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Announcements

No new episodes through December 2025—Episode 150 drops January 2026. Apple Podcasts and Amazon Music feeds are experiencing technical issues. Follow Matt on Instagram during the break.

Topics

Young Men's Advisory Board: The newly announced Young Men's Advisory Board is notable because five of its fourteen volunteer advisors are public influencers, signaling a potential shift toward valuing digital communication expertise in Church leadership.

Federalism in Church Governance: A Catholic parish in Dedham, Massachusetts, is defying the Archdiocese of Boston by maintaining an anti-ICE nativity scene. If a ward defied an Area Presidency this way, would Shawn's love of local government control apply to church governance?

Kratom Deaths in Idaho: Bonneville County has investigated six kratom-related deaths in 18 months. The FDA prohibits kratom, but Idaho law allows its sale. Is this federalism gone bad?

The Big Question: The Economist ranked the top economies in 2025—and the results defy simple "socialist vs. capitalist" explanations. Since ideology doesn't explain outcomes, is it morally appropriate to use labels like capitalist, socialist, or Marxist at all?

Chapters

00:00 Podcast Updates and Technical Glitches
02:51 The Role of Social Media in Content Creation
05:38 The Influence of Digital Content Creators in the Church
09:36 Local Control vs. Central Authority in the Church
17:57 Political Messages and Church Doctrine
24:57 Building the Kingdom of God
26:58 Federalism and Public Health
30:54 The Role of Federalism in Drug Regulation
37:33 Economic Ideologies and Their Impact
44:26 The Manipulation of Labels in Politics

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Matt’s got a Christmas tree, a Lenin bust, and a bunch of books and maps in his office. Shawn has buckwheat, stockings, and very strong opinions. In this episode, the Latter Day Lens mailbag explodes and drags us into some uncomfortable but important questions about what Latter-day Saints really worship and trust.

We wrestle with:

• Why so many women say they’d rather raise kids in Europe than in the U.S. (paid maternity leave, food, breastfeeding norms) — and whether “if you don’t like it, move” is a fair response.
• How laws that aren’t explicitly racist (like gerrymandering) can still leave people of color disadvantaged — and why Matt’s stopped calling policies “racist” even when they obviously hurt minorities.
• The heartbreaking rise in global child deaths as foreign aid shrinks: are American Saints more fired up about defending the unborn than feeding already-born, already-suffering children abroad?
• Whether the U.S. healthcare system needs more government… or way less. Matt and Shawn both shock themselves by landing on a radical free-market answer.
• The christening of the USS Utah nuclear sub and Spencer W. Kimball’s warning against worshipping the “false gods” of military might — is it spiritually sketchy for Saints to cheer for ever-bigger weapons?
• And finally, “limitarianism”: should government cap personal wealth at €10M in the name of justice… or is that just sanctified envy dressed up as philosophy?

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Holiday Cheer
02:39 Listener Mailbag and Community Engagement
05:48 Cultural Perspectives on Maternity Leave
08:38 Food Quality and Health in America
11:24 Racial Disparities and Voter Suppression
14:11 Foreign Aid and Global Health Concerns
17:18 The Role of Government vs. Individual Responsibility in Charity
20:03 Healthcare System Breakdown
22:55 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
26:22 Healthcare Economics: A Clash of Ideologies
28:36 The Role of Insurance in Healthcare
31:05 Free Market vs. Regulation in Healthcare
33:25 The Case for Unregulated Healthcare
37:23 The Impact of Regulations on Healthcare Costs
41:04 Military Spending and Moral Implications
47:56 Limitarianism: A Controversial Proposal
53:48 Final Thoughts on Wealth and Value

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Faith and Exceptionalism (03:21)

The US is becoming less religious, but Matt and Shawn debate if this signals secular decline or a unique American shift. Shifting Faith: Matt argues the decline of mainline Protestantism is due to its alignment with politics. He notes the growth of the Latter-day Saint Church and other faiths as people seek "pure religion," suggesting an "American exceptionalism" where religious freedom fosters a marketplace of faith. Awakening: Shawn challenges this, longing for the widespread "Great Awakening" revivals of the past, though Matt highlights current growth within the Church as a type of revival.

The Morality of Political Power Plays (15:07)

The hosts discuss Congressman Jesús "Chuy" García's maneuver to secure his staffer, Patty García, a seat by announcing his retirement after the filing deadline, effectively eliminating a primary election. Noblesse Oblige: Shawn calls the tactic immoral, motivated by arrogance or self-interest, invoking the concept of "Noblesse Oblige"—the privileged acting for the "less blessed." Kingmaker: Matt agrees the move is unethical but admits he'd be tempted by the "kingmaker" role, reflecting a common distrust in voters' judgment among the political elite.

Distrust and Discontent (25:39)

A Gallup poll shows extreme dissatisfaction with US democracy, especially among women aged 18 to 44, 40% of whom would move abroad—a fourfold increase since 2014.

The Problem: Matt argues this level of distrust risks undermining the divinely inspired US Constitution and suggests it is linked to policies from the last decade, such as those impacting women's healthcare access, which disproportionately affect their liberty. The Cause: Shawn believes the discontent is rooted in social media's self-esteem pressures and political "bamboozling," rather than actual legal disparity. Matt counters that a platform addressing this widespread unhappiness is crucial for future politicians.

Good, Evil, and Fictional Franchises (38:22)

Matt and Shawn analyze shared themes in Stranger Things and Wicked.

Becoming Good: Matt links this to the gospel principle of being "born again," arguing that true goodness is a transformation of the heart, not just the sum of one's actions. He uses a convert's powerful baptism story to illustrate the contrast between life's "bitter" cup and the "sweet" love of God. Representation: Matt praises the character Susie from Stranger Things as the best fictional portrayal of a Latter-day Saint in media.

Chapters
00:00 Friendship and Loyalty in Adversity
02:57 The Decline of Religion in America
05:45 Awakening and Spiritual Growth
08:38 American Exceptionalism and Religious Freedom
11:46 Political Morality and Ethics
14:34 Dissatisfaction with Democracy
17:34 The Nature of Good and Evil in Fiction
20:22 Cultural Reflections

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The Thought Provoker:

First this week. Idaho's government voted to sell 160 acres of state land near the town of Driggs. The land is currently leased to the Beard family, who use it for ranching. A billionaire owns land next to this property and may want to buy it. The Land Board voted 4-1 to move forward with the sale. Is it morally wrong for states to sell public land to the highest bidder?

Next up, Marjorie Taylor Greene has announced that she is leaving Congress, what does this mean?

Finally, The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) changed its website to say that vaccines might cause autism. Before, the CDC said there is no link between vaccines and autism. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is now the U.S. Health Secretary, and he personally ordered this change. Kennedy has made millions of dollars from his work against vaccines over many years. Many studies with over 5 million people have shown vaccines do not cause autism, but Kennedy says more research is needed. Doctors say this change is dangerous because it may cause parents to stop vaccinating their children. When fewer children get vaccinated, diseases like measles spread more easily. CDC scientists were not asked about this change before it happened. What could RFK Jr. do to persuade people that he is doing the right thing and not just looking out for himself?

The Big Question: MK-ULTRA was a secret CIA program that ran from 1953 to 1964. The CIA wanted to learn how to control people's minds and behavior. They tested drugs like LSD on thousands of Americans without telling them. The CIA used 86 universities, hospitals, and prisons to do this work. Many top researchers did not know the CIA was paying for their work. Here is the big question. Democracies require public disclosure of this kind of information so voters can hold elected officials accountable. But, when people find out about this stuff, they lose trust in government. This is one reason why private settlements have non-disclosure agreements. Should governments be allowed to settle cases like this and include non-disclosure agreements? Should they be allowed to keep this kind of information private?

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
02:57 Concert Experiences and Personal Growth
05:47 AI in the Workplace: Challenges and Perspectives
10:37 Public Land Ownership and Government Ethics
19:22 Marjorie Taylor Greene: Political Shifts and Implications
27:25 The Future of MAGA Without Trump
28:22 Balkanization of Political Factions
29:43 The Challenge of Political Institutions
30:45 Racism and the Republican Party
33:11 RFK Jr. and Vaccine Controversies
43:44 The Dark History of MKUltra
45:26 Government Secrecy and Accountability
50:57 The Role of Non-Disclosure Agreements

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In this packed episode, Matt and Shawn dive into the latest political and moral challenges facing the nation:

• The Republican Crisis: The conversation starts by analyzing the troubling election results for the Republican party and the unexpected demographic shifts moving away from Donald Trump. We discuss why Utah and Idaho remain the biggest exceptions to this trend, debating whether it's tied to regional economics or a deeper, post-assassination-attempt loyalty.
• The Immorality of Debt: Is it wrong for a government to spend money it does not have? We examine the shocking growth of the U.S. federal debt (now approaching $40 trillion) and explore why the prevailing economic theory dismisses this as a problem. This leads to a debate on political cronyism, asking if massive government contracts—like those awarded to Elon Musk and Rick Perry—are wasteful corruption or justified merit.
• Health, Prejudice, and Policy: The hosts tackle a major ethical question after the U.S. government directed visa officers to use common chronic illnesses (including obesity and diabetes) as a reason for denial. Is this an act of financial prudence or an unacceptable prejudice? We connect this policy directly to the foundational principles of American opportunity and the teachings of President Oaks on rising above bias.

Timestamp | Chapter Title

00:00 | Introduction and Personal Catch-Up (Weather, Mark, and Shawn's Grievance)
02:49 | The Hosts' Dialogue: Matt's Media Appearances and Mission Stories Talk
07:38 | Topic 1: The Republican Crisis, Voter Swings, and Trump's Last Holdouts
14:38 | Debating Trump Loyalty in Utah and Idaho
20:28 | Topic 2: National Debt, Morality, and Economic Theory
28:26 | The Crypto Debate: Financial Stability vs. Criminality
32:33 | Topic 3: Cronyism vs. Merit (Musk, Perry, and Wasteful Spending)
37:39 | The Milton Friedman Debate: Spending Other People's Money
42:55 | Topic 4: Health-Based Visa Denials and President Oaks on Prejudice (Includes Conclusion)

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Join hosts Matt, Shawn, and Melanie as they dive into complex, interconnected themes of freedom, power dynamics, and the difficult relationship between morality and economics.

The conversation starts by challenging the idea that freedom is simply the "power to make choices," drawing on the philosophy of Victor Frankl to discuss the unchangeable freedom of response that exists even in the most oppressive circumstances.

• The Economics of Immorality: The hosts examine the historical argument that slavery was a foundational economic engine for the US, using this as a moral challenge: How can we avoid turning a blind eye to modern immoral practices when they are economically beneficial?
• Morality vs. Policy: Does the looming expiration of Obamacare subsidies reveal a moral obligation to care for the sick and poor, or is it purely a political question driven by economics? The discussion sparks debate on whether government-created problems (like rising healthcare costs due to regulation) necessitate government-led solutions.
• Policing Intentions & Entrapment: A deep dive into the ethics of police sting operations (such as enticing a child over the internet), questioning the morality of punishing intent when no actual harm has occurred, and the effectiveness of focusing on "low-hanging fruit" versus systemic issues like sex trafficking.
• Debt and Latter-day Saints Culture: The hosts tackle recent data showing that high-Latter-day Saint-population states like Idaho and Utah have the highest debt-to-income ratios in the US.
  • Is President Gordon B. Hinckley's 1998 counsel to avoid debt and "live modestly" outdated in today's housing and economic climate?
  • Shawn and Melanie debate the role of the housing market, a culture of "keeping up with the Joneses," and generational spending habits (Millennials/Gen Z spending on luxury cars, travel, and phones) in driving up personal consumer debt.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Audio Quality Discussion
02:20 Power Dynamics and Freedom
07:09 Slavery's Economic Impact on America
10:13 Moral Questions of Agency and Economics
17:44 Healthcare: A Moral or Political Question?
32:52 Government's Role in Problem Solving
37:27 Morality of Law Enforcement Tactics
45:25 Debt and Financial Responsibility in Society
54:51 Generational Perspectives on Debt and Spending

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Welcome back to the Latter Day Lens! This week, hosts Matt and Shawn are joined by Marc to tackle pressing questions at the intersection of faith, economics, and emerging technology.

We dive into the listener mailbag to explore the concept of Consecrationism—the idea that a perfect system requires people to willingly share their property and excess—and whether it represents a "third way" that addresses the moral failings of Socialism and Capitalism. The discussion heats up with personal anecdotes on political shifts and a look at Matt's recent Deseret News op-ed.

Then, we transition to the rapidly approaching reality of Artificial General Intelligence (AGI). We analyze Matt's survey data on Latter-day Saint attitudes toward AI, defining the three major groups: the Silicon Saints, the Compartmentalizers, and the Spiritual Skeptics. We debate the spiritual litmus test: Is using AI for a talk or guidance a form of "lukewarm" seeking, or is it a valid tool for a divinely creative people?

Finally, we navigate two challenging ethical dilemmas:

1. Parental Loyalty vs. Justice: Should a father help his son evade police after a crime, or insist on accountability, particularly within a potentially flawed justice system?
2. Royal Justice: Did King Charles III stripping Prince Andrew of his titles represent a superior form of justice or merely an act of damage control and PR in the wake of the Epstein scandal?

This episode's key topics: Consecrationism, Capitalism vs. Socialism, Generous Capitalism, AI and Faith, AGI, Spiritual Skeptics, LDS Economics, Prince Andrew, Epstein Files, and the Ethics of Accountability.

Chapter Highlights (Jump to the Discussion!):

 00:00 Introduction and Welcome
 1:19  Mailbag: Consecrationism as the "Third Way"
 2:27 The Ethics of Wealth and Charity (Billie Eilish)
 3:00 Mark's Political Journey: From Marx to Capitalism
 3:50 The Deseret News Op-Ed & Voting: To Vote or Not to Vote?
 6:21 The Organized Intelligence Conference & LDS AI Survey
 7:22  The Three Tribes: Silicon Saints, Compartmentalizers, & Spiritual Skeptics
 8:16 The Litmus Test: Repenting to AI vs. Diligent Seeking
 14:03 Elder Bednar, Creation, and the Danger of Passive Ingenuity
 16:42 Justice Dilemma: The Ogden High School Shooting & Parental Loyalty
 25:27 Royal PR vs. Real Justice: Prince Andrew & the Epstein Files
 32:41 The AGI Utopia: Will AI Eliminate All Human Work?
 37:25 The Downfall of Technology: From Telephones to AI Erotica

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In this conversation, Matt and Shawn explore various themes including sibling dynamics, communication styles, the ethics of gambling, cultural perspectives on Islamophobia, and the moral implications of socialism versus capitalism. They also discuss the role of justice and mercy in the legal system, particularly in relation to presidential pardons and political loyalty.

The Thought Provoker:

First this week, Democratic mayoral nominee Zohran Mamdani delivered an emotional speech at a Bronx mosque, directly challenging what he called Islamophobic attacks, primarily from independent rival and former Governor Andrew Cuomo. Mamdani reacted strongly after Cuomo questioned his fitness to lead during a potential future "9/11," a comment that Mamdani claimed used veiled references to 9/11 and Islamic extremism. While Cuomo defended his remark by pointing to a past controversial comment by a Mamdani ally, Mamdani stressed that this language has made New York's Muslim population feel like outsiders. Cuomo later responded by accusing Mamdani of using a "dirty political trick" to divide the city. Should we be concerned about Islamophobia in the United States?

Next up.  A new poll shows that more than half of all Democrats have a positive view of socialism. Two-thirds of Republicans have a positive view of capitalism. Is one system morally superior to the other?

Finally. Record-setting mountain runner Michelino Sunseri was found guilty of a misdemeanor after spending just two minutes on a prohibited trail during his 2024 Grand Teton climb, where he set a new fastest known time (FKT). Sunseri, who had trained extensively, stated he left the switchback onto the restricted path, known as the Old Climber's Trail, to avoid casual hikers and possible injury, as he didn't want to yell for people to get out of his way while attempting the record. Is this an example of excessive government enforcement of the law?

The Big Question: Since taking office again, President Trump has granted clemency to over 1,600 people, including a blanket pardon for nearly all charged in the January 6th Capitol attack and various high-profile figures. These pardons often waived over $1.3 billion in victim restitution and fines and favored political loyalists, a pattern legal experts call unprecedented. Is President Trump's use of the pardon power morally wrong?

Chapters
00:00 Sibling Dynamics and Communication Styles
02:55 The Ethics of Gambling in Sports
05:47 Islamophobia and Religious Freedom
19:11 Debating Religious Doctrines and Their Implications
19:55 Religious Tolerance and Freedom
21:13 Socialism vs. Capitalism: Definitions and Perspectives
24:17 Moral Superiority: Capitalism vs. Socialism
29:09 The Impact of Economic Systems on Family Dynamics
33:19 Property Rights and Violence: A Philosophical Debate
39:42 The Principles of Socialism vs. Capitalism
43:36 Discretion in Law Enforcement
49:21 Pardons and Political Loyalty
55:24 Justice and Mercy in Politics

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In this episode, the Shawn, Levi & Matt discuss a range of topics including peaceful protests, the role of church leaders in political matters, the influence of the church on political views, and the concept of mobilization in revolutions. They also delve into the ethics of prediction markets, the nature of bribery in politics, and the intersection of science and spirituality, particularly focusing on the idea that all spirit is matter and the implications of dark matter in understanding connections between individuals.
The Thought Provoker:

First this week. Dallin H. Oaks was sustained as the new President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At the time of his call to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1984 he was on the short list of people who might have been nominated to be on the US Supreme Court. Justice Griffith argues that the work he can do to bridge the political divide in the US right now is more important than anything he might have done on the US Supreme Court. Many church members think that President Oaks was called at this time to help heal political divides in the United States. Is that a myopic viewpoint?  

Next up, In a recent episode, On Point with Meghna Chakrabarti explored serious problems with prediction markets. The biggest concern is that people can profit by making bad events happen. Since platforms avoid gambling laws, users have no protection when things go wrong.  Given the harms these platforms cause, should governments create more laws to regulate their behavior?

Finally, Accusations have surfaced that Tom Homan, set to be a border czar, was given $50,000 cash by undercover F.B.I. agents in exchange for promises of government contracts if Donald Trump won the election. Though Mr. Homan denies illegal actions, the Trump administration reportedly shut down the F.B.I. investigation. Should the US Congress or the Justice Department open an investigation into the allegations?

The Big Question: Doctrine and Covenants 131:7–8. 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; 8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. Physicists generally agree that dark matter is an invisible and hypothetical form of matter that makes up about 27% of the universe's total mass-energy content, significantly outweighing the ordinary, visible matter (which is only about 5%).

Chapters
00:00 Protests and Pep Rallies: A Lighthearted Start
02:52 The Role of Church Leadership in Political Divides
05:51 Mobilization and Influence: The 3.5% Rule
08:37 Political Stances and Church Doctrine
11:39 The Power of Defining Political Issues
17:20 Name-Dropping and Intellectual Influence
18:44 The Importance of Acknowledging Sources
20:15 The Ethics of Prediction Markets
21:14 Federalism and Gambling Regulations
24:58 The Role of Business in Local Governance
27:51 Personal Experiences with Prediction Markets
30:44 The Influence of Information on Market

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Hosts Matt and Shawn go one-on-one this week for a deep dive into global hot topics, a passionate debate on economic policy, and a philosophical search for truth. They start by reading a listener letter that perfectly sums up their conversational dynamic—sometimes frustrating, always engaging, and never boring!

🎙️ In This Episode:

• (00:34) Listener Feedback & The Matt Phenomenon: The hosts discuss a letter from a listener who admits they "frequently found [themselves] yelling" at Matt while listening. They explore why Matt's approach—sometimes saying things he doesn't believe just to spark conversation—is both polarizing and effective. Plus, a discussion of the Tom Hanks classic, Joe vs. the Volcano.
• (06:19) Peter Thiel's Antichrist Theory: The first serious topic is venture capitalist Peter Thiel's claim that the modern Antichrist will be a "technological Luddite tyrant" who uses fear of AI and global crisis to establish a one world government and an "unjust peace." Matt and Sean debate whether this aligns with the LDS concept of the spirit of Antichrist and the fear of a loss of individual liberties for a perceived greater good.
• (22:30) Argentina's $20 Billion Lifeline: The conversation pivots to US economic and foreign policy. The hosts discuss the US Treasury's purchase of $20 billion in Argentinian pesos. They debate the true motive behind the transaction—is it a legitimate bailout for a strategic ally to prevent a refugee crisis, or is it an unjustified transfer of wealth to protect the investments of US-based global financial firms like BlackRock?
• (32:35) Is World War III Inevitable? Drawing on analysis from the Council on Foreign Relations, Matt argues that changes in the global landscape (Russia's weakness, the BRICS alliance, and US inaction) mean World War III is already functionally underway and inevitable. Matt makes a bold case for the US to take a more aggressive stance, possibly even eliminating foreign nuclear capabilities. Sean challenges this "strike now" philosophy, questioning the risk and the true intent of rival nations.
• (47:16) The Big Question: What is Truth? Inspired by a scripture defining truth as "knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come," the hosts explore the nature of truth in a mortal life. 

Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Listener Engagement
06:01 The Antichrist and Modern Revelations
11:53 The Concept of Unjust Peace
19:01 International Relations and Economic Bailouts
27:23 Economic Challenges and Inflation in Argentina
29:41 Political Decision-Making and Leadership
31:15 The Russia-Ukraine Conflict: A New Phase
33:04 Inevitability of Global Conflict
36:14 Historical Context of War and Diplomacy
38:15 Military Strategy and Global Power Dynamics
40:25 Nuclear Threats and Military Action
44:58 The Nature of Truth and Knowledge
49:49 Faith, Repentance, and Eternal Truths