Glenn asks: Is Jon’s heterodoxy insufficiently pugilistic? ... Jon’s theory of social media-driven “structural stupidity” ... Do the Republican Party’s structural flaws negate its policies? ... The rise of social media and the disappearance of free play for kids ... Race, trans issues, and the future of the country ... Why are economists uniquely heterodox thinkers in the academy? ... What fills the “God-shaped hole” in the hearts of putatively secular Americans? ...

For this week’s episode, I’m joined by NYU psychologist Jonathan Haidt, author of several books, including (with Greg Lukianoff) The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion. Jonathan is also the co-founder of Heterodox Academy, where I serve on the advisory council. Despite that connection, this is our first extended public conversation.

This is not, however, the first time I’ve engaged with Jon. After a talk some years ago, I asked Jon a question during the Q&A session, which I reintroduce here. Heterodox Academy’s mission is very important, but does focusing exclusively on viewpoint diversity prevent us from acknowledging that some viewpoints are more cogent than others? Jon’s recent Atlantic article “Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid” generated a lot of discussion, and he elaborates on his theory of “structural stupidity” here. He claims that, at the national level, the Republican Party’s hostility to moderation has made it structurally stupid and unable to examine its own premises, while left-dominated “epistemic institutions,” like journalism and academia, are mired in their own kind of structural stupidity. I find the structural analysis compelling, but I think it elides the fact that some of the Republicans’ policy position are not, in themselves, stupid at all. Jon is concerned that increasing intolerance on the left, especially on college campuses, may be caused by generational changes in child development. Gen Z is the first generation to have had access to social media as children, and they also had far less unsupervised free play than previous generations. I ask Jon whether this shift can account for groupthink around COVID-induced school shutdowns and drastic changes in attitudes toward trans and racial issues in the US. While the academy no doubt leans left, there is much more viewpoint diversity in economics departments than other areas. Jon has some interesting ideas about why. And finally, I ask Jon whether religion could play a role in increasing viewpoint diversity.

It was great to finally connect with Jon. I hope and suspect it won’t be the last time we sit down for one of these conversations.

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0:00 Glenn asks: Is Jon’s heterodoxy insufficiently pugilistic? 

5:23 Jon’s theory of social media-driven “structural stupidity”

16:18 Do the Republican Party’s structural flaws negate its policies?

26:53 The rise of social media and the disappearance of free play for kids

35:42 Race, trans issues, and the future of the country

45:34 Why are economists uniquely heterodox thinkers in the academy?

48:08 What fills the “God-shaped hole” in the hearts of putatively secular Americans?

Links and Readings

Heterodox Academy

Jon’s Atlantic article, “Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid” 

Jon’s book, with Greg Lukianoff, The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure

Elizabeth Noelle-Neumann’s book, The Spiral of Silence: Public Opinion—Our Social Skin

Brown University President Christina Paxson’s letter about racial justice

Glenn’s rebuttal to Paxson in City Journal

Jon’s childhood independence advocacy organization, Let Grow

Jon’s social media research

James A. Morone’s book, Hellfire Nation: The Politics of Sin in American History

John Tierney and Roy F. Baumeister’s book, The Power of Bad: How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It

John McWhorter’s book, Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

John McWhorter is back once more for an episode of The Glenn Show, so let’s get into it.

I begin by reporting on my current “European Tour.” Last week I spoke at the London School of Economics, and I’m currently headed from Toulouse, France to Marseille to deliver the keynote address at the International Conference on Public Economic Theory. It’s been quite an enlightening experience so far, as I’ve gotten a look at how young black European economists are thinking about inequities within and without their profession. John and I discuss a recent report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, which offers a picture of racial disparities in the UK that differs greatly from that of the US. But as John notes, the impression that people abroad have of our problems is often distorted. One of our real problems is our tendency to filter all thinking about race and ethnicity through “blacks and whites.” The US is a much more diverse place that that, and John and I ask how long the concerns of African Americans will determine the national agenda for all “people of color.” Next, John asks a big question: What is the real cause of racial disparities in the commission of violent crime? We know that black perpetrators are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime, but we need to understand why. I gently chide John for missing the recent Old Parkland Conference, but he’s got a good excuse: He was busy recording a series of lectures about the history of the alphabet for the Great Courses! I am utterly fascinated by this project, and I convince John to give us a preview. And finally, I offer a critique of John’s recent column, which addresses school shootings.

This one is buoyant and weighty in equal measure. As always, I want to hear your thoughts. Let me know in the comments!

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0:00 Race and economics in the UK

14:26 How long will the concerns of native-born black Americans drive the race conversation?

23:15 The shaky “people of color” coalition

27:51 Trying to account for racial disparities in the commission of violent crime

39:44 Reclaiming moral agency from white people

42:37 The Old Parkland conference

44:37 John’s forthcoming lectures on the alphabet

51:47 Glenn’s critique of John’s school shooting column

Links and Readings

The “Sewell Report” from the UK’s Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities

Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld’s book, The Triple Package: How Three Unlikely Traits Explain the Rise and Fall of Cultural Groups in America

Ezra Klein’s interview with Reihan Salam

Glenn and John’s conversation with Randall Kennedy

Ian Rowe’s book, Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to Power

John’s recent NYT column, “Gun Violence Is Like What Segregation Was. An Unaddressed Moral Stain.”

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

Race and economics in the UK ... How long will the concerns of native-born Black Americans drive the race conversation? ... The shaky “people of color” coalition ... Trying to account for racial disparities in the commission of violent crime ... Reclaiming moral agency from white people ... The Old Parkland conference ... John’s forthcoming lectures on the alphabet ... Glenn’s critique of John’s school shooting column ...

The work of the Woodson Center ... Sylvia’s recent five-city tour to support victims of violence ... How tragedy moved Sylvia to start Voices of Black Mothers United ... Sylvia: We must work with the police in our communities ... What role does race play in VBMU’s work? And where are the fathers? ... The importance of forgiveness in the healing process ... How VBMU is reaching out beyond Black communities ... Sylvia: The pain of mothers who lose children to police violence is no different than mine ... Glenn: Why do we hear so little about Christian faith’s role in healing? ... Glenn's Bradley Prize acceptance speech, May 17, 2022 ...

Earlier this year, I announced that I would be donating 10% of the net income from this newsletter to the Woodson Center to support the vital work that they do. I also want to use the newsletter and TGS as a platform to promote the work of Woodson Center-affiliated organizations that are making change on the ground in communities around the country. My first guest in what I hope will be a long ongoing series is Sylvia Bennett-Stone, Director of Voices of Black Mothers United, who is joined by Robert Woodson himself. Sylvia and Bob were on hand at the recent Old Parkland Conference, where I had the honor of speaking, so we sat down for an in-person discussion. (You can also read the great essayist Gerald Early’s account of the conference). I had Sylvia on the show last year, but VBMU’s work supporting mothers who have lost children to violent crime is so powerful and so important that I thought it appropriate to have her back.

Bob begins by introducing the mission of the Woodson Center, which provides support to “social entrepreneurs” who work within communities to help solve the toughest problems facing them today: crime, poverty, academic achievement, and many others. Sylvia then talks about a recent five-city tour that she undertook with VBMU to support victims of violence and to raise awareness for victims’ rights. Sylvia recounts how the loss of her daughter moved her to reach out to help other mothers who are suffering. Sylvia is clear that, in order to prevent more deaths, more police are needed in black communities, and good relations need to be maintained between law enforcement and the people they serve. As Bob points out, contrary to what many progressive activists claim, efforts to defund the police are unpopular in black communities with high crime rates. The subject of forgiveness comes up more than once in this conversation. Sylvia and Bob tell me about instances in which the mothers of slain children not only forgive the perpetrators but sometimes reach out to them in prison. This remarkable fact suggests to me that there is a strong Christian influence in VBMU, which Sylvia and Bob affirm, though Sylvia notes that they support whoever needs their help, regardless of religious affiliation. I wonder why, given the importance of Christianity in many black communities, we hear so little about it in the media. We end with a final word from Sylvia, who urges anyone struggling with the pain of losing a child to reach out to VBMU.

Sylvia and Bob are doing vital, necessary work, and I am so proud that all of us here are able to support them. And if you want to make additional donations, please visit the websites for the Woodson Center and Voices of Black Mothers United.

Unfortunately, we only had a little over a half hour for our conversation. So to round out this week’s episode, I’m including a speech I delivered when I accepted the Bradley Prize in a ceremony in Washington, D.C. earlier this month. It was a tremendous honor, and I want to share the moment with all of you here.

Ten percent of net revenue from this newsletter goes to support the Woodson Center and programs like Voices of Black Mothers United. To help support these absolutely essential organizations, become a subscriber to this newsletter, or donate directly to the Woodson Center and Voice of Black Mothers United.

0:00 The work of the Woodson Center

2:26 Sylvia’s recent five-city tour to support victims of violence

4:40 How tragedy moved Sylvia to start Voices of Black Mothers United

9:29 Sylvia: We must work with the police in our communities

13:38 What role does race play in VBMU’s work? And where are the fathers?

18:20 The importance of forgiveness in the healing process

22:07 How VBMU is reaching out beyond black communities

25:23 Sylvia: The pain of mothers who lose children to police violence is no different than mine

28:39 Glenn: Why do we hear so little about Christian faith’s role in healing?

34:10 Glenn's Bradley Prize acceptance speech, May 17, 2022

Links

The Woodson Center

Voices of Black Mothers United

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week, I’m back with my friend John McWhorter. A lot has happened since we last spoke, so let’s get to it.

We begin by discussing the horrific, racially motivated mass shooting in Buffalo, New York. John states that, among other things, the event makes him wish we had a word besides “racism” to help us distinguish between truly racist acts like that shooting and situations where there may be racial disparities but no actual racism present. One of the shooter’s motivations was so-called “great replacement” theory, or the idea that there is a conspiracy on the part of Democrats or Jews or whoever to “replace” large parts of the white population in the US with Latino immigrants. Tucker Carlson has given much airtime to a version of this theory (though without any overt antisemitism), and I’ve appeared on one of Tucker Carlson’s shows in the past. John asks me if I think Tucker is indirectly responsible for stirring up ugly sentiments toward immigrants of the short held by the shooter. I respond that, while I don’t endorse everything Tucker says on his show, I don’t believe him to be a racist. After all, Democrats often point to the impact that the country’s shifting demographics may have on elections. We need to be able to debate the immigration issue on its merits. It’s perfectly legitimate to believe that we need tighter controls on who is allowed to live in this country, and one ought to be able to say so without being charged with racism or xenophobia. We move on to last week’s Bradley Prize ceremony, where I received the honor and delivered a speech. John recounts a time when a white woman condescendingly gave him a book by Walter Mosley in an attempt to “educate” him. The incident turned John off of Mosley’s writing, but he’s come back to it, and he is delighted by what he’s found. (When is Mosley going to get a Pulitzer or a National Book Award? It’s past time!) And finally, we discuss the difficult problem of mass shootings, mental illness, and the second amendment.

I grab hold of more than one third rail in this one. As always, I want to hear your thoughts. Post them below!

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0:00 John: We need a word besides “racism” to distinguish racial inequities from what happened in Buffalo

10:49 Glenn: I don’t agree with everything Tucker Carlson says, but he’s not a racist

20:22 Demographic change is happening in the US, but how should we understand it?

28:07 What does Tucker think he’s doing and what is he actually doing?

36:21 Glenn: We should be able to freely debate immigration policy without evoking racial tropes

46:31 Glenn accepts the Bradley Prize at the organization’s gala 

51:13 How a white woman’s condescension stopped John from reading Walter Mosley

57:42 Can we disentangle incidents like the Buffalo shooting from ideology?

1:02:34 A correction from Glenn

Links and Readings

John’s book, Woke Racism

Glenn Greenwald’s Substack post, “The Demented - and Selective - Game of Instantly Blaming Political Opponents For Mass Shootings”

Part 1 of the NYT’s series on Tucker Carlson

Glenn and John discussing whether Glenn should appear on Tucker Carlson’s show

A partial transcript of Glenn’s appearance on Tucker Carlson’s show

Glenn and John discussing Glenn’s appearance on Tucker Carlson’s show

John’s NYT column on Walter Mosley

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

John: We need a word besides “racism” to distinguish racial inequities from what happened in Buffalo ... Glenn: I don’t agree with everything Tucker Carlson says, but he’s not a racist ... Demographic change is happening in the US, but how should we understand it? ... What does Tucker think he’s doing and what is he actually doing? ... Glenn: We should be able to freely debate immigration policy without evoking racial tropes ... Glenn accepts the Bradley Prize at the organization’s gala ... How a white woman’s condescension stopped John from reading Walter Mosley ... Can we disentangle incidents like the Buffalo shooting from ideology? ... A correction from Glenn ...

How scientific are the social sciences? ... Glenn defends the reliability of economic predictions ... The strengths and weaknesses of “natural experiments” ... How much does culture affect economic behavior? ... New insights from behavioral economics ... Dan: We trust the social sciences too much ...

This week’s episode is a throwback to 2015, when Daniel Kaufman, professor of philosophy at Missouri State University, editor of the online magazine the Electric Agora, and (at that time) a mainstay on bloggingheads.tv and meaningoflife.tv, invited me onto his show Sophia. I stumbled across this video again last month, and I think it remains an illuminating discussion that addresses some fundamental questions about economics and the social sciences.

We begin by discussing the “science” part of the social sciences. I explain that we economists tend not to philosophize about our discipline as much as other social scientists. But many major economic thinkers (think Keynes, Marx, and others) elaborate concepts that do ask fundamental questions about the nature of economics. To call a discipline a “science” implies that its findings are testable and replicable, that its insights are able to predict future conditions from present conditions. Does economics do that? I argue that it does. Of course, since much economic data is drawn from real-world behavior rather than controlled experiments, it can be difficult to isolate variables in a way that would satisfy, say, a physicist. This is because markets exist within particular cultures and under particular social arrangements that are not themselves purely economic in nature. And cultural values are going to affect, at least to some extent, how people behave within markets. The idea that people will try to maximize utility in a rational way is important to economics, but of course we know that humans often behave in ways that seem irrational. How does economics incorporate irrationality into its methodology? And finally, Dan and I were speaking at a time when the (still ongoing) replication crisis was all over the news. Is replication as seemingly dire a problem in economics as it is in psychology?

Dan’s training in philosophy helps him to ask some really deep questions here, and I think you can tell I relished the opportunity to answer them. Love to know what you think about this “classic” episode.

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5:44 How scientific are the social sciences?

11:20 Glenn defends the reliability of economic predictions

29:47 The strengths and weaknesses of “natural experiments”

36:48 How much does culture affect economic behavior?

50:06 New insights from behavioral economics

58:12 Dan: We trust the social sciences too much

Links and Readings

Dan’s website, the Electric Agora

The Electric Agora on YouTube

Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir’a book, Scarcity: The New Science of Having Less and How It Defines Our Lives

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe