The Inequality Podcast

It is no secret that the power of American unions has waned since the middle of the 20th century. Their downturn has had far-reaching consequences: As the threat of organized labor recedes, employers may feel less pressure to offer concessions. Our guest today has done significant work studying the decline of the labor movement and its repercussions for workers, unionized or not. Few are better positioned to reflect on how we got here, how it has changed American society, and what lies ahead.

Tom VanHeuvelen is a sociologist at the University of Minnesota. His research examines the long-term causes and consequences of deunionization and other drivers of inequality. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, he discusses the often-overlooked benefits of unions, the rise of “right-to-work” laws, and what the future of unionization may look like.

Inequality is often framed in terms of a binary: rich and poor, haves and have nots. But inequality between groups — based on gender, class, race, and so on — must be understood alongside inequalities within particular groups, at particular intersections of identity. Our guest today has contributed foundational work to this intellectual framework. She has also enriched our understanding of how Americans feel about their economic prospects in an era of high inequality.

Leslie McCall is a professor of sociology and political science at the CUNY Graduate Center and associate director of the Stone Center there. She is the author of Complex Inequality: Gender, Class, and Race in the New Economy, a landmark study of wage inequality, as well as her most recent book, The Undeserving Rich: American Beliefs About Inequality, Opportunity, and Redistribution, which chronicles Americans’ shifting attitudes about the economy. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, she discusses her work examining inequality and Americans’ beliefs about it, as well as what her findings might tell us about meritocracy and the effects of artificial intelligence on the labor market.

To a large degree, the levels of inequality present in the United States intensified in the 1980s and 1990s. Starting in those decades, the poorest Americans began facing new threats, such as the “reforms” made to social welfare programs and the rise of mass incarceration. Our guest today has spent 30 years studying how politics and policy have shaped the lives of America’s poor, and his new book explores a lesser-known trend, one that persists today: the massive revenues the legal system extracts from the poor, a phenomenon he calls “legal plunder.”

Joe Soss is the Cowles Chair for the Study of Public Service at the University of Minnesota. His most recent book (with sociologist Joshua Page) is Legal Plunder: The Predatory Dimensions of Criminal Justice. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, Soss discusses the mechanisms through which the legal system strips resources from the poor, as well as how poverty governance became defined by “neoliberal paternalism,” which he chronicled in his first book, Disciplining the Poor.

We all belong to networks. Whether in the boardroom or the barroom, human beings use networks to try to achieve their goals. But not all networks are created equal, and so access to them (or the lack thereof) can drive inequality. At the same time, the networks with which we identify most — such as friends, family and colleagues — are often not the connections that prove most decisive. Rather, as our guest today has argued, it is weak ties that frequently leave the strongest influence on the course of our lives.

Mario Small is a sociologist at Columbia University. He is the author of Unanticipated Gains: Origins of Network Inequality in Everyday Life, and his work has explored how networks shape both mobility and inequality. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Small discusses core insights from his 20-plus years studying urban inequality, advice for blending quantitative and qualitative methods, and the surprisingly potent networks that emerge around New York City daycare centers.

Among ancient civilizations, Rome inspires a special kind of fascination in the Western World. While the parallels between society now versus then are often overstated, we nevertheless can better understand ourselves by endeavoring to understand those who lived 2,000 years ago. Our guest’s work explores one facet of Roman life that reverberates in the way we live today: the surprisingly sophisticated financial affairs of average Romans.

Kim Bowes is a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania. Her latest book is Surviving Rome: The Economic Lives of the Ninety Percent. The book draws on her own archeological work to chronicle Romans’ struggles with work, affordability, credit markets, and more. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, she discusses the ways consumerism defined plebeian life, the challenges of collecting data about the ancient world, and what the skeletons of Roman farmers can tell us about the economic lives they lived.

Across three seasons of The Inequality Podcast, thinkers from a range of disciplines have discussed how their work helps us understand inequality. Given the breadth and depth of the research featured, it is difficult to believe that the subject was once an afterthought in economics. For our 50th episode, we present a scholar whose groundbreaking ideas have proven integral to the study of inequality for over a half century, anticipating many current arguments and representing the foundations for others.

Joseph Stiglitz is a Nobel laureate and a professor of economics at Columbia University. He is the author of many books, the most recent of which is The Origins of Inequality, and Policies to Contain It. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, he discusses his 60-year career studying the economics of inequality, including his influential studies of labor markets, his tenure working in the Clinton White House, and his thoughts on how AI might shape inequality.

As part of the current immigration crackdown, federal agents have turned to profiling, making stops on the basis of occupation or perceived ethnicity. In a system where confirming legal status can take days or weeks, agents are finding shortcuts in stereotypes. Aside from the dubious constitutionality of these stops, the assumptions behind these tactics raise questions: What makes someone look illegal? According to whom? And how do these perceptions emerge?

René Flores is an associate professor of sociology at the University of Chicago. His work investigates how social boundaries form around immigrants and racial minorities and how these divisions contribute to inequality. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, Flores discusses the complicated views Americans express about immigrants in surveys, how those views affect immigrants and non-immigrants alike, and how a perception of “social illegality” can extend beyond actual documentation status.

Immigration has once again taken center stage in the United States. While the federal government’s crackdown continues to unfold, the ideas driving immigration politics are far from new. Concerns about economic competition and cultural assimilation would have been familiar to Americans a century ago. Yet research from our guests demonstrates that many of the commonly held beliefs about immigrants are, in fact, largely myths.

Economists Ran Abramitzky and Leah Boustan are the authors of Streets of Gold: America’s Untold Story of Immigrant Success. They are responsible for groundbreaking work in the study of economic history, finding inventive ways to harness both qualitative and quantitative methods. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, they discuss misconceptions about the economics of immigration, the persistence of upward mobility among the children of immigrants, and what those children’s names might tell us about cultural assimilation.

This conversation was recorded in October.

There is an old cliche about imagining the end of capitalism. But explaining the rise of capitalism presents its own challenges. Human beings have congregated in marketplaces for millennia. When did simple barter and trade tip into what we call capitalism? And why did that particular system conquer the world? Answering such questions requires an interdisciplinary approach, and perhaps there is no better starting place than with experts in the two fields that have the most skin in this game: economists, who study capitalism’s inner workings, and historians, who chronicle how humanity got here.

Sven Beckert is a professor of history at Harvard. His new book is Capitalism, and it chronicles how human history was transformed by this relatively recent advent. In this conversation with host (and economist) Steven Durlauf, Beckert discusses slavery’s role in the development of capitalism, why it took hold across the globe, and what, if anything, may spell its demise.

Economics as a discipline holds particular authority among the social sciences. The field owes its heft in part to the sophistication of its methods and models, both of which seem to grow ever more intricate. But what if in its quest for more complex techniques, mainstream economics is overlooking basic yet essential questions: For one, what is the economy?

Jonathan Levy is a historian at Sciences Po. His latest book is The Real Economy, which critiques contemporary economics and draws on historical analysis to posit a new conception of “the economy.” He is also the author of Ages of American Capitalism, which chronicles the evolution of the U.S. economy. In this conversation, he discusses his work, what Keynes learned from Freud, and what economists can learn from historians with host Steven Durlauf.