

Yeah, I just got a new phone and I'm struggling. I have to admit. You also had mentioned passive data collection, which I'm very interested in. I've been tracking this concept for quite a few years now. What kinds of data are you interested in collecting? And how's it been going so far?

Marc Di Pietra 9:15

We have been talking to several different companies that offer passive data. But our goal is to try to implement it on the platforms we're currently working with. I referenced the Agtonomy a lot, because again, our input is going into their development quite a bit. They're looking to add sensors to their machines to gather that data that we're looking for. I would say we're still in the very, very beginning stages of that. Some of the benefits of using this passive data is the machine will have more than two sets of eyes on like our current tractor and operator with that we can gather information around density, disease cluster counts, as well as monitoring the sensors that are out in the field such as irrigation or moisture. And just about anything else you can think of that a sensor can gather for you.

Craig Macmillan 10:00

And you're in early trials with it sounds like you actually started collecting data. I was a little confused.

Marc Di Pietra 10:07

Oh, excuse me. No, we haven't there are companies out there that we spoken with. But again, we're trying to rely on our partnerships and use their platform. Again, we're trying to do a lot of things on one machine to see what's valuable to us long term. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 10:21

And you had mentioned remotely operated vehicles. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Tell me about that. I just think that is so cool. Autonomous machines.

Marc Di Pietra 10:29

Thinking about remote operated, there's several factors involved. First and foremost, it's important to me and our team is the safety of our operators. Currently, we've got spray teams that are working, you know, in the middle of the night, they're working back and forth, up and down each row. So what this allows the operator to do is get back outside of the tractor, manage, ideally, multiple machines from one computer. So obviously, efficiency gains, but you're getting that operator out of harm's way out of the way of the equipment as well as out of any chemicals you might be spraying along the way.

Craig Macmillan 10:58

Are there elements of this that are controlled by computer or artificial intelligence, what I'm thinking of is there's been some work by John Deere, in particular, with GPS guided tractors in the Midwest, where you set a path and it will go wherever you tell it to go little trickier when you have a row on either side, especially if it's a seven foot row or something like that. How hard is it for an operator to control this thing?

Marc Di Pietra 11:23

Actually, from my experience, so far, controlling it with through a laptop computer, controlling not one machine, but multiple machines seems to be quite easy, because there are so many sensors on the platform that will allow it to tell you not only where it needs to go to go from, say, your barn or your shed to where it's starting a job for the day. But while it's going through the row, it's looking for any obstructions that might be in the way whether that's a tumbleweed. Coyote, a person, you know, all of those things for safety, but it also gathers all of that data. And it also knows where all the other machines are as well. And the operator is sitting behind a laptop, making sure that each path because they can see multiple machines on one screen, you know, through data points on a map, it can say, hey, that machine is going well. It's has 25% solution left, and it's tank. So we need to stop at at this point. And all the machines are talking to each other. So there's awareness about what's happening around it as well.

Craig Macmillan 12:17

That's amazing. That's amazing. How far down the path are you with this?

Marc Di Pietra 12:20

Well, I mean, there's two commercial products available now that we will have in our vineyards. Currently, we have the GUSS spray system. They've started in nuts in the Central Valley. But now they've they have actively sprayed over 1 million acres. And we have the first two vineyard sprayers in California that we will have started spraying with I guess in the next, like two weeks or so.

Craig Macmillan 12:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, here we are. It's time Yeah, exactly.

Marc Di Pietra 12:45

It came fast. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 12:47

From a cultural standpoint or a management standpoint, I just am curious. What kind of terrain are we talking about? Are we talking about really steep slopes, we talked about flatter ground, we talked about narrow rows. Treasury has properties all over the place, I'm sure there's a variety of topography that you're having to work with.

Marc Di Pietra 13:01

Yeah, out of the gate, we're starting at a ranch that is relatively flat, it's got long half mile rows. So it'll be nice and efficient for the machine to go up and down back and forth all day long. But the goal is ultimately to take it into the foothills where we're talking up to 10 to 15 degrees of incline that we should not see any problems. And that's with, you know, the equipment that we know we have worked Agtonomy for example, I've seen their machine, go up a degree a slope of about 25 to 30 degrees, no problem.

Craig Macmillan 13:25

We're talking about the machinery. Now let's talk about what the machines are doing. So we've talked about spraying, which is absolutely amazing. Are we using this for under vine cultivation? Are we using this for mowing or using this for tilling what kinds of things you're able to do with these machines?

Marc Di Pietra 13:40

One of the biggest benefits is the underlying cultivation piece, which will allow us to reduce the chemicals that we use in spraying specifically around our herbicide use. We've seen the ability with this autonomous equipment or remotely operated equipment to use undermine tillers and we could do multiple passes with that volt we'd knives, sunflower cultivators, things like that. We can also do a mount where we have a mower on the front and cultivator on the back, that's been a huge benefit and time savings for us as well.

Craig Macmillan 14:08

What are you seeing at this point? Or what are you thinking about? And I know that a lot of things you haven't really kind of gotten into yet, but I know you're looking forward in thinking about this, what is this going to look like from a maintenance standpoint, and also from an employee training, regardless of the position because we're going from a period of having a diesel mechanic, someone who understands how hydraulics work basic things around having vendors who can come out and replace a tire and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like there's going to be some very, very different kinds of maintenance and repair issues here. And we already mentioned drivers, it sounds like there's going to be some very different set of skills that folks are going to have to have to make these systems work. What's that wood in your imagination? What that's looking like right now?

Marc Di Pietra 14:44

Yeah, I think one of the greatest things is the opportunity to upskill our existing workforce. I mean, honestly, it's been really great to see the initial hesitation from our guys when they see this stuff rolled out on the ranch, but then ultimately, once they get their hands on it, how quickly they've adapted to it. And that's been the great Interesting to see because you know, it's getting harder and harder to get employees for the vineyard, it's they're just not available to us, which I'm sure everybody's experienced. So this has really been a great opportunity to see these guys get excited about something new, and upskill them. From a maintenance standpoint, believe it or not, it's actually been much easier than we've anticipated. There's much less regular preventative maintenance needed. So we're not doing oil changes every 500 hours, because electric components require less, they're all sealed. So there's no going into there and changing fluids and things like that. Also, the software on these systems are also capable identifying similar like your car with like a check engine light comes on the system identifies those issues and points us to to those repairs much faster. Now that said, as we evolve, I do see the need to have someone on the team who has a solid understanding of the computer systems and how to address these types of issues outside of our current model, but we also know like we've seen with the car manufacturers, they're training folks up for that. And we're, I've already reached out to a couple of the local, I wouldn't say local, but the the training like UTIs and the wild Tech's of the world to see what type of implementation they haven't talked with them about their job boards. So any young folks coming out of those programs might be looking for something interesting.

Craig Macmillan 16:14

You guys are doing so much stuff. This is amazing. You got a lot going on. Marc, is there any one thing though, that you're really excited about that you're really, really optimistic about at this point?

Marc Di Pietra 16:24

I would say from a process standpoint, like I said, it's really about the operator safety, you know, getting these guys out from behind the tractor in the middle of the night, the efficiency that it brings the reduction of chemicals, like that's all the process stuff that I'm excited about. You know, there are several cool companies out there that we're working with, you know, these guys have great ideas and great minds. And we're all thinking forward. I think that's been one thing that I've really enjoyed is seeing people not worrying about just today. But looking forward.

Craig Macmillan 16:52

And when you look into that crystal ball, what kinds of things do you see coming down the line, not things that you're able to trial now, but things that have potential on the future? There's a lot of work being done, like the precision vineyard project with Cornell and Carnegie Mellon and folks like that, what do you see out there on the horizon? It's, you know, a year ago with science fiction, hint now is starting to look like it could actually happen.

Marc Di Pietra 17:10

Yeah, I think as the autonomous piece gets smarter and better, that's going to be a huge game. And again, I go back to one operator being able to control multiple machines. So that creates efficiency. Again, it goes back to operator safety. For me, it reduces those long days, it reduces middle of the night work for those long hours, and the monotony and the safety of that individual operator, I also really liked the idea of passive data stuff that we've not been able to easily get before and then be able to make smart decisions in the field. If you've got a spot that is say disease prone or not producing as strong as other areas in the vineyard, we'll be able to capture that data and make smart decisions go forward to improve that.

Craig Macmillan 17:48

Measure, to manage, right, get to get the data to make good decisions.

Marc Di Pietra 17:52

And I think that's going to be the biggest opportunity is how do we manage all of that data? That's what I'm really curious about. And that's, that's one thing that I would really like to figure out how to unlock in the future, because we can talk about it. But there's nothing there that can manage multiple systems, multiple points of input. And then whether that's a comparison of like for like mechanical versus the, you know, the future, or whatever that might be, there's so much that we just don't know how to do yet.

Craig Macmillan 18:18

This is a huge area. But is there one thing that you would advise growers are one thing that you would say to growers around automation, hybrid electric, passive data collection, the future basically the future of this kind of mechanization in this kind of electronic world that we're moving into? Is there one piece of advice or one thing you'd one message you'd like growers to know?

Marc Di Pietra 18:37

I think everybody needs to be curious. It's all something that we need to be thinking about, talking about and to help ourselves in the industry and our planet. I mean, there's a quote that I always think of when I talk about this stuff as a rising tide lifts all boats, you know, everybody wants to keep their secret to keep their grapes or their strawberries the best, I understand that. But this technology, the way it's going, you know, labor and employee safety, it's a huge concern for everybody. And I think the more we're talking, the more we're asking questions. And you know, you brought up John Deere. I mean, they're looking into it. Now New Holland is looking into it now. And this is all things started by small people having these ideas, and it's all rolled into bigger things. I encourage everybody, just be curious and talk about it.

Craig Macmillan 19:17

This is great advice. And I think that that's important for our industry. And one of the things I've found over time grape growers are curious and grape growers are willing to experiment within limits and try different things. And I hope that no matter who you are out there, that you will heed Marc's advice and be creative and be optimistic and be open minded. Where can people find out more about you and the things that you're doing?

Marc Di Pietra 19:40

I mean, feel free to reach out to me, obviously, through LinkedIn, feel free to, you know, share my email, if that's an option. Again, I'd like to talk to anybody who's doing something or ask questions.

Craig Macmillan 19:49

Absolutely. And we have a page for each podcast where we will post any kind of resources including contact information, links, papers, anything and so Be sure if you find this interesting to check out the venue team podcast website and take advantage of all the information that's there. Well, Marc, that's all the time we've got for today. Our guest today has been Marc Di Pietra. He is regional service maintenance manager for treasuries America of treasury wine estates. I want to thank so much for being here. This has been a really fascinating conversation. For those of you who are new to downloading the podcast please, again, go to the vineyard team podcast website. We've got hundreds of episodes now on all kinds of different topics.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more.

Yet, almost 52% of employees in the food and beverage industry only receive training when they join their organization. Of those that do receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company's mission and values (TalentLMS, 2019).

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this week's Marketing Tip, we are sharing how the brand-new, Our Sustainable Story series is the perfect tool to use to train your tasting room, sales, and marketing teams. If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated workforce!

One way tasting room managers can educate their staff on the company's mission and values is to have continual conversations about what your brand is up to behind the scenes, i.e., your sustainability efforts.

The latest tool for your team

Our Sustainable Story is the latest addition to our arsenal of tools to help empower your staff.

We created this tool to help you identify and communicate 7 sustainable practices that are specific to your company. Complete the worksheet as a training and conversational exercise for your team at your next staff meeting. We highly encourage you to invite your farmer so they can describe what sustainability looks like out in the vineyard.

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

SIP Tip: see an example from Niner Wine Estates!

Share your Sustainable Story

Regular training for your staff leads to more skilled, informed, and satisfied employees. Plus, after completing this exercise, your staff will be geared up with several unique sustainable stories to share with clients during tastings (a practice that we know can lead to more wine sales!).

They're coming! Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members

Ready for some Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified members? The next Marking Tip will share how Vina Robles displays tremendous Social Responsibility by giving back to the community and environment they call home.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story Worksheet, an example from Niner Wine Estates, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Our Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print
• Our Sustainable Story Worksheet for Electronic Filling
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team

Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi, commonly abbreviated to AMF, coevolved with plants from 500 million to one billion years ago. Fossil evidence shows AMF in existence back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Paul Schreiner, Research Plant Pathologist at USDA-ARS in Corvallis Oregon explains that grapes are a very receptive host for AMF and their symbiotic relationship benefits both organisms. AMF helps plants obtain nutrients like potassium and phosphorous. The plant provides AMF with sugars and fatty acids. AMF lives both inside and outside of the plant. Inside the plant, they form arbuscules inside the root cell. These structures look like little trees and increase surface contact dramatically. Outside the plant, AMF mines for nutrients, likely releases carbon, and prevents soil erosion with its root hair-like structure.

Listen in to learn the practices you want to use, and not use to increase AMF populations.

References:

• 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines
• 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health
• 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost
• Article Abstract: The diversity of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi amplified from grapevine roots (Vitis vinifera L.) in Oregon vineyards is seasonally stable and influenced by soil and vine age
• Paul Schreiner, Oregon State University Courtesy Appointment
• Paul Schreiner on ResearchGate
• USDA-Agricultural Research Service Publications

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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Paul Schreiner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS in Corvallis, Oregon. And today we're going to talk about our arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Thanks for being on the program.

Paul Schreiner 0:11

Thank you for having me, Craig, happy to be here and talk about one of my favorite subjects.

Craig Macmillan 0:17

Obviously, can we just go with AMF, we'll just jump right to that. Yes. Because if I have to arbuscular too many times today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash.

Paul Schreiner 0:27

It's a tough one. And it's back in the old days, it used to be called vesicular, arbuscular mycorrhiza. So it was even harder.

Craig Macmillan 0:34

Yeah, it was even hard. We're not in the old days. Whenever a bunch of scientists were sitting around and going, like, you know, what the V this just too much. Can we get into three words, you know, was that big national meeting of mycologist. All right. So let's just go for you studied EMF for a long time. And you have stayed in the field. So you've studied vineyards? Let's start the very beginning. So what are AMF? And what kinds of roles do they play in the soil and interacting with plants?

Speaker 2 1:00

AMF are, as you said, arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So there are a group of fungi that evolved a really long time ago, estimates are from at least 500 million to a billion years ago.

Craig Macmillan 1:15

Wow.

Speaker 2 1:16

Yeah, that the billion number comes from some molecular clock kind of work, which, you know, is based on mutations in DNA that might be slightly overestimated, but there's fossil evidence that shows them at 450 million years ago. That's a really long time. You know, that's, that's what dinosaurs were around.

Craig Macmillan 1:35

Early dinosaurs if we had time later. I want to know how paleo Micology where I How do you find fungi, but we don't have time for that right now. But if we can come back to that, that's mind blowing.

Unknown Speaker 1:48

Yeah, we can.

Craig Macmillan 1:49

Go ahead.

Paul Schreiner 1:50

Yeah. So one thing I should say I think that's helpful is there's more than one kind of mycorrhizal fungi group, basically, right? The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are this older group, or they evolved a very long time ago, and there's been a long period of coevolution with plants. And what's happened is the arbuscular mycorrhiza, which is the kind that grapevines form. Most of our crop plants also form arbuscular mycorrhizal that mycorrhizal group can no longer grow or complete their lifecycle by themselves on their own, they require a host plant to get carbon to survive, there's a whole bunch of other kinds of mycorrhizal fungi. The most important besides the arbuscular would be what we typically call Ecto mycorrhizal fungi and the Ecto are typically on forest trees, especially in temperate and boreal regions. Interestingly enough, a lot of the trees in the tropics are am or arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So, it is important to just think about that, because some people, when they hear Mycorrhizal, they automatically assume one or the other Ecto or am or arbuscular. It's even far more complicated than that, because there's like five or six other types of mycorrhizal fungi that different plant groups associate with. However, the mycorrhizal fungi that I studied the arbuscular type are the most prevalent, they're the oldest. And you know, it's kind of an interesting thing, science wise that, based on our best information, they evolved, the whole world was one big continent, right? That's when they really radiated and evolved rapidly, I can get a sequence out of grapefruits. That's a mycorrhizal arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus. And it'll match 100% to a sequence in Europe somewhere, or in South America somewhere on any other crops. And, you know, so that's kind of an interesting thing.

Craig Macmillan 3:39

That's a question. And so if we have that kind of similarity in different parts of the world, does that make the research that's done either in on vines in another continent? Or on a different crop? Does that is that useful for understanding how these things work in advance?

Paul Schreiner 3:56

Certainly, yeah. Especially in the last, I'd say 20 years, because we've developed molecular tools to really delve into evolutionary questions and DNA, those kinds of things. Were starting to separate that group of fungi with a finer tooth comb, if you will, right. In a very broad sense, there was this massive radiation during Pangea, and then all the continents separated, a lot of that genetic material is very, very similar. However, there is still evolution going on. It's just you have to look harder for it. And you have to do whole genomes. That's not something that I do. I'm much more on the practical side of agriculture. But I tried to stay in tune with all that. This group of fungi traditionally were thought to be asexual. Now, we think there might be some sort of sexual phase, but it's unclear and not clearly demonstrated yet. We're learning more all the time. But it's also a slow, kind of a slow process. Their interest intractable to study this group of fungi a little bit because they do rely on a host plant to complete their lifecycle. So like, we can't culture them and put them in a lab. So were grown on petri dishes, you know, that kind of thing. They have to be grown with a plant. So we've developed ways to do that. But it does present challenges.

Craig Macmillan 5:10

Yeah, how do you do that.

Paul Schreiner 5:11

And this is really important for this group of fungi. From a practical sense, you have to grow them on a plant companies that produce mycorrhizal inoculum have this kind of fungi, the arbuscular type, they are growing them on plants. Typically, they're doing that in a some kind of either soil or soilless mix, and producing that in a greenhouse. And what like when I grow cultures of these fungi, we grow them on plants. One of the challenges with this group of fungi that relates to all this is that they're also ubiquitous around the globe, pretty much anywhere you have plants, these fungi are are there, the diversity is different in different places, of course, and there probably are some specialists, you know, groups, for example, that might be in more tropical climates versus more boreal climates. But I mean, we're still just beginning to understand that kind of information with this group of fungi. You asked also, what role do they do in terms of soil ecology or plant ecology? There's no question. The biggest role that this fungi plays is in helping plants obtain phosphorus. There is evidence of uptake of other nutrients, particularly those nutrients that are more immobile in soil. And that's why phosphorus is one in particular, but Potassium is another nutrient that's not super immobile in soil, they help take up potassium, they also help take up copper, zinc, I'd say those four are probably the top. However, they also play a role in nitrogen uptake in some plants. You know, we have addressed this in grapes with my former student, Tian Tian, who's now a farm advisor in Southern California working on table grapes, part of her thesis work was looking at the nitrogen impact on mycorrhizae, and how they help with nitrogen uptake. And we're continuing that work to some degree now with my new student. So far, we've not been able to show that the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are helping grapevines take up nitrogen. However, lack of evidence doesn't mean it can't happen. Other groups have shown in other plant systems that they do help the plants take up nitrogen. But still even even though that's true, without question, Phosphorus is the main thing that this group of fungi helps plants obtain from soil, you know, and phosphorus is a really critical thing, because yeah, phosphorus reserves are running out, you know, we've been mining basically guano, right? I mean, that's our main source of phosphorus all around the world. I just read an article it was in the New Yorker the other day, about phosphorus. I'm glad it's, you know, being highlighted again, because, you know, some people think 20 years from now, we're going to be out of phosphorus.

Craig Macmillan 7:40

I think so.

Paul Schreiner 7:41

And we're going to be in a world of hurt. Yeah. So it's hard to know for sure. Other people estimate we've got hundreds of years, but I don't know how good these estimates are. But helping plants get phosphorus means we don't need as much phosphorus to apply as a fertilizer. This is becoming an issue for basically the whole globe and human production. Yeah, their biggest role is Phosphorus, they also probably help do other things in plants, which I can kind of go down a list if you want.

Craig Macmillan 8:07

Well, before we do that, I do want to do that. Because I think that that's crucial because a number of ideas have come up and some I think are probably accurate. Some I think are not, but I don't know, AMF, it's a parasite or it's a symbiotic organism?

Paul Schreiner 8:21

Yeah there symbionts.

Craig Macmillan 8:23

Okay, there's symbionts. Now, how does the plant and the fungi interact? Are there things that go into the root or the root is coded by something? Or how does that work?

Paul Schreiner 8:34

Yeah, so that's, it's a pretty interesting process. If you start at the very beginning of a naked root, let's say, you know, a root does not colonize this starting to grow in soil. It sends out signals that the fungus consents, or the fungi, you know, there's more than one fungus in this group. Some of those signals, we already know what those are, like Striga lactones are one for example, you know, complicated term, but it's just a particular group of compounds plants make, the fungi can sense that. And they can grow towards the root, you know, the hyphy of the fungus, when it touches the root or makes contact with the root, it forms what's called an apex thorium, and then it makes a penetration peg and can basically punches through the wall of the root. This is the same way that fungal pathogens, you know, who are bad fungi, let's say right, they also use the same kind of mechanism. And typically when that's happening, you know, there's enzymes involved, bits of the cell wall of the plant and or some of its cuticle get kind of chewed up by enzymes and it releases certain compounds and then the plant can say, Oh, I know this one's a bad guy, or sometimes a plant is producing enzymes, for example, kinase that's trying to degrade the fungus itself and then you release certain other signal compounds, so the plant can sense that and in certain pathogens. We know that a very specific metabolite can be sensed by the plant and it stimulates the plant to respond in a defense response with the mycorrhizal fungi. The defense response is repressed.

Craig Macmillan 10:00

Okay, oh.

Paul Schreiner 10:01

Yeah, and so part of that is probably the kinds of chemicals that the and fungi have that are being released, you know, through these various enzymatic interactions have yet to be recognized by the plant as as the bad guy. Anyway, that's, that's maybe getting a little too into the weeds. But yeah, it all starts in the same way like a pathogen trying to get in or even, you know, there's a group of parasitic plants that form these things called hostaria, that attack roots of other plants. Same kind of process.

Craig Macmillan 10:31

It sounds to me like there's an enzymatic reaction, and then also a signaling reaction, which would probably be some kind of a protein, I would guess it's complicated, or it's a feedback thing in that, oh, I've been poked, oh, I'm gonna do this, Hey, wait a minute, this is okay. And then they kind of settles into a balance, I guess. Is that fair to say?

Paul Schreiner 10:49

Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. It's really complicated. And I mean, we only are beginning to understand the way they communicate. You know, there's a whole new class of compounds called effector proteins, which are secreted by different organisms and soil plant can recognize a lot of those, it crosses many things like even goes to nematodes, right? Like this is all kind of newer stuff that we're learning. But the bottom line is, the am fungi get in because they don't stimulate a defense response in the plant. And that's because there's been at least 500 million years of coevolution the plant knows these guys are okay, these are the good guys. Once they're inside, they grow throughout the cortex of fine roots. And then they form these things called arbuscules. And that's where they get their name. So the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi form arbuscles, our bus skills are basically like a little tree, if you can see a picture of it, it looks like a little tree inside a root cortical cell. It's just basically a way that both the fungus and the plant increase their surface area contact by like, a huge amount, you know, like, like, imagine what a tree looks like above ground, you know, like, especially without the leaves on the wintertime is a great time. That's exactly what it arbuscular Looks like in miniature inside a root cortical cell, the plant membrane grows all the way around that there's all kinds of activity that arbuscule cell is super active, because there's a lot of metabolic things happening. And that's where the plant and the fungus are exchanging nutrients,

Craig Macmillan 12:17

then then exchange is cell wall to cell wall. It's not puncturing into a cell, or is it punching into? Oh, heck, what's the word I'm looking for, a pipeline?

Paul Schreiner 12:28

No, the and fungi don't get into the vascular tissues of the plant, they actually colonize these cortical cells, they're sort of like, if you think about leaves, leaves the cells, we think about most of the mesophyll, or the spongy mesophyll. They're the ones that are doing photosynthesis, right? In the root cells that are most active in the fine roots are the cortical cells. That's where most of the activity is happening. So the fungi colonize there, they form these arbusculs which is, I mean, they're, they're amazing structures, they're very cool. They're short lived, like, a lot of times in arbuscular, will form, develop, and then degrade within, say, a week to 10 day period, you know, so it's like a fairly rapid turnover during that you increase the surface contact between the two organisms, but there's always still a membrane on the fungal side and a membrane on the plant side that keeps those two organisms separate, you know, their cytoplasm doesn't mix. You know, that would be weird, kind of, you know, would be weird. Yeah, we just don't see that in biology, you know, they really have much greater metabolic activity in those arbuscular cells. So what happens is, the fungus is giving phosphorus to the plant in this process, and other nutrients. And then in exchange, the plant is giving the fungus sugars. And we now know also fatty acids. Yeah, that's been a recent discovery in the last two decades. Anyway, I can't remember exactly when it came out. We now know because of genome sequencing efforts, that this group of fungi lack the ability to make fatty acids, they actually get those from the plant as well.

Craig Macmillan 14:01

So we've got the arbuscules on the roots. That's kind of the structure, we've got the peg in there. Now what's going on away from the roots? Are these big long, multi celled single identifiable organisms, or is it kind of a community or what what's going on?

Paul Schreiner 14:19

There are different fungi. Okay, so there's multiple species, a single root can have many species of fungi inside it. However, those species also probably mark out some territory. This part is still a little bit unclear because it's really hard to pinpoint this stuff. Just as an example, our research vineyard here at Oregon State University that I work on, even though I'm ARS I also work in in part of OSU, our research vineyard. I think we found 19 Different mycorrhizal fungi. colonizing the groups, the roots of the grape vines, you know, there's a fair number, how they actually interact on a very tiny scale like within an individual single individual root is it's hard to know for sure, that's again Getting off into the weeds a bit.

Craig Macmillan 15:01

Not so much because I'm going somewhere with this.

Paul Schreiner 15:04

I want to get back to your question though about what's happening outside because that's really critical. Yeah, what's happening inside is we have these aruscules and hyphae growing inside the root, and it can be, it can be very intense, especially in Grapes. Grapes are a super host, in my view, they really love mycorrhiza they get heavily colonized. But then on the outside out in the soil, the naked hyphae, if you will, of the mycorrhizal fungi are exploring the soil. And that external phase we call extra radical hyphae, it actually is physiologically different than what's on the inside of the root. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but basically, the inside part has a different function than the outside part. And so the inside part is trying to get carbon from the plant give the plant phosphorus and other nutrients, the outside part is mining the soil for that phosphorus, exploring the soil, it also probably exudes a significant amount of its carbon into the soil and helps the soil microbial community get a carbon source as well. And these fungi seem to play a critical role in helping soil aggregate and or resist erosion, basically, I mean, the evidence of this is, is pretty clear. But we also know that roots do the same function, especially root hairs, you know, so one way to think about these fungi is they're, they're sort of like root hairs. Except they're even finer, you know, their job is to connect root to the soil and to the soil, water and nutrient supply

Craig Macmillan 16:30

Two spatial questions. One, when they say they explore space, how deep do we find an organism? Do we find a fungus that's connected to a to a vine or plant, right? So how far down is it going? And then how far out in lateral space is it going?

Paul Schreiner 16:44

People have studied this by using artificial system where we can put a screen for example, like we can grow a plant in a greenhouse in soil, have it be colonized by microbes and fungi, and then put a screen in place that the roots cannot cross. But the fungi can, you know, something below like, or I don't know, somewhere in the ballpark of 40 micron diameter screen, so very fine screen like a silk screen, the hyphae can grow in there. So like people have shown they can grow 15 or 20 centimetres away, no problem, you know, significant distance when you're talking about soil as far as how deep they go in soil, that varies a lot with the rooting depth of whatever the plant of interest is, or, you know, the ecosystem, we tend to see greater colonization in the, in the surface soil, which just fits everything else that happens in the surface soil, right? I mean, that's where more of the water and nutrients are being turned over. It's also you know, where the soil environment is more favorable to life, right, because of this whole soil structure, idea and porosity, allowing oxygen to get into the soil in a vineyard. Particularly, you know, we always talk about vineyards and how the roots go all the way to China kind of thing, right?

Craig Macmillan 17:52

Until you hit clay or limestone.

Paul Schreiner 17:54

Sometimes roots can go really far. I mean, 30 meters I've seen reported and get into, you know, basically rock, right? There's not too much mycorrhizal fungi down where we're there in rock, we did the study, again, it was at the research vineyard. And when you get into what is known as the sea horizon, in the soil, which we would typically think of as the subsoil, it's where it's more compact, there's less porosity, and it's pretty dense, right? And it's more like clay, colonization drops off a lot, you know, we might have 90% of roots are colonized in the topsoil. But in the subsoil might be 30%. That's because many things, one, the environment is just not suitable for life in general, at that depth, because it's compacted, there's less oxygen, it's a different environment.

Craig Macmillan 18:37

And again, you've mentioned AMF need more than just a plant root, they need to be out in the environment, there needs to be oxygen, there needs to be water, there needs to be other, there needs to be a favorable environment for life period. Right now, one thing we've talked about water holding. In other interviews, we've talked about water holding capacity improves in fields that have a higher or more successful AMF population, and that you talked about aggregates, it's part of that picture. We've talked about nutrient movement particular phosphorus, one of the things that I've heard people just kind of say colloquially is that if you have a meaningful mix, whatever the popular population, ecosystem involving AMF, it's going to lead to greater stability in the vine, and give the vine an ability to tolerate drought stress a little bit better. Are you finding those things? Are those things true? Even if it's kind of anecdotal? I mean, you're scientist, so you don't like anecdotal probably. But

Paul Schreiner 19:33

Yeah, so that's, you know, that's the interesting world of science in my world. I need to have evidence for what I say, especially, especially when it comes to publishing scientific papers, right?

Craig Macmillan 19:43

Well, of course, yeah.

Paul Schreiner 19:44

But then there's also opinion, you know, sometimes you can't show things in science. I mean, science isn't perfect, right? Mistakes happen, and some things are just more intractable and difficult to show, however, okay, on a broad scale, there's pretty good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi helped Plants tolerate drought stress better than non mycorrhizal plants when you know when they've been compared. So that has certainly a long term consequence that you might think would eventually relate to stability in some way.

Craig Macmillan 20:16

So one of the reasons that I asked that is science, Applied Science, especially applied Agricultural Science often is moved by growers noticing something or having an image in their head about how something works. And then folks like you come in and say, Okay, well, let's find out. Another thing that I've heard people mentioned that I don't know is true or not, is do AMF actually move water into the plant? We know that they transport minerals, or they actually move water into the plant?

Paul Schreiner 20:42

Yeah, that's a great question. The answer to that question at this point in time is, they don't move water in a way that we would like to think of it, they're not acting like a pipe, because their own cytoplasm is a, you know, it's a vital part of them, it's just like us, you know, like the inside of ourselves, we're not just gonna give that away, people used to think of them like, Oh, they're just pipes out there, and the water just flows right through them into the plant. Well, that's impossible, that just can't happen. What does happen potentially, is water moves on the external surface of the hyphae. Because similar to a plant root, they exude some carbon, they have some structure makes connection to soil water in the pores of soil. And so in theory, because these fungi are much finer diameter, let's say 50 to 100 times smaller in diameter than a root is, you know, fine root of a plant so they can get into smaller pores inside the soil and get access to soil water that the root may not be able to get access to. On top of that, there's potential especially because they help aggregate soil and help improve soil structure, they may actually in the long run, improve soil water holding capacity, because they're adding to that long term carbon storage of the soil. It's really well known that as you add organic matter to soil, you improve the water holding capacity of soil. The am fungi do do that. I mean, partly it's this bit of carbon that they exude into the soil rhizosphere itself or the we call it the micro rhizosphere. Even their turnover. So when they die, or when they're eaten by something else, they're also then contributing to that pool of soil carbon, and the more old and complex that carbon is, probably the more it's tends to be tied to soil, water and small pores. Yes, they do help, we can show that they help plants take up a little bit more water, but it's not a big deal. You know, it's kind of like let's say the plant on a given day use 10 liters of water and you let the plant go to the wilt point. Maybe the mycorrhizal plant got another 10 mils of water out of 10 liters, you know, it's not a huge amount.

Craig Macmillan 22:55

They're not the pipeline, but they are changing the soil environment such that the water holding capacity is changing. And that makes it more water for the mines to pick up. So it's not that there is a pipeline through the mycorrhizal fungi but that it's changing the environment in a way that makes it more likely that the water will be held and that the mind then has it available.

Paul Schreiner 23:12

Right and that that effect is small, it's hard to show because it's very small. The other thing that they probably help with the plants is that as soil dries, nutrients are harder to get. And particularly those nutrients that are more immobile and soil like phosphorus, a big part of why we see improved drought tolerance in a mycorrhizal plant is because they are accessing soil phosphorus better than a non mycorrhizal plant can and that's contributing to the overall drought tolerance of that plant. So some of our effects that we see are an indirect effect of improved phosphorus nutrition that goes across to any of the other functions that AMS might help plants do. Like another big category that I feel I should mention is there's good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi help plants resist or become more tolerant to other pathogens in the soil. So the bad guys or even nematodes, a lot of work has been done on this, you know, the experiments run the gamut, like they're there all over the place, because, you know, we're talking about really complex things. One of the things that we know, is that just improving the overall phosphorus nutrition of the plant and or other nutrients, sometimes it's, it might be another new nutrient that's limiting that gets you added tolerance to to any of these other effects, right? Whether it's drought, whether it's a root pathogen, even like insect feeding on above ground parts of the plant, you know, I mean, if you're in a better nutritional state, you're going to be better able to tolerate a lot of things. A lot of what happens with AMF is linked to their role in phosphorus, you know, so going back to this phosphorus story, some of my colleagues get mad at me because I they think I'm too opinionated about phosphorus. But I mean

Craig Macmillan 24:59

You You're having beers with people. And they're like, Paul, when you get off the phosphorous thing?

Paul Schreiner 25:05

Yeah, they're like, come on, Paul, you know, they play a role in nitrogen too.

Craig Macmillan 25:10

Okay, so we're in at a time with a couple of things I just absolutely, positively have to hit on if we draw the big old box around this topic, we would say, AMF are beneficial for vineyards. Okay, so what kinds of things can I do as a grower to encourage a AMF and what kinds of things should I not do that might dink the AMF community?

Paul Schreiner 25:29

Very good question. The most important thing probably is to think about AMF, before you plant a vineyard. And so like in some of the materials that I've I've, I've written about and published on, especially for like trade journals and trying to help growers, it's really important in my mind to separate pre plant versus post plant, and at the pre plant stage is really a time you should think about mycorrhizal fungi because that's the time. If they're not there, you've got a problem. But chances are, they're already there. It's also the pretty much the time that you can add mycorrhiza and they're going to do something, you have an opportunity to inoculate vines if you want when they go into the ground. The biggest thing about pre plant is what is the past history of that land, especially the recent couple of years if you've had plants on it, especially if their host plants for mycorrhizal fungi, which almost all of our crop plants are, even if it came out of say, forest land, and then was converted to vineyard. Typically, there's a AMF there because even in the forest, which are dominated by Ecto mycorrhizal trees, for example, here, and in the north, west, for example, there are still understory plants that rely on AMF. And so the AMF are there, normally, you don't have to inoculate. But knowing what the land history is, is very helpful. The worst thing you can do is of course, apply a fumigant, which we are doing much, much less now than we used to. Not that that will will stop entirely. But if you fumigate especially with like in the old days, methyl bromide was the main fumigant used, you'll kill the mycorrhizal fungi. And so you would want to inoculate if you did that. The other thing is if you have a really, really long period of fallow land, and when I say fallow, I mean fallow no weeds, nothing, most of our weed species also support AMF. So I mean, even having weeds on the ground before you plant a vineyard is going to keep the population up. And again, that goes back to the biology, this group of fungi that they can't grow on their own. And so eventually they'll be depleted in soil if there's no plants to keep feeding them. So that kind of relates back to the very beginning of our conversation, which is why this group of fungi is different. So like, basically avoid long fallow plant a cover crop of clover, for example, that's a good one, because Clover is very heavily colonized. It also provides nitrogen, which is good for vines, you know, especially at establishment and avoid fumigants. Once you get to the post plant side of things, I think the most critical things to think about are tillage, and then fertilizer use.

Craig Macmillan 27:56

What happens there?

Paul Schreiner 27:59

With tillage, you breakup the mycorrhizal network that's in the soil. And so like we talked about that external phase, or what we call the extra radical hyphae of this group of fungi, that phase is out in the soil and it actually survives and overwinters even for example, like you know, some of it dies back, but some of it remains if you keep destroying that with tillage. Eventually you reduce the population of AMF, there are a few fungi that seem to be much more tolerant of tillage. And these are some of our favorite lab rat ones, for example. Ones that are tolerant of disturbance have been ones that are most often done well in the laboratory and are easily easy to culture. Again, we're culturing on a plant but still similar kind of thing. So tillage is one thing. The fertilizer issue is I would avoid both high nitrogen and high phosphorus inputs. We have shown in some of my work if you apply phosphorus, for example, to the foliage, which some people like to do, you can reduce mycorrhizal colonization. It's all tied into the whole plant response to these this group of fungi, you know, plants evolved with the fungi, right? It's not just the fungi that were evolving. They know that the main function is phosphorus. So when the plant has high phosphorus status, it down regulates the colonization by this group of fungi. Well, when you get plants phosphorus, especially to the foliage, it sends a signal to the roots, I'm very happy, and it tends to reduce colonization.

Craig Macmillan 29:24

Specifically, how many units of nitrogen are we talking about?

Paul Schreiner 29:28

That gets into tricky territory.

Craig Macmillan 29:30

You know, if I'm putting on a 777 am I am i doing a bad thing?

Paul Schreiner 29:35

Probably not course, it also depends on the rate, you know, I mean, 777 But you're putting out 200 pounds per acre that's

Craig Macmillan 29:42

Yeah, that's why use the term units.

Speaker 2 29:45

Yeah, you know, and the thing about viticulture is we don't need as much nitrogen and as much phosphorus that as we do in other classic farming crops, you know, like the big the big crops corn soybean commodity. Yeah, commodity grapes are super cheap. super efficient at getting nutrients, other work that I do, which is actually more of more of my time spent on nutrition than it is on mycorrhizal fungi. But, you know, we've shown that high nitrogen is not necessarily a good idea in the vineyard, right. And most people know that. And almost intuitively, you don't want a massive canopy, that shading the fruit.

Craig Macmillan 30:19

In a vineyard, if I'm putting on nitrogen at a replacement rate, so I'm looking at how many pounds per acre I took out, I'm guessing and how many pounds per ton that relates to taking in cycling from canes and leaves that fall on the ground and go into the soil. You know, most vineyards you're looking at not a lot. So I've looked at some organic systems that are putting in, you know, two pounds per acre, the highest I think I've ever seen was 25 pounds per acre. Eight is a pretty good number kind of on average total. It sounds to me like these replacement level rates, not the high rate, but the replacement level rates where we're, we purposely are trying not to get a bigger canopy, we're not trying to bump a vine. That sounds like those are fine.

Paul Schreiner 30:58

I think so we've done work here, see, it was in Chardonnay, and also Pinot Noir. And we were putting out 20 and 40 pounds of N per acre. These are not high rates in in my view, especially when we look at agriculture as a whole right, we can see a little bit of a depression in mycorrhizal colonization, when we apply, say 40 pounds, or 60 pounds of nitrogen per acre, we don't wipe it out entirely, you know, the vines also can recover. The other thing is, the kind of nitrogen you put out may play a role as well. More soluble classic conventional fertilizers that have more soluble N and especially more soluble P will probably have a more negative impact. If you're putting out more organic sources of those fertilizers, because they're more complex, you know, they don't cause as quick of a response in the plant. And it does seem that that does not have as a negative impact on AMF, as the more soluble forms.

Craig Macmillan 31:58

There we go. Now we're out of time, unfortunately, this could go on forever, you and I should get together sometime and just hang out talk about phosphorus all you want. What is one piece of advice that you would give to grape growers related to this topic, especially if they want to increase or maintain in AMF population in their vineyard?

Paul Schreiner 32:17

You know, the most important thing is to be conservative with inputs. I think that's probably the the key thing conservative with both water inputs and nitrogen inputs and phosphorus inputs. You know, the role of fungicides, so far does not really appear to be a big deal. And again, we don't have time to go into all that. But the evidence that we've collected so far suggests that you know our fungicide spray programs, for example, which we're talking about controlling things in the canopy, I'm not seeing a clear effect on microns of fungi because of that. If you overwater over fertilize. That's when you're going to do damage to Microsoft fungi, you know that that's clear. And then the other piece of advice is think about it pre plant, because that's the time you can actually do something put a cover crop in prior to planting the vineyard and I bet 99% of the time, the mycorrhizal population that's there will be sufficient to colonize the vine roots and be healthy goes back to just very briefly the fact that I consider grape vines, a very, very receptive host for mycorrhizal fungi. I've looked at other crop plants, including other woody perennials, and grape vines are so heavily colonized. It's it's truly amazing.

Craig Macmillan 33:28

That is cool. Where can people find out more about you? And or more about this topic? You mentioned research that's been published recently on some of these topics. Where can we find you?

Paul Schreiner 33:39

So the easy way to find me is type my name Paul Schreiner. And grapevine will be in the title in the show notes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you just put my name and grapevine nutrition, or grapevine and AMS, I should pop up as the first thing on Google. But you can also just email me [email protected]. And I'm happy to provide for those that are more interested in getting into the weeds. I can provide you some lists of good references and whatnot. So I'm happy to do that.

Craig Macmillan 34:05

That's fantastic. My guest today has been Paul Shriner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS. He's based in Corvallis, Oregon. This has been really fun for me. I hope it's fun for our listeners, too. This is such a hot topic. And so thank you very much for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Paul,

Unknown Speaker 34:22

Thank you so much, Craig. It was great having this conversation

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

It's here! The tool that you need to tell your Sustainable Story.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this week's Marketing Tip we are launching the brand new, Our Sustainable Story series. Research shows that the demand for sustainable products keeps growing so we developed this series just for you! By following along with this series, you will be able to incorporate your message of sustainability into your whole business. Here is how to start telling your customers how you take care of the people and the planet today.

Get Started

1. Download the "Our Sustainable Story" fillable PDF (print version and electronic filling version)
2. Complete the PDF with your unique stories alongside your whole team (viticulturist, winemaker, tasting room, sales, marketing).
3. Share your stories in all of your marketing channels (we're here to help – see below!)

Want an example? Read how Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet by embodying the 7 values of SIP Certified.

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Throughout the rest of the year, we will share easy-to-implement training, branding, and sales strategies that will positively impact your business. Plus, we will share SIP Certified members' Sustainable Stories to further inspire you.

Stay tuned, here is what's coming up:

• Continuous onboarding: a training strategy.
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References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
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• Our Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print
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• Vineyard Team

Vineyard farmers manage numerous pests but the invasive species can be some of the most troublesome. Kyle McAbee, President of McAbee Ag Consulting, PCA and CCA sustainability specialist shares what growers need to know to manage pests currently in their area, like Vine Mealybug, and prepare for ones that could come in the future, like Spotted Lantern Fly. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is critical. Sustainable and conventional growers should rotate chemistries, scout to track location, time of year, and mating events, look at how other areas manage the pest, control host species, and be ready to do something about the issue. Most importantly, growers should talk with their Ag Commissioner, Farm Advisor, and each other.

References:

• 26: Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses
• 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses
• 96: Spotted Lanternfly - Threat to California
• Kyle McAbee email
• McAbee Ag Consulting FaceBook page
• Penn State Extension Spotted Lanternfly
• StopSLF.org
• UC IPM: Vine Mealybug

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Transcript

Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting. He is a licensed pest control advisor, and certified crop advisor with a certification in sustainability specialization. And we're going to talk about pests. Thanks for being thanks for being on podcast Kyle.

Kyle McAbee 0:18

Yeah, good to be with you Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:20

So you and I were just chatting. And I also been thinking about this a lot recently. And one of the big challenges for sustainability in agriculture in general was pest management, obviously. And I've been looking back into the past and kind of watching things. And I've been wondering if you see something similar to this, have you seen changes in pest pressure, different kinds of pressure, particular pest in different regions? In the last seven or eight years?

Kyle McAbee 0:46

Yes, absolutely. Definitely seen, you know, fluctuations in pest pressure, with certain pests, likely an average overtime average, slow increase, but that said, you know, it's it's year to year, some years, you know, we're looking for certain pests in places that we've seen them for years in and years out and can't find them. I'll give you an example. Last year, the mite population, in particular Paso Robles, but I think in a wider area, you know, I speak with a lot of different PCAs in the local industry, and we're all scratching our heads wondering, you know, hey, we've had Pacific Mite these blocks for the last six, seven years in, we can't find one this year. It just depends on the season and what pest we're talking about, of course, too.

Craig Macmillan 1:29

And that's a really interesting one to me, because that suggests that biological control is working, right? Because you're not treating for mites unless you're seeing mites. So it's not a question of a prophylactic set of sprays, necessarily, they've knocked on the population, one would think, or maybe it's some kind of changing climate reason.

Kyle McAbee 1:48

When we're looking at any of these populations, whether it be pest or whether it be a beneficial insect. It is absolutely environmentally based, whether, you know, we had a warm winter, and it didn't knock back the overwintering populations as normal, or we had an extremely cold winter, which, you know, could further give us some over over winter kill on the overwintering populations, depending on what pest we're talking about, obviously, but yeah, environmental chemicals that are being used, and well, not even chemicals. You know, of course, cultural practices, you know, what folks are doing for dust control for mites? For example, you know, there's just so many factors. But yes, I do think environment and warm winters, and obviously, warm spring and summer have played a big part in increased pest pressure, and particularly mealybug.

Craig Macmillan 2:34

Yeah, so with mites, we just talked about a decline. And when we're talking about vine mealybug, I've been hearing the same thing. And it seemed like, well, back in the 90s, when it showed up, it was just a disaster. I mean, it was really, really bad, you know, and it's never gonna go away. But then things seem like they kind of settled down. I mean, he still had to deal with it. But it wasn't the kind of incredible devastation that we saw in the late 90s. Now you're seeing these things start to these populations and the damage start to come back up, right?

Kyle McAbee 3:02

Yes, I do believe that, you know, as an industry, overall, we've definitely seen an increase in the last, I guess, eight harvests or so that have been in Paso Robles. And not just Paos Robles, you know, kind of up and down the central coast. And yeah, yeah, absolutely seen seen situations where, you know, we've been in control of vine mealybug in certain areas, you know, our hotspots, if you will, is that all of a sudden, we've kind of lost control lost a grip a little bit, or, you know, they're starting to win a little bit more than they were before. Additionally, and more importantly, to me, is we've got blocks and vineyards, that historically, you know, we've been rigorously scouting them season in and season out. And all of a sudden, we're finding mealy bugs, and I'm, and, you know, we'll, you know, blocks that we've trapped, for years just preempt, you know, preventatively to monitor the population that way as well. All of a sudden, we start getting a, you know, a couple counts here, and a couple of counts there. And so we start paying closer attention. And, you know, couple year two, year three after that, then we, you know, all of a sudden, hey, we found some vines with mealybug, on Vine mealybug. And knowing that, you know, had not had that problem in those blocks previously. So new populations moving into new blocks.

Craig Macmillan 4:17

From what I understand we're finding vi mealybug in areas where we haven't had it before. We're seeing increases in the counts, populations are there. Do you have some ideas about why that might be?

Kyle McAbee 4:29

Two different things going on here? We're gonna start with areas blocks of vineyards that we know we've had hotspots of vine mealybug we've been watching them and fighting them for years, maybe a decade for some folks maybe longer for others in those areas. You know, we've had successful years weather that we've had help from Mother Nature and those years in addition to our, you know, IPM programs, whatever it may be, but I do know that over time in the last, you know, five years call it I've definitely had some areas where I've seen Those spots increase, and I've started to scratch my head. And despite the fact that I rotate chemicals, and, you know, IRAC groups and all that, and our cultural practices, I do see, you know, some loss of control in those areas and increase in population and maybe, you know, even growth, you know, outward into the vineyard, you know, I think that, in particular has a lot to do part just in part, but a lot of it is that has got to do with maybe some chemical resistance, some some product resistance, you know, in particular, the neonic, the IRAC 4A's have been so widely used year in and year out, over and over, I've been very suspicious of resistance to those, I don't lean just on those, but I've definitely seen areas where we get no control from those products. And so I've done some work with the USDA to look into that, in particularly one vineyard in Monterey County, we, you know, we took samples of the population, and that was an inconclusive test, you know, there's many reasons as to why that didn't, didn't really work out, a lot of it was the protocol in the lab and how they were doing it, but that doesn't change my mind. And the idea that we do have some resistance to, to those products, not just to pick on those, but I think that's where first place to start, if we're going to talk about resistance with my mealybug I think that's a big part of the problem. The other part of that the meaning, you know, hotspots that are have spread, or you know, are getting worse, I think that those vines are getting older, and the, you know, the bark is fluffing, and there's just more protection for them underneath the bark, as opposed to young, young vineyard, you know, so those hotspots, you know, obviously, as you go, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years later, well, those vines are a whole different environment for vine mealybug. And I think that plays a big part into it as well, you get some old grenache or syrah or whatever it may be some of these varietals that that do tend to really multilayers of slough bark, it's just impossible to get any of these chemistries, whether it be organic, or conventional, whatever it may be any of these products in there, and there's just too many places for him to hide, there's got to be some sort of resistance issues, at least that's my opinion, I think others agree. But there's also you know, environmental factors, not just the weather, but you know, in the more of a micro environment for these insects. So you know, these these areas that we've had these populations that we've monitored, that we've been fighting for years, and been successful all the sudden, you know, you're seeing lack of control, and you're having a hard time with even new products, and new chemistries, and additional rotation and stuff. And I think that's got a lot to do with, you know, those vines have changed in the you know, those five or 10 years, you know, they've gotten older and a big part of, as we all know, are most you know, most folks know, and older vines got, you know, much more complex bark system on the trunks and cordons, multi layers, much more area for these these insects to hide under the bark and where we can't make contact with them. And I think that's a big part of it that I know a lot of folks have talked about, and we're all aware of and there's just, you know, what do you do? Right, but I think that's a big part of why these hotspots have have gotten worse, personally, it's coverage at that point, right? It's it's simply coverage.

Craig Macmillan 8:20

In the world of fungicides we faced this for a long time. And the question then is they go Okay, now what do I do? Where do I go from here? I've become dependent on certain materials? Now I'm trying different things. I'm still like in control software chemistries, we're talking about organophosphates, or anything. What's your strategy? What do you think? And where are you going to go in the future with this?

Kyle McAbee 8:39

I'm not the only one doing this. But we in our problem areas, we rotate our chemistries a lot, but that's not all we do. A big part of this is scouting, obviously, you know, we we have to stay on top of it and monitoring any spread or new hotspots. So that's a big one. Another huge part. I mean, okay, so you've identified where they're at, well, what do you do? Well, trapping is a huge part of this cultural practice, if you will, in monitoring not just where they're at, and what they're doing, but mating events and trying to attack these things from the inside out, in addition to chemical programs that are, you know, we all use a lot of the same products, which is kind of why I touched on potential for resistance, but trapping and reacting accordingly. So looking at those meaning events, if you're going to trap, you better be willing to do something about it. Okay, we've got a count of 50 in this trap. Well, the clock is ticking. You know, that mating event is happening. Now. You don't have seven days, you don't have 14 days, you need to be able to get out there now. And if you're using floatable meeting disruptors, you've got to be willing to go out there and spray that at least that area, you don't have to spray the whole vineyard but you know, depending on the size of the property, reacting to it accordingly. The other option, you know, some of these mating disruption companies, they have the hangers and those last long So you can, you know, you've got a hotspot in an area. And as soon as you get that first flight, you know, hang those things out there in the spring, you'll likely, you know, disrupt a couple mating events at that point, you know, I believe they call for a lot of those that last, you know, 90 days or so depending on the weather. I know for a fact they're working on ones that their prototypes at this point, but they are supposed to last quite a bit longer than that. So I mean, we're talking a big chunk of our season at that point, and it goes to the organic versus conventional, right. So the flowable is not organic, certified, the cards are, well, just because you're conventional, doesn't mean you don't use the cards, I think the cards are a big part of that, you know, that meeting disruption process. So if you're conventional, I think, you know, don't look away from the cards just because they're organic. I mean, there's a lot of benefits to those things.

Craig Macmillan 10:47

Absolutely. And I think I've seen that in powdery mildew management to where folks that are not certified organic are putting a lot of Omri approved products in their in their rotation, which is interesting, because that was so that was certainly not the case back in the day. Okay. So this is a great example where we had an invasive pest, we've been trying to figure out what to do now we're trying new things, and it's gonna be constant, right. But what about new invasive pests? There's a couple of things that are out there that I think it's only a matter of time before they show up here in California, or Washington or Oregon or the other direction in your mind, because you're scouting really carefully. You're looking for stuff, all kinds of things. So you obviously you're scouting for pests that you know, but I'm guessing that you're scouting for insects, you don't know, what do you do? What would you recommend as a game plan? If I find something that's new, I don't want to get a toehold.

Kyle McAbee 11:39

Oh, yeah. Well, number one, if it's a new sighting of an invasive species, notifying the Ag Commissioner letting the you know making sure that USDA gets involved and making them aware of it, because a big part of it is it's a big picture. Program. So that's, that's number one. If you're one of the first people to find it, or if it's new to your area, if it's in your area, and it's new to your property or your your vineyard or whatever it may be looking at the States or the country, or countries that that that pest has come from and doing research and looking at what they've done looking at what they're doing there. Is there anything that they've done that is successful to mitigate that pest or deal with it? I think the spotted lantern fly is a good example. I don't think anybody knows exactly what to do with that. With that pest yet. I've obviously I don't have any direct connection with spotted lantern fly being you know, a PCA in California, however, I have done research on it, knowing that it unfortunately isn't inevitably likely to come to California, it's an invasive species from China, it was likely brought in over, you know, cargo ships and things like that. They're, they're very good movers, they lay their egg masses on semi trucks and, you know, see trains and just vehicles and they they can travel across the country that way. That's why I feel inevitably will likely be seeing some of this, you know, in the news or something. In the United States My understanding is it's you know, mostly focused on the East Coast. That's where it came in. I think Pennsylvania might have been first one I know New Jersey and Virginia, I think West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, I think maybe even a couple others have had this issue. And it's a very, it's a very big problem. Not just for the vineyard, it is a problem for the vineyards. But it's a nuisance as well just you know, across communities. And if you have a tasting room next year, your vineyard they pretty good fliers, they're large insect, they're not afraid of humans so they can kind of swarm and just become an issue. But regarding vineyard pest control, they're very, very good feeders. They're aggressive feeders and they will suck a vine dry in in one one to two years and just take all the life out of the vines and that's that's the concern there. The other concern obviously with as goes most invasive species, we don't really have IPM program for them we don't we don't really know what to do we don't have products registered for them. We don't have spotted lantern fly for example written on really any labels that we can use and also bio control, you know, we that's part of an invasive species as well, but it likely didn't bring their you know, their predators with them, you know, their enemies. So I know they're doing work with the native bio control insects in that are in China. Currently, gypsy moth, I believe is one of them. And I believe they're doing some work with some different fungi and things like that. Yeah, I think one big thing to note that I've read is Tree of Heaven is is you know, obviously an invasive species as well from China. That's its host plant in China. So I know we've got it here. I've got areas I've been fighting, you know, Tree of Heaven for a while. So one of the biggest things other than looking for this insect is once it comes here, even now making sure you're controlling that Tree of Heaven, get rid of that stuff and not an easy one to take care of. But that's that's a big part of it, too.

Craig Macmillan 14:52

I live in the city of Paso Robles, and there's a little patch of it like right on the city limit on buying Street. It's spreading come into town. Like it's grown. It's grown up through sidewalks and stuff. And you know, as the biology pages look at, and you're like, oh my god, like, this is just a monster. I'm like, what are you gonna? Do? You know? But yeah, you're absolutely right as if you can identify those plants ahead of time and work on those. That's a great, great idea. Do you have any kind of plan? Not maybe not even for just spotted lantern fly, but let's say we get a report of something.

Kyle McAbee 15:28

Right? And that's how it's gonna happen. I mean, somebody's gonna find it somewhere. And then we're all gonna go, oh, man, what do we do? This is already part of my work anyway, is getting rid of the Tree of Heaven, trying to minimize any reason for that particular pest or other pests? You know, you got you just got to look at their hosts, I mean, their host plants, their host environment, where did they, you know, not just spotted lantern fly, but you know, other invasive species that we're looking at that are making their way into this country? And in figuring out what is their biology? What is their host environment or or plant or whatever it may be? If it it has shown up in other areas, you know, where did it come in, look at what the folks in, you know, country or other area that this invasive pest has come from? What do they do? What what products are they using? And what have they done to control it? Right? Maybe they haven't maybe it's such an aggressive problem. They haven't done it. I think number one, obviously is looking for it. For example, we get a report of spotted lantern fly, like you said in in Napa, or somewhere in California, then okay, well, it's probably here somewhere, just training your folks training your employees, you know, making sure your PCA and his his or her scouts are looking for these pests is important. And it found reporting it you know, not just to not just to the customer, you know, not just to the grower, it needs to be known on a state level or county level, you know, contacting the Ag Commissioner and asking them where, you know, what do we do with this information? Somebody needs to know about it, and making sure the USDA is aware of it. And in that way we they can kind of start tracking, you know, whatever insect it may be. But yeah, on a on a more micro level on on your own operation, looking at what products may be available to try to find it once you have it, looking at what the what they're doing and other maybe other states that have been fighting it for a while, what have they been successful with? And contacting, you know, farm advisors and talking to them about it, you know, Hey, have you guys figured out in the bio control? That's always a tough one. It's not just as simple as Okay, well, lantern fly in China, their main, you know, arch nemesis is the Gypsy Moth, well, let's just bring the Gypsy Moth over well, it's not that simple. Because there's, there's a lot of years of studies that have to go into that to make sure you're not gonna cause that insects. But looking at that, I mean, maybe that's already been done on whatever invasive species may come in, maybe that's already been figured out, and we have access to it. Who knows, you know,

Craig Macmillan 17:53

Or maybe we have an organism already here, that's similar enough that it can do something I think in terms of in terms of like predators, definitely, I think that's an option. And maybe we can do some augmentative biological control or something like that. It does sound like one of our best strategies might be to take cultural approaches initially, and just make it an unfriendly place. And then, and then kind of go from there. And like you said, see what other people have done and kind of go from there. I think that's the tricky thing, mealybug, all kinds of things, bugs and virus. We've learned a lot internationally in the last 10 years, which has been great that we've got folks working on this syndrome, variety of places we can learn from what they do, we're kind of running out of time, I want to ask you, though, in terms of sustainable pest control, and this can be fungi, this can be insect can be nematodes, it could be anything, what one piece of advice, or what one take home idea would you give to a grower if they say hey, I want to manage my vineyard in a sustainable fashion? How do I control my pests?

Kyle McAbee 18:55

Sustainability is, you know, very well correlated with IPM touched on cultural practices and things outside of, of chemical control, trapping, you know, looking looking at mating events, again, like you mentioned, making the environment unfriendly for whatever pest it may be, you know, scouting, making sure that you're aware of what is actually happening out there, what pests are out there, where they're at, in making sure something doesn't get out of control before you know it's there. Because it's really hard. Even on a you know, more aggressive, more conventional program, it's hard to reach back and knock down a population, it's much easier to to get them early on. Right? It just depends on what we're talking about when I say cultural control, looking at you know, hey, are there weeds that are causing the problem on the ground? Is it are you creating a secondary host or environment for X pests, right, keeping those things down and, you know, making sure you're not spreading them mechanically looking at you know, on a sustainable program, rotating different groups if you're on a conventional sustainable program if you're you know, if you're going for the organic products only or your organic certified then looking at those different bio insecticides or organic insecticides that are out there and what your options are, and making sure you're talking to people talking to people that have been doing it, talk to various people get multiple opinions. And one thing I've always heard about PCAs is talked to three, and you'll get three different opinions, which is good, though, because then you can kind of dig through it and see what the best options are, maybe use all three different ideas in in a rotational factor, you know, I've always been an advocate of, you know, communication with with each other. And we're all on this together. And, you know, making sure that we're all learning from one another and figuring out what worked for others and what didn't work for him, and so on and so forth.

Craig Macmillan 20:43

Yeah, exactly. And one thing I want to underline with what you just said is, you know, Scout Scout Scout monitor, monitor, monitor, record, record record, and then go back and look at those and look for those trends. And, and then the second thing being cultural, I think that's a really important idea is that if we can modify the environment, we can do a lot of good. And I think mites is a classic example mites and dust, so where can people find out more about you?

Kyle McAbee 21:06

Honestly, the best way to get a hold of me is either email or phone. I, I'm not very present on social media, with my business. I do have a Facebook, it's, you know, McAbee Ag Consulting. But that said, I think the best way to get a hold of me would be either to call me text me or email me, and I can give you that information.

Craig Macmillan 21:25

And we can put that information in the show notes, folks will be able to find you. This has been great. Thanks so much. I guess today it was Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting, and He is a licensed pest control advisor and certified crop advisor with the sustainability specialization. Thanks so much, Kyle. This has really been a joy. I'm really, really glad you were here.

Kyle McAbee 21:45

Yeah, thank you, Craig. Appreciate it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We know our SIP Certified members are generous donors in the community. Last week, we shared the exciting news about the expansion of our Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. In the same spirit of giving back, this week, we want to acknowledge some of the ways SIP Certified brands give back.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Get ready for a feel-good episode about generous brands in the wine industry. And get inspired about ways that you can give back.

Vina Robles' the Arborist

Did you know that planting a tree can be as easy as enjoying a bottle of wine? It can be when you buy a bottle of Vina Robles' the Arborist!

Vina Robles partners with non-profit environmental conservation organizations to plant trees with a portion of the proceeds from every bottle of the Arborist that is sold. Since the program started in the year 2000, nearly 33,000 trees have been planted.

When you purchase a bottle of the Arborist, you are joining them in supporting this great cause.

Two Funds by Talley Vineyards

Talley Vineyards has two charitable funds that benefit SLO County agriculture workers and students of Arroyo Grande High School.

The first to be established by the Talleys was the Fund for Vineyard and Farmworkers, created in 2004. This fund supports the Farm Worker Community in San Luis Obispo County by awarding grants to local nonprofit organizations that serve agriculture workers and their families.

Talley also supports the youth of the community through the Marianne Talley Foundation, named in honor of Brian Talley's sister who passed away in 1993. This is a scholarship fund that supports the children of farm workers who attend Arroyo Grande High School with scholarships to support their pursuit of higher education.

Niner Wine Estate's Buck-a-Bottle

November is Buck-a-Bottle month for Niner Wine Estates. Every year, they donate $1 to a local charity fund for every bottle that is sold in their tasting room and online during the month of November.

Their 2022 fundraiser generously benefited Vineyard Team's Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Niner Wine Estates has been supporting the scholarship for years and has hosted the past few annual Scholarship Recipient Award Ceremonies at the Vineyard Team Member BBQ, where scholarship recipients, their families, and Vineyard Team members get together to enjoy great company, wine, and a meal crafted with fresh ingredients from Chef's Garden.

Thank you, Niner Wine Estates, for helping children of vineyard and winery workers achieve their dreams of higher education through your support of the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship!

Sustainable funding for education opportunities

If you missed our past Marketing Tip Monday, the Vineyard Team's Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship is our way of giving back to the community and contributing to a prosperous future of educated and determined professionals. This funding supports students and their families in achieving their dreams of successful graduation to pursue a professional career. The majority of awardees are first-generation college students, who have more barriers when it comes to attaining higher education.

This isn't designed to be a one-time award. Starting in 2023, we will award two- and four-year scholarships, complete with a graduation bonus to help them launch into the next phase of life. The total will end up being in the range of $6k to $20k per student. We've also invested in a program mentor, Alex Gonzalez, who will be a resource to the students. This upgraded scholarship is possible because the local non-profit, Must! Charities, recognized the importance of this program and has created a matching funds program for us.

You can help the program flourish

To receive the gifted money from Must! Charities, we need to raise matching funds each year. In the true spirit of sustainability, we want to create a program that has long-lasting funds so that we can continue to better the lives of our industry's children for decades.

Use the link in the show notes to make a donation to the program, and share this podcast with those you think could benefit from learning more about the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for links to the scholarship flyers, paycheck inserts, application, to donate, to read stories from our incredible scholars and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Apply for the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship
• Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship
• Fund for Vineyard and Farmworkers – Talley Vineyards
• Scholar Stories
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wine Estates
• SIP Certified
• The Marianne Talley Foundation
• Vina Robles' the Arborist
• Vineyard Team