The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast

Seventeen years ago, four strangers decided to build something almost no one commits to: a mastermind group that outlasts the businesses, marriages, and identities its members walk in with. In Part 2, Dwayne sits back down with three of the four, Curt Cronin, Michael Grandjean, and Sam Hazledine (missing Keiron McCammon)to unpack what actually kept the group alive that long, and what it cost them to get there.

In this episode:

• Why Curt distinguishes a mentor ("shape me in their likeness"), a coach ("hold a container and ask me questions"), and a consultant ("give me the answer") as three completely different relationships and why conflating them causes friction
• Sam's case for why "in business, generally speaking, the coaches are not the ones who are successful at business" and what that selection bias means for anyone hiring one
• Curt's math on the actual hours he has left with his teenage daughter based on their current visiting cadence, and how that number changed how he shows up for her
• Why Sam believes selection, who's in the room, matters more than structure, using the analogy that "date night doesn't work if you're married to the wrong person"
• The origin story: how Curt, Michael, and Sam actually formed the group after meeting through Tony Robbins' Platinum Partners program, and why Tony himself turned down an invite to join
• Michael's take on the single biggest shift that took the group from well-meaning to effective: bringing in real structure and prep

Episode Timestamps:

00:00 Mentorship Mindset

00:35 Podcast Intro

01:38 Creating Your Reality

04:21 Beyond Tactics to Mindset

07:14 Accountability and Growth

10:03 Aligned Vision Matters

15:21 Belief and Creation

21:27 Finding Great Mentors

25:12 Mentor vs Coach

28:52 Coaching Limits in Business

30:51 Curiosity Over Assumptions

34:12 Resetting Miscommunication

36:29 Courageous Conversations at Work

38:51 Building Trust With Windshield Time

39:58 Starting a Mastermind Group

41:22 Structure Prep and Standards

43:36 Finding the Right People

47:00 Origin Story and Commitment

51:50 Speaking to the Fifth Person

52:54 Parting Shots and Farewell

59:50 Podcast Outro and Disclaimer

LINKS TO PREVIOUS EPISODES:

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/2-from-navy-seal-to-entrepreneur-the-transformative-journey-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/24-part-1-curiosity-change-embracing-growth-and-discovery-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/25-part-2-unlocking-potential-from-beyond-the-comfort-zone-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/5-beyond-achievement-unlocking-fulfillment-with-dr-sam-hazledine/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/121-collapse-courage-and-comeback-with-michael-grandjean/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/122-forgiving-yourself-and-rebuilding-after-failure-with-michael-grandjean/

Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for more conversations like this one, and catch Part 1 of this mastermind episode if you haven't yet.

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

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Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Seventeen years, six men, and one rule: no advice allowed. On this panel, three members of Dwayne Kerrigan's mastermind group, the "Honey Badgers", pull back the curtain on the framework that's carried them through startups, exits, burnout, and grief, and explain why the group that changes them most is the one that refuses to tell them what to do.

In this episode:

• Curt Cronin breaks down "dynamic subordination," the Navy SEAL handoff principle the group uses to know who leads and who steps back in a crisis
• Sam Hazledine explains why "nature abhors a vacuum" is the real reason humans default to giving advice, and why it usually backfires
• Michael Grandjean opens up about losing everything and the one thing that got him through it: learning to forgive himself
• Dwayne and the group unpack the "event, meaning, emotion, behavior, result" chain and how the stories we attach to events quietly run our lives
• Sam introduces the idea of becoming a "mindful steward" instead of a "benevolent dictator" as a business scales
• The group previews Dwayne's upcoming Founders Council program, built on the same gestalt-style mentorship model

About the guests: Curt Cronin is a former U.S. Navy SEAL turned entrepreneur and a founding member of the Honey Badgers mastermind group. Michael Grandjean spent 30 years in construction for the Department of Defense and the U.S. government before rebuilding his career after a period of significant personal and financial loss. Sam Hazledine is a physician based in New Zealand and founder of a medical staffing, technology, and research business. All three have been meeting with Dwayne Kerrigan as part of the same mastermind group for 17 years.

Episode Timestamps:

00:00 Brotherhood Origins

01:10 Meet The Honey Badgers

02:06 Sam Hazledine Introduction

03:19 Mike Grandjean and Curt Cronin Introductions

05:04 How the Mastermind Group Formed

07:07 Why the Group Works

10:06 Beyond Advice Gestalt Feedback

16:05 Trust and Safe Space

20:07 Dynamic Subordination Explained

23:21 Scaling Leadership Mindful Steward

28:53 Enough More and Seasons

31:41 Stuck In The Middle

32:16 Paying The Price

33:34 Forgive Yourself

35:14 Pain Versus Suffering

38:25 Blind Spots And Truth

42:26 Power Of Story

49:38 Intimacy And Proximity

54:31 Mastermind Framework

58:31 Proximity Is Power

01:02:57 Closing And Next Week

Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for Part 2 of this conversation, and find Curt Cronin, Michael Grandjean, and Sam Hazledine's own episodes in the show's back catalog.

Links to Previous Episodes:

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/2-from-navy-seal-to-entrepreneur-the-transformative-journey-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/24-part-1-curiosity-change-embracing-growth-and-discovery-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/25-part-2-unlocking-potential-from-beyond-the-comfort-zone-with-curt-cronin/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/5-beyond-achievement-unlocking-fulfillment-with-dr-sam-hazledine/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/121-collapse-courage-and-comeback-with-michael-grandjean/

https://www.dwaynekerrigan.com/122-forgiving-yourself-and-rebuilding-after-failure-with-michael-grandjean/

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan:

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

FlyGuys CEO Joe Stough returns for Part 2 of this conversation on scaling technology companies through operational excellence, culture, and AI.

Joe breaks down the four-element operational excellence management system he built plus the cultural foundation of the golden rule and iron sharpens iron and explains how the company's AI data infrastructure platform now serves seven industries through one configurable pipeline.

If you're building a company that needs to scale past its current ceiling, this episode is a playbook.

In this episode:

• Joe walks through FlyGuys' four-element Operational Excellence Management System (OEMS) — leadership, individual development, incident learning, and continuous improvement — built on a fifth "element zero": culture.
• He unpacks FlyGuys' five cultural principles: the golden rule, iron sharpens iron, goal zero, raving fans, and one for all and all for one.
• Joe details the Waitr acquisition that used almost all of the company's post-SPAC cash within two weeks of going public — a transaction later written down by $190 million.
• He explains how FlyGuys' AI data infrastructure platform now serves seven verticals (construction, solar, asset management, agriculture, public safety, insurance, and telecom) through one configurable pipeline.
• Joe shares his networking philosophy — prioritizing "vision alignment" over job titles, including the mid-level ExxonMobil manager who opened the door to a multi-year enterprise contract.
• He gives direct advice for business owners bringing AI into their operations: don't skip the architecture expertise, and pair AI orchestration with real industry knowledge.

Episode Time Stamps:

00:00 Iron Sharpens Iron Culture

00:28 Podcast Intro and Recap

01:29 Scaling Lessons and AI Risks

03:21 Pricing and Org Costs Trap

06:47 Operational Excellence Foundation

10:15 Mapping the Process Day One

13:33 Defects and Incident Learning

15:12 Customer Journey Method

18:53 Culture Principles Element Zero

24:55 OEMS Elements Breakdown

28:20 How It Became Intentional

30:43 Can OE Reduce Failures

32:46 Waitr Acquisition Mistake

37:16 Waitr Deal Fallout

38:56 Mentor Sam Smolik

41:17 Networking Beyond Titles

44:05 Vision Alignment Story

47:43 Risk and Diversification

53:22 Platform for Complexity

57:20 Vertical Workflow Examples

01:04:56 Agentic AI and Scaling

01:12:48 Final Scaling Playbook

01:18:32 Closing and Where to Find

Resources Mentioned:

Interpersonal Technology: The Art and Science of Personal and Professional Effectiveness by James A. Gwaltney (Author)

https://a.co/d/06TD2z2R

The Power of Goal ZERO: A Practical Leadership Guide for Achieving Superior Performance by Sam Smolik (Author)

https://a.co/d/06CjUZI2

The Daily Pursuit of Excellence: The 4 Keys to Achieving Superior Performance by Sam Smolik (Author)

https://a.co/d/03YXAfrQ

About Joe Stough: Joe Stough is CEO of FlyGuys, an AI data infrastructure platform serving industries including construction, solar, agriculture, insurance, and public safety. He previously served as President and COO of Waitr, and earlier built Impact, an operational excellence and safety management software adopted by ExxonMobil, Chevron, Total, and Koch Industries. Stough sits on the board of directors of Ducks Unlimited alongside his mentor Sam Smolik, author of Daily Pursuit of Excellence and Goal Zero, whose influence shaped FlyGuys' operational excellence system.

Connect with Joe Stough:

https://flyguys.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-stough/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/flyguys.io/

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Joe Stough built a piece of software that ExxonMobil, Shell, and ConocoPhillips ran their worldwide safety operations on and he says none of it would have worked without a psychological framework he almost let disappear along with the mentor who created it. In this episode, he traces the throughline of intentional culture across three very different companies.

In this episode:

• How Joe's early experience running Dynamic Systems International shaped the fundamentals he built his next company, Syntex, on — starting with hiring a lawyer on day one
• The Interpersonal Technology framework — eight personality styles built on Carl Jung's archetypes — that Joe credits for turning daily blowups with his first CFO into a working partnership
• How Joe's Impact software went from one language in one country to twenty-four languages in a hundred and eighty countries in a single year, landing ConocoPhillips, ExxonMobil, and Shell as worldwide clients within six months
• Selling Syntex to IHS in 2010 in an all-cash deal — and being pulled back to the office six months into "retirement"
• Why Joe took over teaching the Interpersonal Technology program himself after his mentor, Dr. James Gwaltney, passed away in 2016
• How FlyGuys runs an "Uberized" marketplace of over 22,000 drone pilots delivering data instead of rides or food

Time Stamps:

00:00 Intentional Culture Mindset

00:40 Podcast Welcome and Guest Intro

04:58 FlyGuys Business Model Explained

09:00 From Syntex to Waitr to FlyGuys

14:40 Early Failure Lessons Learned

20:09 Finding Mentors and First Investor

25:22 Interpersonal Technology Origin Story

31:25 Eight Personality Styles Overview

35:36 Thinking vs Feeling

36:17 Choicing and Dreaming Spectrum

37:12 Organizer vs Presenter Styles

38:06 Building Teams and Culture

39:38 Hiring for Strength Balance

40:50 Mentor Legacy and IP Story

48:47 Culture as Career Thread

52:35 Syntex Sale and Return

54:23 Global Data and Safety Index

01:00:20 Waitr Origin and Hypergrowth

01:04:53 Scaling Lessons and Replatforming

01:06:56 Wrap Up and Next Episode

About Joe Stough: Joe Stough is CEO of FlyGuys: a drone data collection company operating an Uberized marketplace with more than 22,000 pilots across the U.S. He founded Syntex in 1995, building the Impact software platform into what became a dominant operational excellence system used by companies including ExxonMobil, Shell, and ConocoPhillips, before selling the company in 2010. He later served as President and COO of Waitr, taking the food delivery company public on Nasdaq via SPAC in 2018. Joe now holds the intellectual property rights to the Interpersonal Technology framework and personally teaches it to leadership teams; he has been featured in Forbes, Fortune, and Entrepreneur Magazine, and sits on the board of Ducks Unlimited.

Connect: Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for Part 2 of this conversation, and connect with Joe Stough and FlyGuys to learn more about the Interpersonal Technology program.

Connect with Joe Stough:

https://flyguys.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-stough/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/flyguys.io/

Resources Mentioned:

Interpersonal Technology: The Art and Science of Personal and Professional Effectiveness by James A. Gwaltney (Author)

https://a.co/d/06TD2z2R

The Power of Goal ZERO: A Practical Leadership Guide for Achieving Superior Performance by Sam Smolik (Author)

https://a.co/d/06CjUZI2

The Daily Pursuit of Excellence: The 4 Keys to Achieving Superior Performance by Sam Smolik (Author)

https://a.co/d/03YXAfrQ

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

At 500 knots each, two F-16s point straight at each other with less than a second to react, one of them upside down. That's the moment Michelle "Mace" Curran walks Dwayne through in Part 2 of this conversation, and it's just the entry point into a masterclass on what she calls "the space between": the pause between feeling fear and deciding what to do with it.

In this episode:

• The near head-on collision during a Thunderbirds training pass, closing at roughly 1,000 mph, missing by what she believes was inches and the split-second decision-making that got both pilots through it
• Why Michelle earned her call sign "Mace" (Mach at Circle Entry) by accidentally breaking the sound barrier on her second flight in Japan, and how she turned it into a badge of honor
• The physical disruptor, wiggling her toes, that a flight instructor taught her to break out of over-control and hypervigilance, and the neuroscience behind why it works
• Why the Thunderbirds' hiring process (40 applicants, 3 spots, a 12-officer interview panel) weighs personality, composure, and preparation over raw technical skill
• Her "bubble" routine in her third year with the Thunderbirds, strict self-care boundaries that helped her show up better in a public-facing role
• Why she sees fear as a signal, not a stop sign, and how that reframe applies as much to a hard business call as it does to flying a fighter jet

Time Stamps:

00:00 Competence Over Noise

00:33 Welcome Michelle “Mace” Curran

01:32 Imposter Syndrome Pivot

02:53 Bravery And Fear Reframed

07:20 The Space Between

12:03 Near Miss Decision Making

14:54 Physical Disruptors Tool

21:56 Fear Signals In The Body

23:29 High Performance Discipline

29:01 Hiring For Team Traits

33:39 Thunderbirds Selection Process

36:20 Prep Under Pressure

37:13 Working Interview Signals

38:32 Downtime Reveals Drive

39:31 Bias and Perception Checks

41:15 Women in Fighter Aviation

47:13 Media Noise and Unity

50:58 Leading for Bigger Impact

54:56 Self Care for Performance

59:06 Where to Find Michelle

01:00:09 Call Sign and Failure Lessons

01:04:19 Final Thanks

Michelle "Mace" Curran is a former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot who flew as a Thunderbirds lead solo and trained the incoming opposing solo pilot during her tenure on the team. Over a 13-year military career she flew combat missions and instrument approaches in extreme conditions, including a station in Misawa, Japan. She is now a keynote speaker and author of the children's book Upside Down Dreams and its sequel centered on fighter pilot call signs, and has written a book exploring fear and decision-making under pressure. She also runs corporate workshops and speaks widely on high performance, fear, and leadership.

Connect with Michelle

Website: https://macecurran.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mace_curran

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macecurran/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/macecurran/

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

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Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

She's the second woman in history to fly lead solo for the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds and she still describes her early years in a fighter squadron as "classic imposter syndrome." Michelle "Mace" Curran spent years running from failure before she realized what was actually driving her forward, and in this conversation with Dwayne Kerrigan, she pulls back the curtain on the debrief culture that rebuilt her confidence — and the messy, control-freak transition from single-seat cockpit to solo entrepreneur.

In this episode:

• How a moment in the bookstore at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum led, four years later, to Michelle's children's book What's Your Call Sign?
• Why Michelle calls her first Air Force assignment "classic imposter syndrome" — and how she learned to tell the difference between being pulled toward a goal and running from failure
• Inside the Air Force flight debrief: how "root cause" and a single "lesson learned" sentence turn every flight — successful or not — into a team-wide teaching moment
• What changed when Michelle transferred to a reserve squadron in Texas right after it had debriefed a near-catastrophic mishap
• Why leaving the military for entrepreneurship exposed her as, in her words, "a control freak," and what she's doing to build a real team instead of running her business like a one-person cockpit
• How hitting the USA Today bestseller list with her book The Flip Side actually coincided with a dip in speaking bookings — and the lesson she took from it

Time Stamps:

00:00 Imposter Syndrome

00:24 Welcome

00:55 Meet Michelle “Mace” Curran

02:39 Why Kids Books

05:24 From Wisconsin To Jets

06:53 Advice For Parents

09:10 Pull Versus Push

14:48 Japan Pressure Cooker

18:39 Reputation And Legacy

21:25 Finding Your Team Role

23:35 Learning From Mishaps

26:32 Fighter Pilot Debriefs

31:32 Debrief Cadence Matters

32:40 Feedback Without Fear

34:36 Stacking the Odds

36:17 Solo Entrepreneur Shock

39:17 Delegation and Control

43:56 Trust Systems Not People

48:45 Building SOPs and CRM

52:17 Book Launch Reality Check

56:30 Entrepreneurship Fear and Freedom

58:49 Closing and Listener Takeaways

Michelle "Mace" Curran is a former U.S. Air Force F-16 fighter who flew as the fifth woman and second woman ever to fly lead solo with the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds. She left active duty in 2022 after 13 years of service and founded Upside Down Dreams, a speaking, training, and education company. She is the author of three books, including the national bestseller The Flip Side, along with two children's books, Upside Down Dreams and What's Your Call Sign?

Resources mentioned:

• The Flip Side (book)
• Upside Down Dreams (children's book)
• What's Your Call Sign? (children's book)

Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for Part 2 of this conversation, and find more from Michelle "Mace" Curran.

Connect with Michelle

Website: https://macecurran.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mace_curran

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macecurran/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/macecurran/

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

On this episode, Dwayne sits down with Keiron McCammon, host of Spark of Trust podcast, to unpack why that show exists in the first place. It starts with a wrong answer: Keiron went looking for what broke in 2022, blamed social media, and found something underneath it. Trust didn't collapse all at once, it broke in three acts over six decades: first our communities, then our institutions, then our information environment, each one stacking on the last, so no single fix, founder, or organization can repair it alone. Over the next hour and a half, Dwayne and Keiron dig into that unraveling, and why the honest response isn't a solution, it's a signal.

Time Stamps:

00:00 Welcome Keiron McCammon - Spark of Trust Podcast

01:36 Why Trust Matters

02:57 Tech Optimism to Disillusion

05:06 From Misinformation to Trust

06:14 Three Acts of Trust

09:54 Spark of Trust Mission

13:47 Community Pillar Questions

17:04 Neya

24:08 Institutions and Business Trust

30:27 Why Small Business Wins

34:20 Earning Trust Locally

35:19 Reimagining Broken Institutions

37:48 Community Care Lost

41:13 New Models in Healthcare

42:51 Building Trustworthy News

45:11 Tech Accelerates Misinformation

48:08 Internet of Humans

51:12 Trustworthy AI and Fiduciary Duty

57:26 Agents Bots and Identity

01:02:07 Optimism and Network Building

01:04:48 Podcast as Information Network

01:08:28 Dream Guests and Mission

01:09:32 From Listeners to Action

01:12:32 Building Trust Communities

01:18:36 Capital and Trust Tech

01:20:20 Mission-Proof Business Models

01:26:20 Honesty Builds Trust

01:28:02 Character and Consumer Power

01:31:53 Closing Reflections

If this conversation named something you've been feeling, share it with someone who needs it. And follow the show wherever you listen. It helps the right people find it.

Connect with Spark of Trust

https://sparkoftrust.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@SparkofTrust

https://www.linkedin.com/company/sparkoftrust

https://www.instagram.com/sparkoftrust/

https://www.facebook.com/sparkoftrust

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/spark-of-trust/id6807994008

https://open.spotify.com/show/3XYhVqgSkTCGMpUYiRZDAQ?si=befe38707d834864

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Canada's top female entrepreneur two years running, flying between magazine covers and global stages and privately rocking on the floor with the door locked. Kelsey Kitsch, former CEO of Mind Cure and author of Success Hangover, sits down with Dwayne to unpack the ego that built her empire, the psychedelic experience that dismantled it, and what she found once the striving finally stopped.

Content Warning: This episode discusses psychedelics from personal experience. Dwayne and Kelsey explicitly state they are not promoting psychedelics. If you choose to explore this topic, please do thorough research, consult a medical professional, and ensure proper facilitation and integration support.This content is for informational purposes only.

This episode also touches on mental health and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 — the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline — available 24/7 in both the US and Canada.

In this episode:

• The three conditions Kelsey uses to unlock curiosity and better ideas, novelty, motion, and high emotion, drawn from researcher Mary Helen Immordino-Yang's work
• Why Kelsey builds weekly goals instead of long-term SMART goals, and how her brother Trent Kitch's annual "goal card" shaped that thinking
• The battle between her "ego self" and "soul self" that played out over four hours in her first guided psychedelic experience and what was waiting on the other side
• A breakdown of psychedelic experience levels, from psilocybin and MDMA to ayahuasca, San Pedro, mescaline, and 5-MeO-DMT, and what "set, setting, and sacrament" actually mean
• Why Dwayne points listeners toward Dr. Dispenza's breathwork program as a non-psychedelic starting point, and the Othership app Kelsey uses
• The reframe that closes the episode: "We can only feel loved in proportion to how much we're seen, and we can only be seen in proportion to how much we show people of ourselves."

Time Stamps:

00:00 Psychedelic Safety Disclaimer

00:42 Mett Kelsey Kitsch

03:30 Reinvention in a Changing World

05:13 Curiosity as a Career Compass

08:23 Play Framework for Creativity

16:34 Pattern Interrupts and Choice

19:48 Expectations Goals and Targets

30:23 Funeral Mindset and Daily Meaning

33:44 Opening Up About Psychedelics

35:32 Hustle Identity

36:31 Success Yet Empty

37:54 First Guided Journey

38:52 Sufficiency After Silence

41:15 Safety And Legality

42:22 Psychedelic Levels

44:44 Set Setting Integration

48:29 Breathwork Alternative

51:20 Beyond Woo Woo

59:39 Curiosity Over Protocol

01:03:10 Operating System Reset

01:04:58 Ego Versus Soul

01:10:04 Seen To Be Loved

01:13:01 Closing Remarks

About Kelsey Kitsch: Kelsey Kitsch is a Canadian entrepreneur recognized as the country's top female entrepreneur two years in a row and named to Canadian Business' Top 25 Under 35 and the Dell Women's Entrepreneur Network's Top 200 Globally. She started in construction at 15 in her father's business, later becoming President of Belvedere Place Development before founding Spark Play. She is the author of Success Hangover, delivered the TED Talk "Play Is the New PhD," and previously served as CEO of Mind Cure, a psychedelic-focused mental health company. She is now the founder of Paramont Love, focused on intimacy intelligence.

Resources mentioned:

• Book: Success Hangover by Kelsey Kitsch
• TED Talk: "Play Is the New PhD" by Kelsey Kitsch

Connect with Kelsey Kitsch:

https://www.kelseykitsch.com/

Linked In

Connect: Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for a new episode each week, and follow Kelsey Kitsch's ongoing work in intimacy intelligence at Paramont Love

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

Instagram

Linked In

Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Kelsey Kitsch was Canada's number one female entrepreneur two years in a row. She was on the cover of magazines, speaking at global economic forums, and building multimillion-dollar companies. She was also sitting on the floor of her locked office, in the darkest period of her life, wondering why none of it felt like anything. In Part 1 of this conversation, she and Dwayne explore what happens when the life you built no longer fits — and what it takes to build a new one from the inside out.

In this episode:

• The three-factor brain state that produces your best ideas — novelty, motion, and high emotion — drawn from Mary Helen Imordino-Yang's research, and why Kelsey's most creative moments happen driving fast with the windows down in a place she doesn't know
• Why most people set goals wrong: Kelsey's case for short-term weekly goals anchored to a long-term direction, and why the deeper question isn't "what do I want to achieve?" but "who do I want to be when I get there?"
• Kelsey's experience with guided psychedelic therapy — the four-hour ego vs. soul battle she audio-taped during her first journey, and what it felt like to experience sufficiency for the first time: just being, without striving or driving or winning
• Why woo-woo is a category problem, not an evidence problem — and how Kelsey frames breathwork and psychedelics the same way: repeatable patterns that produce consistent results, regardless of whether the mechanism is fully explained yet
• The Othership breathwork app and Dr. Joe Dispenza's Marco Island program as non-invasive entry points for anyone curious about expanded states but not ready for psychedelics
• The single most important insight Kelsey has learned about love and being human: we can only feel loved in proportion to how much we're seen, and we can only be seen in proportion to how much we show of ourselves.

Content Warning: This episode discusses psychedelics from personal experience. Dwayne and Kelsey explicitly state they are not promoting psychedelics. If you choose to explore this topic, please do thorough research, consult a medical professional, and ensure proper facilitation and integration support.This content is for informational purposes only.

This episode also touches on mental health and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 — the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline — available 24/7 in both the US and Canada.

Episode Highlights (audio):

00:00 - Psychedelic Safety Disclaimer

00:42 - Podcast Intro

01:13 - Meet Kelsey Kitsch

03:28 - Reinvention in a Changing World

05:13 - Staying Curious to Pivot

08:23 - Creativity Formula - Three Factors

16:34 - Pattern Interrupts and Choice

19:48 - Expectations Goals and the Golf Metaphor

25:16 - Identity Driven Targets and Daily Intentions

30:23 - Mortality Mindset and Showing Up Fully

33:43 - Opening the Psychedelics Conversation

34:32 - Driven to Deliver

36:31 - Success Yet In Crisis

37:54 - First Guided Journey

38:52 - Quiet Mind Breakthrough

41:15 - Safety and Legality

42:22 - Psychedelic Levels 101

44:44 - Set Setting Integration

48:29 - Breathwork Alternative

51:20 - Debunking Woo Woo

57:15 - Curiosity Beyond Protocols and Unknowns

01:04:58 - Ego vs Soul Battle

01:10:04 - Seen Known Loved

01:13:01 - Closing and Disclaimers

Resources mentioned:

• Success Hangover — Kelsey Kitsch’s book
• TED Talk: Play Is the New PhD — Kelsey Kitsch
• MINDCURE — psychedelic drug research company Kelsey co-founded

Overcoming Adversity: A Journey to Self-Alignment and Impactful Entrepreneurship with Sophia Plank

Part 2: Finding Balance: The Intersection of Self-Reflection and Business Growth with Sophia Plank

About Kelsey Kitsch:

Kelsey Kitsch is a Canadian entrepreneur, author, and founder who was twice named Canada's top female entrepreneur by PROFIT and Chatelaine. She built and led multiple multimillion-dollar companies including Belvedere Place Development, co-founded MINDCURE (a psychedelic drug research company), and is now the founder of Paramount Love (https://paramountlove.com/), focused on intimacy intelligence. She is the author of Success Hangover (published as Kelsey Ramsden) and has given a TED Talk titled Play Is the New PhD.

Connect with Kelsey Kitsch:

https://www.kelseykitsch.com/

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Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Kate Bradley Chernis spent over a decade figuring out how to use sound to make strangers feel like friends. At Sirius/XM, she was building 200-layer audio files for 30-second commercials. Next, she was infusing radio theory into a generative AI platform before most people knew what generative AI was. Now at Backline EQ, she's using the same instinct, that sound tells you things a transcript never could, to engineer human connection at scale. This conversation covers all of it: the neuroscience, the pivots, and the parts of the journey she rarely shares out loud.

In this episode:

• The theater of the mind and why it's the foundation of trust: when your brain constructs the story rather than receiving it passively, it taps into nostalgia, memory, and emotion — the three keystones of why we buy, connect, and believe
• Why your eyes lie but your ears don't — Kate's case that sound is the most honest and hardest-to-trick human sense, and what that means for AI tools that rely entirely on transcripts
• The "rules of radio" Kate embedded into Lately's AI — word choices like "remember" versus "don't forget" that trigger different emotional responses, drawn from her training in the neuroscience of music and parasocial connection
• How Backline EQ outperformed the Microsoft/IBM/Google industry-standard language model (MFCC) by 70% in measuring team fit — using voice patterns alone, without transcription
• Kate's vulnerable disclosure about a difficult period in her life after eleven years building a company and how her mother's reminder that she was a prodigy at six became the unexpected anchor that helped her begin again
• The investor who finally told her to stop inventing something new and just make existing technology better and how that single pivot made everything easier for the first time in over a decade

Content Warning: This episode includes a brief discussion of suicidal ideation. The conversation is handled with care and context, but we want our listeners to be prepared.

If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 — the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline — available 24/7 in both the US and Canada.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 - Podcast Welcome and Content Warning

00:17 - Sound Design Obsession

01:20 - Meet Kate Bradley Chernis

03:32 - Kinder Egg Smuggling Story

04:13 - From Radio to AI

05:56 - Theater of the Mind

10:23 - Why Sound Builds Trust

12:36 - Building Lately Secret Sauce

15:23 - Voice Control and Trust

21:18 - Staying Human in AI

28:58 - Leaving XM and Starting Up

34:27 - Early Genius, Confidence and Reinvention

36:26 - Self Love and Authenticity

38:38 - Imposter Syndrome Scale

39:15 - Resume Exercise for Confidence

42:29 - Trusting Your Gut

44:10 - Loneliness and Standing Up

47:05 - Entrepreneurship Lessons

52:05 - Rebuilding The Village

56:19 - Backline EQ Pivot

01:01:37 - Patterns and the Bridge

01:06:49 - Collecting Data the Hard Way

01:09:56 - Sound As A Force

01:11:22 - Return on Collisions

01:13:20 - Saying No and Self Care

01:16:57 - Closing Thanks and Outro

Resources mentioned:

• This Is Your Brain on Music — Daniel Levitin
• The Art of the Start — Guy Kawasaki
• Backline EQ Live Conversations — Kate's audio salons, every other Thursday at 2:00 PM Eastern
• MFCC (Mel-frequency cepstral coefficients) — industry language model standard Kate's technology was benchmarked against

“Your eyes lie. They can lie to you, but sound doesn't.” - Kate Bradley Chernis

“Often people will focus so much on their life condition rather than, "No, I'm here for a reason. I just need to maybe alter the blueprint." That doesn't mean lower your expectations, it just may mean shift your standards. Shift the way you're gonna get there, timeline, trajectory.” - Dwayne Kerrigan

“You have to start measuring. You have to start collecting data.” - Kate Bradley Chernis

“I can make people I can't see feel like they belong. It's more than that. I can make you feel like with a conversation that is either as powerful or more powerful than if we were eye to eye in real life. That's how transcendent sound is. There's a magic there that is, well, it's magical. It's fantastical.” - Kate Bradley Chernis

“Entrepreneurship's f***ing hard. This is a gladiator sport. And there is no substitute for the constant and never-ending courage that you need to have inside this, this arena.” - Dwayne Kerrigan

About Kate Bradley Chernis:

Kate Bradley Chernis is an early Generative AI visionary who co-founded the first closed-data, proprietary machine learning and natural language processing platform in 2014. She is the co-founder and CEO of the Backline Network, which uses curated audio-only salons to capture real-time conversational dynamics and convert them into AI that predicts and engineers group chemistry at scale. Before her career in AI, Kate spent over a decade as a rock 'n' roll radio DJ, serving 20 million listeners daily as Music Director and on-air host at Sirius/XM. An early prototype of her technology delivered Walmart a 130% ROI year-over-year for three years.

Connect with Kate Bradley Chernis:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/katebradley

Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan

Facebook

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Website

Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.