The Longing Lab

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Episode 22 On May 9, 2023, five-year-old Sidney Mae Olson was struck and killed by a truck in a cross walk. Her father, Eric Olson, discusses the longing that transpired following her death and what he’s learned about himself, his relationship with his daughter, and the interconnectedness of everything. 

Eric Olson is an advocate for vulnerable road users like his daughter. Eric is President of the Sidney Mae Olson Rainbow Fund, which he co-founded with his wife Mary Beth Ellis to create safer, more livable communities for families. Their work to drive change while navigating grief has been featured in the media and has inspired a growing community known as “Sidney’s Rainbows.” Eric is a long-time software company leader and a dedicated supporter of his wife’s professional triathlon career. He is an avid cyclist, trail runner, and skier living in New England with his wife and 3-year-old son Ellis. #livelikearainbow

Learn more about donating or volunteering at https://www.therainbow.fund/

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How he reframed his loss and developed a new relationship with his daughter
*How his relationship with his wife has been shaped by this tragic event 

*The power of EMDR therapy in helping him process the events of the day

*The significance of rainbows in their organization, Sidney’s Rainbows

*Advice for someone with a friend who is grieving the loss of a child

*How the event galvanized their parenting style with Ellis 

*How and why they developed the organization Sidney’s Rainbows

*Statistics highlighting pedestrian deaths caused by traffic

Quotes

“I long for a different kind of relationship with my daughter.”

“There are moments in life that change your perspective with everything. That was it for me.”

“My mind works forward not back. It was less yearning for what we had and more what we hadn’t had yet. You realize you’ve lost the moments that you never get to have. We were a week away from kindergarten orientation."

" There’s the saying, ‘You can never swim in the same river twice’ cause it’s always flowing….I’ve thought a lot about that since. How do we maintain that flow forward and connectivity with Sid in a different way."

"Your mind naturally wants to fix things. You can be taken down with that.  Or if you choose to look it as a lesson—that we control nothing—then you can see it as an opportunity to let go of some of those things. What I can control is my internal world."

“It feels like I’m building a relationship with her where she still surprises me, which she did a lot. One of the things I loved about her was  that she was always wanting to surprise other people and delight them. The morning I left, she left a note and a flower on my desk."

 “She’s not gone, she’s just here in a very different way.”

“Her spirit is part of us. When we make a decision, we are very much consulting with Sid…I talk to her all the time.”

“You don’t have to do anything. You just have to show up. That’s hard for me. I’m such a fixer. A lot of what I do for my job is problem solve all day. In situations like this, I realized, in the past, I was looking for ways to fix it. If I couldn’t fix it, (I thought) I shouldn’t be involved."

“There are 42,000 traffic deaths a year. I think we just think of that as the cost of our transportation system. But if you look at other places around the world, that is not the case."

“Hoping that our story can help drive change to reduce traffic deaths and inspire people to know you can get through more than you think.”

“Notice it. Name it. Feel it. Let it flow.”

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Episode 21 Psychologist and mind-wandering researcher Dr. Giulia Poerio shares recent research describing characteristics of limerence, who might be predisposed to it, and potential techniques that help alleviate limerent thinking. Due to the lack of understanding of limerence in clinical communities, she describes how it is often misunderstood or misdiagnosed. 

Dr Giulia Poerio is a Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Sussex in the UK. She has broad research interests and has published widely on mind-wandering, emotion, sleep, imagination, and ASMR. She completed her PhD at the University of Sheffield where she explored daydreaming about other people and its emotional impacts. She then held 2 post-doctoral positions over 4 years. Her first was at the University of York on a grant researching the neural basis of mind-wandering and spontaneous thought. Her second was at the University of Sheffield on a grant researching the impact of the arts, imagination, and narrative immersion on wellbeing. Connect with Giulia here: https://profiles.sussex.ac.uk/p514955-giulia-poerio

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*Characteristics of limerence: hyperfocus, propensity to mind wandering, attention to detail, difficulty regulating thoughts, extreme sensitivity to rejection

*Potential predispositions to limerence: adverse childhood events, attachment styles, daydreaming, anxiety, depression, ADD and autism

*The importance of getting good sleep to regulate intrusive thoughts

*How limerence is similar to the initial stages of falling in love

*The potential benefits of CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and ACT (acceptance commitment therapy) 

*Is “no contact” the way to go

*The importance of finding a personalized approach to healing

*Misdiagnoses due to a the lack of understanding of limerence in clinical communities

*Whether unrequited love has to be a necessary condition for limerence

*How the LO often has qualities that you feel you lack, so people often feel like their LO’s are narcissistic

*How the uncertainty of hookup culture fuels limerence 

*Potential new areas of research 

Quotes

“In terms of romantic longing, it’s both ecstasy and agony…an anticipated loss.”

 “If you looked at a person’s semantic network (connections of meaning) between the limerent object and other things in their life, there’d be some hyperconnectivity b/t that person (LO) and absolutely everything else. You can relate to this when they’ve had a breakup, and everything reminds them of that person.”

“There are many ADD traits that could be linked to limerence: hyperfocus (ability to become absorbed in certain things at the expense of others), propensity to mind wander, difficulty regulating thoughts. These characteristics maybe don’t cause limerence but might make it more difficult.” 

“Of 235 survey respondents who said they’d previously experienced limerence or were currently in a limerent episode: 66.4% reported another mental health or neurodevelopmental disorder, the average number of limerent episodes were 7, average age was 33.90, average shortest episode was 15 months, average longest episode over 5 years, average age of onset is 17.”

“The fantasy fuels it, so if you poke holes in the fantasy (like disclosing interest to the LO), it takes away what keeps limerence going.”

“What I found really interesting from reading people’s descriptions of the kinds of fantasies they would have about their limerent objects was that, yes, there are elements of sexual reciprocation, but a lot of it is about wanting to be seen and to be loved and accepted.”

“If you are someone who gets absorbed in experiences and that’s fueling your limerence, find another outlet, one that’s less destructive.” 

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Episode 20 Professor and author Lisa Phillips discusses society's different expectations for genders in the pursuer/pursued template. In reflecting on her own story of unrequited love, she explains how she recognized what, not who, she really wanted. Phillips shares tips for satisfying the part of some of us that is always longing.

Lisa Amy Phillips is the author of Unrequited: The Thinking Woman’s Guide to Romantic Obsession. She’s written about relationships and mental health for The New York Times, The Washington Post, Psychology Today, and other publications. Her NYT Modern Love essay is titled, "I couldn't let go of him. Did it make me a stalker?" She teaches journalism and a class of her own creation called “Love and Heartbreak” at the State University of New York at New Paltz. She’s working on a new book titled,  First Love: The new realities of teen relationships and heartbreak, which will be out in early 2025. Learn more about Lisa on Instagram @lisaamyphillips18 

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*Boundaries: At what point is behavior stalkerish

*Varying versions of limerence

*Protest Response (coined by Helen Fisher) 

*Parallels between brain scans of people dealing with rejection and youth scrolling social media

*Why it’s so hard for young people to block people

*How social media capitalizes on obsession and grief

*Gender differences in unrequited love exhibited in history and literature 

*Filling our longing side (appeasing our hungry ghosts)

*Parenting the emotional awakening in young people

*How her relationship with her daughter inspired her new book on teen relationships

*Her ex-boyfriend’s response to her book and essay that involved him

*Research on rebound relationships 

*How reflection on unrequited love helped her recognize what, not who, she really wanted

Quotes

“Longing is a goal and a quest for change.”

“You always want to keep in mind that there’s another human on the other end.”

“The only thing that differentiates unrequited love limerence from mutual love limerence is the ending of the story.”

“We are struggling with the blurred lines right now when it comes to appropriate and inappropriate behavior online.”

“We have this culture where it’s a big deal for a woman to ask a man out. What does that say about the pursuer/persued template?”

“If you’re a longer, there’s always something inside you that’s a longer. But what you do with it, can truly transform….You can add to your repertoire of what you’re attracted to.” 

“If I’m not working in a way that fills my creative side, my questing side, my desire to discover and explore and write, then I becomes a little more vulnerable in a lot of ways.”

Re: advice for parents working with the teens: “Keep having the courage to express interest and communicate.”

“I had to fall apart to realize this very basic thing…You should want someone who is good to you.”

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Episode 19 Psychology professor and author Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor explains how our expectations encoded in the brain impact our grief when we lose someone we love (through death, divorce, or estrangement). She also illustrates why our brains have to learn over and over that someone is truly gone and why some people experience more intense, persistent and prolonged grief.

Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor is an Associate Professor at the University of Arizona Department of Psychology, where she directs the Grief, Loss, and Social Stress Lab. Her research focuses on the wide-ranging emotional responses to bereavement. Dr. O’Connor also studies difficulties adapting following the death of a loved one, termed prolonged grief. She believes that a clinical science approach toward the experience and physiology of grief can improve psychological treatment. Dr. O’Connor’s recent book, The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss has garnered praise from peers and literary critics alike.  Connect with Mary-Frances through her website 

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*The impact of time and experiences on the intensity of longing

*The grief metaphor of the missing table in a familiar room

*Why our brains continue to account for our predictions not being true anymore

*Why people avoid spaces after the loss of a loved one or a break-up

*The “Gone But Everlasting” theory: why it’s so difficult to learn that our loved ones are gone

*How our brains are encoded when we have a bonded relationship with someone

*How “Continuing Bonds” work after we’ve lost a loved one (dead or alive)

*Prolonged grief: why some people continue to revisit memories of lost loved ones

* The difference between wanting and liking and why someone might be more drawn to one feeling over the other

*The use of “Yearning in Situations of Loss” scale for those who experience bereavement, a break-up or homesickness

*The need for grief education among psychologists, psychiatrists and the general public

 Quotes

“The real world and our internal map of the real world sometimes don’t match up….There are tons of times when you walk into a room and your loved one should be there. The internal map of your world says, ‘My loved one will be there.’ But when they’re not and that expectation is so strong, we often have a very visceral reaction. 

“I’m not suggesting learning means forgetting….Having new experiences does not mean you are going to forget that close and important relationship you had in those places.”

“That encoding, that everlasting belief, is critical when our loved one is alive. That’s what keeps us returning to them. That’s what keeps us seeking them out…When our loved one dies, our brain still believes for a long time that they’re out there somewhere. It’s still reaching for them because it has a solution. And that solution is, ‘Go get them!’ But after a death or a divorce or estrangement, that’s not a solution anymore.”

“It is normal many years later to continue to talk about the person and have waves of grief. What is challenging is when those waves of grief (make you feel) like your current life has no purpose without this person. Or you don’t know who you are without this person. Or you feel estranged from the people around you because you feel bitter they haven’t had a loss and you have.”  

 “Our attachment relationships are as important to our survival as food and water…If someone hasn’t had water for a long time, they’re going to be incredibly thirsty and thinking about water all the time, but you’d never describe them as addicted to water."

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Episode 18 Psychologist and author Dr. Alexandra Solomon explains how our current low accountability dating culture fosters a collective attachment disorder which individuals sometimes mistake as a personal disorder. She provides practical actions individuals can take to foster a healthy relationship with others and themselves. Solomon also discusses how longing (or limerence) can be a defense mechanism in a culture with a low tolerance for frustration and high expectations for perfection. 

 Dr. Solomon is a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University, and she is on faculty in the School of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University where she teaches the internationally renowned course, Building Loving and Lasting Relationships: Marriage 101. Relational Self-Awareness is the through line in all of her work, particularly her hit podcast, Reimagining Love. In addition to writing articles and chapters for leading academic journals and books in the field of marriage and family, she is the award-winning author of three books, Loving Bravely, Taking Sexy Back, and her latest Love Every Day. 

Connect with Alexandra through her website 

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*How our current high ambiguity & low accountability dating culture is a collective attachment disorder 

*Self-abandonment that occurs during hookup

*Gut checks: questions you could ask yourself before hooking up

*The tendency to cut and run at the first sign of trouble: A theme she often sees in clients talking  about relationships

*Limerence as a defense mechanism 

*How social media impacts our expectations in relationships

*How our partner is a reflection of us and vice versa

*Relational self-awareness

*Three things that were present in your family growing up that you want to carry on & three things you don’t want to carry on

*How to calm the fear of settling 

Quotes

“I worry about people personalizing that which is systemic. Is it fair to say I’m anxiously attached when what I’m wanting is clarity and consistency in a connection with someone. Is that a disorder on my part, or is that a normative striving?"

“Low accountability dating culture is a collective attachment disorder. It’s a lot of people acting as if they could take you or leave you. There’s quite a bit of emotional gymnastics that one has to do to act like I don’t care when I really do, or I don’t need clarity when I really do. Because all of us need some measure of clarity of who am I to you? What are the boundaries and expectations?"

Re: hookups: “Acting as if it was meaningless or acting as if I can do this and not think twice about it is a kind of self-abandonment that I worry about.”

“If you pull someone near enough to you, they will disappoint you. But if you keep them at arm’s length, then they can stay perfect, and you can stay safe.”

“Someone isn’t a better lover because they have six-pack abs. Someone is a better lover because they are present and attentive.”

“The heart of a healthy relationship is an ongoing curious and compassionate relationship we have with ourselves so that we are noticing our own reactions.”

“I think often times somebody who is longing for a perfect relationship or perfect love, it is a defense against a fear of getting hurt….And by moving away from the longing and actually being willing to engage in a messy human-to-human relationship, I am telling myself that I’m pretty brave and strong and able to handle things that come my way.”

“Some of us fall in love and some of us step really freaking carefully into love…there are a lot of us who will never be swept off our feet…There are not better and worse ways to fall in love. There’s

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Episode 17 Sociology professor Dr. Lisa Wade takes a deep dive into the history and results of hookup culture on American college campuses based on her research. She reveals the unspoken rules of hookup culture and how the stalled sexual revolution contributed to hookup culture (and in turn young adults having less sex than their parents). 

Dr. Lisa Wade is an Associate Professor of Sociology at Tulane University. Dr. Wade's publication record includes work on college hookup culture, the sociology of the body, and U.S. discourse about female genital cutting. In 2017, she published American Hookup: The New Culture of Sex on Campus based on her research derived from 101 college students’ journals where they wrote about sex and romance on campus.  In the book, Wade maps out a punishing emotional landscape marked by unequal pleasures, competition for status, and sexual violence. She discovers that privileged students tend to enjoy hookup culture the most, and considers its effects on racial and sexual minorities, students who “opt out,” and those who participate ambivalently. 

Connect with Lisa through her website 

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*The pain, danger, freedom, and selfishness involved in hookup culture

*The rules of hookup culture

*How by the sexual revolution never succeeding in convincing society to value feminine traits it contributed to the creation of the hookup culture

*Why hookup culture is distinctly American 

*How the erotic marketplace and differences in religiosity and economics play a role in who can participate freely in and who is invited and valued into hookup culture 

*Why being called desperate is worse than being called a prude or a slut

*Virginity on campus

*What college students are longing for: genuine options

 Quotes

“Most of them (college students hooking up) have this desire for connection, for meaningfulness, for sex that feels  emotionally intimate—those feelings are thwarted by hookup culture and the lack of accountability and ambiguousness is sustained by everyone pretending not to care about each other or actively not caring about each other.”

"In America fun and being carefree is really tightly connected in our imaginations. But, in order to have sex where nothing you do can come back upon you and require you to take care of others, you have to have it be careless as well as carefree. This is a tricky thing to accomplish given that we know sex is often extremely emotional."

"You can flirt and be friendly before a hookup, but during a hookup sex should be hot but not warm. Extended eye contact, caressing, and slow kissing (traits considered feminine) is off script in hookup culture. Sex is supposed to be great but not sweet. 

“By far the most heartsick people in my research were a couple guys, a straight guy and a gay guy, who really desired to have emotional experiences and struggled to find them.”

“Students hookup less and have more criticism of hookup culture as they go through their college experience.”

 "When the daughters of the women who were young adults in the 60s and 70s got to college in the mid-1990s, they applied the logic that women’s liberation is the right to do anything men do. You apply that to sexuality and you get hookup culture."

 “There really isn’t a pathway for a relationship that doesn’t go through this hookup period." 

 “Hookup culture isn’t about hooking up with someone you like. It’s about hooking up with someone your friends are going to be impressed by. It’s about status.”

“If you have to jump into the deep end to have sex at all, then it makes sense that people are having less sex than before because it’s scarier.”

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Episode 16 Purity culture recovery coach Linda Kay Klein explains how difficult it is to shed the teachings of purity culture. Using her personal experience and those of the many women she interviewed for her book, Linda discusses how purity culture encouraged longing for a perfect mate, how repression of emotions manifests in our bodies, and how to develop an endoskeleton of sexual ethics.

Linda Kay Klein is author of Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free. Today, she is a purity culture recovery coach, and the founder and president Break Free Together, a not-for-profit organization serving individuals recovering from gender- and sexuality-based religious trauma. Linda has spoken around the world from various TEDx stages to The Apollo’s Women of the World Festival. Her work has been featured by over 150 outlets, including the New York Times, NPR, CBS, NBC, and Elle Magazine. Linda is a trained Our Whole Lives (OWL) sexuality education facilitator, and holds an interdisciplinary Masters degree in gender, sexuality and religion from New York University. Linda has one daughter in diapers and another in college. She is married to a writer and social change agent who inspires her every day. 

 
Connect with Linda through her website

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*Ways in which purity culture encouraged longing for an ideal partner

*How “Letters to My Future Husband” set women up for disappointment

*What is virginity and what is sex (what we count and what we don’t)

*How even after leaving the evangelical church, she couldn't escape purity culture

*How purity culture encouraged perfect performance for reward

*To be wanted but not savored

*Why and how she wrote her book Pure

*How she developed a formula to help others heal from purity culture

*How repression of her emotions manifested in her body 

*An exoskeleton versus an endoskeleton model of sexual ethics

*Forms of purity culture (not just Christian)

Quotes
“I had very specific expectations for what sex meant based on having grown up in purity culture…Not only was it penis and vagina, it was sex that was spiritual, deeply loving, and wildly pleasurable…with that man I’d been longing for—that perfect man, that forever man, that destined man.” 

"The whole time I was in purity culture, I was called a stumbling clock, a thing over which men and boys could trip. I felt like there were eyes on me all around assessing me, and I came up short."

“I would try to have sexual exploration with my long-term boyfriend, and I would break into tears. My eczema would come out from the stress, and I would be scratching until I bled. As we started to get anywhere close to having sex, I started taking pregnancy tests out of fear…”

"I no longer walk around with shame, fear, and anxiety…but it still lies there dormant waiting for it to be triggered." 

"As I’ve worked more on recovery work, I see it all the time: lots of back issues, lots of stomach issues, and other physical issues associated with repression of our emotions, choices and selves...those internal muscles tightening, saying, “Don’t let yourself come out!” 

"In order to have an endoskeleton sexual ethic, we need to have actual thought processes around our sexual decisions….and safe supportive places to talk about it with people who aren’t so ashamed they can’t look it square in the face." 

Resources mentioned:When the Body Says No by Gabor Mate and The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk

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Episode 15 Author Laura Carney reflects on how years of longing to belong restricted her, but learning to say, “yes,” to completing her late father’s bucket list, set her free from a false narrative. In this intimate interview, Carney discusses luck, spirituality, grief, true love, and trust. 

When author Laura Carney discovered her father’s bucket list 13 years after he’d been killed by a distracted teen driver, she decided she’d complete the list to honor him. What she didn’t understand was in doing so she’d learn to honor herself. The story became her recently published book, My Father’s List: How Living My Dad’s Dreams Set Me Free. Laura is a journalist and copy editor in New York. She's been published by the Washington Post, the Associated Press, The Hill, Runner's World, People magazine, Guideposts, Good Housekeeping, The Fix, Upworthy, and Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper. Her work as a copy editor has been primarily in magazines, for 20 years. 

Connect with Laura through her website bylauracarney.com

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*How she became an advocate for spreading the word on distracted driving

*How and why she “faked normal” while grieving her father’s death

*What the movie Back to the Future has to do with redefining the truth about our family and ourselves

*The timeline from when her father died to when she learned of the list to when she completed it

*Why her father’s absence at her wedding triggered grief all over again

*Why both positions (up or down) of horseshoes are different perspectives of luck

*Ways in which she felt she was being primed to complete the list years prior to learning it existed
*Why becoming a runner was one of the best things she ever did

*How committing to saying “yes” freed her

*The items on the list of 60 that were the most difficult to accomplish

*How her father’s list changed her sense of spirituality 

*How she kept meeting strangers who distinctly reminded her of her dad 

*How she relied on signs (often from strangers) 

*Her writing ritual and how the writing process went the way she needed it to go not the way she expected 

*Advice she has for people who want to accomplish a loved one’s last wishes 

Quotes

“I developed a difficult relationship with uncertainty, so I narrowed in on perfectionism.”

“The desire to be seen as normal, that was really all I wanted—all the time. I thought if you weren’t seen as normal, you weren’t safe. It was a longing to belong.”

“When I said yes to the list, my soul was saying yes, yes, yes. I saw my dad’s face in the back of my mind nodding and smiling.  I hadn’t had that kind of connection before.”

“I was avoiding the story I needed to tell because it was too difficult to tell. Saying yes to the list was the first step... As I learned to say yes, over and over again, I was letting go of the need to be accepted by other people—that longing...”

“If we have any part of our parents that we feel we can’t trust, it becomes more difficult for us to learn how to trust ourselves, especially when we’re in their shoes.”

“The person (my husband) fell in love with was the girl inside of me who is the real me, not the woman who had so many layers of insecurity, who had become conditioned by the patriarchy to become desirable, like I had no worth as a woman unless I was wanted.”

"There’s a difference between longing for something you don’t have because you want to fill an emptiness-- wanting that because it will make you feel better about yourself—that’s an ego pursuit. But feeling called to do something is different because that’s your heart calling you…When you trust your heart fully, you can’t get lost.

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Episode 14: Known in New York City circles as "The Wedding Doctor," Dr. Jocelyn Charnas describes how she helps clients navigate wedding planning and maintain the focus on their relationship/marriage while wading through decision fatigue, feelings of loss, and the unrealistic expectations set forth by social media.

Dr. Jocelyn Charnas is a clinical psychologist in private practice in New York City. She treats adults with depression, anxiety, interpersonal difficulties, relationship and adjustment problems, phase-of-life issues, and maladaptive behaviors. She works both with individuals and with couples at a variety of relationship phases including dating, engagement, marriage, divorce contemplation, post-marriage, and co-parenting. Dr. Charnas’ work has been published in several journals including Training and Education in Professional Psychology, GROUP, International Journal of Testing, and Psychotherapy Theory, Research, Practice, Training. She has been interviewed for The New York Times, Women's Health, Elle, Glamour, The Huffington Post, CBS.com, TheKnot.com, and Weddings Illustrated.

Connect with Dr. Charnas through her LinkedIn profile

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*How and why she started her business catering to brides and engaged couples

*The pitfalls of idealization that come with Pinterest and Instagram when wedding planning

*Normalizing the idea of disappointment and the inevitable letdown after the wedding

*How to keep the focus on the relationship and marriage during wedding planning 

*How to deal with decision fatigue and all the cooks in the kitchen during wedding planning

*How she teaches her clients to be critical thinkers and not get sucked in by marketing

*The mix of emotions at a wedding, an event that naturally involves loss

Quotes: 

“The attainable part (of longing) is what’s interesting to me because it makes longing an endless loop.” 

“This idea of perfection is baked into even the most fundamental primary concept of a wedding that it’s supposed to be the best day of your life. Even just that notion puts unrealistic expectations on it”

“It (social media) makes us feel that if we don’t achieve that beauty or perfection, not only are we failing, but we aren’t as good as everyone else who seems to be achieving it.”

“We have to throw out the idea that it’s possible to avoid disappointment…Feeling it is ok. It’s normal to feel deflation after any important milestone in our lives that we’re dedicating a tremendous amount of energy and emotion and time to.”

“This concept of the wedding as the goal or the end—think about how many fairy tales, Disney movies and rom-coms end with the wedding…when that’s such a distortion. The wedding is the beginning of a marriage and life together. I spend a lot of time with my patients trying to reframe it that way.”

“It’s impossible to please everyone, but when we zoom in and think about the things that please ourselves and please our partners and satisfy our needs it’s a smaller scope. It’s such good practice for marriage.”

"I spend a lot of time with couples to uncover and tune into what about the wedding is a representation of you two. That seems to help with decision fatigue."

“They (the industries that fuel the wedding industry) have a vested interest in keeping us longing.”

"The pandemic shrunk people’s world...It gave an interesting window into what happens when we have less access to the outside world, and we are more tuned into what we feel inside and what’s important to us.” 

“Any life transition, any phase of life change, any milestone always has an associated element of loss…because we are leaving something behind.”

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Episode 13: Award-winning neuroscientist Zoe Donaldson explains her research on how romantic bonds in prairie voles are encoded in the brain. She specifically looks at what happens the moment a prairie vole decides to reunite with its partner over another.

Dr. Zoe Donaldson is an Associate Professor of Neuroscience at the University of Colorado Boulder where she is the recipient of the NIH New Innovator and the NSF CAREER awards, among others. She joined the faculty after completing a Ph.D. in Neuroscience from Emory University and pursuing post-doctoral training at Columbia University. She studies how close social bonds, such as those that mediate friendships and romantic love, are encoded in the brain. In order to understand the cells and molecules that make bonding possible, her lab uses monogamous prairie voles. Unlike rats and mice, these rodents forms lifelong pair bonds between mates akin to human romantic partnerships. By examining the neurobiology underlying these bonds and what happens when they are lost, she hopes to identify novel treatments for psychiatric and neurodevelopmental disorders. This interview takes place in her office (apologies in advance for less than ideal sound quality) following a tour of her lab.
 

Learn more about Dr. Donaldson through her lab or here

In this episode, (in order) we talked about…

*Desire versus motivation 

*The role of the nucleus accumbens (part of the brain involved in choices) in longing

*Why prairie voles are used for their ability to create lifelong bonds with their mating partners

*Why her lab compares friendships to romantic partner bonds in voles

*What’s happening in the brain when a prairie vole decides to run to reunite with its partner over a different vole

*One scientist studying the genetics of cheating prairie voles vs faithful ones

*How her 1st opportunity to design her own experiment contributed to her interest in studying motivation in the brain

*What happens in the voles’ brain when they aren’t given access to their partner

*The debate on pathologizing grief

*What if we could train our brain to adapt better to grief just as we can to overcome phobias

Quotes:

“Longing is the motivation to have something what you want you can’t have immediately.”

“The stronger the bond, the more cells that are active as they are making that decision to approach their partner.” 

“Instead of asking, 'Is it stressful to lose your partner?' because the answer is yes, let’s focus on what makes grief different that any other stressful or traumatic experience."

“The National Institute of Health defines loss as a state of deprivation from a motivationally significant person or thing.”

“We can grieve things we never had.”

“Yearning is the core feature of grief….And we know that biologically, there is something specifically different about yearning because the behavioral therapies and pharmacotherapies that are efficacious in treating major depression don’t do anything to touch yearning related symptoms and grief. "

“Yearning is a state of frustration that emerges from having a desire that is unfulfilled.”

“They start to get dopamine released when they press the lever, in anticipation of the reward they are about to get. They get more dopamine released when they reunite with their partner than they do with the novel vole. So, there’s some part of the brain that says, your partner is really rewarding, you get extra dopamine when you try to reunite with them.”

“I don’t think love addiction is a medically relevant term, but there are instances when attachments can become unhealthy.”