Sustainable Winegrowing

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Training season is fast approaching. It's time to get your hospitality staff prepared to welcome a range of guests from experienced enthusiasts to first timers.

[00:00:10] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With SIP Certified. We know that your customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you show your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] Most people rarely consider the complex agricultural processes behind their favorite products. Use this opportunity to offer something truly unique insight into what makes your wine sustainable.

[00:00:42] Start by covering the basics of what sustainability is while you get to know your guest. Are they familiar with agriculture? Do they know that there is a relationship between the farm and the larger ecosystem?

[00:00:53] Sustainability means meeting the needs of today while ensuring that future generations successfully meet theirs. We do this by caring for the three Ps. People, planet, and prosperity

[00:01:06] people includes community involvement, charitable donations, continuing education and safety programs.

[00:01:12] Planet includes habitat conservation plans, integrated pest management, cover crops, and responsible irrigation

[00:01:20] prosperity includes sales and marketing plans, budgets, succession plans, and inventory and production records.

[00:01:27] If you're SIP certified, you could explain why your brand is a part of a third party program. Specifically, SIP certified is a certification for sustainable wine growers and winemakers. It uses independent third party auditors to verify the brand's practices and records to ensure that they're meeting strict standards.

[00:01:47] Now it's time to show how sustainability is specifically meaningful to your brand. This will help your guests understand what issues are important to you and what you're doing about them.

[00:01:57] Follow these three simple steps.

[00:01:59] One, download the sustainable story worksheet linked in the show notes.

[00:02:04] Two, talk with your vineyard manager, winemaker or general manager to get an example of each of the seven values, which include social responsibility. Water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving.

[00:02:20] For example, attracting gopher hunting barn owls with barn owl boxes in the vineyard is a great example of safe pest management. And three, pick one value to focus on each month to share a fun story with your guests

[00:02:35] if you want to get inspired. We've been collecting sustainable stories from our SIP certified members for the last three years. You can find all of those linked in the show notes.

[00:02:45] And if you want to go deeper than the sustainable story worksheet, we have a great free online course that will help you learn what sustainability means in the wine industry and how to tell your own unique sustainable story.

[00:02:58] Until next time. This is sustainable wine growing with the Vineyard team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• 2025 SIP Certified Sustainable Stories – get inspired
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story Worksheet
  • Print
  • Electronic

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Meet your vineyard night-shift rodent patrol —barn owls. Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care, shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle, nesting habits, and how to properly install nest boxes (hint: ventilation and road direction matter!). Discover how you can encourage barn owls to thrive on your land—plus, hear how these owls even foster orphaned chicks.

Resources:

• REGISTER: 6/6/25 Tailgate | Bird Abatement and Managing Wildlife in the Vineyard
• 58: Barn Owls
• 84: Falconry Bird Abatement
• 118: Managing Rodent Pests in Vineyards with Integrated Pest Management
• Build Your Own Owl Box
• Cornell Lab All About Birds
• National Wildlife Rehabilitators Association
• Pacific Wildlife Care
• The Barn Owl Box Company
• The Barn Owl Trust (UK)
• UC Davis Raptor Center

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

[00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: Meet your vineyard, night shift Rodent patrol - barn owls. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director

[00:00:18] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP Certified winery. Speaks with Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care.

[00:00:34] Bob shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle nesting habitats, and how to properly install nest boxes, hint, ventilation, and road direction matter.

[00:00:50] Discover how you could encourage barn owls to thrive on your land plus. Here how these owls even foster orphaned chicks.

[00:00:58] If you love this topic and want to learn even more about barn owls, you won't want to miss the June 6th, 2025 tailgate on bird abatement and managing wildlife in the vineyard.

[00:01:09] Hosted at Jackson Family Wines Bar M Vineyard in Los Alamos, California. We'll see a live falconry demonstration and learn the latest barn owl research from California Polytechnic State University, including how changes in vineyard habitat affect foraging behavior. To register, just go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes.

[00:01:33] Now, let's listen in.

[00:01:38] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Bob Peak. He is a volunteer with Pacific Wildlife care in SLO County, California. And today we're gonna talk about barn owls. Thanks for being on the podcast, Bob.

[00:01:48] Bob Peak: Thank you very much Craig, and I want to thank you and the Niner Wine Estates for this invitation. I think that this going to be very informative and quite fascinating actually.

[00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background on that. I met Bob, when he came out to Niner Wine estates, looking for clutches, looking for looking for outlets, and we learned all kinds of fascinating things. And I was like, I have got to talk to this guy on the podcast 'cause there's so much information and interesting things about barn owls that I didn't know, until a couple months ago.

[00:02:23] But why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about, pacific wildlife Care.

[00:02:28] Bob Peak: Yes. Pacific Wildlife Care was started 41 years ago here in the county by home rehabbers. There was no facility. People did their work in their specialty right out of their home, whether it was raccoons or opossums. We people tended to have a different skill that they were good at, and it started with very humble beginnings.

[00:02:51] We finally reached a point where we could afford a facility and we went and occupied part of the PG&E power plant there in Morrow Bay. We are right next door to the Marine Mammal Center, if anyone knows where that is, and we are right now in the process of having to move as they are, also as there are plans coming up for the property.

[00:03:17] We currently have had some donors step up and provide us with not only the 10 acres of land on Buckley Road in San Luis Obispo, but we are also very quickly in the process of building a brand new facility out there.

[00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: That is really great. There's definitely a need for this. How did you personally become involved in wildlife rehabilitation?

[00:03:43] Bob Peak: I needed something to do after I retired and I literally, I saw an ad in the Tribune, a local paper that said that they were looking for volunteers and I had had some experience with the birds of prey as a a child. I have a Native American background and they're a very important part of our culture.

[00:04:04] we, we learned about them early on and the opportunity to work around people that were like-minded as far as with the animals in San Luis Bipo County was rather exciting.

[00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: And so let's move on. Talk about barn owls specifically. Why is it important to encourage and protect barn owls?

[00:04:24] Bob Peak: Ooh, that's a good question. barn owls are a species that really keep things in check. They're the balance to something that could get outta control very quickly. and I think we all see that, whether it's at our houses or at the wineries. And that's these, the rodents and other pests. That not only are harmful to us but they're harmful to our crops and even potential danger to us as well.

[00:04:56] They are voracious eaters. They consume anywhere between six to eight voles or gophers a night. And that's each when a parent is feeding the young. That number can go up by times four. You could see that you might be 30 vols taken a night. So they do a tremendous job for the environment. And again, they, they're more of a checks and balances.

[00:05:29] I think too that the more barn owls that you have in an area it means that you're basically protected. It's one of those things too where people also think the same way with the, the skunks or opossums and raccoons. They can be nuisances at times, but they serve a very good purpose in eliminating all kinds of pests, insects, and things that you don't want.

[00:05:56] Craig Macmillan: What is the lifecycle of a barn owl?

[00:06:00] Bob Peak: . I wrote a couple of notes down on this. The lifecycle is rather short for barn owl. The, they're cavity nesters, what happens is the, the barn owl parents make for life, they're monogamous. So they'll stick around they'll find a cavity barn or something that a box where they'll head in and lay anywhere between one and eight eggs. The incubation period is rather quick.

[00:06:38] The breeding season is basically between late January and February for about six to eight weeks. , about a week and a half before the female laser eggs, she's nest bound. She's too heavy to fly. She can't even get out of the box.

[00:06:53] Another thing that she does at that same time is she picks a little brood patch. On her belly to where she can remove those feathers. And once the young born, 'cause they have no feathers, she will put them right next to that skin of hers for the warmth that they're gonna need.

[00:07:15] Incubation is 29 to about 34 days. Again, they could lay between one and eight eggs. And they can do that three times a year. They might just have one clutch of eight. They could have two or maybe even three if the conditions are right.

[00:07:33] She'll turn these eggs every so many minutes and then it takes, oh, I would say, you know, like 29 to 34 days,

[00:07:44] and then the chick to get out from the shell. The have this little hook on the end of their bill. It's an egg tooth that's on the end of their, bill. And then that will actually break the egg open and it does take a while for, it takes 12 to 36 hours for 'em to get out of that eggshell. Four to seven.

[00:08:08] It'll be about four months before they'll see another. But brood, because once they leave, then they'll lay more eggs.

[00:08:17] The four months will pass from the egg being laid to the young, gaining independence. That's it. And they pretty much don't receive much training from their parents. It's, they get out of the box and then they're on their own. Where a great horned owl will spend up to a year or more, even longer with their parents.

[00:08:37] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.

[00:08:39] Bob Peak: A freshly hatched barnells Pink mentioned that know they hatch in sequence of the way that they were laid.

[00:08:46] Craig Macmillan: Oh.

[00:08:46] Bob Peak: The oldest could be three weeks old when the youngest hatches. So there is a. A challenge for food with that young one because that big one's gonna be going after it. So that's right off the bat. You know, you got some you know, some things working against you.

[00:09:03] The downey Plumage starts to show up about three weeks later. They tend to clutch together and for that warmth till then. And then the female again, is taking the food brought by the male. The male is doing all the hunting. And the male will bring it in. The female will grab that food and rip it apart and feed it individually to each of the babies. Very small pieces

[00:09:31] about the time they're two weeks old, they can stand on their own and they can actually eat whole prey. And now that's something to see on itself, to watch these little critters take a vole or a small mouse and swallow that you think they're gonna choke. It's quite. For a parent, you know, you're worried, you know

[00:09:53] once the, the youngest chick can feed itself, then mom will leave the nest for hunting too. No longer needed to rip food. And then it takes both parents to feed those animals. And because each of the young ones are gonna need three or more mice themselves. On top of mom and dad eating each needing 8, 6, 7, or eight themselves.

[00:10:23] Average time to fledge is about nine weeks. Fledgling means they basically are fully feathered and ready to take off to see the world. They can test their wings sometimes, but to do so a lot of times there's no perch. There's just basically the entry and exit hole. That's why we find 'em so many times on the ground. They're curious. They get close to that or sometimes they can get pushed out again. Most of the time when we receive them, it's because they've fallen out of a nest.

[00:10:58] , if they are on the ground, they're pretty much doomed because. There's raccoons in your area, Craig. You've got Bobcat, you've got mountain lions, coyotes. We're trying to get them back into that box as soon as we can.

[00:11:13] Fledglings will continue to be fed by the parents for about three months, maybe even a little longer. By. Oh, I would say November. The fledglings will have dispersed if they were laid in the summer and they found a territory settled into a new Nest site. But life is hard for the new ones. It's true of owls and it's true of the raptors, hawks, eagles and things. The survival rate is low. The survival rates can average 37 to 65%.

[00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.

[00:11:54] Bob Peak: But the odds improve greatly. If they make it past their first year, they gotta get the skills down. Many young barnells starve to death. Typically, they'll live only another three or four, three years through typical lifespan.

[00:12:09] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.

[00:12:10] Bob Peak: The barn owls do not typically hunt close to their nest box. They like to leave, they like to go to open fields where they can fly low. Listening for rodents. A lot of times, again, we think of them as using their sight, but they have incredible hearing as well. Just look at those ears on a great horn owl.

[00:12:31] The one of the reasons why they get into trouble as well, when they're going close to the ground or just flying after something, they're looking down and they're not looking ahead. That's why they could easily run into the side of a truck. On a side, you know, a highway and you see them very frequently on the side of the road. 'cause that's just what they did. They ran right into the side of it. They can run into power poles, they run into anything that's there in front of them they can run into. So it's, it can be dangerous. About 80% of fatalities are from traffic casualties, 80%. It is really important to keep your nest boxes away from the road and the highway and the entrance hole. Of course, we talked about this, Craig is always facing east and never facing a busy road.

[00:13:27] Would you like me to talk about the nest box that we have come to?

[00:13:32] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. First of all though, i, you know, you mentioned, mice and voles most of vineyards are interested in gophers. How important are gophers to their diet?

[00:13:43] Bob Peak: Oh, extremely. They're, they're just like a vole. Very similar. They're like the, the same thing. They love gophers. I think that you'll find it in in vineyards like yours where you take a more natural approach to things. You're letting much Mother Nature do this work. And the gophers are very delicious for these barn owls they're meaty usually. The mice can be a little smaller, it's very good. That's why they prefer a gopher or a vol.

[00:14:18] I know that some of the vineyards around also will spray and we talked about this you know, using no, , insecticides and things like that where yours is a, you know, a kind of a, a free zone and when you're spraying on the ground and things chemicals. Those are picked up by the rodents and things of that nature and transferred to the barn owl. So, another reason to take your approach to vineyard management. Very important step. It's, it keeps everything safe.

[00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: Let's talk about barn owl nesting boxes now. You mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things. You said nightmare road. The opening facing east is preferable. Will they not nest if the opening is facing north or west or south?

[00:15:08] Bob Peak: They will, but you're gonna expose them to wind and air and possibly rain that will you know, get in there. That's typical. Most of our, our, our weather fronts are coming from west to east, so it gives them a little added protection

[00:15:26] also to that sun coming up in the morning. It gives some warmth into the box. Yeah, but those are, those are the, the real key points.

[00:15:35] Another one too, craig, is to make sure that the box is well ventilated. It has to have ventilation holes throughout the box. It's best to have 'em on the floor so any liquid that does get in there can go through as well as on the side, so you can get a breeze through there.

[00:15:55] Size also is very important. If you can think about having eight of those little barn outlets with two parents in there, you need a big box and for them to really thrive.

[00:16:10] The larger the box, the better. The I've seen some boxes that are so small that it just, it gives the owl outlets less of a chance because they feel that they have to fight to survive a little more when there's not enough space. And I've heard of other owletes pushing other owletes out of the box just to increase their chances of survival. You know, it's kind of one of those survival of the fittest things. So the more room they have, the better it is for everyone.

[00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How big is appropriate?

[00:16:49] Bob Peak: I would say probably three feet by two feet, to three feet, and probably two to three feet tall.

[00:16:58] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. That's a lot bigger than most of the boxes. I see. Yeah.

[00:17:01] Bob Peak: They are, they're much bigger. We've looked at a lot of other facilities that rescue barn owls.

[00:17:08] We've even gone over to England. They have a a, a program with their owls as well. They had one of the more interesting boxes. it had on the outside a platform. Purchase basically. So these young ones can get out there and see the world, test their wings and then get right back inside if they need to.

[00:17:29] Much bigger boxes, much heavier to work with. Again, that was the thing that we found. We, it was just a heavy box, but it was exceptional. But it was big. And they need to be cleaned. So any box that's built needs to have an access port to where you can get into it every couple years and clean out the droppings which need to be done very carefully, because again, as you know, some animal droppings can cause us harm. So you wanna make sure you wear a mask.

[00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Right.

[00:18:02] Bob Peak: Again there's all kinds of issues and that, or, discussions about having a perch on the outside or ledge on the outside of that box.

[00:18:12] It's nice because they can get out there, have a chance of getting out and getting right back in and not falling to the ground. That perch also is a chance for a great horned owl to come over and get itself on there as well, or on any of the little. Ledges that you built.

[00:18:32] The key to all of this is the size of that entry hole. That entry hole cannot be bigger than about five and a half inches, really, five to five and a half inches any bigger than that. You're gonna a, a great horned l be able to get in and then, and it's just, it's not good.

[00:18:50] Craig Macmillan: Right. So the, horned owl is a predator

[00:18:53] my. It is, you wouldn't think, you know, owl to owl stuff like that. But yeah, it is. They are probably one of the more other than traffic fatalities, it's the, great horned owl

[00:19:06] They are very aggressive. They know where these things live. They're very smart. The great horned owl, and again. If you get a young one out on a perch and it's there, it's, it could be could be done.

[00:19:20] I have seen, 'cause I've been to a lot of vineyards in the area and I've seen a lot of large holes in these boxes and I actually went into one and it, it was occupied by great horned owl. it laid eggs in the box.

[00:19:38] Oh wow.

[00:19:39] Bob Peak: So. Well that is something too about owls. Is they don't make nests.

[00:19:45] , the great horned owl will and barn owl will find a cavity. The great horn owl's, not a cavity nester, but they'll take an old hawks nest or eagle nest or something and make it their own. And then they tend to get into trouble because they're usually using a nest that isn't in that good of a shape.

[00:20:04] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. What are some other things about sighting of boxes? We, we know not close to a road. We know the direction of the, the, of the opening. What are some things that will encourage the bar nows to nest there based on their other behavior?

[00:20:19] Bob Peak: I, I think that you just have, to know, about approximately how many acres you have and you want to place a box about every five acres. You can actually have more boxes depending on how much food you have for them, but anywhere between five to 10 acres per box. Again, with the parameters of facing these, being the correct size and everything. So if you have a 50 acre property, you're looking at anywhere between oh five to 10 boxes on that property.

[00:20:54] Craig Macmillan: And something that. I had heard was that it's good to have them near a tree. So that they have someplace that they can land right away when they come out of the box. Is that true?

[00:21:05] Bob Peak: Yeah. I, we, we've experimented with that Absolutely. Again that's a more natural setting for them where they would be in the the hollow of a tree and come out and possibly be on a branch. Absolutely. I like that. I like that better than being on a pole.

[00:21:24] As long as you still have access to the clean out and, and isn't too, you know, dangerous for someone to get up there. Yeah. I like that better than being on a pole without a

[00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: Well actually having it in a tree.

[00:21:37] Bob Peak: yes,

[00:21:37] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Because what I had been told was that you'd want to have one because of the horn dial. You have one on a pole, but have it close to a tree where they can just shoot out and land on a branch and look around and see if there's a threat.

[00:21:51] But you say, actually put it in the tree

[00:21:55] Bob Peak: it in the tree.

[00:21:56] Craig Macmillan: fascinating. That's really interesting.

[00:21:58] The way that I met you is you were looking. For clutches to, how should we say, transplant? Some some outlets that, That you folks had. And I learned that barn owls are one of the few raptors That will actually foster outlets from other clutches. That's true.

[00:22:18] Bob Peak: That that is correct, Craig. Very good. Good research. Yes. We found that the barn owls were exceptional foster parents, which really gives those guys a chance to make it.

[00:22:31] We found out that like you mentioned, the hawks and others just really don't do it. In fact, it would be dangerous to even attempt in some of the species.

[00:22:41] One of our, original founders of Pacific Wildlife Care, Kelly was very successful in well all. Many of the things that she does for Pacific Wildlife Care, but she was able to get a red shoulder, a female hawk, to foster young red shoulder hawks for many, many, many years, and gave many of those a chance that wouldn't have a chance. The, the quite amazing I lost my train of thought.

[00:23:13] Craig Macmillan: Well, we were talking about fostering and what I had learned from you was you were looking at the clutch that we had at niner, and apparently you, you need to match. The foster bird to the family in terms of its age and development, is that correct.

[00:23:32] Bob Peak: That that is correct. Do you want to throw that young one in where there's other young and where there aren't adolescents? I. To where it's gonna have a chance to get some food.

[00:23:43] Another thing that one of the other parameters for finding a foster box, you know, a barnell box is The number in there. If there's already five in there, it would be hard for me to put a one or possibly two in there and put that much added stress on the parent. To feed it, and we really can't ensure that that young one's gonna get fed with that many in the box.

[00:24:11] I look for one that has maybe three, two, or three, and that additional one or two outlets is not going to stress the parents and the other young ones. But yes, you, you try to match up with age and size as well.

[00:24:30] Craig Macmillan: You had mentioned that a nesting pair might have multiple clutches during a year and of different sizes, and if I, remember correctly, that has to do with the availability of resources.

[00:24:42] Bob Peak: Yeah, absolutely. Craig. I have found over the years you know, we've the living on the central coast, it's feast and famine with the rain as well.

[00:24:53] And I've seen years we're going around to different wineries. There might be 15 boxes and 12 or 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied. I've also. Gone around different seasons and hit 30 boxes and only two of them were occupied. That's how bad the food situation was.

[00:25:16] Where we get into a pinch with our fostering and the barn owls finding a home for 'em is that we have a lot of farmers and ranchers in the Paso area. And a lot of 'em , get that hay. Some of the best hay you can get is out of Oregon and they bring a lot of that alfalfa and hay down. And when they're in the moving those bales around, after the farmer gets a, a load they discover that there's owl outlets in the hay bales. We receive a lot of outlets through the bales of hay that are shipped to us here. Locally from outta state, and those are the ones that we must have a foster box for because there's no chance of ever reuniting with their original parents.

[00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: How do they end up in there? How do they end up in the hay?

[00:26:10] Bob Peak: Oh, well, , imagine a big, giant stack of hay, 15 feet tall and you know, it sat there for months they'll, you know, there's little spots where they can get in and. It's quite nice for a nest. The they'll also use, palm trees and things of that nature where they can get in there. Yeah, so it's quite common for 'em to get into hay? bales

[00:26:33] Craig Macmillan: What conditions overall, we've talked about a couple of different things, but like in the, in the grand scheme, what are the kinds of conditions that they're gonna be looking for in a, in a nesting box? I.

[00:26:45] Bob Peak: as far as the owls and owls

[00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. So the, So when the nesting pair, is it, does the male find the nest and then attract the female or the other way around?

[00:26:55] Or do they call up some kind of a bird, bird box realtor and go look at different, look at look at different spots and say, I like this one better than that one. Or

[00:27:04] Bob Peak: that's a good question. I think it's more the female you know, they have that nesting instinct. 'cause they're gonna be laying the eggs. And I think that it's just, it's more like any, any female would tell you it's, it's a feel. it. feels good this place. And they don't tend to wander off very far from when, where they were born.

[00:27:28] So this place has felt good to her for a while. A lot of times they'll use the same box over every single year. So that's why, again, it's nice to you know, you could even add boxes depending on, you know, just how many boxes are occupied. You can tell if you, if you've got 15 boxes and 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied, you could probably put more boxes on your property.

[00:27:55] Craig Macmillan: In. Interesting. Yeah, I've seen that myself in vineyards where there'll be a one box located in just a spot. Doesn't seem to be very interesting to me or anything special. And the ground below it is just littered with, with pellets and bones and skulls and it is been going on for years, obviously. And then you go down 50 yards and there's nothing like the box doesn't look like the box has ever been in inhabited.

[00:28:21] Bob Peak: Very true.

[00:28:23] Craig Macmillan: And, it just has to do with kind of where they came from and they like to come back to the same box. I, think that's interesting.

[00:28:30] Bob Peak: And, and it's more of a feel too, again of, of what's around, is there a wire that they have to dodge? Is there a tree? They might have seen a great horn owl over there in that other spot. Yeah. There, there, there's no telling what has, but mainly that nesting instinct drives that female to that box.

[00:28:51] Craig Macmillan: Are there particular conditions you think that are like big, big red flags? You mentioned the presence of barn ows. You mentioned is there a wire? Are there definitely some situations where if I'm gonna place a box I, can look around and kind of go, yeah, it's probably not the best spot

[00:29:05] Bob Peak: I, I think the key is what we, we, we were just talking about with wires, anything that's gonna get them tangled up. Sometimes the I've seen netting in trees. To keep reptiles even out, and you want to avoid placing a box around there. But I think the main thing is again, where most fatalities occur are close to the road. Keep them away from the road. That, that, that, that's really the most important.

[00:29:32] Craig Macmillan: Something that I heard that I don't know is true was that when you, there are two things.

[00:29:38] One, there's the question of whether you should paint the box or not,

[00:29:42] and then two, that they won't come and nest unless the boxes had a chance to weather for a year or so. Are either of those true?

[00:29:52] Bob Peak: , we've talked about that the painting on the outside of the box is fine. Throw up some white on there to you know, kind of keep it from getting too hot, but you don't want to paint the inside. The paint is fumey. The chicks could pick at it with their beaks. So there's all kinds of reasons why you wouldn't want it on the inside, but certainly on the outside. Yes.

[00:30:17] You also want to avoid wood that has particular odors. There can be some wood that is very, very pungent cedars and things like that. And you want to be careful about that. So just a regular pine or regular fir box. And I think there's one that's preferable to another, but I'm not sure what that is. Pine versus fir. I could find out though.

[00:30:44] Craig Macmillan: Well what, what about just basic plywood?

[00:30:47] Bob Peak: Yeah. Well that's made out of a, usually a fir or a pine.

[00:30:51] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.

[00:30:52] Bob Peak: Exactly.

[00:30:54] You can run that whitewash on the outside give it the vent holes. That's really the only only parameters.

[00:31:03] Craig Macmillan: Are there other things that a grower can do to make an nesting box more attractive? I.

[00:31:08] Bob Peak: I, I don't really have a mailbox out front or maybe a, you know, welcome some welcome home

[00:31:15] Craig Macmillan: Just supply some gophers right in front of the box.

[00:31:18] Bob Peak: yeah, maybe some gophers hanging outside now that might do it. No, not really. I think again, it's just a matter of need and a matter of availability.

[00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: Right are there, are there other birds that compete for the nesting habitat, the naturally occurring habitat,

[00:31:39] Bob Peak: As far as,

[00:31:41] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that kestrels can be a competitor.

[00:31:43] Bob Peak: yeah, kestrels are cavity nesters. That's a fact. But I think there's so many more options for them. They're much smaller. I. And there's so many little nooks and crannies and trees and other things like that to where most of the times, , I've not seen in my practice a kestrel in a barn owl box. I have seen great horns in there, but not kestrels.

[00:32:10] Craig Macmillan: Got it. Is there one thing that you would tell a grower? One piece of advice that you would tell a grape grower on this topic?

[00:32:20] Bob Peak: Let nature watch over your property.

[00:32:23] Craig Macmillan: That's good

[00:32:23] Bob Peak: It's been doing it since before you got here, and it'll do it after you've gone. That's how it's always worked. And work with it. And not work against it.

[00:32:38] Craig Macmillan: It makes, makes a lot of sense. Where can people find out more about you in wildlife?

[00:32:44] Bob Peak: Best is to go to our Facebook page or our webpage at pacificwildlifecare.org. Facebook page is great because there's a lot of videos and pictures. If you have children, it's wonderful because we have release videos there.

[00:33:03] They can click on different links once they get to our Facebook page, find out ways to get involved. We're always, again, we're a 501(c)3 nonprofit, so like all of those, we're always looking for two things, people and money. So there's gonna be plenty of opportunity for people to get involved in both ways there on our websites.

[00:33:26] And we have a lot of really, really wonderful things coming up. With this new facility there we're, really quite excited.

[00:33:33] They can also call us at 805-543-WILD. That's really more of a, you know, a rescue line. But if you have general questions and you want to know more, you can please call them and they'll help you out in any way you want.

[00:33:51] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. And actually I, do have one more question just occurred to me. If I do come along and find some outlets, they're out of the box, clearly they're not able to fly or they're not ready to go. , how do I handle that?

[00:34:07] Bob Peak: Excellent. Thank you for bringing that up. That's an excellent question, Craig.

[00:34:11] Best thing to do is to realize that. These young little outlets, as young as they look and as innocent as they look, they've got some talons on them. So you always want to avoid getting your hands near, near their, their their talents.

[00:34:29] But the most important thing with a young one that falls out is to keep them warm. I would place them inside a box, put some bedding down or something in there to let them get snuggled into it. And call Pacific Wildlife Care, our hotline, and we'll have someone out there asap to get this guy give them a chance, but keep them warm and sheltered. For the night. You might have to hold them overnight, but as long as they're warm they'll be fine. And to not feed there's no need to give the animals any food.

[00:35:04] Craig Macmillan: And, we have listeners around the nation and around the world, and I would imagine that there are similar organizations located in every state and the union. And so just do a little research And, find who your local people are. Because I was doing research on this myself preparing for the interview, And, I was really impressed by , the network really of wildlife rehabilitation globally around the world. I think there's actually an international association, if I remember right.

[00:35:30] Bob Peak: Yeah. And thanks for bringing that up. We can't do this by ourselves. That's why we need our volunteers. We need other organizations as you mentioned.

[00:35:41] We find that so many times when we have gotten in a pinch, we have relied on the Ojai raptor center. They have been invaluable as far as us being able to bring them animals that , we weren't able to take care of, but they are.

[00:35:58] So if they can't do it, we can, or vice versa. It's an important network that one way or another we'll get it done. 'cause we have, volunteers that will travel anywhere to take care of these animals.

[00:36:12] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic.

[00:36:14] Well. This was a great conversation. I, like I said, I met you when you were looking for a place to foster some owls, and it was just really, really, fascinating to me, having been around this topic for a very, very long time. the barn owl is kind of the mascot of vineyard team. It's on a lot of our, a lot of our stuff. And so we've been, we've been following this for a long time and I learned more from you in about an hour. Then I had learned in the preceding several decades, let's just put it. that way, several decades. And I, And I, really appreciated that. It was really, really great. And I really appreciate you being a guest.

[00:36:50] Again, our guest today was Bob Peak. He's a volunteer with Civic Wildlife Care in san Luis Obispo County. And yeah, just thanks for being on the podcast. It's a really real pleasure.

[00:37:01] Bob Peak: Thank you Craig. And again, thank you, for this opportunity. Again, please check out Pacific Wildlife Care. you'll love it.

[00:37:08]

[00:37:12] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening.

[00:37:13] Today's podcast was brought to you by Helena Agri Enterprises. Founded in 1957, Helena Agri Enterprises has grown to be one of the nation's foremost agricultural and specialty formulators and distributors In the United States products and services offered include crop protection products. Fertilizer specialized nutrients, seeds, and precision ag services and software. Helena's overriding goal is to help its customers succeed. This is achieved with a unique combination of dedicated and knowledgeable people, unique and useful products, and the latest technical knowledge. The company defines its own success through the success of its customers.

[00:37:56] Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Pacific Wildlife Care, the barn owl Trust in the United Kingdom, UC Davis' Raptor Center, plus Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast episodes 58 barnells 84 Falconry Bird Abatement, and 118 managing rodent pests and vineyards with integrated pest management.

[00:38:18] If you liked the show, you can do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you could reach us at [email protected].

[00:38:31] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how best to integrate them into their farming operations. Nevada Smith, Head of Marketing North America, and Robert Blundell, Research Plant Pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group, highlight the role of biological pesticides and biofertilizers in sustainable winegrowing.

Biological pesticides, derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes, play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality. Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness.

Biofertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses, are another key tool for sustainable viticulture. Nevada and Robert discuss the growing importance of these technologies in improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity.

Resources:

REGISTER: 5/9/25 Biochar Field Day

117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light

123: What is Happening in Biologicals for Pest Management and Plant Health

266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot

Healthy Soils Playlist

Integrated Pest Management (IPM) Principles

ProFarm

What are Biopesticides?

Vineyard Team Programs:

Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate

SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet

Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year

Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how to best integrate them into their farming operations.

[00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director.

[00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Nevada Smith Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Together, they highlight the role of biological pesticides and bio fertilizers in sustainable wine. Growing

[00:00:49] biological pesticides are derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes. They play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality

[00:01:04] Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness.

[00:01:13] Bio fertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses are another key tool for sustainable viticulture, Nevada and Robert discussed the growing importance of these technologies and improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity.

[00:01:30] If you're gonna be in Paso Robles, California on May 9th, 2025. Join us at Niner Wine Estates for a Biochar Field day. This interactive morning features live demonstrations and expert discussions on the benefits of biochar for soil health and sustainable farming. Learn how to integrate biochar into your farming operations through practical insights and hands-on experiences. Go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes to get registered.

[00:02:00] Now let's listen in.

[00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: My guest today are Nevada Smith. He is Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thank you for being on the podcast

[00:02:15] Rob Blundell: Thank you, Craig.

[00:02:16] Nevada Smith: Thank you.

[00:02:18] Craig Macmillan: Today we're gonna be talking about bio pesticides and we might as well start with the the basics. What is a biological pesticide? Robert, why don't you start?

[00:02:26] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's a good question, Craig. And and you know, honestly, it's. So when I first was kind of thinking about this, it's not as simple explanation as you might think. It's a constantly kind of evolving term and depending on who you are asking, you can get a, a very different answer. And it's, it's really kind of this large umbrella term.

[00:02:42] . It's kind of a microbially based product or natural product typically derived from a plant, fungi, bacteria, nematode, you know. That pretty much has the ability to inhibit or delay the growth or, you know, cause the death of a pest.

[00:02:56] And you know, with the term biological pesticide, pesticide being extremely broad whether it's, you know, insect, fungi, even rodent, you know, rodent sides, things like that. So yeah, again, it's a very broad term and different, different grooves, different commodities are gonna kind of have their own explanation.

[00:03:09] Even the EU has a different, I think definition versus the EPA as well. So it's an evolving, evolving term.

[00:03:15] Craig Macmillan: What about you, Nevada? Do you have anything to add to that?

[00:03:17] Nevada Smith: I'm kind of with Robert, it's almost like sustainability. What does that mean? It means to me, I get to keep farming every year. But I think for everyone else it might have different definitions. And I think basically the, the premise is, is it's biologically based. It's based on a living organism, something that we can repeat, regrow, and, you know, the societal part of it, bio pesticide, it means it's acting or killing or helping mitigate pest. For proform have a biologically based strategy. And so we, that's what we deliver is those type of tools.

[00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: One of the major pets on grapes is powdery mildew. Around the globe. Probably the major pest overall, I would say fungal disease. I have been seeing a lot of increase in the use of bio pesticides specifically for powdery mildew, some in organic systems, some in more traditional sustainability oriented systems.

[00:04:09] What kind of mechanisms are there out there in the biological world for managing powdery mildew and how does that, how do they work? Nevada, do you wanna start?

[00:04:18] Nevada Smith: Yeah, so for biological pesticides, there's sort of different categories and I'll even. Even throwing some sort of organic pesticides as well into this whole mix. I think as a grower or a wine processor, you have a choice and it's like, either I'm going conventional, I'm looking to maximize my value proposition on my vineyard or my process my wines. And so one of the ways we really think about this is how do you integrate bio pesticides into the overall spray for bio mildew, like our winemaker at our place they always say, Hey, if it's more than 3% power mildew it's a no go. It's a bad day for us. And so for us to take the risk on our farm. For a biologicial pesticide, we had to have some data to really get us excited about it.

[00:05:02] Overall, we wanna see performance. We need to see at least seven to 10 days. And I think that's maybe the biggest challenge a powerdy mildew issue is depending on what sort of climate and what variety of grapes you're growing is how long does it take me to get across the vineyard?

[00:05:17] It's really what it comes down to.

[00:05:18] And you know, maybe from a pathology point of view, Robert has some perspective.

[00:05:24] Rob Blundell: The way we want to kind of think about powdery mildew is it's, you know, it's, it's always gonna be there. It's gonna be present. And biologicals, when used in the right way, can be a fantastic you know, tool in the arsenal. For, for growers or farmers against a deadly pathogen like this.

[00:05:38] Growers really need to kind of consider the goal of using a biological, because there's so many different mechanisms of action of a biological, I mean, it can be live, it can be live, it can be the, you know, the spent fermentation product of a biological, which is gonna work very differently versus an actual liable organism you're gonna put in your field.

[00:05:53] So kind of having a clear mindset from the, from the start is gonna be crucial to knowing. What kind of biological do you use? And also importantly, kind of when to use it as well. Because you can have drastically different outcomes based on like the time of your, you know, the time of venue production and then, and then the time of the season as well.

[00:06:09] But yes yeah, ultimately there's broad, broad mechanism of actions. So if we're putting something on there live you know, you know, with something like powder mildew, this, pathogen functions because it attaches onto leaves. So we have these overwintering structures called cassia.

[00:06:24] So these are basically the dormant structures that are gonna help powerdy mildew, survive. That's why it's been around for so long. That's why it's, it comes back every year. So it basically shuts down, it's fungal mycelium into these dormant hard structures. And then every year it basically reawakens around spring when we get the rainfall.

[00:06:39] So we're gonna get ASCO spores. These are specialized spore structures within that kind of dormant structure. They get released out. So, you know, with the, with the weather coming in this week, that's gonna be, huge out there right now. So we're gonna get the release of those spores.

[00:06:51] They're gonna land on that leaf. So really that's kind of our prime target of having protection is when they're gonna be landing and then adhesing to that leaf. So with something like a biological, if we can get that onto that leaf and then, you know, that's kind of our line of defense really. We want to be setting like a line of defense early in the season.

[00:07:08] Know we have a product regalia. So that gets on there. It has these antimicrobial compounds, which the first point of contact is gonna. Prevent you know, it's gonna help mitigate that interaction between the leaf and the pathogen acts as kind of that medium layer. And then it's also gonna boost the plant's natural defense.

[00:07:24] So how powdery mildew you kind of functions it. Once it gets on that leaf, it has a very specialized structure. Call it, they would call it a whole story or an appium, depending on where you are in the world and specialized structure that will kind of get through that cell wall, under that cell membrane and then sucks out the nutrients from the leaf so we can get a biological on the early to boost that plant defense, boost those, you know, defense fight hormone pathways.

[00:07:46] We're gonna kind of mitigate that as a an initial point of contact. And then hopefully that's gonna set us off for a you know, a good season after that. But the time, yeah, the timing is definitely crucial.

[00:07:55] Nevada Smith: I think to add to Robert's point is really to start your season off right and clean. So that's why as growers or as winemakers, you choose to use some sulfur to kind of mitigate, which is not necessarily a bio pesticide, but it could be organic, you know, depending on what your source of there. But those tools to me, are foundational for getting a clean start if you start bad, and it's gonna be a hell of a year all year long.

[00:08:20] And I think that's the biggest challenge of bio pesticide uses overall is. Where do they fit, what growers they fit in? And it's not a solution for all, for sure. I mean, if you're growing Chardonnay or Pinot Noir on the Sonoma Coast in a foggy bank off of Bodega Bay, tough times, you know? But if you're in Pastor Robles, maybe in the Napa Valley in the valley where it's a little bit drier, you go in cab. Issue. You probably can integrate a nice bio pesticide program into it, and I think that's the secret.

[00:08:58] Craig Macmillan: You mentioned regalia. What is the actual ingredient in regalia? What does it come from?

[00:09:03] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so for Regalia the active ingredient comes from giant knotweed, so Ray Nectria. So that's a giant knotweed extract essentially that's been procured and then optimized in r and d and then applied typically as a folia spray for, for grape vines.

[00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: And then the plant reacts to that, and that's what increases the plant defense mechanism.

[00:09:22] Rob Blundell: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. There's kind of a few, few tiers of how, you know, Regilia kind of functions. So yeah, so we do that kind of initial application pretty much as soon as you, you have any green tissue, you know, really that's a great time to kind of get that on there. And then so the plant is gonna respond to that so typically a plant, defence pathway.

[00:09:39] We have salicylic acid, so that is a key phyto hormones. So phyto hormones are kind of the driving force behind the plant defense. And this is very, you know, this is typical for all kind of pathogens, all kind of crops really. So you're gonna have a pathogen interact and we'll have its initial interaction with a plant.

[00:09:55] And then you're gonna get this initial, like, response straight away from a plan. It's gonna be, Hey, I, my defenses are up. I, I sense this as a foreign agent. Basically I need to, you know, protect myself. So you get this upregulation of fighter hormones. They're very regulated. Pathways that then have these cascading effects to ultimately kind of therefore have longer term defense.

[00:10:14] So you have an upregulation of fighter hormones. This is gonna signal to the plant that, Hey, I need to strengthen my cell walls, for example. So I'm gonna send more liening cell lignin being a crucial component a cell. wall . That's something we see upregulated as a result of regalia. So we get that increase in phyto hormones, we'll get lignin sent to the cell wall.

[00:10:32] We get an increase in antioxidants as well to kinda help break down the pathogen as well. Limiteds effects we get polyphenols various other kind of antimicrobials as a result. So we have kind of direct effects, but then crucially with regalia, so we're gonna have the plant initially respond to its application, and then when the pathogen does.

[00:10:50] Come around for a, an attack. That plan already kind of is, is heightened its responses, it's ready for it, so it's gonna be a faster kind of response time and therefore what we kind of consider more of a, a longer term defense response.

[00:11:02] Craig Macmillan: Are there other modes of action, perhaps ones that are live?

[00:11:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah. And that, I think that's a great point. Is there, you know, the, the bacillus category has been a big category the last dozen years or so. And this could be anything waiting from a bacillus subtles to bacillus Emli. There's other bacilli out there too. And I think they're more of an integrated approach.

[00:11:22] So I conventional our farm vineyards. We're gonna just rotate it in there. So just like if you're straight organic or you're straight bio pesticide, it'd be a regalia, as an example, rotated with a bacillus product. We happen to have one as well, a very nice one called Sargus. But there's other great solutions out there in the marketplace today. There's other living organisms as well. There's some products in the Streptomyces categories as well. They're used in grow rotation, but I think to me as a grower and as a winemaker myself. I'm just looking for integration, IPM strategy all the way along. And depend on how, what your guard rails are for farming that would dictate what your options are overall.

[00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: So, , to you, Robert, , how do these actually work? Like bacillus subtilis and things?

[00:12:11] How do they actually either prevent or treat powdery mildew in grape.

[00:12:15] Rob Blundell: Yeah, good question. So for Bacillus with Star in particular so we're actually not looking to treat powdery mildew kind of outright with this product itself. That's more where regalia is gonna come as a benefit. So actually Bacillus is great for something like botrytis in grapes. So, and this is really, really where we can kind of combine regalia and stargus together for a very effective program.

[00:12:34] Kind of a one-two punch. So we, you have a live bacillus product. So we have spores that are gonna colonize a surface. So whether that's being the soil, you know, microbia the leaves or the berries, and with botrytis infecting berries causing damage, necrotic lesions in those berries, that's where something like stargus , a bacillus product can be applied to those berries to effectively colonize it.

[00:12:55] And again, kind of creating like a nice. Kind of shield essentially from pretty much all fungal pathogens work the same. They have to attach, then they have to penetrate to essentially, hold on. So if we can kind of form a physical, kind of physical barrier, that's gonna be great. So for a lot of the Bacillus products they produce a suite of antimicrobials.

[00:13:13] So star for our company we have a suite of antimicrobials that produces, so we have things like Itur, Phin, these are all really good antimicrobials. They're gonna have a direct effect on it. So those spores will be able to, you know, colonize the berry, for example, and then help Yeah. Prevent prevent powerdy mildew So you have this live culture essentially that's on the grapes and it's producing compounds, and that's where the, the antimicrobial comes in or the antifungal comes in.

[00:13:40] Nevada Smith: Yes. And.

[00:13:47] So there's two registrations from an EPA standpoint. There's the live bacteria count, which people are familiar with from back in the day when there was bts, right cells ths for worm protection. And so we measure the CFUs, which is a colony forming unit. So the bacteria, and there's a minimum threshold that we have for our product as well as anybody else that registers their bacteria. Just sort of a quality control thing for the grower to know this is the level we produce. What we. Seeing the production for our solution is really around the chemical compounds being created in the fermentation process, this lipopeptides cycle. And so that's what's important to know that there's some differentiation.

[00:14:25] And I always use the example, I'm a huge basketball fan and you know, there's a difference between Michael Jordan and myself. I'm not at his level. And so not all bacilli are created equal, but they all do have some performance values for them. And obviously, you know, the more you can look into science and whether it be uc, extension and the Gubler Eskalen models and local trial researchers will give you the value proposition each of these products brings to you.

[00:14:50] Craig Macmillan: Now, this is something that I, I don't think I've heard before and I wanna make sure that I heard it correctly. So, some of the protection is actually coming from things that are being produced during the fermentation production of the bacteria themselves. And so these are side things. And then that makes it into the final product.

[00:15:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah, that's actually the most important thing on foliar. So holistically for bacillus, and this is a very broad brush here unless you're in a tropical environment like bananas in. Columbia or Costa Rica, you're not growing more spores on the leaf surface. You might have that happen a little bit depending on sort of your micro environments. What you really want is coverage and then that eradicates.

[00:15:29] The way that the the bacillus really works, it really pokes holes into the cell wall of power mildew. So that's, and it just kinda leaks out and dies. And so it's botrytis , and or powder mildew. That's the major effects that it has on these pest diseases.

[00:15:43] But in those rare examples, I'll tell you, we've seen some results of our products being used in crops and tropical environments. If it can grow, it's creating more value. Now let's talk about something different. You put bacillus. Sargus into the ground in a soil treatment. It has tremendous effects on colonizing around the roots.

[00:16:01] And so that's where bacillus is actually known in its natural environment into the soil profile. So that's where we really see that the one two value. Now, that's not what we're using it for in grapes. Grapes, is for foliar control of. And mild diseases. But we have many other crops that we use bacillus for like corn, for root management and prolification around the diseases down there.

[00:16:27] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Robert?

[00:16:29] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so that's, yeah, excellent points from Nevada. So yeah, kind, kind of getting, talking about how we can use bacillus, you know, actually to go into the soil. So something like nematodes, you know, that's, that's a huge issue in grapes always has been. It's where we have, you know, root stocks engineered over the years to have, you know, nematode resistant root stocks.

[00:16:43] Again, not, not kind of the primary purpose of what we'd be looking to use stargus, and vineyards, but again, having a soil colonizer is fantastic. You know, a lot of the. The majority of diseases, especially in like the row crops, they're coming from the below ground. You know, you've got the pythium and lettuce.

[00:16:57] You've got like sclero, things like that, huge kind of soil-borne pathogens. So again, having something that you can add to the soil, you know, the soil already has its own fantastic suite of, naturally present. You know, bacteria, fungi, that's, you know, like Nevada said, that's what we got ab baus from, stargus from.

[00:17:12] So we're just kind of adding to that to kind of help boost the fight. And we can always kind of think of the interaction between pathogens and plants as kind of this arms race. There's a ways, you know, the pathogen kind of gets ahead by evolving slightly, and then you have the ho response from the plant and then the, the microbiome as well.

[00:17:27] So we're just trying to kind of tip the scales and our balance is how a good way to kind of think of biologicals as well. And I think as you were mentioning, kind of the, the fermentation process, and that's where we get our microbials from.

[00:17:37] Every microbe has primary metabolites. That's what's key to basically the survival of a microbe. But then we have secondary metabolites, and these are very highly specialized products that get produced. For bacillus, during that fermentation process, this is a, you know, these are unique metabolites. You know, metabolites are produced by the majority of. Micros, but the in particular can produce these like fantastic suite of very unique metabolites. So that's where the, a non-life product kind of comes into itself as well. By us able to understand what are those metabolites we're producing same fermentation, can we optimize those? And then do we, do we even need a live product as a result of that?

[00:18:12] Craig Macmillan: Um, it sounds like this could have a really dramatic impact or role in fungicide resistance management. I. What is that role? Or are we talking about going over completely to biological for a program or are we including in a rotation with other materials? What about organic growing where we have a, a little smaller suite of things that we can use?

[00:18:35] Nevada Smith: , I'll start with that if you don't mind.

[00:18:36] I think it's a great question and where I see it fitting is most synthetic pesticides for disease control are really affecting the mitochondria on the inside of the dupo. And where I see it fitting is the sort of one, two, I would say contact plus systemic. That's an a de-risk, your resistance management issues. But B, increase the likelihood that those products work better and longer.

[00:19:02] So today we position a product like Sargus other bacillus products in the marketplace to be in combination with a. SDHI chemistry, like Luna would be an example of that, or Pristine. We would see those integrated in the cycle of sprays, which is, it's very similar to why you use sulfur with those products as well.

[00:19:23] But I think, you know, as a winemaker, I want less sulfur my crop as possible, but obviously I want, as a farmer too, I want it to be clean as can be. So it's kind of this yin and yang overall.

[00:19:33] But for resistance management, I think you have to really think about the whole approach. And once again, back guardrails. Of what your restrictions are for you as a farmer and maybe the winemaker working together with them. How do you really get to the. And, you know, I, it's kind of a joke too, but we talked about earlier the word sustainability be very broad. Stroke. Well, I'm wanna farm into the future years. I wanna have that vineyard for a hundred years and not to replant it. So I'm really trying to keep as clean as possible all the time, especially for the over wintering stuff. And so to me early often protection, control contact plus systemic is the approach that we take at our farm as well.

[00:20:10] Craig Macmillan: When we say earlier, are we talking bud break, two inches, four leaves?

[00:20:15] Nevada Smith: For powder. Yeah. But then we could debate, you know, on these opsis issues and can cane issues.

[00:20:24] Craig Macmillan: When would I wanna put on a bacillus?

[00:20:27] Nevada Smith: I would start with a sulfur spray about bud break here, and then kind of rotate back into the bloom time for the first bloom spray, about 50% bloom, more or less. I kind of time it too, and if it's a little later, I'm okay with that. That would be the major time where I get the first shots on and that we, I would start with regalia, for example, just because it's a different mode of action. And then I'd come back with the bacillus here about seven to 10 days later.

[00:20:51] Craig Macmillan: And would you then include synthetic materials as well, I'm assuming.

[00:20:55] Nevada Smith: Yeah, on our farm we would typically our biggest issue is getting across the, the vineyard. And so we're looking to start off with a synthetic material first, just so we can get a nice, well, sulfur first, sorry. That probably like A-S-D-H-I chemistry. And then I'd start to think about how can I integrate my approaches to, being softer chemistry based through the rest of the season.

[00:21:17] Craig Macmillan: Does that make sense to you, Robert?

[00:21:19] Rob Blundell: Yes. And actually I'm just gonna jump back a little bit in our conversation. I just add a few more details kind of on this approach as well. So yeah, a little bit earlier, I kinda mentioned this arms race between the pathogen and the host and, you know, the available treatments that we have and really kind of a huge benefit of. Adding a biological, say, into your conventional program or just introducing more biologicals in general for your, your fungicides is you know, as, as Nata was saying, you know, a lot of the conventional chemistry is targeted in that mitochondria. It's a very specialized kind of function. It's there, it does a great job when it works well, but then.

[00:21:51] We get pathogen resistance, obviously. So there's kind of two types of resistance. You get qualitative resistance and quantitative. So qualitative is when there is a kind of sudden or abrupt loss in the ability of say, a fungicide to work. And then you have quantitative where it's kind of more of a gradual decline in effectiveness.

[00:22:08] And then you get kind of these varying levels of fungicide sensitivity versus that qualitative where you're having either resistant or a sensitive is isolate. And this. It's great. We're talking about grapes and powerdy mildew, 'cause this is one of like, this is like the classic textbook example. We kind of get taught in pathology about this because powerdy mildew, it has these really quick cycling times, produces a number of generations per season, very easily dispersed.

[00:22:28] So this is such a high risk kind of category for this fungicide resistance. So again, if we have just a whole range of availabilities in terms of different fungicide options, you know, chemistry, soft chemistry, biologicals various other options, we're just kind of increasing our chances of really. Just well, and one not having any pathogen resistance.

[00:22:49] Because again, as soon as you have that, then you have you, you really lose your options for your chemistries. So again, just, you know, introducing a few biologicals here and there, especially for, you know, grapes on the West coast, which is the amount of sprays we're having to do in other states where you have less sprays, you can kind of get away with kind of not considering your approach a little bit more.

[00:23:05] You don't have to kind of. Do your frack checks as much because maybe you're only doing one or two sprays. But here we have to be very, very concerned with our, you know, what products we're using and then at what timing they're using. So again, just having a biological to really kind of take the pressure off some of those chemistries is a, is a huge a huge, valuable source of preserving the life of your chemistry.

[00:23:23] And then have, like Nevada said, you know, having sustainable wines for the years to come.

[00:23:28] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that made me think of something. Is there a risk of resistance being developed to biological strategies?

[00:23:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. So yes.

[00:23:41] It's kind of a newer question. Yeah. So again, with a lot of these chemistries being very, very site specific function, all you have to do is have a very small mutation in your, say, powerdy mildew, to overcome that. And typically with biologicals, the typically, I say typically the mode of action is a little bit more broad.

[00:23:57] So very rarely are you gonna have an extremely like. , so like a lot of the chemistries buy into certain receptors that their job that do that really well. Biologicals don't tend to do that as much. They're more of a broad spectrum. That's why we see a, like for our fungicides, we see a range of control against a lot of different, you know, powerd mildew, we've got ascomiscies,, Presidio, my seeds, they pretty much do well across a range because they are more broad spectrum.

[00:24:19] Not to say that in time we're gonna start to see a decline. It's, you know, again, it's kind of really how we consider using them. And we. Whether we wanna like, fully rely on them or hey, that's, let's, let's use more of a, a combined approach. So again, we just really make that sustainable as well.

[00:24:33] So kind of to answer your question definitely it comes with risk but kind of inherently due to the more broad spectrum nature of biologicals, we're not too worried about the kind of resistance that we've seen developed as a result of c chemistries in that very, very specific function of a chemistry.

[00:24:48] Craig Macmillan: That makes a lot of sense. I know that you had mentioned you're farming in a more traditional fashion, Nevada, but your products, and obviously I know some folks in the organic area. What role do biologicals play in an organic fungicide program? Nevada?

[00:25:03] Nevada Smith: I think it's definitely at the core of your foundation of seeing how you are gonna approach powerdy, mildew and botrytus. Is it a typical, you know, seven spray system, which I'd say it's kind of typical for the northern coast markets or the coastal range. Or if you're in the valley floor are you more in that three to five applications for bio pesticides and, and what timing and how you're approaching those things are critical overall to assessing those on the organic.

[00:25:30] You don't have to be just organic. You could be, from a theoretical point of view, you can just choose to be this type of farmer, which is, I want to choose softer chemistries. And I think that's the mixed bag that we deal with with customers, a crop and the crop advisors out there.

[00:25:44] Rob Blundell: Yeah, and I was gonna say just to kinda add to that as well. So again, regardless whether you're doing organic or chemistry or biologicals, you know. Really key as well. Foundation is just having good cultural control as well. Something we haven't really touched on today, but again, you can really increase the effectiveness of your biological, your chemistry based on what you're doing in, in the vineyard.

[00:26:02] So, you know, things like, you know, canopy thinning, so if you're using say, a biological, you wanna try to colonize those berries, you wanna kind of thin out that kind of piece. You're getting a better spray coverage. You're also gonna, you know, reduce the humidity and that kind of pee of things like mildew you know, effective pruning in dry conditions.

[00:26:18] Navar was kind of talking about opsis, some of those canker pathogens. So those grapevine trunk diseases, that is still the most effective way to control a grapevine trunk disease is just to prune under the right conditions. 'cause you need that wound, that pruning wound to heal when it's, you're not gonna get a, let's see, you know, we got that ring coming in this week.

[00:26:33] So, grapevine trunk disease is dormant on those on the, on the parts of the vine. They're gonna be airborne. So you need to make sure there's a very good dry window. So again, like cultural practice is always, always key to whatever approach or biologicals or chemicals.

[00:26:46] Nevada Smith: I think the add to that, one of the biggest things I remember, I wanna say it's like in 2010, I saw Gubler trials, Gubler, uc, Davis, you know, famous for everything. And he had the trial and all he did was pull leaves. On the bunch closures, and I was like, wow, that looked amazing. And I said, what? What spray did you have on there?

[00:27:02] And they're like, nothing. We just pulled leaves and just literally that airflow coming across there, drying out, I assume it was just drying out the spores was amazing. I was like, wow. But then I started doing the cost analysis as a grower. I'm like, I can't send a crew there and pull leaves all the time. So,

[00:27:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's true. I mean, and that's why it's a mix of things. I think. It's integrated pest management. You, you know, you do want to get some airflow through there. You will probably do some canopy management, whether you do shoot thinning or leaf removal. Some of that also helps with coverage.

[00:27:32] Right. So using a mix of cultural and chemical or pesticide techniques is probably, probably wise. I'm not a pest control advisor, so I probably shouldn't say that. I. But I think I, you, they're not the first folks that have, have reminded me of that. And sometimes I know that, I think we kind of forget.

[00:27:49] I wanna change topics a little bit. There's a, I don't wanna say new, but new to me. Area bio fertilizers a totally different kind of strategy for plant nutrition Nevada. What is a bio fertilizer? What, how do they work? What is it and how does it work?

[00:28:05] Nevada Smith: So bio fertilizers can be a multitude of things, but once again, back to bio based on living organisms prior living organisms. We happen to have one that we're just launching this year into the grape industry called Illustra. It's based on this unique technology, UBP. Universal biological platform. I'm not trying to be a billboard ad here, but the reason why I'm bringing it up is it, it's really is a platform, which is interesting about it because it's, it's a technology that we can change and manipulate depending on how we go through the production cycle. And so we're creating tools that are more made for abiotic stresses.

[00:28:39] And so we're trying to deal with different stresses that. Crop can deal with. And so right now the core market that we've been using these products , for is like soybeans and corn.

[00:28:49] But as we think about the permanent crop markets of grapes, tree nuts, citrus, it's a little bit different as far as cycle and how you approach it. And so what we've seen through the data, these bio fertilizers is really trying to mitigate abiotic stresses. So what we're really mitigating is one, like you, you think about herbicide applications. You kind do a banded application near the tree trunk into about a third of the spray row. That herbicide usually hits that tree trunk.

[00:29:14] There is a cause and effect on the grapevine itself. What if you could put a tool down that was sprayed on the same time to mitigate that stress or de-stress it from even how much time and pressure it's having? So. Our product is really one of those tools today that's really focused on mitigating biotic stresses.

[00:29:30] Other things I can think about as a farmer is like salinity in the soil. The roots are pushing. You have water issues in California. We all talk about that. How do you mitigate the plant that still maximize the yield? So. Choosing the bio fertilizer today that's really focused on that, not just being a typical, you know, can 17 or un 30 twos based nitrogen based products.

[00:29:51] This is something else to bring into the marketplace. They're kind of more niche based, depending on what you're dealing with. But there there's several out there. There's, seaweed extracts would be a big one, right? That people use a lot around farms. There's humic, andic acids, organic acids in general. So those are the kind of the buckets of items today that farmers are choosing for bio fertilizers.

[00:30:14] Rob Blundell: Hmm. Yeah. And I can yeah, touch a little bit more on the, on the UBP illustrate product as well in terms of kind of how, how that really functions. And as Navar said, it's, you know, helping bounce back after, say, some herbicide damage, promoting that early season boost in biomass.

[00:30:27] So, you know, a product like this, this UBP will basically kind of. Inducing cell division. So in you know, increasing mitochondrial activity, more cell division essentially leads to more chlorophyll, more photosynthesis graded by a mass production. And it's actually done by acidifying the cell wall. So we acidify a cell wall. You get more what we have these, there's proton pumps on these cell wall.

[00:30:48] We're basically pumping in more protons, increasing the rate of that cell division. So we're basically yeah, boosting that in ocean season biomass. Therefore having that. You know, quicker resilience to say, you know, abiotic stresses like no said, whether it's salinity, salt, drought, water, things like that.

[00:31:02] So yeah, numerous, numerous benefits of some of these fertilizers.

[00:31:07] Craig Macmillan: Which actually talking about antibiotic stress, that it reminds me of something. I want to apply it to this, but I also want to go back. If you're using a live material, a bacillus or something, or if you have a, a bio fertilizer that may is are there living things in bio fertilizers.

[00:31:22] Nevada Smith: There can be,

[00:31:24] uh

[00:31:24] Craig Macmillan: be. Okay.

[00:31:25] Nevada Smith: We don't have anything in ours today, but I think there are, let's call the word impregnated Fertilizers. With living organisms. It could be trico, dermas, it could be other things, bacillus. And those are good, good tools to use.

[00:31:39] The hard part is like, you know, now we start to open the can of worms around like compost tea, like what's in there. And I think that's the biggest challenge that growers, those things do work as a whole. But then you start to run into the quality assurance, quality control. And I think that's where companies invest in the bio pesticide industry are really trying to. Tell the story and not just be perceived as snake oils and saying, Hey, replicated work we measure to this level, like CFU content and here's what we expect results to be consistently.

[00:32:08] And this is sort of the shelf life issues and we're kind of getting as a, you know, the world evolves. I think there's just this environmental things that people choose to do. And I think, you know, everything works. Just a question of how you integrate it into your own farming systems.

[00:32:24] Craig Macmillan: So speaking of environmental factors and antibiotic stress one thing that's occurred to me is that if I have something that's that's out there, either that's living or maybe maybe a fragile compound, how do things like drought and heat affect these materials in the field?

[00:32:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah. Yeah, very good question. I think historically that was always kind of. What people thought of the negative of biologicals were like, well, is only gonna work under certain conditions. You know, where, where have you tested it? So yeah, it's, it's a good question as well.

[00:32:50] It's , case by case dependent you know, certain extremes and temperatures, various conditions as well are gonna have effects on, you know, the, the longevity of that. But we, you know, we try to test it under. There a variety of conditions. And then for particularly something you know, with our fungicides as well for, for the grape industry, you know, these new be tested on a variety of key varietals as well.

[00:33:10] You know, it's, Hey, it might work for Chardonnay but not for Sauvignon Blanc. So that's important to evaluate as well, rather than just bring a product to market that like you, it's only gonna work on very certain aspects of a, of the single industry.

[00:33:22] Craig Macmillan: So heat as an example, , you have a fair amount of confidence that I can apply something in the, in the heat if I have a hot, dry condition in the summer that it's not going to. Break down those materials that are there from the fermentation or kill the live organism. We, we think there's a fair amount of resilience here.

[00:33:39] Rob Blundell: Yeah, again, definitely gonna be dependent on the, the type of microbe and the type of metabolite that it's producing. But you know, microbes in nature are exposed to these extreme conditions just naturally anyway, you know, so we have epi amplified slipping on the surface of products. So on the surface of.

[00:33:54] Structures. So like a grapevine, like a leaf. They're obviously out there and exposed to the elements every single day. And then the soil is a, is a chaotic environment. There's a lot going on in the soil. So microbes are just, you know, extremely resilient in nature themselves. So there's gonna be a, again it's gonna vary depending on, you know, the microbe and, and the product we're using.

[00:34:12] But there's good efficacy.

[00:34:16] Craig Macmillan: What's the future? What is the future looking like for biological products, living or extra?

[00:34:23] Nevada Smith: for the marketing hat on myself, not the farmer side.

[00:34:27] It, I think everything's coming down to specialized sprays. And if I had to vision what the features look like to me, it's gonna be about. Seeing robots down the vineyard. They have 18 different things and their little mechanisms and there's, they're just, they're analogizing what's going on in that grape cluster itself.

[00:34:44] They're spot spraying three or four things and they're going down the next level. That to me, is where we're gonna get down to the future, where the grapes themselves will naturally grow less chemicals to be used overall.

[00:34:54] but if you need to go through and really take care of a problem, you're gonna go through and take care of a problem. And I think that's where it's become very exciting to me. You're gonna put less of a prophylactic spray across all systems, and you're kind of really create some microenvironments where you think that Vine number seven got sprayed a lot. Vine number 21 has not been sprayed all season. Wonder why? Let's go check it out. Let's understand and investigate.

[00:35:18] The other big thing I think in grapes that's really interesting from exploratory research and development side for our company is like viruses. Viruses have not been addressed and it's becoming an issue. It's something I want to kind of explore and put on our docket of, you know, assessment stuff and how we can take new technologies to really improve virus transmissions. How do you mitigate once you have a virus? And it still produce that vine for another 10 plus years. So it gets quality and quantity out of it. Those are the kind of things interesting to me.

[00:35:50] Craig Macmillan: Robert.

[00:35:51] Rob Blundell: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, really good point, Sarah as well. And yeah, viruses in particular is, is something we see about in the grapevine industry. And yeah, often biological companies we're focused on, you know, the, the fungal issues, the bacteria, the, the nematodes. So that's, that's a huge area that really needs some more dedication.

[00:36:06] So there's gonna be some great technologies available for that in the future. Yeah, I think to speak to no Nevada's points on kind of the future of it, I think like a really kind of custom tailored approach is gonna be available for those that want it. Particularly from the pathology side of my interest.

[00:36:19] I think precision monitoring and detection of disease is just, I. Advancing leaps and bounds. So again, like, you know, going out there and doing scouting, hopefully people are gonna have a lot better tools available, available to 'em in the near future to really kind of understand crucial times in their season where disease is coming in.

[00:36:36] And then again, like I. Just having better tools to kind of really actually di inform us of the pathogen as well that's present rather than just again, a lot of, a lot of diseases is hard to pinpoint to an exact pathogen. We're lucky in grapes, powerdy, mildew, and, botrytis are very obvious. We know what those are, we think are some of the row crops.

[00:36:52] It could be a whole host of things. We've got nematodes, we've got various sore pathogens that we can't actually see. So I think yeah, improving disease diagnosis and detection, having these precision tools is gonna be a huge part of the future where biologicals can integrate themselves in as well.

[00:37:07] Craig Macmillan: That sounds pretty exciting. I wanna thank you both for being on the program. This has been a really great conversation. My guests today we're Nevada Smith. He is the head of Marketing North America and Robert Blande, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:37:22] Nevada Smith: Appreciate you.

[00:37:23] Rob Blundell: Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure.

[00:37:25] Craig Macmillan: And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing Vineyard team.

[00:37:29] Nevada Smith: Craig, one more thing. We gotta just drink more wine.

[00:37:40] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening.

[00:37:41] Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products gives back investing in both the community and the industry.

[00:38:06] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Pro Farm, an article titled, what are Bio Pesticides Plus Related Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast episodes. 117 Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 123. What's happening in biologicals for pest management and plant health? 266 Soft pesticide trial for powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot, and a healthy soils playlist.

[00:38:34] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast, and you can reach us at [email protected]. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Sustainable farming practices are essential to protect the environment, improve a long-term agricultural productivity and support healthy communities.

[00:00:08] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:27] And this week's marketing tip, we're going to take a close look at three areas where regenerative farming practices make a big impact, including water management, soil health, and habitat preservation,

[00:00:39] let's kick it off with water management. Water is one of agriculture's most critical resources. Sustainable farmers work carefully to both use water efficiently and protect quality. Anyone who has struggled to keep a plant alive knows that plants don't like too little or too much water and wine. Grapes are no different.

[00:00:57] Regenerative farming practices incorporate moisture sensing technologies to help farmers determine irrigation needs when placed in the soil. These devices estimate how much water is available to the plant, and farmers can use this information to avoid both over and under watering their crops.

[00:01:13] When it comes to rain, there's a greater impact than just irrigating the grapevines. Heavy rains can pull sediment, nutrients, and other farm inputs into neighboring water bodies. This causes imbalances in the water body ecosystem and could threaten the life within it.

[00:01:28] Plant matter can remedy these issues. Roots of living plants spread underground act as a filter that holds sediment in place. Preventing it from exiting the property. Vegetation above ground slows water down as it travels and eases the impact of rain as it hits the ground. Furthering the anti erosion benefits.

[00:01:46] The next time you drive past a vineyard, take a look at the plants growing in between the vine rows. Those cover crops are help protecting waterways.

[00:01:55] Now let's talk about soil health. Healthy soil is the foundation for a thriving farm and a resilient ecosystem. Sustainable practices aim to keep soils rich in nutrients full of life and resistant to erosion for years to come,

[00:02:08] rather than relying on guesswork. Farmers committed to sustainability conduct regular soil tests. This helps them make nutrient management plans that supply the plants with the food that they need without over applying fertilizer

[00:02:22] and back to those cover crops. Healthy soils have a lot of life in them. Microbes, fungi and bacteria are key players in decomposition, helping to convert and transport nutrients that are vital to a healthy plant.

[00:02:35] While cover crops are a fantastic way to enhance soil biodiversity, their benefits extend even further. They can provide refuge for beneficial insects, prevent erosion and improve water infiltration.

[00:02:48] Let's talk about habitat preservation. The influence of farming extends beyond the fence line. Regenerative farmers recognize that their land is part of a larger ecosystem. Protecting natural habitats and promoting biodiversity are key components of responsible land management. Many farmers set aside areas of their property to remain wild or minimally disturbed.

[00:03:09] These spaces serve as important refuges for wildlife and help preserve native plant and animal species beyond simply leaving areas undeveloped. Sustainable farmers often actively work to create and maintain habitats that encourage a diversity of species, including pollinators and beneficial insects.

[00:03:28] They may also take special measures. To protect endangered species where applicable.

[00:03:33] All of these regenerative practices are incorporated into the SIP Certified program. If you want to learn more about being a sustainable wine grower.

[00:03:40] Check out SIP certified.org and sign up to complete the program as a self-assessment for free. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

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Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage, discuss key grape and wine industry trends, from oversupply and vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts, and future trends, emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive.

Resources:

• REGISTER: 4/5/25 Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights Tailgate
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Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market.

[00:00:11] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with the Vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director.

[00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard, and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Audra Cooper, director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, central Coast Grape Broker At Turrentine Brokerage,

[00:00:41] they discuss key grape and wine industry trends from oversupply to vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts and future trends. Emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive.

[00:01:01] If you love infield education and are on California Central Coast on April 25th, 2025, please join us at the fungicide spring tailgate hosted at Cal Poly. In San Luis Obispo, California, Dr. Shunping Ding will share updated results from a 2024 study on fungicide programs using bio fungicides and their impact on grape yield and berry chemistry. Then we'll visit the Cal Poly Vineyard to explore new powdered mildew management technologies and discuss fungicide spraying programs. With farmers from throughout the central coast to register, go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes.

[00:01:44] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper. She's Director of Grape Brokerage with Turrentine Brokerage. And also, Eddie Urman, who's Central Coast Grape Broker with Turrentine Brokerage as well. And thanks for coming back. This is part two of a, of a, of an episode here. So, I really appreciate you folks making time to come back.

[00:02:00] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us back. We're excited to join you once again.

[00:02:04] Eddie Urman: Yeah, thanks for having us.

[00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So Audra, let's start with you. In our last conversation .

[00:02:17] And that was kind of where we left it that then started a conversation amongst the three of us afterward. We were like, okay, there's a lot more to talk about here. So let's do it.

[00:02:24] Can you give some examples of what you mean by getting ahead of changes?

[00:02:30] Audra Cooper: I think it's a sound business strategy to always try and stay ahead of the curve regardless of what component of business or what industry you're in, right? It's just a, a good strategy to have and a good philosophy to have. It's really important in this industry to continue to stay relevant and in order to stay relevant, you have to stay within the trend or ahead of the trend.

[00:02:51] Being behind the eight ball is, never a good thing . You need to be ahead of the curve. A good example of that is sustainable certification. And we still have these discussions on the daily and Eddie, you can talk to this too about how often we have to talk about if you're not sustainably certified, you are cutting your buyer pool, probably roughly in half, as I mentioned in the previous podcast, and you're limiting yourself.

[00:03:18] And the majority of the practices, most growers are probably already doing, and they're just not going through the certification process and getting that done. And if you look back a little over a decade ago, it was something that wineries were paying, you know, 25, 50 per ton more for, they were paying a premium.

[00:03:36] And then it became more of a, this is really nice to have. And so more and more growers We're doing it as a point of differentiation in their marketing. And now today it's almost a necessity. It's no longer something that's necessarily going to get you a premium price for your grapes. It's also not necessarily a point of differentiation any longer.

[00:03:55] It's a need to have.

[00:03:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Eddie, do you have anything to add to that?

[00:03:59] Eddie Urman: No, I think that's a great example. , Audra offered up.

[00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: So there's, trends around that, and there's a lot of certifications now, and I agree, I think a lot of folks don't need to be afraid of whatever the certification is, because you're probably doing a lot of those things already, a lot of common practices.

[00:04:13] I think that's an interesting insight that now it's kind of becoming expected or certainly a requirement for a lot of wineries.

[00:04:19] Let's talk about changes in acreage. That's where we left off last time when we were talking about the difference between vineyard removals, which have been suggested, recommended, et cetera, by a number of folks in the industry as we just are in oversupply period I've heard estimates that we may have 30 to 35, 000 acres of grapes, more than we need based on current demand.

[00:04:40] how accurate do you think that is? , how bad is it on the supply side?

[00:04:45] Audra Cooper: Well, I think you have a couple parts to that question, right? Let's dissect that a little bit and start with, we just got back from the Unified Wine Grape Symposium in Sacramento, and of course, during the State of the Industry, Jeff Bitter gave his annual synopsis of the nursery survey that they do annually on how many vines were sold, and they do a, A lot of data work in regards to what were removals and his number that he reported over the last two years was 37, 500 acres have been removed from the state of California.

[00:05:15] He believes based on their research that another 50, 000 acres need to be removed to reach the point of balance, assuming that consumption stays at its current rate or drops just a tiny bit.

[00:05:29] And when we look at our information internally, now we don't do a survey like Allied does, but we're tracking a lot of information, both with our winery partners as well as our grower partners in regards to who's doing what, and our number's a little bit higher, but we also go back four years technically going back to 2022, our number for the state of California is closer to about 50, 000 acres that have been removed, and, you know, I would argue that If consumption stays flat, certainly there will need more removals, but I don't know about 50, 000 acres more.

[00:06:04] That seems like an awful lot of acres that need to be removed. If his numbers are right, that would put us back to Basically global recession numbers, which would be around 500, 000 acres bearing.

[00:06:16] Craig Macmillan: right. in the Grape Crush Report, which is an annual report that's put out by, uh, California Department Of Food and Agriculture and the National Agricultural Statistics Service, there is a non bearing acres section in there, which I always find very interesting. Are we able to glean anything from that data in terms of what's been sold, what we think's gonna go back in, et cetera?

[00:06:39] I want to put a timestamp on this. So this is being recorded first week of February, 2025. So the unified was in 2025. The report that's coming out is going to be for the 2024 year.

[00:06:48] What can we learn from that non bearing acreage report?

[00:06:51] Audra Cooper: So there's two different reports. the acreage report will be coming out a little bit later in the year. We're going to have our crush report come out on February 10. I think you can glean two pieces of information, but both are very similar. And that is how much acreage has actually been removed and how light the crop truly was, particularly in the coastal regions for 2024.

[00:07:10] And so when we look at, for example, a 23 bearing and non bearing acreage information from the state of California they're reporting 446, 000 acres of bearing wine grapes. And if you take that at, say, 7 tons an acre, that's 3. 12 million tons. And we know with certainty at 7 tons an acre, That acreage seems pretty low.

[00:07:35] It doesn't seem realistic. So unfortunately, because it's a voluntary report when it comes to bearing versus non bearing acres, I do think that the state's probably about two years behind on real data trends. And so unfortunately right now, if you were to use that report as, you know, an analysis of the industry, you'd probably be a bit off.

[00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: got it, got it. Are there trends in what varieties are coming out and what varieties are going back in? Because that's often been the driving force for removals and replants, is chasing the marketplace. Are we seeing that kind of thing in California?

[00:08:11] Audra Cooper: Yeah, you know, I'll I'll touch on this a little bit and then turn it over to Eddie. It's, it's really difficult to predict in our industry how and what and when to plant, right? Because you are following a trend and a trend that you're going to be lagging behind in trying to meet because of the amount of time it takes to get a crop and a crop that is productive.

[00:08:31] And so oftentimes we're abridged, Yeah. Yeah. too far behind in regards to consumer trends. When we look at the central coast as a whole, there's certainly some segmented dynamics on what's being removed versus planted. And, you know, a good place to start, of course, is Paso. Eddie, do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

[00:08:51] Eddie Urman: Yeah we do see some trends of, varieties, being pushed out more frequently than others. You know, for the Central Coast, a couple that come to mind are, Zin, Pinot Noir Merlot is one that historically came out. If it's still there, still going out, and then more specifically, old vines is probably the more specific categories. You are seeing a lot of Cab being pushed, that are old vines, but likely to go back into Cab if it gets replanted.

[00:09:17] Audra Cooper: that's an interesting trend, because when we're looking at what was purchased based on the survey numbers that Jeff Bitter reported, he was talking about 12, 000 acres being planted based on their survey in 2024, and an overwhelming percentage was still red varietals, which really bucks the trend on what we're seeing observing boots on the ground.

[00:09:41] What we've mainly been seeing planted are more alternative whites and niche whites like Grenache Blanc, Pinot Grigio Astrotico, you know, very specific alternative whites in which they're trending with DTC and kind of smaller producers. Certainly we still see some redevelopment of Cabernet as well as Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, not so much on the red blender side or Merlot.

[00:10:06] Those seem to be being pulled out and not redeveloped.

[00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: Are we seeing any changes or trends around Okay, I'm pushing out Cabernet. I'm going to replant Cabernet. , am I going to replant the same amount of Cabernet? Am I using this as an opportunity to plant new ground? Do we have any information about that kind of thing?

[00:10:24] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, to give you hard data would be challenging. I don't know that anyone really has, a hard, fast calculation of what they do and don't do in regards to, the varietal makeup of a redevelopment. And I do want to clarify, I think there's a common misconception, particularly in the coastal regions that This is new net acreage.

[00:10:43] It's not new net acreage. A lot of this is redeveloped acreage, but it will be higher in productivity based on, you know, better vines, healthier vines, better spacing, new farming technology, and so forth. And so we'll have new net supply based off that acreage. In full production. When you look at the new developments, though, and it was save paso cab, for example, it's really difficult to say, Oh, well, let's do 50 percent cab and 50 percent red blenders.

[00:11:14] I mean, that's a tough decision to make. And you're really making a a pretty risky bet. I think for most people, they're going to plant to the site and also to the trend in the market. And so oftentimes, for example, again, Paso Cab, you're still going to have Cabernet largely go back in on those redevelopments.

[00:11:31] When you look at Santa Barbara County, I think they're diversifying a little bit more than they had been in the past. You're not largely just Chardonnay Pinot Cab. You're also seeing alternative reds and whites being planted in that area. Monterey County, when you look at that region, it tends to be a little bit more mixed bag, but still largely chardonnay then in the southern Monterey County area, cabernet and red blenders.

[00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Eddie?

[00:11:56] Eddie Urman: As far as the rate of what's going back in the ground, you know, in acres. I think as far as East Paso goes Monterey County, Santa Barbara County, we're seeing contraction as far as more acres coming out that are going back. The only area we do see more plantings that are new, it is in the West side of Paso. And it's substantial. I think there's a good amount of acres that have gone in the West side.

[00:12:17] Being from the growing side, I think we always wanted to diversify away from Cabernet and Paso Robles specifically, but the reality is the majority of people still want to buy Cabernet. So if anything, I'm worried that growers expect other varieties to try to diversify their portfolio that might not match the demand.

[00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. And speaking of demand. , we're talking about land and grapes, what's the current state of the, the bulk wine market where you'd expect a lot of the sovers to go where are we kind of at and what do you think are going to be the impacts on the bulk wine market with the replanting?

[00:12:53] Audra Cooper: currently right now, listed available with us is about 28 million gallons. We anticipate that it will climb to probably 30, maybe past 30 million gallons at the peak of listing this year, which is typically early summer. In large part, that's still 2023 vintage. However, we do still have some 21, 22, and of course now new 24 is being listed.

[00:13:18] The rate of listing is not being eclipsed by the rate of, you know, attrition decline in regards to bulk wine being removed from the market, whether that's through sales or higher and better use internally for those who are listing it. So we still have an off kilter balance there and certainly dramatically an oversupply and that dynamics likely to continue for the next couple of years until we see consumption increase and, and therefore increasing demand for new products.

[00:13:45] Typically when we've seen these large increases in availability, what's gotten us out of it is the negotiants who are developing new brands, particularly when we look back to the premiumization sector. We saw a lot of middle tiers, you know, the likes of Duckhorn and Joel Gott and several others who were growing programs that they may have had for a couple of years, but they were very small and they've broadened those to other Appalachians or California and went to the bulk market first to kind of grow those programs before they started grape contracting.

[00:14:16] So we're going to need to start seeing that trend in order to clean that market up.

[00:14:19] Craig Macmillan: And so that's, that's basically good news, you think, for the bulk wine supply going down the road.

[00:14:23] Audra Cooper: I think. In the future, it is in the short term. It's rather painful to have that amount of availability, right? We've been tracking this for the better part of three decades, and there's never been a single calendar year in which we've carried this amount of inventory, particularly going into last harvest, it was the highest inventory we'd ever seen in our tracking.

[00:14:44] Keep in mind that this is what's listed available for us. This is not going out and taking inventory of what everyone has in tank that they're not necessarily going to bottle or they don't have a program for. So you can easily maybe double that number and that's what the likely availability is.

[00:15:03] Craig Macmillan: Eddie what do you think is going to happen with pricing on on bulk wine? Yeah, I know that you're a specialized in grapes. But obviously those growers are concerned about what's going to happen to those grapes. From the grower side, how attractive is it right now to turn product into bulk wine, do you think?

[00:15:21] Eddie Urman: I would say it's very, very, very much not attractive. Uh, we would. Not advocate for that in most scenarios for growers at this time regarding bulk pricing, you know, bulk wine, obviously we have bulk people who have better insight than Audrey, but in general, it's not going to be good. We don't, we don't foresee an increase in price as. we're obviously seeing an increase in supply of bulk wine, that typically is going to still have more downward pressure on price. And as far as growers bulking wine, it's, I think, a very risky game right now. You know, bulk wine does have a life expectancy, to Audra's point earlier. And, know, if you bulk it now, you have to sell it eventually to make your money back.

[00:16:02] And then on top of that, you have to carry those costs with today's interest rates.

[00:16:06] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. So, prices for bulk wine right now, I'm guessing have been on the decline for probably a couple of years. Is that accurate?

[00:16:13] Audra Cooper: Yeah, that's an accurate statement. If I were to really think about how long they've been on the decline, I would say probably mid, mid calendar year 2023 is when we start to see the downturn of the market be very, you know, impactful on pricing and overall demand. And of course, increasing inventory is really when that trend started.

[00:16:34] I want to kind of go back to what Eddie was talking about regarding you know growers making bulk wine and and how risky that is, you know, we have a saying internally and it's so Elementary, but it's so applicable to these times. Your first loss is typically your best loss or your least loss and so it's really important when you're looking at alternative to market Whether or not you're actually going to be able to optimize how much investment you have in that product, and more often than not, when you're making grapes into bulk wine as a grower, you're not going to have the wherewithal to compete with a competitive set, other wineries, or large growers whose business models incorporate making bulk wine as a producer.

[00:17:15] So you really end up being on the losing end of that game.

[00:17:19] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you see price pressure on growers? Are prices being negotiated down or contracts being changed or not renewed? And if so, does that vary by region, do you think? I know you specialize in the Central Coast, but just from what you know.

[00:17:34] Eddie Urman: I think for the Central Coast, it's easy to say that there's still unfortunately more cancellations or evergreens being called and their contracts being executed. There is some activity of people being willing to look at stuff and even make offers, which is good news, but typically it's at a lower pricing.

[00:17:51] Craig Macmillan: This is for both of you if I'm a grower and I'm facing this situation both what I can get for my price and then also what the chances are of me selling my stuff on the bulk market, is this a situation where we're maybe better off not harvesting all the crop or mothballing some vineyards for the short term?

[00:18:08] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the less we pick this upcoming season that doesn't have a home, you know, the better off if it's picked for, uh, a program where it's actually needed, that's great, but bulking one on spec or taking in more fruit because it's cheap or very, you know, very low cost is not going to be a good thing. good overall thing for the industry.

[00:18:30] As far as mothballing, we've talked a lot internally. This is where the conversation came in last time about making tough decisions and being intentional about how you're going to farm or you plant going into the season as a grower is, you know, mothballing is very controversial.

[00:18:45] I think for our team, as far as whether it truly works and can you truly come back after it's done, if you're mothballing a Vineyard that's at the end of his life expectancy. You're probably just delaying your pain one more year. Cause it probably will not come back. If you're mothballing a five year old vineyard, maybe it's something that's a different story, but a real tough decision.

[00:19:06] Mothballing a young producing vineyard most people are not in that situation.

[00:19:12] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I want to expand a little bit on the, the mothballing and not harvesting fruit. I think it's really important that, you know, while this is a rather negative time in the industry and it's really easy to be very pessimistic. I do want to be optimistic about the needed outcomes and the solutions and the pain that's still rather prevalent in our industry to get kind of to the other side of being healthy.

[00:19:36] I do want to be optimistic about some of the newer plantings that we've seen basically since 2012. There is a lot of new to middle aged vineyards that I really hope continue to stay in the ground. They need to stay in the ground because they are the highest and best fit for some of the newer style products in wine.

[00:19:54] And we need to be able to continue to keep our wine quality elevated. And so while certainly there's vineyards that need to be removed or, or mothballed and taken out of production, there's also the flip side of that where there's a huge need for some of the. better vineyards and the more sought after vineyards or the vineyards that are priced right for the program that they're going into.

[00:20:16] So this is kind of a double edged sword in the sense that yeah, we need plenty of production to be pulled out of the supply chain, but at the same time there's a huge need for very specific supply. So I want to be very careful in classifying those items.

[00:20:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that brings me to my next question Audra there must be regional differences. Yeah. Yeah. In these patterns, I would assume some areas maybe are a little bit more protected from this kind of contraction or, or expansion over supply and others probably really bearing the brunt. I would guess. Do you see patterns at the state level?

[00:20:48] Audra Cooper: I see patterns at the state level, but I can even bring it down to the central coast, even so far down to like even Paso right now. And Eddie and I have been talking about this a lot. You know, we saw a huge uptick in available inventory for east side AVA Cabernet and red blenders and even some of the white. Over the last two years, particularly last year in 2024,

[00:21:11] and now we're seeing that dynamic shift from the east side climbing and available inventory. And now the west side is where we're seeing most of our listings come from over the last couple of weeks. And so we're now seeing it kind of push into more of the premium luxury tiers as far as this oversupply and the contraction and the kind of the pain points.

[00:21:29] And so we are moving through the channels. Which I know again is, is difficult to hear and it's a very negative position to be in the industry, but it's also a sign that the market and the supply chain is moving through what it needs to move towards in order to come out the other side of this thing on a healthier end.

[00:21:48] We comment on this a lot where. You know, it's going to get worse, dramatically worse for a short period of time before it gets better. And we're starting to see kind of the beginning of that position.

[00:21:58] Craig Macmillan: What about the San Joaquin Valley? San Joaquin Valley?

[00:22:02] Audra Cooper: is actually typically leading the charge in regards to our market, particularly our supply aspect of things, both in grapes and bulk wine. And so when we see A retraction in our industry or oversupply. We typically see it in the interior of the central valley first And when we see kind of a new, Growth stage we see it over there first as well And so they're ahead of us by one to two years Currently and then it kind of follows into the central coast and then up into the north coast and what i've seen Historically when you look back at markets and you look at kind of the time horizons of these things how? Long they live and what pushes the momentum of these markets. You'll typically see it last longer in the Central Valley, tiny bit shorter in the Central Coast and a lot shorter in the North Coast. The North Coast usually doesn't see quite as long of a pain period as the other two regions do. And there's, there's a lot of reasons that we probably shouldn't get into today because it would be a whole nother topic of conversation.

[00:23:00] But I do think that the Central Coast right now has got another challenging year ahead of it. But also I think that the on ramp to a more positive industry is a little shorter than what I think people are giving credit for too because a lot of the work is being done, we just got to get through these major pain points first.

[00:23:19] Craig Macmillan: We know that consumers drive demand for wine and hence wine grapes but are there other economic forces or political forces or regulatory forces that put pressure on this grape market aside from just consumer demand?

[00:23:32] Eddie Urman: again, but 1 of big 1s is, put, it could put pressure to the positive or negative on our industry. We don't really know yet. It's still to be determined. when I read this question, the other thing came to mind to me is, is from a grower's perspective ensuring that you're growing. The compatible correct grapes for your region or varieties or it's staying within where you need to be. If the market for, for example, Chardonnay went through, went to the moon, it doesn't mean everyone in Paso should plant Chardonnay,

[00:24:00] even though that's the hot variety, right?

[00:24:02] It wouldn't be the best variety for most areas of Those are some of the quicker things that come to my mind. I'll probably elaborate.

[00:24:10] Audra Cooper: I think to expand upon that, certainly regulations regarding, you know, water usage and irrigation is is a huge factor. And, and Eddie, you could probably do an entire podcast on that particular topic. And I'm sure that you guys have actually, Craig in addition to that, you really look at the economic environment in which people are growing grapes and producing wine.

[00:24:32] And the economy of it is getting, you know, more and more difficult. The margins are getting much smaller. You can argue that more often than not people are taking losses year over year. And that puts a ton of pressure on their cash flow. In addition to that, when you look at the lending environment as well, that's become a lot more say, non conducive to being able to continue with business. In a lot of cases,

[00:24:57] we have a handful of clients, if not more, who are questioning, do I prune because I don't necessarily have the same operational loan that I've had over the last couple of years and I've been taking low grape prices in order to survive to the following year, but you can only do that so long before it catches up to you.

[00:25:14] And then we have another group or another segment of clientele who will prune, but may end up having to throw in the towel sometime, you know, mid summer or sooner because they don't have enough capital to continue with the grapes or you know, not sold. And then you look at the producer side on the winery side, and, and they too are getting crunched.

[00:25:32] You know, we often talk about how low grape prices are, but we forget that, you know, wineries are getting crunched on their bottle price as well in order to nationally distribute. You know, what you see on the shelf as a price point does not necessarily mean that that's a price point to that producer. So the economies of this industry are getting more and more difficult every single year.

[00:25:52] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, especially, are you seeing trends towards things like mechanization to try to keep costs down?

[00:25:58] Eddie Urman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean mechanization and then automation and the vineyard or two, the , you know, hottest topics so here. And people were definitely making the efforts to try to implement those as they come available. The difficult thing can be oftentimes it's investment in equipment. That's very expensive and you have to truly consider is it going to, is it economically feasible to invest in that equipment and what's the payout time going to be based upon the amount of acres you're farming or how many passes you can do with that piece of equipment. So we're, we're seeing it happen, which is great.

[00:26:31] It's innovation and it's heading us in the right direction, but at this point, a lot of it is still quite expensive and not everyone could participate for cost reasons. Yeah.

[00:26:41] Craig Macmillan: Going forward, we've talked about this a little bit in terms of how different regions are kind of more paying for longer and some a little bit less and et cetera. And this then translates into the wines that are out there. Audra, you'd mentioned you know, the potential of negotiants to come in and help to alleviate the market.

[00:26:59] That's definitely what happened in the nineties from my memory. We saw a lot of negotiate brands pop up because there was a plentiful supply for some of those years. Are there things that companies or government or grower associations, are there things that organizations could do to advise growers or help move people in the right direction in terms of kind of what they need to do? Is the viticulture consulting community? Taking these things into account Eddie, let's start with you,

[00:27:29] Eddie Urman: that's a big question. there are plenty of people giving good advice in the industry and growers do have resources to reach out to, but it's very difficult to hear information that doesn't. Align with what you would like to do, right? So taking out our emotions from this from the equation and say, okay, does it really make sense to do this or to do that? Where where's that going to leave us and is that going to be in a position? To move forward in a better, know in a better new industry or new, you know New time in this industry when things rebound there's information out there, but it is difficult extremely difficult right now for growers and wineries to make decisions

[00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. That's the challenge when you have something like this, where it's individual decisions that lead to mass outcomes. It's hard for me as an individual to say, okay, well, I'm going to do my part. I'm going to keep these 10 acres out of production. Especially when I can see that I could sell to somebody. It's a tough go. Go ahead, Audra.

[00:28:24] Audra Cooper: So I'm gonna go off on a tangent here a little bit.

[00:28:26] Craig Macmillan: do.

[00:28:28] Audra Cooper: I don't know, you might not welcome this one. So, you know, some people know this about me. I'm a pretty big Tony Robbins fan. And, You know, for some of you who don't know who that is, he's a self help guru that does a lot of different events and has written a lot of books and he has a philosophy and a saying that he utilizes through most of events, which is where focus goes, energy flows.

[00:28:51] And unfortunately, we have not done the best of jobs being positive about ourselves in the industry, out there in the media, that ultimately is consumed by the masses. And so, I've been on this huge bandwagon about, when we're talking to the media, obviously we need to be rooted in reality, but we need to be as optimistic as we can about who we are and what our why is.

[00:29:16] And I think oftentimes when we have these downturns, and this one's a pretty deep one, admittedly. That's the rooted in reality, right? But in these downturns, we tend to turn very, very pessimistic and we fail to remember that to some degree or another. We've been here before, and there have been a lot of innovations and activities and work and leadership that have pulled us out of it, and so we need to remember our history a little bit, I think would be my recommendation there, and I think a lot of the associations do a great job In reminding everyone what the historical background is and in some of our why Paso Robles Wine Country Alliance is a great example of what an association can do for a region on a national and international level.

[00:30:03] I will continue to sing their praises because I think they've done a beautiful job in what they've done over the last 15 years. When you look at You know, what's happening from a government and regulation standpoint, you know, we have to band together as a community and be loud voices. We can't just rely on our neighbor or our representative to be our representative voice.

[00:30:25] We need to make sure that we continue to be out there and loud. The other thing too is. We have a community, but we have a tendency to not keep collaboration consistent, and I would love to see our industry collaborate a little bit more, particularly on social media. I know that there's a lot of people probably listening to this right now thinking, why is social media even a remote solution?

[00:30:48] But the amount of consumption from the younger generation that are now of drinking age that have not adopted wine as a beverage of choice, consume a huge amount of social media, more than they do TV, more than they do reading, more than any other culture. aspect of information gathering or any other platform that's available to them.

[00:31:10] And we have an opportunity to band together and collaborate and change the algorithm regarding wine on social media. And I love to see us do that. We haven't done it. And there's various methods of doing that. And again, could probably be another podcast. I'm by no means the foremost expert on that, but our collaborative efforts.

[00:31:27] We'll just drop that because I don't even remember exactly

[00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: I think that's sound advice And it's always been a challenge. We do have some statewide Organizations that have that mission. They have a lot on their plate But I agree with you. I think that that is definitely the route or it seems to be the route There's more more research coming out that's showing that Not just the time but also like where people get their news You know, it shows you how important that is to them, how important , that venue is to them.

[00:31:55] Eddie Urman: 1 of the things for me to extrapolate on that a little bit. What Audra was talking about is unified at the industry hot topics. Um. Rock mcmillan talked for a minute. The ceo of silicon bank about the wine industry Not itself and taking market share from itself, but taking market share from wine from beer from spirits They've clearly done that to us.

[00:32:18] I mean It's a competition. It is what it is, and we've not done a great job marketing To younger, younger generations, everybody knows that everybody repeats it, but what are we going to do about it? And how can we as an industry figure out how to do a better job getting people exposed to wine, getting people to enjoy wine?

[00:32:37] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I like that, Eddie. It's time to get aggressive and it's time to re enter wine in the conversation of culture and being part of the daily lifestyle. We've let it kind of fall by the wayside and it's time to get aggressive about what wine can be and was and should be here in the near future.

[00:32:57] Craig Macmillan: right. You'd mentioned, you know, what's happened in the past. Audra, are there lessons that we learned that we are forgetting from 20 years ago or lessons that we should have learned 20 years ago that might help us now?

[00:33:11] Audra Cooper: it's, that's an interesting question, and I think it is a great question of merit, because history does tend to repeat itself I think we need to get better about predictive trends, and I don't know what the answer is to that, I just know that we need to do that and again, we, we kind of talked about it early in the podcast here that, you know, it's really hard to plant a trend, because you're usually behind the eight ball on it.

[00:33:38] And I think that we need to get better about how we plan for the future. I think we forget that, you know, Robert Mondavi and the Gallo's and, and countless others who came before us really went out. To the masses and marketed wine, not just their brands or their programs. They were out there to make sure that they were representing the wine industry and the product that we produce first and foremost.

[00:34:06] And so I think there's that element. It's not necessarily missing, but it's not loud enough and it's not aggressive enough. And so we definitely need some leaders to come forward in that regard and really push the initiatives. That we fought so hard to stay in business for. When you look back historically to, I think we have a tendency to kind of do the blame game a little bit.

[00:34:28] Like, you've planted too much over there on the coast and you've removed too much of the northern interior and you're charging too much up there in the north coast. And the reality is there's a place. For everyone to play and instead of being the competitive set that we are, again, to Eddie's point that Rob McMillan made as state of the industry, we should be looking at how do we take market share from our competitors, which are beer and spirits, RTDs, and so forth, not from each other.

[00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like it's a time when we need to see some new leadership step up or some folks to take leadership roles which is always kind of scary.

[00:35:08] Audra Cooper: It is. It's, it's, you know, here's the, the beautiful thing about emotion though. It's usually a call to action. So if we get scared enough. Someone will do something and I think we're just about there, and, and there's probably people working in the shadows that we're not aware of that will probably come forward here soon, you know, there's great leadership at CAWG level with their association as well as the Wine Institute, they're working hard every single day to be lobbyists , for our industry and to be making sure that they're representing our issues and finding solutions, solutions.

[00:35:40] You know, one of the big things that I've learned over the last couple of years, particularly this last year, is, is that we are all responsible for our future and making sure our future is compelling. And so we need to be supporting those associations and paying attention to the relevancy of the information that's out there.

[00:35:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's excellent. This is a, again, kind of a, kind of a tangent and it may not lead anywhere, but I, I just had this thought. You were talking about sustainability certifications and how important they are for growers now. Do you think that communicating the sustainability story of wineries and probably done at an individual level and then spreading out from there do you think consumers would respond to that?

[00:36:17] Eddie Urman: Yeah it's hard to say because marketing is not my forte, but I, it sure seems like with the trends as far as health conscious and all this, I think it would resonate with them. It really should. And it's something we should probably capitalize on more as an industry in general. Yeah.

[00:36:33] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Well do you have, does anybody have like a final message or one thing you would tell growers on this topic? Audra,

[00:36:40] Audra Cooper: Well, we covered a lot of topics today, and I think I'll leave everyone with the same thing I said earlier, Where focus goes, energy flows, and if we're focused on the negative, and we're focused on how tough the industry is right now, that's where we're going to be. If we're focused on solutions, we'll find one that works, and it's going to be different for everyone.

[00:37:04] Everyone's solution may look a little bit different. This is both an individual and industry wide issue that we're facing currently. with the downturn in the industry and the extreme oversupply. But I have faith that the work that's already being done will pull us out of this. We just need to get innovative in how we market to new consumers.

[00:37:26] Craig Macmillan: That's great. Where can people find out more about you folks?

[00:37:29] Eddie Urman: on our website. , you can get our information on there and reach out and contact us. Anything else Audra. Right.

[00:37:44] Audra Cooper: Year you can go to our social media Turrentine Brokerate or you can find me at GrapeBroker on Instagram. You can also call us or email us or text us if you'd like, or smoke signal us too, although please don't carry fires.

[00:37:50] Craig Macmillan: Anyway, right. Well, thank you so much. I guess today we're Audrey Cooper she is a director of great brokerage at Turrentine. Brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is the central coast, great broker Turrentine. Thank you both for being here and having such an interesting conversation. It's an important topic with a lot of question marks, lots and lots of questions, but I think we had some good things come out of it and I really appreciate it.

[00:38:11] Audra Cooper: All right. Thank you.

[00:38:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories. Operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling, custom panels, and special projects. Their customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed companies, backyard gardeners, researchers, and more.

[00:38:45] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turntine brokerage. Their previous interview on the Sustainable Winegrowing podcast, that's number 259, wine Grape Market Trends for 2024, plus other sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, including 265. How to stand out on social media in 2025 and 268 how to tackle leadership transitions successfully.

[00:39:10] If you'd like this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review.

[00:39:16] You can find all of the [email protected]/podcast and you can reach us at [email protected]. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: A label can provide a lot of information about a wine. The next time you walk down the wine aisle, look for common terms and symbols like vintage, place of origin, percent alcohol, and even the SIP certified logo.

[00:00:12] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] Many labeling requirements in the United States are defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. In this week's marketing tip, we are giving you a green wine glossary. Five common wine designations, defined, so you'll wonder no longer.

[00:00:45] Number one is vegan. Not every wine fits the vegan lifestyle. During the winemaking process, small particles can cause haziness or unwanted flavor properties. Winemakers can add a fining agent that will bind to these tiny particles and make them large enough to be filtered out. Many fining agents are animal based. Egg whites, casein, and gelatin. Wine that was fined with any of these materials cannot be considered vegan. Vegan wines include those that were either fined with a non animal based agent. Like bentonite clay, or not find at all.

[00:01:19] Number two is natural. There is no official or regulated definition of natural wine. That being said, most understand it as a wine that was made through a minimal intervention, no additive approach. Natural wines are fermented with native yeasts versus adding yeast. They cannot be filtered or fined, nor can winemaking additives be used, except for a small amount of sulfur pre bottling. If you are told that the wine you're drinking is natural, remember to ask what it means.

[00:01:48] Number three is organic. Wine must meet several requirements in order to be labeled as an organic wine. The vineyard must be certified organic, the winemaking process must be certified organic, and the final product must contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, no additives, and no preservatives. Please note that wine made with organic grapes are not the same as organic wines. While this definition means that a hundred percent of the grapes used were certified organic, Other ingredients in the wine do not have to be organic, but do note that they cannot be genetically engineered. Another thing to keep in mind is that organic designation varies between countries.

[00:02:25] Number four is biodynamic. The biodynamic farming principle is guided by nature's rhythms and the understanding that the vineyard is a self contained ecosystem where all elements live and work together. Like organic, synthetic inputs are prohibited in biodynamic farming. But unlike any other program, the timing of biodynamic practices aligns with the lunar and celestial cycles. This is because of the belief that moon phases in planetary positions affect the flow of sap and energy in the vines, and that there is value in keeping practices in sync with these forces. Demeter International is the most recognized certification body for biodynamic wines. For a wine to bear the seal, the grapes must be grown in adherence to the biodynamic principles, and the wine must be made through certified biodynamic processes.

[00:03:12] And number five is sustainable in agriculture. Sustainability means adhering to practices that protect social and environmental health while enhancing economic vitality. sustainably grown grapes are farmed similarly to organic and biodynamic grapes. All programs seek to protect human and environmental health through reducing inputs and conserving. And regenerating natural resources where sustainability differs is that it looks beyond the farm and into the business itself, including worker safety, community relationships, continuing education and accounting and budgeting, just to name a few of the areas that certification bodies like SIP certified address in the standards. Certification also extends from the vineyard and into the winery.

[00:03:55] Did you know that your wine can include the SIP certified seal on the label if it's made with 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether it is estate or purchased? Simply go to SIP certified. org to apply today. So your customers will know that your wine was made through practices that protect the people and the planet.

[00:04:13] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
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• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
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• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
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Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis, and sour rot can be a complex challenge. Andy Fles, Vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan, shares insights from his USDA Sustainable Ag Research Education producer grant project. The project compares two pest management approaches: a 'soft' pesticide program and a conventional one. Andy conducted the experiment using his on farm sprayer, providing real-world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality.

Resources:

• REGISTER: April 25, 2025 | Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights
• 80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management
• 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light
• 197: Managing the Sour Rot Disease Complex in Grapes
• 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money
• 235: Battling Fungicide Resistance with Glove Sampling
• Rufus Issacson, Michigan State University
• Shady Lane Cellars Secures $11K National Farming Grant
• Timothy Miles, Michigan State University

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot can be a complex challenge.

[00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director.

[00:00:21] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Andy Fles, vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. Andy shares insights from his USDA Sstainable Ag Research Education Producer grant project. The project compares to pest management approaches, a soft pesticide program and a conventional one.

[00:00:50] Andy conducted the experiment using his on farms sprayer, providing real world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality.

[00:01:10] If you'd like to learn more about this topic, then we hope you can join us on April 25th, 2025 for the fungicide spraying evolving strategies in Grower Insights tailgate taking place in San Luis Obispo, California. Dr. Shunping Ding of Cal Poly will share updated results from a study on the efficacy of different fungicide programs containing bio fungicides.

[00:01:34] Then we will head out into the vineyard to learn about new technologies for integrated pest management and talk with farmers from different growing regions about their program. Now let's listen in.

[00:01:49] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Andy Fles. He is the vineyard manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. And today we're going to talk about a pretty cool little project. He's got going looking into two different pesticide programs. Thanks for being on the podcast, Andy.

[00:02:03] Andrew Fles: Yeah, my pleasure, Craig.

[00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So you have a grant from the USDA sustainable agriculture research and education program. To look at what you call a soft pesticide program for your vineyard in Michigan and comparing it to what we would call a sustainable or sustainable conventional program. What do you define as a soft pesticide program?

[00:02:25] Andrew Fles: Well, that's kinda just a, a term that we applied to identify it. I didn't want to use organic because I thought that there would be a good chance we would utilize things that are considered by the industry to be very soft in terms of you know, they're not a harsh chemical or a carcinogenic, a known carcinogenic compound.

[00:02:49] But something, for example, like. Like horticultural grade peroxide, which goes by several different trade names. So that's just, it's hydrogen peroxide and it is a disinfectant that turns into water and oxygen. So it's pretty Soft in terms of what it does to beneficials and, and plants and, and such.

[00:03:11] We utilize some of those products already in our spray program. But combined also with, we're probably 50 percent organic in terms of what we spray out. for fungicides, pesticides, insecticides. And so we're still altering in some synthetic compounds.

[00:03:28] And we wanted to compare that, what we currently do, to something that was much softer, like only soft compounds. Something that could be considered a OMRI certified organic program, or, or almost, right? Like maybe there's just one or two things that are very soft, but not technically OMRI certified.

[00:03:49] Craig Macmillan: Right, and I do want to , get into the weeds on that a little bit later. Cause it's a, it's an interesting, Set a program that you've got going and I have lots of questions about them. What inspired this project?

[00:04:01] Andrew Fles: I think just that continued movement towards investigating what works here in the east. You know, we, of course, get more wetting events and, and wetting periods that cause more fungal issues here compared to the west coast. And so we really, you know, we have to have an eye on sustainability. Certainly at Shady Lane, we really push for that.

[00:04:25] But we also need to make sure that we have a marketable crop. We need to make sure the wine quality is, is high and acceptable for our standards. And so you know, if we're talking about, you know, every year is quite different here. We can get a, like, for example, in 2024, very wet in the first half of the year, very, very dry in the second half.

[00:04:51] And, and then, which was quite different from 23 and quite different from 22 and so on and so forth. so, so some years we need to kind of step in and use a synthetic product here at this key time or, you know we need to protect our, our, our wine grape quality.

[00:05:07] Craig Macmillan: What are the primary pests and diseases in your area?

[00:05:11] Andrew Fles: So we have issues with the usual suspects that powdery mildew, of course. That's, that's fairly, I think if you're on top of your game, that's, it's pretty controllable. Even with soft products here it's just a spray frequency and coverage issue.

[00:05:27] Downy mildew is something that can be quite challenging in certain years.

[00:05:31] And there's, and there's less tools in the toolbox to use for that as well. And so you gotta, you gotta be on top of that with scouting preventative, like canopy, you know, canopy management practices that deter too dense of a canopy or, or clusters that are. hidden behind several layers of leaf.

[00:05:53] Those are going to cause problems for you no matter what you're spraying, synthetic or organic, right? So, so we try and utilize all those things and and then we, we can also have issues in some years with botrytis and even sour rot and tight clustered varieties. So, so we were looking at sour rot and botrytis in the, in the cluster analysis of this portion of the , project.

[00:06:18] Yeah, we have some locations can struggle with grape erinium mite. That's becoming more and more prevalent here. Wasn't an issue four years ago. Not, not really up in, up in northern Michigan anyway. So that's becoming more and more of an issue. And then we always struggle with rose chafers. It's a, it's a grub that, you know, comes out for six weeks and really terrorizes the vines.

[00:06:49] And for that, for that pest, we really walk the line of the economic damage threshold, right? So, so a little, you know, we're going to see rose chafers every year. Some years are better than others. And what is our acceptable damage, you know? And so, once we see the rose chafers really getting dense in number, and also, you know, munching on a few leaves is one thing, munching on the clusters and the shoot tips is another thing.

[00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, I'm unfamiliar with this this pest. It, skeletonizes leaves, but it also will attack flower clusters and, and grape clusters in the early stages of development. Is that right?

[00:07:34] Andrew Fles: Pretty much all green tissue. Yeah, a bunch of shoot, shoot tips leaves are probably, you know, their preferred source, I think, but anything tender. And so if, if the timing is just right where the, the inflorescences are, are you know, just coming out when the, when the beetles hatch, then they can really go for those cluster tips and, and shoot tips.

[00:07:59] While we're scouting for this pest, we not only do the, you know, the density numbers and annotate that, but we look at, you know, how many are actually eating leaves versus shoot tips and clusters.

[00:08:13] Craig Macmillan: Interesting, interesting. What is the design of your project and what varieties are we talking about? And what kind of variables are you measuring and how are you measuring them?

[00:08:25] Andrew Fles: this is a farmer grant as opposed to a research grant. , it's tailored to folks that want to do on, on farm trials. And we want to do. Something in a significant enough volume, you know, that, that some that it would apply, it would be more applicable in the real world.

[00:08:45] So for example you know, at a university they might do this randomized plots, you know, and they're using a backpack sprayer because they're, they're applying you know, three vines here, three vines there, scattered all throughout the block. And we wanted to use the sprayer that we actually use.

[00:09:04] Um, and we wanted to do a bigger sections. And so what we did was we broke it up into two acre sections and we did two acres of both the traditional, the conventional program that we normally would do here and the soft treatment. So we did two acres of each in pinot noir, two acres of each in a, in a French American hybrid called ol, and then two acres of Riesling.

[00:09:33] And we wanted to look at powdery, downy, botrytis, and sour rot.

[00:09:38] In certain years, we can have quite a lot of botrytis and sour rot pressure in those three varieties. Because Pinot Noir of course is tight clustered. Vignole is even tighter clustered despite having that French American disease resistance package. It, it doesn't possess that for Botrytis or Sour Rot.

[00:09:58] and then of course Riesling is a, is a very, it's probably the number one variety in Michigan. And as we all know, it's susceptible to Botrytis.

[00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Big time.

[00:10:10] Nice design. Great varieties to choose. I think that was really, really smart. How are you going to quantify these different variables? How are you going to measure the damage?

[00:10:18] Andrew Fles: So for Powdery and Downey we just kind of did a scouting assessment. You know, how, prevalent is the infection based on how many leaves per, per per scouting event? I think off the top of my head, it was like 25 leaves. Per block that's more, I guess, anecdotal which we, and we did see that in the Pinot Noir, it was pretty clear cut that we struggled to control Downy in the soft treatment more so than in the conventional treatment.

[00:10:50] It was, it was pretty clear there. And then as far as the Botrytis and Sour Rot, so that's really where the MSU team came in with the, the Rufus Isaacs lab and Dr. Rufus Isaacs and his master's PhD candidate. They did a lot of work there and, and then also the Tim Miles lab , so basically what they did is they took 25 clusters of each treatment and they did an assessment , for of course, how many berries were infected by, by botrytis and sour rot.

[00:11:25] And then they also took those clusters and they hatched them out to see how many Drosophila species were there.

[00:11:33] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Yeah, good. That's interesting.

[00:11:36] Andrew Fles: Wing drosophila here in Michigan and so really it was just the two species of traditional vinegar fly, drosophila, and then spotted wing. They did, you know, the, the statistics on that.

[00:11:50] Craig Macmillan: interesting. And this is, this is a multi year project, right?

[00:11:54] Andrew Fles: This was just one year.

[00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Just one year, okay.

[00:11:58] And when will you have final results?

[00:12:01] Andrew Fles: I have some of those already. We're going to do like a more formal presentation at a spring meeting here, a grower meeting, that's kind of co sponsored between MSU Extension and a local non profit that promotes grape and wine production in the area. So yeah, we're going to make a presentation in April on on the results and, and kind of, we're just continuing to, coalesce and, you know, tie my spray program with wedding events and then the results that they got as well.

[00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: What other kinds of outreach are you doing? You're doing the meeting and you're doing other things?

[00:12:41] Andrew Fles: I haven't discussed this with with Rika Bhandari as the PhD student. I suspect that she would use this in some of her publishing, you know, whether it gets published, I don't know, it's part of her Her main focus is sour rot, so this will be included in some of her presentations.

[00:13:03] But I don't know that for a fact.

[00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: That's exciting to get some information that's local. It's locally based and get it out to the local community as well as the broader community. I think that's really important if you don't mind I would like to get into some of the nuts and bolts of these two programs because I found that to be very interesting And then as we go talk about How that panned out for the different pests and diseases that you saw in these trials Let's talk about the soft program first You've got a dormant oil app in May and I assume you mean that there would be like JMS stylet oil or something like that

[00:13:41] Andrew Fles: I think it was called bio cover.

[00:13:43] Craig Macmillan: Bio cover and that's a pretty standard practice in your area I would guess

[00:13:48] Andrew Fles: It is, yeah.

[00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: and then the following month in June You, uh, have copper in the mix. In both the traditional and in the soft chemistry. I'm guessing that's also a common practice in your area. Probably for downy and for powdery.

[00:14:06] Andrew Fles: Yeah, the copper is is something that we've been leaning towards and getting away from some of the synthetics. Which stick better to plant surfaces, we've been migrating that way anyway, these last numerous years now and so, yeah, , there are some similarities between the two programs at times it's really those key times of pre bloom and post bloom and variation that that we've traditionally.

[00:14:34] Really locked in on some of the synthetic chemistries here

[00:14:37] Craig Macmillan: And then also in June you have a Serenade Opti, which would be a Subtilis based material. And I believe that's also in your conventional in July. That's pretty standard practice, and that's an OMRI certified product, I believe.

[00:14:52] Andrew Fles: Yes, yeah.

[00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: There's some overlap there. It looks like the Rose Chaffer comes out around this time.

[00:14:59] Andrew Fles: Yeah, probably it's not in front of me, but probably mid june

[00:15:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what you have here. In the traditional you've got a, a neonic, a sale. And then in the program, there's kind of a question mark here. What did you end up using in the, in the soft program for a roast chaffer?

[00:15:19] Andrew Fles: Let me find it here

[00:15:21] So we used neemix 4. 5

[00:15:26] Craig Macmillan: Nemix. I'm not familiar with that. Is that a Nemo based product?

[00:15:28] Andrew Fles: Yeah, it's a neem oil

[00:15:30] Craig Macmillan: And then in the traditional you have a neonic, a sail. Did you see a difference in Rose Chapter damage between the two? Because this is a pretty big difference here.

[00:15:39] Andrew Fles: a pretty big difference in terms of

[00:15:42] Craig Macmillan: Well, the modes of action obviously are very different.

[00:15:45] Andrew Fles: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, we had a little higher a little higher prevalence of rose chafers in mostly in the Pinot Noir treatments. Not so much in the Riesling, and I think that's largely because of black location. Traditionally the Pinot Noir block is our worst, one of our worst blocks in terms of rose chaffer rose chaffers are these beetles.

[00:16:09] Of course, they're very similar to Japanese beetles for those listeners that, that may know that, but they really thrive in sandy soil, which is what we specialize here in northern Michigan, sandy based soil, right?

[00:16:22] , and especially in un mowed fields. Right? We've really been trying to manage , our headland spaces like a prairie even more so upon joining SIP and, and learning more about making a comprehensive farm plan of, Of all of the land, right? And so we've really managed our, headlands and open fields like prairies which means minimal mowing,

[00:16:47] like once a year is what we, we just mow to keep the autumn olive out. And and so we're trying to promote, you know, bird life and, and. All forms of life in these fields, which includes and sometimes an increase in rose chafers.

[00:17:03] However, this 2024 was, was a. Fairly low pressure year.

[00:17:09] And so I was very comfortable with, with sticking with this the soft insecticide. And we didn't feel like, you know, even though we saw this, this increase in pressure in the soft treatment, it wasn't surpassing the economic damage threshold that we are really keen.

[00:17:27] And right. IPM

[00:17:29] Craig Macmillan: So, true IPM.

[00:17:31] Andrew Fles: IPM is very important, here, you know, where we have all these insects and it rains a lot and, you know, you got to really. Be ready to to, to scout and then react.

[00:17:41] Craig Macmillan: Exactly. Yeah. And knowing what your economic injury limit is, I think it's huge. And your action threshold based on that. Tell me a little bit about the Spinosad based products. You have a couple in the soft that I assume are meant to be insecticides.

[00:17:55] Andrew Fles: Yeah. The delegate. Yup.

[00:17:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Delegator and Trust.

[00:17:59] Andrew Fles: I'll talk a little bit about intrepid as well. That's probably a foreign thing for any, any West coast listener, but that's intrepid is a it's a molting regulator and it's essentially for, in this case, for grapes, it's for grape berry moth. And this is an insect that is very difficult to do IPM on because there's a, there's kind of a morph that lives in northern Michigan that doesn't Go for the traps and so you can put traps out and it you just have no idea what's going on Because they just don't really care for the pheromones so they're really almost impossible to trap and I've talked numerous time with dr Rufus Isaacs about this and how do we you know get a handle on populations and you know They just can't get their traps to work up here.

[00:18:50] We target with the intrepid, it's a, again, it's a molting regulator, so it just prevents them from developing, and it's very specific it's not a broad spectrum, so that goes on as a preventative where we have blocks near the woods,

[00:19:05] because we see great berry moth coming in from wild, wild vines

[00:19:10] that may or may not be in the woods, but we Where we see larva hatching is, is just kind of a perimeter.

[00:19:16] So what we'll actually do is a perimeter spray. We don't even spray the whole block. We'll spray the outside row or two or three of each end. And then we just kind of blast it in. Along the, the other, you know, along the posts, the end posts. And that seems to work fairly well.

[00:19:34] Craig Macmillan: Huh.

[00:19:35] Andrew Fles: And then, as far as Delegate goes and Entrust those are Spinoza based products like you mentioned.

[00:19:42] Those are primarily, you'll see that we put them on, well, I don't know if you can see timing, but we put them on. in September. Yeah, at the end of the season. September.

[00:19:53] Yeah. Yeah. So, so those go on right around or right before even version and that is for drosophila

[00:20:01] I think there's been some research recently from Cornell and then also Brock University in Canada. And I know also that Tim and Rufus have been doing trials here in Michigan as well. between the three of us out here in the, in the Northeast we're very focused on sour rot.

[00:20:19] And so Michigan State along with these other folks have done these trials where they found that including an insecticide at veraison or, and then also at about 15 bricks significantly reduces sour rot infections. And that's because you're going after one of the vectors.

[00:20:39] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. There's another material that I wasn't familiar with. I did a little bit of research on it. That's a product called Jet Ag, which is a hydrogen peroxide, a peracetic acid material. You have that in both the soft chemistry and your quote unquote conventional section. Is that a material you've used for a long time?

[00:20:57] Andrew Fles: Yeah, we, I forget when exactly it started coming around I think probably 2015, 16 is when it was maybe released or made its way to northern Michigan and kind of coincided with with some sour rot. Issues that we have had off and on over the years with Pinot Noir or Vignole. And it's a, you know, it's a strong hydrogen peroxide.

[00:21:23] It's a heavy oxidizer. It goes in and it, it, it cleans everything up. You know, it disinfects. And there's, there's some thinking as well that it, it'll kill the yeast. And some of those yeasts, the aroma is very attractive to spotted wing drosophila and regular drosophila. And so if you're, if you're kind of this is probably something that, that people, you know, that rely on native ferments might not want to hear, but you know, it really, it really disinfects the fruit which, which is key for You know, controlling sour rot.

[00:21:59] And so we've used that over the years as both a preventative and a curative treatment.

[00:22:05] Craig Macmillan: Right.

[00:22:06] Andrew Fles: I didn't actually end up using it this year because It essentially stopped raining it was almost west coast ian here in the fall. It stopped raining in August and it didn't rain again.

[00:22:19] You know, I mean, aside from like just a, you know, very, very light mist that wouldn't even penetrate the soil deeper than a centimeter. You know, so we didn't get any appreciable rain. From, I think it was maybe August 5 or 10, all the way till November 31st, or sorry, October 31st.

[00:22:39] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that raises a good question. So, what is the summer precipitation like, quote unquote, in a normal year or an average year?

[00:22:48] Andrew Fles: Yeah, we've been having,

[00:22:49] Craig Macmillan: is it?

[00:22:52] Andrew Fles: it's so variable is the, you know, we keep coming back to that. Every season is different here and it's so true even in Northern Michigan we have seen climate change affecting our summer rainfalls. So, whereas, you know, traditionally, and I say traditionally as maybe like the 80s and 90s maybe even early 2000s, you would expect to see, you know, a good four to eight inches a month.

[00:23:20] you know, less, less so in, you know, in July and August is walking that more like four inch. Four inches of precipitation and you can get that sometimes in two different days

[00:23:33] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:23:34] Andrew Fles: And that could be all or it could be spread out, you know over over several 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different events. we had a dry June a couple years ago, I think we, I think it rained two days and amount to much.

[00:23:50] And 2023, all of May we had, it rained one day. It was very dry. And so it's really been a roller coaster here in terms of what to expect as far as precipitation comes, I mean during the growing season anyway.

[00:24:08] Craig Macmillan: Mm hmm.

[00:24:09] Andrew Fles: It's been a challenge to know, you kind of have to have all these tools ready, right?

[00:24:13] You have to have your jet ag ready.

[00:24:15] If you get a bunch of infections going you got to have some of these other products ready and just , be ready for anything essentially.

[00:24:24] Craig Macmillan: That, I'm just kind of reeling, I'm from California, and so like four to eight inches of rain during the growing season, it sounds like a fungal disease disaster to me. I'm impressed that you can get a crop, a vinifera crop to, to harvest with those kind of conditions.

[00:24:39] Let's talk about the sustainable conventional program a little bit. Again copper appears early which would make sense. Then the insecticide portion would be a sale. It's a neonicotinoid, and then you've got a couple of fungicides in here.

[00:24:55] You've got sulfur, and you've got a boscalid. Then in July again you've got a subtilis, that's serenadopty, and the, the intrepid, the IGR. August, you've got another neonic rally, and then you've got a product called ranman, or ranman. Which is a Sazofenamide, again, traditional fungicide. And then Inspire Supert, verasion, very common. And then you've got the the JetAg and Delegate, which is an antispinosid based product. When I look at this, I see a lot of very safe, very smart, very rotated fungicide chemistries here. Was this the kind of program you were using previously?

[00:25:34] Andrew Fles: Yeah. And you know, it always can change a little bit. Sometimes you can't get a certain product or you can't get it in time.

[00:25:42] Uh, whereas, you know, you, you're planning to use X product for your, for your kind of like You know, your, your pea sized berry spray, let's say but you, all of a sudden you have a bunch of rainfall, you know, and, and so if I was planning to use Quintech, which only covers powdery all of a sudden I have this big wedding event that was just perfect for growing downy mildew I I might switch from Quintech to and vice versa, you know, if we're, if we're into some weather, that's really favorable, it's time to push more of those serenades and you know, we've used some of the other biologicals over the years as well and, and just trying, trying to go that way as much as possible, but, you know, sometimes the weather forces your hand, like, like it did this year, you'll see in my, In my program we went into some Randman and some

[00:26:35] Zampro, and those are those are very specific to to downy mildew.

[00:26:41] You know, but we're still, with those products, you know, they're more expensive than something like Kaptan, you know. We Can't spray that with sip and we didn't spray it before because we don't want it on our fingers

[00:26:56] The vineyard you and I don't want it in our lives So so we're always trying to go the ran man route, even though it's a little pricier, but it's very Target specific for Downey and so, you know with all the rains that we had in June and July and early July we felt like the smart play and we did start seeing some downy mildew cropping up much earlier than normal.

[00:27:21] If, if we see it at all, that is. in that, at that point you want to make the call, you know, Hey, I want to get out in front of this thing. I don't want downy on my fruit. You know, if you start seeing it on growing tips, I think it was the 4th of July or the 2nd of July or something we were scouting and we were getting a lot of rain at that point and it was very humid and it was just like rain every other day for about a week there and it's like you gotta pivot and, and make the move to something that's really going to provide. control there.

[00:27:52] For the soft program at that point, we were trying to use, I believe we use serenade, you know, which is more broad spectrum as far as biologicals go. We knew we wanted to keep it going after the, , the Downey with the soft chemistry. And that's why we got into the orange oil as well.

[00:28:10] Craig Macmillan: Oh, interesting.

[00:28:11] Andrew Fles: to, Yeah, that's, that wasn't in the proposal that I sent you, but we did pivot. I couldn't get. The cinerate it was, I was told it was on the West coast, growers were hoarding it and none of it, none of it made it over this way. I was really hoping to get my hands on some of it.

[00:28:28] I've already pre ordered my 2025 cinerate.

[00:28:32] Craig Macmillan: And Cinerate is a cinnamon oil based product, right?

[00:28:36] Andrew Fles: Correct. Yeah. Cinnamon oil. oil. Yeah, it's another oil.

[00:28:39] Yeah. Yeah. It's another one of those kind of antimicrobial oils, if you will. Um, So we pivoted to, to orange oil and thyme oil. TimeGuard has been, is a product that's been out for a number of years now. We've used it before, , we haven't really relied on it as much in the past. As, as we did with this soft treatment.

[00:28:59] Craig Macmillan: Tell me a little bit more about what the outcomes have been at this point. We talked about the the pinot noir a little bit. We talked about the Rose Shafter showing up there a little bit more. At, at the end of the day, the end of the season. How did you feel about it? How did you feel about comparing the two

[00:29:15] Andrew Fles: you know, it felt, it felt really good. It seemed like the soft program kept pace with the conventional for the most part. In the Pinot Noir, we had we had some more rose chaffer damage, of course, but without doing a, a full on research trial, it's hard to say that it was the treatment alone because of, as I mentioned, the location was a big factor.

[00:29:38] With the downy mildew, it seemed to be a little more prevalent, certainly in the Pinot Noir on the, on the soft program that is but it never got to the point and I was, I was always ready to go in with whatever I needed to, because we don't want to have a defoliation and not being able to ripen fruit, you know, the fruit and, and especially in such a great growing year.

[00:30:01] we never really resorted to. You know, breaking the glass and, and grabbing the ax and running out there and like, and it was emergency, you know, we never, we never had to do that. There was a moment there in July where, you know, where would the downy pressure we thought maybe.

[00:30:19] Maybe we would have to abandon it, but then things dried up and we kept after things with with some of these, these things like thyme oil and orange oil. Getting good coverage with them is so important. But getting those on at the right time really seemed to provide enough control.

[00:30:37] Craig Macmillan: Actually that's a, that's an excellent point. Let's talk about the phenology a little bit. How, for the varieties that you're growing, how big are these canopies getting? What's the spacing that they're planted on? How many gallons per acre are you using in your spray applications to get good coverage?

[00:30:54] Andrew Fles: Yeah, so for the purpose of the project I stuck with 50 gallons an acre throughout the season. Which even, even for the conventional portion, traditionally I'll, I'll start with 30 gallons an acre aside from the dormant spray, of course, but like, you know, early season sprays until the canopy becomes a little denser, , I'll be at 30 gallons an acre and then probably mid July post bloom, right around bloom, perhaps , we'll ramp up the conventional to 50 gallons as well.

[00:31:26] For the purposes of this, we just did 50 gallons across the board, both treatments. a lot of the canopy is well, it's really all VSP except for the vignole. Vignole is high wire cordone. And then we're talking nine by five spacing. The vinifera as well, which is pretty common around here. Double geo some spur pruning. We've really developed a kind of a hybrid system where we do a little bit of, we kind of mix cane and spur , , and alternate those in, in some of our venefera programs.

[00:31:57] Craig Macmillan: And in, on the same plant?

[00:31:59] Andrew Fles: Yeah. Sometimes.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:01] Craig Macmillan: one side, gator the other.

[00:32:03] Andrew Fles: What that does for us you know, where we get. Or we can at least, you know, and we can, sometimes we can lose a whole cane , or a lot of buds. I don't want to get too in the weeds on, on what that system is, but, but it's really developed around being able to quickly replace and adapt to cold damage.

[00:32:24] And so if we need to go in and cut a trunk out, we've already got a cane growing from down low, if that makes any sense.

[00:32:31] Craig Macmillan: No, that does make sense. And it's a practice that I'm familiar with from other areas in the Midwest, the North, the Northeast. Very, very smart. But that's a very different canopy architecture than you might find someplace that's all VSP. Or, you know, a double canopy situation maybe like in New York.

[00:32:48] How comfortable are you now? After going through this, it sounds like you liked the softer program, you feel you got good control on most things. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're not afraid to keep some other, other tools in the toolbox, basically.

[00:33:05] Andrew Fles: Right. Yeah. And I think a big purpose of this program was to investigate some of these products. I want to highlight Problad Verde as well.

[00:33:14] That's. Another one that's been out there and we've used it before as well. You know, I did a trial with Tim Miles's lab on and Rufus doing a sour rot trial in Pinot Noir in the past with pro, and it was just kind of a end of the season application of Problad with I believe we use delegate or in trust.

[00:33:34] I can't remember. One of them and, this project, the SARE project was really looking at problad as being more of the backbone , of it. And, and so we ended up using that for the soft treatment pre bloom, post bloom. And then again, at version, because it has similar to jet egg, it's kind of a disinfectant, right?

[00:33:57] It's this lupine seed extract that, that is a. That is a disinfectant and so it's going to go in, but because it, it's advertised anyway as having some systemic activity,

[00:34:09] Craig Macmillan: Mm

[00:34:10] Andrew Fles: systemic properties, that's, that's key for us in the east here. Because, hey, if we get a half inch of rain, well, it's still kind of in the leaf or it's still in some of that green flower tissue.

[00:34:24] Before it opens up and blooms and so, really working problad in as instead of a kind of just end of the season toy it's really became, became the backbone of the tritus control for us in this, in this trial. And then again, looking at some of these oils, I think there's a lot of promise for. the orange oil in particular, I've, I've been seeing more and more research coming out about how you know, it does work on Downy and we did see that you know, even though we had an increase in Downy infection man, it could have been a lot worse. It was still at an acceptable level.

[00:35:02] And so I think, I think I'm going to feel more and more comfortable using those products.

[00:35:07] Craig Macmillan: You've demonstrated to yourself. And that's what the, that's how it works, and that's what everybody needs, to have some confidence. Which I think is really great, I was very impressed by the idea of trying things that maybe are not widely used, were not widely tested outside of maybe the West Coast, and to be able to show efficacy on your property, I think is really important.

[00:35:27] I think it's one thing many of us have learned about softer materials. They may or may not work depending on what your pressure is. And that can vary region to region, but it can also vary within a region. It definitely can vary year to year, so having that flexibility that you've built into this program is very admirable. What would you say are the big picture benefits of the soft pesticide program at this point?

[00:35:48] Andrew Fles: Hopefully just to increase awareness of, of how they can be effective for folks here in Michigan or, or similar climates, New York and Canada, I should say I don't think , this SARE project alone is, is going to be any sort of groundbreaking news, but I think it's just another verification and if we start to have more and more of them people will believe more and more in these products because it's just, it's at that point, it's word of mouth, right?

[00:36:21] It's more and more growers are starting to back it. And, or experiment with it at least and, and see results, I think a lot of growers are very word of mouth oriented anyway.

[00:36:34] So, uh, so it's very important, like, Oh, Hey, what did you try last year? And I think there's plenty of that going on in our area.

[00:36:42] A bunch of us anyway, we seem to network pretty well and, and trust each other. , Oh, I use this at this key time and it really proved effective. So I think just bringing more and more awareness to these soft programs or these soft products, I should say. , and I can't really speak to the sustainability of. Farming lupin seed for for a fungicide product, you know, I can't, speak to that, but I want to believe that it's, it's a more sustainable product than, you know something that was made in a factory and, and might have petrochemicals in it.

[00:37:19] Craig Macmillan: Well, it might have resistance issues as well, I think is one of the key things. And by the way, both programs I thought were very intelligent. I think like in terms of the frack rotations in the sustainable one, I thought that was really well done. Is, is there one thing that you would tell growers?

[00:37:35] What's the one takeaway you would tell people from this project? You just kind of touched on one, but is there a message here for people?

[00:37:43] Andrew Fles: I think the message is, you know, that we have to be really careful in crafting our. Spray program to the season that we have. If we were getting A lot more rain in September than what we ended up having I mean, we were, we were in pretty severe drought here. I think the soft program could still work.

[00:38:03] But you have to choose the product and probably apply it much more frequently. You know, you have to go in and respond to those rains. , or even maybe perhaps be ready to pivot to something that is synthetic and systemic and curative. You know, maybe you have to go in with a hammer, but that doesn't mean that, you know, the majority of this growing season can't be done in a very soft way.

[00:38:30] And so we're really just responding to that weather. But I think if this is our focus , to use these softer chemistries on things that we're going to drink or eat, even if it's vegetables, I think that these products are becoming better and better and there's becoming more and more of them, which is really encouraging to see you know, 10 years ago, maybe we had serenade and And you know, a couple of other products, but now, now there's, they're really becoming prevalent.

[00:38:58] And so I think the take home is, is crafting that spray program with these new found tools that we have. Problads, , your crop, , your what, what should I call them? Like your aromatic oils, lack of better term, like orange oil, thyme oil, cinnamon oil. You know, I think these things do have a place.

[00:39:17] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you?

[00:39:19] Andrew Fles: Well, they can visit ShadyLaneCellers. com and there's stuff in there about our farm and in what we do and where we are, who we are a little bit. And then also there will be, and I could get you this information if you're interested, so this spring meeting where we're going to present the results of this believe we'll have a Zoom link option.

[00:39:43] Craig Macmillan: As a reference date, this is being recorded in February of 2025. And so spring meeting will be coming up in a few months from here. I'm not sure when this will air, but even anything is fantastic. So I really want to thank you for being on the episode. Our guest today was Andy Fless, he's Vineyard Manager at Shadyland Cellars and you've been a great guest. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:40:03] Andrew Fles: My pleasure, Craig. Thanks a lot for having me.

[00:40:08] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Martinez Orchards. Martinez Orchards is one of the most trusted and respected names in the nursery business. They have earned that reputation through years of hard work, honesty, integrity, and a commitment to their customers. They provide support with their knowledgeable salespeople and highly experienced production team. They know successful plantings allow them to fulfill their promises, and they strive to build lasting relationships with their customers based on a foundation of mutual steadfast trust.

[00:40:40] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Andy at Shady Lane Plus. Sustainable wine Growing podcast episodes 117. Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 219 Intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 235, battling fungicide resistance with glove sampling.

[00:41:03] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the [email protected] slash podcast and you can reach us at [email protected].

[00:41:16] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities. Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting shares key strategies for success.

Long-term exit strategies (3, 5, and 10 years) help ensure a seamless transition. Key considerations include:

• How will the company evolve?
• Will the current management team remain?
• Who needs leadership development?

Aligning stakeholders—whether family or business partners—is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty and acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions.

A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third-party reviews help maintain accountability.

Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability, ensuring business continuity through leadership changes.

Resources:

• 221: Future Proof Your Wine Business with Omnichannel Communication
• Collaboration Business Consulting
• Collaboration Business Consulting Speaking Engagements
• Collaboration Business Consulting Resources

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities.

[00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director.

[00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting.

[00:00:37] She explains that long term exit strategies from three, five, even 10 years helps ensure a seamless transition.

[00:00:44] Key considerations include how will the company evolve? Will the current management team remain in place? And who needs leadership development?

[00:00:53] Aligning stakeholders, whether it's family or business partners is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty. And acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions.

[00:01:03] A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third party reviews will help maintain accountability. Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Because things are likely to change, transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability ensuring that the business continues successfully throughout the leadership change.

[00:01:29] If you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start, become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit us at vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community.

[00:01:48] Now let's listen in.

[00:01:53] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Erin Hoffman. She's a senior business consultant and partner at Collaboration Business Consulting.

[00:01:59] And today we're going to talk about succession planning. Thanks for being on the podcast, Erin.

[00:02:03] Erin Hoffman: Yes. Thank you.

[00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: This is part of the SIP certified certification and one that I think is often overlooked and a lot of people don't really understand, but I think it's important no matter who you are. To take this into account.

[00:02:15] So let's just start from the very basics. what is succession planning in business?

[00:02:19] Erin Hoffman: Great question. Succession planning is really making sure that somebody besides you is available and ready to take on the reins or responsibilities when you leave or when you get promoted. And I think one of the things that people often overlook is they want to take on more responsibilities, but they're not thinking about, okay, if I'm doing that, who am I shifting some of those responsibilities down to?

[00:02:42] Craig Macmillan: I noticed you mentioned in terms of also promotion. So there may be actually be some internal things within departments even that this could be important for.

[00:02:49] Erin Hoffman: Absolutely. So often we think about succession planning of taking over the business or taking over the reins of the business or managers or leaders departure that can also mean, you know, I think managers, it's important to be thinking about their own promotion or taking on responsibilities as the business grows.

[00:03:05] Craig Macmillan: And so why is this an important topic for people?

[00:03:08] Erin Hoffman: This is probably the single most challenging issue for managers and leaders of businesses. Something that they often come to us and say, I wish I was more prepared or I wish I would have. Been doing this a few years ago. And it, it can really be a challenge for a business because there's a lot of institutional knowledge that is held within those managers and leaders.

[00:03:26] And if they were to leave the business or when they want to retire, where does that transition go? It could take years to really get somebody up and ready. So that's why it's so important to think about.

[00:03:36] Craig Macmillan: I'm guessing that this looks different for different types of businesses, different sizes of businesses. How would things be different for a small, let's say, family owned, family run business, as opposed to something that's maybe a little bit larger maybe it's a corporation, still perhaps owned by the family, but maybe a little bit different structure.

[00:03:53] Erin Hoffman: Great question. All businesses, it starts with having a long term plan, but let's start with those smaller family businesses. It really starts with taking a look at what is that long term plan when we work with clients, we always look three, five years, and then maybe 10 or beyond what's that eventual retirement or exit plan and starting to align those actions with that.

[00:04:13] So I'll give an example of a vineyard that maybe the owner is thinking about retiring in 10 years. They should be starting to think, what does that look like? Do I want it to remain a family business? Do I want management to remain in the business? If so, do I have those people in in place? So starting to think first, what is that long term goal?

[00:04:33] And then we can start to work backwards into who needs to be developed or where there might be gaps.

[00:04:39] Craig Macmillan: So what does this process actually look like? Like, when a client comes to you how does this actually play out?

[00:04:44] Erin Hoffman: Great question. When we work with a client on this we start exactly there, what I, where I mentioned at the long term plan. So asking the leader or business owners, , what is that goal? What is that Long term strategy, not only for yourself and your retirement, but also for the business and what you want that legacy of the business to be and getting really clear on that.

[00:05:05] Often there's especially family businesses, but also non family businesses. There's partners. So getting alignment between those partners on what that long term goal is. And from there, then we would make sure that we bring in, it. Potential successors. Often these are family members, sons or daughters bringing them into that process.

[00:05:24] Once the owner is clear of what their goals are, , we want to bring in that the successor to start talking about what that looks like and make sure they're also aligned with the goal.

[00:05:33] So that's our first step. The couple of things that we run into when going through that process is. Uncertainty of what that looks like for the person that's departing and really working through getting that clarity.

[00:05:47] The other thing that we run into quite frequently is the emotions that are tied up in these types of changes. And we work with that throughout the whole process. So when we start, we let. Folks know that they're going to go through some stages similar to the stages of grief when they go through a succession planning process and as they go through that process because they will start to feel frustration or anger or, you know, frustration that the person that they're handing it off to isn't doing it the way they want it or not stepping up.

[00:06:16] So there's a lot of different planning, but also emotion that comes into it.

[00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: I can imagine this must be a very scary process for a lot of folks, because you're kind of looking at what, oh, wait a minute, like what's going to happen and what's possible to happen. And then there's the question of what's the best outcome. And that's where you're talking about getting the partners and the family involved.

[00:06:37] So they're all sharing that same, that same vision. How do you facilitate that step? How do you get the players to kind of come together?

[00:06:46] Erin Hoffman: You know, the 1st, as I mentioned, we start with if we're working with a business owner, we start with them because it really is about their desired outcomes and timeline. But we start with individual interviews and talk with each of the key. Individuals, partners key personnel in the business and also potential successors to really understand the motivations and desires, but also the other factors that might be impacting the business, the roles, the talent, et cetera.

[00:07:15] So from there, once we have a good understanding and had a chance to hear everybody one on one, we bring everybody together in the decision making team. So this would be like your owners or partners or family and discuss, Hey, here's our findings. Here's where there's commonalities.

[00:07:28] Here's where there's some, there may be differences. The first step is getting everybody on the same page with what, we're trying to achieve.

[00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: Are these processes normally put into place or started by the leader, the, the owner, the CEO, whatever type of business it's structured as or is there some pressure from folks that see that there's going to be an exit at some point and they're like, Hey I'd like some stability here. I don't want to wake up one day and find out that my entire world has just came crashing down which is, which has happened to me

[00:07:59] Erin Hoffman: Surprise. Yeah. Yeah, that's a, great question. And the answer is both. We've had both the , owner proactively come in and say, this is something they've been thinking about. And the successor the most common thing we hear from both parties is, Hey, we've been talking about this for a while and we haven't been able to make any headway.

[00:08:18] It's not so much that it's not discussed or , they don't know. It's just. It's been this vague, long term kind of nebulous goal that there's always work to be done, it's always busy, and it doesn't get picked up. So when we talk to folks, either the successor or the leader is saying, Hey, we've been trying to do this and we just haven't seemed to figure it out.

[00:08:39] Can you help us? And that's where we come in and we really have a structure to be able to start to Put all the pieces in place. We find that once people have a game plan, they're really good at carrying out the plan. usually business owners only go through this once in their lifetime. So it's really, there's not a blueprint.

[00:08:54] Craig Macmillan: And this plan, I'm guessing, takes the form of a written living document

[00:09:01] Erin Hoffman: We have a couple documents that we come away with. So the first one is going to be a partnership agreement. So typically. If the plan is to bring somebody into ownership, there's a period of time where and this is again, this is more for ownership. It might not be in for management teams, but if if there is a period of time where there's going to be some co ownership, we want to get everybody very clear on what is the decision making.

[00:09:28] What is that going to look like as partners? What's the expectation for that retiring partner? And that the process of how that looks, this is where some of the things can go south or. Okay. Get ugly for families or businesses because nobody wants to talk about the money components of it. But then if there's misunderstandings, they could go south really quickly.

[00:09:47] So we get clarity on that. That's 1 document. The other document is we create a milestone document, which is a year over year, or sometimes quarter over quarter plan of these are the shifts that are going to happen in the roles. Here's who's going to take on those responsibilities, maybe even days of the week.

[00:10:04] How many days a week is that person going to be working? Maybe they're starting to step back all of that.

[00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: So there may be some very specific things in terms of like job description, tasks assigned. Like you said, time allotted. How do you keep track of that moving forward? Because you're going to revisit this year to year. I imagine that these benchmarks need to be hit in order to keep things on track.

[00:10:26] How does that process work? You put it on the calendar. Okay, next year on March 1st, we're going to meet and we're going to go over this again.

[00:10:32] Erin Hoffman: We definitely want to build in that accountability to the plan because it's really easy to fall back into the habits of just doing it the way you've always done it. We recommend at the very least. That the the leaders are having a monthly management meeting, and this is getting talked about on a monthly basis.

[00:10:49] We don't wanna put it in a drawer for a year and then pick it back up. And there should be some some openness to be able to hold each other accountable of, Hey, we're behind track on this, or we need to move forward on this. Uh, So that's, that's one of the things that we recommend.

[00:11:02] The other piece. Our team can come in and help or getting somebody that's maybe that third party that , you're setting a meeting with maybe monthly or quarterly, or even semi annually, just to check in of where you're at. Increase that extra accountability of yes, we're sticking to the plan. It's like seeing your personal trainer and having to say you didn't do any of your push ups.

[00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Right, right, right, right. I like that analogy. That's a good one. That's a really, really good one. Accountability makes a big difference.

[00:11:30] Erin Hoffman: for sure.

[00:11:31] Craig Macmillan: yeah, I've worked on projects around that before. It's fascinating. Just simply saying, I am going to do this to another person goes a long way towards getting that thing done because you, you know, you made a promise.

[00:11:42] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, I get a lot of that from our clients of, Oh, Erin, we knew we were going to meet with you next month. So we, we had to sit down and like, you know, knock it out. So it's like just that accountability of.

[00:11:52] Craig Macmillan: What are some of the most common mistakes businesses make around succession planning?

[00:11:58] Erin Hoffman: It's another great question. , there's a few. I think that one of the biggest ones that comes to mind, especially when it's a family business or an employee to an employer where that is stepping into the leadership. Often discount that person who's stepping into the role, how much they respect the person that's already in that role.

[00:12:17] Let's say they're the, you know, the owner in this example. So they, one of the mistakes is that the owner is like, Oh, I'm just waiting for this person to step up. And in the meantime, I'm just going to keep doing the role. Like I've always done. They don't realize that that person under them respects them too much to say. Move out of the way. Let me, you know, I need to do this now.

[00:12:37] So they there's a natural kind of deferment and it's even if that person is your parent and it's gonna even, you know, increase that. So really understanding that that's a natural dynamic that's going to happen and that . It's we're having that plan and being able to speak to the plan on a regular basis really comes into play.

[00:12:55] So that's probably 1 of , the, the mistakes as I mentioned, talking about it, but not really moving anything forward is 1.

[00:13:01] I think the other piece goes back. Into the, that the stages of grief or the emotion that comes in you know, I think it can be really difficult when suddenly feeling like, okay, what is my role in the business?

[00:13:15] I hear that a lot from folks that are, even though their goal, they, they have a retirement in sight and that's their goal. There's a definite frustration or confusion of, okay, what now? What's next? And so there's. Tends to be you know, they go through bargaining. We had one client that was I think they were a week away from signing off a hundred percent of ownership to his son and came in and goes, know, I think we could extend this another three or four years, you know, just like, it was like they were working the plan and,

[00:13:42] Craig Macmillan: Right.

[00:13:43] Erin Hoffman: But it really comes from a place of just that uncertainty and change that people run into.

[00:13:48] So I think that's the other problem is when faced with that change in those emotions, sometimes they. Blame the process or the person and not that just recognizing that those are natural emotions.

[00:13:58] Craig Macmillan: This is a little bit of a side, but how, how do you advise people around these emotional issues? Because you're moving from being a business consultant into being a therapist at this point.

[00:14:07] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, a little bit.

[00:14:09] Craig Macmillan: A little bit. A little bit.

[00:14:10] Erin Hoffman: I think anybody that's in business and that, you know, deals with people realizes that that's, you know, that's the big component of it is you know, the working with people and , through all the challenges of emotions and things that happen. But One of the best things is knowing, normalizing it, letting people know this is normal and this is going to happen.

[00:14:30] It really helps when somebody is going through that, those feelings to just know that they're normal and it's okay. And that they can feel it. It really is a relief for a lot of business owners, especially when they're having a consultant that's gone through it. to say, expect this to happen. It's completely normal.

[00:14:49] It really can help just settle everything down.

[00:14:52] Craig Macmillan: Without naming names, can you give us an example of a transition? And ownership or management that could have gone better. There's some thought had been put into secession planning earlier. Or at all. I would imagine some folks are coming to you kind of behind the curve on this, from what you're telling me.

[00:15:10] Erin Hoffman: Sure. Absolutely. I think of one winery owner that came to us and he said, you know, I, I wanted to retire five years ago at this point he was in his seventies and so that that's always hard because the, the people on his team weren't. You know, I hadn't really started to develop yet.

[00:15:29] So , that can be frustrating. And I think that it can be a real detriment to the business if that person just says, you know what, I'm done, you guys have it, you know, like, or I'm going to just sell it. It might not be the outcome that everybody would have hoped for. In this case you know, it worked the plan and it actually did work out well.

[00:15:47] And, I went through all of the, you know, some of the challenging emotions, but actually came to us later and said, you know, I'm actually really enjoying, what I'm doing, because he was able to really scale back his role. So it's, it's never too late, but I think it's also never too early. It's always good to start thinking about this and always be.

[00:16:04] And know what that long term plan is you know, God forbid unexpected things happen to have another client where, you know, suddenly a you know, two business partners and one unexpectedly was incapacitated and there was no planning, advanced planning, not really a lot of development of other team members.

[00:16:21] So it took years for that partner to really sift through all of that, the challenges of building the business back up and, and dealing with that. I

[00:16:31] Craig Macmillan: talking to your team, let's say you're the leader, let's say you're the owner and CEO of the company. You've been doing it forever. Like you said, people will tend not to develop unless there's space. To develop into what kinds of advice do you have for folks that are in that ownership, management, leadership to develop their team so that those folks are ready to move up to these new roles.

[00:16:59] Erin Hoffman: think it's first starts with intention, so it takes the owner really sitting down and thinking through his or her role and where he'd like to see people develop and get penciling that out and even thinking about who on the team do they see the capability and the desire to develop the next step is really you know, talking to that person, making sure there's buy in we, if we don't want to create a development plan for somebody without getting them bought into that, that's actually what they want.

[00:17:28] But then creating that space, I think once, you know, , we've identified some of those skills and responsibilities, we've talked to the person, then it's time to create some space. So really, it, is a little bit of for the owner or. Leader to, you know, sit back, sit on their hands a little bit, let that person take on some of the the responsibilities.

[00:17:47] I always use the example of, it's like when you teach your kid to ride a bike. They're going to fumble. They're going to, you know, kind of wobble back and forth. You're going to give them some training wheels, but at no point do you get back on that little pink huffy and say, I can do it better.

[00:18:00] Let me just show you how to do it. Right. You've got to, you've got to let them do it a little bit. And ideally, if you're, if you're planning ahead, As you know, any business leader should be thinking forward. You're, you're doing this in advance and building their skills up over time and not just, in a short burst where you need them to develop all at once.

[00:18:18] Craig Macmillan: It's better to maybe have some swimming lessons than just to be tossed into the deep end.

[00:18:22] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:18:23] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I can see that. I can definitely see that. Are there surprises sometimes that come up and there's one type of situation that I'm familiar with, I've seen before where a winery owner or vineyard owner, , they started all this mid career probably, or maybe even early career with the intention that this would be a family legacy. And then come to find out later on down the road, the family really isn't that interested in carrying on this legacy. That's gotta be a very difficult situation. If you find that you don't have your team,

[00:18:59] Erin Hoffman: I, I think the one way to think about it is always have. Multiple roads or multiple plans that are going in the same direction, because it is common that somebody that you're developing decides that that's not for them and they drop out, or the family member decides that they don't want to be in that business, or that an opportunity comes to merge or to sell.

[00:19:23] And that it really, you know, it's not what you thought it would be, but it turns out to be a really good solution. one of the things that we always advise is to be . Going in the path that all of these roads work out well, which is really starting to make sure that you're not the only person that knows how to run the business.

[00:19:40] So if it's a family member, for example, we've had family members that say, you know what, I'm not really interested in working in the business and some businesses that were able to stay a family business, hire a general manager that was an employee and still sustain that family legacy. That's the one option, but.

[00:19:56] it came from that owner being able to start to shift some of those responsibilities to, and create a clear job description of a leader or management team that could run the business. So I think always be prepared for those types of scenarios because we have seen people drop out or plans change.

[00:20:15] I had one client just recently where it was an employee purchase and the employee. Kind of the final hour said, you know what? I just, this isn't for me. I don't want to move forward. And they felt like all their plans were for nothing. But they just came back to me. It was about a year later and they said, we have a new employee.

[00:20:33] He's great. All of the plans that we've already put in place are. Already in place. So it's, it's already set up for us to start getting this person ready. You always want to be prepared for that.

[00:20:44] Craig Macmillan: yeah, that could be exciting for a lot of folks too. I think you may be in a spot where you're in the middle and you're kind of doing your thing and you just don't really see any chance for advancement because. Mom and dad are still running the show and he seemed pretty happy doing that. If there is kind of a, a plan and a vision, I would say of where I can be in five years, I would imagine that probably helped with buy in from the whole team, I would think.

[00:21:10] Erin Hoffman: That kind of speaks to another thing that business owners are afraid of, of even talking about this with their team. Oh, I don't want to talk about retirement because I might scare people and they leave, but what we found is the opposite is true. When you're sharing, hey, we're really thinking over the long term.

[00:21:25] We have a long term plan. Here's potential opportunities that can be inspiring for folks. People feel more comfortable because they know that there's a plan. Don't make the mistake of being really hush, hush about it because people are more afraid of the unknown than the known. That's the fact that you're thinking about it and making plans.

[00:21:42] People will feel good about it. The other thing that's interesting is especially for those family business owners out there. When doing a process like this, we tell people you have to separate the family hat from the employee hat. And because often you started the business family and working in the business is one in the same, but you have to be able to separate like what what's ownership.

[00:22:07] And what are those responsibilities and what are the roles and responsibilities of an employee? Like, could I hire a general manager to come in and do these responsibilities? And then what's the responsibilities of that and risk of the owner.

[00:22:21] Craig Macmillan: This is very realistic. I can imagine there's some folks who have aspects of their job that they really enjoy and they're really good at. And then if they're looking at new roles, there probably might be some things that they're not so excited about doing. And it's perfectly all right from understanding it to say, hey, this little gap here, we can fill it a different way.

[00:22:38] We can meet. What the business needs in a couple of different creative ways of doing it. We don't all have to be scared and freaked out. Let's just be very clear on what it is that you like to do, that you will do, that you can do in the areas where maybe we need some help.

[00:22:52] Erin Hoffman: Yep, exactly. We want to really understand knowing what the business need is, and then where people can really fit into a role where they're going to thrive and enjoy it.

[00:23:01] Craig Macmillan: This reminds me again, this is from personal experience where there was a transition and the owner wanted to sell. The business and it was a family business and the general manager was family. I was a hired gun. And when he came to us and said, Hey, I want to, I'm going to sell this thing. Both the grandson of myself like freaked out.

[00:23:20] We were like, Oh no, we put all this effort into this and it's all going to go away. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. You're part of the package. You are the vineyards and the buildings and all that. Then there's you, you guys are part of what I'm selling because you do such a great job.

[00:23:34] Erin Hoffman: Yeah.

[00:23:35] Craig Macmillan: Is, is that a real thing?

[00:23:37] Like if you, if you're own a business and you're talking to a potential buyer is that buyer going to be interested in who you have and how they work and what your team is like, or is it going to be clean house?

[00:23:46] Erin Hoffman: Great question. I absolutely, they're interested. So think about it. If I'm, going to buy a business, number one. If the owner is doing all of a lot of the work and has a lot of the knowledge, and I know that owner is leaving as soon as I buy the business, that's a big risk. So what I don't want is I don't want that owner to be heavily involved in the day to day.

[00:24:06] And I don't want that owner to be the sole source of any information, especially about business operations. However, if. That business has a strong management team that have experience, loyalty to the business, knowledge. And when I purchased that business, their knowledge is going to come with that as long, you know, as long as I treat them well, that's highly desirable.

[00:24:28] if the owner is heavily involved and there's no management team, then the business is going to be heavily discounted by that buyer, because , there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get that business up and running to the point where it's self sufficient.

[00:24:43] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I've often wondered about that because I I see two models. I see folks that have built up a business, they sell it and then they go to Hawaii and that's it. They walk away. And then I've seen businesses where the, the owner who's selling sticks around for a period of time and usually has a contract that says I will be available for these things for the next so long.

[00:25:03] How long is a reasonable transition period? If I'm planning on retiring and I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm good to go. But I got to do this. How much time do I need to think I'm going to be involved?

[00:25:15] Erin Hoffman: It's a great question. If it depends on if it's a sale to an outside party or an internal, you know, I think if it's a employee succession, there may be, it's going to be a longer off ramp period. And often it makes sense for that business owner to either stay on as a consultant or an employee for a period of time.

[00:25:35] Not only for. The kind of retirement plans of that owner, but also for the benefit of the the business and continuing on that being said if it's an outside buyer, I would say it'll limit it at a year. , it's a real difficulty with maybe the option to renew, but I've seen some owners that have entered into longer contracts with the buyers.

[00:25:57] years. And. in some situations that works out, but in some situations that they really start to change because somebody comes in and they're starting to make all kinds of changes to what was your business. You're now an employee after being an owner for a period of time. And honestly, you're kind of ready to go and do the next thing.

[00:26:13] So. You think about how long can you work under that that kind of contract situation. Sometimes the financial looks positive, but lot of people are unhappy, especially if it's over a year of doing something like that.

[00:26:28] Craig Macmillan: so this doesn't have to stretch out forever,

[00:26:29] Erin Hoffman: It does not have to stretch out forever. And honestly, I think that, again, it can be uncomfortable for both parties.

[00:26:34] The owner seeing changes and they, you know, maybe that they wouldn't have done. And then the new buyers and they're kind of. Having to be mindful of the owner's feelings about what they might be doing again. There's, there's all different scenarios, but typically when done well as a faster transition that works well, I think still being available to answer questions is like on a per contract or per as needed basis is useful, but not as a, like a contract employee.

[00:27:00] Craig Macmillan: right? In all of your experience with this, is there a again, without naming names, is there a really great success story that you've seen?

[00:27:09] Erin Hoffman: Yes, we've seen a lot of really great success stories, and we've seen it for different reasons. You know, I give a couple of different scenarios. One was a multi generational business. So they were actually going from 2nd generation to 3rd generation and had. By this point had a lot of family members working in and out of the business and had also some family dynamics and fighting conflict that was happening.

[00:27:33] And so by getting really clear on what the expectations of that owner had and versus working in the business and what the requirements were, and really making the requirements for somebody working in the business. You had to fit the job description and qualifications. That was a huge success and really brought that family back together, but also the success of the business.

[00:27:54] The other one that we've seen. Success. I mentioned earlier, the owner that, you know, a week before transitioning the business to his son was said, you know, maybe I'll stay on for a few more years they stuck with it. They, they signed it over and the business is thriving. It's, it's continuing to grow the energy of the son coming in.

[00:28:16] He's developed a management team under him and. The father is now having, now that he's actually had the chance to go through it, is feeling really satisfied as being an advisor and seeing the success of the business, but not being tied to the business. He was ready to retire.

[00:28:32] Craig Macmillan: That's really great. And I hope everybody has that kind of experience. Is there one thing that you would tell folks on this topic? One piece of advice or one insight?

[00:28:42] Erin Hoffman: One piece of insight is. We, you know, talked about starting sooner than later, but the other one is, you know, planned for the unexpected. it never goes 100 percent like you think it will. And sometimes I'll explain it like you dump out a puzzle and all the puzzle pieces are upside down.

[00:28:57] So you're just taking time to flip over the puzzle pieces and figure it all out. Plan for a few unexpected things to come in there, you know, maybe midway through your finance person decides they're leaving or the loan that they thought the buyer was going to get falls through. There's all kinds of different scenarios.

[00:29:13] So I think having that flexibility and knowing that that's part of the process and planning those multiple paths is really important.

[00:29:21] Craig Macmillan: That's good. Great advice. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:29:25] Erin Hoffman: They can visit our website. It's collaboration llc. com. We're based in San Luis Obispo. We've been on the central coast for over 20 years. So we'd definitely be happy to talk to anybody if they're interested about this topic.

[00:29:40] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. And we will have lots of links and and resources on the show page. So please feel free to check those out. I guess today was Erin Hoffman. She is a senior business consultant and partner in collaboration, business consulting. And I just really want to thank you for being here. This is really interesting.

[00:29:57] It's a topic that most people don't think about.

[00:29:59] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, great. Well, thank you for having me. It's really great to talk about it.

[00:30:07] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening.

[00:30:08] Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products, serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard Industry Products believes that integrity is vital to building a long term customer, employee, and vendor relationships, and they work hard to provide products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard Industry Products gives back by investing in both the community and the industry.

[00:30:32] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to collaboration, business consulting, and their informative blog.

[00:30:38] Plus sustainable wine growing podcast episode. 221, future proof your wine business with omni channel communication.

[00:30:46] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Emma Tessler, Founder & CEO of Ninety Five Media, has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect. Instead of trying to be everywhere, Emma suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video, and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use platform's data to see what people enjoy the most.

Resources:

• 138: 5 Tips for Your Wine Brand's Social Media | Marketing Tip Monday
• 140: Does social media impact wine sales? | Marketing Tip Monday
• 144: Are you using the right message on social media? | Marketing Tip Monday
• 198: 3 Ways to Talk About Sustainability on Social Media
• Becoming an Industry Expert on Social Media
• Emma Tessler | LinkedIn
• Ninety Five Media
• Ninety Five Media | Instagram
• Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling Podcast
• Turn Your Expertise into More Sales by Becoming a Thought Leader on Social Media, with the Ninety Five Media Team (podcast)

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Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle.

Welcome to Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Bets Vukmanic executive director.

In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery.

Speaks with Emma Tessler, founder and CEO of 95 Media. Emma has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect instead of trying to be everywhere. She suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms.

To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use the platform's data to see what people enjoy the most.

We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, customers reported a higher preference for eco and social responsibility labels compared to nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard, winery, or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable Standards apply for certification today by going to SIP certified.org and click on Get certified Now. Let's listen in.

[00:01:39] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Emma Tesler. She is the founder of 95 media. And today we're going to talk about social media. Not surprisingly welcome to the podcast, Emma.

[00:01:48] Emma Tesser: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today.

[00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: First of all, let's talk a little bit, get some kind of grounding. How would you describe your company? 95 media?

[00:01:55] Emma Tesser: We're a digital marketing agency and we really specialize in creating high converting content. We work with a lot of brands who are posting all the time and just simply not seeing results from that content. So that is usually where we come in and we build out customized strategy. High converting content, build that connection with their community and ultimately finally have their marketing convert into sales for them.

At a high level, 95 media is a marketing agency specializing in social media, email and podcast production.

[00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: I'm kind of a dinosaur. So what exactly comes under the umbrella of social media? Because that seems to be a pretty big area.

[00:02:37] Emma Tesser: It is, it definitely is a big umbrella. So when we talk about social media marketing, we're referring to any marketing content. Content that is marketing a brand on any of the social platforms we manage, profiles for brands on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TikTok a few other more specific ones to different industries.

And really social media marketing encompasses your content, your engagement with your audience, the data that comes in from the content. There are a lot of different. avenues when it comes to your marketing and social media in general, but it is broad. And I think that sometimes that's the overwhelming part about it for some individuals and founders, people who are looking to market a brand, but it really doesn't have to be that complicated.

You can really. own one platform really well and see better results by doing that than doing five not so well.

[00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Excellent. And different platforms with these companies, websites, et cetera, that you just discussed. And then content. I wanted to have you kind of elaborate on that a little bit because some things are videos, some things are just audio, some things are just text , what is content and what do we put in content?

[00:03:53] Emma Tesser: Well, content looks different as you said, , between different platforms. So there's always opportunity to repurpose content, but oftentimes that looks like reformatting content as well. I'm a really big believer in. Having consistent brand messaging across all of your content, all of your platforms.

And sometimes that looks like having the same messaging because when we have consistent messaging across every piece of content, it creates a consistent brand experience for our audience to know who we are and ultimately be able to identify our content without like our brand name on it, which is a whole other level of success.

When we look at the individual platforms, You know, Tik Tok is a video only platform. And over on LinkedIn, some people don't think that that's really a video platform, but in fact it is. And LinkedIn is really favoring video content to the point where they actually have a video only feed on the app.

Now that looks very similar to Tik Tok because they see the success that's happening over there, like every other platform. So what I would just encourage, if you're looking at content and you're thinking, Well, how do I do this on all the platforms and do it well? And it not be my entire life. I would look at creating one piece of content and then splitting it up into different formats.

For example, you could take one 30 second video on a topic of something that, you know, really well, and you could. Reformat that video to be long form. It could be short form. You can write a blog post about it. You can make it a carousel for Instagram. You can pick one photo and transcribe that video into your caption. You can make it into your Instagram stories. You LinkedIn article on it. There's so many ways to go about really looking at how can you repurpose your content and have so many different formats of just one idea.

[00:05:42] Craig Macmillan: Why is this important for business? Why can't I just go along like I've always gone along? Maybe I've got a website, put some stuff on there, print advertising, et cetera. Why is social media so important?

[00:05:57] Emma Tesser: Well, the reason it's so important is because the way that consumers are finding and discovering brands has shifted. Prior to, you know, call it five years really has been the biggest shift that we've seen on social, but really just this shift towards social media marketing, which has been in the works since about 2015 or so.

We used to discover brands through going to Google or through word of mouth. You know, we work with a lot of brands who come, we were like, We used to be just referral. Like we used to get all our business through referral, you know, local, this local, that, and it's just dried up and it's not working the same way it used to.

And that is because we're moving towards this culture of social search. There's data that shows that in the last 90 days, 91 percent of consumers used social media and only 84 percent of people went to a search engine like Google. So what. We used to discover on Google, there's actually more people discovering brands on Instagram , than they are in Google today.

So in order to stay competitive, in order to be found and to be showing up in the searches that people are typing in and using keywords that maybe you were once showing up on, on Google, you now need to have your content be showing up on Instagram, on Tik TOK, on LinkedIn. So in order to continue growing, it's really a non negotiable going into 2025 to have a social media presence and to have it. optimize to meet your consumer where they're at.

[00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: You may have actually kind of already touched on this or answered this. I was thinking that, you know, if you just have an Instagram account, does that count as a social media presence? Do I need to be on all these different platforms? And it sounds like what you're saying is it's better to kind of focus on one or two or three and do those really, really well, rather than try to be everywhere all the time for everybody.

[00:07:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah. And I say that because consistency is everything. So if you have the bandwidth for three separate posts per week, it is so much better to have those three pieces of content live on Instagram, then spread it out. So you have one on Instagram, one on LinkedIn, one on Tik TOK, because one post a week is not going to do. Literally anything for you. You need to have consistent quantity of content going out there.

So I would really look at one platform and optimize. And strategically approach that platform so that you're finally getting results there before you add on additional ones. Because you'll be able to take the data from that successful content to know what your audience is looking for and begin to just redo that type of content in different ways for another platform down the road.

[00:08:30] Craig Macmillan: A friend of mine does a lot of Instagram and she says I've got to have at least one thing per week, one thing per week. Is that a good time frame? Do I need to be posting more often, more frequently, shorter bits? What's the, what's the best strategy?

[00:08:43] Emma Tesser: So I don't recommend less than three posts to your feed every week. Less than three posts per week. Again, that's to your feed. That doesn't count like Instagram stories outside of that. But when we look at your feed, the reason why you want to have more content than once per week is because what happens when you post is that the algorithm puts your content out there and it's like, dangling it in front of your audience.

It's waiting for people to bite and engage with that piece of content. If they do, then that piece of content starts being shown to more people. If they don't, it then gets suppressed and the algorithm says, Oh, well, people aren't really liking this. We're not going to show it. But when you post more, you have more opportunities for people to bite and to get more people seeing your content. AKA brand awareness.

Really, every piece of content you're looking to increase your brand awareness because that's your top of funnel. You have to get more reach. You have to get more impressions in order to bring people down the sales funnel to the ultimate conversion point. So more content ultimately just results in more brand awareness, more engagement with your content, more eyes on your brand, which is truly the goal in order to get more people to buy as a secondary result of that piece of content.

[00:09:57] Craig Macmillan: this sounds like getting to folks who are outside just your followers. And, and trying to find new folks to come into your herd, into your house.

[00:10:09] Emma Tesser: How do we do that? Is that the question?

[00:10:11] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, I was just trying to clarify. So what it sounds like, cause like, I've always been like, Oh, how many followers do they have? And then I'm like, well, how do you get new followers? It sounds to me like maybe it's not just about followers. It's about just exposure in general.

[00:10:22] Emma Tesser: It's definitely not about followers. To be honest, that's the metric that I care the least about. We don't work with brands who just want to grow their followers because it's, it truly does not have an impact on your bottom line. What has an impact on your bottom line are the conversations that you're having, the engagement with your content, you know, engagement also looks like your DMS too.

Like if you're not looking at your DMS as an opportunity to sell, you're missing a huge opportunity. Your content can only do so much for you. A couple of years ago, your content could do the heavy lifting, but now a huge part of marketing your brand is really your community engagement. And that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses that like, we kind of come in and we change the game for them because A lot of what we do is actually getting into the account us as humans, getting into the account nurturing the people who already know about them to bring them closer to the sale.

But really a huge part of our work is outbound engagement and bringing in new eyes to the business. And we do that through starting new conversations, leaving comments on people's content, getting in the groups that your ideal client is in and engaging with that content so that they see that comment.

And then go back to your profile. So there's a lot of different angles you can take, but at the end of the day you're trying to increase awareness of your brand, which oftentimes look like your, your reach of your content and your profile. Because ultimately that number has to be bigger for the amount of people who go to your profile to increase and then follow you and then engage with your content and ultimately buy from you.

So we're looking at like this funnel down where you have to start with a big pool of people because. We know that only a very small percentage of those people are ultimately going to buy. And that's okay, but we're only going to make as much of that percentage as we increase the, the top line the top line number.

[00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: In terms of attracting folks there's a concept that you've mentioned in your on your website and your podcast and your blog, which I think is really interesting, and that's the idea of authority and how important it is to be viewed as an authority in the digital space.

How do you define that? Like, what does authority look like? What does it do for you and how do I build it?

[00:12:29] Emma Tesser: Authority really means that you're standing out in your industry. . There's not very many original ideas anymore. There's not very many original things that we can all be doing. , if you look at 95 Media, for example, there's a million and one people in social media marketing these days.

But what makes us different is the way that we approach our content, the way that we approach our clients businesses, the way that we execute our work, and ultimately what that results in is building authority. Building authority can happen in so many different ways, a great way of looking at it is just leaning into the, how you do things and what makes that different.

There's a lot of noise on social and it's easy to feel like You're in a space that's too saturated and it's not worth creating the content because you're just going to get lost in the noise. The thing is, if you have authority and if you have that unique factor to who you are and who your brand is, you do stand out.

And that is ultimately going to be the reason why someone chooses to buy from you rather than the person down the street who does the exact same thing. So rather than hide and Hush down the things that set you apart. I would really lean into them because that is really what's going to A make you stand out, B, give you authority and C it drive more sales for you.

[00:13:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I identify the things that are going to make me stand out? when talking about like the wine business, or the vineyard side, everybody makes wine. Everybody farms. What's the process that I can go through? Like with one of your clients, how do you help them identify what makes them stand out or what makes them interesting?

[00:14:04] Emma Tesser: . So we actually work with a client in the wine space right now. She is a female founder in California where there's not a lot of female winemakers. It's a really unique space and that's a huge part of their mission as well. . Obviously, if you're a mission driven brand leaning hard into that, because the people who care about that mission are going to be your target demographic for buying your product.

And that's a really big part of her marketing is, , we're here for female founders. We're here for being inclusive. We're here for, you know, really raising awareness around an audience that. isn't always spoken to on social in that space. If you aren't a mission driven brand, nothing wrong with it, but I would look at your company, your team.

If you have like a tasting room associated with your, company, or if you do anything different or slightly unique in any part of your process,

sometimes we get caught up. In the details as founders, as business owners, and we start to think that like everything we do is really boring, you know, like, nothing about my day is unique, nothing about the way that we do things is unique, but truly take that step back, maybe ask your team or ask like a really loyal And buyer for you.

Ask someone in your life or like a business coach or someone like, what do you think makes us stand out? What do you think makes us different? Because I would bet to say that someone else is going to be able to easily identify those things for you. Given 10 minutes, because they're on the outside looking in, it's really hard to see it when you're in it, but that is also one of the great benefits of Working with an outside marketing team because that's their job.

You know, we come in and we identify those factors for our clients in that exact way because it's easy to see it on the outside. And also knowing what matters to your target demographic can help you get closer to that understanding too.

[00:15:49] Craig Macmillan: How do I know who my target demographic is? Hahahahaha

[00:15:57] Emma Tesser: job. Like that's, that's the whole business, right? I mean, it's, it's easy to say like, well, you know, most people drink wine, but I have limited knowledge of the wine industry and I don't know that the majority of wine drinkers are women, right? So even if you just started there.

Now you're focusing on 50 percent of the population rather than 100%. And then could you get a little bit more detailed? Could you look at a more specific age range? Could your branding tell you something about the age range that you're targeting? And then you really just kind of go from there. Not to mention, if you have an existing social media presence, you can go into your analytics and it will tell you who's following you.

[00:16:29] Craig Macmillan: And you can use that data to further inform your ideal client avatar.

How do I identify what platforms are gonna be best for me? There's, we've talked about this a little bit, but how do I know whether I should focus on video or podcast or blog posts primarily? How how can I decide whether it should be photo?

[00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I kind of guess at like which type of content, not content itself, but what form it's in, is probably gonna be most effective for me.

[00:16:56] Emma Tesser: the truth is that video is necessary. And that's not the answer anyone wants to hear, but it's not really an option going into 2025, unfortunately, if you want to look at it like that. The thing about video and why I say that is because every platform is favoring video content. So if you back up, like, could you get away with not doing video content?

Sure. But will you be competitive against everyone else in your space? No, you won't. Your content is going to get lost because the video content that your competitors are posting are going to get so much more reach, so much more engagement, connect so much more deeply with the target demographic that you're also after, that your photo content is just going to get lost in the shuffle.

Then that's going to leave you feeling like it's not worth it. And then you're going to stop posting and then it's never going to work for you. So I would say. Commit to the video content no matter what angle you're taking with your content on social media. And then if you look at a podcast, you know, video is an aspect of podcasting as well.

Podcasts give you so many opportunities to reformat and repurpose the content. But I would. Really put your investment, whether that's time or money or content investments into social, your email list things that you have more control over and that are more popular right now versus something like a blog, which is going to be a really long game.

It's going to take time to compound versus you're going to get quicker dopamine hits and successes from social or your podcast. So it's, it's an easier thing to kind of start and stay committed to longterm versus a blog, which just feels like you're talking into a void and not going to see the results from for a long time.

[00:18:34] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. What about length? That's a conversation I've had with a number of people in terms of like, short and tasty is nice, but then also there are folks that are looking for a little bit more in depth. They're looking for a little more complexity in the story that you're trying to tell. What are your feelings about that?

[00:18:50] Emma Tesser: it really goes back to your target demographic. There's not really an overarching answer, I would say, because different. Age ranges, different demographics, different, like, groups are looking for different types of content. What I would recommend doing is testing a variety. So take, like, 90 days to test some short form, meaning like, 10 second videos or shorter, and then test some 30 second videos, test some 90 second videos.

On TikTok, you can post up to 10 minute videos, like try everything and see what's hitting with your audience because your audience is going to tell you what's successful versus someone else's audience might like something different. I would probably lean into say that your shorter form content is going to perform better simply because it's going to keep the attention of your audience longer.

And what's really important. is actually your watch rate. So how much of the video did your audience watch? You're simply going to get a higher watch rate on a 10 second video than you are in a 90 second video. And so therefore that success metric is going to look like your shorter form content is more successful.

But if you get, you know, more comments on a 90 second video, then that's something to consider as well. But I would just really try it all because your audience is going to give you that data on what they really like and what they want more of.

[00:20:07] Craig Macmillan: This just made me think of something because it's a constant battle for me personally. Quality. Quality of production , you see things on Instagram, for instance, I'm on Instagram. I'm not on TikTok. So I see Instagram and some things are just really slick. I mean, they look like Hollywood production and other things are just stuff people shot on their phone and you know, maybe it's not quite level and the light's not perfect and et cetera.

Maybe the music's not so great. How important do you think the production value is to that success rate? I love having people finally move down the funnel.

[00:20:42] Emma Tesser: I would say I think it has a small impact, but it does not have the biggest impact. And I say that because on Instagram, really on any social platform, we're all craving this authenticity from the creator on the other side of the screen. We actually offer a service called quarterly content shoots where we go to our clients and we shoot three months of video content in three hours with them.

So it is done, it's batched, it's ready to go. And we shoot all of that content on our iPhone because we don't want it to feel like there's a team between the brand and the person on the other side of the screen.

Is there a time and place for professionally shot video? I do. I believe so. You know, we work with a lot of like interior designers and architects where you want to have that professional video shot of like your finished product, home, space, whatever that is.

But does that need to be the only type of video you post to social? Absolutely not. Because that is not going to be the content that creates resonance with your audience. That doesn't create connection with your audience. There's just a lot of opportunity to be a little bit more. Real and at the same time care about how the video looks right.

Like if you were to see this video right now, I have lights on me, but we're shooting it on my computer. This is not like a high def camera by any means. And I shoot all of my content with good lighting, but all of my content is shot on my iPhone. So there's different ways to improve the quality without spending thousands and thousands of dollars on like a high def camera or, you know, hiring a videographer. None of that's needed.

[00:22:09] Craig Macmillan: That's good news. How much time investment are we talking about? So you're saying like three posts a week. But we're talking about short form, very short form. There may be a little bit in camera editing or in phone editing possibly, but not a lot. You don't have a lot of a lot of tools there.

If I'm trying to do this myself, there's going to be a steep learning curve on how to do it. And then to create that content is going to take some time. And obviously this is where your company comes in, but like what kind of time investment could somebody expect if they're like, Oh, okay, cool. I'm going to take him as advice and I'm going to do this

[00:22:40] Emma Tesser: Well, if you're looking at just the content, you have to consider all of the aspects, right? So you have to consider , strategizing your content, planning it recording it or creating the graphic, writing the caption, doing your hashtags, scheduling it out getting it posted. There's a lot of different aspects when it comes to just creating content, quote unquote.

So I would say roughly you're probably looking anywhere between five to seven hours just on the content side of things. There's a lot of variables in there. You know, are you writing a short caption or you're writing a long caption? How long is the video? How many graphics are you making? But I would say for a beginner, probably five to seven hours on the content side of things.

Um, Yeah, per week. And then there's the whole other aspect of, well, now you need to engage with your community after you post it. So, I always recommend an hour of engagement on every posting day. So you'd be looking at an extra three hours a week. So, you're really looking at eight to ten hours a week on your content on the very minimal side of things.

And You know, listen, a lot of founders don't have that time, and that's why social media marketing does fall to the wayside, and it becomes the last thing on the to do list, which is, as you said, where we come in, and that is why companies like ours exist, because it, it is such an essential part of business today.

And it's very time consuming. So it's kind of one of those things that you can't live without, but also it's very hard to find time for it to begin with.

[00:24:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which actually brings us around to your story. Your, biography page about us is kind of interesting. How did you get into this?

[00:24:15] Emma Tesser: I found social media marketing when I was actually in college for interior design, I was going for my degree in design and I was like fully, fully thought that that was my career path. Had no doubts about it. And then social media marketing kind of fell into my lap when I was working for somebody else.

And that was back in 2015 when, you know, marketing on social was. laughable. No one thought it was serious. No one saw the potential, but I really saw opportunity when I discovered it. I was like, hold up, why are we not all doing this? Like, why do brands not see what is about to happen here? And it just really like lit a fire in me.

Cause I was like, this is about to explode and I want to be a part of that ride. I really like side hustled, like so many entrepreneurs, I side hustled for five years while I was in the design industry. And then when COVID hit. Brands finally started to wake up and be like, Oh my gosh, like social is the thing that we need.

It's the only way we're going to reach our consumer. 95 media really kind of scaled during 2020 and it's just been on an upward journey since then, but it's really because of the impact that social is able to make on our, on our clients, brands, and that is just. What keeps me coming back in the craziness of everything social and how it changes every single day as we all feel.

It's really the impact of social media that is so exciting and really rewarding to be a part of.

[00:25:35] Craig Macmillan: You were simply asked to take on this task and then you learned it from scratch.

[00:25:40] Emma Tesser: I did.

[00:25:43] Craig Macmillan: Well, that's inspirational. That's inspirational that

[00:25:45] Emma Tesser: Well, to be fair, back in, in 2015, there were a lot less features and there was a lot less like messiness on social. And there, but at the same time, there was. So little educational content on social media marketing. So I actually like podcasting was a huge part of my own education, learning social media marketing.

I was listening to like the OG marketers, like Jenna Kutcher and Amy Porterfield back in 2015 in their starting days. And they're still creating content today, but it was really hard to learn. And today there's so much education online about social media marketing, which is beautiful. It's just a little overwhelming because there is so much opportunity out there at the exact same time.

We all have to learn marketing to some degree. It's just depends on how far you want to go down that journey before you're like, okay, it's time to hire somebody else to do this for me.

[00:26:30] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to something because I just thought about it. You mentioned data. I'm a, I'm a data person. I love data. Yeah. All kinds. First of all, how do I get it, and then what do I do with it?

[00:26:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah, that's a, it's a great question. If we just look at Instagram in particular, cause obviously it's the one that we all know the best Instagram gives you an insane amount of data on everything that you do down to like every single post, every single story that you put out there, it will give you. tons of information on your audience's reaction to that content, including how was it found? What type of people were engaging with it? What were the actions that they took with it? You know, so much. The part of your question that's so good is what do I do with that information? , what do I do from here?

I see it. Like, I know it's there, but like, what do we do?

What I would recommend doing is actually looking at that data on a weekly basis and then monthly doing a little bit of a zoom out as well, because week to week, your content's really going to fluctuate. You're going to see a lot of like big ups and really low lows and you're going to panic and you're like, well, nothing's working.

But really when you zoom out on a monthly basis, you get to see, okay, here are trends. The trend is showing me that video content is far surpassing any photo that I put out there. I got to do more of that or you know, I, I created some graphics this month, but graphics are actually really not doing well.

So I'm just going to lean more into just single photos or video content and omit the care, the graphic content for the next month and see how that does. So Cool. Really utilizing that data to say, let's do more of this. Let's stop doing that and then test all over again. It's a lot of A B testing with your data.

[00:28:08] Craig Macmillan: That's fascinating. That's interesting., what's one takeaway that you would have, you'd tell growers, or winemakers, or winery owners, founders, on this topic?

[00:28:17] Emma Tesser: Well, what I would say specifically to this audience is that your demographic, whether or not you're super clear on it or not, but your demographic is looking for your product on social, like without a doubt, your target demographic is on social. They're buying products on social. And your job is simply to meet them where they're at.

That's it. So if you can just get consistent content up there, I can nearly guarantee, this is not legal advice, but I can nearly guarantee that you will see more conversions from your content. The problem and the thing that really holds a lot of brands You know, in this space back is just a lack of consistency and an understanding of who you're talking to.

But in fact, your audience, like the female audience, you know, from 21 to like 60 who's drinking wine, like it's a big demographic. They're on social and they're the primary buyers for their household. And not only that, but they're the ones consuming the product. So that is like a win win win across the board for this industry.

It really just means if you can get your messaging down and you can create content that really resonates with that audience, you have a massive opportunity to tap into sales that you've never been looking at before.

[00:29:27] Craig Macmillan: And I can get a sense of that resonance by looking at my data and seeing who's watching what and when.

[00:29:32] Emma Tesser: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:29:35] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Emma, where can people find out more about you?

[00:29:38] Emma Tesser: Yeah. So our website is 95media. co. We're on every social platform, but Instagram's my favorite. It's 90. 5. media all spelled out N I N E T Y. F I V E. media. And we post nearly every single day, so you can find us whenever you're at on, on the platforms. And we also have a podcast, it's called Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling, where we share all things marketing.

So if you want to dive a little bit deeper, that's a great show to tune into as well.

[00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, I guess today's been Emma Tesler. She's founder and CEO of 95 Media. Fascinating conversation. Thanks for being on the podcast. It's been really fun.

[00:30:12] Emma Tesser: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:30:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products. Serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products, gives back investing in both the community and industry.

Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Emma at 95 Media and their popular podcast. Stop scrolling. Start Scaling Plus sustainable Wine Growing podcast episodes, 138 five tips for your wine brand. Social media 140 the social media impact wine sales. 144 are you using the right message on social media and 198 three ways to talk about sustainability on social media.

If you like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the [email protected]/podcast and you can reach us at [email protected].

Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered "how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?"

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we're revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one.

1. Engaged Explorers

Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers.

Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They'll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine.

2. Premium Brand Suburban

Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists.

Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They'll love the insight and attention to detail.

3. Contended Treaters

Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don't drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles.

Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific sustainable practice from your sustainable story worksheet.

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

4. Social Newbies

Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information.

Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P's of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They'll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.

5. Senior Bargain Hunters

Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value.

Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.

6. Kitchen Casuals

Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know.

Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course. Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member