The Courageous Life

Every one of us will experience pain, 

be it back pain, 

the pain of childbirth, 

or living in an aging body. 

Not a single one of us will escape. 

But what if everything you thought you knew about pain was ... wrong?

Many of us have been told that pain is purely physical, 

something to do just with bones and body parts. 

In her revolutionary new book: Tell Me Where it Hurts: The New Science of Pain and How to Heal

Leading global pain psychologist, pain scientist, and Assistant Clinical Professor at the UCSF School of Medicine, 

Dr. Rachel Zoffness is completely upending the myths we've been sold about pain.

Through cutting edge neuroscience and the incredible work she’s done with her patients, 

Dr. Zoffness is shedding light on the fact is that chronic pain is treatable. 

And that the foundation for effective treatment happens when we focus on the whole person--not just a body part.

It happens when we begin to reconnect physical and emotional pain,

And it happens when we begin to uncover the often under-discussed truth: 

Pain is constructed by the brain--influenced not just by injuries, but also by emotions, expectations, and environment. 

In Rachel’s words: Pain is always biopsychosocial.

And because of this,

We have infinitely more control over pain than we might have ever imagined.

This insight, and the pioneering work Dr. Zoffness is doing, 

Are offering what so many of us need in the face of pain: 

• Greater agency, 
• Hope, 
• Possibility, 

And perhaps most importantly, 

A roadmap for healing.

For more on Dr. Zoffness, her books, events, resources, and other offerings please visit zoffness.com

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Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations we think you'll love:

• On Why We Suffer and How We Heal | Dr. Suzan Song
• On Flourishing Despite Life's Challenges | Richard Davidson & Cortland Dahl
• On Presence, Community, and Flourishing | Daniel Coyle

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Two time Emmy and Peabody Award winning Documentary Filmmaker 

Deeyah Khan has dedicated over a decade of her life to making empathetic and unflinching films which deal with some of the most important and polarizing issues confronting our world today; 

extremism, violence against women, inequality, racism and social exclusion.

Deeyah has filmed with:

battle-hardened jihadis, 

members of armed militia groups, 

American domestic terrorists and white supremacists, 

And through these encounters she’s had illuminating and often surprising results. 

After spending a number of months filming with members of the United States’ largest neo-Nazi organization, 

three high-ranking figures, including the leader, left the movement and rejected its white supremacist ideology. 

All of them crediting their encounters with Deeyah as the catalyst for them to leave.

Today we’ll engage in a deep and moving discussion about what Deeyah has learned from her unique and extraordinary experiences. 

Learnings that in essence come back to the power and potential of:

• Radical curiosity,
• Deep listening,
• Choosing Love,
• And having a fierce and unwavering commitment to center the inherent dignity of all human beings.

This is the final conversation in our mini series on Love. 

A four letter word that is perhaps one of the most complicated in our culture,

and yet simultaneously may be the most important practice for our time. 

This series, which has been years in the making ultimately brought together some of the world’s leading:

• Peace and reconciliation workers, 
• Conflict transformation experts,
• Scholars on compassion, altruism, and generosity,
• Storytellers,
• Writers, 
• Filmmakers
• And spiritual teachers 

To unpack how Love, 

as Deeyah so beautifully puts it,

"Is, and has always been, the great interrupter." 

Love is what can help to break cycles of violence, hatred, and polarization.

Love is what connects us.

Love is what liberates.

Love is what heals.

Love is what brings us back to each other. 

And Choosing Love is exactly what these times are calling for. 

For more on Deeyah, her films, music, and other offerings please visit deeyah.com 

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations from our mini-series on Love:

• On the Possibility of Meeting Hate with Love | Dr. Barbara Tint
• On Love and the Illusion of Separateness | Elias Amidon
• On Awakening, Belonging, and Love | Henry Shukman
• On Love, Storytelling, and Radical Curiosity | Baktash Ahadi
• On the Power of Love | Stephen G. Post

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For decades globally renowned spiritual teacher Elias Amidon has been keenly interested in the possibility of awakening to our most enlightened nature.

This fascination has led him to live a deeply engaged life. 

Serving as Spiritual Director (Pir) of the Sufi Way,

Working for many years in peace and environmental activism,

Helping to cofound several schools including the Boulder Institute for Nature and the Human Spirit, and the graduate program in Environmental Leadership at Naropa University.

And authoring a wide array of books that often invite reflection and inquiry into the very nature of reality. 

Today we will continue our deep exploration of Love, in this penultimate episode of a mini-series that has featured some of the world's leading thinkers, researchers, teachers, storytellers, activists, and artists. 

In this conversation, we'll explore some of Elias's greatest insights into what it is that connects us all. 

A subject which he reflects on often,

Writing the following in his book, Love’s Drum: Sufi Views, Practices, and Stories: 

"Whatever we call it, this-that-does-not-perish is what connects us with everything 

- each other, the trees, the mountains, the sky, the stars, 

and all beings who have ever appeared. 

We remain the unique beings we are, 

but we recognize we're not alone in our beingness, we are with the entirety. 

I think of this withness as love.” 

Elias’s work invites us all to open to the possibility of awakening and experiencing the beauty all around us,

As we make our way home, to Love. 

A journey of return that he calls 

our birthright. 

To learn more about Elias, his retreats, courses, books, and other offerings please visit sufiway.org.

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations from our mini-series on Love:

• On the Possibility of Meeting Hate with Love | Dr. Barbara Tint
• On Awakening, Belonging, and Love | Henry Shukman
• On Love, Storytelling, and Radical Curiosity | Baktash Ahadi
• On the Power of Love | Stephen G. Post

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How can we find the courage to come back to love in perilous times? 

To meet hate with curiosity? 

And to see, with greater clarity, what connects us, rather divides us?

These are the deep and challenging questions we’re continuing to explore in 

A mini-series on the podcast that has brought together leaders across 

disciplines to discuss the possibility of embracing impermanence, 

leaning into mystery & wonder, 

And is now turning the final conversations in the series 

toward love. 

Dr. Barbara Tint holds her PhD in International Conflict Resolution,

Is a Professor of Conflict Transformation,

Has been doing peace and reconciliation work around the world for decades, 

And is also an award winning story teller who has shared stories through The Moth and other renowned venues. 

Today we’ll dive deep into the possibility, 

and the courage it can take, 

to choose love in challenging times,  

Barb will share stories from her experiences facilitating constructive dialogue, 

Building bridges across differences as a peace psychologist, 

And what she’s learned about the power of improvisation, and curiosity, through her work.  

Barb offers us all a beautiful reminder. 

If we can find a way to suspend our judgments and assumptions, 

If we can find a way to get curious, 

To listen deeply, and in ways that lead to understanding each other,

Then there’s hope that we might find our way through this,

together. 

For more on Dr. Tint, her books, events, and other offerings, please visit barbaratint.com

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations from our mini-series on Love:

• On Awakening, Belonging, and Love | Henry Shukman
• On Love, Storytelling, and Radical Curiosity | Baktash Ahadi
• On the Power of Love | Stephen G. Post

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In his revelatory book Original Love, 

Zen meditation master, award winning author, poet, and renowned spiritual teacher Henry Shukman,

offers a tantalizing proposition. 

At any moment there is a powerful possibility available to us.

One that involves piercing the illusion of separateness,

And experiencing a deeper and more expansive sense of connection. 

In these moments which are deemed by some as ‘awakening'

it can seem as if a spell has been broken.

It can feel as though are waking up from a sort of dream 

as we see, feel, and know that there is in fact no separation. 

There are no borders. 

There is no “other.” 

At some level, everything and everyone are connected. 

Henry argues that these experiences can be the single most healing, positively life-transforming events that can happen to us. 

Well documented for centuries, across different wisdom traditions, and now explored through scientific research,

Experiences of 'waking up' to our interconnected nature often lead to large positive shifts in our priorities.

These moments often marked by a move from self-protection and self-promotion 

toward a natural flow of compassion and concern for others and the world.

This boundless experience is what Henry calls Original Love. 

Today we decided to re-release this episode as part of our mini series on love. 

In this conversation, (originally published at the beginning of 2025), 

Henry and I will explore the possibility of Original Love. 

An experience that Henry beautifully reminds us becomes more likely  

When we begin to:

• Allow whatever is arising in the moment to simply be as it is, 
• Meet our lived experience with greater curiosity, presence, and love,
• And when we begin to loosen the grip of control as we learn to increasingly relax into uncertainty. 

For more on Henry, his books, teachings and live events, please visit henryshukman.com or check out The Way, his popular meditation app - which you can find at thewayapp.com

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations from our mini-series on Love:

• On Love, Storytelling, and Radical Curiosity | Baktash Ahadi
• On the Power of Love | Stephen G. Post

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What does it mean to choose love in the times we're in?

What will help us to open our hearts again after they close? 

And see with greater clarity, what connects us, rather divides us?

These are the deep and challenging questions we’re exploring in the final chapter of this trilogy. 

A mini series on the podcast that has brought together leaders across disciplines to discuss the possibilities of:

Embracing impermanence, 

Leaning into mystery & wonder, 

And is now turning the conversation toward love. 

Emmy and Peabody Award Winning Filmmaker, Baktash Ahadi writes:

“Growing up across cultures, languages, and histories shaped by conflict, I learned early that facts alone rarely move people. 

Stories do. 

They shape belonging, fear, loyalty, and identity. 

Long before I became a filmmaker, I was already paying attention to how narratives functioned beneath the surface of everyday life.”

I wrote to Baktash and asked him:

Could storytelling be part of the answer to these questions? 

Could storytelling be what helps us find our way back to each other? 

Today’s conversation will traverse this territory.   

Including the insights Baktash has gained through documentary work across conflict zones, classrooms, institutions, and intimate human spaces. 

The patterns he’s uncovered. 

The ways in which Narratives have structure, how they carry emotional momentum, 

And how ultimately they shape how people interpret themselves, each other, and the world. 

Baktash offers a powerful reminder:

When mishandled, Narratives flatten complexity and deepen division. 

But when handled with care, they create space for dignity, curiosity, and connection.

And ultimately the profoundly human practice of sharing, 

and listening to each others stories, 

may be what helps us 

to love again. 

For more on Baktash, his films, podcast, events, and other work please visit baktashahadi.org. For more on his recent documentary Champions of the Golden Valley, please visit: https://www.championsofthegoldenvalley.com/

Enjoying the show? Please rate it wherever you listen to your podcasts!

Other conversations in the trilogy:

Part One: Impermanence:

• Impermanence, Letting Go, and Finding Freedom | Sharon Salzberg & Sunita Puri
• On Work, Friendship, and Embracing Impermanence | Parker Palmer & Jerry Colonna
• On Love, Death, and Embracing Our Humanity | Roshi Joan Halifax & Frank Ostaseski

Part Two: Mystery & Wonder

• On the Power of Wonder | Monica Parker 
• On Ordinary Mysticism, Wonder, and Love | MIrabai Starr
• On Living a Life That Brings us Truly Alive | Lee Johnson

Part Three: Love

• On the Power of Love | Stephen G. Post

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Professor Stephen G. Post, one of the world’s leading scholars on altruism, 

love, compassion, and the science of giving, has a beautiful new book out: 

Pure Unlimited Love: Science and the 7 Paths to Inner Peace.

In it, he writes:

When the happiness, security, and well-being of another feels as meaningful and real to us as our own, or perhaps more so, we love that person.

This love, which Stephen has made a central focus through his life’s work across 4 decades,

As a researcher, a writer, a professor of preventive medicine 

and founder of the Institute for Research on Pure Unlimited Love.

Is the type of love that includes, but extends beyond, our nearest and dearest 

to all humanity. 

It’s love that is based on our shared dignity and interdependence with one another 

and with nature.

In this conversation, which we are re releasing today we’ll dive deep into the topic of love as we kick off the third installment in this trilogy over the coming weeks. 

This trilogy began with a focus on embracing impermanence, 

Then in part two explored the power of mystery and wonder, 

and is now ending with (in Stephen’s words): 

A scientific and spiritual exploration of how the healing power of love can 

transform mind, body, and spirit in individuals and communities, 

even in times of chaos.

This conversation serving as a hopeful reminder -

When we choose love, it isn’t just a path to inner peace,

It opens up the possibility of creating a better world. 

For more on Stephen, his books, research, and other resources please visit stephengpost.com and for more on the Institute for Research on Pure Unlimited Love check out: unlimitedloveinstitute.org

Enjoying the show? Please rate it wherever you listen to your podcasts!

Other conversations in the trilogy:

• Impermanence, Letting Go, and Finding Freedom | Sharon Salzberg & Sunita Puri
• On Work, Friendship, and Embracing Impermanence | Parker Palmer & Jerry Colonna
• On Love, Death, and Embracing Our Humanity | Roshi Joan Halifax & Frank Ostaseski
• On the Power of Wonder | Monica Parker 
• On Ordinary Mysticism, Wonder, and Love | MIrabai Starr
• On Living a Life That Brings us Truly Alive | Lee Johnson

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For two decades, Matt Kaplan has covered science for The Economist. 

He’s seen breakthroughs often occur in spite of, rather than because of, the behavior of the research community, 

and how support can be withheld for those who don’t conform or have the right connections. 

In his latest book, I Told You So! Scientists Who Were Ridiculed, Exiled and Imprisoned… For Being Right, 

Matt shines a light on some of these cases, both past and present. 

From Galileo being threatened with torture 

To Nobel laureate Katalin Karikó being fired when on the brink of discovering how to wield mRNA–a finding that proved pivotal for the creation of the Covid-19 vaccine. 

In today’s conversation we’ll explore some of these stories, 

Why scientists have had to fight for their revolutionary ideas to be accepted, 

And reflections on how we can, and need to, do better. 

Matt’s work offers a poignant reminder:

If we are going to solve the grand challenges we’re facing,

From natural disasters to global pandemics,

We need science. 

And, we need each other.

The creativity, innovation, and scientific discovery

That will help us find our way forward

Will come from more humble ways of working together, 

Recognizing our shared humanity,

And ultimately redesigning the systems scientists work in -

to prioritize collaboration over cutthroat competition.

For more on Matt, his books, writing, and other offerings please visit: somuchsciencesolittletime.com

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Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations we think you'll love:

• On the Remedy for a World on Fire | Dr. Joanna Cheek
• On How to Flourish After Leaving Religion | Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren
• On Unlocking Our Primal Intelligence | Angus Fletcher

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Why is it so hard to speak up even when you know something's wrong? 

This is the question that physician, award-winning organizational psychologist, and tenured Professor at Cornell University, 

Dr. Sunita Sah has been obsessed with for decades. 

In her illuminating book: Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes

She asks us:

"How many times have you wanted to object, disagree, or opt out of something—but ended up swallowing your words, shaking your head, and just going along?" 

And then she invites us:

To imagine the life we want to lead, not the one we’re willing to accept. 

In today's conversation we’ll dive deep into the topic of defiance, 

Why the pressure to comply and ‘go along to get along’ is a corrosive and often invisible force in our society,

And, through an exploration of her revelatory research, 

How we can radically reframe defiance from a misunderstood negative trait into a crucial, positive force for personal and societal change. 

Sunita’s pioneering work couldn’t be more timely. 

In many ways it serves as a lantern for our times - 

Shining a much needed light on the path we can all take 

To stop people pleasing,

To start living our truth, 

and to speak up when it matters most.

For more on Dr. Sah, her book, speaking, and other offerings, please visit sunitasah.com

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations we think you'll love:

• On the Science of Mastering Your Intuition | Laura Huang
• On Saving Ourselves and the World | john a. powell
• On Honoring the Soul (Pt. 1) | Parker J. Palmer

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In their powerful new book, Born to Flourish,

Renowned neuroscientists and contemplative teachers 

Dr. Richard J. Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl offer a radical and hopeful idea:

All of us come into the world with an innate capacity for kindness, compassion, and human flourishing. 

Through a powerful blend of storytelling, pioneering research, and ancient Buddhist wisdom, 

they reveal how reconnecting with our true nature can transform not only ourselves but also our divided world.

In today’s conversation we’ll explore the landscape of human potential, 

and the possibility of flourishing in the face of life’s challenges.  

In many ways this exploration is rooted in one of the most important and hopeful scientific findings of our time. 

The fact that our brains are far more malleable than most of us assume, 

And that when we engage in practices which Richie and Cort have discovered take only minutes a day, 

we can profoundly reshape how we respond to stress, 

connect with others,

understand ourselves, 

and ultimately infuse our lives with greater meaning and purpose. 

Named one of the most influential people in the world by Time, 

Richie has been a pioneer in contemplative science, and the domain of human flourishing for decades.

Much of his work coming out of The Center for Healthy Minds. 

A center that he founded and where he serves as Director. 

It was at the Center where Richie and Cort first met - A chance encounter that in many ways felt more like it was destined to be. 

Since then they have collaborated closely together, and become good friends in the process. 

Today they’ll share more about this beautiful collaboration, and what’s come from it, including the four key skills of flourishing that they’ve identified through their research.

What is so refreshing about their work is that it is (in many ways) a departure from the popular paradigms of quick fixes, and self improvement projects.  

Instead they argue that flourishing is about rediscovering something we already have.

It’s about returning to our innate capacities for kindness, compassion, and basic goodness. 

And perhaps most importantly 

They remind us that these capacities can be strengthened by anyone — 

regardless of background, experience, or circumstance.

For more on Richie and Cort, their new book Born to Flourish, the award winning Healthy Minds App which Richie and Cort created together, as well as other offerings including their podcast, and substack, Dharmlab please visit humin.org, or check out centerhealthyminds.org

Enjoying the show? Please rate it wherever you listen to your podcasts!

Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations we think you'll love:

• On Unwinding Anxiety and Finding Inner Peace | Dr. Jud Brewer
• Meditation, Awakening, and Original Love | Henry Shukman
• On the Transformative Power of Equanimity | Margaret Cullen

Thanks for listening!

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