The Longing Lab

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Episode 32 Psychologist Nirit Soffer-Dudek explains maladaptive daydreaming, a clinical phenomenon where fantasy becomes a highly disabling and distressing addiction. She discusses fuels, triggers, treatments and why/how it’s often misdiagnosed.

Nirit Soffer-Dudek, PhD is an associate professor at the Department of Psychology at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, and a licensed clinical psychologist. Her research focuses on the clinical and personality correlates of consciousness states including dissociative states, nocturnal dreaming, and daydreaming. Prof. Soffer-Dudek is also a past president of the International Society for Maladaptive Daydreaming (ISMD) and the scientific director of the International Consortium for Maladaptive Daydreaming Research (ICMDR).

In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*What is maladaptive daydreaming and how it’s similar to an addiction (3:45)

*Why clinical psychologist and professor Eli Somer coined the term maladaptive daydreaming (MDD) to describe what many researchers had previously described as the personality trait of “fantasy proneness” (11:00)

*How MDD impacts a person’s ability to function in daily life (13:45)

*Literature and movies where MDD was illustrated before it was formerly coined (15:00)

*Fuel and triggers for MDD (22:00)

*Disorders people with MDD have usually been diagnosed as having have (also or instead) (26:30)

*Why, for people experiencing MDD, daydreaming is an itch you have to scratch (30:00)

*The difference between limerence and MDD (32:00)

*How MDD is different from PTSD that involves flashbacks (38:00)

*Common themes in MDD daydreams: idealized self, a sense of being wanted and taken care of, and elaborate sexual narratives (40:30)

*Therapeutic techniques that help: Self-monitoring, practicing mindfulness, and investing in one’s real life (42:00)

Quotes

“So, just imagine that you had this ability to watch TV all the time. You had Netflix in your head. It would be very difficult not to use it if you're not really interested in what's going on around you, or what's going on around you is causing you some anxiety. You have this internal button that you can press. Some people do press it actively, and some people say that it just comes to them without even actively trying to do it.”

“They feel shame, they feel guilt, they feel they can't achieve their goals. They feel so attached to their characters. It embarrasses them. They feel like they can't necessarily develop other meaningful relationships because they're too attached to these characters.”

“One of our studies showed that 70% of the people we interviewed who have maladaptive daydreaming also met criteria for ADHD, most of them the inattention only type.”

“It's not just a distraction. It’s not just imagining how you'll talk to your boss tomorrow about giving you too many shifts. It's something which is very creative. It's really deep in terms of the storylines. It's very intricate and fanciful, and people can really get into it for hours and hours.”

“Limerence doesn't have to be all about daydreaming. And maladaptive daydreaming doesn't have to be about an infatuation.”

“Among people who are trauma survivors that have maladaptive daydreaming, sometimes their daydreams are about trauma, but not necessarily the trauma that they had. And they're not necessarily in the same role or position that they were. For example, they could be perpetrators, they could be rescued.”

“It’s a normal phenomenon that has to be, not eradicated completely, but kind of mitigated back to its normal size, instead of being blown up and replacing your actual life.”

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Episode 31 Journalist Anna Goldfarb discusses the complexities of modern friendships, emphasizing the impact of social media on longing and the grief in losing friends who played specific roles in our lives. During a time when it appears we have hundreds of connections, she encourages readers/listeners to become wholehearted friends with fewer.

Journalist Anna Goldfarb is known as “the New York Times’ friendship correspondent." Anna’s reporting on friendships has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, and more. Her book, Modern Friendship, explores the nuances of navigating adult friendships. She also publishes Friendship Explained, a Substack newsletter that explains the mechanics of friendship through a pop culture lens. Find her online @AnnaGoldfarb.

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How social media compounds our longing for friends

*The longing we have to know our friends’ children

*Why it’s easier than ever to shed friendships with less social glue

*How her father’s reluctance to connect with a childhood friend just before he died inspired her to write this book

*The parallel between learning music and learning how to do friendship better 

*Why we grieve the role our friendships played at a specific time in our lives

*Why we live in unprecedented times where we have more bonds we’re expected to maintain 

*How the pandemic disrupting our routines changed how we do friendship

*How to change your invitation to friends be more about them and less about you

*The 14-Day Friendship Cleanse to becoming a whole-hearted (dedicated, committed and enthusiastic) friend

*How you figure out who belongs on your list

Quotes

“I've naturally taken a step back from social media because it's not helpful. It's not reality. Our we're not supposed to know this much about people in our outer rings of our social life.”

"It's just harder to find people, to have more enduring friendships, when your identity is so complicated."

“My dad didn't come to me very often with these kinds of personal problems, and I wanted to be his hero. I wanted to solve it. I wanted to reconnect them...He was so terrified of rejection, silence, if his friend would be mad at him…there was so much uncertainty, and uncertainty creates anxiety, so he never connected." 

“When you learn how music works, when you learn the notes, when you learn how to create music, I mean, it's a whole different way to interact with the art form, and that's what I wanted to do with this book. Here is how the music of friendship works. Here are the notes. Here's how it's arranged. Here's why things sound good or don't sound good. This is the human equivalent of sheet music.”

"Studies show we lose half our friends every seven years."
 
"I think where a lot of people they go wrong with longing for a friendship is they think, ‘What's in it for me?’ I think the miscalculation is, ‘What's in it for them? Why would they want to connect with you?’ And when you think of it that way, it's like ...'I really want to see them succeed. I really want to be a witness to their triumphs and see them overcome challenges.'...That's a different invitation then, ‘Let's meet for drinks, because I'm bored.’”

“Wholehearted friendship is my way to close the gap between the friend you want to be perceived as and the friend that you are in reality. I wanted to close that gap. The cleanse is is my strategy to get closer to those kinds of friendships.”

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Episode 30 Centenarian and University of Colorado Super Fan Peggy Coppom shares wisdom about love, friendship, and prayer through stories she shares about her twin sister, Coach Prime, and her faith in God. 

Since her family moved from the high plains of eastern Colorado to Boulder to escape the Dust Bowl in 1939, CU football mega fan Peggy Coppom has only missed three CU home football games. She and her late twin sister Betty attended over an estimated 2,500 CU sporting events in person in nine sports: football, men's and women's basketball, baseball, soccer, volleyball, track and field, lacrosse and women's tennis. Now Peggy is the one making history. This past fall Miss Peggy became the first FAN to receive an NIL deal. NIL, or name image likeness, allows athletes to accept money from businesses in exchange for using them in products or advertisements. CU Buffs Coach Prime (Deion Sanders) has become one of Peggy's biggest fans.

In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*Her relationship with her identical twin sister and their decision to dress alike 

*How Coach Prime has helped her deal with the grief of losing her twin

*What it felt like to be sung “Happy Birthday to You!” by the entire college stadium

*Her “secret” to longevity: moderation

*How she bounced back from breaking her hip and Covid this summer

*What she misses about Boulder from the past

*The importance of prayer and the prayers of your ancestors

*How her Irish-Catholic upbringing developed her love for football 

*Her relationship with Coach Prime & her Alamo Bowl plans

*What she’s still longing for

*Why FOMO kept her from moving to Florida to marry a beau

*How you know you’re in love 

Quotes

“She was still warm. She had just died. So, I whispered in her ear, and I said, ‘Betty,’ I shouldn't say this because it makes me cry, ‘We were together when we came into this world, and I'm here with you now.’”

“I felt so humble and so little and so amazed and blessed…To think that that many people were singing Happy Birthday, it makes me cry now. Undeserving, maybe is a good word for it.”

“Betty and I always said, ‘Pray and play.’ I think in one word I would say moderation…You can overdo anything. Even sleep, you can sleep too much. You can exercise too much. I have not set out to do that, but that's the way I've lived.”

“I miss going down Pearl Street and having home-owned stores of people you know, and businessmen that you know…The stores all were [owned by] people who lived here.”

"I don't think it. I believe it." (in reference to her faith in God)

“We were Irish Catholics, so naturally we cheered for Notre Dame…we knew when fall came and Saturdays came, it was football on the radio.”

“I don't feel like a lucky charm. I feel lucky.”

“I've had interviews ask me what one word I would use to describe him (Coach Prime), and [what] immediately came up to me [was] honorable.

“What I'm longing is for is for my kids to all be healthy and safe. And I pray for them mainly to get to heaven, at the age I am.”

“I never heard my mom and dad say a cross word for each other ever. And Betty and I both have said that was not a normal life for us to not ever hear our parents argue or anything. Because the first time my husband lost it, and it wasn't over anything I did,…I found out that somebody can lose their temper, and they're not going to get a divorce.”

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Episode 29 Steph Hauser shares the miraculous birth story of her son Zev, born at 23 weeks (halfway through Steph’s pregnancy) with a 1% survival rate, and the difficult choices they faced. She explains how her "Tell me what's good" strategy helped them find hope and the organizations they began to support NICU families.

Steph Hauser is a writer, podcaster, ultrarunner, and the founder and Executive Director of 4those, a nonprofit dedicated to providing hope, healing and possibility for former micropreemies and their families. This year, she ran 14.7 miles for 147 days (in a row!) to raise money for and bring awareness to the journey many families endure in the NICU. Her story has been featured in Runner’s World Magazine, local and international news outlets, and on a variety of podcasts and stages. Steph is also the host of The Zev Project, a podcast that shares her own journey around extreme prematurity, including the “Tell Me What’s Good” strategy that carried her through their 147 days in the NICU. Steph co-owns FOX•DOG COFFEE with her husband Ben and lives in Louisville, CO, with Ben, their dog, and their four boys. Learn more at 4those.org

In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*Why longing as an anchor to your past 

*How this pregnancy was different than her first (even before delivery)

*Chorioamnionitis, the intraamniotic infection she had

*How do you define viability

*How “Tell me what’s good” approach helped create a fuller narrative 

*Miracle guilt

*The important role surrender played in their situation

*How Zev’s micro-prematurity miracle has shaped their family dynamics

*How their organization 4those.org serves families in the NICU

*Why she ran 14.7 miles for 147 consecutive days 

Quotes

“Longing for me in that season with ZEV created a great foil for us to sort of look at what we were tying ourselves to past, present, future. What we saw, what we wanted, what we were hoping for…[Longing] joined and partnered with surrender.

“We went from a 0% chance survival to helicoptering down to a hospital where we were given a less than a 1% chance of survival. So, it's not like we suddenly had all these great odds in our favor. However, there was a spirit at this hospital that just said, ‘Hey, we don't know what's going to come. You've got a less than 1% chance here, but do you want to take it now?’”

“We were given the chance, and so we decided to take it and that baby, at 23 weeks gestation, came out of the womb with no lungs, and the first thing he did was cry. This little human just came out and just proclaimed to the world that, against all odds, he was here, and he was fighting.”

“The doctor turns to us, and she's crying, and says, ‘Your son is dying, but he's in there and he's fighting.’”

“It was believing that whether ZEV lived, died or never, never, never, that whatever happened, love or God, however you identify it, would come through, would walk beside us in whatever road came.”

“There were times in the NICU when [my husband and I] were just floating on separate life rafts in the same ocean, like we were tied together by a string on separate life rafts, experiencing our own things, our own pasts are coming into play.”

“If you asked my husband, he would say that God felt very quiet in that time, that God was not very close in that season. And for me, I felt like it was like a front row seat to watching miracles happen all over the place in there…we watched our child be stitched together into humanness.”

“Instead of running away from the hard thing, it brought all pieces of it to the forefront for me, the good, the bad, the glory, the struggle, the grief, you know, the joy all of it. It was like, instead of running from the big, hard thing, I was running to remember it.”

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Episode 28  Psychiatrist and mindfulness research leader Dr. Jud Brewer explains the neural mechanisms of longing (i.e. romantic obsession) and the differences between excitement (contraction) and joy (expansion). Brewer discusses how mindfulness training reduces cravings and anxiety to help individuals manage their habits and emotions.

Jud Brewer MD PhD is the Director of Research and Innovation at the Mindfulness Center and professor in Behavioral and Social Sciences and Psychiatry at the Schools of Public Health & Medicine at Brown University. Brewer is an internationally known expert in mindfulness training for addictions. He has developed and tested novel mindfulness programs for habit change.  He has also studied the underlying neural mechanisms of mindfulness using standard and real-time fMRI and EEG neurofeedback. Brewer is a New York Times best-selling author of Unwinding Anxiety, The Craving Mind, and The Hunger Habit.  Learn more at https://drjud.com/

 
In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*How longing activates the self-referential default mode network in the brain (especially the posterior cingulate cortex)

*The trigger-behavior-reward pattern (the explore/exploit survival mode), and how it relates to finding a romantic partner

*The difference between contracted excitement and expansive joy

*Intermittent reinforcement that keeps our brains on the hook of uncertainty

*Unconditional love (supportive, solid, connected) compared to infatuation (excitement, anticipatory)

*The link between the deactivation of the default mode network and experienced meditators

*Why curiosity (nonjudgement) is our superpower when it comes to breaking bad habits

*How negative prediction error leads to disenchantment with behavior

*Why worrying gives us a false sense of control 

*How mindfulness improves certain eating disorders

*Hedonic hunger (food associated with emotions)

Quotes

“Longing is a slow want.”

“The more obsessed somebody was with their partner, the more activated a particular region in this [default mode] network was.”

"Dopamine shifts from learning, ‘Oh, this is a good food source,’ to becoming this motivation molecule, which is often how it's described in the addiction field. It drives us to go do something once we've learned that it is something ‘desirable.’”

“A lot of coiling action happens when we're obsessing over somebody, or we're thinking how great the last date was, or we can't wait until the next date. There's that anticipation that coils and coils and coils. And it can be excessively coiled with things like instant messaging and texting, where we don't know when the next text is going to come. We don't know what it's going to say. There's a lot of uncertainty that gets our brain all wound up.”

“I think often people mistake excitement for happiness, because there's that 'I'm alive' quality of experience that comes with it.”

“Curiosity, first off, feels more expanded than contracted…Instead of being identified with [the obsessive thought] or caught up in worry, [people] can get curious and replace that unhelpful habit that leads to contraction with a helpful habit of being curious or even being kind to themselves if their habit was to judge themselves.”

"Just bringing awareness in and seeing that [worrying] is not very rewarding helps us become disenchanted with the behavior.”

“We don’t need to be meditating to be mindful. It’s about being in the present moment and being curious.”

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Episode 27 Feminist author Elissa Bassist discusses her experiences with longing while warping her voice in academia, relationships, and medical settings. She shares her two-year journey with physical pain misunderstood and dismissed by many doctors and how it highlights the internalized patriarchy that leads women to suppress their voices.

Elissa Bassist is the editor of the “Funny Women” column on The Rumpus and author of Hysterical, a semifinalist for The Thurber Prize for American Humor. As a founding contributor to The Rumpus, she’s written cultural and personal criticism since the website launched in 2009. Her next book, INSIDE JOKES: A Comedy and Creativity Guide for All Writers, is coming in 2026. Learn more about Elissa's writing and courses she teaches at www.elissabassist.com

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How patriarchy has taught women to suppress their voice

*Her journey trying to find a diagnosis for her physical pain

*How medical community makes it difficult to acknowledge sexual violence

*Learning to love her voice 

*Why she is learning to ditch men who think she’s asking for too much 

*Her new book, Inside Jokes, with Caitlin Kunkel

*Advice she has for women on reclaiming their voice

Quotes

"Longing is obsessive liking that feels like love but isn’t because it’s one sided. It feels like this encompassing feeling that completely hijacks every other feeling and thought. It feels like a virus."

“I was further diagnosed with an obsessive fear of saying the wrong thing that made me compulsively edit, censor and silence myself, and that had manifested into physical pain. And I was like, 'That sounds like magic!' And then the more research I did, the more I saw that repressed emotional pain can become physical pain. We can make ourselves sick. So, in getting my voice back, I was in less and less pain.”

“I first actively remember suppressing and warping my voice to get this one particular boy to love me back. And with your voice goes your personality, your identity, your sense of self, your agency, your independence. There's so much wrapped up in voice…It seemed like just something easy to do that would get him to love me, and it did not work. It just ended up making myself sick, ultimately."

“Longing is so generative. And one of my students just told me recently, a crush makes you creative. And I was like, oh yes! That's why I feel like it lights me up. It makes me feel alive. It's my best writing. I learned to write because of this person. I also learned to lose my voice because of this person.”

“I just wanted to play this game, to never have the game end, but I still wanted to win the game, and I wanted to prove to myself and everyone else, and to him especially, that I could win him. But at the same time, he was this unwinnable object.” 

“Pain makes you so desperate for definition that you'll take any definition. When I got this definition of 'shredded cervix…like you have given vaginal birth,' I was like, 'Oh my God! …. I can now tell people what had happened to me.'”

“It got to a point where, when nobody else believes you, you stop believing yourself. So I finally had this acknowledgement, which was also proof.”

“I feel like when you're longing, you're hoping someone's gonna make you whole… And once you win, you can finally accept yourself. And you're never going to get that from longing…There's no reward. There's no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow because there is no end.”

“I just want people to be crazy, be dramatic, be emotional, be too much. I feel like the lie that we have been fed just benefits people who aren't us, and that we have to stop shrinking ourselves, making ourselves the smallest people in the room.”

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Episode 26 Alex Stewart, the influencer behind the hit podcast Swipe Fat, discusses how body shaming shapes romantic longing, the polarizing use of words like “fat,” the impact of weight loss drugs on the body positivity movement, and why you should never wait til you're X size to do something.

Alex Stewart is an influencer and the voice behind the Instagram and TikTok account, Sassy Confetti. She is a proud Chicagoan who tries to inspire her audience to get out there and try new experiences, eat new foods and be bold in their lives and style! She has been featured as a style expert in InStyle and done speaking engagements for The BodCon, Fox News 12, NBC's Chicago Today and more. She is also the co-host of the podcast Swipe Fat about dating while plus size. Her podcast has been featured in Huffington Post, The Washington Post, and the New York Times as a podcast that is breaking barriers for size inclusivity. Learn more at sassyconfetti.com

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

* Generational patterns of perfecting one another

*Reclaiming the word “fat” 

*How body shame shapes romantic longing 

*How women self-sabotage dating situations

*The importance of in-person connections

*Her experience losing her virginity

*Why not to say, "I'll do it when I'm thinner."

*Decisions around diet drugs like Ozempic and the fear of being seen a hypocrite

*How she uses her platforms to support plus-size women and what she's learned from followers

*Advice she has for men dating plus-size women

Quotes

“I think for plus sized women too, we don't want to look lazy…there's this other perfectionism. My makeup needs to look perfect. My hair needs to look perfect. I need to look cute. There's this hyper femininity aspect of it, where you want to present yourself as perfectly as possible, so that people can't pick you apart because you have this one thing that's not socially acceptable. So how do I make sure that the rest of me is like, perfect?” 

“How do you how do you let someone in enough to trust them to see my body and not judge me?”

“I've definitely gotten myself in situationships since, and a lot of those are long distance…it's just easier to let someone in if they aren't near you, which is so weird, because it's a slow burn. They edge their way in, and all of a sudden, you're like, wait, no, I like you and I'm sad you’re not here.”

"It's either like picking people that aren't available or picking people that they don't really like but they think ‘This is what I'm capable of,’ or ‘I only think I can deserve this.’”

“Why are we waiting for when? When you are yourself right now, it really doesn't matter what size you are. You can have all those things at any size or any part of your journey…Just because places aren't built for us, doesn't mean that we can't take up space in them.”

“When I was growing up, if you had given me a magic pill that had made me the size that I wanted to be, I would have taken it. And so now, to be presented with that option, and have done all this work to mentally feel like I'm worthy and like I am fine in this…To now have this onslaught of people just talking about it incessantly is very difficult. I have to have this mental journey with myself every day to be like, ‘You are fine the way you are. You do not need these drugs. It's not going to fix you.’”

“I think, unfortunately, most women feel like they're not going to meet someone because they're not good enough or pretty enough, or whatever. I think we see that even more so with fat people because we're consistently told through the media and through society that we aren't good enough and that we would be enough if we were smaller.”

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Episode 25 Neuroscientist and owner of Livingwithlimerence.com Dr. Tom Bellamy explains what is happening in the brain when one experiences limerence, what makes it scientifically so difficult to disrupt, and strategies to practice to stop limerence

Tom Bellamy is an academic neuroscientist and Associate Professor at the University of Nottingham in the UK. His research involves studying the fundamental mechanisms of the brain (the nuts and bolts of synaptic signaling), but he also writes about how this fundamental neuroscience can make sense of the experience of limerence. He has blogged at Livingwithlimerence.com for seven years under the pseudonym "Dr L" but has now decided to step out of the shadows with the publication of a new book "Smitten" that summarizes everything he's learned about limerence over the years.  

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…
*When limerence can become a dysfunctional behavior

*Limerent Limbo 

*Three elements required for a person to fall into limerence: 1) someone who provokes the glimmer in you, 2) some hope for reciprocation and 3) uncertainty

*The statistics on limerence based on a random survey of 1500 people (~60% said they had experienced limerence)

*Why he started writing his blog seven years ago that has now attracted over 120,000 views a month

*Three brain systems that are interrelated: Arousal system, reward system, bonding system 

*The disenfranchised grief felt during limerence

*Why he’s skeptical of limerence just stemming from childhood trauma

*Personality traits in LOs (i.e. narcissism, avoidant, dismissive) that might generate uncertainty in a relationship and thus making one more likely to develop limerence 

*Mental tasks to get out of the altered state of mind of limerence (undo the reward training, to diminish the strength of the reward that the LO has for you)

*The importance of developing purposeful living goals to give you a sense of hope and optimism re: the future

*What makes people more psychologically vulnerable to limerence (anxious attachment, ADD, unhappiness)

*Why to consciously dismiss the positive anchor memories with you LO and focus on the negative ones

 Quotes

“Limerence is an altered state of mind defined by intense romantic infatuation—an intense desire to bond emotionally with this other person that becomes the consuming obsession of your life.”

“It’s not really about desire for an actual person, but how they can play a role in your romantic story. A lot of people aren’t really clear how this person would be able to satisfy this unmet craving.”

“If that state of uncertainty lasts long enough, you can get caught in this altered state of person addiction. Once you’ve passed that point, it’s very difficult to get back.”

“Being happily married isn’t necessarily protection against new limerence.”

“I was having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of deep love for my wife but limerence for someone else.”

“I think it helps when you understand there are predictable ways that these (brain) circuits can be driven into overdrive and result in this altered state.”

Re: social media “The limerents are continually trying to get some kind of feedback from their limerent object but being tortured by this uncertainty. You get into that pattern of behavior where you are constantly seeking reward, but that reward isn’t coming predictably, so you get stuck in that mental trap.”

“How strongly you feel limerent for another person is almost no prediction for how good a long-term partner that person is going to be for you.” 

“If your goal is to form a loving relationship, then don’t go for people who cause limerence in you.”

“You don’t get over an addiction by taking more of your intoxicant (CBT exposure therapy).”

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Episode 24 Travel expert and writer Pauline Frommer illustrates how travel experiences have made her a better seeker, the importance of appreciating the ephemeral moments in travel, why the holy grail of travel is finding one’s soulmate, and the future of the travel industry with AI. 

Pauline Frommer is Co-President of Frommer Media LLC with her father, travel legend Arthur Frommer. They publish the Frommer’s guidebooks, now in their 65th year, with over 75 million books sold so far. Pauline was also the original editor of Frommers.com, one of the first travel sites on the web. It, too, is part of Frommer Media and receives over 12 million page views per month. Pauline is the author of countless articles, and a number of award-winning guidebooks, including Frommer’s New York City Day by Day and the upcoming Frommer’s New York City 2024. In addition to writing, editing and publishing, Pauline was the host of a nationally syndicated radio show on travel for over 20 years. She currently hosts the Frommer’s Travel Show Podcast, named one of the 13 best for travel by the New York Times. Pauline is married to Columbia University professor Mahlon Stewart, and the mother of two very well-traveled daughters.

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*How longing relates to searching for the meaning of life

*How her childhood traveling made her more of a seeker 

*Why the holy grail of travel is finding soulmates 

*How travelers set themselves up for disappointment

*Her perspective on influencers and how they sell their soul

*How AI is stealing travel journalists’ work

*Her love advice for her daughters & how it relates to travel

*How both a person or a place can grow on you when you explore it more deeply

*Why guidebooks can’t be replaced by influencers or AI

*The trip she took she considers the most serendipitous

Quotes

“Longing is the exception not the rule. Longing brings us back to the fundamentals.”

“I have déjà vu wherever I go, but I can’t really know if I’ve been a place before.”

“I think when you’re younger you think that each experience leads to another. That you’re building something…But I’m also seeing, at this advanced age, that there are different moments in life. When you travel, everything is momentary.  Everything is transitory. Everything is a mirage. If you just embrace the temporariness of it, it can be profound.” 

“In order to get the free travel (influencers) are hired hands who have to gush about everything and they can’t necessarily tell the truth…By some estimates, one in every ten human beings on earth work in travel. So, there are massive corporations that are hiring these influencers and paying them a penance to replace the marketing departments they used to have. To me it seems really kind of devious on the part of these big businesses."

“I think it’s important not to come to a place blindly. You get more out of travel when you read books about a place…When you really dig into it, then you’re more surprised by the place."

“When you use your phone to research a place, about 50% of what you get is disguised marketing.”

“If you can get past status and how luxurious a place is…If you can look at the fundamental reasons for travel, rather than the superficial ones, I think you’ll have a more fulfilling trip.”

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Episode 23 Social psychologist Ellen Langer, AKA the "mother of mindfulness," explains why our perceived sense of control impacts our mental health, how longing and regret are mindless, why there are no good or bad decisions, and her new book, The Mindful body: Thinking our way to chronic health.

Dr. Ellen Langer, AKA the “mother of mindfulness,” is a social psychologist and the first female professor to gain tenure in the Psychology Department at Harvard University. She is the author of twelve books and more than two hundred research articles written for general and academic readers on mindfulness for over 45 years.  Dr. Langer has written extensively on the illusion of control, mindful aging, stress, decision-making, and health. Among other honors, she is the recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship, The Liberty Science Genius Award, and the Staats award for Unifying Psychology. She is the founder of The Langer Mindfulness Institute and is a gallery exhibiting artist. Learn more here: Ellen J. Langer (harvard.edu)

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*The difference between mindfulness and meditation

*How and why people try to change their romantic partners

*Impact of mindfulness on satisfaction in a relationship

*Why perceived sense of control results in mindfulness which results in better health

*The illusion of the illusion of control

*How she recommends making a decision and why regret is mindless

*How to raise children to be more mindful

*The key characteristics of mindfulness and mindlessness

*The mindlessness of hookup culture

*Abundance versus scarcity mindset 

*Her new book: The Mindful Body: Thinking our way to chronic health

*How our sense of perceived time impacts healing

Quotes

“When we know we don’t know, everything becomes potentially interesting. When you don’t know, and you are actively noticing new things, you couldn’t be happier. You aren’t longing for something tomorrow, because today you are experiencing the most you can experience.” 

“Hope is much better than being hopeless. But hope has built into it an expectation of failure.” 

“When you’re actively noticing them (your partner), they feel seen....If you’re both doing this at the same time, the relationship may stay newer for a longer period of time."

"What you’re always in control of is your response to whatever situation you’re met with…The situation is neither good nor bad. Stress is not a function of events. It’s a function of the view you take of the events. And you always have available to you multiple views."

“Decision making is probably the biggest stressor. There is no right decision. What people should do instead, this is wild, randomly decide what to do and then make the decision work for you. We make a decision to take some action. Once you take the action, you can’t access the quality of the decision."

"Given that you can’t compare them (the outcomes of different decisions), for people to experience regret is mindless."

“If we get rid of the idea that there are certain things that are bad and other things that are good and that I have to worry about making the right decision so I can maximize the good and minimize the bad, life is just easy.”

“We are brought up believing that there are good and bad decisions, and that also means there are good and bad deciders.”

“When you’re not in the moment, you’re not there to know you’re not there.”

“To desire a meaningless experience doesn’t make sense to me and it sounds mindless."

“I don’t think we should do anything that feels meaningless. Even brushing your teeth. Be there!”

“Everything is mutable. And the degree to which we can achieve the things we desire, that we long for, is not a big step away. It’s all within our reach.”