The Fourth Curtain

By Alexander Seropian & Aaron MarroquinLeisure Video Games

The Fourth Curtain episodes

October 10, 2024Things Blow Up with Mike Pondsmith
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, legendary game designer Mike Pondsmith joins hosts Alex and Aaron for an in-depth conversation about his expansive career, from creating the tabletop RPG Cyberpunk to collaborating with CD Projekt Red on Cyberpunk 2077. Mike discusses his early days in game development, the creation of Night City, and the challenges of translating tabletop concepts into video games. The episode is full of humor, industry insights, and engaging anecdotes, offering listeners a rare look into the mind of a creator who has shaped both pen-and-paper and digital gaming worlds.
Time-Stamped Highlights
[05:00:23] – Introduction of Mike Pondsmith, founder of R. Talsorian Games and creator of Cyberpunk.
[05:01:15] – Mike talks about his early work on Crimson Skies, MechCommander, and Blood Wake.
[00:02:19] – Discussion on the challenges of developing Crimson Skies and insights into game development at the time.
[05:03:57] – Mike shares his surprise at how organized CD Projekt Red was during the development of Witcher 3and Cyberpunk 2077.
[09:17:98] – Mike Pondsmith talks about inventing Cyberpunk and how it grew into a genre-defining game.
[10:04:69] – The origins of CD Projekt Red’s relationship with Cyberpunk, including a fun anecdote about selling the first copies of Cyberpunk in Poland.
[11:49:84] – Mike’s involvement in helping the CD Projekt team stay true to the Cyberpunk universe and why flying cars were initially excluded from Cyberpunk 2077.
[12:52:40] – Discussion on the differences between Cyberpunk and Blade Runner and how Night City was built with a unique vision.
[14:53:02] – Mike recalls his son’s involvement in game design and how the family has collaborated on creative projects like Shadow Scar.
[16:42:91] – The renaissance of tabletop games and the challenges with distribution in the modern market.
[22:35:15] – Mike shares a humorous story about playing D&D with a “lady of the night” as a cleric in one of his first tabletop games.
[28:50:00] – Mike explains his philosophy on world-building and how Cyberpunk was designed to allow players to fully engage with a violent, dystopian world.
[37:05:86] – Mike describes how tabletop game design provides a skeleton framework that translates well into video game development.
[49:51:27] – Mike reveals that Night City was inspired by Disneyland, with different areas modeled after distinct thematic zones.
[54:49:35] – The story behind designing the corporate logos in Cyberpunk and the longevity of some of his designs, including Arasaka.
[62:09:65] – The unexpected naming of R. Talsorian Games and the humorous origin behind the company name.
This episode provides a fascinating journey through the mind of one of the most influential figures in both tabletop and video games, packed with engaging insights and personal stories.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 28 min
October 03, 2024The Business Romance of Mihai Pohontu
This week on The Fourth Curtain, we’re joined by Mihai Pohontu, CEO and Chairman of Amber Studio, a distinguished figure in the gaming industry. Mihai, who was recently named Romanian Entrepreneur of the Year, shares his fascinating journey from the upheaval of post-revolution Romania to becoming a leader in global game development. A self-described business romantic, Mihai offers insightful perspectives on the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in shaping a better society.

Amber Studio, a valued partner to this podcast, has provided critical development services across the industry, including work on popular titles like Stumble Guys. In this episode, we dive into Mihai’s unique path into gaming through quality assurance, the philosophy behind game testing, and Amber Studio's approach to talent development in emerging markets. We also explore the industry’s challenges and opportunities in training the next generation of game developers and how Amber is actively contributing to this effort. Join us for an in-depth conversation about the future of game development, business philosophy, and the personal experiences that shaped Mihai’s career.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] – The Value of Game Testing: Mihai discusses how starting as a tester provides invaluable insights into how software grows and evolves, highlighting the benefits for aspiring game developers.
[00:05:00] – Amber Studio and the Global Game Development Ecosystem: Mihai shares the journey of Amber Studio, including its partnership with major studios and contributions to games like Stumble Guys.
[00:09:00] – Business Romantic Philosophy: Mihai introduces his idea of "business romanticism," where capitalism is seen as a transformative force for good, beyond shareholder value.
[00:12:00] – Bridging the Junior to Senior Talent Gap: Discussion on the challenges of transitioning junior developers to senior roles and the initiatives Amber Studio has implemented to train and support emerging talent in Romania and Mexico.
[00:19:00] – Amber Studio's Growth: Mihai details the expansion of Amber Studio into multiple countries, the diversity of platforms they work on, and the unique challenges of managing such a large team across different regions.
[00:24:00] – Mihai’s Upbringing in Revolutionary Romania: He reflects on growing up in Bucharest during a time of political and economic upheaval, which shaped his relationship with video games as an escape.
[00:32:00] – Early Career at Activision: Mihai recounts his early experiences working as a QA tester for games like Civilization Call to Power and Medieval: Total War at Activision.
[00:46:00] – The Formation of EA Romania: Mihai explains how he built EA’s Romanian branch from the ground up, hiring and managing a team that helped transform the European mobile gaming market.
[00:51:00] – Challenges in the Current Game Industry: Mihai shares his thoughts on how the industry has treated external development teams during difficult financial times and calls for more ethical business practices.
[01:04:00] – Training Good Managers: Mihai emphasizes the importance of management skills in the gaming industry and how to develop effective managers by teaching them through hands-on experience.
[01:07:00] – Amber's Approach to Teamwork: Mihai discusses Amber Studio’s focus on peer-to-peer learning, mentorship, and the importance of in-office collaboration to foster a thriving creative community.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 26 min
September 26, 2024Warren Spector Gets the Keys to the Kingdom
Our guest Warren Spector is the creative producer behind vastly influential games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex and many others. Now working on (working title) Argos, he joins us to talk about the birth of the immersive sim, having amazing mentors and ways to start a game, this week!

The conversation dives deep into Warren's career, discussing his design philosophy around player agency and choice, the history behind some of the most influential immersive sim games, and his experiences working at companies like Origin Systems, Ion Storm, and Disney. Warren shares behind-the-scenes stories about the development of Deus Ex, his transition from tabletop gaming to video games, and his collaborations with industry legends like Doug Church and John Romero. The episode also touches on Warren’s current work with OtherSide Entertainment and his ambitious, upcoming project, Argos.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] Warren discusses his design philosophy: player choice and agency.
[00:02:30] Alex recalls working with Warren at Junction Point on Epic Mickey.
[00:03:50] Aaron shares a humorous story about flubbing an interview with Warren during his early career.
[00:10:00] Warren talks about his early work with TSR and Steve Jackson Games in the tabletop space.
[00:12:00] Working on System Shock and the role of Looking Glass Studios.
[00:18:00] Warren’s transition from tabletop to video games and his early days at Origin Systems.
[00:20:00] The creative process behind Deus Ex and Warren’s work with Ion Storm.
[00:24:00] Story of how John Romero offered Warren creative freedom at Ion Storm to make Deus Ex.
[00:31:00] Warren shares his love for board games and his extensive library of books and car magazines.
[00:39:00] Growing up in New York and his passion for film, leading to his career shift.
[00:46:00] Warren’s first exposure to Dungeons & Dragons in 1978, which profoundly influenced his game design philosophy.
[00:53:00] His critique of games that lack meaningful player choice and why he strives to offer alternative solutions in his games.
[01:00:00] A sneak peek into his new project at OtherSide Entertainment, Argos, though much remains under wraps.
[01:05:00] Discussion about working with Disney and the creative challenges of designing Epic Mickey.
[01:09:00] Alex and Warren reflect on their experiences working within Disney and the corporate dynamics.
This episode is packed with gems on game design, industry insights, and entertaining stories from one of gaming's most celebrated designers.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 30 min
September 19, 2024Ed Fries Races The Beam
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron sit down with Ed Fries, a pivotal figure in the gaming industry and former VP at Microsoft, where he helped launch the Xbox. Ed shares stories from his early days at Microsoft, including how he made the leap from working on Office products to heading up the game division. He dives into the creation of the original Xbox, the challenges the team faced, and the infamous "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting where Xbox's future hung in the balance.
Ed also talks about his passion for game development, stretching back to his teenage years programming for Atari, and his ongoing support for indie game developers through his venture fund, 1UP Ventures. Throughout the conversation, Ed’s storytelling shines as he reflects on the impact of the Xbox, Halo, and his own entrepreneurial journey in the gaming world.
For listeners interested in the deeper technical side of gaming history, we recommend reading Racing the Beam, a book that explores the development of the Atari 2600, the platform that first captured Ed’s imagination as a developer.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] – Alex and Aaron introduce Ed Fries and reminisce about the early Xbox days.
[00:07:00] – Ed shares his background in game programming for the Atari 800.
[00:13:00] – The origin of the first-ever screensaver, developed by Ed at Microsoft.
[00:23:00] – Ed's thoughts on the evolving game industry and his passion for supporting indie developers.
[00:29:00] – How Ed transitioned from the Office team to leading Microsoft’s game division.
[00:34:00] – Behind the scenes of the Xbox’s early development, including the "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting with Bill Gates.
[00:45:00] – The crucial role Halo played in the success of the Xbox launch.
[01:00:00] – Reflections on the challenges Microsoft faced with hardware and pricing during the Xbox’s lifecycle.
[01:05:00] – Ed’s post-Microsoft career, including Halo 2600 and the founding of 1UP Ventures.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 34 min
September 12, 2024Frank Gibeau's Silver Bullets for Game Development
Join Alex Seropian (founder of Bungie) and Aaron Marroquin as they dive into the incredible minds behind the video game industry in The Fourth Curtain. In this episode, they chat with Frank Gibeau, the CEO of Zynga, who takes listeners on a journey through one of the most legendary corporate turnarounds in gaming history. From his early days at EA to leading Zynga through a $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two, Frank shares valuable insights into leadership, strategy, and the ever-evolving world of mobile gaming.
Episode Highlights:
[00:00:00] Frank humorously reflects on Zynga’s rough early days, where the company was generating nearly $700 million, but only $12 million in profit. He explains how the team turned things around, transforming it into a mobile gaming powerhouse.
[00:01:00] The hosts discuss Zynga’s historic $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two Interactive. Frank shares an amusing anecdote about how this deal briefly held the title of the largest video game deal—until Microsoft acquired Activision shortly after.
[00:05:00] Frank recounts his journey from EA to Zynga, emphasizing the cultural shift he implemented and the tough leadership decisions needed to improve the company’s operations.
[00:12:00] A deep dive into the creative struggles behind iconic games like The Sims and how collaboration with game developers drove EA’s early success.
[00:32:00] Frank and Alex reflect on the challenges of navigating a public company’s pressures, making tough calls on game launches, and the importance of putting quality ahead of short-term financial goals.
[00:43:00] Frank reveals how he was initially recruited to Zynga and how he used Words With Friends' chat feature to bring in top talent like Bernard Kim.
[00:50:00] The episode wraps with Frank discussing Zynga’s strategy of acquiring studios to build “forever franchises,” sharing key lessons learned from EA’s acquisitions and how Zynga avoided those pitfalls.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the business side of gaming, leadership, and the evolution of mobile games.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 14 min
September 05, 2024 Jordan Weisman Makes Stuff Up
Our guest this week is the legend Jordan Weisman. Creator of BattleTech, Crimson Skies and the world's first alternate reality game, he's now working on Adventure Forge, a platform to help non-engineers make videogames. We talk buying D&D from Gary Gygax, at Gary's house!, the secret to entrepreneurship and creating the "Bungie bubble" this week!

[00:07:00] Interview Introduction: Jordan Weisman’s Career Highlights
Alex introduces Jordan Weisman’s career and his influential work in gaming and alternate reality games (ARGs).

[00:10:00] The Origins of WizKids and Collectible Miniatures
Jordan talks about founding WizKids and the success of HeroClix.

[00:15:00] Early Gaming Experiences and Inspiration for Shadowrun
Jordan discusses how his early exposure to Mesoamerican culture and tabletop games influenced the creation of Shadowrun.

[00:26:00] Adventure Forge: A Platform for Game Creation
Jordan introduces Adventure Forge, a platform for user-generated content (UGC) in video games.

[00:34:00] The Rise of MechWarrior and Working with Activision
Discussion about the development of MechWarrior 2 and the challenges faced with Activision.

[00:44:00] Disney, Star Wars, and Interactive Experiences
Jordan talks about his work on interactive systems for Disney, including the development of a system that allows actors to recognize guests.

[00:59:00] Alternate Reality Games and Storytelling
Jordan explains his ideas for alternate reality games (ARGs) and the concept of discovery-based storytelling.

[01:08:00] The Making of "I Love Bees" and Pitching to Spielberg
Jordan recounts how the ARG I Love Bees came to life and his meetings with Steven Spielberg and Kathleen Kennedy.

Jordan's kickstarter campaign - check it out! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jordanweisman/sea-of-legends-open-world-crpg
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 19 min
August 29, 2024 Harvey Smith Knows the Secret to Magical Games
Our guest this week is the co-creative director of Arkane Studios, Harvey Smith. Starting out in QA for System Shock and other games, he went on to be lead designer for Deus Ex and ultimately made Dishonored at Arkane. We talk meeting your heroes, recombining systems and the secret to making a magical game this week!

[00:00:00] - Harvey Smith discusses his first encounter with a game that sparked his passion, System Shock, comparing it to seeing one's first love in a movie.

[00:45:00] - Harvey recounts his experience with Ultima 8, explaining how he created a list of 100 ways the game could have been improved and how he was eventually given a team to fix these issues.

[01:05:00] - Harvey shares the development of Deus Ex, discussing how the team decided to extend the development period by six months after realizing the game could be significantly improved.

[01:13:00] - Harvey emphasizes the importance of having additional time for game development, citing examples like Deus Ex and Dishonored, where extra time made a substantial difference in quality.

[01:17:00] - Harvey and Alex discuss the challenges and rewards of working in the game industry, touching on topics like QA work, the grind of production, and the passion required to succeed.

[01:25:00] - The episode wraps up with thanks to the listeners, information about the production team, and a call to action to visit the podcast's website and follow on various platforms.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 29 min
August 22, 2024Behind the Headlines: Dean Takahashi’s Journey Through Gaming’s Biggest Stories
In this exciting episode of The Fourth Curtain, hosts Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin dive deep into the world of gaming journalism with none other than Dean Takahashi, the lead writer of GamesBeat at VentureBeat. With over three decades of experience covering tech and gaming, Dean shares his unique insights on the evolving landscape of the gaming industry, the challenges of maintaining journalistic integrity in the age of AI, and the stories that have shaped his career.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Dean’s Perspective on AI in Journalism
Dean discusses the importance of unique perspectives in journalism, especially in an era where AI-generated content is becoming more prevalent.
[00:12:00] - The Art of Juggling Multiple Stories
Dean explains how he manages to publish over ten stories a day, offering a peek into the meticulous planning and execution that goes into his work.
[00:18:00] - Dean’s Early Gaming Experiences and Journalism Journey
A nostalgic look at Dean’s introduction to video games, from playing Pong in Las Vegas to his first console, Intellivision, and his journey to becoming a prominent gaming journalist.
[00:27:00] - The Ethics of Game Journalism and Insider Information
The hosts explore the ethical considerations of covering the gaming industry, from handling embargoed information to maintaining neutrality.
[00:43:00] - The Future of Gaming: Blockchain, Web3, and Beyond
Dean shares his thoughts on the future of gaming, including the potential of blockchain and Web3 technologies in revolutionizing the industry.
[00:51:00] - Challenges and Hopes for the Gaming Industry’s Future
A discussion on the impact of unionization, open platforms, and the importance of accessibility in the gaming industry.
Tune in to hear Dean’s incredible stories and his predictions for the future of gaming. Whether you’re a seasoned industry veteran or a casual gamer, this episode offers valuable insights into the dynamic world of video games.
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 3 min
August 15, 2024 Rod Fergusson Shakes The Jello
This week's guest is a well-known "closer" who has steered the ship for some of the biggest games ever. Beginning with Train Simulator, he went on to serve as Producer for Counter-Strike Xbox, Gears of War, Infinity Blade, BioShock Infinite. Now helming Diablo at Blizzard, he talks triage, teamwork and not shaking the jello - this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 21 min
August 08, 2024 Inside CD Projekt RED: Michal Nowakowski on The Witcher, Cyberpunk, and Gaming's Future
Our guest this week is Michal Nowakowski the co-CEO of CD Projekt Red, the renowned studio behind iconic games like The Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077.

With nearly two decades at CD Projekt, Michal shares his journey from the early days of video game distribution in Poland to leading one of the world's most celebrated game development companies.

Beginning as a game distributor, CD Projekt went on to develop The Witcher, which sold a whopping 75 million units! Michal discusses the company's strategic decisions, such as developing the next Cyberpunk game in the US to capture an authentic American feel, and their ambition to create impactful, meaningful experiences for fans worldwide.

We talk Gwent, the funnest way to learn English and the "number one" way to get a job, this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505
1 hr 18 min

About The Fourth Curtain

From the publisher's feed

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the…