The Fourth Curtain

Founder and CEO of Young Horses Phil Tibitoski joined us to explain how you can succeed without greenlights! Their student project Octodad went on to IGF fame and solid sales, followed by the charming Bug Snax. We talk knowing when to ship and the art of fumblecore - this week! 

TIMESTAMPS

[0:08:27] Intro: Phillip Tibitoski / Phil Tibbs

[0:10:29] The Secret to 15 Years: Self-Publishing, Weird Ideas & Happy Teams
Alex asks Phil the core question: how do you sustain an indie studio for 15 years? Phil credits avoiding traditional publishers, staying creatively strange, and actively asking each team member what skill they want to grow with every new project.

[0:22:28] The Glorious Nine: Forming the Studio and Betting on Yourselves
Phil recounts the basement-of-a-hostel meeting at GDC 2011 where the original 18-person student team voted on who would go all-in on making Young Horses a real company. 

[0:24:19] How Phil Became CEO (And Why He Keeps Getting Re-Elected)
Alex asks how Phil ended up running the studio. Phil reveals that Young Horses votes on officers at an annual meeting, that he landed in the role partly because no one else wanted it, then discovered a genuine love for the business and marketing side.

[0:25:59] Learning to Run a Studio: The Kindness of Other Developers
Phil describes how he learned everything — profit sharing, platform deals, dev kits, legal structures — by relentlessly asking other indie developers who had done it before, including the team at Gaijin Games (now Choice Provisions), who invited them to a studio party and shared their war stories.

[0:39:24] Octodad to Bugsnax: Six Years, a PS5 Launch, and the Sophomore Slump
Phil unpacks the six-year journey from Octodad: Dadliest Catch to Bugsnax — including the fear of the sophomore slump, spending 3 years figuring out how the game actually played, and the strategic decision to align launch with the Playstation 5 release.

[0:59:43] Advice for the Next Generation: Context Is Everything, Luck Finds the Prepared
Alex asks how Phil would think about starting a studio in today's landscape. Phil cautions students not to copy Young Horses' exact playbook (it wouldn't work now) and instead advocates for reading your unique context, diversifying interests beyond games, and positioning yourself so that luck can find you.

[0:09:08] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest was chief creative officer at Blizzard and helped drive some of the biggest videogames ever, like StarCraft and World of Warcraft. Now CEO of Bonfire Studios, he's making a new title, Arkheron. We discuss smurfing, game seeds and cracking the art style - this week!

TIMESTAMPS:

[0:04:58] Intro: Rob Pardo

[0:09:07] From Retail to Roller Hockey: How Rob Got Into Blizzard
Rob traces his path from managing a Software Etc. store and game testing at Interplay to first meeting the Blizzard team playing roller hockey; talking about what skills put him on Blizzard's radar.

[0:13:14] First Job at Interplay: Starting as a Game Tester
Rob explains how what got him into Interplay's QA department, how he quickly rose to assistant line producer, and how his early love of arcades, D&D, and computer games made him pursue jobs where he actually wanted to be.

[0:26:28] The Warcraft II Bet That Got Rob Noticed
CEO Brian Fargo bet on Rob in a best-of-three Warcraft II match against Interplay's best player. Rob breaks down his strategic thinking round by round — grunt rush, map selection, navy maps — and how winning that match, plus his other experience, built his early reputation at Blizzard.

[0:31:29] Finding His Footing: Designing StarCraft From QA
Rob describes how he slowly built credibility through sharp balance feedback, writing the first build orders that were turned directly into scripts, and designing multiplayer maps like Lost Temple — all before the design role even officially existed.

[0:58:35] Building World of Warcraft: The Early Vision and Art Style Breakthrough
The hosts ask how WoW got started and Rob explains the team restructuring after Warcraft III, the vision for a seamless open world, worldbuilding on a whiteboard, and the accidental art style breakthrough that made everything click.

[1:11:52] The Blizzard Design Values: Easy to Learn, Impossible to Master
Alex asks Rob to share the top Blizzard design rules he developed and codified. Rob walks through several, including the story behind the WoW rest system, which he reframed after feedback from the community.

[1:17:08] Starting Over: What It's Like to Build Bonfire Studios from Scratch
Alex asks what it felt like to leave the top of the industry and start fresh. Rob reflects on watching Blizzard's teams slow down as they grew, why smaller focused teams produce better work, and his conviction that putting the team first is the only sustainable path to great games.

[1:29:31] How Bonfire Chose Its Game: The Game Seed Process
Rob details the structured creative process Bonfire used to select their game: “game seed” pitches, Post-it Note voting, 2-3 week concept sprints, and 1 question that produced a near-unanimous answer and became Archon.

[1:42:12] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

If your hilarious party game is laced with snark you know the work of this week's guest, Jackbox CEO Mike Bilder. One of the legion of the Midway diaspora, he saw the transition from coin-op to console. We discuss drive vs crunch, streaming platforms, and the human touch - this week!

TIMESTAMPS

[0:04:38] Intro: Mike Bilder

[0:06:25] From Learn Television to Jackbox: The Full Company History
Mike explains Jackbox’s origin story; he traces it from Jellyvision to You Don't Know Jack to Jackbox Games.

[0:10:10] AI, Writers, and the Jackbox Principles: What Makes Jackbox Uniquely Human
Mike explains their commitment to human-written comedy and game writers in a world of AI.

[0:15:19] Early Career: From Motorola to Midway
Hosts ask about Mike's first jobs; he shares his CS background, persistence breaking into game development, and meeting his wife on a Motorola work trip.

[0:32:02] Nine Years at Midway: Coin-Op, NFL Blitz, and the Politics of an NFL License
Mike covers what it was like at Midway, the culture, a forced pivot, and ultimately losing the NFL license.

[0:45:00] The Art of the Pivot: How Jackbox Thinks About Innovation and What's Next
Mike discusses the pattern of reinvention across Midway and Jackbox, staying fresh with party packs, and third-party publishing.

[0:51:02] Platforms, Netflix, and the Race to Be Everywhere: Jackbox's Distribution Strategy
Mike explains the licensing model, the platform expansion, streaming ambitions, and the Twitch audience mode origin story.

[1:04:52] Mike's Superpower: From Engineer to Producer to CEO
Alex asks Mike to name his superpower; Mike reflects on problem-solving, leading from passion, and 18 years of bringing joy through party games.

[0:06:58] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We have an insight-packed and hopeful discussion with Owen Mahoney, CEO of Maplestory's Nexon. This Choplifter fan went on to acquire JAMDAT and DICE for EA, then saw the future with Embark. We discuss forever games, where stories come from and the huge growth coming - this week!

TIMESTAMPS

[0:00:00] Intro: Owen Mahoney

[0:10:22] Medium shifts favor beginners
Owen explains why every major technology shift benefits newcomers.

[0:19:33] An “unusual background”
Owen describes his and Nexon’s “unusual backgrounds,” and how they got started. 

[0:33:23] Most pitches are a product problem, not a marketing problem
"90% of the deals that I looked at to build a game... look very similar to something that was already out there in the market. So a lot of what people are calling a marketing problem are in fact a product problem."

[0:42:37] Tried to buy Nexon three times at EA
Owen reveals he tried to acquire Nexon three times while at EA, and eventually ended up joining them as CFO instead — including nearly landing Riot Games before being outbid by Tencent.

[0:48:23] The "forever franchise" thesis behind Embark
Owen explains the concept of "forever franchises" — games that don't have to peak and decline — and how that philosophy was central to their success and investments.

[0:52:55] The industry inverts good game development
Owen argues that big-budget game development is built backwards: studios front-load expensive art to get green-lights, while leaving the actual "find the fun" iteration — the most important part — until the end.

[1:04:11] New technology always creates new kinds of game makers
Owen's closing argument on the industry's future: 
"Every generation comes with its new set of innovators."

[1:08:40] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We're hyped to talk secrets with Billy Basso, creator of the award-winning smash Animal Well. Beginning with educational and medical games he went on to solo develop Animal Well, which delivers a huge game in less than 40 MB. Surgery, celebrity and an ARG - this week!

TIMESTAMPS

[0:00:00] Intro: Billy Basso
An introduction to Billy Basso, developer of Animal Well.

[0:07:54] Choosing film school over game dev
Billy reveals he went to film school because he "deep down wanted to make video games" but didn't think it was a viable career path — setting up the arc of his whole story.

[0:12:28] Checking out the entire company repo: Billy’s first game job
On his first day at Phosphor Games, Billy accidentally locked every art asset the company had ever made by checking out the entire source control depot

[0:15:30] How making games for doctors shaped his design philosophy
Billy reflects that working on educational games deeply informed how he thinks about game design: what has the player learned, and are you testing them along the way?

[0:21:17] Mobile games felt like casino design
After years making monetization-heavy mobile games, Billy describes realizing he was building "a casino game, not a video game,” which became his motivation to make Animal Well.

[0:34:57] Animal Well started as a side project at Level X
Billy reveals he was already prototyping Animal Well during his Level X job interview, getting up a few hours early every morning for years to chip away at it before going to work.

[0:45:43] Tunic raised the bar and stressed him out
When Tunic launched while he was mid-development, Billy saw major parallels to what he was building. While it was inspiring, it was also intimidating.

[0:51:21] Cold-emailing Dan Adelman changed everything
After watching a documentary about Axiom Verge, Billy sent a cold email to industry veteran Dan Adelman (one of the only times in his life he's done that), which became the turning point for getting Animal Well to market.

[1:06:25] Dunkey's announcement brought 100K wishlists in a day
When Dunkey announced Animal Well as Bigmode's first game, it generated 100,000 Steam wishlists in a single day — after Billy had spent years slowly building to 25,000.

[1:16:27] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We kick off Season 4 with Patrick Söderlund, CEO/founder of Embark Studios and maker of the hit Arc Raiders. Former head of DICE and Battlefield at EA, he found faster ways to build. We discuss owing the community, AI, and incredible value - this week! 

[00:00:00] Intro: Patrick Söderlund

[00:13:23] The recipe for games people want to play
Patrick explains that the core motivation isn't money, it's finding the recipe that makes people want to come back. He'd go stand in midnight launch lines just to feel what players felt.

[00:18:25] 12 years at EA and why he left
Patrick describes staying longer than planned, and ultimately leaving because he missed being close to the creative and building process, not because of the company.

[00:21:22] What was missing: the building process
Patrick explains the inner dialogue of walking away from a senior exec role – he knew he'd drifted too far from creation and needed to get back to it.

[00:23:12] Battlefront II and its launch
Patrick talks about a game that deserved a better launch, while noting it's still beloved today and holds up visually.

[00:28:17] The 100X pipeline challenge at Embark
Rather than trying to make things 10X better (which just leads to patching old tools), Patrick challenged his team to think 100X faster — forcing them to throw out all assumptions and reinvent their content pipeline from scratch.

[00:39:19] Why Arc Raiders uses robots, not humanoids
A deliberate design decision and the production cycle in action: how robots let the team hide quirks and unexpected behavior, discovering players don't have preconceived notions of how a machine "should" move. This also drove deep investment in reinforcement learning for AI enemies.

[00:56:41] Patrick's measured take on AI in game development
He separates automating tedious tasks from replacing creative talent, acknowledges the sensitivity around AI voices, and argues the industry needs to understand the full ecosystem before passing harsh judgment.

[1:04:55] The Super Mario Bros. moment that started it all
At 12 or 13, renting an NES at a gas station and discovering Super Mario Bros. gave Patrick the same sense of limitless wonder he imagines kids feel playing GTA today — and he decided right then he had to make games.

[01:13:14] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our intrepid hosts provide a prologue to the fourth season of the podcast with a wide-ranging conversation on the state of the videogame industry. With appreciation for GDC, Resident Evil 9 and Phil Spencer, they also talk (of course) AI and signs we may finally be exiting the trough - this week!

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

For our end of year episode Aaron and Alex reflect on the year and a raft of topics in videogame dev: Steam Deck vs Switch, understanding how AI will work for dev, Netflix's place and "successful to nice" ratios! Devils and Dungeonauts within - this week!

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann

[00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMG
Christoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games

[00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the Future
Christoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead.

[00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative Powerhouse
He talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands.

[00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading Overnight
Christoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust.

[00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates Studios
He breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back.

[00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and Opportunity
Christoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs.

[00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service Futures
After a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding.

[01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks”
At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader.

[01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between Role
Christoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat.

[01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power Demand
Alex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA
Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private.

[00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought?
The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts.

[00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom
Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s.

[00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs
Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset.

[00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire
Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success.

[00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons
He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time.

[01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter
Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry.

[01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and Reinvention
Trip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505