The Fourth Curtain

Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher
Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from shipping games, not just dreaming them.

[00:08:00] From Farm Town to QA: Adam’s Unlikely Start at EA Sports
Hear how Adam landed his first job in games testing NBA Live 97 and FIFA 98, despite growing up in rural Canada with dreams of working on NHL games.

[00:15:00] Modding Roots and BBS Culture: The Birth of a Developer
Adam shares how his love for PC modding and running a Jurassic Park–themed BBS shaped his curiosity and multi-discipline approach to game development.

[00:27:00] The Wild Days at Midway: Slugfest, Blitz & Studio Chaos
From canceled games to f-bomb-filled meetings, Adam reflects on Midway’s raw, chaotic culture—and how it helped him grow as a producer and leader.

[00:34:00] “Nemo Washi”: Building Consensus Like a Japanese Producer
Adam explains the Japanese business concept of Nemo Washi, and how it shaped his leadership style—building trust, alignment, and resource sharing across teams.

[00:44:00] Smashing Red Tape at PlayStation: Killing the Concept Submission Process
At Sony, Adam eliminated outdated approval systems and championed indie access, unlocking millions in dev revenue and streamlining platform entry.

[00:50:00] Iron Galaxy’s Secret Sauce: Co-Development with the Best in the Biz
Adam discusses co-developing Skyrim, Diablo III, The Last of Us Part I, and Fortnite—and how Iron Galaxy became one of the industry’s most trusted studios.

[00:56:00] Launching Vivrato: Solving the Game Industry’s Hardest Problems
Now at Vivrato, Adam's mission is to help devs at all levels—focusing on industry-wide challenges with a personalized, high-impact advisory approach.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Rémi Racine is the founder & CEO of Behaviour Interactive—the studio behind Dead by Daylight and dozens of other titles. A veteran of the games industry for over 25 years, Rémi has helped shape not just iconic games but also the entire Canadian game development landscape - this week! 

00:02:10 — From Montreal to Mainstream: Remi’s first game at age 24

Discover how Remi’s early passion project turned into a pioneering move in Canadian game development.

00:08:45 — The Birth of Behaviour Interactive

Learn how Remi spun off from Multimedia Interactive to create a now-iconic game studio.

00:14:30 — Behind the Scenes of Dead by Daylight

Remi discusses the strategy, surprises, and evolution of Behaviour’s biggest hit.

00:19:55 — How to Keep a Game Studio Independent

A rare look at the decisions and principles that kept Behaviour from being acquired.

00:27:12 — The Reality of Licensing vs. Original IP

Get Remi’s take on the balance between creative control and commercial viability.

00:34:00 — What Triple-A Studios Get Wrong

Insights from Behaviour’s CEO on the cracks in big-budget game development.

00:41:10 — Advice for Young Game Developers

Remi shares the practical skills and mindset that aspiring devs should master.

00:49:55 — His Bold Bet on Service-Based Games

Explore why Remi believes in games as ongoing services—and what makes that sustainable.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Nolan North has brought to life your favorite videogame characters with his voice! From Uncharted's Nathan Drake and Assassin's Creed's Desmond Miles, to scores of others, he is a top talent in the industry. We discuss the freedom of preparation and being broke but happy - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] From Soap Operas to Sound Booths: Nolan North’s Unexpected VO Journey
Nolan shares how a friend encouraged him to pivot from acting on Port Charles to voice acting—kicking off a prolific video game career.

[00:06:00] Recording Anywhere: How Remote VO Work Changed the Industry
Nolan explains how post-pandemic voiceover work allows actors to record high-quality audio from home studios across the country.

[00:12:00] Childhood Impressions and Baseball Dreams
Hear how Nolan’s early love for mimicking voices and playing sports shaped his journey before he ever touched a microphone.

[00:20:00] Breaking In with $750 and a Yell
Nolan recalls his first video game gig, yelling lines for just $750—and how that led to a reputation as a go-to, reliable voice actor.

[00:26:00] Bringing Nathan Drake to Life with Performance Capture
Nolan details how Uncharted rehearsals, ad-libbing, and trust from Amy Hennig made the character of Nathan Drake feel human and iconic.

[00:33:00] Going Beyond the Voice: Crafting Penguin, Joker & More
Nolan dives into his diverse range—from his gruff Penguin in Arkham to an offbeat version of the Joker and even made-up languages.

[00:47:00] Voice Acting Wisdom: It's Not Rejection, It’s Fit
He reflects on casting experiences and why actors should focus on authenticity over perfection—it’s about the right fit, not the best read.

[01:00:00] The Power of Preparation & Professionalism in Voice Work
Nolan stresses the importance of showing up early, knowing your lines, and respecting the team—success is in the discipline.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest John Blackburn is a founder and CEO of Avalanche Software, makers of hundreds of games for dozens of platforms, such as Hogwarts Legacy and Disney Infinity. He has tales of when games paid royalties and having to take a chance. We discuss how to talk to execs and being true but not canon - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Mortal Kombat Funded Avalanche’s Origins
John Blackburn reveals how Avalanche Studios was launched thanks to Mortal Kombat Trilogy royalties—literally bankrolling the studio's earliest days.

[00:13:00] Salt Lake City: An Underrated Game Dev Hotspot
John shares the rich game development legacy of Salt Lake City, from the roots of Sculptured Software and Access Software to Avalanche and beyond.

[00:21:00] Working on Mortal Kombat at Sculptured Software
John discusses his first big project as a junior programmer, working on Mortal Kombat for Super Nintendo—with access to an arcade machine right outside his office.

[00:25:00] The Crazy Coincidences Behind Avalanche’s Founding
Learn how a failed job offer, a chance bar conversation, and a loophole in rights ownership led to Avalanche’s first contract with Midway.

[00:31:00] Mortal Kombat Trilogy: The Royalty Deal That Changed Everything
Blackburn explains how the CD-based release of Mortal Kombat Trilogy and a classics reprint led to a royalty windfall that solidified the studio’s future.

[00:40:00] Disney Acquires Avalanche for Platforming Expertise
John recounts how Avalanche’s work on licensed platformers like Tack and the Power of Juju led to Disney acquiring the studio after seeing early progress on Chicken Little.

[00:54:00] How Disney Infinity Was Born from Toy Story 3’s Toy Box Mode
Infinity started as a toy-themed platform game before pivoting into the toys-to-life genre after the success of Skylanders—with the blessing of Bob Iger.

[01:00:00] The Secret Behind Hogwarts Legacy: Portkey Games & Creative Freedom
Blackburn shares how Portkey Games enabled Avalanche to develop an original story set in the Wizarding World—without needing to retell the Harry Potter books.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Michael Morhaime was President and CEO of Blizzard during its glory years, shipping Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Diablo and more! Now Founder and CEO Dreamhaven he's won an Emmy and is in the AIAS Hall of Fame. We discuss red tape, how many billion dollar franchises you need on your resume and more - this week!

[00:01:00] Blizzard’s High Standards: Canceling Half Their Games
Mike reveals that Blizzard canceled nearly half of its projects to maintain quality, highlighting their ruthless pursuit of excellence—a strategy echoed by studios like Supercell.

[00:10:00] Founding DreamHaven: A Haven for Creative Freedom
Mike discusses how DreamHaven was built on the values that made Blizzard great: empowering internal studios, creative autonomy, and attracting AAA talent.

[00:14:00] Why “DreamHaven”? The Story Behind the Studio’s Name
Mike shares the inspiration behind DreamHaven’s name, emphasizing its vision as a safe space for innovation and creators.

[00:25:00] Early Days at Blizzard: From Electrical Engineer to Game Developer
Mike recounts how he transitioned from an EE background to co-founding Blizzard, even bringing the pitch to his dad for approval.

[00:32:00] First Console and Coding: The Bally Professional Arcade
A nostalgic dive into Mike’s first experience with programming via a BASIC cartridge console—a formative moment in his tech journey.

[00:44:00] Navigating Acquisitions: How Blizzard Stayed True to Itself
Mike outlines Blizzard’s acquisition history (Davidson, Sierra, Vivendi, Activision) and how the studio maintained independence through it all.

[00:50:00] Blizzard’s Secret to Long-Term Success: Prioritizing Players
Mike explains how being founder-led and focused on long-term value creation helped Blizzard consistently ship polished, player-first games.

[00:58:00] DreamHaven’s Future Vision: Platform Strategy & First Games
Mike talks about shipping on Steam, using Unreal/Unity for the first time, and the philosophy behind DreamHaven’s early development choices.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic Arts

Bing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department.

 [00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bing Predicted Game Success

Bing explains how walking into a studio could tell him whether a game would ship on time and be successful—drawing parallels to retail psychology and intuition.

 [00:10:00] Meeting Trip Hawkins and Dreaming of Virtual Worlds

Bing recounts meeting Trip Hawkins at Stanford and discussing early ideas about creating a “virtual Disneyland,” which inspired their future at EA.

00:17:00] Why Bing Fell in Love with Games

He discusses his childhood fascination with puzzles, invented games, and the dream of living multiple lives through games, likening them to the metaverse.

[00:18:00] Steven Spielberg on Games vs. Movies

Bing recalls Spielberg’s take on video games as a “lean-in” medium compared to passive film watching, and how body language helped refine cinematic pacing.

 [00:23:00] Designing the NASCAR Draft Meter to Win Over Critics

Bing talks about a near failure in NASCAR Racing’s development and how adding a visual “draft meter” salvaged the game’s perception and success.

[00:51:00] What Makes a Great Founder?

Bing shares his top insight into investing: founders who give you an insight you've never heard before are often the most successful.

[00:55:00] The Risk of Being 'Generally Right, Specifically Wrong'

He explains how being close to a great idea, but missing key details, can result in failure—coining the phrase “generally right, specifically wrong.”

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin Story

Kim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her joining Valve right out of college.

[00:04:37] The Birth of Portal: From Student Project to Valve

Kim explains how her DigiPen student project Narbacular Drop caught Valve’s attention and led to the creation of Portal.

[00:10:50] Working With Gabe Newell and Valve’s Culture

Kim describes Valve’s flat hierarchy, creative freedom, and how working with Gabe Newell shaped her career.

[00:14:08] Creative Constraints in Game Design

She shares how limits and constraints actually helped drive innovation in Portal’s level design.

[00:20:22] The Magic of Short Games: Why Portal Was Just Right

Kim reflects on why Portal was intentionally short and how the team prioritized player experience over game length.

[00:25:46] From Valve to Big Tech: Her Leap Into Cloud Gaming

She discusses her transition from traditional studios to roles at Amazon and Xbox, focusing on innovation in cloud gaming.

[00:33:10] Leadership Advice: Trust Your Gut and Advocate for Yourself

Kim offers advice for aspiring leaders in tech: trust your instincts, advocate for your ideas, and know your worth.

[00:42:15] Kim’s Hopes for the Future of Games

She envisions a future where games are more inclusive, emotionally resonant, and push the boundaries of storytelling.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week!

[00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash
Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.

[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Night Studios and Teaching at USC
Christian shares updates on founding Day for Night Studios, collaborating with legendary composer Grant Kirkhope, and teaching screenwriting at USC.

[00:15:00] – How Growing Up in Italy Shaped His Game Development Dreams
Christian discusses his early life in Italy, making camcorder movies, discovering Monkey Island, and finding a love for storytelling through games.

[00:27:00] – Early Struggles: Typing Code from Magazines and Hand-Me-Down Computers
He shares the challenges of learning basic programming on a Commodore 16 and ZX Spectrum without formal training or abundant resources.

[00:46:00] – Breaking Into Rockstar: Cold Email to Working on GTA III
Christian tells the story of how a spontaneous email to DMA Design led to his move to Scotland to help finish GTA III—despite having no prior open-world experience.

[00:53:00] – Designing Emergent Gameplay for GTA III
He explains how Rockstar embraced unintended player behavior, turning it into a core design philosophy that shaped GTA III’s legendary sandbox style.

[00:56:00] – Leading Design on Manhunt and Red Dead Redemption
After GTA III, Christian became the lead designer of Manhunt and helped shape the narrative and world-building of Red Dead Redemption.

[01:00:00] – The Price of Creative Passion: Burnout and Sacrifice
Christian reflects on the emotional and personal cost of spending five intense years building Red Dead Redemption, and whether true greatness requires full commitment.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!

Top 8 Highlights

[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success
Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.

[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre
Louis reflects on co-founding Westwood Studios, the groundbreaking work on Command & Conquer, and helping define the real-time strategy genre.

[00:10:00] – Game Design vs. Casino Game Ethics
He explains how game design in the casino industry is more ethically regulated than video games, raising concerns about manipulation in mainstream game design.

[00:17:00] – A True Multidisciplinary Game Maker
Louis shares how he started as both an artist and programmer, contributing art, code, and design to early Westwood projects.

[00:27:00] – Westwood’s Mission: Make Complex Games Accessible
From Eye of the Beholder to Dune II, Louis discusses how Westwood focused on turning deep mechanics into real-time, accessible gameplay.

[00:41:00] – Technical Wizardry: Building Custom Operating Systems
Louis describes how he built custom OS-level tools and game engines to push hardware limits, including 60 FPS variable frame rate systems in the ‘80s.

[00:44:00] – Childlike Wonder Games: His New Studio & GenAI Vision
He announces his new studio, Childlike Wonder Games, and its mission to create strategy games that let players use generative AI to customize gameplay.

[00:56:00] – The Wild Ride: Selling Westwood 4 Times Before EA
Louis recounts how Westwood was acquired four times—eventually landing at EA—and how he handled all the financial and legal negotiations himself.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Amir Satvat wants to get you a job in games. A business development executive at Tencent, he won the Game Changer award for the incredible community he built which has helped over 3k gamedevs find their next role with mentorship, mock interviews and more. We discuss "the troubles" and hopes for the future - this week!

You can find Amir's website and community here: https://amirsatvat.com/

• [00:00:00] The 17-Year Grind: Amir shares how it took nearly two decades—and hundreds of rejections—before landing his first job in games at age 38.
• [00:14:00] The Job Engine Behind 3,300 Careers: Amir’s community has helped thousands land jobs in games. From mock interviews to portfolio reviews—this is how it all works.
• [00:22:00] 2,300 Games and One Epic Spreadsheet: Amir has played over 2,300 games, tracking his thoughts on each one in a personal mega-spreadsheet since childhood.
• [00:26:00] Inside Four Rooms of Game Collectibles: Amir owns every Amiibo, rare WOW minis, and a glowing Wind Waker statue—all spread across four dedicated rooms.
• [00:27:00] Why the Game Industry is Shrinking (for Now): Layoffs, oversupply, and rising dev costs—Amir breaks down the real reasons behind the industry's contraction.
• [00:34:00] The Great Talent Shift to Asia: Data shows jobs migrating away from California and toward Asia and Europe—Amir explains why it’s happening and what it means.
• [00:42:00] Hope, Help, and Hugging at GDC: Amir reflects on the emotional impact of his work—stories of saved homes, career comebacks, and life-changing support.
• [01:08:00] Has Gaming Growth Peaked? The crew unpacks whether the golden age of game industry expansion is slowing—and what’s next for developers and players alike.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505