Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.

Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life.

In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss:

• The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the world
• The importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems.
• The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamics
• The difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationship
• And she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God.

Episode Highlights

1. "Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully."
2. "I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within."
3. "Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others."
4. "If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive."
5. "Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform."
6. "Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Check out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/
• Fuller Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu/
• Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) Overview
• Circle of Care Model Explained
• Positive Psychology and Emotions
• Jeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and Emotion
• Asian American Values Scale Reference
• Race and Trauma Resources
• Jeanne Tsai’s research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQ
• John and Julie Gottman Relationship Research
• Asian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)

Show Notes

• Jessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity.
• How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing.
• The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary.
• "Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families.
• Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships.
• Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility.
• "Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?"
• Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced.
• The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships.
• The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness.
• Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships.
• "Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day."
• How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression.
• The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families.
• Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics.
• Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone.
• "Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference.
• Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations.
• The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference.
• Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body.
• The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience.
• The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience.
• Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving.
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• Each of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth.
• The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humility
• Thriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God.
• Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners.
• And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain.

About Jessica ChenFeng

Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller’s Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge.

Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She’s co-authored two books, Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and FamilyTherapist, as well as Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.