138 - What Winning Shops Know: Direct Mail Works Best with the Right Guidance
August 13, 2025 - 00:59:56
Jimmy Lea hosts a conversation with Cameron Ritter from Upswell Marketing and shop owner Tom Grover of All Right Automotive & Diesel, focusing on the power of postcards as a marketing tool for auto repair shops. They explore how tangible, personalized mailers create strong connections, and how targeting the right customers, like diesel owners, can dramatically improve results. Tom shares his journey from running a busy shop with no formal marketing to achieving a 47-to-1 ROI through strategic campaigns. Cameron explains the difference between saturation and database mailings, the importance of penetration reports, and tracking returns through address matching and call tracking. Both emphasize the value of consistency, combining “push” (postcards) with “pull” (digital ads), and avoiding the stop-start trap with marketing. The discussion closes with Tom’s lessons learned on refining processes first, then using postcards to grow the right customer base.
Jimmy Lea, VP of Business Development
Thomas Grover, Owner of All Right Auto Repair
Cameron Ritter, UpSwell Marketing
[00:00:55] - Postcards remain effective because they’re tangible, personal, and can be highly targeted.
[00:05:12] - Tom shares his history in automotive and why he initially avoided marketing.
[00:10:40] - Targeting diesel owners boosted ARO and attracted the right type of customers.
[00:15:33] - Cameron explains saturation vs. database mailings and when to use each.
[00:20:48] - Penetration reports reveal where high-value customers are coming from.
[00:28:50] - Response to postcards can be immediate, but they often generate business months later.
[00:36:22] - Lost customer campaigns can re-engage clients after 6–12 months of inactivity.
[00:44:08] - Keeping postcard messaging simple avoids customer confusion and increases results.
[00:53:35] - Combining postcards with digital ads creates a more complete marketing strategy.
[00:59:20] - Consistency in marketing prevents the “cruise ship” slowdown effect.
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Episode Transcript Disclaimer
This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at [email protected]. Jimmy Lea: Thank you everybody for joining. Glad you are here, my friends, as we have this conversation. Joining us today is Cameron from Upswell, formerly known as Lik Mail. You may know them from their postcard days, way back in the day. And Cameron is here with us representing the, uh, ever-present world, world of marketing and postcards.
Jimmy Lea: Cameron, thank you for joining us. How you doing, brother? Hey, I appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, you know, the, the postcard industry is an industry that's never seen a downturn. Why is that?
Cameron Ritter: I think in the consumer, when you're, when you're marketing to your consumers, right, you're always looking to give them good incentives to come into your shop, and so that's exactly what that does in a proactive way, and it's something that they can touch and feel.
Cameron Ritter: Right. Digital is something that they can just see, but really when you're sending a personalized direct mail piece, it's got their name on it, they it, it feels like them, right? We can really personalize those messages and tailor that to who we're marketing towards. So I think that's why it's never gonna go away 'cause it's so
Jimmy Lea: Oh, it's so true, and postcards are awesome. I love postcards. I, I love postcards because they always get to the address that you have put on the postcard, whether or not that person lives there anymore, and I just moved recently. Right? You know that it gets there, it gets to that person, or it gets to that residence.
Jimmy Lea: Question for our audience. Have you ever had a client come into your shop with somebody else's postcard? Drop that in into the comments. Let me know if you have ever redeemed a coupon for a, a client or a client at your shop and the coupon was not addressed to 'em because the person had moved or maybe you had an old list.
Jimmy Lea: That, that's interesting. Cameron, thank you for being here, brother. I appreciate it. Absolutely. I appreciate the time. Uh, and joining us as well is Tom Grover. Tom from All right Auto Tom. How the heck are you, brother?
Tom Grover: Doing great. Great to be able to be with you today.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. How's the weather up there in Boise?
Jimmy Lea: Well, you're in Emett outside of Boise.
Tom Grover: I think yesterday it was 102. Today's only supposed to be about a hundred, so not too bad.
Cameron Ritter: When you say only a hundred, it's hot.
Tom Grover: That is hot. That is
Jimmy Lea: hot. That is hot. I, I, I just moved from St. George, Utah to Northern Utah, and I'm, I'm delighted with these mornings where I wake up and it's 65 degrees outside, and the high today is 94.
Jimmy Lea: I don't know what it is today, but the other day it was a high of 94, and I thought, wow, that's great. I'm, I just, I think I'm gonna go outside and work all day. 94 degrees is, is not that hot when you grow up in Vegas. And 115 is your August. That's true in August. Uh, there's many nights. It does not get below a hundred degrees.
Jimmy Lea: I think there's a good three week stretch in August that that happens. Well, gentlemen. What's that, Tom?
Tom Grover: It's all stay in the air conditioning.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We do that too. We do that too. It's climate controlled. 72 degrees and gorgeous. So, Tom, uh, thanks for joining. I wanna get a little bit of a history before we start about, all right, automotive, how'd you get started?
Jimmy Lea: What, what brought you into the industry? Uh, and then let's jump into some marketing questions.
Tom Grover: You know, I actually started into the industry back when I was. A teenager, I had an uncle that had an auto repair shop. Uh, he always said that he wasn't a mechanic because a mechanic made a living fixing cars and he could never make a living.
Tom Grover: So I was introduced into a shop like that, um, back in teenage years. And uh, and I went from there into a dealership setting and some other things. Tried to get out of the automotive world. I actually turned down a full ride scholarship, uh, to Weaver State in the, uh, management program because I did not want to, uh, be in the automotive program.
Tom Grover: And, uh, I actually found myself going back to it because it was something that I knew and I knew I could make money. So I opened my own shop in, uh, 1997. Just a small one person shop. Well, I had, I had another employee for a little while. Um, and I had some injuries to my body that, uh, the doctors just said, you just can't keep doing this.
Tom Grover: You either gotta grow bigger or get out.
Tom Grover: and at the time, I, I got out and I went back and I finished my, uh, education, got my bachelor's degrees in business and, uh, HR management. Uh. I went into the financial world in, uh, 2007. Um, wrong time to jump into the financial world as the markets were crashing.
Tom Grover: And, and I, yeah, oh man, a couple of years and, uh, said, I'm going back to something I know I can make money in. And, uh, had great opportunity to, um. To open up this shop, uh, in Emmett in 2012. Um, and it's, it's big enough that I can grow and not be doing it myself. I mean, the first little bit, it was me doing everything myself, but I quickly grew it and, uh, have come a long way since that day.
Tom Grover: So I've been in the industry quite a while.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah, you have, and, and it sounds like a Phoenix story where you started with one that kind of died. You regrew, you rebirthed, and. Uh, after education, you had survived the hardest years in the world, in the financial industry. Oh, seven to 12. Holy cow. That's tough.
Jimmy Lea: And then you decide to jump back into automotive and, and the success you're getting from it now. I, I just love it. At what point in that rebirth, when you came back and, and it was you and somebody else, and, and you were getting things started up again in 20 12, 13, 14, at what point did you look at what you were doing and say, okay.
Jimmy Lea: We've gotta establish a marketing plan.
Tom Grover: You know, I didn't look at marketing plans at all for, not until the last year and a half or so, because oh, I was so busy. Marketing was the farthest from my, from my mind, in all honesty. Um, I was. I was very busy and couldn't keep the work, keep up with the work that I, that I had coming.
Tom Grover: Um, wow. And my biggest struggles were other areas, um, just productivity and trying to get the work out and in a timely manner and things like that. So,
Jimmy Lea: so you, you had that perfect, you had that perfect problem. It was so much word of mouth marketing. It was so successful. Your shop was so busy. Not until a couple years ago did you implement a marketing program.
Jimmy Lea: Correct. Oh my gosh. I mean, Cameron, do you hear that very often?
Cameron Ritter: No, it's, it is pretty hard out there for a lot of shops. Um, you know, a lot of shops have to market, especially in, in, you know, suburban areas, um, where there's a lot of competition. Right. So now you don't hear that too often. No. You really don't.
Cameron Ritter: That's no, the, the main, the main topics I hear are, uh, I don't have enough cars and I don't have enough techs. It's one or the other. Um, so those are the two problems. I'm, I'm always hearing year after year.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Now, when Cameron, when Tom came on with Upswell and, and turned on his postcard program, what were the results?
Jimmy Lea: What did you see from your point of view as you have a, a, a, basically a view of more than one shop, you view all the nation, what did you see happen with Tom?
Cameron Ritter: Yeah, Tom, um, his area is very unique. Um, 'cause when we send out a postcard blast, it, it is immediate return, um, from what we see on our side as far as the analytics.
Cameron Ritter: Uh, just to give you guys an idea, I can pull up in my, in my, uh, screen here, but an, uh, a typical saturation mailing for the automotive industry. Through this is our own database, right? We've been, like you said, Jimmy, we've been doing this a long time. So we've got a pretty substantial database of shops in our system.
Cameron Ritter: And so through all those shops, they're receiving about a 0.8% response rate, which is well above, uh, an average response rate that you would get in the way that if you target differently, right? Um, now Tom here went ahead and did a two and a half percent response rate on his saturation mailings. Um, so it's pretty actually incredible, um, how much more he's doing than, than what the average is.
Cameron Ritter: And a lot of it has to do with area, right? I mean, if you're talking about 0.8% response, I mean, that's a very good response rate in direct mail. Um, but really what you wanna look at is, as far as this stuff goes, is rate of return, right? So a typical rate of return, um, on a saturation mailing would be like an eight to one.
Cameron Ritter: Um, and then database mailings, they, they fluctuate, but all in. Um, and the database ones, I mean, you can get anywhere from 15 to one to a hundred to one. Um, but Tom is, Tom is sitting at like about a 47 to one through all of his postcard marketing efforts. Oh, that's awesome. So, yeah, it's
Jimmy Lea: Cameron. Let's, let's define a couple of terms here so everybody understands.
Jimmy Lea: What's, what's the difference between a database marketing and a saturation marketing?
Cameron Ritter: Right. So database marketing, that's something that we're gonna do, not monthly. Typically it is gonna be more of a, um, quarterly type of endeavor. Can you guys hear me still? Yep. Yep, yep. Oh, okay. Perfect. So yeah, that's gonna be more of like a quarterly type endeavor for us.
Cameron Ritter: Now, a lot of shops, if you've got text messaging, emailing, all that good stuff, that's all good, right? We're just talking about print here. Um, so to give you an example, we'll send out gift cards in the fall, um, getting towards like September back to school. We'll do it in Christmas time as well. Um, rebate checks in the spring.
Cameron Ritter: Holiday cards. There's a multiple, there's multiple products that you can do for. Uh, database mailing. So that's going to your database and that's gonna be either a lost customer mailer, so maybe someone that hasn't been in, in the last, uh, six months or 12 months all the way out to 24 months trying to win those people back.
Cameron Ritter: Um, or it could just be all of your database and your to your top spenders, right? So there's multiple different ways that you can do that. And then saturation mailing is something that, um, Tom has, has done a pretty good bit of. Um, it's where you're basically taking your top performing routes. So for those that don't know a carrier route, if you think of a zip code as a, a pie, a carrier route's just a slice of that pie, right?
Cameron Ritter: And so we're targeting very specific carrier routes in a zip code that fit the demographic that you're looking for, um, and the spin levels that you're looking for, right? We can see all kinds of data on this stuff. Um, and then one, one thing that we forgot to mention here is list mailing. So if you're a diesel shop or if you're a Euro shop, we can go out and find those specific makes and, uh, we can find year ranges.
Cameron Ritter: There's a lot of different stuff that we can do to bring in, uh, those specific customers, right?
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. So, Tom, when, uh, Tom, when you got started with Upswell and Upswell marketing. Where did you start? What did you go after
Tom Grover: our, our first area, we were, we were still busy, but, uh, the customers, we weren't getting our ideal customer.
Tom Grover: One of the things that we had noticed is our diesel customers were more our style of customer. They were willing to spend the money and, uh, do their work. So we said we wanna get a. More diesel customers in here. And so I reached out to Cameron and I says, Hey Cameron, what can I do here in, uh, getting more diesel customers?
Tom Grover: And we reached out and we looked at how many diesel truck owners there were in my area, and we sent a mailing out just to them and. So those that responded were diesel, diesel truck owners, and all of a sudden our diesel work increased and our, our customer that we wanted increased. So, you know, we were really busy with an a RO of, uh, I don't remember exactly what it was at that point, but it was like $450, uh, average repair order, you know, uh, through changes and stuff like that.
Tom Grover: I mean, now we're. Almost a thousand dollars a RO, you know, but it's, it's getting the right customer. So we were really busy, but we didn't have the right customer. And reaching out and trying to pinpoint some of those, um, of the ideal customers is what one of our focus was.
Jimmy Lea: Nice, nice. That's awesome. What, what kind of results did you expect that you would get, Tom, as you put out these postcards?
Tom Grover: You know, I, I see postcards all the time in the mail and I just throw 'em away. I think, you know, they're not really that, you know, not that big of a deal. Okay. Cameron says, try it. And I sent 'em out there and, and we did see a lot more response. You know, it's like, okay, we're, we're starting to build and, and bring people in.
Tom Grover: Um, the one thing I, I did want to keep from getting was. The guy that was coming in just for the, the cheap, uh, oil change type of a thing, you know, I, I didn't want him to be out there just, uh, looking for the, for the deal and that was it. Well, and that
Jimmy Lea: goes to your setup with your postcard. What did you do to modify the postcard?
Jimmy Lea: So it's not an oil special, this is an oil service postcard. You, you must have clearly. Demonstrated exhibited the ideas that this is a value to you as a diesel owner. What did you do? What was your message?
Tom Grover: You know, we, we got a few people, 'cause we put a, a, a special on there for an oil change, diesel oil change.
Tom Grover: But the thing we got the most was probably, uh, our added value one, which was, uh,
Cameron Ritter: uh, 15 off, 1 50, 30 off, three 50 and 90 off a thousand.
Cameron Ritter: Yep. Wow.
Tom Grover: So it, it kind of helped boost that, you know, and, you know, for a diesel truck it's always over a thousand. So, you know, uh, people were coming in not just for their oil change, but for the, that additional repairs and to get, get a little discount there, but it, it got our name out.
Tom Grover: Uh, we had some of our current customers respond to us and say, I didn't realize you did diesel old. And, and so, oh, that told us, you know, that was a education issue that we were lacking. Uh, we did some changes at that point and added diesel into our name, uh, into our, into a lot of our marketing and stuff like that.
Tom Grover: So people did know that we do diesel, so.
Jimmy Lea: Oh, that's awesome. I, that's exactly where I was gonna go. What was your current client's feedback? And it sounds like they were opened up to a whole new world of, oh my gosh. I can take my diesel there too. Yeah. Yep. That, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Uh, Blake's got a question that we wanna ask and Tom Cameron, I, one of the two of you, which one wants to answer this one?
Jimmy Lea: How are you calculating that rate of return to get a 47 to one? What are you doing? So that is basically
Cameron Ritter: total revenue over total investment, right? So. Tom has invested X amount of dollars and has generated x amount of dollars in revenue that's gonna give you that, that 40, uh, seven to one. Right? So basically all that's saying is, it's just a fancy term of saying every dollar that Tom gives me, I'll give 'em 47 back.
Jimmy Lea: And so you are, you've been able to isolate this to just the postcard. So this isn't all of his marketing. This is isolation down to just the upswell marketing. That's, so this is
Cameron Ritter: what we do is, uh, what we call address matching, right? So postcards are something that are very hard to track. Um, as a lot of people know that have done postcards, not everyone's gonna bring the postcard in.
Cameron Ritter: Um, so what we do is we say, okay, um, we know that Jimmy received a postcard this month
Cameron Ritter: all right, auto repaired. We know that he came in within the last 45 to 60 days, right? So then we match that address up. And not only that, but we also, uh, have call tracking on there where we can say, oh, he called that number on the postcard, right?
Cameron Ritter: So there's ways that we track what the return is on what we can, what we're able to match up, and then also categorize them, right? So was it a new customer that came in? Um, was it a win back, someone who hadn't been in the last 12 months? Was it a loyal customer from a loyal customer campaign or what we would call a database mailing, right?
Cameron Ritter: Yeah. Or was it a upswell loyal, someone that came in initially from the postcard and has returned for a second and third visit. Right. So we're able to categorize that and what they spent on our, uh, on our dashboard to really show you kind of what the whole picture of what you're looking at. Right.
Cameron Ritter: Because it's all, marketing's all about transparency. And so we want you guys to be able to see really who's coming in and what they're spending. And calculate, you know, your cost per customer, revenue per customer, your rate of return, all this fun stuff that lets you know that your marketing's working.
Jimmy Lea: That's nice. And, and Tom, to, to what Cameron has just said, people with the postcards, not everybody brings it in. Uh, I The question for you, Tom, but also for our listeners, ha, do you honor the postcard? Coupon promotion. Do you honor that if they don't have it in their hands and are able to give it to you?
Jimmy Lea: Or do you say, oh, you know what, that's great. Uh, when you bring the postcard in, then you can claim the promotion.
Tom Grover: We actually do honor it. Um, and basically one thing that we found is a lot of times they won't bring the postcard in. Yeah. Sometimes they won't even mention the postcard. But part of marketing is, you know, them seeing it and reminding them to do it, you know, and so it, it could have been an existing customer that we had.
Tom Grover: Um, and you know, they sat there and thought, oh, I, I've gotta get my vehicle in and get this service done. And, and then they see the postcard and they go, oh yeah, let me get, go in there and do it. And they'll go on their phone and they may have already had my number in there and call. You know, but, um, so sometimes it may have not have even been directly related to what we said on the postcard as much as it was a reminder.
Tom Grover: Um, and we kind of track that as we, um, Cameron had mentioned there was, uh, geo routes, you know, that, that we went, um,
Jimmy Lea: like neighborhoods that's getting neighborhoods, right?
Tom Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Where are our customers and. One of the things we looked at, we said, okay, on those that are, are where the mailing's going to or where our current customers are, Cameron was able to give me a map and says, okay, here's the area.
Tom Grover: And I looked at it and I said, man, I'm not even getting this new neighborhood with all these new people that are moving into town. I says, we need to do some marketing to that area. And, and so we switched and, and marketed to that area and, and another area it's like, okay, the downtown area. They're, they're lower income.
Tom Grover: They're not spending that much. But this neighborhood out through here that I'm not marketing to, they're, they're a more affluent neighborhood. I want marketing to this area. And so I, I started pinpointing these neighborhoods and said, okay, I want this neighborhood and this one, and this one and this one.
Tom Grover: And we started sending postcards to that. Um, 'cause it's really hard to, you know, send it to all. You know, every possibility in your, in your area, just cost-wise. So you can start in and you just start working through each specific area and market to those that are, that are your customer.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah, I love that.
Jimmy Lea: You know, and this goes right into John's question, John has a question about how do you determine what's the best approach for those you target and for your marketing? Do you, do you, uh, feel that it should be based on your ideal customer? Uh, a preferred area. They live a targeting brand or model owner, a gas versus diesel.
Jimmy Lea: Uh, John, that's a phenomenal question and yeah. You know, Tom, you, you talk about going to the neighborhoods. Have you ever gone to Cameron and said, Hey, I, I, well, no, you did mention it. You went and said, Hey, I want more diesel customers. So you guys targeted the diesel with cars and trucks, but mostly trucks.
Cameron Ritter: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That, that is a good question. Um, we, I, so really it's a conversation if, if you get started doing direct mail, whether it's with Upswell or whoever you choose to use, it needs to be a conversation between you and that consultant, right? Because we only know what you guys tell us. Um, so if you're, if you're a diesel shop, I'll probably know it 'cause it's in your name.
Cameron Ritter: Um, but I'll still probably ask the question, well, do you want to target diesels? Right? Um, but if you're an auto shop, they just hired a diesel tech. It. Okay. Maybe you want to go after some diesel. So you, if you let me know, then I know that what we can go after and then we'll do a, a, a full evaluation of your shop and really see, you know, how many cars you need, um, to fill up that text time.
Cameron Ritter: Right. So we do a full evaluation of all of that stuff and, and really, uh, all, a lot of it is, you know, on, on the, on the part where you said a preferred area they live, most of your customers are gonna come from right around your shop. And you'll see that, um, if we pull what we call a penetration report, I've got one here.
Cameron Ritter: I don't know. Jimmy, are we able to share screen or
Jimmy Lea: At the bottom, click on the, uh, present. Okay. Plus you can share screen. Let's see here.
Cameron Ritter: We will do
Cameron Ritter: this one here. Can you guys see that? Not yet. It's coming up. It's thinking. There it goes. Perfect. So this is Tom's penetration report. And so this is something that we use to identify, uh, where your best customers are, where your best carrier routes are, right? So we're able to see, like, for example, Tom crushes it.
Cameron Ritter: Um, he's got, if we take this first line, for example, here's the zip code carrier out. Um. You know the residential counts here. This is single multifamily, but this is his customer count, right? So he's got 81 customers coming from this single carrier route. So he's, he's dominating, um, penetration percentage.
Cameron Ritter: This, all this is, is market share, right? He's got 11.82% market share of this carrier route. Yeah. Um, we can also see what the average customer spends. So when you're talking about who do we know to target. Well, it's gonna be the routes where you're already having the most success and who is spending money with you, right?
Cameron Ritter: Like Tom said, there's some areas, um, let's find one. Like for here, for example, uh, penetration is not bad here. I mean, you're still getting 5% penetration, but if I had to choose between that route and let's say this route, I'm choosing this one all day, right? They're spending $2,600 and he is already got 53 people coming from there.
Cameron Ritter: Right. Um, so we know that that route is gonna bring new customers once you introduce postcards into it. Um, and then you can see different things like median household income, median home value, net worth. You can see a lot of different stuff here, right? So when you're talking about how do we know who to target on a saturation level, this is it.
Cameron Ritter: And then on like a, uh, on a list mailing level. So that's gonna be your diesels and euros. Um, that is. Really what we're doing is a couple of things. We can pull a radius and find diesels and euros that way, um, which is probably the most common way. Or we can still take your data, run a very similar report to this, but on a zip code level and figure out what your top penetrated zip codes are, and then target those zip codes.
Cameron Ritter: So there's a couple different ways that we can do this. I love
Jimmy Lea: it. And, and Tom, question for you, when you are setting up a, a postcard campaign or you're, you're developing this idea, you're going after a neighborhood, you're going after a vehicle make and model or diesel or gas, how quickly do you see a response from postcards when you send them out?
Tom Grover: You know, sometimes within a week I start seeing them coming in. Um, I mean, I've had some, the, the same day they get the postcard, they pick it up and they make a. Call and set an appointment. So, you know, it's, it's normally fairly soon is when we start to see it. Yeah. But as far as how long does it last?
Tom Grover: We've had people bring 'em in six months later and says, you know, I've had this thing sit in here, will you still honor it? And it's like, well, yeah, I'll still honor it, you know, but that's just telling me, you know what, they saw some value and they stuck it on their refrigerator or on their counter, and they, they kept it there until they needed it.
Tom Grover: And so, yeah. You know, sometimes it is hard to tell what the impact of that mailer is. Um, because they may have sat on it for a long time. We done That's true. Two other mailings since, since the time that, you know, some of these have come in and, and they bring it out. Can I still honor this one? It's like, sure.
Tom Grover: You know, so.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. And that's great 'cause it gives you an opportunity. You can either honor it or not. It's your choice. Do you put expiration dates on all of your postcards, Tom?
Tom Grover: Not, not all of 'em, but some of them.
Cameron Ritter: Yeah. A lot of times, uh, we do like limited time only. Yeah. And that, that kind of language leaves it up to the owner to say, you know, no, we're not gonna honor it or we are gonna honor it.
Cameron Ritter: thing with expiration dates, now you got me on that, Jimmy. Um, we like to think of expiration dates is that's only hurting you and it's only hurting the customer because once the expiration date hits, the customer can't use that coupon anymore. And that's one less person that's gonna come into your shop.
Cameron Ritter: Right. So you, you want as many at bats as you can if you need car count. Um, and so that's what we're trying to do.
Jimmy Lea: I love it. Tom, have you ever, uh, had a situation where you reactivated a client that was lost because of postcards?
Tom Grover: You know, we, we've had a few, uh, I haven't tracked that very much, but, but we have had a few that, you know, it's been a, a while since they've been in and they, they come in.
Jimmy Lea: yeah. Uh, Cameron, what do you see in the industry as a lost customer campaign? What, at what point do you consider a client lost? That's a great question. Um,
Cameron Ritter: and it depends on the shop. It, a lot of times we, we take a look at what you're currently doing to retain your customers, right? So like text messaging, uh, emailing, reminders, all that sort of stuff.
Cameron Ritter: And then we say, okay, when does that cut off? Yeah. Um, for a lot of shops, that's six months, right? Some shops it's 12 months. So what we do is we say, okay, at the end of whatever campaign that you have going on, now, we'll start there. So if, if they haven't been, you know, if there's six months from visiting your shop and then you stop putting touch points on 'em, okay, well, we can put touch points on 'em with a postcard, right?
Cameron Ritter: And send that out to them. You know, like I said, roughly quarterly. Um, some shops do it monthly. Um, to, to their lost customer campaigns. Right. 'cause you're just trying to get as many as you can back. Um, right. So that, that's a general answer. But for a lost customer, for us in our system is technically 12 months.
Cameron Ritter: Um, oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. So that's what we count as what, what I refer to earlier as a win back, but a lost customer could be up to the shop owner, um, on what they,
Jimmy Lea: they define as a lost customer. Oh, and that's so true, Cameron. I was talking to Kathleen Callahan down in Florida, and she's got a lot of snowbirds that are back and forth.
Jimmy Lea: So for her it's 18 months to 24 months. Yeah. That it, that it actually triggers a lost customer campaign for her versus every other shop. It, it is probably somewhere in that six month, nine month, 12 month on the outside. Right in that realm. That you need to make sure that customer's coming back into your shop.
Jimmy Lea: Absolutely. Because if they're not, they, hopefully they're going somewhere else and taking care of the vehicle. Yeah. Hopefully they're into your shop and, and making sure that you got one set of eyes and one set of professionals taking care of your vehicle.
Cameron Ritter: Absolutely. No, for sure.
Jimmy Lea: Um, Tom, to you, Anna, I know that you most recently had the mastermind group come together to your shop to give you a lot of feedback on your shop from.
Jimmy Lea: The street signs to the parking lot, the lobby, the front counter, the, the, the shop, the receiving parts area, the parking lot, marketing, bookkeeping, all the things. What, what value do you see in your mastermind group, you know,
Tom Grover: as a, as that, uh, being in a group? I don't know if it's as much having them come to my shop as much as it is me going to other shops.
Tom Grover: And, you know, as I went to other shops and, and I said, man, I've got to improve this and this and this. And when I'd come home, I had, I had pages of stuff I, I needed to improve in my own shop. And so I would come home and I would make all these improvements. So the nice thing was, is when they visited my shop, I had already hit a lot of these areas and they really focused on.
Tom Grover: Some areas of, um, kind of a little deeper aspects, you know, on how to make a little bit more productive and, and some processes to refine and some things like that. Um, there were a few, few little issues that, uh, you know, came up as far as, um, signage and things like that. It were, there were things that I was already working on.
Tom Grover: Sure, sure. I actually had sign. Coming. They were already ordered when they came, but they weren't up yet. So, um, but it was based off of feedback from other shop owners, from other shops and things like that. So, you know, just to, to see what other guys are doing and seeing what expectations, see what's working out there.
Tom Grover: I mean, it is worth a lot. Um, and then to have 'em come into my shop and say, you know, ask us, is it always this clean? Well, yeah. It and asking the guys, is it always this way? Is always, it is like, yeah, it generally is. Or, or, no, it's not, you know, um, but just kind of backs us up a little bit as Yeah, you're, you're doing good things, you know, you're on the right path, so.
Jimmy Lea: Oh, I think that's awesome. I, my father says that everyone's an example. Some people are a good example of what not to do and some are a good example of what to do. And it sounds like you have learned from other people's scenarios, from their situations, brought it back to your own shop, implemented it so that you were even further down the road when they came to look at your shop.
Jimmy Lea: It was, it was more of a surprise. Oh my gosh, this is so good. Because you did the work, because you put in the time because you visited other shops and said, oh my gosh, I need to fix this at my place as well, Tom, that's phenomenal. Speaking of that, did you run your marketing ideas through your mastermind group?
Tom Grover: Um, I, I've kind of talked about a few of 'em, but, um, not as much as I, as I should have, I guess. Um. Once I started this group, I mean, I only started the group a year and a little over a year and a half ago.
Tom Grover: And I tell you, I struggled. I, I always had constant growth, you know, from 2012 to where I'm today, I, I kind of had consistent growth.
Tom Grover: You know, I'd grow a little bit each year, right? I was always growing, I was always behind schedule, you know, had plenty of work. But my biggest focus was getting the work done. How do I get this work done? And, and I tried a couple of different groups out there that, you know, uh, coaching groups and they would come in and they would say, okay, your big focus, you need to be doing marketing.
Tom Grover: And I'd look at 'em, I'd say, why do I need to be spending more on marketing when I can't get the work done that's here? And they says, well, just trust me.
Tom Grover: do this and this and, and let's start focusing on your marketing. And I, I, I just, you know, I didn't agree with what they wanted to do in the direction.
Tom Grover: And so I'd kind of given up a little bit on, on the coaching groups. I thought, ah, they're just after my money and wanting to do marketing. And, um, then I went to CIMA and, uh, Cecil was, was doing a workshop there. Uh, yeah, I don't remember the title of it, but basically it covered communication in your shop and, uh oh, it's the
Jimmy Lea: front to back conversations.
Tom Grover: Yeah. And I sat down in that meeting and I go, whoa, he just hit exactly what I need to do. I need to improve my communication in my shop. I need to make this, this will make things happen. And I, and I came home and I started putting stuff to work, and I started into doing some coaching. And, uh, all of a sudden I went from, uh, so that was in November?
Tom Grover: And that year I finished strong. So that year I finished at 1.2 million.
Jimmy Lea: Congratulations.
Tom Grover: I finished the next year, almost 1.7 million after joining the coaching group. Oh, what did that, what did that do? But as a result, I mean, our A A RO went up and everything else, I hired more technicians, but my challenge was then, now I have to market and how do I market?
Tom Grover: And so I actually, I went to Mars last year and I, I brought one of my employees, she was also my sister, and, and she was really wanting to do the marketing and, and I sat down, went down there with her, and we kind of went through some stuff. I came back and did a few things, but it wasn't really, really clicking.
Tom Grover: Hmm. So we, I've, I've thrown some things out there with, uh, you know, as, as I've met with these other shops and see what's working and, um, and then really I'm excited here for, here in a few weeks. I'll be taking my manager down there, uh, and, and going through this marketing again and setting it together a real, we have a marketing plan, but we want to refine it.
Tom Grover: We really want to make it to where our weakness is, uh, is not getting the cars in. I want to be able to just churn, you know? And yeah. So we want to increase that volume of the shop in order to do so. Now we have to focus on marketing, but we've been able to fix a lot of the other aspects that needed to be fixed, so.
Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it, Tom. That's amazing. Uh, you, you, do, you know Tracy Holt performance place down here in, uh, Northern? Yep. Very similar story. Very similar story. The two of you, you needed shop efficiencies. You didn't need car counts, you didn't need average repair order, you needed shop efficiencies. And once you got that down, what happens naturally?
Jimmy Lea: Car count went up, average report order, app repair order went up, and now you're at the point where, oh my gosh, okay, we're efficient. Average peer order is perfect. It's where it needs to be. Alright, now we're at the point. Let's bring in more cards. Let's increase. Ah, I love it. That's awesome.
Jimmy Lea: Congratulations.
Tom Grover: You know what I also have to say about our postcards? Um, so when we started our postcards, and no one else here was really doing any postcards, and I really don't have a lot of shops here to, to pattern after either. Um, but. I started sending some out and I have to just as far as kudos to Cameron here, I got one of their postcards from one of the other shops and, um, I looked at it and I had to look at it.
Tom Grover: I kid you not for a good minute to figure out what they were trying to sell because they had so much on that postcard and there was. There was just so much. I'm like, well, are they a wrecking yard? Are they towing service? Are they a repair shop? What are they, what are they marketing here? You know? And they just threw so much in there and, and I thought, that's odd.
Tom Grover: Well, my son got the same postcard and he looked at it and he is like, did you see this dad? And I says, yeah. He goes, I couldn't figure out what they're marketing. You know, and so that has been a big example to me. You know, as Cameron as, as we shoot out these different things and he makes recommendations and they try to keep it pretty simple and where our focus is.
Tom Grover: Um, so, you know, sometimes we get stuff out there. Yeah, I looked at that postcard for a long time, but I really wasn't sure what they were marketing. Um, oh wow. So, you know, sometimes it's, it's getting our name out there and it, you know, in the right way.
Jimmy Lea: Right. Hey, it is that kiss method. Keep it simple, Simon.
Jimmy Lea: You've gotta keep it simple. Have a very focused message and know exactly what you're promoting. That's what you want in your shop, so you, that's what you ask for. Oh, I, I love it. I think that's great. I think that's great. What else? Uh, let's see. We've gone it through. Oh, John's got a question here. Let's, let's give John some some love here when it comes to marketing.
Jimmy Lea: Who should make the actual postcard that is sent out? If I make a postcard, can I just send it out to my customers? Anyways? What are the benefits of using someone like Upswell for my marketing? You know, I think that's a great question, Cameron. 'cause yeah, yeah. J John, I, I could go to Kinko's or copy place and, and print all the postcards I'd want.
Jimmy Lea: And you can, and you can put a stamp on every single one of 'em, or Cameron,
Cameron Ritter: or you could use someone like Upswell, right? So obviously your time's valuable and your time is money. Um, and so not only that, right? It's, it's actually a lot of times cheaper to use a company like us because we get print discounts, postage discounts, um, we also, you're not designing it.
Cameron Ritter: Our, we have an in-house design team that is actually designing that for us. Um. It's, makes it a lot easier on you, number one. Number two, when you are targeting, or when you're sending these postcards out yourself, you have no, no backend analytics or tracking, right? Um, so you can't see, you know, like I was talking about earlier with the address match backs, um, it's, it's hard for you to see all of that data on the backend, on what your actual return on your investment is.
Cameron Ritter: Um, and then number three. Targeting is such a big deal. Um, with, with postcards it's much harder for you to do when you go to USPS and you do EDDM, all these things. It's, um, you, you can see the map and you kind of know your area, but there's some areas maybe you don't know where you're getting customers from.
Cameron Ritter: And so that's what we are able to pull that penetration report that I was showing earlier. And really find out, okay, you've got eight people coming from here, but they're only spending 500 bucks, uh, on average in the last 12 months. But you've got, you know, 20 customers coming from here and they're spending 2000 with you on average in the last 12 months.
Cameron Ritter: So it's very, we can very fine tune, target your ideal customers, which is much harder for you guys to do on your own. Um, and so that, that's really three reasons. I, I would say you would want to use someone like Upswell. Um, and like I said, it, as long as you're doing postcards, uh, with somebody and you're doing it the right way, you've gotta have three things, right?
Cameron Ritter: The right, uh, the right people at the right time with the right messaging, right? All those three things have to combine. And we've, and we've been doing, I'll keep saying it, we've been doing it a long time and we've started in the auto repair industry that, you know, Greg Sands, our founder, uh, owned auto shops.
Cameron Ritter: So all of this stuff is from his brain and, and knowing how to do it, um. So we just have it down to a science, right? And we, we have different plans and, and programs that we do, and no contracts. And I mean, a lot, there's a lot of reasons I, I guess I should say on why you should use someone like Upswell.
Cameron Ritter: Um, it makes your life a lot easier and you're gonna, you're gonna get better return if you use, uh, so, so like, if you think of it as a cost savings thing, like, oh, I'll save myself some dollars to. Design it myself and, and do it this way myself. It's really gonna cost you money on the back end because of, you know, our ability to target and track this stuff for you.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. It's stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. I, I wouldn't advise it. Absolutely. Yeah.
Tom Grover: And I'll tell you what I, I do, I mean, Cameron will send me out a a what? A, a print.
Cameron Ritter: Postcard, proof, proof,
Tom Grover: postcard proof. And I look at it and go, that is not at all what I want. And I say, I want this and this and this.
Tom Grover: I want something like this and this and this. And they send it back to me and I go, oh, that's better, but this here, it's not what I want. Send it back. And, and they change. And you know, sometimes
Tom Grover: throwing things out and seeing what works. Um,
Tom Grover: we recently, the last two mailings. Which I haven't even reported back to Cameron as to how well this worked, but, um, we added, we have a, a virtual golf place here in town that started up and I thought, you know what?
Tom Grover: Maybe that's our target market. Let's get, let's, let's focus on some golfers, you know, and, and see if we can kind of pick up some of that. And so, uh, up in the top corner it was, if you pick up the thing, first thing that pops into your eye is, is the virtual golf. And, uh. It said, get round of golf on us. And we, we launched this out actually last, was it December, January?
Tom Grover: Ja. It was a winter month, so, you know, yeah. Were closed and, um, we, we sent it out and interesting enough, we did not get, we only had one customer come in and request the code to go get a free round of golf, but. My friend who owns the golf place, who is actually a financial advisor, so he works with my type of clients, um, reported back and said, man, our memberships jumped through the roof this month.
Tom Grover: It was all you, so here it is. We, we sent out, we didn't get people in the door specific to that golf. They didn't want the golf code. We got a lot of people coming back with, with the postcard itself. But, so we didn't, we didn't actually pay for anyone's round. 'cause only one, well, only one person requested it.
Tom Grover: Um, and we gave it to 'em and, and, you know, and so we thought, well, we didn't get anything. So the next round they actually, they sent that postcard to me, um, as a proof. And I go, oh, I haven't taken that off yet. I just. You know what, I'm just gonna run in another round. And so I think that was like in April or something like that.
Tom Grover: We ran it again. And,
Tom Grover: same results for us on our side. We did not get anybody coming in to ask for that, that code to do their own round of virtual golf. But on their side it picked up. And so how did that affect us? One thing is they were holding onto that, that card, thinking about the golf side.
Tom Grover: Yeah, they weren't looking for the special, but it, they were bringing in the card for other services. Um, wow. But you know, so sometimes it's throwing stuff out. It's like, was that unsuccessful? Was it successful? Hey, you know what? On the golf side, their memberships went up. They loved it. And so they were happy 'cause I just marketed for 'em.
Tom Grover: You know what, they deal with my clients. They're my type of client every day. So, yeah. Is, is that a loss for me?
Jimmy Lea: I'm seeing a co-marketing opportunity here. That's what I'm seeing.
Tom Grover: Yeah. It works great for that.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. That's super awesome. Tom, what advice would you give to a shop owner that's a little bit hesitant on starting a uh, uh, postcard campaign?
Jimmy Lea: What advice would you give them?
Tom Grover: You know, Cameron told me run at least at at two consecutive mailers. And before you really make a a decision. Um, the mail campaign is not the only thing we do in marketing right now, um, because, uh, it is a, it is, you know, more expensive than doing Google or Facebook marketing, things like that.
Tom Grover: But adding that into, um, our process keeps us in the forefront of people's minds. Um, it brings stuff in, it's just another aspect. So. You know, if you're a struggling shop and just struggling on, on trying to, to get the most dollar for, for value of getting out there, you might wanna start in, in like your Google and your Facebook, because it, it's the cheaper area.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Do the digital stuff first.
Tom Grover: Yeah. When you wanna get into really targeting your ideal person and to grow that a RO and to market specific areas. Um, you know what? The direct mail is a great way to do it, and you mix that in once you have your other campaigns going. So you send the, your direct mail, and then they go to the computer and they look it up and, whoa, your ads pop up on Facebook or Google or, you know, your, your website pops up.
Tom Grover: Now all of a sudden your marketing is, is more complete, more, um. You know who, who actually was responsible for getting that customer in? Was it the ad that they saw after that? Was it the, the original piece of mail? Who cares? You know, it's just another part of your marketing.
Jimmy Lea: And, and the answer is yes, and yes and yes, and yes.
Jimmy Lea: It was all a part of the marketing program. So yes, it was the Google ads. Yes, it was the Facebook ads. Yes, it was the postcards. Yes, it was all of the marketing plan. It worked because you had a marketing plan. You put it in place and you launched it. You track it, you find out what's working and what's not.
Jimmy Lea: Then you really elevate that. I, there were pe I, I've talked to people. I'm, I know we're talking about postcards, but I'm gonna put a billboard. Comment here. I had a friend, uh, two, two different shops that had billboards. They didn't know if they were actually making money off those billboards or not put tracking onto it.
Jimmy Lea: Shazam, now they know exactly. What they're getting from the billboards and neither one of 'em have taken 'em down. They are absolutely there and they're gonna stay there because it works and they're right off the freeway. So it totally makes sense. Yeah. So, uh, Tom, if you were to go back in time, what advice would you give to yourself in starting your postcard program?
Jimmy Lea: What lessons have you learned that you wished you knew a year and a half, two years ago?
Tom Grover: I think. Probably get a marketing process down and, and stick with it. You know, one of the things we did is, is we threw out some marketing. We go, oh, now we're busy. And so we quit marketing. And then when it got slow, I called Cameron, Hey, I, I gotta send something.
Tom Grover: And well, you know, then it takes a little bit to get that going again. And, and so it's like being consistent with the marketing. Um. Uh, trying to keep, keep things in the forefront. Don't wait until it's, uh, you know, a slow day and then say, man, I wish I had more, more cars in the door. Um, but you put together a campaign and, and some of it's just to keep out there in the forefront of, of people's minds.
Tom Grover: And, um, something we're, we're playing with a little bit for, for next year. Um. Two more areas we're gonna focus and use direct mail in. One is we're gonna put together something that's associated directly with the community. So with like a, a calendar of events on there, something that they're gonna take and put on the refrigerator to remember those, those, uh, schedules.
Tom Grover: Um, and that can go out direct mail. And the other thing is we just started doing tires and so we're gonna use, uh, direct mail to, to get our name out there as far as doing tires. So there's different times. Um, but you know, don't wait until there's nobody coming in the door to, to really do it. Just kind of put together, plan on, you know, Cameron knows that right now I'm planning on the end of this year, there's gonna be a couple of, of, uh, pieces going out and so that's
Jimmy Lea: That's, that's very cool. That's very cool. Uh, uh, Tom, I'm looking forward to seeing you here at the Mars Conference because, uh, we'll take this up to the next level here, helping you to refine your marketing program, your marketing plan. Uh, thank you for coming down here because it's gonna be a lot of fun.
Jimmy Lea: So we're gonna, we're gonna land this plane here now, and Cameron go to you first and then Tom to you, and then we'll land the plane to, uh, Cameron. What is something. What is a concept that you wished automotive shop owners understood about marketing? Like if you had a magic wand, you could wave it and everybody would understand about marketing.
Jimmy Lea: Tom could have said it better.
Cameron Ritter: Consistency. Consistency. Consistency. Consistency. Um, that's why, like Tom said earlier, give me two months at least. I mean, that's, that's bare bones minimum. Just gimme that. Um, but I mean, I've got shops that have been mailing with me for four years straight. Um, and so, and they stay consistent and as it's just like your Google ads, right?
Cameron Ritter: You wouldn't just turn your Google ads off, then turn it on and off and on. It's just like your website. You wouldn't do that either, right? Postcards are the same way. All your marketing's the same way. And I guess the other part of that, um, would be to have these two different types of marketing push pull.
Cameron Ritter: Right. So push is gonna be like your direct mail. You're proactively reaching out to customers, trying to entice them to come into your shop. Pull is gonna be your Google Ads, right? You're getting customers that are in need of service right now. Like, Hey, I need brakes right now. Um, I'm gonna type in auto repair near me, or brakes near me.
Cameron Ritter: Um, have those two types of marketing in place because that's how you're gonna get the best results and stay consistent with both. Don't shut them off either. What I always suggest my customers to do if, 'cause I, I have customers call me all the time in the summer, summer months, Hey, I am slammed. I'm too busy, I can't take on another car.
Cameron Ritter: Okay, awesome. Look, let's not shut this off. Let's cut it in half or let's cut it down to a quarter. Let's, but it's like a, it is like a cruise ship, right? It's hard to get that thing going. And you get it going, it's going great. And once you stop it, it's hard to get it back going again. And so then, especially when you come into September, October, November months that are slower for a lot of shops, now we've gotta get that cruise ship back started up again.
Cameron Ritter: And that goes for all of your marketing. So stay consistent with it. Um, it will pay off and it will pay more than what you paid for it. It's an investment. It's not a cost.
Jimmy Lea: Oh, that's so true. So true. Thank you, Cameron. That consistency is so important, especially in marketing and when it's going well, you don't let your foot off the pedal.
Jimmy Lea: You don't let it off the gas. You should double down. That's fish when the fish are biting. Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Cameron Ritter: Get them in the shop. There's never a bad time to market fish. When the fish are biting. When they're not biting, guess what? Everyone pulls their lines outta the water. Put yours in, keep yours in.
Cameron Ritter: Keep yours in. Yeah, keep in.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah, uh, uh, I'll answer Evan's question real quick and then Tom will come to you, Evan, the question that you're asking about the billboards, uh, these two shops put a call tracking phone number on the billboards, and from that they knew how many people were calling, how many of them made appointments, how many of 'em came in to the shop and had services performed on their vehicles.
Jimmy Lea: Uh, and it was a staggering number. It was shocking. Uh, both, uh. Dan and Bill were shocked. They were both surprised that it was such a high number. Um, so that's the way you can track your billboards. Evan is with a call tracking phone number and you would think, oh my gosh, call tracking number. How are they gonna see that and call me from the freeway.
Jimmy Lea: Here they are going 80 miles an hour down the freeway. I don't know. They took a picture of it, they memorized it. I, I don't know, but they called. I, I know that's what they did, and it worked and it was shocking results. So. Evan, try it out. I'd love to hear the results you get from your billboard tracking efforts.
Jimmy Lea: That would be, that would be pretty awesome. Uh, and thank you Elena for putting information out there about the Mars Conference. If you wanna see Tom and shake his hand and uh, be part of the Mars Conference, we would love for you to come check us out. We are the institute.com. Go in there under the events, the Mars event, uh, marketing for automotive repair shops.
Jimmy Lea: You can meet Tom, you can meet myself. We'd love to have you there. Uh, because it's, it's gonna be a great marketing conference, one that just really is gonna elevate your marketing business. Now, Tom, the question I have for you as we close this out is, what does the future look like for Tom and Allright Automotive and Diesel?
Tom Grover: You know, we went through some major struggles these last few months. Uh, kind of, we were getting a lot of our processes done. We grew so much. We really started to focus on culture. And we did a big shakeup and, uh, you know, it cost us a lot. But you know what, when people show up to work now, they love coming to work and they love being able to, to contribute and have their voice heard in, in the things that we do.
Tom Grover: Um, communication's better than ever. Uh, and we're actually starting on the uptick. Um. Now, I mean, it's been a, a rough few months as we've gone through some change, but you know what? We have things in place and moving forward, so, but
Jimmy Lea: Oh, that's awesome. Good. Congratulations. The future is bright. You know, when you're lean and mean, you're a fighting machine, it sounds like you got rid of those bad apples and now you're ready to rock and roll.
Jimmy Lea: That's right. Nice. Congratulations. That's awesome. Well join us at the Mars Conference. All of you who are here, uh, we would love to have you there. Tom, thank you for joining. Cameron, thank you for joining. It is been a, a great conversation. Anytime I get to talk about marketing, I absolutely love it and I look forward to these opportunities.
Jimmy Lea: So to both of you, thank you.
Cameron Ritter: Thanks for the time, Jimmy.
Jimmy Lea: Yeah, absolutely. And, and for those of you joining us here, there's a, a 32nd commercial here at the very end. Pull out your cell phones, get ready. The QR code. Scan that QR code and you can get an appointment with my team, so we can talk to you about your business.
Jimmy Lea: We'll give you a little analysis of your shop and say, Hey, you know what? Here's one or two things that you could really do that will help move the needle for your shop, help you improve your process, procedures, help move your needle so that you can retain some more profit. That'd be great, wouldn't it?
Jimmy Lea: Uh, check us out. Also for the leadership intensive. We are coming to North Carolina in October, going to Blowing Rock North Carolina. For those of you don't know, that's Lucas Underwood's shop. He is hosting a leadership intensive at his shop and we are gonna be conducting that. It's a three day super awesome intensive leadership training.
Jimmy Lea: You definitely wanna be there for that. And those of you who have advisors that need some training, you are on the East coast. In December, we are coming to Atlanta, Georgia, Cameron, that's right down the street from you. We're coming to Atlanta, Georgia for a service advisor, three day service advisor intensive.
Jimmy Lea: We just finished the last one here in Ogden, Utah. We're ready now to do it again. We're gonna take it East Coast. So if you have a shop, you're East Coast and you have an advisor that you wanna take up from zero to hero. We can definitely help you do that in December. Look forward to seeing you there. My name is Jimmy Lee.
Jimmy Lea: Thank you for the time. I look forward to seeing you again soon at a conference or maybe even at your shop. I.
