Today, we’re sharing a special live recording of The Disagreement at the Harvard Graduate School of Education*. Our topic: Parents' Rights and K-12 Curriculum. This is our first live recording in a university class, and we are incredibly appreciative of Professor Jim Peyser and his students for having us.

This episode was sparked by the judgement in the recent Supreme Court case, Mahmoud v. Taylor (24-297), which ruled in favor of allowing parents to “opt-out” children from lessons that did not align with their religious beliefs. It was a highly controversial ruling and has the potential to reshape U.S. public education on both national and local levels.

*A Note: The Harvard Graduate School of Education recently launched the Dialogue Across Differences initiative, which fosters conversations on a wide range of topics from diverse perspectives. Please note that the views and opinions expressed by our guests today are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect those of HGSE or Harvard University.

The Questions:

• To what extent should parents be allowed to opt their children out of K-12 school curriculum and courses?
• In a pluralistic society, how should decisions about what should—and should not—be part of school curriculum be made and by whom?
• To what extent is exposing children to views that differ from their religious, cultural, or ideological beliefs an essential component of, or threat to, public education?

The Guests

Jennifer Berkshire is a writer and co-host of a biweekly podcast on education, policy, and politics, Have You Heard? She teaches a course on the politics of public education at Yale University and, through the Boston College Prison Education Program, is an instructor in a Massachusetts prison. Jennifer is the author of The Education Wars, which examines the impact of the culture wars on the foundation of public education.

Naomi Schaefer Riley is a journalist and senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. She is the author of several books across a variety of topics, including No Way to Treat a Child: How the Foster Care System, Family Courts, and Racial Activists Are Wrecking Young Lives, and Be the Parent, Please. A lot of Naomi’s work focuses on child welfare, child protective services, foster care, and adoption. 

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today, we’re continuing our How to Disagree series with an episode called How to Disagree On Gaza and Zohran Mamdani.

A reminder: these episodes feature coaching sessions and real-life disagreements. Our goal is to equip everyone with the skills (and some inspiration) to more productively disagree.

Please note: this session was recorded live, on Substack, this summer. And as you know, quite a lot has changed since then…But with the NYC mayoral election today, we thought this was the right time to share this conversation.

In this episode, journalist, podcast host and author Anya Kamenetz meets with the New York Times best-selling conflict guru, Amanda Ripley. Anya was struggling with discussing not only the war in Gaza, but also how the war, and divergent information sources, were complicating discussions with a close friend over Zohran Mamdani’s candidacy in the New York City mayor’s race.

The session features in-depth coaching from Amanda on the concepts of “looping” an opposing argument and identifying the “understory,” tools we can all use to keep our disagreements healthy. And if you’re listening from NYC, perhaps they can specifically help in conversations unfolding in your own life.

The Questions:

How do we discuss politics with friends and family who are not only reading different news sources, but who have internalized beliefs different to our own?

How do you listen tactically and how can you encourage those in your life to do the same?

How can you identify the understory for yourself and your counterpart in a disagreement?

The Guests

Anya Kamenetz is a journalist and the author of The Gold Hour on Substack. Her work primarily focuses on the intersection of children, well-being, education, and climate change. She covered education for many years, including for NPR, where she co-created the podcast Life Kit: Parenting. Her last book was The Stolen Year: How Covid Changed Children’s Lives, And Where We Go Now.

Amanda Ripley is a New York Times bestselling author, a Washington Post contributing columnist, and the co-founder of Good Conflict, a media and training company that helps people reimagine conflict. She has written three award-winning, nonfiction books about three very different subjects: High Conflict, The Smartest Kids in the World, and The Unthinkable

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today, we’re doing the second episode in our new series: How to Disagree.

A reminder: these episodes feature coaching sessions and real-life disagreements. Our goal is to equip everyone with the skills (and some inspiration) to more productively disagree. 

On to the episode…You know that feeling when you walk into a room and realize someone’s talking about you? Imagine that on steroids: you tune into a Substack Live to learn your friend is talking about your disagreement in front of an audience! 

That’s exactly the set up for today’s episode, a follow-up to How to Disagree about Gender with a Close Friend (Part I). In Part II, we get to hear from Larissa Phillips’ friend, “Jane,” and see them bring Bob Bordone’s coaching to life as they navigate their disagreement and a new chapter in their friendship.

The Questions:

• Is it possible to remain close friends after growing apart ideologically?
• How can you remain curious when you strongly disagree?
• Are there some topics we should avoid entirely as friends? Is gender one of them? And how did it get this way?

The Guests

Larissa Phillips is a columnist for The Free Press whose work focuses on finding community and fostering relationships as a Democrat living in the rural Hudson Valley. She is also the Director and Founder of the Volunteer Literacy Project, teaching basic literacy to adults. 

Christina Thyssen is a writer, story coach, and professor of writing and literature at the University at Albany. She is the co-founder of Hudson Valley Story Workshops and runs a story slam in Catskill, NY. Christina also teaches writing and storytelling to prisoners. 

A special thank you to Larissa and Christina for going on this journey with us. It took a tremendous amount of courage. And if you haven’t already, check out Larissa’s excellent article on her experience with us in The Free Press.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today, we’re introducing the first episode in a new series: How to Disagree. As we expand our work to model and enable productive disagreement across lines of difference, we are trying something new with “How To Disagree.” Instead of bringing together experts to have a productive disagreement on social or political issues, we’re delving into interpersonal disagreements.

Episodes will feature coaching sessions with an individual struggling with a real-life disagreement (with a friend, family member or colleague) working with a world-class conflict resolution expert. Through these sessions, our guests will learn how to approach their particular rift, as well as more general skills and tools on how to more productively disagree. 

The first in this series is How to Disagree About Gender with a Close Friend, featuring Larissa Phillips. We actually recorded this session with Larissa live on Substack, and are very excited to share a produced version with you. Also, check out Larissa’s excellent article on her experience with us in The Free Press.

The Questions:

• How do we discuss politics with our friends when we don’t see eye to eye?
• How do we engage one another without trying to persuade?
• How do we prepare for disagreements on hot button topics like gender?

The Guests

Larissa Phillips is a columnist for The Free Press whose work focuses on finding community and fostering relationships as a Democrat living in the rural Hudson Valley. She is also the Director and Founder of the Volunteer Literacy Project, teaching basic literacy to adults. 

Bob Bordone is a senior fellow at Harvard Law School who has spent the last 25 years teaching negotiation and conflict resolution. He teaches negotiation to individuals and teams with a particular interest in addressing the United States’ polarized climate. Bob recently wrote a book with a neuroscientist called Conflict Resilience: Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Recently, First Lady Melania Trump convened the second White House Task Force on Artificial Intelligence in Education. There is simultaneously an incredible amount of excitement around AI in schools and just beneath it, a sort of terror about its potential impacts and all we do not know. We wanted to take a macro approach and examine the current state of AI in education, its promise, the fears, and what the near future may look like.

The Questions:

• Is AI in the classroom a force for good?
• Can we still produce critical thinkers in an AI-driven classroom?
• Will AI just be another ed tech flash in the pan?

To have this conversation, we brought together two leading eduction experts with nuanced, divergent views on the roles technology, and AI specifically, should play for teachers and students.

Eric Westendorf is a former principal who founded the ed tech company LearnZillion, and now is the co-CEO of Coursemojo, which is using AI to enhance in-class learning by supporting teachers in providing the right support for every student.

Justin Reich is an Associate Professor in Comparative Media Studies and Director at MIT Teaching Systems Lab, and is the author of a new book, Failure to Disrupt: Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education.

Two notes on terms. Our guests mention NAEP: the National Assessment of Education Progress. There's also discussion of the Alpha School: a network of US private schools that combines AI-driven adaptive software for core academics with in-person adult “Guides” who act as mentors. It operates in Texas, Florida, Arizona, and California. According to Alpha School, their combination of technology and mastery based learning allows children learn core subjects in just two hours daily.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today's disagreement is about US Selective Public High Schools. These schools, also known as “Exam Schools”, are elite publicly funded high schools that have historically relied on a single entrance exam to determine admission.  You’ve likely heard of many of them:

In Boston, you have Boston Latin, the oldest public high school in the country. Alums include Ben Franklin and Sam Adams. In New York: You’ve got Stuyvesant, whose alums include U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder, and, of coruse, Timothy Chalamet. New York also has The Bronx High School of Science, whose alums have more Nobel prizes (9) than any other high school in the world. In Northern Virginia, there's Thomas Jefferson (or TJ), established in 1985 and one of the newest selective high schools. It has spent many years rated the #1 High School in the Country by U.S. News and World Report.

In the episode, we ask a number of questions: What is the purpose of these schools? Should they exist? Are standardized entrance exams the best path to meritocratic admissions? How concerned should we be about diversity and equity and whether student bodies are representative of their surrounding communities?

Ian Rowe is the CEO and cofounder of Vertex Partnership Academies, a virtues-based International Baccalaureate high school in the Bronx. He is also a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. His most recent books is “Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to Power”

Stefan Redding Lollinger is the Executive Director of Next100, a multi-issue, progressive policy think tank. He’s a Scholar in Residence at American University and the first Director of a Century Foundation initiative to advance diversity and integration in schools and neighborhoods.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today’s disagreement is about college and its worth-it-ness. Does the traditional college model still make sense in today’s economy? Should we embrace shorter-term skills-based alternatives? And how can institutions balance access, affordability, and workforce readiness in a rapidly changing world?

Ryan Craig is a Managing Director at Achieve Partners and co-founder of Apprenticeships for America. Ryan is also the author of Apprentice Nation: How the "Earn and Learn" Alternative to Higher Education Will Create a Stronger and Fairer America.

Dr. Bridget Burns is founding CEO of the University Innovation Alliance, a ‘multi-campus laboratory’ for student success in higher education. Previously, Dr. Burns served as an American Council on Education Fellow at Arizona State University and a Senior Policy Advisor and Chief of Staff for the Oregon University System.

Episode Notes

02:00 - Bridget's Perspective
04:15 - Ryan's Counterpoint
06:12 - Defining 'Worth It': Beyond Economic ROI
09:59 - The Role of Higher Education in Society
15:19 - The Need for Accountability and Reform
17:14 - The Apprenticeship Dilemma
21:04 - College or Chipotle
21:32 - The European Model vs. The American System
22:59 - The Need for Adaptability and Social Skills
25:05 - The Cost and Value of College Education
26:17 - The Future of College and Employment
33:28 - Steel Man

This episode was recorded live in San Diego at the annual ASU+GSV Summit. You can watch the live stream of it on YouTube.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Earlier this year, President Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending birthright citizenship. He has placed this issue at the forefront of his immigration agenda and it is now being taken up by the Supreme Court. To have this conversation, we’ve brought together a constitutional law scholar and a political commentator.

Cristina Rodríguez is the Leighton Homer Surbeck Professor of Law at Yale Law School. In 2021, she was appointed by President Biden to co-chair the Commission on the Supreme Court of the United States. Her recent book is called The President and Immigration Law. She’s also the co-host of the new podcast: Unsettled: Immigration in Turbulent Times.

Rod D. Martin writes The Rod Martin Report on Substack. He is also the Founder and CEO of Martin Capital. As a tech entrepreneur and venture capitalist, Rod was previously an advisor to Peter Thiel. Rod also served as policy director to Mike Huckabee, the former Governor of Arkansas.

We talk a lot about the 14th Amendment in this episode. It was ratified in 1868 to give formerly enslaved people the right to vote. Here’s what it says: “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” Keep that phrase in mind. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” It’ll come up a lot.

Our guests also discuss the Supreme Court cases Elk v Wilkins, Slaughterhouse, and Wong Kim Ark. All you need to know for this episode is: those rulings influenced the interpretation of the 14th Amendment. Last note, this episode is moderated by co-host and co-founder, Catherine Cushenberry.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today’s disagreement is about college campus detentions, due process, and free speech.

We focus on the two most high-profile cases: Mahmoud Khalil: a green card holder, legal resident, and graduate student at Columbia University who had a leadership role within CUAD, which stands for Columbia University Apartheid Divest; and Rümeysa Öztürk: a graduate student at Tufts University who is a student visa holder. She co-authored an op-ed in the campus newspaper supporting a resolution to divest from Israel. We also briefly touch on the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case and President Bukele’s recent visit to the oval office.

Is there a legal basis for these deportations and what are the implications for free speech and due process? What does it mean to be an American? What kind of country do we want to live in? Are these deportations “good for the Jews”?

Graeme Wood is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a lecturer in political science at Yale University, where he has taught since 2014. Graeme has been a Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, a visiting professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and a fellow at the United States Naval Academy.

Ilya Shapiro is a senior fellow and director of constitutional studies at the Manhattan Institute. He writes a Substack called Shapiro's Gavel and his new book is called Lawless: The Miseducation of America’s Elites.

One note: We had a few issues with audio quality - it’s not up to our normal standards - but it should not significantly impact your listening experience. Alright, take a deep breath, open your mind as far as it’s willing to go, and prepare for a different kind of conversation on campus deportations.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

In March, we recorded an episode live on stage at SXSW EDU in Austin, Texas. This disagreement is all about ESAs, or Education Savings Accounts. You may have heard of ESAs under a different name, like vouchers or school choice programs. Right now, 18 states have some sort of ESA program in place.

The programs are becoming more popular across the country, but should they be? What accounts for the increasing support for ESAs? What risks and benefits do they pose for students and families? Does the rise of ESAs inherently harm our public schools?

When we say ESAs, we are NOT talking about 529 plans or other college savings programs. We’re talking about K-12 education. These programs create a government-authorized savings account for families, allowing them to take some quantity of the funding that would have supported their child in public school, and use those dollars in the way they see fit: whether that’s to supplement private school tuition, parochial school tuition, tutoring, special needs services or for other educational purposes.

Shaka Mitchell is a Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, an advocacy organization in the school choice movement. He has served in leadership roles at high-performing charter school networks, including Rocketship Education and LEAD Public schools in Nashville.

Jaime Puente is the Director of Economic Opportunity at Every Texan, an advocacy and public policy organization striving to expand opportunities for all Texans. He currently oversees their work on education. Previously, Jaime served as Legislative Director for members of the Texas House of Representatives.

This episode is moderated by The Disagreement’s co-host and co-founder Catherine Cushenberry.

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Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/